Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 07.03.2018 um 16:17 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: I am going nuts. MiKTeX released now some fixes to its package handling but they arrived broken on the package servers. Therefore since today the solution we found for LyX in combination with MiKTeX doesn't work. This was not correct. In fact MiKTeX released some bug fixes and I needed to adapt the solution with the update accordingly. I released a new installer version 4 which does this: http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/ I tested it a lot today and it works for me with all cases I can test. Scott, from my point of view you can announce the Windows release of LyX 2.3.0 with this version 4 of the installer. sorry for all the inconvenience and regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 07.03.2018 um 18:16 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes: OK, I see now. But wasn't there something equivalent before that? The console is a new concept. Before there exist 2 different programs, one for the settings, one for the package handling. the new console unites them. What makes problems is this big update of the whole packaging system. Moreover, there were some bugs in the new package handling system. For example users having consecutive semicolon ";;" in their PATH environment variable could not use MiKTeX after touching it (by installing a package etc.) However, this update is the biggest since 7 years. Unfortunately it coincides with the LyX release. I think the next days most problems and bugs will be fixed. I understand that distributions are user's choice, but it is a pity that we can be so vulnerable to other people's bug. That is a general problem of LyX. We rely on many third-party programs. If one has a bug, users get errors and blame of course LyX. We cannot say e.g. "sorry that you cannot compile your document anymore because of a bug in ImageMagick". The users' problem is to get his document to compile. If we are guilty or a third-party program, doesn't fix the users' problem. We had problems in the past with Ghostscript, ImageMagick and even Python. Now we have one with MiKTeX. After the installer for 2.3.0 I will provide an installer that uses Python 3.6 instead of 2.7. Since a bug in there can break LyX, I have to be very careful and chose this 2-stage upgrade: first LyX, IM and GS, then keep all third-party progs and only upgrade Python. versions? I see that you often try to update miktex as soon as possible, but is it wise? I tried this. But the oldest available miktex installer from October is exactly the one having the bug that makes now problems. What will work is of course that people reinstall MikTeX using the LyX bundle installer because this installs a MikTeX from February containing the new MiKTeX console. But a reinstallation means people loose their personal settings. With the version 3 of the installer I think we found the best possible solution where people can kep their settings and get a working LyX. I think that explaining people how to install LaTeX themselves is the way to go. My experience (even at the university with students) shows that this is too complex for users. They don't accept to invest an hour just to install a program. In the past there was no other choice and that was why Angus and I developed the Win installer. The Win installer consists of so much code because there are many different cases to respect (has the user admin privileges, is Perl, Python etc., already installed. What settings are there used, What is in the PATH and the local PATH variable, are there other LyX installations that should be kept functional, ...) The example of rupee that you gave later in your message is typically an example of things going wrong. You cannot afford to use your time to fix these issues. MiKTeX doesn't change all the time. The current situation is an exception. Concerning the packages, yes I think it was worth it to invest time. This work is done and don't require much maintenance. Only for every major LyX release I check if the package list is still up to date or if new packages must be added or if some need to be renamed. This can be done within an hour. it is so important, let's tell people to install the full textlive version and forget about any other problem. Yes, this might be an option. The question is if users would accept to download 3 - 4 GB. With the LyX bundle installer the have already to download about 250 MB for the installer and 50 MB for the packages. So all in all about 300 MB. For a fresh installation and proper DSL speed the whole installation can be done in 5 minutes. For the full TeXLive I don't know (might depend in the mirror servers). Why not use a distribution that has it all, to begin with? Then you need the full TeXLive or the full MiKTeX. Both is possible, but see above for the acceptance. What the LyX bundle installer uses is a compromise as consequence of many discussions with users in the past. MiKTeX provides a basic installation. But as it is a basic distribution, it cannot contain special packages. LyX grew and uses more special packages for its new features. Therefore a basic LaTeX distribution cannot contain everything people might want to use in LyX. On the other hand people opted not to be forced to install several GB to get a full distribution. I think, as in most situations, one need to use a compromise. And compromises have disadvantages. Incidentally, this is why the software should not update itself during these sessions. In the past it did not because only the packages could be updated. Unless you either forced an update in the LyX installer or MiKTeX itself, nothing happened because the package handling system stayed
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 07.03.2018 um 17:27 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: I must admit that I haven't tested the "never" case for a long time. I tested this now and the installer correctly respects the setting "never". So never means never. You don't get any updates nor packages if you really don't want this. Configuring LyX seems to do nothing because the "never" option prevents MiKTeX to install missing packages and thus to update its build system. However, the "never" settings is for users who know about packages and how they are handled. regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > I think that explaining people how to install LaTeX themselves is the way > to go. You cannot bear the weight of basically maintaining a LaTeX > distribution on top of the ever changing MikTex. The example of rupee that > you gave later in your message is typically an example of things going > wrong. You cannot afford to use your time to fix these issues. If it is so > important, let's tell people to install the full textlive version and > forget about any other problem. > > To say the same thing differently, one design problem that I see is that > you are starting from Miktex, that tries to keep the TeX installation to a > minimum, and than take great pains to add everything that may be useful on > top of it. Why not use a distribution that has it all, to begin with? I was trying to avoid this thread but this question occured to me many times seeing not just this but also previous discussions when something broke in MikTex. What Uwe is doing is sort of package management for living LaTeX distribution which is demanding task on its own and there is no surprise he is going nuts from all related problems. Although there is possibility to have live updates for TeXlive many linux distributions simply package one fixed version and it does not seem to harm productivity in any way. After year or two they simply bump to new version of the whole monster again. I would go even further to claim that its the reason why things 'just work' after installing LyX on linux and LyX packagers can still spend their sunny days with sun instead of sitting in front of bug tracker system of LaTeX distribution... They simply leave latex ppl time to figure out their problem with newest versions and use stable and older version. Is there some *full* MikTex/TeXlive installation bundle for Windows which is stable? If yes how big is it in terms of MB/GB? Would it significantly increase our current installer-bundle? I also do not propose this as 2.3.0 solution but it seems conceptually wrong that Uwe or whoever is preparing LyX package for Windows should spend weeks figuring out latex distribution issues and delay the release process for this reason. Pavel
