Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?
Jakob, not to be a party-pooper, but I'm not real hot on the idea of my posts possibly making their way into someone's documentation. for some of my recent Frame problems, I received very useful information through this mailing list. I would like to add references to these posts to our internal documentation, preferably just a URL per post. However, I'm not sure this is possible with the Lyris John Posada Senior Technical Writer So long and thanks for all the fish. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?
Jakob, I believe, if you read the copyright notice on frameusers.com, you will see that ownership of posts is retained by the author. And I would submit that because the content of the site is copyrighted as a body, that body-of-work further documents each posting as belonging to the author. I eagerly await your contract proposal for assigning rights (and the subsequent royalty checks) for usage of my posts off the list, as I'm sure most members do. ;- ) Cheers, Art On 1/26/06, Jakob Fix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, for some of my recent Frame problems, I received very useful information through this mailing list. I would like to add references to these posts to our internal documentation, preferably just a URL per post. However, I'm not sure this is possible with the Lyris mailing list software (and its blasted, slow archive). Would it be a good idea to add this list to gmane.org? From the site: This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news groups. This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist. What's new with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the server, and the gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of these mailing lists without being subscribed to them yourself, depending on whether the mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post or not. In addition, Gmane does spam detection, cross-post handling, has a TMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding service, a web interface, respects X-No-Archive, supplies RSS feeds, uses SPF, features user-defined filters, gathers traffic statistics, and has a real-time indexing search engine. Obviously, email addresses are hidden from view and from harvesting. It's free. I have no relationship with gmane apart from being a very satisfied user. What do you think? Lisa? -- cheers, Jakob. -- Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?
Art, I know I should refrain from replying ... but ... can't ... must ... answer. :-) On 26/01/06, Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jakob, I believe, if you read the copyright notice on frameusers.com, you will see that ownership of posts is retained by the author. And I would submit that because the content of the site is copyrighted as a body, that body-of-work further documents each posting as belonging to the author. Let's see: http://www.mail-archive.com/framers@lists.frameusers.com/msg00795.html How much is this link worth? And who does it belong to? Rick? The Framers mailing list? The mail-archive.com people? Just talking about the link, mind you. These are really interesting questions, and I won't think we will find a satisfying answer (42 anyone?), but I also think nobody will be able to tell whether or not I put these links in an internal document or not. So I think I'm safe, for the moment :-). -- cheers, Jakob. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?
I'm so glad that the technical ability to do it has superceded the wishes of people who are taking their time to help other list members. I'm sure I can find instructions and links on the web to crack someone's IT enterprise. That must make it OK too. --- Jakob Fix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, just found out that Framers is archived publicly with exactly what I need: http://www.mail-archive.com/framers@lists.frameusers.com/ All is well now (except maybe for John P. :-)) John Posada Senior Technical Writer So long and thanks for all the fish. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?
I'm not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV, either), but I don't see how publication in any medium of a URL to an item in a publicly available archive infringes on the original poster's copyright. It seems to me that publishing a URL is analogous to publishing the ISBN number for a work published in hard. All you are doing is facilitating someone's ability to access the original work which is already publicly available. If you want to carry the copyright thing to such an extreme, how about forbidding the inclusion of any portion of the original posting in all replies? That seems to be more of a rights violation to me than publishing a URL to a public archive. My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel (particularly on intellectual property issues...) Fred Ridder Intel Parsippany, NJ From: Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakob Fix [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Framers List framers@frameusers.com Subject: Re: add Framers list to gmane.org? Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:43:53 -0500 I don't see anything in the archive site that implies that FM posts are not still copyright by the author. Art _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: add Framers list to gmane.org?
