Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
oh, nina-- i'm so sorry. this is the first time i've had the computer up in more than a day--glorious thunderstorms all day yesterday, so i believe that grace is at the bridge as i write this. all GLOW to her to find her way safely, and to heal your heart... i really liked the illusion of a great heart being able to break time and time again, and still have room to love again. someone said once that the pain we feel when they leave is their little claws digging their permanent, forever place in our hearts. i've done things every way there is--holding on too long for ME, rather than for them (i don't do that anymore, tho it's easier in ways to do so), having the vet come to the house (my preferred way when the cat needs my help to cross), rushing a kitty to the emergency vet at 4 in the morning when they are clearly suffering, holding their paw as they consciously let go, holding them in my arms, against my heart, even after their spirits are long gone but they haven't quite been able to leave their bodies behind; i've begged them to let go and go home, i've begged the universe to let them stay with me, i've wanted to scream to the vet, no! what if i'm wrong, what if it's not really time?, i've gone to get the valium to help them relax only to return to find they'd gone on without me; i've held them in my arms when that's what they seemed to want, and let them be alone when that's what they wanted--tho that is the HARDEST for me, to respect their need to transition in their own space; i've done mouth-to-snout resuscitation i have learned to listen to them, knowing that they are much wiser about the cycles of life than i will ever be. i make sure they know how much i love them, that i will ALWAYS love them, i thank them for sharing their lives with me, and i tell them they are free to go when it is time. i ask them to tell me if they need my help; i talk to them about their kittenhoods, and how much fun we've had together, and how, at the bridge, they will have young healthy bodies again and can do all the things the current body can't do any longer... . i DO believe that euthanasia is often the final gift that we can give them in return for all they have given us--the most profound thing i've ever been told is that it's better to send them home one day too soon than 10 minutes too late. sometimes the act of leaving the body behind is soft and quiet and gentle, sometimes it is not--when it is clear that their time here is at an end, i cannot let them suffer. i just have nothing more to say; i ache for you, and rejoice for grace's freedom from pain. MC -- MaryChristine AIM / YAHOO: TenHouseCats MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 289856892
Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I just want to know what to expect. I'm thinking of calling a house call vet to see if he can come today, but I don't want this to be harder on Grace. I'm still struggling with the thought that my underlying motives might be to make things easier on me. I just want to do what's right for Grace. My judgement is clouded, my mind and heart are clouded as well. I don't even have the energy to read this post over to see if it makes sense. Thanks for always caring, Nina
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle
RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, I am so, so, sorry about you losing Grace. I think you are right, in thinking that she feels it is time to go. I think she is turning away from you to spare both of you more pain. I have had to euthanize very thin cats as well and there has never been a problem. The tranquilizer has always gone in gently and then they just relax, sometimes sleep and sometimes cross at that time as well. I always hold them as well and then put them gently on a towel or blanket. Again, I am so sorry about your pain and sadness. Joan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 AM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I just want to know what to expect. I'm thinking of calling a house call vet to see if he can come today, but I don't want
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, My heart goes out to you - this is such a difficult time. I would ask Grace what she wants - to go on her own or to be assisted. If she asks for assistance, then I would also ask her if she wants someone new to come now, or if she wants to wait for her vet Dr.Ortega. Please know that we all love and support you, no matter what course of action is decided on. We've walked the same path and we will walk with you too. I, too, have not posted very much over this last year - way too much stuff going on, sapping my spirit - but I do read, and I do pray for everyone on this list, and I have followed your posts about Grace. Kat (Mew Jersey) On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Nina wrote: Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:18:15 -0700 From: Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Thank you Joan for sharing you experience. I think I may call the housecall vet. I've never felt so indecisive in my life. It's amazing how such a sweet, loving little soul can stir up such despair. N Doljan, Joan wrote: Nina, I am so, so, sorry about you losing Grace. I think you are right, in thinking that she feels it is time to go. I think she is turning away from you to spare both of you more pain. I have had to euthanize very thin cats as well and there has never been a problem. The tranquilizer has always gone in gently and then they just relax, sometimes sleep and sometimes cross at that time as well. I always hold them as well and then put them gently on a towel or blanket. Again, I am so sorry about your pain and sadness. Joan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 AM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot.Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michelle,Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble.N[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. MichelleBarb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito"My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."- Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Hello Kat, Thank you for your kindness. I did talk to an AC about Grace. She did say that it would be okay to help her cross. This was, can it be, just yesterday morning? When she asked Grace what her sign to me would be when she was ready, Grace told her When she's sees the pain in my eyes - believe it. She also said in regard to whomever helps her cross, that they be sensitive, respectful... that they not treat her like an object. N Kat wrote: Nina, My heart goes out to you - this is such a difficult time. I would ask Grace what she wants - to go on her own or to be assisted. If she asks for assistance, then I would also ask her if she wants someone new to come now, or if she wants to wait for her vet Dr.Ortega. Please know that we all love and support you, no matter what course of action is decided on. We've walked the same path and we will walk with you too. I, too, have not posted very much over this last year - way too much stuff going on, sapping my spirit - but I do read, and I do pray for everyone on this list, and I have followed your posts about Grace. Kat (Mew Jersey) On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Nina wrote: Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:18:15 -0700 From: Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Hello, Barb, thank you. What does parenterally mean exactly? Is that subq, IM? N Barb Moermond wrote: Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot. */Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile. - Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
I had to look up the exact meaning myself http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parenteral it's an injection into the abdomen, but not into any organ within the abdomen Ninja winced a bit with the initial needle entry, but that was it. Unfortunately, she was so ill, intestinal lymphoma, that her system wasn't absorbing the drug efficiently and a 2nd injection was required - but she didn't notice that at all, she was mostly gone. I think it is a gentler way for many creatures who wouldn't tolerate an IV.Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Barb, thank you. What does "parenterally" mean exactly? Is that subq, IM?NBarb Moermond wrote: Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot. */Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito "My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile." - Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito"My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."- Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time. CherieBarb Moermond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot.Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michelle,Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble.N[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. MichelleBarb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito"My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile." - Anonymous Yahoo! for GoodClick here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Have a purrfect day Cherie
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Thanks Cherie, I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me in tomorrow at 9:30. I know you all know how this feels. The final moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to try. How can a heart break over and over again? N Cherie A Gabbert wrote: Nina, That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time. Cherie */Barb Moermond [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot. */Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile. - Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. /Have a purrfect day/ /Cherie/ //
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Because your heart is big enough and flexible enough to love over and over again.Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Cherie,I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me in tomorrow at 9:30. I know you all know how this feels. The final moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to try. How can a heart break over and over again?NCherie A Gabbert wrote: Nina, That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time. Cherie */Barb Moermond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot. */Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito "My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile." - Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. /Have a purrfect day/ /Cherie/ // Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito"My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile."- Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Hi all, I'm going through this same thing and am so grateful for all the experience and calmness on this subject. And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how you are feeling the same way. My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying. His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow. He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on our bedroom floor under a window. He's stopped eating, and stopped drinking too I think.He can't really walk more than one or two steps. My husband and I had this strong feeling that at least for now he wants to be here but it's a little tough to sit with. MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3 yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling it for now too. Janine Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Thank you Janine for letting me know what's going on with you and MacKenzie. The