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Le 07/03/2018 à 17:27, Uwe Stöhr a écrit : In general: I have no problem in being criticized. But I have a problem that I am talking directly to the MiKTeX developer to find a solution and when I do what he proposes you are telling me that it can be done better. I think you are indeed the one who knows how to tweak the current system to make it work. However, it is good to have an external eye that can question some of the basic decisions made for this installer. I have done my share of clever systems that work magically except when they break down miserably. Now I try to think more in terms of robustness. Miktex documentation explicitly recommends to use the Miktex Console to get updates, and does not set the update mechanism to automatic. The MiKTeX Console (introduced around end of January) is the new update mechanism. Before, there was no MiKTeX Console. Also many new options you see in the MiKTeX docs didn't exist before and can therefore not be used for LyX users having older installations. OK, I see now. But wasn't there something equivalent before that? This is why we should not change a system that works See my last mail in this thread. It is not LyX that breaks something, it is MiKTeX itself. This is where we have to wonder whether we shall rely on a system that is so fragile. I understand that distributions are user's choice, but it is a pity that we can be so vulnerable to other people's bug. We try to be very careful with our stable releases, and then we can have catastrophic results due to always having the latest version of whatever package someone releases. Yes ;-) Also very good to know. If you want to reproduce what I am talking about: - uninstall MiKTeX - install LyX 2.3.0RC1 bundle (Contains old MiKTeX installer from October); deny to update MiKTeX - reconfigure LyX or try to compile a LyX file that uses a package you don't have yet. I am not sure that I will find enough time in front of this particular computer to try that. Today I found one of the problems, which is funny: Some MiKTeX versions use its update program for the update. During the update they try to delete this program (itself) which is of course impossible. As result you get a MiKTeX with still all packages there but latex cannot find them anymore because all links to them were not reset in the new package system. This is alas not funny at all... Can't we rely on old-and-trusty miktex versions? I see that you often try to update miktex as soon as possible, but is it wise? Sure, but then please start your Win laptops and try installing different MiKTeX versions to see the different results LyX users will get. Some won't see any problems, some will get a completely broken MiKTeX. Testing this costs hours - it took a long time before I could the first time reproduce what users reported back on our mailing lists. I have to admit that I will find not the time to do it. I understand how time consuming this testing is, nd I am grateful that you spend time on it. But then we must find a way to reduce this burden on you. What I am proposing is to ask ourselves: "where did we got it wrong?". Well, the OS of choice of elegant people is macOS and you cannot argue that they do not care that thing do not "just work". Yet, they install MacTeX, which come in only one size (3G), maybe the 500M of extras if they are very fussy and they are happy with it. It does not update, but once a year one can install a new one. I won't discuss about OSes. Users made their choice. I focus on Win users. They have 2 options: - they have background knowledge or the time to learn about LaTeX. They can setup TeXLive or MiKTeX as they like since they know what a package is. - they just need a working LyX and are not interested in how things work behind LyX I think that explaining people how to install LaTeX themselves is the way to go. You cannot bear the weight of basically maintaining a LaTeX distribution on top of the ever changing MikTex. The example of rupee that you gave later in your message is typically an example of things going wrong. You cannot afford to use your time to fix these issues. If it is so important, let's tell people to install the full textlive version and forget about any other problem. To say the same thing differently, one design problem that I see is that you are starting from Miktex, that tries to keep the TeX installation to a minimum, and than take great pains to add everything that may be useful on top of it. Why not use a distribution that has it all, to begin with? I understand that is not a solution for the 2.3.0 installer, which I am not qualified to fix. I work in the machine building industry. I have clever colleagues, some with a Ph.D. So they are not children, but they have to focus on their job. For example, recently I was informed on Monday that on Wednesday the operation manual of a new device must be ready. These are
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 06.03.2018 um 16:37 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes: In general: I have no problem in being criticized. But I have a problem that I am talking directly to the MiKTeX developer to find a solution and when I do what he proposes you are telling me that it can be done better. The goal is definitely not that you become quiet, which would mean "This is my last word. Either you accept my solution or you have no windows installer". No, it is was only my last attempt to explain the situation. I have the feeling that I can write pages but are not understood. What if the user set "Install missing packages on the fly: never"? Do you still insist that this user should have to do a double update that was explicitly opted-out? You can of course do this. Then you could assure that your LaTeX system won't be updated. The consequence is that if you have a missing package you cannot install it, because to do this, the package handling will be updated. I cannot state what happens if you set "never" and configuring LyX. The reconfiguration invokes MiKTeX to update internally file links, to recreate font files etc. I'll try this out after LyX 2.3.0 was finally released because I am running out of time right now. I must admit that I haven't tested the "never" case for a long time. What is not clear to me is why we change the default update mechanism. Because of the bug. Again, the installer for LyX 2.3.0 acts different than all installers before because of this. Miktex documentation explicitly recommends to use the Miktex Console to get updates, and does not set the update mechanism to automatic. The MiKTeX Console (introduced around end of January) is the new update mechanism. Before, there was no MiKTeX Console. Also many new options you see in the MiKTeX docs didn't exist before and can therefore not be used for LyX users having older