Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 23:37 +, Lee Elliott wrote: > On Thursday 05 Jan 2006 22:46, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > > Martin Spott wrote: > > >Hello Durk, > > > > > >Durk Talsma wrote: > > >>I still haven't firmly decided how ATC should interact with > > >> AI traffic, but that these systems should be integrated has > > >> always been part of my overarching design plan. Since my AI > > >> developments are based on extending the AIModels code, this > > >> would naturally move toward a fully integrated system. > > > > > >To me it's obvious why MP and AI are partially going to be > > > merged some day, because both are 'exterior' sources of > > > aircraft movement from the FlightGear users' point of view. > > > If you think of integrating ATC with AI as well, then please > > > keep in mind that a special situation arises because we are > > > unlikely to convince AI aircraft to listen to 'human' ATC > > > :-) > > > > Also, who ever is developing and working on the MP and AI > > code: > > > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! > > > > Please consider users with multiple display channels driven > > from multiple computeres synced together over the network. > > > > Nothing is more embarassing (well maybe I shouldn't say > > nothing) than demoing the new sim software on a 6 screen > > visual system flightgear based simulator and having 6 > > independent ATC/Tower communications sessions going (one on > > each screen) and then having different airplanes appear on one > > screen and not on any of the others. > > > > Please consider some way to replicate the MP/AI traffic across > > multiple visual channels, perhaps slave from one master > > machine that communicates with the outside MP server. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Curt. > > I was just wondering if pigeon's FG map web-site could be adapted > to function as a radar and had started to think about how it > might be nice to include AI traffic as well when the problem of > inconsistent AI aircraft that you mentioned above occurred to > me:) My thoughts was to use the interface and code from air traffic controller (airtraf hereafter, I didn't want to re-use the acronym atc) (airtraffic.sf.net) for client. I don't believe that we want the atc server integrated into flightgear itself as the regional rules differ between countries and even perferred runway. I see it as airtraf-client optionally talks to airtraf-server which talks to fg-server and then to the appropriate users. Airtraf supposedly will function automatically when there are no human users connected. > Perhaps a possible solution would be for the MP server to > generate AI traffic and for local AI traffic to be switched off > when connected to an MP server. Better, might be for MP to be disabled if the player selects AI traffic. > > For the multi-system type set-up you're using for your 6 screen > configuration there would have to be some way of nominating one > of the systems to take on the MP AI role, with the remaining > systems treating it as an MP server. I'm not getting involved in this point as I feel I'm not suitably qualified. Anyway, I have emailed the project leader for his(??) opinion on the matter. If I get shouted down here, then so be it. :-P Regards --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
Durk Talsma wrote: Well I guess, a basic solution would be to have a master/slave mode for the AIModels subsystem, where the master computer does the "intelligent" AIModels work, and sends the resulting data across the network. The remaining computers, wouldn't have the AIModels system do anything, except process the incoming data. I don't think that this scenario would be impossible to implement, and has actually some attractive advantages (for example, the master AIModels computer could be configured to emphasize AImodels processing, at the cost of graphics display functions, it it were to be run on a system that was hooked up to the network, but not part of the display system). Like Dave, however, I don't have enough computer resource available to test this, so we would need to depend on a developer with the means to actually test this. Curt, I know how extremely busy you are, but would you be willing to test this, once we get to the point where this might become a reality? Sure I can do some testing. I now have pretty convenient access to a permanent multidisplay configuration. Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
John Wojnaroski wrote: > Not sure this is what you're looking for. > http://openatc.sourceforge.net/test/ > IIRC there were some discussions about an ATC program that would work > with the TNL libraries, and I seem to recall a project page on SF. But, > as noted, it seems to have vanished... Yep, I remember this discussion. What I have in mind is the screenshot of an old-style, round and green radar screen and I connect this to the xATC project but I'm no more that sure about it ;-) Thanks for your input, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Friday 06 January 2006 00:38, Dave Culp wrote: > On Thursday 05 January 2006 04:46 pm, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > > Also, who ever is developing and working on the MP and AI code: > > > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! > > > > Please consider users with multiple display channels driven from > > multiple computeres synced together over the network. > > I can consider it all I want, but unless I win the lottery I won't be able > to test this :) Maybe you'll just have to disable that stuff, or find a > developer who is able to test it. > > Dave > > Well I guess, a basic solution would be to have a master/slave mode for the AIModels subsystem, where the master computer does the "intelligent" AIModels work, and sends the resulting data across the network. The remaining computers, wouldn't have the AIModels system do anything, except process the incoming data. I don't think that this scenario would be impossible to implement, and has actually some attractive advantages (for example, the master AIModels computer could be configured to emphasize AImodels processing, at the cost of graphics display functions, it it were to be run on a system that was hooked up to the network, but not part of the display system). Like Dave, however, I don't have enough computer resource available to test this, so we would need to depend on a developer with the means to actually test this. Curt, I know how extremely busy you are, but would you be willing to test this, once we get to the point where this might become a reality? Cheers, Durk --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thursday 05 January 2006 23:44, Paul Surgeon wrote: > On Thursday 05 January 2006 21:13, Durk Talsma wrote: > > I haven't firmly > > decided yet, but I'm considering starting to tackle airway following > > code, which is in a way quite similar to the ground network. > > Now that would be amazing. No other desktop sim has AI flying realistic > flightplans along airways. The only other desktop FlightSim I know in fair detail is MSFS, and fact that all AI traffic follows straight point to point routes drives me nuts. Especially when Flying across continental Europe with the major project AI airlines packages installed, which results in major proximity alerts about every five minutes. There are still a few gotcha's to think about, to prevent "ridiculous routing", but the general idea is to find a way through the airway network stored in data/Navaids/awy.dat.gz in a way much similar to the trace algorithm used in src/Airports/groundnetwork.