Dear Jakob, I'm glad that you received useful information from the list. I have had exactly the same experience. I applaud your thought of sharing this bounty. However, using gmane.org, you can not do this fairly without contacting each person who signed up to Framers and asking each of them for permission to do it. If anyone refuses, you can not do it, period. I think other list users would agree. When anyone signs up for an e-mail list, they share information to that list. By doing that, they accept the list's privacy policy. I don't see a link to it on FrameUsers.com, but I'm sure one exists, if not in writing then in the minds of the lists' administrators. If you then put the e-mail list into any tool that exposes it beyond its intended audience, you've violated the privacy policy. I won't get into the legal aspects of this, since I'm sure another respondent will (if it hasn't happened already). Though your intentions are quite good, I am writing to remind you that you can't control gmane.org. If you want to publicize framers list, then publicize it and make individuals sign up for it. That forces them to break the barrier of anonymity. That is the right, honorable, and decent way to share information online. I hope that you will consider it in this light and do the right thing. Joe Joe Malin Technical Writer (408)625-1623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.tuvox.com The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jakob Fix Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 6:14 AM To: Framers List Subject: add Framers list to gmane.org? Hello, for some of my recent Frame problems, I received very useful information through this mailing list. I would like to add references to these posts to our internal documentation, preferably just a URL per post. However, I'm not sure this is possible with the Lyris mailing list software (and its blasted, slow archive). ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?
Stuart...that is not even close to what I object to. Posting a fully formed URL for easier use by list members within the approved list community and posting a URL in a source I know nothing about, for use by people I know nothing about, used in a way and context I know nothing about are two completely different things. I assume you said what you did to get a response, not because it made any sense. nothing more than an address) constitutes copyright violation, why did you ask us all to do it for you? ( http://tinyurl.com/8dn69 ) John Posada Senior Technical Writer So long and thanks for all the fish. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?--Spam implications
Jakob Fix wrote: Sorry, just found out that Framers is archived publicly with exactly what I need: http://www.mail-archive.com/framers@lists.frameusers.com/ And to get back to my point from yesterday, if you click on any of these links, the email is shown as [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that spammers can't get the address... John ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: add Framers list to gmane.org?
If it gets that far, it is only because the request that I made on this forum was ignored. Besides...that isn't extortion. That would be if I came out of nowhere and threatened harm. I'd only be responding to what I perceive as harm made first to me. going to make Jakob question how important the information in that post really was. Yes, you can bully him into doing what you want by threatening them with some sort of harm. That's usually called extortion... John Posada Senior Technical Writer So long and thanks for all the fish. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Hello, for some of my recent Frame problems, I received very useful information through this mailing list. I would like to add references to these posts to our internal documentation, preferably just a URL per post. However, I'm not sure this is possible with the Lyris mailing list software (and its blasted, slow archive). Would it be a good idea to add this list to gmane.org? From the site: "This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news groups. This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist. What's new with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the server, and the gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of these mailing lists without being subscribed to them yourself, depending on whether the mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post or not. "In addition, Gmane does spam detection, cross-post handling, has a TMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding service, a web interface, respects X-No-Archive, supplies RSS feeds, uses SPF, features user-defined filters, gathers traffic statistics, and has a real-time indexing search engine." Obviously, email addresses are hidden from view and from harvesting. It's free. I have no relationship with gmane apart from being a very satisfied user. What do you think? Lisa? -- cheers, Jakob.
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Jakob, not to be a party-pooper, but I'm not real hot on the idea of my posts possibly making their way into someone's documentation. > for some of my recent Frame problems, I received very useful > information through this mailing list. I would like to add > references to these posts to our internal documentation, > preferably just a URL per post. However, I'm not sure this > is possible with the Lyris John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
John, On 26/01/06, John Posada wrote: > Jakob, not to be a party-pooper, but I'm not real hot on the idea of > my posts possibly making their way into someone's documentation. ah, a misunderstanding: I intend to use these links just as references for internal howto documents to be shared with colleagues, not as an official documentation that will be distributed to clients, if that's your concern. -- cheers, Jakob.
add Framers list to gmane.org?