installations. This is why we should not change a system that works See my last mail in this thread. It is not LyX that breaks something, it is MiKTeX itself. I started with Windows 2.0, then 3.0, 3.1, etc. up to windows 10 (OK, I skipped a few). These days I use windows 7 and windows 10 on a daily/weekly basis. Do I qualify? Yes ;-) Also very good to know. If you want to reproduce what I am talking about: - uninstall MiKTeX - install LyX 2.3.0RC1 bundle (Contains old MiKTeX installer from October); deny to update MiKTeX - reconfigure LyX or try to compile a LyX file that uses a package you don't have yet. As currently some MiKTeX packages are incompletely uploaded to the mirror servers, maybe today you won't notice anything because every MiKTeX update/installation action is currently not working. As soon as this is working again (hopefully tomorrow) it might be (not for sure) that you get a broken MiKTeX. Today I found one of the problems, which is funny: Some MiKTeX versions use its update program for the update. During the update they try to delete this program (itself) which is of course impossible. As result you get a MiKTeX with still all packages there but latex cannot find them anymore because all links to them were not reset in the new package system. This particular bug existed only during a certain time period, therefore especially users with an older LyX/MiKTeX installation won't see this. I understand how frustrating the thing can be. But working alone on this is probably the source of many issues. It is never good to have an own niche where only one voice counts. We are a team, and this is where our strength comes from. Sure, but then please start your Win laptops and try installing different MiKTeX versions to see the different results LyX users will get. Some won't see any problems, some will get a completely broken MiKTeX. Testing this costs hours - it took a long time before I could the first time reproduce what users reported back on our mailing lists. Well, the OS of choice of elegant people is macOS and you cannot argue that they do not care that thing do not "just work". Yet, they install MacTeX, which come in only one size (3G), maybe the 500M of extras if they are very fussy and they are happy with it. It does not update, but once a year one can install a new one. I won't discuss about OSes. Users made their choice. I focus on Win users. They have 2 options: - they have background knowledge or the time to learn about LaTeX. They can setup TeXLive or MiKTeX as they like since they know what a package is. - they just need a working LyX and are not interested in how things work behind LyX The latter is the vast majority. Are these people so different to what you describe as windows users? We are not talking about children here. I work in the machine building industry. I have clever colleagues, some with a Ph.D. So they are not children, but they have to focus on their job. For example, recently I was informed on Monday that on Wednesday the operation manual of a new device must
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:17:05PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 04.03.2018 um 19:36 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: > > > I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX > > developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be > > available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's > > release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above. > > I am going nuts. MiKTeX released now some fixes to its package handling but > they arrived broken on the package servers. Therefore since today the > solution we found for LyX in combination with MiKTeX doesn't work. I am > sorry to say that I need to wait another day until the packages are fixed on > the servers. > > I cannot remember so many troubles but that is life. > > sorry and regards No problem, thanks for keeping updated on the MiKTeX situation. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 03:37:44PM +, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > > Either invest time to try it out on Windows on your own or trust me and > > the MiKTeX developer. I have other things to do on a sunny day than to > > sit at home like a nerd with 3 different PCs to test different > > installations, update states etc. to find a solution. > > I understand how frustrating the thing can be. But working alone on this is > probably the source of many issues. It is never good to have an own niche > where only one voice counts. We are a team, and this is where our strength > comes from. A big +1. Uwe, I'm not sure what you mean by "trust", but I think for the way you used that word, I do not trust any LyX developer, even though every one of them knows more about computers and programming than I do. I always ask questions. I'm sure I have annoyed and taken the time of every one on this list with questions. I also do not trust myself in that sense. That's why I always try to ask the group for feedback, or if other developers disagree with me I try my best to understand their points, even if it takes me a lot of time. It's so important to work as a group and to try to help everyone understand. Thanks for all of your time and explanations on this issue. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 04.03.2018 um 19:36 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above. I am going nuts. MiKTeX released now some fixes to its package handling but they arrived broken on the package servers. Therefore since today the solution we found for LyX in combination with MiKTeX doesn't work. I am sorry to say that I need to wait another day until the packages are fixed on the servers. I cannot remember so many troubles but that is life. sorry and regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 01:44:38PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Here is my last attempt to explain the situation. Then I will be quiet I hope that we can continue this discussion. Specifically, I think the proposal to give a message and ask the user is reasonable. Thanks for all of your time on this issue. > > The point is that we do not affect people's systems without permission. > > Otherwise, we get reports like > > https://latex.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19=30919 > > which is unacceptable. > > Why are you claiming that the Win installer is to blame here? My point was rather to focus on how Stefan did not even imagine the possibility that LyX could change the LaTeX system. You had asked for qualified Windows users, and it is true that I am not. But he seems qualified to me. By the way, he has written a few books on LaTeX, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/LaTeX-Beginners-Guide-Stefan-Kottwitz/dp/1847199860 Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Le 06/03/2018 à 14:44, Uwe Stöhr a écrit : Here is my last attempt to explain the situation. Then I will be quiet because I already invested now about 20 hours in nothing else than this. The goal is definitely not that you become quiet, which would mean "This is my last word. Either you accept my solution or you have no windows installer". Here are the principal use cases for LyX users: A: I am a happy user of LyX 2.2.x and are not interested to upgrade anything. If I get now a document from a colleague containing a LaTeX package I don't have yet installed, MiKTeX detects it when you compile the document. To be able to install the missing package, it needs to update its package handling system. What if the user set "Install missing packages on the fly: never"? Do you still insist that this user should have to do a double update that was explicitly opted-out? As