[ch]xx Once a good route is found, it can be stored in a cache directory on disk, so its' available for fast access. Cheers, Durk > > Of course we may not be flying airways in real life for much longer with > all the GPS and automated routing ideas floating around. > Maybe "GPS direct" isn't so far fetched after all. > > Paul > > > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thursday 05 January 2006 23:39, Karsten Krispin wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2006 23:32 schrieb Martin Spott: > > To me it's obvious why MP and AI are partially going to be merged some > > day, because both are 'exterior' sources of aircraft movement from the > > FlightGear users' point of view. If you think of integrating ATC with > > AI as well, then please keep in mind that a special situation arises > > because we are unlikely to convince AI aircraft to listen to 'human' > > ATC :-) > > Hi Martin, > > I don't believe that this is a problem at all. We can mask a aircraft as AI > so that a human controller knows, he has to command the aircraft only "by > text". Where "by text" means the command window - For lazy controllers this > windows also creates readable text messages when the command is for a human > pilot and sends this over network/whatever... > > Karsten > This is quite an interesting idea, although a bit speculative at the moment, because this is beyond the current stage of code development. One alternative possibility would be to work with separate scenarios: 1) Human Multiplayer, Human ATC only,, no AI traffic using voice comms; 2) Human Multiplayer, plus AI traffic, Using AI ATC, and predefined text messages; 3) AI traffic, only, plus AI ATC. More variations would be possible, but quite a bit more development needs to be done. Cheers, Durk --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On January 6, 2006 03:02 am, Martin Spott wrote: > You put then whole idea question just because you don't know who would > do the ATC ? Please don't answer the question with a question. Who's going to be the ATC? > Doing things right (TM) is always an appealing argument. The real world > has voice ATC communication, so doing things right would imply doing > the same in FlightGear as well. But "doing things right" is not the > point here. What are you talking about?! "Doing things right" has always been the point in FlightGear. Yes, the real world has voice ATC communication, and this does imply FlightGear should do the same. However, for the third time I am going to repeat this: it is going to be a useless feature. You don't have anyone being the ATC. Even if you do, there is not going to be enough "coverage", and one would end up relying on some text-based AI-ATC system at the end of the day. As some people have pointed out, the voice feature makes ATC communication easier. But where the heck is our ATC feature? Ampere --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Not sure this is what you're looking for. http://openatc.sourceforge.net/test/ IIRC there were some discussions about an ATC program that would work with the TNL libraries, and I seem to recall a project page on SF. But, as noted, it seems to have vanished... JW Martin Spott wrote: Oliver Schroeder wrote: On Thursday 05 January 2006 18:09, Martin Spott wrote: The software that I had in mind is "xATC". Although I still have a copy of the 1.3b release I have the impression that the project has closed. I'm not sure about the license. Do you have an URL to the project? I've been looking for the page but I have the impression it's already been removed. John W. might know if something's still present. You'll find a copy of the source code here (please remember that I'm not sure about the Copyright !): ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/Devel/xatc-1.3b.tar.gz Martin. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Oliver Schroeder wrote: > On Thursday 05 January 2006 18:09, Martin Spott wrote: >> The software that I had in mind is "xATC". Although I still have a copy >> of the 1.3b release I have the impression that the project has closed. >> I'm not sure about the license. > > Do you have an URL to the project? I've been looking for the page but I have the impression it's already been removed. John W. might know if something's still present. You'll find a copy of the source code here (please remember that I'm not sure about the Copyright !): ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/Devel/xatc-1.3b.tar.gz Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Martin Spott wrote: > > Doing things right (TM) is always an appealing argument. The real world > has voice ATC communication, so doing things right would imply doing > the same in FlightGear as well. But "doing things right" is not the > point here. In fact I know several people who use MSFS right because > there is the ability to do voice ATC, people who do flying in real life > as well. Personally I'm convinced we'll learn to run pretty quickly > once we have legs that also feature the "running" mode. Still another point: even if nobody intended to try and implement this stuff until much later, maybe it's worth considering now just to make sure that changes to the software between now and then don't make it *impossible* to implement later. In this case, "doing things right" may mean considering it now just enough to determine what architectural qualities must be preserved through the other code changes that occur, and thus what other contributed code should *not* do. -c --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