> ah, a misunderstanding: I intend to use these links > just as references for internal howto documents to be > shared with colleagues, not as an official documentation > that will be distributed to clients, if that's > your concern. Sorry, Jakob, there was no misunderstanding. Why? you may have every intention of not making them public, but once they are in documentation, anything can happen; somepone else recycles what you create not knowing the restrictions, you leave and someone takes over the stuff and doesn't know, it's just an issue I'd rather not be involved with. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
John wrote: -> Why? you may have every intention of not making them public, -> but once they are in documentation, anything can happen; -> somepone else recycles what you create not knowing the -> restrictions, you leave and someone takes over the stuff and -> doesn't know, it's just an issue I'd rather not be involved with. Would copying and pasting into internal documetation be any better? I don't think so. -Niels -> -Original Message- -> From: framers-bounces+nfa=maconomy.dk at lists.frameusers.com -> [mailto:framers-bounces+nfa=maconomy.dk at lists.frameusers.com] -> On Behalf Of John Posada -> Sent: 26. januar 2006 15:36 -> To: Jakob Fix; Framers List -> Subject: Re: add Framers list to gmane.org? -> -> > ah, a misunderstanding: I intend to use these links just -> as references -> > for internal howto documents to be shared with colleagues, -> not as an -> > official documentation that will be distributed to -> clients, if that's -> > your concern. -> -> Sorry, Jakob, there was no misunderstanding. -> -> Why? you may have every intention of not making them public, -> but once they are in documentation, anything can happen; -> somepone else recycles what you create not knowing the -> restrictions, you leave and someone takes over the stuff and -> doesn't know, it's just an issue I'd rather not be involved with. -> -> -> -> John Posada -> Senior Technical Writer -> -> "So long and thanks for all the fish." -> ___ -> -> -> You are currently subscribed to Framers as NFA at maconomy.dk. -> -> To unsubscribe send a blank email to -> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com -> or visit -> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/nfa%40maconomy.dk -> -> Send administrative questions to lisa at frameusers.com. Visit -> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ->
add Framers list to gmane.org?
> Would copying and pasting into internal documetation > be any better? > I don't think so. Chances are that if the information is copied and pasted, not everything ffrom the message is included...headers, sigs, and other attributes would be stripped out. A URL includes everything. I'm not going to justify why I don't like it. I just don't. I cannot stop it if it happens and I don't know about it and if I'm the only person that objects, I'm outvoted. I just said I don't like it. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
John, On 26/01/06, John Posada wrote: > > ah, a misunderstanding: I intend to use these links > > just as references for internal howto documents to be > > shared with colleagues, not as an official documentation > > that will be distributed to clients, if that's > > your concern. > > Sorry, Jakob, there was no misunderstanding. oops? > Why? you may have every intention of not making them public, but once > they are in documentation, anything can happen; somepone else > recycles what you create not knowing the restrictions, you leave and > someone takes over the stuff and doesn't know, it's just an issue I'd > rather not be involved with. So, in essence, it seems this has absolutely nothing to do with my original request as to whether or not to add the mailing list to site such as http://gmane.org/ ? If I'd simply asked for "easy access to previous posts via a simple one-URL-per-post scheme instead of a long and not always successful search in the mailing list archive", you would have agreed, or wouldn't you? Of course, even now I can cut and paste, or print, or "save as", or even screen capture your contributions to this mailing list, whether you like it or not. But this is not my intention. I just want to be able to do this (an extract of a Howto document): "Further information == "The main download site for these utilities is here: http://www.systec-gmbh.com/en/sites/downloads_epub.php "Adobe acknowledges this problem for FrameMaker 6 and provides a patch, but not for 5.5.6. Patch is available here: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=1420 "See the Framers mailing list, search for the thread titled "unavailable figures make Frame crash"." The last phrase I'd like to replace by a URL to the original post of this thread. That's all. -- cheers, Jakob.
add Framers list to gmane.org?