I understand it, the installer sets installation of packages to "automatic" by default (it is _not_ the miktex default), but does respect the setting "no" that the user may have set. It should be at least possible not to do any update if the user explicitly said "no" to updates. What is not clear to me is why we change the default update mechanism. Miktex documentation explicitly recommends to use the Miktex Console to get updates, and does not set the update mechanism to automatic. Reality is not what we wish. LyX users want to get an output of the documents. To get this, third-party programs are necessary like ImageMagick, Python, LaTeX, Ghostscript etc. If a third-party program has a bug, LyX users don't get an output. This is why we should not change a system that works, in case it breaks the program. If my TeX installation breaks when upgrading to the new Ubuntu Clunky Coyote, I can accept that. I am prepared to it because I am updating my system. If TeX breaks because I am typesetting a document, then it is happening at the worst possible time. I _do_ need LyX not to break at this particular time. At last a personal statement: I read in the discussions from time to time that some are not familiar with Windows but nevertheless they state what is right or wrong in their opinion. That is no base for a discussion. I started with Windows 2.0, then 3.0, 3.1, etc. up to windows 10 (OK, I skipped a few). These days I use windows 7 and windows 10 on a daily/weekly basis. Do I qualify? Either invest time to try it out on Windows on your own or trust me and the MiKTeX developer. I have other things to do on a sunny day than to sit at home like a nerd with 3 different PCs to test different installations, update states etc. to find a solution. I understand how frustrating the thing can be. But working alone on this is probably the source of many issues. It is never good to have an own niche where only one voice counts. We are a team, and this is where our strength comes from. I also miss the view on what users need the most: a LyX that just works with all its features. They don't want to learn what a package is, how it is handled, what the cryptic package names like "marvosym" stand for, what packages LyX needs for what feature etc. Well, the OS of choice of elegant people is macOS and you cannot argue that they do not care that thing do not "just work". Yet, they install MacTeX, which come in only one size (3G), maybe the 500M of extras if they are very fussy and they are happy with it. It does not update, but once a year one can install a new one. Are these people so different to what you describe as windows users? We are not talking about children here. As user I need a system with which I can just write my text and focus on that. Yes, and the key to that is not to update a running system too often. If I like e.g. to wavy underline some words, I just want to do this and not to get cryptic error messages that a package is not available. How should I know that the missing package is necessary because of my wavy underline? People who use wavy underlines deserve whatever happen ;) JMarc
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 06.03.2018 um 04:47 schrieb Richard Heck: What? So I should deliver a LyX installer leading to a broken LaTeX that can only be fixed by reinstalling MiKTeX? That cannot be the goal! The proposal is to *abort* the LyX installation, if the user does not want to update. You can explain in a dialog that LyX will not work otherwise. But you cannot screw with their system without their permission. Really. Here is my last attempt to explain the situation. Then I will be quiet because I already invested now about 20 hours in nothing else than this. Who is affected by the following?: - most users having either installed MiKTeX the first time between October and maybe mid January this year (independent if LyX was installed too) - many users who use MiKTeX and updated it in the time between October and maybe mid January. They might run an update on their own or they compiled a LyX file using a missing package. Here are the principal use cases for LyX users: A: I am a happy user of LyX 2.2.x and are not interested to upgrade anything. If I get now a document from a colleague containing a LaTeX package I don't have yet installed, MiKTeX detects it when you compile the document. To be able to install the missing package, it needs to update its package handling system. Due to a bug this update can break LaTeX completely and the user is lost. None of his LyX document will be compilable anymore. The only solution for him is to reinstall MiKTeX and he looses all his personal settings, packages, BibTeX style files etc. and need to set them up again. Most users don't care about the system behind LyX, they just see that their LyX doesn't work anymore. B: I want to try out LyX 2.3.0. The installer tells me that I must upgrade MiKTeX but I deny this. When LyX is started the first time after the installation, it runs configure.py which in turn executes chklatex.ltx. This triggers MiKTeX to check for packages, missing packages will be installed, mf-files of fonts will be created etc. To be able to do this, MiKTeX will update its package handling system. The result is the same as for use case A. C: I want to try out LyX 2.3.0. and use version 3 of the LyX for Windows installer. The installer forces an update of the package handling system at the right step and at this step it has the chance to repair a broken MiKTeX system and will do so. This solution was developed by the MiKTeX developer. As result, I get a fully functional LyX, all my personal MiKTeX settings, packages etc. will be kept. If this doesn't make the situation clear, I give up. > The point is that we do not affect people's systems without permission. > Otherwise, we get reports like > https://latex.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19=30919 > which is unacceptable. Why are you claiming that the Win installer is to blame here? These claims are annoying. At first the LyX installer available in January did not update MiKTeX if you don't want to. The problem described by the bug report is that he uses 2 different MiKTeX installations the same time, one is set up for all users, one only for the current user. Therefore they interfere. Maybe he installed winedt only for the current user and LyX for all users or the opposite. Hard to say, but of course if you have set up MiKTeX for all users you cannot overwrite its settings for the current user with another instance of MiKTeX without getting problems. > As Scott said some time ago, it is very strange indeed if LyX's basic > functionality breaks because of a change in some external program's > package-handling mechanism. LyX should not be that entwined with > external programs. Reality is not what we wish. LyX users want to get an output of the documents. To get this, third-party programs are necessary like ImageMagick, Python, LaTeX, Ghostscript etc. If a third-party program has a bug, LyX users don't get an output. This happens from time to time. In the past there were e.g. often issues with ImageMagick and now we have a severe bug in MiKTeX. In most cases you are not involved because if there is for example a bug in a third-party program I just release a new installer with a version of the third-party program that is known to work. - At last a personal statement: I read in the discussions from time to time that some are not familiar with Windows but nevertheless they state what is right or wrong in their opinion. That is no base for a discussion. Either invest time to try it out on Windows on your own or trust me and the MiKTeX developer. I have other things to do on a sunny day than to sit at home like a nerd with 3 different PCs to test different installations, update states etc. to find a solution. I also miss the view on what users need the most: a LyX that just works with all its features. They don't want to learn what a package is, how it is handled, what the cryptic package names like "marvosym" stand for, what