> be a useless feature (for quite a long time) -- who is going to be the ATC? > And let's not forget that a voice-based ATC would be incompatible with the AI > system that we have now, or would have in the future. I think it won't be useless. And it's fine to have one of the two enabled at the same time. Actually, right now when I am playing in a multiplayer setup I have the AI turned off, and when I am playing standalone, I turn them back on. I am sure that if we provide a usable interface w/voice we could invite more non-developers via the forums/r.a.simulators/r.a.piloting to work as ATC. I'd be happy to do it occasionally myself during free time. V. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On Friday 06 January 2006 09:02, Martin Spott wrote: > "Ampere K. Hardraade" wrote: > > I'm not saying FlightGear shouldn't do this. I'm saying that this is > > going to be a useless feature (for quite a long time) -- who is going to > > be the ATC? > > [...] > > > Learn to walk before you learn to run. Let's get things done right first > > before we try and do anything fancy. > > You put then whole idea question just because you don't know who would > do the ATC ? > > Doing things right (TM) is always an appealing argument. The real world > has voice ATC communication, so doing things right would imply doing > the same in FlightGear as well. But "doing things right" is not the > point here. In fact I know several people who use MSFS right because > there is the ability to do voice ATC, people who do flying in real life > as well. Personally I'm convinced we'll learn to run pretty quickly > once we have legs that also feature the "running" mode. I think we are mixing different situations here. "Voice" and "ATC" are connected, on the other hand we have three different situtions, which need to be considered: 1) one user environment This is probably most used environment. In this situation we have no human ATC operator and flightgear has to jump in and do it alone. In this case the ATC can be text driven, and perhaps be enhanced by a text to speech system. 2) multiuser environment (multiplayer) In this environment things get complicated. The easiest way is to have human ATC operators which use some kind of VOIP application as discussed. And I really think that we should provide the necessary infrastructure, in that we tell people what software to install and what to configure to get things done. This can be done without _any_ change to flightgear itself. It will probably attract people who are simply interrested in ATC and not necessarily to a flightsimulation. Obviously a human driven ATC will interfere with any local driven non-human ATC. So... 3) multiuser, part II Mixing human and artificial ATC is IMHO very difficult. Assume we have some human ATC operators which provide ATC service for KSFO. I guess, they won't be able to supply a 24h service. However, in that case we must disable the artificial ATC for KSFO, but enable it for all other airports, since the user might be connected to the virtual world, but not flying around KSFO. I guess it will be sufficient to assume that in a multiplayer environment we will either have human ATC operators, or no need for ATC because there are not many people around a given airport. So a user can decide to dis-/enable local ATC whenever he wants. Just my 2 eurocent, Oliver --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thursday 05 January 2006 23:32, Martin Spott wrote: > Hello Durk, > > Durk Talsma wrote: > > I still haven't firmly decided how ATC should interact with AI traffic, > > but that these systems should be integrated has always been part of my > > overarching design plan. Since my AI developments are based on extending > > the AIModels code, this would naturally move toward a fully integrated > > system. > > To me it's obvious why MP and AI are partially going to be merged some > day, because both are 'exterior' sources of aircraft movement from the > FlightGear users' point of view. If you think of integrating ATC with > AI as well, then please keep in mind that a special situation arises > because we are unlikely to convince AI aircraft to listen to 'human' > ATC :-) I would even go a step further: I would like to introduce a common case for a dynamic object in flightgear. An AImodel or an ATCthing or the original simulated aircraft should be such a thing. That way we could unify some stuff. Greetings Mathias -- Mathias Fröhlich, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
Hi, On Friday 06 January 2006 00:37, Lee Elliott wrote: > On Thursday 05 Jan 2006 22:46, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > > Also, who ever is developing and working on the MP and AI > > code: > > > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! > > > > Please consider users with multiple display channels driven > > from multiple computeres synced together over the network. > > > > Nothing is more embarassing (well maybe I shouldn't say > > nothing) than demoing the new sim software on a 6 screen > > visual system flightgear based simulator and having 6 > > independent ATC/Tower communications sessions going (one on > > each screen) and then having different airplanes appear on one > > screen and not on any of the others. > > > > Please consider some way to replicate the MP/AI traffic across > > multiple visual channels, perhaps slave from one master > > machine that communicates with the outside MP server. > > I was just wondering if pigeon's FG map web-site could be adapted > to function as a radar and had started to think about how it > might be nice to include AI traffic as well when the problem of > inconsistent AI aircraft that you mentioned above occurred to > me:) The problem with inconsistent AI objects should not exist. All we have to do is: make sure that there is only one source for every AI object. That means, that one instance of flightgear might feed 10 AI objects to the virtual world, but this instance is authorative for those objects. There are no other feeders for them. Although we might invent some failover mechanism, I think we shoot ourself in the head if we try to implement multiple feeders for one object and try to keep them in sync. > Perhaps a possible solution would be for the MP server to > generate AI traffic and for local AI traffic to be switched off > when connected to an MP server. In fact we could implement simple feeders which do nothing more then feeding some objects to the virtual world. But I would prefer to have a dedicated instance of flightgear to be the feeder, as it will reduce code replication. For ground objects (cars, trains whatever) the feeder will need terrain information, so why not use flightgear itself (without a visible user interface like openGL)? > For the multi-system type set-up you're using for your 6 screen > configuration there would have to be some way of nominating one > of the systems to take on the MP AI role, with the remaining > systems treating it as an MP server. From my (multiplayer) point of view, there is no change whatsoever regarding multi display configurations. One instance of flightgear does the communication with the virtual world (server) and feeds only views to the remaining systems just as it is now. regards, Oliver --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On Thursday 05 January 2006 18:09, Martin Spott wrote: > Oliver Schroeder wrote: > > A RADAR station can be implemented as a listener to the server, so the > > server sends information of aircrafts to the radar just as to any other > > client. Maybe I have to add some minor changes to the server code, but > > all in all it should be pretty simple to create a listener. > > Any volunteers to