Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
[Snip] PS: Karl, I actually found your instructions on setting up ESXi with FreeNAS and iSCSI last week when I tackled that very subject here at work - it was a very interesting read. I really think you can expand on it that though, if you ever get time :P [/Snip] Mauirixxx, Sorry, I missed this the first time around until someone else asked me about FreeNAS/ESX/ESXi and iSCSI and mentioned your post. Anyway, sure - i'm always down for nerdspeak, Grab me via email or via IM sometime... But for what it's worth, FreeNAS is a dog compared to OpenFiler for Cheap iSCSI :) Our entire infrastructure at TrashedGamers.com is built on ESXI VI3, and we can do pretty much everything with openfiler twice as fast than with FreeNAS (even the exotic stuff like vmotion/storage vmotion). The only reason I kept plugging away at FreeNAS and ESXI was because everywhere I read, people said it couldn't be done because of how it was implemented in bsd. While i'm an aging Unix guy at heart, there's no question that Openfiler (which is based on rpath linux) is way faster. As for anyone else on this list, if you've ever considered doing a full bare-metal esxi + iscsi implementation , I'll be more than happy to help anyone out. It's pretty amazing how much stuff you can do with the lowly q6600 CPU :) -Karl ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
lol @ NTP that's no good for accurate timing require on a frame by frame basis. Try running any code which will report time going backwards errors and you will see it happening, doesn't even have to be under load. Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com This isn't an issue under ESX or ESXI - at least if you enable NTP on the host, enable vmware tools on the guest, and disable built in NTP on the guests as well. It's part of VMW's best practices. Clock Skew under ESX/ESXI is a newbie mistake. Also - instructions in vmware are not emulated. Virtualization is NOT emulation. This is another common misconception that's nowhere near true. TrashedGamers runs completely on ESXI and Openfiler, and it's fine. No clock skew. No lag spikes. No timing issues. In fact, we can pack things far more densely under ESXI than we can under Native 2008. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
Right, like the sub-millisecond trading apps we have running on ESX at work in our production VMWare farm. Again. It's fine. It works. The hypervisor does its job, and it does it well, as long as you do all the reasonable things required to keep your clock from having more than one source for its time. The #1 source of clock skew in a VMware environment is forgetting about the internal hypervisor's timing threads and relying on built-in NTP clients. By default, Windows has its own internal NTP client. You have to disable that. In a windows domain, by default you're doing NTP between the client and the domain controllers to keep Kerberos ticketing in check. So on your DC's, you have to do the same thing. In an ESX farm, the server hosts should have a single source for pulling time, which is why they build an NTP client and server into the host hypervisor. There is no frame-by-frame timing requirements by HLDS, or whatever it is you're talking about. Everything in HLDS is spammed via UDP which can't even guarantee delivery, much less make any time requirements. So again, even 100 tick CS:S servers are absolutely fine in VMWare provided you disable all other NTP sources within the guest OS, and you rely on the VMWare tools to do the job, since that's the process that syncs with the hypervisor. If you do that, you will not see any clock skew, even at 100% cpu load. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland [kill...@multiplay.co.uk] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:05 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise lol @ NTP that's no good for accurate timing require on a frame by frame basis. Try running any code which will report time going backwards errors and you will see it happening, doesn't even have to be under load. Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com This isn't an issue under ESX or ESXI - at least if you enable NTP on the host, enable vmware tools on the guest, and disable built in NTP on the guests as well. It's part of VMW's best practices. Clock Skew under ESX/ESXI is a newbie mistake. Also - instructions in vmware are not emulated. Virtualization is NOT emulation. This is another common misconception that's nowhere near true. TrashedGamers runs completely on ESXI and Openfiler, and it's fine. No clock skew. No lag spikes. No timing issues. In fact, we can pack things far more densely under ESXI than we can under Native 2008. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
Any why would trading apps care if time went backwards they are not running world simulations they are simply doing processing, its done when its done. Forget NTP has nothing to do with this. You might want to have a look at VMware's documentation on the subject: http://www.vmware.com/pdf/vmware_timekeeping.pdf Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise Right, like the sub-millisecond trading apps we have running on ESX at work in our production VMWare farm. Again. It's fine. It works. The hypervisor does its job, and it does it well, as long as you do all the reasonable things required to keep your clock from having more than one source for its time. The #1 source of clock skew in a VMware environment is forgetting about the internal hypervisor's timing threads and relying on built-in NTP clients. By default, Windows has its own internal NTP client. You have to disable that. In a windows domain, by default you're doing NTP between the client and the domain controllers to keep Kerberos ticketing in check. So on your DC's, you have to do the same thing. In an ESX farm, the server hosts should have a single source for pulling time, which is why they build an NTP client and server into the host hypervisor. There is no frame-by-frame timing requirements by HLDS, or whatever it is you're talking about. Everything in HLDS is spammed via UDP which can't even guarantee delivery, much less make any time requirements. So again, even 100 tick CS:S servers are absolutely fine in VMWare provided you disable all other NTP sources within the guest OS, and you rely on the VMWare tools to do the job, since that's the process that syncs with the hypervisor. If you do that, you will not see any clock skew, even at 100% cpu load. