[Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
On 07/23/2009 05:38 PM, SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Hello, I was about to write a rather detailed interface/feature improvement suggestion about the brush editing feature in GIMP but then I thought that first it would be better to show you all this (incomplete) interface mock-up I made: Hi Akira, I suppose you haven't seen http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Paint_dynamics_specification ? / Martin Hi Martin, I'm interested discuss the relation between brushes and presets... and I don't if this could be in this discussion. I think that presets options are very useful and to have a directory to contains these (with some options to organize these). A preset is powerful, it can used for many brushes (paintbrush, pencil, airbrush ...). thanks americo -- jose a. g. (via www.gimpusers.com) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
On 07/26/2009 05:45 AM, SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote: This is something that I, as an user, would like to have. It also seems to save some screen space when editing on a notebook that can do only 1024x768 too :-) This is a smaller version I made which shows that at 1024x768 (and possibly at even lower resolutions) there's still much usable screen space: http://i29.tinypic.com/se3hg5.png I would just like to point out that the smallest screen size supported by GIMP is 1280x1024, so we don't need to make 1024x768 work or look good. / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Martin Nordholts wrote: I would just like to point out that the smallest screen size supported by GIMP is 1280x1024, so we don't need to make 1024x768 work or look good. Yes, I've read that many times and I would agree with it too since anything lower than that resolution is rather old gear. I was experimenting (but what about 1440x900 screens though? This seems to be a common size for smaller monitors and some notebooks. The vertical resolution is the problem here). I personally think that an interface which works well with lower resolutions while still maintaining good functionality and usable space is a good interface, by the way. It's useful for everybody to maximize screen space (*)! (*) Possibly by avoiding wasting vertical space. Vertical resolution, except for high end or otherwise specialized monitors, seems to have stabilized to around 1050 pixels. Nowadays getting a bigger monitor with a higher resolution doesn't necessarily mean that there will be much more useful (and precious) vertical space. Common resolutions for most consumer-grade LCD monitors are typically: 1280x1024 (5:4) 1440x1050 (4:3) 1680x1050 (16:10) 1980x1080 (16:9) The current trend is that the following resolutions and higher ones will tend to be available only on high-end, professional grade monitors: 1600x1200 (4:3) 1980x1200 (16:10) -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
On Sunday 26 July 2009 11:02:30 SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Martin Nordholts wrote: I would just like to point out that the smallest screen size supported by GIMP is 1280x1024, so we don't need to make 1024x768 work or look good. Yes, I've read that many times and I would agree with it too since anything lower than that resolution is rather old gear. I was experimenting (but what about 1440x900 screens though? This seems to be a common size for smaller monitors and some notebooks. The vertical resolution is the problem here). Id have to agree with this one. I namely own a laptop with this resolution. I havent had any problems using gimp on it tho and I hope it stays that way. --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Alexia Death wrote: Id have to agree with this one. I namely own a laptop with this resolution. I havent had any problems using gimp on it tho and I hope it stays that way. Yes, by keeping two dockable areas (left and right side of the screen) as by default, a 1440x900 resolution enables to normally work with GIMP without any particular problem. Finding myself desiring to use as much space as possible with my pen tablet and my screen, though, I've set up GIMP this way on my pc (only one dockable area, on the left), and lower vertical resolutions wouldn't work very well with this layout without losing a useful dockable window: http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6244/mygimplayout.png (note: this is a custom version of GIMP with two more tools, a blending brush, a pen tool with a stroke smoothing feature and other small things) This layout is similar in many ways to what I proposed in this thread. -- SHIRAKAWA akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