implement a RADAR, step forward! :) > > The software that I had in mind is "xATC". Although I still have a copy > of the 1.3b release I have the impression that the project has closed. > I'm not sure about the license. Do you have an URL to the project? > Another approach is this one: > > http://airtraffic.sourceforge.net/ > > Maybe someone wants to feed him real data :-) I put a note on my website, so this hint don't gets lost. cheers, Oliver --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:04:12 -0800 (PST), Trasca wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Hi all, > > Yesterday I was thinking to try to model the > plane that Curt suggested but I think implementing a > voice ATC is much more pliable on my actual skills > "good C/C++ & researching the net for components/API > that can help me in achieving a scope & integrating > the API/components & testing". So I am intersted in > start to work to this voice ATC for FlightGear. Of > course beeing new to FG maybe I am not seeing all the > implications and all the complexity of such a project > but it is intersting me a lot and I think I can > achieve the final scope ot it. > > Still I need initial points from you to start(like > similar systems in similar flight simulators + links > with resources that you think that can help me + links > with documentation. ..the voip|voice|speech side of it, or the ATC side of it? In the latter case, you'll find lotsa stuff on "how it should be done" and will be left with "implementing all that", in the former case you'll be choosing "how it should be done" and pick a way that fits into FG, there's _lotsa_ good stuff for Debian, which will only help frustrate you. ;o) ..you'll get more ideas in the thread, it's a good discussion. .."big time" ATC is also a multi seat and multi channel operation, with handovers of aircraft between ATC units. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
"Ampere K. Hardraade" wrote: > I'm not saying FlightGear shouldn't do this. I'm saying that this is going > to > be a useless feature (for quite a long time) -- who is going to be the ATC? [...] > Learn to walk before you learn to run. Let's get things done right first > before we try and do anything fancy. You put then whole idea question just because you don't know who would do the ATC ? Doing things right (TM) is always an appealing argument. The real world has voice ATC communication, so doing things right would imply doing the same in FlightGear as well. But "doing things right" is not the point here. In fact I know several people who use MSFS right because there is the ability to do voice ATC, people who do flying in real life as well. Personally I'm convinced we'll learn to run pretty quickly once we have legs that also feature the "running" mode. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On January 5, 2006 04:10 am, Martin Spott wrote: > Could you probably back this with an explanation ? Voice-based ATC is > done all over the world, why should'nt FlightGear do this as well ? > > Martin. I'm not saying FlightGear shouldn't do this. I'm saying that this is going to be a useless feature (for quite a long time) -- who is going to be the ATC? And let's not forget that a voice-based ATC would be incompatible with the AI system that we have now, or would have in the future. Learn to walk before you learn to run. Let's get things done right first before we try and do anything fancy. Ampere --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
"Curtis L. Olson" writes: > > Also, who ever is developing and working on the MP and AI code: > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! > :-) > Please consider users with multiple display channels driven from > multiple computeres synced together over the network. > > Nothing is more embarassing (well maybe I shouldn't say nothing) than > demoing the new sim software on a 6 screen visual system flightgear > based simulator and having 6 independent ATC/Tower communications > sessions going (one on each screen) and then having different airplanes > appear on one screen and not on any of the others. > ATC should be easy - simply disable it on all but one display. AI is more tricky - I guess ideally you would like the AI aircraft to pass seamlessly from one monitor to another as it crosses the FOV. Hmmm. Cheers - Dave --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thursday 05 January 2006 04:46 pm, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > Also, who ever is developing and working on the MP and AI code: > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! > > Please consider users with multiple display channels driven from > multiple computeres synced together over the network. I can consider it all I want, but unless I win the lottery I won't be able to test this :) Maybe you'll just have to disable that stuff, or find a developer who is able to test it. Dave --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thursday 05 Jan 2006 22:46, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > Martin Spott wrote: > >Hello Durk, > > > >Durk Talsma wrote: > >>I still haven't firmly decided how ATC should interact with > >> AI traffic, but that these systems should be integrated has > >> always been part of my overarching design plan. Since my AI > >> developments are based on extending the AIModels code, this > >> would naturally move toward a fully integrated system. > > > >To me it's obvious why MP and AI are partially going to be > > merged some day, because both are 'exterior' sources of > > aircraft movement from the FlightGear users' point of view. > > If you think of integrating ATC with AI as well, then please > > keep in mind that a special situation arises because we are > > unlikely to convince AI aircraft to listen to 'human' ATC > > :-) > > Also, who ever is developing and working on the MP and AI > code: > > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! > > Please consider users with multiple display channels driven > from multiple computeres synced together over the network. > > Nothing is more embarassing (well maybe I shouldn't say > nothing) than demoing the new sim software on a 6 screen > visual system flightgear based simulator and having 6 > independent ATC/Tower communications sessions going (one on > each screen) and then having different airplanes appear on one > screen and not on any of the others. > > Please consider some way to replicate the MP/AI traffic across > multiple visual channels, perhaps slave from one master > machine that communicates with the outside MP server. > > Thanks! > > Curt. I was just wondering if pigeon's FG map web-site could be adapted to function as a radar and had started to think about how it might be nice to include AI traffic as well when the problem of inconsistent AI aircraft that you mentioned above occurred to me:) Perhaps a possible solution would be for the MP server to generate AI traffic and for local AI traffic to be switched off when connected to an MP server. For the multi-system type set-up you're using for your 6 screen configuration there would have to be some way of nominating one of the systems to take on the MP AI role, with the remaining systems treating it as an MP server. LeeE --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