> If I'd simply asked for "easy access to previous > posts via a simple one-URL-per-post scheme instead > of a long and not always successful > search in the mailing list archive", you would have > agreed, or wouldn't you? If it means a direct URL to a post by non-members out of the control of the list, no, I wouldn't. Jakob..I'm not going to break everything down to it's smallest detail. I don't know gmane and it doesn't matter. I simply saw your post and it made me uncomfortable. You can do what you want how you want it. I'm just not giving it my blessing and I'm not spending any more time debating it. = John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Jakob, I believe, if you read the copyright notice on frameusers.com, you will see that ownership of posts is retained by the author. And I would submit that because the content of the site is copyrighted as a body, that body-of-work further documents each posting as belonging to the author. I eagerly await your contract proposal for assigning rights (and the subsequent royalty checks) for usage of my posts off the list, as I'm sure most members do. ;- ) Cheers, Art On 1/26/06, Jakob Fix wrote: > Hello, > > for some of my recent Frame problems, I received very useful > information through this mailing list. I would like to add references > to these posts to our internal documentation, preferably just a URL > per post. However, I'm not sure this is possible with the Lyris > mailing list software (and its blasted, slow archive). > > Would it be a good idea to add this list to gmane.org? From the site: > > "This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news > groups. This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist. > What's new with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the > server, and the gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of > these mailing lists without being subscribed to them yourself, > depending on whether the mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post > or not. > > "In addition, Gmane does spam detection, cross-post handling, has a > TMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding service, a web interface, respects > X-No-Archive, supplies RSS feeds, uses SPF, features user-defined > filters, gathers traffic statistics, and has a real-time indexing > search engine." > > Obviously, email addresses are hidden from view and from harvesting. > It's free. I have no relationship with gmane apart from being a very > satisfied user. > > What do you think? Lisa? > > -- > cheers, > Jakob. -- Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Sorry, just found out that Framers is archived publicly with exactly what I need: http://www.mail-archive.com/framers at lists.frameusers.com/ All is well now (except maybe for John P. :-)) -- cheers, Jakob.
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Art,
I know I should refrain from replying ... but ... can't ... must ... answer. :-)
On 26/01/06, Art Campbell wrote:
> Jakob,
>
> I believe, if you read the copyright notice on frameusers.com, you
> will see that ownership of posts is retained by the author. And I
> would submit that because the content of the site is copyrighted as a
> body, that body-of-work further documents each posting as belonging to
> the author.
Let's see:
http://www.mail-archive.com/framers at lists.frameusers.com/msg00795.html
How much is this link worth? And who does it belong to? Rick? The
Framers mailing list? The mail-archive.com people? Just talking about
the link, mind you.
These are really interesting questions, and I won't think we will find
a satisfying answer ("42" anyone?), but I also think nobody will be
able to tell whether or not I put these links in an internal document
or not. So I think I'm safe, for the moment :-).
--
cheers,
Jakob.
add Framers list to gmane.org?
I'm so glad that the technical ability to do it has superceded the wishes of people who are taking their time to help other list members. I'm sure I can find instructions and links on the web to crack someone's IT enterprise. That must make it OK too. --- Jakob Fix wrote: > Sorry, just found out that Framers is archived publicly with > exactly what I need: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers at lists.frameusers.com/ > > All is well now (except maybe for John P. :-)) John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
I don't see anything in the archive site that implies that FM posts are not
still copyright by the author.
Art
On 1/26/06, Jakob Fix wrote:
> Art,
>
> I know I should refrain from replying ... but ... can't ... must ... answer.
> :-)
>
> On 26/01/06, Art Campbell wrote:
> > Jakob,
> >
> > I believe, if you read the copyright notice on frameusers.com, you
> > will see that ownership of posts is retained by the author. And I
> > would submit that because the content of the site is copyrighted as a
> > body, that body-of-work further documents each posting as belonging to
> > the author.
>
> Let's see:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers at lists.frameusers.com/msg00795.html
>
> How much is this link worth? And who does it belong to? Rick? The
> Framers mailing list? The mail-archive.com people? Just talking about
> the link, mind you.
>
> These are really interesting questions, and I won't think we will find
> a satisfying answer ("42" anyone?), but I also think nobody will be
> able to tell whether or not I put these links in an internal document
> or not. So I think I'm safe, for the moment :-).
>
> --
> cheers,
> Jakob.
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to lisa at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
--
Art Campbell art.campbell at
gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
add Framers list to gmane.org?