On Sunday 26 July 2009 11:02:30 SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Martin Nordholts wrote: I would just like to point out that the smallest screen size supported by GIMP is 1280x1024, so we don't need to make 1024x768 work or look good. Yes, I've read that many times and I would agree with it too since anything lower than that resolution is rather old gear. I was experimenting (but what about 1440x900 screens though? This seems to be a common size for smaller monitors and some notebooks. The vertical resolution is the problem here). Id have to agree with this one. I namely own a laptop with this resolution. I havent had any problems using gimp on it tho and I hope it stays that way. Tut, I have an eeepc, modern computer!!! Run gimp on its 800x480 screen no problems. Here's a screeenshot http://members.pcug.org.au/~rcook/images/eeepc800x480.png But you have to slightly mad, and should only be used as a form of self torture The 7 eeepc will never make the grade as a graphics tool :-) -- Owen ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Martin Nordholts wrote: I would just like to point out that the smallest screen size supported by GIMP is 1280x1024, so we don't need to make 1024x768 work or look good. SHIRAKAWA Akira writes: Yes, I've read that many times and I would agree with it too since anything lower than that resolution is rather old gear. Not at all -- there are thousands of netbooks sold in this year with 1024x600 resolution. I'm sure nobody considers a netbook an ideal graphics platform, but it's nice to be able to do a quick edit when you're traveling. And lots of small non-netbook laptops still have only 768 pixels vertically. But more important, 1024x768 is the max resolution supported by most projectors, so anyone trying to teach a GIMP class or give a talk needs that resolution. That may be some people's first exposure to GIMP, so I hope the UI doesn't change to be unusable on projectors, one of those programs where windows have a minimum height and disappear off the bottom of the screen. Currently GIMP works fine at 1024x768. ...Akkana ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Yes, my proposition is to unify all of those. And this is a mock-up of my idea of how the toolbar would end up looking like by merging many tools into one: http://i25.tinypic.com/2ihxyd5.png -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Hello, I tried putting together my ideas I wrote about in this thread, in a single image. The result is an Inkscape-like SDI GIMP I know that in the medium term one of the main goal will be an SDI interface, and that would work very well with the improvements I have in mind. New interface and improvements mock-up link: http://i31.tinypic.com/2qjd55k.png Work in progress (the images needs annotations), of course, and open to changes and suggestions. -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Hi! On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 8:19 AM, SHIRAKAWA Akirashirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: New interface and improvements mock-up link: http://i31.tinypic.com/2qjd55k.png This is something that I, as an user, would like to have. It also seems to save some screen space when editing on a notebook that can do only 1024x768 too :-) Best regards, Nelson ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote: This is something that I, as an user, would like to have. It also seems to save some screen space when editing on a notebook that can do only 1024x768 too :-) This is the annotated version I sent to the GIMP UI brainstorm blog. It doesn't add much more than what has been already wrote in this thread though: http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8928/sdigimp.png -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote: This is something that I, as an user, would like to have. It also seems to save some screen space when editing on a notebook that can do only 1024x768 too :-) This is a smaller version I made which shows that at 1024x768 (and possibly at even lower resolutions) there's still much usable screen space: http://i29.tinypic.com/se3hg5.png -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
I think this is a very good idea -- moving the 'different ways of painting' into brushes so that we don't need Paintbrush, Pencil, Airbrush but just one : 'Paintbrush'. I use GIMP mainly for pixel art, and I find that I really want the paintbrush/pencil/airbrush tool distinction to go away, so I can just select 1px hard edge brush and not care about tool, and be assured that I paint with hard edges and will therefore not smudge the picture. Mypaint (http://mypaint.intilinux.org) does it like you suggest and it works very well -- especially the way that you can toggle erasing, I think that is a very useful improvement to workflow. It's true that 'much more could be added' -- MyPaint gives an extreme amount of brush settings, but it is not punishing to the user because you do not need to negotiate these options most of the time (nor do they occupy any screen space usually). I would like to see the possibility to make specific brushes for erasing or anti-erasing. My experience with MyPaint suggests that this is a very simple and effective way to do erasing. One issue I have found in MyPaint is that of committing changes -- say I select the 1px brush, and change the spacing to 50%. should that be automatically saved to disk, or discarded at the end of the session? (MyPaint opts to discard these changes at the end of the session. I think GIMP should visually indicate 'dirty' brushes and give the option to save changes) MyPaint also makes Opacity into a property of brushes. My experience is that this often makes it much easier to quickly get to work. I am very interested to see more. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