Martin Spott wrote: Hello Durk, Durk Talsma wrote: I still haven't firmly decided how ATC should interact with AI traffic, but that these systems should be integrated has always been part of my overarching design plan. Since my AI developments are based on extending the AIModels code, this would naturally move toward a fully integrated system. To me it's obvious why MP and AI are partially going to be merged some day, because both are 'exterior' sources of aircraft movement from the FlightGear users' point of view. If you think of integrating ATC with AI as well, then please keep in mind that a special situation arises because we are unlikely to convince AI aircraft to listen to 'human' ATC :-) Also, who ever is developing and working on the MP and AI code: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! Please consider users with multiple display channels driven from multiple computeres synced together over the network. Nothing is more embarassing (well maybe I shouldn't say nothing) than demoing the new sim software on a 6 screen visual system flightgear based simulator and having 6 independent ATC/Tower communications sessions going (one on each screen) and then having different airplanes appear on one screen and not on any of the others. Please consider some way to replicate the MP/AI traffic across multiple visual channels, perhaps slave from one master machine that communicates with the outside MP server. Thanks! Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thursday 05 January 2006 21:13, Durk Talsma wrote: > I haven't firmly > decided yet, but I'm considering starting to tackle airway following code, > which is in a way quite similar to the ground network. Now that would be amazing. No other desktop sim has AI flying realistic flightplans along airways. Of course we may not be flying airways in real life for much longer with all the GPS and automated routing ideas floating around. Maybe "GPS direct" isn't so far fetched after all. Paul --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
Am Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2006 23:32 schrieb Martin Spott: > To me it's obvious why MP and AI are partially going to be merged some > day, because both are 'exterior' sources of aircraft movement from the > FlightGear users' point of view. If you think of integrating ATC with > AI as well, then please keep in mind that a special situation arises > because we are unlikely to convince AI aircraft to listen to 'human' > ATC :-) Hi Martin, I don't believe that this is a problem at all. We can mask a aircraft as AI so that a human controller knows, he has to command the aircraft only "by text". Where "by text" means the command window - For lazy controllers this windows also creates readable text messages when the command is for a human pilot and sends this over network/whatever... Karsten --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
Hello Durk, Durk Talsma wrote: > I still haven't firmly decided how ATC should interact with AI traffic, but > that these systems should be integrated has always been part of my > overarching design plan. Since my AI developments are based on extending the > AIModels code, this would naturally move toward a fully integrated system. To me it's obvious why MP and AI are partially going to be merged some day, because both are 'exterior' sources of aircraft movement from the FlightGear users' point of view. If you think of integrating ATC with AI as well, then please keep in mind that a special situation arises because we are unlikely to convince AI aircraft to listen to 'human' ATC :-) Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
AI development plans (Was: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication)
On Thursday 05 January 2006 14:55, Martin Spott wrote: > In other words (with a not that negative touch) this would say: We'd > appreciate if ATC/AI developers would keep such a scenario in mind when > they plan changes to this stuff. > You can't doubt that voice ATC is reality, not only in real life but in > desktop flight simulation as well. Why should FlightGear negate heading > for this direction ? > > Martin. [Since this mail turned out to become rather lengthy, I decided it might be better to continue this thread under a new subject name]. I still haven't firmly decided how ATC should interact with AI traffic, but that these systems should be integrated has always been part of my overarching design plan. Since my AI developments are based on extending the AIModels code, this would naturally move toward a fully integrated system. My global thoughts on a possible AI-based ATC system is that is going to be a module that monitors the behavior of AIModel aircraft in a certain sector, and that has the capability of overriding the preprogrammed AIAircraft routing commands to avoid conflict situations, or whatever. Information about this overriding behavior would then in parallel be sent in the form of a verbal instruction to a virtual radio unit and received in the users cockpit, by voice or text message, if the user's radio is tuned to the right frequency. My plan is also, however, not to start working on integrating the AI system until after the basic AI routing system is finished. FWIW, I have now finished the following parts of the AI traffic system: - A global routing system, that is capable of letting AIModels based aircraft fly a rotating sequence of flights between two or more airports, that is, any airport in FlightGear's database. - Taxiway following at selected airports (currently only implemented for my hometown airport, but more network files are under development) - Rudimentary support for ground network editing in David Luff's excellent Taxidraw program, so that users can add taxiway following for [name your favorite airport here] - Very early development code for a routing table editor - Dynamic preferential runway use, based upon wind, time-of-day, noise abatement procedures, and other possible restrictions. I'm currently trying to clean up a few rough edges with respect to AIModels ground handling and in the mean time I'm thinking about what my next development goals for this year will be going to be. I haven't firmly decided yet, but I'm considering starting to tackle airway following code, which is in a way quite similar to the ground network. In addition to that, I'm also trying to continue working on developing the ground network editor and the routing table editor. All 'n' all, there's still enough to do. :-) Cheers, Durk --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 17:09 +, Martin Spott wrote: > Oliver Schroeder wrote: > > > A RADAR station