I'm not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV, either), but I don't see how publication in any medium of a URL to an item in a publicly available archive infringes on the original poster's copyright. It seems to me that publishing a URL is analogous to publishing the ISBN number for a work published in hard. All you are doing is facilitating someone's ability to access the original work which is already publicly available. If you want to carry the copyright thing to such an extreme, how about forbidding the inclusion of any portion of the original posting in all replies? That seems to be more of a rights violation to me than publishing a URL to a public archive. My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel (particularly on intellectual property issues...) Fred Ridder Intel Parsippany, NJ >From: Art Campbell >To: Jakob Fix >CC: Framers List >Subject: Re: add Framers list to gmane.org? >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:43:53 -0500 > >I don't see anything in the archive site that implies that FM posts are not >still copyright by the author. > >Art > _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
add Framers list to gmane.org?
> a satisfying answer ("42" anyone?), but I also
> think nobody will be able to tell whether or not
>I put these links in an internal
> document or not. So I think I'm safe, for the moment :-).
Wrong. more than once I've received real voice phone calls from
people who saw my name on a post, did some searching, and called me
up. The most recent one was about a thread on PageMaker viewers that
took place a couple of years ago. Or, I could get an email from
someone at your company asking for more information.
If that happens, I WILL be contacting your legal department on
copyright infringement and I HAVE retained the posts on this thread
as proof that I don't approve of my posts being used.
Of course, you could sneak around the wishes that anyone else may
have by remembering to just not use my post but ignore the wishes of
anyone else, whether they've participated in thread or not.
I don't think anyone else who practices copyright violation and gets
caught expected to get caught either.
John Posada
Senior Technical Writer
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Dear Jakob, I'm glad that you received useful information from the list. I have had exactly the same experience. I applaud your thought of sharing this bounty. However, using gmane.org, you can not do this fairly without contacting each person who signed up to Framers and asking each of them for permission to do it. If anyone refuses, you can not do it, period. I think other list users would agree. When anyone signs up for an e-mail list, they share information to that list. By doing that, they accept the list's privacy policy. I don't see a link to it on FrameUsers.com, but I'm sure one exists, if not in writing then in the minds of the lists' administrators. If you then put the e-mail list into any tool that exposes it beyond its intended audience, you've violated the privacy policy. I won't get into the legal aspects of this, since I'm sure another respondent will (if it hasn't happened already). Though your intentions are quite good, I am writing to remind you that you can't control gmane.org. If you want to publicize framers list, then publicize it and make individuals sign up for it. That forces them to break the barrier of anonymity. That is the right, honorable, and decent way to share information online. I hope that you will consider it in this light and do the right thing. Joe Joe Malin Technical Writer (408)625-1623 jmalin at tuvox.com www.tuvox.com The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc. -Original Message- From: framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Jakob Fix Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 6:14 AM To: Framers List Subject: add Framers list to gmane.org? Hello, for some of my recent Frame problems, I received very useful information through this mailing list. I would like to add references to these posts to our internal documentation, preferably just a URL per post. However, I'm not sure this is possible with the Lyris mailing list software (and its blasted, slow archive).
add Framers list to gmane.org?