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland [kill...@multiplay.co.uk] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:05 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise lol @ NTP that's no good for accurate timing require on a frame by frame basis. Try running any code which will report time going backwards errors and you will see it happening, doesn't even have to be under load. Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com This isn't an issue under ESX or ESXI - at least if you enable NTP on the host, enable vmware tools on the guest, and disable built in NTP on the guests as well. It's part of VMW's best practices. Clock Skew under ESX/ESXI is a newbie mistake. Also - instructions in vmware are not emulated. Virtualization is NOT emulation. This is another common misconception that's nowhere near true. TrashedGamers runs completely on ESXI and Openfiler, and it's fine. No clock skew. No lag spikes. No timing issues. In fact, we can pack things far more densely under ESXI than we can under Native 2008. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
I'm well aware of the doc. I had to know it backwards and forwards for the VCDX. Trading apps care because of timed trade executions that have to happen at very specific times/intervals or when triggered by a market event. What you're talking about Batch processing. That's not what capital markets trading apps do. HLDS/SRCDS is not a time sensitive app, meaning it does not require sub-second accuracy (much less single-digit ms accuracy), which makes it an excellent candidate for virtualization. You won't see any problems with HLDS/SRCDS under ESX/ESXI. Apparent time is more than enough for the app since the app seems to only care about time for one thing. Timestamps on logs :) -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:33 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise Any why would trading apps care if time went backwards they are not running world simulations they are simply doing processing, its done when its done. Forget NTP has nothing to do with this. You might want to have a look at VMware's documentation on the subject: http://www.vmware.com/pdf/vmware_timekeeping.pdf Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise Right, like the sub-millisecond trading apps we have running on ESX at work in our production VMWare farm. Again. It's fine. It works. The hypervisor does its job, and it does it well, as long as you do all the reasonable things required to keep your clock from having more than one source for its time. The #1 source of clock skew in a VMware environment is forgetting about the internal hypervisor's timing threads and relying on built-in NTP clients. By default, Windows has its own internal NTP client. You have to disable that. In a windows domain, by default you're doing NTP between the client and the domain controllers to keep Kerberos ticketing in check. So on your DC's, you have to do the same thing. In an ESX farm, the server hosts should have a single source for pulling time, which is why they build an NTP client and server into the host hypervisor. There is no frame-by-frame timing requirements by HLDS, or whatever it is you're talking about. Everything in HLDS is spammed via UDP which can't even guarantee delivery, much less make any time requirements. So again, even 100 tick CS:S servers are absolutely fine in VMWare provided you disable all other NTP sources within the guest OS, and you rely on the VMWare tools to do the job, since that's the process that syncs with the hypervisor. If you do that, you will not see any clock skew, even at 100% cpu load. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland [kill...@multiplay.co.uk] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:05 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise lol @ NTP that's no good for accurate timing require on a frame by frame basis. Try running any code which will report time going backwards errors and you will see it happening, doesn't even have to be under load. Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com This isn't an issue under ESX or ESXI - at least if you enable NTP on the host, enable vmware tools on the guest, and disable built in NTP on the guests as well. It's part of VMW's best practices. Clock Skew under ESX/ESXI is a newbie mistake. Also - instructions in vmware are not emulated. Virtualization is NOT emulation. This is another common misconception that's nowhere near true. TrashedGamers runs completely on ESXI and Openfiler, and it's fine. No clock skew. No lag spikes. No timing issues. In fact, we can pack things far more densely under ESXI than we can under Native 2008. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
My must say I haven't tried SRC itself but have tried others and they lag badly due, which I assume is due to use of comparison in timestamps and / or inaccurate sleep periods. With regards trading apps do they really require events to happen with ms accuracy? I cant picture a scenario for FD which would cause an issue if it happened +-a few ms. In contrast I would personally be very surprised if there was any game server that wouldn't see at least some detrimental effect from having inaccurate timing. You would only have to be doing any sort of time difference calculations in a simulation for an clock frequency variations / sleep variations to show noticeable issues. Its very similar to how game servers present issues when run on hardware with any sort of power saving, that makes use of variable clock frequencies, enabled. Would be great if some from Valve could comment on the potential issues for timestamps going backwards or inaccurate sleep intervals on a regular basis would be for HLDS / SRC based games? Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I'm well aware of the doc. I had to know it backwards and forwards for the VCDX. Trading apps care because of timed trade executions that have to happen at very specific times/intervals or when triggered by a market event. What you're talking about Batch processing. That's not what capital markets trading apps do. HLDS/SRCDS is not a time sensitive app, meaning it does not require sub-second accuracy (much less single-digit ms accuracy), which makes it an excellent candidate for virtualization. You won't see any problems with HLDS/SRCDS under ESX/ESXI. Apparent time is more than enough for the app since the app seems to only care about time for one thing. Timestamps on logs :) This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