picture you paint makes me see your MacKenzie as if he's in front of my eyes, and not just in my mind. Your sharing this with us, somehow makes me feel a little less alone. I'm so torn about this decision. Maybe it's because my decision with my sweet, beautiful Angel Jazz was so sudden, so unreasonably unexpected I thought I was growing wiser, but I've never been so torn and indecisive in my life. N janine paton wrote: Hi all, I'm going through this same thing and am so grateful for all the experience and calmness on this subject. And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how you are feeling the same way. My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying. His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow. He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on our bedroom floor under a window. He's stopped eating, and stopped drinking too I think.He can't really walk more than one or two steps. My husband and I had this strong feeling that at least for now he wants to be here but it's a little tough to sit with. MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3 yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling it for now too. Janine
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, A Grace and all our furrbabies heal the broken hearts, then when they leave us they tend to break all over again...Are they going to come to your house, so you do not have to move her? Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Cherie,I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me in tomorrow at 9:30. I know you all know how this feels. The final moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to try. How can a heart break over and over again?NCherie A Gabbert wrote: Nina, That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time. Cherie */Barb Moermond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot. */Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito "My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile." - Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. /Have a purrfect day/ /Cherie/ // Have a purrfect day Cherie
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Janine, I am sorry to hear about MacKenzie, it is so hard and hurts so much, be strong for him, he needs you now. Cheriejanine paton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm going through this same thing and am so gratefulfor all the experience and calmness on this subject. And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how youare feeling the same way.My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying. His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow.He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on ourbedroom floor under a window. He's stopped eating,and stopped drinking too I think. He can't reallywalk more than one or two steps. My husband and I had this strong feeling that at leastfor now he wants to be here but it's a little tough tosit with. MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling itfor now too. Janine Nina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her". During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I just want
Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina wrote: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Dear Nina, You would want the vet to be VERY CAREFUL. One of my positive kitties, my beloved little shy golden turkish angora kitty, Katyusha, had a very painful death - I think - because she was so emaciated that when the vet injected her with the tranqulizer, she screamed out in pain. This was her last conscious memory. This haunts me to this very day. Bonnie in WI
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, my heart breaks for you. I have been through the same situation recently with my Bubba and I know watching them leave is harder than actually losing them. I felt so guilty when he died for having feelings of relief when it was over. Seeing our babies suffer from this terrible disease is horrendous. I truly felt Bubba wanted to leave own his own so I did what I could to make him comfortable and waited. I think if he is as stubborn as Bubba he will want to do it in his own time. My prayers are with you. Sheila
RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Oh Nina, I'm so sad for you and Gracie. It's so painful for you to watch her fade away. I have never been able to let mine go without intervention. I just couldn't stomach it, thinking they were suffering while I stood by helplessly--but I would much prefer that I could, and that they could cross over peacefully and without intervention. Just having an extra person involved, with all the invasive procedure that goes with it, must be so stressful for the little souls, and much more so when it's at the vet office and not at home. Ultimately, dear Nina, I know you will follow your instinct and do what you think is right, so it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. I will add, though, that on 3 of the 4 occasions I arranged euthanization I had sympathetic and sensitive vets. One time I did not (Levi), and it haunted me for months that his last moments were so full of fear. So I highly recommened that if you do euthanize, the vet is someone you know and totally trust in EVERY sense. It makes all the difference. You and Gracie are constantly in my thoughts. I'm glad you are able to be with her. much love and big, big hugs, Kerryxxx -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:30 AM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace Thank you Janine for letting me know what's going on with you and MacKenzie. The picture you paint makes me see your MacKenzie as if he's in front of my eyes, and not just in my mind. Your sharing this with us, somehow makes me feel a little less alone. I'm so torn about this decision. Maybe it's because my decision