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 03/05/2018 07:33 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 05.03.2018 um 23:46 schrieb Richard Heck: > >> Uwe, even if LyX will not work without the updated installation, we >> CANNOT update the user's LaTeX installation without asking for >> permission---which means giving them the option to cancel the entire >> install. Otherwise, we can break things, as in the thread Scott posted. > > What? So I should deliver a LyX installer leading to a broken LaTeX > that can only be fixed by reinstalling MiKTeX? That cannot be the goal! The proposal is to *abort* the LyX installation, if the user does not want to update. You can explain in a dialog that LyX will not work otherwise. But you cannot screw with their system without their permission. Really. The obvious thing here is to ask about this before doing anything else. Do not touch ANYTHING until you have permission to proceed. > I don't get your point. What is the problem of updating a package > handling system? The point is that we do not affect people's systems without permission. Otherwise, we get reports like https://latex.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19=30919 which is unacceptable. > Under Linux you also have to do this if you want to be able to obtain > packages in future. > In this case it is even worse, whenever you you decide to update > packages by yourself and invoke MiKTeX's update manually you break > your package handling system. So also LyX 2.2.3 users can get a broken > system even without installing LyX. But the consequence is that they > then cannot user LyX anymore. This sounds like a MiKTeX bug that we do not need to make worse. Frankly, I find the whole Windows packaging system deeply worrying. We do not do anything like this on OSX---package some TeX distribution with our own code---and I am not sure you understand the way Linux works. For one thing, there is no single way Linux works, since all of this is highly dependent upon the distribution. And note: If some Linux distro messes this up, then WE do not get blamed for it, because WE do not release those packages. As Scott said some time ago, it is very strange indeed if LyX's basic functionality breaks because of a change in some external program's package-handling mechanism. LyX should not be that entwined with external programs. Richard
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 05.03.2018 um 23:46 schrieb Richard Heck: Uwe, even if LyX will not work without the updated installation, we CANNOT update the user's LaTeX installation without asking for permission---which means giving them the option to cancel the entire install. Otherwise, we can break things, as in the thread Scott posted. What? So I should deliver a LyX installer leading to a broken LaTeX that can only be fixed by reinstalling MiKTeX? That cannot be the goal! Moreover, if users are really forced to reinstall MiKTeX they loose all personal settings, packages etc. So what is preferable, a system that keeps all your personal settings, packages and that works of a broken system where you loose all personal settings? I don't get your point. What is the problem of updating a package handling system? Under Linux you also have to do this if you want to be able to obtain packages in future. In this case it is even worse, whenever you you decide to update packages by yourself and invoke MiKTeX's update manually you break your package handling system. So also LyX 2.2.3 users can get a broken system even without installing LyX. But the consequence is that they then cannot user LyX anymore. regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 03/05/2018 03:18 PM, racoon wrote: > On 05.03.2018 20:16, Uwe Stöhr wrote: >> Am 05.03.2018 um 19:37 schrieb racoon: >> >>> However, it does not give the user a choice on whether to update >>> MiKTeX or not. >> >> Yes, that is correct and I explained now in several mails why and >> that there is no other option. > > Sorry, I have a bit of a hard time following the discussion. > > Why is forcing the user to make a choice between going ahead with the > setup and cancelling no option? Uwe, even if LyX will not work without the updated installation, we CANNOT update the user's LaTeX installation without asking for permission---which means giving them the option to cancel the entire install. Otherwise, we can break things, as in the thread Scott posted. Richard
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 05.03.2018 20:16, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Am 05.03.2018 um 19:37 schrieb racoon: However, it does not give the user a choice on whether to update MiKTeX or not. Yes, that is correct and I explained now in several mails why and that there is no other option. Sorry, I have a bit of a hard time following the discussion. Why is forcing the user to make a choice between going ahead with the setup and cancelling no option? Feel free to just ignore my question if you have answered that as well before. Also, I noticed that the MiKTeX Package Manager opens up for some reason and stays open. I am not sure why that is happening. This is another bug in MiKTeX I mentioned. There will therefore be a sentence I the announcement text. However, I just see that MiKTeX released a new installer as promised. This bug will then be fixed. Sorry, I must have missed that, too. Daniel
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 05.03.2018 um 19:37 schrieb racoon: However, it does not give the user a choice on whether to update MiKTeX or not. Yes, that is correct and I explained now in several mails why and that there is no other option. Also, I noticed that the MiKTeX Package Manager opens up for some reason and stays open. I am not sure why that is happening. This is another bug in MiKTeX I mentioned. There will therefore be a sentence I the announcement text. However, I just see that MiKTeX released a new installer as promised. This bug will then be fixed. @Scott, I have no time today but will provide a new installer tomorrow. regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 05.03.2018 19:37, racoon wrote: On 04.03.2018 19:36, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Am 04.03.2018 um 16:19 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that I will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. OK, I could check it and it works. The new installer can be found here: http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/ Now the users is not bothered at all. Everything that needs to be done is done by the installer silently. I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above. Thanks Uwe. I have tried the installer. However, it does not give the user a choice on whether to update MiKTeX or not. One is only told that MiKTeX must be updated and can only click "OK". I guess it would be preferable to let the user choose to at least update or cancel the whole installation. But maybe that is hard to implement since the message comes up only after parts of LyX are already installed? But maybe one could inform the user at an earlier stage where she then has to click "Next" or so? Also, I noticed that the MiKTeX Package Manager opens up for some reason and stays open. I am not sure why that is happening. And the installation also worked without an active internet connection.