Yeah, there's very different behaviors between the two major types of hypervisors (type 1 - or bare metal, and type 2, which requires a host). On a bare metal hypervisor, you're guaranteed high efficiency because the hypervisor has direct access to hardware. ESX and ESXI are examples of this. VMWare Server (formerly GSX), VMWare Workstation, etc - those use type 2 hypervisors. In this kind of scenario you *could* see problems with time-sensitive apps, but how bad these effects will be depends on the host OS you're using. Linux and Windows are both pretty decent here. In fact, the only time I've seen any kinds of problems with Type 2 hypervisors is when you do novel things like run VMWare Server on BSD with Linux Binary Compatibility. There's a lot of reasons to virtualize... Way too many to list here. But I can say with 100% confidence that SRCDS is completely well-behaved in ESX/ESXI under Linux, Server 2003 and Server 2008 guests (behaves on Server 2008 best, since MS is obviously aware that people are going to virtualize it whether MS supports it or not). -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 2:14 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise My must say I haven't tried SRC itself but have tried others and they lag badly due, which I assume is due to use of comparison in timestamps and / or inaccurate sleep periods. With regards trading apps do they really require events to happen with ms accuracy? I cant picture a scenario for FD which would cause an issue if it happened +-a few ms. In contrast I would personally be very surprised if there was any game server that wouldn't see at least some detrimental effect from having inaccurate timing. You would only have to be doing any sort of time difference calculations in a simulation for an clock frequency variations / sleep variations to show noticeable issues. Its very similar to how game servers present issues when run on hardware with any sort of power saving, that makes use of variable clock frequencies, enabled. Would be great if some from Valve could comment on the potential issues for timestamps going backwards or inaccurate sleep intervals on a regular basis would be for HLDS / SRC based games? Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I'm well aware of the doc. I had to know it backwards and forwards for the VCDX. Trading apps care because of timed trade executions that have to happen at very specific times/intervals or when triggered by a market event. What you're talking about Batch processing. That's not what capital markets trading apps do. HLDS/SRCDS is not a time sensitive app, meaning it does not require sub-second accuracy (much less single-digit ms accuracy), which makes it an excellent candidate for virtualization. You won't see any problems with HLDS/SRCDS under ESX/ESXI. Apparent time is more than enough for the app since the app seems to only care about time for one thing. Timestamps on logs :) This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
I can concur this also. When L4D demo was released, I was running 8 forked servers on a CentOS 5 VM under ESX. I could've ran more, but bandwidth usage was pissing off the people who pay that bill. I run my own personal srcds server under ESXi here in hawaii. Yes, HLSW DOES in fact report lag spikes - I haven't been able to track down why, but what really matters is performance IN GAME. No Lag spikes, AT ALL. No issues with timing or anything have popped up either. Granted, I've yet to try running any game servers under windows in a VM - I do all my personal game serving under linux - so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I've ran a BF2 server in a VM, Quake 4 server, COD4, and an ET:QW server. No problems. I know that's not even close to being a comprehensive list of games, but they are known for requiring some hardware to push them FWIW anyways. /me goes back to complaing about hlds / hlds_l mailing list shutdowns ... Mauirixxx PS: Karl, I actually found your instructions on setting up ESXi with FreeNAS and iSCSI last week when I tackled that very subject here at work - it was a very interesting read. I really think you can expand on it that though, if you ever get time :P -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Karl Weckstrom Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 10:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise Yeah, there's very different behaviors between the two major types of hypervisors (type 1 - or bare metal, and type 2, which requires a host). On a bare metal hypervisor, you're guaranteed high efficiency because the hypervisor has direct access to hardware. ESX and ESXI are examples of this. VMWare Server (formerly GSX), VMWare Workstation, etc - those use type 2 hypervisors. In this kind of scenario you *could* see problems with time-sensitive apps, but how bad these effects will be depends on the host OS you're using. Linux and Windows are both pretty decent here. In fact, the only time I've seen any kinds of problems with Type 2 hypervisors is when you do novel things like run VMWare Server on BSD with Linux Binary Compatibility. There's a lot of reasons to virtualize... Way too many to list here. But I can say with 100% confidence that SRCDS is completely well-behaved in ESX/ESXI under Linux, Server 2003 and Server 2008 guests (behaves on Server 2008 best, since MS is obviously