with my sweet, beautiful Angel Jazz was so sudden, so unreasonably unexpected I thought I was growing wiser, but I've never been so torn and indecisive in my life. N janine paton wrote: Hi all, I'm going through this same thing and am so grateful for all the experience and calmness on this subject. And Nina, I don't feel so crazy since reading how you are feeling the same way. My cat MacKenzie is not positive, but he is dying. His breathing is mostly quieter now, but very shallow. He's not hiding at all but has picked a spot on our bedroom floor under a window. He's stopped eating, and stopped drinking too I think.He can't really walk more than one or two steps. My husband and I had this strong feeling that at least for now he wants to be here but it's a little tough to sit with. MacKenzie has been a homeopathic patient for the 3 yrs he's been with us, so that's how were handling it for now too. Janine hr IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor hr This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina..I am crying so hard - and almost cant read your writings on email.. but just reading from the title and know how you are, I know exactly what you are going through right now - I am so sorry...I don't want Gracie to go --- but I do have to tell you one thing what George told me via Jasmine after he passed.. he said to me don't cry we don't think of death in the same way as we do.. I was not afraid.. and believe me it's not the worst thing it could happen.. I am feeling fabulous now.. and I so would like to meet again with you... maybe not in this life time.. but when I meet next time.. I would like to meet in a different circumstances (he is referring to the fact that he had a physical limitations (liver problem and FIV) and the fact that he was confined in a crate for a long time.. When I had to let go Oliver (if you remember) what they did was - the vet put the IV needle first on him without anything in it.. so that I can hold him after they set it up.. then,,, they injected whatever it is afterwards..it was very peaceful in a sort of way.. no pain... it was just sad on my end because I did not want him to go.. Nina... I know it's hard to think this way.. this is not the end for Gracie.. she is going to have peaceful and painless life waiting for her after this please call me if you want to talk.. PS, have you talked to Jasmine and Gracie? Hideyo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:18 AM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Bonnie, This was one of my concerns. I'm so sorry you had this experience, but because of it, you may be helping others, you're certainly helping me. I know how hard it is to forgive ourselves when these things happen. Your intentions were loving and I know that Katyusha knows this too. I'm positive that she feels there is nothing to forgive, please try to let go of it for her sake, as well as your own. She doesn't want your thoughts and memories of her to be clouded with such harsh feelings. She loves you still and wants you only to smile when you think of her. It's never easy making these kind of decisions. I still don't know what I'm going to do. I have the appointment set for tomorrow. I guess I'll have to wait till then to decide if we go or not. Thanks Bonnie, N BONNIE J KALMBACH wrote: Nina wrote: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Dear Nina, You would want the vet to be VERY CAREFUL. One of my positive kitties, my beloved little shy golden turkish angora kitty, Katyusha, had a very painful death - I think - because she was so emaciated that when the vet injected her with the tranqulizer, she screamed out in pain. This was her last conscious memory. This haunts me to this very day. Bonnie in WI
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
This goes for you as well Kerry. You never told me the full circumstances of what happened with Levi, but I know it was horrendous for both of you. You're too kind and loving a person to dwell on what happened. What can we do, but move on and learn from life's hard lessons the best we can. Now if only my wisdom would kick in and help with my present circumstance. I do want you all to know, I am, at least for the moment, feeling calmer. Grace is still resting comfortably. I brought her from the garage, incredibly, she has chosen the same spot as Jazz did in her last days, (incredible, because neither one of them ever went to that spot before they were in the process of dieing), anyway, when I brought her outside, she licked the cement, tell me that doesn't clutch at my heart, and laid down again. Using an eyedropper, I gave her some watery chicken broth with a couple of drops of Pet Tinic in it. She only got a couple of drops, she pulls her face away from me and doesn't want to swallow. I brought her into the computer room and put her in her bed on my desk. I was rewarded by her twisting her head, you know, that twist they do with their head and the body sort of rolls after it into a comfortable position? She stayed on the desk for only a few minutes, falling into one of those disconcerting sleeps with her eyes wide open, maybe it was too warm for her in the morning sun. She started up and looked down at the floor. I helped her down and she's been lying on her side, then up into the stiff-down-upright position. I hate that she's so at dis-ease in her body. Sorry, I'm rambling again, N Nina wrote: Bonnie, This was one of my concerns. I'm so sorry you had this experience, but because of it, you may be helping others, you're certainly helping me. I know how hard it is to forgive ourselves when these things happen. Your intentions were loving and I know that Katyusha knows this too. I'm positive that she feels there is nothing to forgive, please try to let go of it for her sake, as well as your own. She doesn't want your thoughts and memories of her to be clouded with such harsh feelings. She loves you still and wants you only to smile when you think of her. It's never easy making these kind of decisions. I still don't know what I'm going to do. I have the appointment set for tomorrow. I guess I'll have to wait till then to decide if we go or not. Thanks Bonnie, N BONNIE J KALMBACH wrote: Nina wrote: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Dear Nina, You would want the vet to be VERY CAREFUL. One of my positive kitties, my beloved little shy golden turkish angora kitty, Katyusha, had a very painful death - I think - because she was so emaciated that when the vet injected her with the tranqulizer, she screamed out in pain. This was her last conscious memory. This haunts me to this very day. Bonnie in WI