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 04.03.2018 19:36, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Am 04.03.2018 um 16:19 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that I will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. OK, I could check it and it works. The new installer can be found here: http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/ Now the users is not bothered at all. Everything that needs to be done is done by the installer silently. I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above. Thanks Uwe. I have tried the installer. However, it does not give the user a choice on whether to update MiKTeX or not. One is only told that MiKTeX must be updated and can only click "OK". I guess it would be preferable to let the user choose to at least update or cancel the whole installation. But maybe that is hard to implement since the message comes up only after parts of LyX are already installed? But maybe one could inform the user at an earlier stage where she then has to click "Next" or so? Also, I noticed that the MiKTeX Package Manager opens up for some reason and stays open. I am not sure why that is happening. Daniel
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Le 04/03/2018 à 22:23, Uwe Stöhr a écrit : We need to install packages (hyphenation, language support, tipa, math, etc.) because we cannot know what features will be used by the user. This can only be done if the user has a working package handling system. As user I expect a working software and not that certain features don't work for reasons I don't understand. We cannot bother users with the system behind LyX. I understand the goal, but I have reservations about the means. If I have a working installation from last year, I see no reason why it would not still be a working installation this year, except for LyX insistence to "fix" it behind my back. Can we at least give a possibility for users not to be spoonfed if they do not want to? JMarc
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 06:36:54PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 04.03.2018 um 16:19 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: > > > Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX > > maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that > > I will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. > > OK, I could check it and it works. The new installer can be found here: > http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/ > > Now the users is not bothered at all. Everything that needs to be done is > done by the installer silently. > > I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX developer > promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be available by > Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's release LyX 2.3.0 with > the installer version 3 I linked above. OK, I deleted the old installer and will put the installer version 3 on the FTP. This will give the mirrors time to update. I'll plan to go ahead with the announcement on Wednesday, unless you suggest otherwise. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 04.03.2018 um 18:59 schrieb Jean-Marc Lasgouttes: So I install texlive with the medium size install Sure, but to do this you need Internet access. Having to wait until I actually use LyX to decide what packages to install would be a recipe for failure. Again, the problem I had is not about updating LaTeX packages but about the package handling system. MiKTeX is just a distribution as TeXLive. Under Linux you also have different package handling systems for different distributions. I don't like to judge what system is better or not. I do not understand why LyX absolutely has to have a say on whether my installation is good enough. We need to install packages (hyphenation, language support, tipa, math, etc.) because we cannot know what features will be used by the user. This can only be done if the user has a working package handling system. As user I expect a working software and not that certain features don't work for reasons I don't understand. We cannot bother users with the system behind LyX. They want to click on View PDF and get a PDF. If not, they will look for alternatives and not invest some hours to learn how a LaTeX distribution works and how it is maintained. Not bothering users with internal details but to create a fully functional LyX is since its creation the intention of the LyX Windows installer. regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 04.03.2018 um 16:19 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that I will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. OK, I could check it and it works. The new installer can be found here: http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/ Now the users is not bothered at all. Everything that needs to be done is done by the installer silently. I would nevertheless wait with the announcement because the MiKTeX developer promised to make a release just for us soon. If it will be available by Tuesday, I will create a new installer, if not, let's release LyX 2.3.0 with the installer version 3 I linked above. regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Le 04/03/2018 à 17:22, Uwe Stöhr a écrit : A fully functional LyX is impossible without Internet connection because missing LaTeX packages must be installed via Internet. There is no difference between TeXLive and MiKTeX in this respect. (polemic: Let's look around, even in poor countries like Tajikistan Internet is no problem. I only know 2 countries where Internet access is still extremely difficult: Cuba and North Korea. TeXLive offers a DVD for those without Internet but how can you order this DVD without Internet? Also, will it really be delivered to you?) That's not the point. I want to install my texlive and be sure that most documents will just work. Mind you, I can be in the train, plane, and getting install DVD in these places is surprisingly difficult. So I install texlive with the medium size install and I trust that most documents will work unless I write in weird languages. Having to wait until I actually use LyX to decide what packages to install would be a recipe for failure. I do not understand why LyX absolutely has to have a say on whether my installation is good enough. Taking care of users is nice. Assuming that they are stupid and we know better is not. JMarc
