date:20161014

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I'll just write here briefly to apologize for losing my temper in a
previous message. I have my own failings and should not be so thin skinned.

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 11:42 AM,  wrote:

> Louis, if you think readers are so stupid that they can't discern the fact
> I DON'T say that the Saudi government is funding ISIS you are letting New
> York elitism get to your brain. Everyone knows that government policy is
> opposed to al Queda and ISIS while the princes are simultaneously sending
> money to jihadists. The problem is that either you refuse to have any sort
> of nuance about this while libeling people who you have mad delusions about
> or that you are a complete and total nitwit. You make everyone spell it out
> like a grade school teacher in order to avoid your disgusting and
> sanctimonious rants that a speak to the mentality of a stool pigeon.
>
> --I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in
> Syria to crush that popular uprising.--
>
> And more specifically the US policy that is using their cause to justify
> holding the country hostage until they allow Wall Street to rape their
> economy the way it did Iraq under the de-Baathification policies that
> Clinton and Bush had in the Washington archives for a decade prior to 9/11.
>
>
> On 10/14/16 10:32 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
>
> Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising
>
> against a government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you
>
> as stupid as your petty insults?
>
>
> I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in Syria
> to crush that popular uprising.
>
> But here's the real problem. You write:
>
> "Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas
> that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel.
> Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the
> House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"
>
> In fact, there are Saudis who are funding ISIS but they do so in defiance
> of the official state policy of opposing ISIS. In fact al-Qaeda and its
> offshoot ISIS are deeply opposed to the royal family.
>
> This confusion is rampant on the Baathist amen corner, which for obvious
> reasons tries to make an amalgam between jihadists and the ordinary Syrian
> rebel who fights not for recreating a caliphate but for the right to live
> in freedom and dignity
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Stewart
>



-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Political Defamation Campaign Targets Rescue Workers in Syria

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Amith asks what accounts for the change in tone in Franklin Lamb’s piece
today

(10-15-16) and I would add his earlier piece

of 10-7-16, also on Counterpunch.



That earlier piece was actually a rather strange endeavor that makes sense
to me now that today’s piece informs it.



What was noticeable in Lamb’s 10/7 piece is the lack of Baathist Amen
Corner politics, rather than anything specific politically. The piece is an
extended argument for the existence of enormous war crimes in Syria, and
Lamb bothers to build his case with a painstaking account of how such law
came to exist, came to be applied to civilians, how it is examined and
under whose authority. Lamb explains the definition of such war crimes and
argues for the existence of thousands upon thousands in Syria. He says he
was brought to this by personal observations in Aleppo.



Lamb names no names, chooses no sides in this article, says that
accountability will be the job of the investigators. Nevertheless, the mere
enumeration of the kinds of war crimes Lamb calls to be investigated
includes many things only the regime could do.



Today’s piece goes well beyond that. It is an extended and passionate
defense of the White Helmets clearly written by one who has been there,
watched them work, knows their moral character and cannot abide the lies.
The grotesque, unbelievable --  yet believed by millions – lies, for
instance, that the White Helmets carry the bodies in, bury them, then dig
them up for the cameras.



Well, as said before, respect to the guy. This is a very important change
of view because Lamb is a long-time on-the-ground observer and reporter and
has weight. That’s what made his stuff before so depressing. Moreover, he
has picked, in my opinion, the absolute best issue around which to explain
the complexity of Syria: The White Helmets.



It is the best issue for the following reasons:



1. It is current and its currency will not go away. It may change, but
it won’ t go away.

2. It is important because the story is simple. The White Helmets are
honorable people doing, as they say, an unbelievably depressing job in a
horrible situation with the constant threat of their own death. Or, they
are murderous propaganda operatives and wannabe video stars cynically
manipulating a gullible crybaby western audience. What’s nice about this
Manichean choice is that there are *facts*. Lots of them. And that people
*care*. And that the Baathist Amen Corner is *deeply, deeply* committed to
an otherworldly view that is obviously bullshit, has no possible credence
and was never intended to convince anyone of anything, but just to be one
of those litany of lies piled on top of another pile of lies in the normal
Stalinist manner of piling it on until the pile of poop is so mountainous
that even its erosion washes away the truth. Just wave a little Patrick
Cockburn or Seymour Hersh perfume and it will smell good even to Noam
Chomsky. Btu this time they have picked a very bad issue.

3. It is therefore possible to build big, broad (all within reason,
local limitations, etc) events *materially* supporting Aleppo that also
*educate* about Syria and bring it home to the Amen Corner.

4. Once the Baathist Amen Corner is publicly nailed on *this* issue we
will create a better hearing for the case that the global left needs to be
re-forged from scratch.