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, I am sorry. This is so awful for you and her to have to go through this. If you do euthanize at some point, maybe you can give her some oral valium first, the way you did earlier, so that she is more relaxed for the process? While she does sound uncomfortable, she does not sound like she is in any kind of excruciating distress. Have you tried steroids to make her feel better? Dexamethasone? It often really perks them up, even close to the end. Michelle
RE: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Title: Message Nina, the valium--or tranx anyway--Michelle recommends sounds a good idea. My vet gave Flavia and Snowball a sedative, to relax the little souls. I didn't know it was an option until then. I wish I'd known about it for Levi. hugs, kerry -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:03 PMTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgSubject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace Nina, I am sorry. This is so awful for you and her to have to go through this. If you do euthanize at some point, maybe you can give her some oral valium first, the way you did earlier, so that she is more relaxed for the process? While she does sound uncomfortable, she does not sound like she is in any kind of excruciating distress. Have you tried steroids to make her feel better? Dexamethasone? It often really perks them up, even close to the end. Michelle =00IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
I am not sure it is about bravery. It does take bravery to be with someone as they die a natural death. But I think that the hardest thing I ever did in my life was to euthanize my horse Shire. If I had felt it would be ok, or fair, to him, it would have been easier for me, i think, to just stay with him while he went on his own. But because of the particular problem he had, it was going to be an extremely traumatic and painful thing for him. But in that case euthanasia took more bravery (also the bravery of knowing I would always hate myself for doing the euthanasia, and I always have). It really just comes down to trying as hard as possible to be honest with yourself about what the animal can bear, and trying not to confuse it with what you can bear. I am not sure it is possible to do that, to be able to separate the things so purely, but that is what I try to do, and I think that allows you to make the best decision. I am so sorry. Michelle In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:31:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michelle,Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble.N
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
I made that decision with my Butch. It is very hard, but I firmly believe that when they have given up there is no need for anything to be dragged out. I almost wish people could have the option of euthanasia because I know some would take it. Butch was having trouble breathing and had lost weight from not eating. The vet I took him to was very nice and good with both of us. They didn't seem to have any problems and everything was over very quickly and peacefully. If this is the decision you make, it will be the right one for both of you, and you certainly have the thoughts support from everyone here. RachelNina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Beloved Group,First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her". During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here.Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again.Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I just want to know what to expect. I'm thinking of calling a house call vet to see if he can come today, but I don't want this to be harder on Grace. I'm still struggling with the thought that my underlying motives might be to make things easier on me. I just want to do what's right for Grace. My judgement is clouded, my mind and heart
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
I know I am posting this late. Darling Nina, the decision to euthanize is a personal one, but I will tell you my thoughts. If Grace told you through the AC that she was okay with euthanasia, and if you know that she is not going to get better, and she has asked to leave, then I would euthanize. I have hated each decision we have had to make regarding euthanasia. If the 6 cats I've lost since 1996, all but 2 of them were euthanized because that is what they wanted. I wanted them to stay with me forever, but I saw the suffering that they were going through, and I started to feel selfish about keeping them here. Each time I have had to do this, I have been with my furkid. Each passing was smooth, peaceful, and pain free. Each time is just as emotionally painful for me and Dan as the time before, but we have never regretted our decision. When they're that sick, I am of the opinion that euthanasia is the last, final loving act that we can give them. Only you can be the one to come to terms with what you are going to do. Listen to Grace. She will let you know when (and if) she is ready. Great big hugs to you. =^..^= Terri, Siggie the Tomato Vampire, Guinevere, Sammi, Travis, and 5 furangels: RuthieGirl, Samantha, Arielle, Gareth, Alec Salome' =^..^= Furkid Photos! http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7sgqa/My FeLV Site: http://pages.ivillage.com/ruthiegirl1/MyFeLVinformationSite/My Personal Page: http://www.geocities.com/ruthiegirl1/terrispage.html?1083970447350 - Original Message - From: Nina To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 AM Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace My Beloved Group,First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her". During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worrie