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 03:19:40PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 04.03.2018 um 00:32 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: > > > As soon there is a new MiKTeX installer available I will release another > > installer > > Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX > maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that I > will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. Therefore > please give me some more time before you announce. Nice! Do you have an estimate of about how much time? Thanks, Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 04.03.2018 um 16:59 schrieb Scott Kostyshak: I don't want to write pages to describe the problematic in detail. Summarized, the problem is that MiKTeX uses a new package handling system and in order to use LyX with MiKTeX this new system must be used. LyX works on Windows with a TeX Live installation, right? So why would LyX work with TeX Live and not with an older MiKTeX installation? Sorry, but doubting everything is a bit annoying. I already answered your question in the sentences you cited. I thought my example with the lock and the key made clear what happened and why it is not easy to find a solution. Yes, TeXLive users are not affected. I explained the problematic as best as I can. Now please let me get a proper solution ready together with the MiKTeX maintainer. What happens in both the case of the installer and the bundle if a user installs LyX without being connected to the internet? What do you want do say? That people should disconnect while installing LyX? And what happens afterwards? Users with certain MiKTeX versions installed gets problems as soon he tries to install packages (because e.g. a document use a missing package), unless MiKTeX is updated. This is the bug I am talking about all the time. A fully functional LyX is impossible without Internet connection because missing LaTeX packages must be installed via Internet. There is no difference between TeXLive and MiKTeX in this respect. (polemic: Let's look around, even in poor countries like Tajikistan Internet is no problem. I only know 2 countries where Internet access is still extremely difficult: Cuba and North Korea. TeXLive offers a DVD for those without Internet but how can you order this DVD without Internet? Also, will it really be delivered to you?) regards Uwe
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 11:32:23PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 02.03.2018 um 20:16 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: > > > - Conclusion: I cannot do more right now to wait until MiKTeX releases > > the fixes for the 2 bugs. > > Here is the solution in form of a new installer: > http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/ > > I don't want to write pages to describe the problematic in detail. > Summarized, the problem is that MiKTeX uses a new package handling system > and in order to use LyX with MiKTeX this new system must be used. LyX works on Windows with a TeX Live installation, right? So why would LyX work with TeX Live and not with an older MiKTeX installation? We have special handling specific to MiKTeX? > The only solution is to force 2 graphical update runs on MiKTeX where the > users just have to click in summary 4 times "Next". Not nice but there is > definitely no other way. > I expect some users not to click on Next but maybe on Cancel or Close. Those > will get in some cases as result a unusable MiKTeX installation. What happens in both the case of the installer and the bundle if a user installs LyX without being connected to the internet? Thanks for all of your work on this, Uwe. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 11:44:43PM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 03.03.2018 um 19:24 schrieb Scott Kostyshak: > > > > > I have a similar concern to Richard (and a similar disclaimer that I > > > > don't know much about Windows). Even if what you put is the case, I > > > > would prefer for the LyX installer to just give an error such as "Cannot > > > > install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Please update your > > > > MiKTeX installation as follows: ..." > > This won't work. MiKTeX must be updated in every case. If you don't want LyX > to force this, the user has to do this. But this is beyond the knowledge of > an average user. (2 update runs are necessary, repositories must be defined, > if users click in the first runs on the wrong options they break MiKTeX and > then MiKTeX must be reinstalled) In this case, racoon's suggestion of a question might be a good idea. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 04.03.2018 um 00:32 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: As soon there is a new MiKTeX installer available I will release another installer Good news: There will be a new MiKTeX installer soon and the MiKTeX maintainer proposed a workaround for the main bug. I cannot promise that I will find time today to check if this will work for all cases. Therefore please give me some more time before you announce. thanks and regards Uwe
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 03.03.2018 um 19:24 schrieb Scott Kostyshak: I have a similar concern to Richard (and a similar disclaimer that I don't know much about Windows). Even if what you put is the case, I would prefer for the LyX installer to just give an error such as "Cannot install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Please update your MiKTeX installation as follows: ..." This won't work. MiKTeX must be updated in every case. If you don't want LyX to force this, the user has to do this. But this is beyond the knowledge of an average user. (2 update runs are necessary, repositories must be defined, if users click in the first runs on the wrong options they break MiKTeX and then MiKTeX must be reinstalled) In general, as a user I expect a program just to run, I want to use programs and not learn how they work internally. For example I just use LibreOffice and don't care how their extension management, XML handling, spell checking or whatever works internally. Either it works or I hat to use another program. I mean _users_ just _use_ and e.g. at work you have even no other choice - you must deliver your texts in time and cannot fiddle around reading newsgroups etc. Trust me, I spent many hours now with this problem and the solution I presented assures that LyX will be fully functional for MiKTeX users and it is the most convenient way. The only other way would be to force people to uninstall MiKTeX before LyX can be installed. but them users would loose their personal settings, special packages etc. regards Uwe
Solution: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 02.03.2018 um 20:16 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: - Conclusion: I cannot do more right now to wait until MiKTeX releases the fixes for the 2 bugs. Here is the solution in form of a new installer: http://ftp.lyx.de/LyXWinInstaller/LyX2.3.0/ I don't want to write pages to describe the problematic in detail. Summarized, the problem is that MiKTeX uses a new package handling system and in order to use LyX with MiKTeX this new system must be used. Therefore existing MiKTeX installations must be updated. Unfortunately the normal update mechanism fails due to a bug in the MiKTeX installer that was released in October last year and the MiKTeX maintainer cannot fix this. Affected by this bug are most users who installed or updated MiKTeX between October and January. The only solution is to force 2 graphical update runs on MiKTeX where the users just have to click in summary 4 times "Next". Not nice but there is definitely no other way. I expect some users not to click on Next but maybe on Cancel or Close. Those will get in some cases as result a unusable MiKTeX installation. Therefore we need this text in the release notes and the announcement mail: " If you cannot get a PDF from a LyX file after installing LyX 2.3.0 under Windows and the error message you get is that "paths must not contain spaces" or similar, you must do the following: 1. uninstall LyX 2.3.0 2. uninstall MiKTeX 3. reinstall LyX 2.3.0 using the bundle installer " As soon there is a new MiKTeX installer available I will release another installer because this will fix 2 minor bugs (for example that on some installations the MiKTeX package manager pops up unexpectedly). regards Uwe