can be implemented as a listener to the server, so the > > server > > sends information of aircrafts to the radar just as to any other client. > > Maybe I have to add some minor changes to the server code, but all in all > > it > > should be pretty simple to create a listener. > > Any volunteers to implement a RADAR, step forward! :) > > The software that I had in mind is "xATC". Although I still have a copy > of the 1.3b release I have the impression that the project has closed. > I'm not sure about the license. > > Another approach is this one: > > http://airtraffic.sourceforge.net/ > > Maybe someone wants to feed him real data :-) I have had a read of the above site and already airtraffic has the ability of switching between human and AI players. That is the game continues when there is no human, under AI ATC control. It's an interesting idea. Regards George --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Oliver Schroeder wrote: > A RADAR station can be implemented as a listener to the server, so the > server > sends information of aircrafts to the radar just as to any other client. > Maybe I have to add some minor changes to the server code, but all in all it > should be pretty simple to create a listener. > Any volunteers to implement a RADAR, step forward! :) The software that I had in mind is "xATC". Although I still have a copy of the 1.3b release I have the impression that the project has closed. I'm not sure about the license. Another approach is this one: http://airtraffic.sourceforge.net/ Maybe someone wants to feed him real data :-) Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
"Buchanan, Stuart" wrote: > I feel slightly wary of voice-based comms within FG itself, if only > because it is unlikely to be able to integrate within the current ATC/AI > code. In other words (with a not that negative touch) this would say: We'd appreciate if ATC/AI developers would keep such a scenario in mind when they plan changes to this stuff. You can't doubt that voice ATC is reality, not only in real life but in desktop flight simulation as well. Why should FlightGear negate heading for this direction ? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On Thursday 05 January 2006 13:33, Erik Hofman wrote: > Martin Spott wrote: > > I'd like to underline these two points: > > 1.) There won't be any volunteer who is serious about doing ATC > > service as long as FlightGear does not have _appropriate_ > > capabilities. Appropriate capabilities in my eyes includes > > something that resembles the functions of a radar screen plus ... > > Once the multiplayer code uses the AIModel code this would be easy. There is currently development ongoing to implement multiplayer using AIModels. However, a RADAR system doesn't need this. A RADAR station just needs position information of nearby aircrafts. Additional info might be the channels a pilot listens to with his voice com equipment. Our efforts to use AIModels include sending properties over the wire, so it would be easy to include any frequencies if needed. A RADAR station can be implemented as a listener to the server, so the server sends information of aircrafts to the radar just as to any other client. Maybe I have to add some minor changes to the server code, but all in all it should be pretty simple to create a listener. Any volunteers to implement a RADAR, step forward! :) regards, Oliver --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Martin Spott wrote: > As I understand the respective effort is already underway and simply > just needs more time - which I appreciate very much because I'm a big > fan of redundancy-avoidance :-) when it comes to software design. Redundancy in the context of data backups is a different story :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Erik Hofman wrote: > Martin Spott wrote: >> I'd like to underline these two points: >> 1.) There won't be any volunteer who is serious about doing ATC >> service as long as FlightGear does not have _appropriate_ >> capabilities. Appropriate capabilities in my eyes includes >> something that resembles the functions of a radar screen plus ... > > Once the multiplayer code uses the AIModel code this would be easy. As I understand the respective effort is already underway and simply just needs more time - which I appreciate very much because I'm a big fan of redundancy-avoidance :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Martin Spott wrote: I'd like to underline these two points: 1.) There won't be any volunteer who is serious about doing ATC service as long as FlightGear does not have _appropriate_ capabilities. Appropriate capabilities in my eyes includes something that resembles the functions of a radar screen plus ... Once the multiplayer code uses the AIModel code this would be easy. Erik --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Hi all, Yesterday I was thinking to try to model the plane that Curt suggested but I think implementing a voice ATC is much more pliable on my actual skills "good C/C++ & researching the net for components/API that can help me in achieving a scope & integrating the API/components & testing". So I am intersted in start to work to this voice ATC for FlightGear. Of course beeing new to FG maybe I am not seeing all the implications and all the complexity of such a project but it is intersting me a lot and I think I can achieve the final scope ot it. Still I need initial points from you to start(like similar systems in similar flight simulators + links with resources that you think that can help me + links with documentation. Cheers, Virgil --- "Buchanan, Stuart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- Martin Spott wrote: > > Christian Mayer wrote: > > > Martin Spott schrieb: > > > > >> Could you probably back this with an > explanation ? Voice-based ATC is > > >> done all over the world, why should'nt > FlightGear do this as well ? > > > > > > I understand the point that a real voice service > does only make sense > > > when there is an ATC service (at least for the > big airports and > > > instrument flying) that can handle it. > > [...] > > > Text messages have the big problem that when you > are already missing a > > > few hands during landing you would need an > additional hand that > > selects > > > the correct text. A voice message would be > parallel... > > > > I'd like to underline these two points: > > 1.) There won't be any volunteer who is serious > about doing ATC > > service as long as FlightGear does not have > _appropriate_ > > capabilities. Appropriate capabilities in my > eyes includes > > something that resembles the functions of a > radar screen plus ... > > 2.) a medium that allows ATC to communicate with > the pilots in a way > > that really allows for doing ATC. Typing text > messages definitely > > does not fall in this category because ATC as > well as the pilots > > need their hands for other tasks. I don't know > a single serious > > pilot who is