John Posada wrote: >I could get an email from > someone at your company asking for more information. > > If that happens, I WILL be contacting your legal department on > copyright infringement and I HAVE retained the posts on this thread > as proof that I don't approve of my posts being used. > > Of course, you could sneak around the wishes that anyone else may > have by remembering to just not use my post but ignore the wishes of > anyone else, whether they've participated in thread or not. > > I don't think anyone else who practices copyright violation and gets > caught expected to get caught either. John, If you are of such strong opinion that simply publishing a URL (which is nothing more than an address) constitutes copyright violation, why did you ask us all to do it for you? ( http://tinyurl.com/8dn69 ) Do you also plan to threaten legal action against Google, Yahoo, and all the other search engines that publish links to your postings in response to keyword searches? Or have you just missed Jakob's point altogether, that he is not reproducing a single word of your copyright-protected public postings but is simply telling others that they exist and pointing to their location? I do not understand your reaction. -- Stuart Rogers Technical Communicator Phoenix Geophysics Limited Toronto, ON, Canada +1 (416) 491-7340 x 325 srogers at phoenix-geophysics dot com "Please reinstall the application you want to remove." --Microsoft Windows 'unInstall Specialist' Get Firefox! http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Stuart...that is not even close to what I object to. Posting a fully formed URL for easier use by list members within the approved list community and posting a URL in a source I know nothing about, for use by people I know nothing about, used in a way and context I know nothing about are two completely different things. I assume you said what you did to get a response, not because it made any sense. > nothing more than an address) constitutes copyright > violation, why did > you ask us all to do it for you? ( http://tinyurl.com/8dn69 ) John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Joe just said what I was thinking -- and more articulately than I think I might have been. Jakob's thought was good, but the implementation has risks that appear not to have been thouroughly considered. (No fault there; I suspect that we've all been in that position -- I know that I certainly have!) The fact that we are able to have this conversation shows a degree of consideration and civility that is really refreshing. Thanks! Grant ___ Grant Hogarth Equis International - A Reuters Company ghogarth at Equis.com / Grant.Hogarth at Reuters.com Direct: (+1) 801.270.3180 Main Fax: 801.265.3999 -Original Message- From: framers-bounces+grant.hogarth=reuters@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces+grant.hogarth=reuters.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Joe Malin Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:11 AM To: Jakob Fix; Framers List Subject: RE: add Framers list to gmane.org? Dear Jakob, I'm glad that you received useful information from the list. I have had exactly the same experience. I applaud your thought of sharing this bounty. However, using gmane.org, you can not do this fairly without contacting each person who signed up to Framers and asking each of them for permission to do it. If anyone refuses, you can not do it, period. I think other list users would agree. When anyone signs up for an e-mail list, they share information to that list. By doing that, they accept the list's privacy policy. I don't see a link to it on FrameUsers.com, but I'm sure one exists, if not in writing then in the minds of the lists' administrators. If you then put the e-mail list into any tool that exposes it beyond its intended audience, you've violated the privacy policy. I won't get into the legal aspects of this, since I'm sure another respondent will (if it hasn't happened already). Though your intentions are quite good, I am writing to remind you that you can't control gmane.org. If you want to publicize framers list, then publicize it and make individuals sign up for it. That forces them to break the barrier of anonymity. That is the right, honorable, and decent way to share information online. I hope that you will consider it in this light and do the right thing. Joe Joe Malin
add Framers list to gmane.org?--Spam implications
Jakob Fix wrote: > Sorry, just found out that Framers is archived publicly with exactly what I > need: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers at lists.frameusers.com/ And to get back to my point from yesterday, if you click on any of these links, the email is shown as "<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> " so that spammers can't get the address... John
add Framers list to gmane.org?
This is probably all true and just a small maybe its not. However, I'll bet that Jakob's employers wouldn't want to be the subject of finding out if it is or not and should his corporate attorney receive correspondence from me, they'll going to make Jakob question how important the information in that post really was. --- Mark Levitt wrote: > John, > > It is highly unlikely you would have any success in suing for > copyright > infringement over an archive of a message you sent to a public > mailing list. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
If it gets that far, it is only because the request that I made on this forum was ignored. Besides...that isn't extortion. That would be if I came out of nowhere and threatened harm. I'd only be responding to what I perceive as harm made first to me. > > going to make Jakob question how important the information in > > that post really was. > > Yes, you can bully him into doing what you want by > threatening them with some sort of harm. That's usually > called extortion... John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?--Spam implications
> And to get back to my point from yesterday, if you > click on any of these links, the email is shown as > "<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> " so that spammers can't get the > address... I'm not concerned about spammers. I'm concerned about a solution or process being proposed internally with me being attributed as part of the solution, to find out that the solution was not exactly right for that problem. I check and recheck my internal documentation to make sure it is as accurate as I can make it and I stand behind it if something goes wrong. Becoming part of a solution for a problems I know nothing about and not being able to participate in making sure it is accurate is something I'd like to avoid. Remember...the purpose of his using the posts was for internal support documentation. Do you want your solutions to be the fixes to problems that you know nothing about? Trust me...chances are you can be contacted with blocked email addresses and all. Give you an example. I "think" I know where Jakob Fix is from, gmail address not withstanding. Almost anyone can be located with a name, some text strings from a post, and the will to find out. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
add Framers list to gmane.org?