Comment appreciated.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Political Defamation Campaign Targets Rescue Workers in Syria


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On 10/14/16 11:07 PM, A.R. G wrote:

I am glad he has changed his tone but frankly the flip-flopping makes me
think none of these people are really principled. I also don't think
reality has ever stopped anyone from being full of crap.


There's been some hue and cry about Jill Stein changing her statement on 
Syria that used to refer to the need for Assad to "regain control" of 
the country. By all accounts, her latest version is a retreat from such 
obvious Ajamu Baraka-talk. Some say she was responding to pressure from 
people like us. I know for a fact that my Muftah article on the Green 
Party and Syria was circulated among GP old-timers. Honestly, I am 
satisfied by changes of position as long as they turn out to be on the 
plus side. It would be great if Jill Stein or Franklin Lamb could 
account for the change but that is probably expecting too much.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Political Defamation Campaign Targets Rescue Workers in Syria

2016-10-14 Thread A.R. G via Marxism

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I've definitely changed! But I also never wrote defenses for the Assad
regime, which I remember Lamb doing quite openly. I am glad he has changed
his tone but frankly the flip-flopping makes me think none of these people
are really principled. I also don't think reality has ever stopped anyone
from being full of crap.

- Amith

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 11:03 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 10/14/16 10:30 PM, A.R. G wrote:
>
>> I wonder what accounts for the change in tone.
>>
>
> Probably the same thing that accounts for your own changes and that of
> Joshua Frank, the co-editor of CounterPunch: objective reality.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Political Defamation Campaign Targets Rescue Workers in Syria


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On 10/14/16 10:30 PM, A.R. G wrote:

I wonder what accounts for the change in tone.


Probably the same thing that accounts for your own changes and that of 
Joshua Frank, the co-editor of CounterPunch: objective reality.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Political Defamation Campaign Targets Rescue Workers in Syria

2016-10-14 Thread A.R. G via Marxism

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I wonder what accounts for the change in tone.

When I met Lamb in Lebanon some years ago (must have been 2012) he seemed
like a very idiosyncratic individual who nonetheless was very much in the
Syria/Iran camp.

- Amith

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> Franklin Lamb comes to the defense of the White Helmets. Outstanding!!!
>
> http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/14/political-defamation-
> campaign-targets-rescue-workers-in-syria/
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[Marxism] ISIS and Saudi Funding

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https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3774#efmA-YBLC

“While this military/para-military operation is moving forward, we need to
use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring
pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing
clandestine financial and logistic support to [ISIS] and other radical
Sunni groups in the region.”

-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart
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[Marxism] trumping Trump

2016-10-14 Thread Gary MacLennan via Marxism

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Lou wrote: (Interesting article from Charles Post but I am afraid he like
most leftists takes Trump at his word that he is hostile to the neoliberal
agenda. Those rants against NAFTA, etc. have about as much value as Nixon's
vows that he would bring peace to Vietnam.)

The American election is really pushing its way onto the agenda here in Oz.
One liberal commentator Katerine Murphy of the Guardian mused about the
populist impulse that lay behind Sanders and Trump and "Corbyn's grim
occupation" of the Labour Party.  [Why "grim"?]  Murphy claimed that there
was growing anxiety in Australia about the overseas surge in populism.

I wish!

What does intrigue me at a mild level is the impact of the groping tape.
Richard Seymour claims that the release of the tape by the Clinton camp was
their one smart move, that is if they did it. I would argue that wheeling
out the Obamas, especially Michelle, to give moral ballast to the Clinton
clan was their second smart move.

So we are urged to reject the classic "male chauvinist pig" and I think the
American people now will.

I am also intrigued, though, about the tape's journey from obscurity in
2005 to world wide status in 2016. I have speculated before that the Bush
clan must have done a deal, surely, with the Clintons. I haven't seen any
commentary anywhere on how or why the tape surfaced. It is like *deus ex
machina*, we are supposed to take it on faith.  Like a leader in the old UK
Tory Party, we are being asked to believe it just emerged.

Don't think so.

The really substantial point is that the anti-neoliberal tide which Sanders
surfed and which Trump dabbled in has made way for moral outrage. There is
no question that Lou is absolutely right when he says that Trump was not
sincere in his criticisms of  neoliberalism.

But the need for relief from neoliberalism is real and it will return to
surface or popular consciousness and it is something that the war monger
herself will have to deal with when she becomes POTUS.

comradely

Gary
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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

2016-10-14 Thread Thomas via Marxism

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As for "maniacal princelings affiliated with the House of Saud funneling money 
to ISIS," that horror would be of world class dimensions:

"There are 15,000 members of the royal family in Saudi Arabia, all 
princes/princesses or better. 