capable of flying an approach > with just one hand (you > > need one for the controls and the other for > throttle/flaps/whatever > > - not to speak of the necessary skills to type > only with the > > fingers on the other hand. > > I feel slightly wary of voice-based comms within FG > itself, if only > because it is unlikely to be able to integrate > within the current ATC/AI > code. Having human ATC is great, but a fallback AI > version would allow a > small number of human ATC controllers to be part of > a complete ATC > environment. > > I think there is probably more mileage in the > menu-style system that is > currently used for our ATC. If we could access the > ATC menu options using > the keyboard (numbers 1 - 9 on the top of the > keyboard?) it wouldn't take > too much effort on approach, and adding a free-form > text box would be > fairly > > Of course, just because you are using a text-based > ATC system for the > basic interaction, doesn't mean you can't use > voice-comms on top of that > to add realism. > > Regards, > > -Stuart > > > > ___ > > NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands > of new and used cars online! > http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/ > > > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do > you grep through log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search > engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the > web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
--- Martin Spott wrote: > Christian Mayer wrote: > > Martin Spott schrieb: > > >> Could you probably back this with an explanation ? Voice-based ATC is > >> done all over the world, why should'nt FlightGear do this as well ? > > > > I understand the point that a real voice service does only make sense > > when there is an ATC service (at least for the big airports and > > instrument flying) that can handle it. > [...] > > Text messages have the big problem that when you are already missing a > > few hands during landing you would need an additional hand that > selects > > the correct text. A voice message would be parallel... > > I'd like to underline these two points: > 1.) There won't be any volunteer who is serious about doing ATC > service as long as FlightGear does not have _appropriate_ > capabilities. Appropriate capabilities in my eyes includes > something that resembles the functions of a radar screen plus ... > 2.) a medium that allows ATC to communicate with the pilots in a way > that really allows for doing ATC. Typing text messages definitely > does not fall in this category because ATC as well as the pilots > need their hands for other tasks. I don't know a single serious > pilot who is capable of flying an approach with just one hand (you > need one for the controls and the other for throttle/flaps/whatever > - not to speak of the necessary skills to type only with the > fingers on the other hand. I feel slightly wary of voice-based comms within FG itself, if only because it is unlikely to be able to integrate within the current ATC/AI code. Having human ATC is great, but a fallback AI version would allow a small number of human ATC controllers to be part of a complete ATC environment. I think there is probably more mileage in the menu-style system that is currently used for our ATC. If we could access the ATC menu options using the keyboard (numbers 1 - 9 on the top of the keyboard?) it wouldn't take too much effort on approach, and adding a free-form text box would be fairly Of course, just because you are using a text-based ATC system for the basic interaction, doesn't mean you can't use voice-comms on top of that to add realism. Regards, -Stuart ___ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/ --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Christian Mayer wrote: > Martin Spott schrieb: >> Could you probably back this with an explanation ? Voice-based ATC is >> done all over the world, why should'nt FlightGear do this as well ? > > I understand the point that a real voice service does only make sense > when there is an ATC service (at least for the big airports and > instrument flying) that can handle it. [...] > Text messages have the big problem that when you are already missing a > few hands during landing you would need an additional hand that selects > the correct text. A voice message would be parallel... I'd like to underline these two points: 1.) There won't be any volunteer who is serious about doing ATC service as long as FlightGear does not have _appropriate_ capabilities. Appropriate capabilities in my eyes includes something that resembles the functions of a radar screen plus ... 2.) a medium that allows ATC to communicate with the pilots in a way that really allows for doing ATC. Typing text messages definitely does not fall in this category because ATC as well as the pilots need their hands for other tasks. I don't know a single serious pilot who is capable of flying an approach with just one hand (you need one for the controls and the other for throttle/flaps/whatever - not to speak of the necessary skills to type only with the fingers on the other hand. Unfortunately I don't have the skills and/or capabilities to implement both ends. I can offer to set up and maintain the infrastructure that's required for such a voice service - as long as the number of users doesn't grow into several hundreds - but such a project would require another volunteer to care for the client side, i.e. implement something that couples voice communication to FlightGear (preferrably in a portable and foresighted way). Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Ben Clark wrote: > [...] If multiplayer environments become crowded voice communications > would be a perfect way to avoid collision. Maybe it would be a good idea to > implement some ATC controls in FG (tracking radar with height, etc) Didn't someone recently post the link to an OpenSource ATC application that displays some sort of a radar screen ? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Christian Mayer wrote: > Only having a very brief look linux-wildo it seems to have potential. > But it looks like is has only one developer - that might become a > problem if he decides to spend his time differently. ^ "she her" :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Spott schrieb: > "Ampere K. Hardraade" wrote: > > >>Although voice communication would be a great addition to FlightGear, it is >>going to be pretty useless feature. > > > Could you probably back this with an explanation ? Voice-based ATC is > done all over the world, why should'nt FlightGear do this as well ? I understand the point that a real voice service does only make sense when there is an ATC service (at least for the big airports and instrument flying) that can handle it. This ATC must be "maned" or "computered" somehow. Assuming we've got a program that can simulate an ATC it still must interface the users. Predefined text messages would be the easiest to start with - but they can also work when the pilots have a voice chat between each other and can also be used with text-to-speech so that everyone else hears it. Text messages have the big problem that when you are already missing a few hands during landing you would need an additional hand that selects the correct text. A voice message would be parallel... So the very far and big aim would be a speech recognition capable ATC... Looking a few paragraphs back you see an assumption. That is currently not true. And I know noone who trys to tackle that problem. That leaves two possibilities: take it or leave it. Take it doesn't cost anything and might bring some fun and attract someone who loves to write the full blown ATC simulatior. Or leave it that also doesn't cost anything - except having fun. If someone integrates it I'd love to try it. CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDvOm0lhWtxOxWNFcRAhslAJ9fNNTnNUYSudPQtGyg+yK0i3Hs/ACfSiKJ miQTNSVj0n3QUtmufwhAgy0= =ILrB -END PGP SIGNATURE- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
"Ampere K. Hardraade" wrote: > Although voice communication would be a great addition to FlightGear, it is > going to be pretty useless feature. Could you probably back this with an explanation ? Voice-based ATC is done all over the world, why should'nt FlightGear do this as well ? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
On January 4, 2006 06:59 pm, Ben Clark wrote: > This would certainly be useful for people wanting to train up in air > traffic control. If multiplayer environments become crowded voice > communications would be a perfect way to avoid collision. Maybe it would be > a good idea to implement some ATC controls in FG (tracking radar with > height, etc), either in FG itself or by the pigeond.net map system. It'd > sure be an exciting and fairly original feature for Flightgear :D Although voice communication would be a great addition to FlightGear, it is going to be pretty useless feature. I'd rather see a text-based AI-ATC system being hosted on some dedicate server that can provide ATC services for most airports, rather than having a voice system that doesn't serve any function. Ampere --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
This would certainly be useful for people wanting to train up in air traffic control. If multiplayer environments become crowded voice communications would be a perfect way to avoid collision. Maybe it would be a good idea to implement some ATC controls in FG (tracking radar with height, etc), either in FG itself or by the pigeond.net map system. It'd sure be an exciting and fairly original feature for Flightgear :DOn 04/01/06, Christian Mayer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Andrea Vezzali schrieb:> Hi All! Some time ago on the mailing list I read something about> multiplayer's voice comunication, does anyone is working on that? If yes > what is the state of development? I'm asking that because I found this> GPL project http://linux-wildo.sourceforge.net/ that maybe interesting> for FG... A voice communication tool that works together with multi player wouldbe great.It needs to fullfill at least a few requirements though:- - cross platform (i.e. run everywhere FG does)- - minimum use of resources - - be stable and easy to setup or include in FG (that includes installingand firewall/NAT penetration)- - it should be actively supportedAt least the first two seem to be covered.Nice to have would be: - - FGFS should be able to controll the voice link. Like adding staticsbased on the distance to the communication partner, etc. pp.- - seamless integration in FGOnly having a very brief look linux-wildo it seems to have potential. But it looks like is has only one developer - that might become aproblem if he decides to spend his time differently.CU,Christian-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDvF1+lhWtxOxWNFcRAuM8AJwPYp/hi8FsTH0K885s07BklSo1+gCgpkL3bqrvqlLP20prrJ+IzmDvhxw==W6aL-END PGP SIGNATUREThis SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log filesfor problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makessearching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click___Flightgear-devel mailing listFlightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel-- http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=35216&t=1">Get Firefox!
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrea Vezzali schrieb: > Hi All! Some time ago on the mailing list I read something about > multiplayer's voice comunication, does anyone is working on that? If yes > what is the state of development? I'm asking that because I found this > GPL project http://linux-wildo.sourceforge.net/ that maybe interesting > for FG... A voice communication tool that works together with multi player would be great. It needs to fullfill at least a few requirements though: - - cross platform (i.e. run everywhere FG does) - - minimum use of resources - - be stable and easy to setup or include in FG (that includes installing and firewall/NAT penetration) - - it should be actively supported At least the first two seem to be covered. Nice to have would be: - - FGFS should be able to controll the voice link. Like adding statics based on the distance to the communication partner, etc. pp. - - seamless integration in FG Only having a very brief look linux-wildo it seems to have potential. But it looks like is has only one developer - that might become a problem if he decides to spend his time differently. CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDvF1+lhWtxOxWNFcRAuM8AJwPYp/hi8FsTH0K885s07BklSo1+gCgpkL3 bqrvqlLP20prrJ+IzmDvhxw= =W6aL -END PGP SIGNATURE- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Martin Spott > Andrea Vezzali wrote: > > Hi All! Some time ago on the mailing list I read something about > > multiplayer's voice comunication, does anyone is working on that? > > No, the solutions that people proposed in the past had been blessed > with disregard by most FlightGear developers. > Not by me, Martin. We're currently tearing our hair out trying to get a good MP solution. If we come up with something presentable, we can then turn our attention to your scheme. Vivian --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Andrea Vezzali wrote: > Hi All! Some time ago on the mailing list I read something about > multiplayer's voice comunication, does anyone is working on that? No, the solutions that people proposed in the past had been blessed with disregard by most FlightGear developers. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Multiplayer voice comunication
Hi All! Some time ago on the mailing list I read something about multiplayer's voice comunication, does anyone is working on that? If yes what is the state of development? I'm asking that because I found this GPL project http://linux-wildo.sourceforge.net/ that maybe interesting for FG... Andrea V. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