Your intent is to post information or a link to that information that
you know is protected, without consent from the owner. You ask how much
the link is worth. How much is a clear conscience worth or your
reputation with the folks on this list?
> How much is this link worth? And who does it belong to? Rick? The
> Framers mailing list? The mail-archive.com people? Just talking about
> the link, mind you.
>
> These are really interesting questions, and I won't think we will find
> a satisfying answer ("42" anyone?), but I also think nobody will be
> able to tell whether or not I put these links in an internal document
> or not. So I think I'm safe, for the moment :-).
>
> --
> cheers,
> Jakob.
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail
.com
>
> Send administrative questions to lisa at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
--
Art Campbell
art.campbell at gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
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add Framers list to gmane.org?
Wouldn't the issue be with mail-archive.com, not with anyone who happens
to publish a URL pointing to mail-archive.com. If mail-archive.com is
archiving posts and making them public without the permission of the
Framers list owners, then they are the ones in violation of copyright.
Someone posting a URL is not in violation of copyright.
Regards,
Seraphim
___
Seraphim Larsen CIG Operations / TPPE
Senior Technical Writer Intel Corporation
(480) 552-6504 Chandler, AZ
The content of this message is my personal opinion only.
Although I am an employee of Intel, the statements I make
here in no way represent Intel's position on the issue, nor
am I authorized to speak on behalf of Intel on this matter.
___
-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+theorem37=gmail@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+theorem37=gmail.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Art Campbell
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:44 AM
To: Jakob Fix
Cc: Framers List
Subject: Re: add Framers list to gmane.org?
I don't see anything in the archive site that implies that FM posts are
not
still copyright by the author.
Art
On 1/26/06, Jakob Fix wrote:
> Art,
>
> I know I should refrain from replying ... but ... can't ... must ...
answer. :-)
>
> On 26/01/06, Art Campbell wrote:
> > Jakob,
> >
> > I believe, if you read the copyright notice on frameusers.com, you
> > will see that ownership of posts is retained by the author. And I
> > would submit that because the content of the site is copyrighted as
a
> > body, that body-of-work further documents each posting as belonging
to
> > the author.
>
> Let's see:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers at lists.frameusers.com/msg00795.html
>
> How much is this link worth? And who does it belong to? Rick? The
> Framers mailing list? The mail-archive.com people? Just talking about
> the link, mind you.
>
> These are really interesting questions, and I won't think we will find
> a satisfying answer ("42" anyone?), but I also think nobody will be
> able to tell whether or not I put these links in an internal document
> or not. So I think I'm safe, for the moment :-).
>
> --
> cheers,
> Jakob.
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail
.com
>
> Send administrative questions to lisa at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
--
Art Campbell
art.campbell at gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
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m
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add Framers list to gmane.org?
I agree with John P.
add Framers list to gmane.org?--Spam implications
At 11:00 AM -0800 1/26/06, John Posada wrote: > > And to get back to my point from yesterday, if you >> click on any of these links, the email is shown as >> "<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> " so that spammers can't get the >> address... > >I'm not concerned about spammers. I'm concerned about a solution or >process being proposed internally with me being attributed as part of >the solution, to find out that the solution was not exactly right for >that problem. I check and recheck my internal documentation to make >sure it is as accurate as I can make it and I stand behind it if >something goes wrong. Becoming part of a solution for a problems I >know nothing about and not being able to participate in making sure >it is accurate is something I'd like to avoid Wow! I just can't relate to this perspective. Is this what living in a litigation-obsessed country does to one? >Remember...the purpose of his using the posts was for internal >support documentation. Do you want your solutions to be the fixes to >problems that you know nothing about? Trust me...chances are you can >be contacted with blocked email addresses and all. > >Give you an example. I "think" I know where Jakob Fix is from, gmail >address not withstanding. Almost anyone can be located with a name, >some text strings from a post, and the will to find out. The NSA is reading your mail and listening to your phone calls; Google, Yahoo and the like are building a profile on you. Is there anything of your privacy left to protect? - web
add Framers list to gmane.org?