- Leave the old tool selection concept to the new taggable brush selection window With a new generic brush system in most of the brush behavior is described by the brush settings, it's possible to leave the old tool selection concept to the new (and possibly even more improved) taggable brush presets window. What do you mean here? I think we need at least these paint tools: Paint (this would be able to do all of what Pencil, Paintbrush, and Airbrush do currently, and perhaps also Eraser), Ink (this does not use 'brushes'), Clone (also Heal?) , Perspective Clone , Blur/Sharpen, Dodge/Burn, Smudge. Do you really have a proposition to unify all of those, or do I misunderstand you? David ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
David Gowers wrote: What do you mean here? I think we need at least these paint tools: Paint (this would be able to do all of what Pencil, Paintbrush, and Airbrush do currently, and perhaps also Eraser), Ink (this does not use 'brushes'), Clone (also Heal?) , Perspective Clone , Blur/Sharpen, Dodge/Burn, Smudge. Do you really have a proposition to unify all of those, or do I misunderstand you? Yes, my proposition is to unify all of those. The idea is that 'brushes' would become something different than what it is now, more related to the physical proprieties of the tool used (= brush preset) than their meaning in the computer graphics world. Brushes in the 'brush' setting window would be of different, selectable types, like for example: - Brushless - Behavior as with the current ink tool - Parametric - Vector brushes with adjustable settings affecting their shape, possibly of many different types (and not only circular) - From clipboard - Bitmap brush - From file - Load a brush in bitmap/SVG format (future versions) - From path - Vector brush from a user defined path (future versions) Paint, eraser, smudge, clone, blur/sharpen, dodge/burn, clone, would be simply different brush modes selectable in the brush editing window, possibly in addition to others. Some would be mutually exclusive (since their effect would cancel one each other, some would stack. With my idea this way a brush can have different shapes, different physical behaviors, and different modes of operation. Of course, there would be plenty of built-in presets (since the amount of different options would be overwhelming for the average user) selectable from the brush preset Window. A few basic settings (size, opacity, spacing/rate and dynamics will remain easily selectable within the standard tool settings window. There are some usability details to be still clarified, but this is my general idea. Anyway, I agree that it would be similar in many ways than how MyPaint works (I swear I have never heard of this great application before!). (By the way, I think maybe it's better to explain this idea a bit a time while discussing with other users instead writing a long slab of text like I initially intended?) -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
David Gowers wrote: I considered that modes might be how you meant to implement it. That is definitely a large change in the way the user would use paint tools, we should get Peter Sikking's input here for sure. Most users wouldn't normally have to play with those details. There could be a standard set of brush presets grouped under various tags which would contain at least one version of each mode (by default for example a fuzzy and a standard circle variant, freely scalable). Here's a quick and dirty mock-up of what I have in mind: http://i29.tinypic.com/wikarn.png And we must make it visually clear that these are really properties of the brush, to avoid user confusion (A disclosure triangle would deal with this neatly) Yes, you're right. I haven't thought about this yet. Another thing is that we have actions named like tools-value-[12345]-(increase|decrease), etc which currently control some brush parameters (value-1 is opacity, usually). With your proposition, we should consider whether we need more actions so that the user can do more quick changes by keyboard (for example, I'd like to be able to toggle 'Apply Jitter' using a keyboard shortcut. And if 'Fade' (and fade length) were bindable to keyboard actions, they would be far more usable IMO. I think that anything that can be varied with pen tablet dynamics (I proposed that most numerically variable brush parameters would be) needs to have optional keyboard actions too. oh, that reminds me, I gave the wrong URL, the correct URL is: http://mypaint.intilinux.com Yes, I eventually figured it out and downloaded the Windows build. Definitely, it will get developed more, that way :) True! -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Hello, I was about to write a rather detailed interface/feature improvement suggestion about the brush editing feature in GIMP but then I thought that first it would be better to show you all this (incomplete) interface mock-up I made: http://i32.tinypic.com/1zwdwts.png Basically, in my vision, the brush editing dockable window would be much more detailed than what is now, containing most settings in common between brush-based tools (and also many new more), which is similar to what happens in other professional bitmap editing programs. Not only this would result in a more powerful brush editing process, but also in a significant reduction of icons in the toolbox. Many of the brush based tools that are there right now would become brush presets, which would work very well with the new tagging feature introduced in the GIT version of GIMP. Obviously backward compatibility with previous brush versions would need to be maintained in some way. If it turns out that brush editing in GIMP is actually going into this direction I'll be happy to describe much more in detail the interface and the behavior of the options and settings I have in mind (unfortunately I'm not an experienced programmer so I cannot explain in detail specific implementation details). -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