aware that people are going to virtualize it whether MS supports it or not). -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 2:14 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise My must say I haven't tried SRC itself but have tried others and they lag badly due, which I assume is due to use of comparison in timestamps and / or inaccurate sleep periods. With regards trading apps do they really require events to happen with ms accuracy? I cant picture a scenario for FD which would cause an issue if it happened +-a few ms. In contrast I would personally be very surprised if there was any game server that wouldn't see at least some detrimental effect from having inaccurate timing. You would only have to be doing any sort of time difference calculations in a simulation for an clock frequency variations / sleep variations to show noticeable issues. Its very similar to how game servers present issues when run on hardware with any sort of power saving, that makes use of variable clock frequencies, enabled. Would be great if some from Valve could comment on the potential issues for timestamps going backwards or inaccurate sleep intervals on a regular basis would be for HLDS / SRC based games? Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I'm well aware of the doc. I had to know it backwards and forwards for the VCDX. Trading apps care because of timed trade executions that have to happen at very specific times/intervals or when triggered by a market event. What you're talking about Batch processing. That's not what capital markets trading apps do. HLDS/SRCDS is not a time sensitive app, meaning it does not require sub-second accuracy (much less single-digit ms accuracy), which makes it an excellent candidate for virtualization. You won't see any problems with HLDS/SRCDS under ESX/ESXI. Apparent time is more than enough for the app since the app seems to only care about time for one thing. Timestamps on logs :) This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
At 06:32 PM 2/7/2009, Chad Austin wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad Don't. Clocks inside of a VM don't sync up, and you'll see clock skewing under load. Real time stuff doesn't fair well inside of a VM either, because it's instructions are emulated.. ex: IIRC the cmpxchg is emulated and it's a factor of 5 slower than in native mode. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
The timing under VM's is not reliable enough for games. Basically time can and DOES go backwards as the hardware timer is also virtualised. This is much less apparent in single core VM's but in multi core VM's its a major problem. Regards Steve - Original Message - From: Chad Austin c...@pcchemical.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:32 PM Subject: [hlds] VMware Advise Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmas...@multiplay.co.uk. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
At 06:21 AM 2/8/2009, Steven Hartland wrote: The timing under VM's is not reliable enough for games. Basically time can and DOES go backwards as the hardware timer is also virtualised. This is much less apparent in single core VM's but in multi core VM's its a major problem. The newer VM's are supposed to provide timing via HPET, but I have yet to see this. (instead of depending on the hosts API's) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
I was going to run the Servers on the host operating system, alongside the VMs. I just have some stuff I want to run that is not that cpu intensive, but still manages to use the disk, and network enough that it locks up the computer. I want to put those in VMs, the game servers being in VM's would just be a nice bonus if it works. Was your comment directed at my game servers that are not running in the VM? Gary Stanley wrote: At 06:32 PM 2/7/2009, Chad Austin wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad Don't. Clocks inside of a VM don't sync up, and you'll see clock skewing under load. Real time stuff doesn't fair well inside of a VM either, because it's instructions are emulated.. ex: IIRC the cmpxchg is emulated and it's a factor of 5 slower than in native mode. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
This isn't an issue under ESX or ESXI - at least if you enable NTP on the host, enable vmware tools on the guest, and disable built in NTP on the guests as well. It's part of VMW's best practices. Clock Skew under ESX/ESXI is a newbie mistake. Also - instructions in vmware are not emulated. Virtualization is NOT emulation. This is another common misconception that's nowhere near true. TrashedGamers runs completely on ESXI and Openfiler, and it's fine. No clock skew. No lag spikes. No timing issues. In fact, we can pack things far more densely under ESXI than we can under Native 2008. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Gary Stanley Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:05 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise At 06:32 PM 2/7/2009, Chad Austin wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad Don't. Clocks inside of a VM don't sync up, and you'll see clock skewing under load. Real time stuff doesn't fair well inside of a VM either, because it's instructions are emulated.. ex: IIRC the cmpxchg is emulated and it's a factor of 5 slower than in native mode. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
Thank you for the feedback. Karl Weckstrom wrote: This isn't an issue under ESX or ESXI - at least if you enable NTP on the host, enable vmware tools on the guest, and disable built in NTP on the guests as well. It's part of VMW's best practices. Clock Skew under ESX/ESXI is a newbie mistake. Also - instructions in vmware are not emulated. Virtualization is NOT emulation. This is another common misconception that's nowhere near true. TrashedGamers runs completely on ESXI and Openfiler, and it's fine. No clock skew. No lag spikes. No timing issues. In fact, we can pack things far more densely under ESXI than we can under Native 2008. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Gary Stanley Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:05 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise At 06:32 PM 2/7/2009, Chad Austin wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad Don't. Clocks inside of a VM don't sync up, and you'll see clock skewing under load. Real time stuff doesn't fair well inside of a VM either, because it's instructions are emulated.. ex: IIRC the cmpxchg is emulated and it's a factor of 5 slower than in native mode. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] VMware Advise
Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
I have a lot of VM EXP. However, I have never run a server under a VM. I would be interested to see what really happens. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Chad Austin c...@pcchemical.com wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
I'm trying this right now, running ESXi on an IBM x-series box. I haven't really spent any time on looking into it, but initial results do show reduced and erratic frame rates within the server. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Gottlieb Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:37 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I have a lot of VM EXP. However, I have never run a server under a VM. I would be interested to see what really happens. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Chad Austin c...@pcchemical.com wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
I am trying it our now on VMware server, so worst case, I can run the servers on the host operating system, I will let you know what I find. DLinkOZ wrote: I'm trying this right now, running ESXi on an IBM x-series box. I haven't really spent any time on looking into it, but initial results do show reduced and erratic frame rates within the server. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Gottlieb Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:37 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I have a lot of VM EXP. However, I have never run a server under a VM. I would be interested to see what really happens. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Chad Austin c...@pcchemical.com wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
I've run both a GMod and a TF2 server on a VM, and I've found that they run quite fine. The host box being a Q6600 running CentOS. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Chad Austin Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 4:20 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I am trying it our now on VMware server, so worst case, I can run the servers on the host operating system, I will let you know what I find. DLinkOZ wrote: I'm trying this right now, running ESXi on an IBM x-series box. I haven't really spent any time on looking into it, but initial results do show reduced and erratic frame rates within the server. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Gottlieb Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:37 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I have a lot of VM EXP. However, I have never run a server under a VM. I would be interested to see what really happens. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Chad Austin c...@pcchemical.com wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
What OS do you run on the VM and are you running standard centos kernel or RT on host and guest if applicable? Chris_be wrote: I've run both a GMod and a TF2 server on a VM, and I've found that they run quite fine. The host box being a Q6600 running CentOS. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Chad Austin Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 4:20 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I am trying it our now on VMware server, so worst case, I can run the servers on the host operating system, I will let you know what I find. DLinkOZ wrote: I'm trying this right now, running ESXi on an IBM x-series box. I haven't really spent any time on looking into it, but initial results do show reduced and erratic frame rates within the server. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Gottlieb Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:37 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I have a lot of VM EXP. However, I have never run a server under a VM. I would be interested to see what really happens. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Chad Austin c...@pcchemical.com wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] VMware Advise
The VM was running Server 2003, and standard centos kernel. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of [??R] The-/iller Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 5:53 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise What OS do you run on the VM and are you running standard centos kernel or RT on host and guest if applicable? Chris_be wrote: I've run both a GMod and a TF2 server on a VM, and I've found that they run quite fine. The host box being a Q6600 running CentOS. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Chad Austin Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 4:20 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I am trying it our now on VMware server, so worst case, I can run the servers on the host operating system, I will let you know what I find. DLinkOZ wrote: I'm trying this right now, running ESXi on an IBM x-series box. I haven't really spent any time on looking into it, but initial results do show reduced and erratic frame rates within the server. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Gottlieb Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:37 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] VMware Advise I have a lot of VM EXP. However, I have never run a server under a VM. I would be interested to see what really happens. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Chad Austin c...@pcchemical.com wrote: Does anyone have experience using VMware with source engine game servers? I have heard it has timing issues and would not be acceptable for scrim servers due to lag spikes, is this true? -Chad ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