John, It is highly unlikely you would have any success in suing for copyright infringement over an archive of a message you sent to a public mailing list. As the author of a text, you have certain rights regarding control over who can make copies, transcribe, etc. However copyright is not an absolute. There are circumstances in which someone can copy a text without the permission of the rights holder. At a glance, the two I can think of off the top of my head are fair use/fair dealing and implied license. First, people have a right to use a text under the fair use doctrine. There is no hard and fast rule over what constitutes fair use, but making an archival copy for providing access to others seems to fall within fair use. Google just won a case where they were being sued for copyright infringement over their archiving of web pages. They are a commercial company, they were archiving and displaying the entire page, not just a portion, and they still won on fair use grounds. Second, if you publish a text on a website, you retain the copyright, but when a person (in the use of a browser) requests that text and your web site sends it to them, you are, legally, granting an implied license to that person to make a copy of the text in order to display it on their screen (as making a copy is the only way for the browser to function). Similarly this is public mailing list. When you send a text to the mailing list, you are implicitly commanding that the text be copied and distributed to everyone on the list. Those copies are further copied into individual mailboxes, backup tapes, archives, etc. There is, along with that command, an implied licence for those copies to be made. Otherwise, you could send an e-mail to the list and then sue the list owner for copyright infringement for every copy of your message that was sent out. In short, RIAA and MPAA propaganda to the contrary, you as copyright holder don't have an absolute say over what happens to your text. All that being said, I'm not making a moral or ethical argument about this. I agree it might be good to respect the *wishes* of the list members about where their e-mails are archived, but that's not the same thing as having a *right* to prevent it. http://www.eff.org/IP/blake_v_google/google_nevada_order.pdf -- Mark > -Original Message- > From: > framers-bounces+mark.levitt=betfair.com at lists.frameusers.com > [mailto:framers-bounces+mark.levitt=betfair.com at lists.frameuse > rs.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Rogers > Sent: 26 January 2006 17:43 > To: John Posada > Cc: Framers List > Subject: Re: add Framers list to gmane.org? > > John Posada wrote: > >I could get an email from > > someone at your company asking for more information. > > > > If that happens, I WILL be contacting your legal department on > > copyright infringement and I HAVE retained the posts on > this thread as > > proof that I don't approve of my posts being used. > > > > Of course, you could sneak around the wishes that anyone > else may have > > by remembering to just not use my post but ignore the > wishes of anyone > > else, whether they've participated in thread or not. > > > > I don't think anyone else who practices copyright violation > and gets > > caught expected to get caught either. > > John, > > If you are of such strong opinion that simply publishing a > URL (which is nothing more than an address) constitutes > copyright violation, why did you ask us all to do it for you? > ( http://tinyurl.com/8dn69 ) Do you also plan to threaten > legal action against Google, Yahoo, and all the other search > engines that publish links to your postings in response to > keyword searches? > > Or have you just missed Jakob's point altogether, that he is > not reproducing a single word of your copyright-protected > public postings but is simply telling others that they exist > and pointing to their location? > > I do not understand your reaction. > > -- > Stuart Rogers > Technical Communicator > Phoenix Geophysics Limited > Toronto, ON, Canada > +1 (416) 491-7340 x 325 > > srogers at phoenix-geophysics dot com > > "Please reinstall the application you want to remove." > --Microsoft Windows 'unInstall Specialist' > > Get Firefox! > http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5 > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as mark.levitt at betfair.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/mark.levit > t%40betfair.com > > Send administrative questions to lisa at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > __ > __ > In order to protect our email recipients, Betfair use SkyScan from > MessageLabs to scan all Incoming and Outgoing mail for viruses. > > __ > __ >
add Framers list to gmane.org?
> From: John Posada [mailto:jposada01 at yahoo.com] > This is probably all true and just a small maybe its not. > However, I'll bet that Jakob's employers wouldn't want to be > the subject of finding out if it is or not and should his > corporate attorney receive correspondence from me, they'll > going to make Jakob question how important the information in > that post really was. Yes, you can bully him into doing what you want by threatening them with some sort of harm. That's usually called extortion...