On 07/23/2009 05:38 PM, SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Hello, I was about to write a rather detailed interface/feature improvement suggestion about the brush editing feature in GIMP but then I thought that first it would be better to show you all this (incomplete) interface mock-up I made: Hi Akira, I suppose you haven't seen http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Paint_dynamics_specification ? / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Martin Nordholts wrote: Hi Akira, I suppose you haven't seen http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Paint_dynamics_specification ? Hi Martin, Yes, I've already seen that! The idea (which I have not yet described in the opening message) is that each Dynamics button (those with the arrow inside) next to almost every numerically variable brush parameter would open of these Paint Dynamics windows in the page you linked. There would not be need to do this for all desired parameters as the Paint dynamics window has already a drop box with all the configurable settings. What I am proposing anyway is not a new brush dynamics system (which is already well thought out from what I see), but a new brush *parameters* system/editing window. In mind, things like hard edge (antialiasing), jitter, fade, etc, would become brush parameters instead of being tool settings like they are now. There would be also more settings; some completely new and some which would be only slight variations or additions to the current system. Would you like me to write more in detail and be more specific regarding this? -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
On 07/23/2009 06:17 PM, SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Would you like me to write more in detail and be more specific regarding this? Absolutely, I mean why would you hold it back? BR, Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: Hello, I was about to write a rather detailed interface/feature improvement suggestion about the brush editing feature in GIMP but then I thought that first it would be better to show you all this (incomplete) interface mock-up I made: http://i32.tinypic.com/1zwdwts.png Very cool! I'd only add a save button on the bottom right so that this combination of settings could be saved as a named button if desired. Patrick ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Martin Nordholts wrote: Absolutely, I mean why would you hold it back? Because in its entirety my vision is an extensive change not only in brush selecting and editing compared to the current versions, but also in many aspects of the user interface (depending on how much of it would be implemented) and to explain it in detail it would require me some effort (maybe a few days) in both describing it in words (also because English is not my native language) and making graphic examples, which I have not prepared yet. If GIMP UI and brush development was going to another direction anyway, then there wouldn't be the need for such a detailed explanation, I think. Anyway, since I see that you seem interested I think I'll expand this idea. It will require me some time though. For now I can summarize it in a few points: - Make brush based tools as general as possible. Standard: Paint tool, eraser tool, clone/heal tool, tweak tool Advanced: Paint tool, clone/heal tool, tweak tool Extreme: Freehand/Geometric brush tool - Move most brush based tool settings in the brush settings window - Expand the brush settings window with more useful options - Leave the old tool selection concept to the new taggable brush selection window With a new generic brush system in most of the brush behavior is described by the brush settings, it's possible to leave the old tool selection concept to the new (and possibly even more improved) taggable brush presets window. This is similar somewhat in what happens in Corel Painter: there is only one brush tool, and many different brush presets grouped under different tags (Eraser, pencils, watercolor, clone tools, tweaking tools, etc). The most used presets can be dragged in a user specified window. In GIMP they could be docked to the new, lighter tool bar (which would by default have many less tools because many sharing the same functionality/concept would be merged into one). Oh, I ended up being more detailed than I thought! I'd like to expand more this idea though. I hope now it's more clear what I have in mind anyway. -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Improved brush editing interface mock-up
Patrick Horgan wrote: Very cool! I'd only add a save button on the bottom right so that this combination of settings could be saved as a named button if desired. Yes, as I wrote, it's still very incomplete and I made this basically to show that the brush editing window could include many of the settings currently in common between various brush-based tools. Of course much more could be added. -- SHIRAKAWA Akira ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