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, I can't help you decide, but my thoughts are with you. I don't personally believe in euthanasia, but I came very close with TeeCee this spring. It's tough... With Care, Steph
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
My vet has been able to do it with no problem at all. It takes a skilled and loving, caring soul to do that. She may be upset that you are looking at the situation as a death bed vigil instead of a time to remember, together and in body, all the good times and love you have shared. She may be pulling away because of this and maybe she thinks it will make it easier for you. They will often stay long past the time they want to leave because of the pain they know it will cause their person. Mai Mai and Ebony both stayed for me. It is not that you want her to leave--it is that you want her to be free to leave or stay as she knows best. It may be that she needs to leave this earth at home instead of at the vet's. I can not answer but pose the questions for you to consider. Bless you and bless her. Let both of your angels guide you. They will if you ask. - Original Message - From: Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:18 AM Subject: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
A heart that is full of love can break in infinite number of times. A hard heart might break once. - Original Message - From: Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace Thanks Cherie, I just called my Internist's office and they will be able to squeeze me in tomorrow at 9:30. I know you all know how this feels. The final moment, the realization that there's nothing left to do, nothing left to try. How can a heart break over and over again? N Cherie A Gabbert wrote: Nina, That is true just the shot would be so much better can you make an appointment for Friday, so at least you have some more good bye time. Cherie */Barb Moermond [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Nina, I'm so sorry you're going through this right now, it's so hard. If you're worried about them finding a vein, you could request that they inject her parenterally, that's how my vet helped Ninja - no worried or stress about finding a vein and using an IV, just a shot. */Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile. - Anonymous Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. /Have a purrfect day/ /Cherie/ //
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Hi Nina, I am so sorry to hear that Grace isn't responding...It is such a difficult decision to make, but like we all know...you will know the time and the signs...maybe it is a sign that your regular vet isn't here until Fri...for you to keep giving her the treats...and maybe that will give her some strength to eat something...I don't know if this will help, but if you have some dex give her some..it can relieve any pain/inflammation if she is having any... Our thoughts and prayers are with you and Grace. Kerry and Bandy[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Send Felvtalk mailing list submissions toFelvtalk@felineleukemia.orgTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visithttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orgor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to[EMAIL PROTECTED]You can reach the person managing the list at[EMAIL PROTECTED]When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of Felvtalk digest..."Today's Topics:1. Sulphur ([EMAIL PROTECTED])2. Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace (Rachel)3. Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace (Terri Brown)--Message: 1Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:29:29 EDTFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: SulphurTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"Yes please Hideyo - thanksJust out of interest - did you get the full thyroid test done or the basic test?Michelle, Minstrel, Buddy Angel Bramble-- next part --An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: /pipermail/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org/attachments/20050922/d34834cc/attachment.htm--Message: 2Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:34:26 -0700 (PDT)From: Rachel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my GraceTo: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"I made that decision with my Butch.It is very hard, but I firmly believe that when they have given up there is no need for anything to be dragged out. I almost wish people could have the option of euthanasia because I know some would take it.Butch was having trouble breathing and had lost weight from not eating. The vet I took him to was very nice and good with both of us.They didn't seem to have any problems and everything was over very quickly and peacefully.If this is the decision you make, it will be the right one for both of you, and you certainly have the thoughts support from everyone here.RachelNina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:My Beloved Group,First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels.Yesterday morning Gracie "told" me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just "be with