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 05:17:21PM +, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 12:26:35AM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > > Am 02.03.2018 um 20:59 schrieb Richard Heck: > > > > > I don't know a lot about Windows, but let me just ask: Do we really want > > > to force people to upgrade some other package when they install LyX? > > > > As I wrote in a previous post, the thing is that MiKTeX released in February > > a new package handling system. In order to be able to set up LyX the LyX > > installer needs to use this new system and therefore MiKTeX needs to be > > updated. > > I have a similar concern to Richard (and a similar disclaimer that I > don't know much about Windows). Even if what you put is the case, I > would prefer for the LyX installer to just give an error such as "Cannot > install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Please update your > MiKTeX installation as follows: ..." > See, for example, this thread: https://latex.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19=30919 I have no idea what exactly happened, and whether installing LyX did actually cause e.g. Winedt to fail to compile, but the main point I want to make is Stefan's surprise that LyX could possibly change anything about the MiKTeX installation. Stefan is a LaTeX expert, so if he would be surprised, I'm guessing that many would be surprised/confused. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 05:52:17PM +, racoon wrote: > > > On 03.03.2018 18:17, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 12:26:35AM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > > > Am 02.03.2018 um 20:59 schrieb Richard Heck: > > > > > > > I don't know a lot about Windows, but let me just ask: Do we really want > > > > to force people to upgrade some other package when they install LyX? > > > > > > As I wrote in a previous post, the thing is that MiKTeX released in > > > February > > > a new package handling system. In order to be able to set up LyX the LyX > > > installer needs to use this new system and therefore MiKTeX needs to be > > > updated. > > > > I have a similar concern to Richard (and a similar disclaimer that I > > don't know much about Windows). Even if what you put is the case, I > > would prefer for the LyX installer to just give an error such as "Cannot > > install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Please update your > > MiKTeX installation as follows: ..." > > But couldn't LyX ask the user to make a decision? Like > > "Cannot install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Click Next to > update MiKTeX or Cancel." That would be fine with me. I was just saying that I would prefer to give an error and refuse to do anything rather than silently update the user's MiKTeX. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 03.03.2018 18:17, Scott Kostyshak wrote: On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 12:26:35AM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Am 02.03.2018 um 20:59 schrieb Richard Heck: I don't know a lot about Windows, but let me just ask: Do we really want to force people to upgrade some other package when they install LyX? As I wrote in a previous post, the thing is that MiKTeX released in February a new package handling system. In order to be able to set up LyX the LyX installer needs to use this new system and therefore MiKTeX needs to be updated. I have a similar concern to Richard (and a similar disclaimer that I don't know much about Windows). Even if what you put is the case, I would prefer for the LyX installer to just give an error such as "Cannot install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Please update your MiKTeX installation as follows: ..." But couldn't LyX ask the user to make a decision? Like "Cannot install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Click Next to update MiKTeX or Cancel." Daniel
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 12:26:35AM +, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 02.03.2018 um 20:59 schrieb Richard Heck: > > > I don't know a lot about Windows, but let me just ask: Do we really want > > to force people to upgrade some other package when they install LyX? > > As I wrote in a previous post, the thing is that MiKTeX released in February > a new package handling system. In order to be able to set up LyX the LyX > installer needs to use this new system and therefore MiKTeX needs to be > updated. I have a similar concern to Richard (and a similar disclaimer that I don't know much about Windows). Even if what you put is the case, I would prefer for the LyX installer to just give an error such as "Cannot install LyX without the newest version of MiKTeX. Please update your MiKTeX installation as follows: ..." I know it is not user-friendly, but forcing updates is also not friendly. Scott signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 02.03.2018 20:16, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Here is the final analysis: - I created a new installer that forces a silent MiKTeX update. This assures that every user gets the current MiKTeX package handling system. Do you know how I can check whether I already have the current MiKTeX package handling system (without actually updating)? Daniel
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
Am 02.03.2018 um 20:59 schrieb Richard Heck: I don't know a lot about Windows, but let me just ask: Do we really want to force people to upgrade some other package when they install LyX? As I wrote in a previous post, the thing is that MiKTeX released in February a new package handling system. In order to be able to set up LyX the LyX installer needs to use this new system and therefore MiKTeX needs to be updated. If the LyX installer would not force the update LyX can be installed for users who run the MiKTeX update manually already but not for users who e.g. updated MiKTeX the last time when LyX 2.2.3 was released. The LaTeX packages are not important. They can be older versions. regards Uwe
Re: Summary for the Win installer problem
On 03/02/2018 02:16 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Here is the final analysis: > > - there is definitely no Virus or so, these false positives can be > ignored > > - there is a bug in LyX we need to fix: > https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/11053 > > - I created a new installer that forces a silent MiKTeX update. This > assures that every user gets the current MiKTeX package handling system. I don't know a lot about Windows, but let me just ask: Do we really want to force people to upgrade some other package when they install LyX? And do it without asking? Might they not be using MiKTeX otherwise and not want to upgrade it? Richard
Summary for the Win installer problem
Here is the final analysis: - there is definitely no Virus or so, these false positives can be ignored - there is a bug in LyX we need to fix: https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/11053 - I created a new installer that forces a silent MiKTeX update. This assures that every user gets the current MiKTeX package handling system. - there are 2 bugs in MiKTeX that make problems: * this one is already fixed but the fix it not yet published (only few user will be affected): https://github.com/MiKTeX/miktex/issues/73 * this one causes the problem LyX users reported (everyone will be affected who had MiKTeX already installed before installing LyX 2.3.0): https://github.com/MiKTeX/miktex/issues/82 - Conclusion: I cannot do more right now to wait until MiKTeX releases the fixes for the 2 bugs. Sorry and regards Uwe