her". During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though.I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, my heart goes out to you, I am so sorry for your pain. These are such difficult, important, and soul-searching questions. I can only answer of course from my own experience, but want to mention that homeopathy also has ways of supporting the one who is about to pass on, so you might talk to your homeopath. I agree, I have always interpreted with animals and people, when they won't take the food or liquid out of the syringe or dropper, it's time for them to move to a different level. I usually allow my loved ones to move at their own speed, unless there seems to be pain or other difficulty. I really don't know how difficult it is to euthanize an emaciated animal - but they will pass on gently on their own. And, it's not hard to ask your vet about a simple sedative for Grace if you feel that's appropriate, and your dear Grace could remain at home. Also, again, a good contact might be the homeopath, to give you gentle suggestions on how to help Grace with making the transition. Let us know, we all are with you as you help her with this passage. Blessings, Gloria On Sep 22, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Nina wrote: My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
There are Bach essences and other aids for the person too. Check with your homeopath/health food store etc for recommendations for you and your grieving process. They help. Honest. They do not make the hurt go away. Don't think that. They do make it easier to deal with. If there is no pain on losing a loved one, you did not truly love. - Original Message - From: Gloria Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace Nina, my heart goes out to you, I am so sorry for your pain. These are such difficult, important, and soul-searching questions. I can only answer of course from my own experience, but want to mention that homeopathy also has ways of supporting the one who is about to pass on, so you might talk to your homeopath. I agree, I have always interpreted with animals and people, when they won't take the food or liquid out of the syringe or dropper, it's time for them to move to a different level. I usually allow my loved ones to move at their own speed, unless there seems to be pain or other difficulty. I really don't know how difficult it is to euthanize an emaciated animal - but they will pass on gently on their own. And, it's not hard to ask your vet about a simple sedative for Grace if you feel that's appropriate, and your dear Grace could remain at home. Also, again, a good contact might be the homeopath, to give you gentle suggestions on how to help Grace with making the transition. Let us know, we all are with you as you help her with this passage. Blessings, Gloria On Sep 22, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Nina wrote: My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
I personally think Euthanasia of pets is wrong. We shouldn't have the power to take an innocent life. Only God has that power. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:15:40 EDT I am not sure it is about bravery. It does take bravery to be with someone as they die a natural death. But I think that the hardest thing I ever did in my life was to euthanize my horse Shire. If I had felt it would be ok, or fair, to him, it would have been easier for me, i think, to just stay with him while he went on his own. But because of the particular problem he had, it was going to be an extremely traumatic and painful thing for him. But in that case euthanasia took more bravery (also the bravery of knowing I would always hate myself for doing the euthanasia, and I always have). It really just comes down to trying as hard as possible to be honest with yourself about what the animal can bear, and trying not to confuse it with what you can bear. I am not sure it is possible to do that, to be able to separate the things so purely, but that is what I try to do, and I think that allows you to make the best decision. I am so sorry. Michelle In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:31:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
I have to say, I'm with you on that - Euthanizing my horse Whatsie was the hardest thing I ever did and gave me much of my present perspective on euthanasia. Gloria -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:15:40 EDT I am not sure it is about bravery. It does take bravery to be with someone as they die a natural death. But I think that the hardest thing I ever did in my life was to euthanize my horse Shire. If I had felt it would be ok, or fair, to him, it would have been easier for me, i think, to just stay with him while he went on his own. But because of the particular problem he had, it was going to be an extremely traumatic and painful thing for him. But in that case euthanasia took more bravery (also the bravery of knowing I would always hate myself for doing the euthanasia, and I always have). It really just comes down to trying as hard as possible to be honest with yourself about what the animal can bear, and trying not to confuse it with what you can bear. I am not sure it is possible to do that, to be able to separate the things so purely, but that is what I try to do, and I think that allows you to make the best decision. I am so sorry. Michelle In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:31:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michelle, Thank you so much for answering my post. When I was struggling with gathering the energy it took to actually write, I was thinking of you. I wanted your opinion about this. I wish I were braver. Funny, isn't it, I always think of myself as strong and brave, but when it comes to this... I just feel helpless and humble. N
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
Nina, I'm so sorry. I can say that as animals lose weight it does make it more difficult to find a vein. My vet can find a vein in a potato, but it sounds like your favorite vet is not available. Make sure that whoever you decide on sedates her first. Also, do NOT let them take her away from you to find a vein. I learned that the hard way. God bless you both, and I hope things go peacefully for you both. I'm thinking about you. I hope support from this list helps a bit. I'm so, so sorry. tonya --- Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Beloved Group, First of all, I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate fully in the group this last couple of weeks. I love you all, but for the last couple of days, I haven't even been able bring myself to read the posts. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted by Grace and my last efforts to bring her back to health. Yesterday, I finally resigned myself to thinking of our time together as 'death bed vigil'. Those of you that know me, know that I pray all your babies are safe and healthy, and those that are losing, or have lost the battle; my love is with you. I don't know what I would have done without the love and support of this group. You have been a Godsend to me and my sweet fur angels. Yesterday morning Gracie told me she does not want to stay. Among other signs, I was syringe feeding her and she refused to swallow. I'm trying my best to make peace with her decision. I know you understand. She hasn't eaten on her own for a long time now and she's skin and bones. She spent a nice peaceful day, and I did my best to just be with her. During the afternoon she made it clear that she didn't want to be sung to, or touched. It's so hard on me to watch her pull away. At one point, she seemed a bit agitated so I ground up a tiny bit of Valium and gave it to her in water. She was so relaxed she even did a stretch-semi roll out on the patio in the sun. She did something that startled me, and got my hopes up again. (I just can't stop believing in miracles). I was giving the dogs treats and she was laying on the couch. Well, we have this thing Grace and I. Whenever the dogs get treats she'd come bounding over the barrier and expect one too. When she saw me giving the dogs treats this afternoon, she jumped off the couch. I started to cry, because I thought, there's no way she's going to take a treat. I put one in front of her anyway and you could have knocked me over with a sigh. It took her a minute to decide to eat it, but she not only ate that one, but 3 more. Then she ate 3 or 4 pieces of kibble! My hopes were short lived though. I've been up with her most of the night. She still doesn't want my attention. She doesn't even want me to look at her, it's breaking my heart to say goodbye, and I guess it may be making it harder for her to go, although that is not my intention. It's not like I don't want her to leave her body, I do. I want her suffering to be over. Yesterday, when I knew it was time, I called my Internist's office to see if Dr. Ortega would be willing to help her cross. Grace has always liked Dr. Ortega, and I thought she would be calmest with her. Well, my Internist isn't going to be in the office until Friday. It doesn't seem possible that Grace will still be here by then. My stance has always been, that when I know it's the end, when I know that the chance of a recovery after treatment isn't possible, then it's time to help them cross. Even though Grace is peaceful, (she just lays on her side and breathes shallow, but relaxed breaths), I have a hard time letting nature take it's course. It's arrogant of me, but I can't stand seeing her like this. I'm also so worried about her being in pain, when I look in her eyes, she doesn't seem in pain, but she doesn't seem like herself either. I wouldn't mind vacant, but it's almost like she's... not quite angry, more like annoyed to still be here. Just to let you know... Over the past week or so, I think I may have mentioned it, we've been following an extensive homeopathic regime with the help of a practitioner named Darla Palmer. While it didn't save Grace, it did bring her back into her body, and for brief glorious moments, back to me. It was such a joy to see the Grace I know and love shining out of her eyes again. Anyway, here's my question: Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to put an animal to sleep in an emaciated condition? Of course, I don't want to make things harder on her, I want to ease her suffering. What if they can't find a vein, because they're so small? I just want to know what to expect. I'm thinking of calling a house call vet to see if he can come today, but I don't want this to be harder on Grace. I'm still struggling with the thought that my underlying motives might be to
Re: Question about Euthanasia and my Grace
I may be wrong about the weight being the issue about finding a vein, but if Grace is anemic, that too can cause a problem with it. tonya --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina, I am so sorry. I do not think lack of fat makes veins smaller or harder to find, so though I may be wrong, I do not think that should be a concern. You know how I am, though, I do not think I would do it at all since she does not seem to be in active pain. I do think the annoyed look she has probably has to do with discomfort of some sort-- I have seen most of them get like that toward the end (Simon was like that both times that I thought he was dying). I personally would probably just keep giving her little bits of valium if it made her feel good and stretch in the sun and want a dog treat. At least until things got worse. And you could try to wait for the vet she likes then, at least. Anyway, that is just me, and how I do things. I know that we are all different with death. And I have not always thought that I did the right thing, either. Michelle