"Part of this is just due to the fact that Saudi Arabia has practiced, and 
still practices, polygamy. The founder of modern Saudi Arabia had at roughly 
100 children, 45 of them sons. His youngest was born 52 years after his 
firstborn."

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3pp8py/eli5_why_are_there_so_many_saudi_princes_and_how/

T

-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>Sent: Oct 14, 2016 11:04 AM
>To: Thomas F Barton 
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria maps
>
>On 10/14/16 10:32 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
>> Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising
>> against a government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you
>> as stupid as your petty insults?
>
>But here's the real problem. You write:
>
>"Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas 
>that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel. 
>
Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the 
>House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"
>

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[Marxism] Fwd: The Republicans Have Been Trumped | Jacobin


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(Interesting article from Charles Post but I am afraid he like most 
leftists takes Trump at his word that he is hostile to the neoliberal 
agenda. Those rants against NAFTA, etc. have about as much value as 
Nixon's vows that he would bring peace to Vietnam.)


For over eighty years, the reformist left in the United States has 
sought to transform one of the capitalist parties into a “people’s” 
party. Both the Communist Party’s popular front strategy and the 
social-democratic strategy of “realignment” (formulated by the brilliant 
ex-Marxist Max Shachtman) sought to transform the Democratic Party. The 
Democrats, through the 1950s, were a coalition of urban real estate 
developers, Jewish and Catholic capitalists, and southern planters who 
enjoyed the voting support of northern industrial workers, black and 
white, middle-class liberals, and most southern whites.


The reformists’ goal was to drive out the conservative, pro-capitalist 
elements — especially the Dixiecrats — leaving the labor officialdom and 
middle-class liberals to dominate a “labor-liberal” Party. As Paul 
Heideman recently pointed out in a recent essay in Jacobin, there was a 
realignment in the Democratic Party in the 1970s — but not the one the 
reformists hoped for. The southerners abandoned the Democrats for the 
Republicans, but with urban growth the non–White Anglo-Saxon Protestant 
(WASP) capitalists were joined by new capitalists in high technology and 
the media, and an increasingly neoliberal urban middle class. Rather 
than becoming a labor-liberal party, the Democrats moved sharply right 
in the 1980s as the official leaders of the labor, civil rights, and 
women’s movements were marginalized.


Today, we are seeing a realignment within the oldest party of industrial 
capitalism in the United States — the Republicans. The party 
establishment — those with the closest historic ties to old-line, WASP 
manufacturers, bankers, and financiers — have lost control of the party 
to a right-wing populist, Donald Trump.


Since the 1960s, the mass voter base of the Republican Party has been 
made up primarily of older, suburban, white middle-class small 
businesspeople, professionals, and managers, many of whom are 
self-described Christian fundamentalists, and a minority of older white 
workers, including a minority of union households. Until recently, the 
party’s base’s particular passions — especially its hostility to the 
democratic gains of people of color, women, and LGBT people — could be 
contained.


Minor concessions to the social conservatives on abortion, affirmative 
action, voter restrictions, and same-sex marriage/legal equality 
maintained their loyalty, while capitalists set the substantive 
neoliberal agenda for the Republicans (and the Democrats as well). As in 
the Democratic Party, the noncapitalist elements of the Republican 
coalition were clearly junior partners to capital.


In 2016, a radical, right-wing, middle-class insurgency that began in 
the wake of the world economic crisis of 2007–8 has displaced, at least 
temporarily, the hegemonic capitalists in the Republican Party. Donald 
Trump’s nomination as the Republican presidential candidate is the most 
recent act of a struggle for the leadership of the party that began in 
the aftermath of the global recession and the election of Barack Obama 
and Democratic majorities in both the US House and Senate.


While capital did push back against the first wave of middle-class 
radicalism in the Republican Party — the Tea Party — during the 2014 
Congressional elections, these rebels were not vanquished. In fact, they 
have become even more radically nationalist and populist, imposing a 
presidential candidate hostile to the neoliberal agenda.


full: 
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/10/trump-gop-republicans-tea-party-populism-fascism/

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[Marxism] Fwd: The Strange Sympathy of the Far Left for Putin


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http://prospect.org/article/strange-sympathy-far-left-putin#.WAD9VsE_igU.twitter
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[Marxism] Fwd: Political Defamation Campaign Targets Rescue Workers in Syria


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Franklin Lamb comes to the defense of the White Helmets. Outstanding!!!

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/14/political-defamation-campaign-targets-rescue-workers-in-syria/
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[Marxism] Fwd: The Wages of Sub-Imperial Assimilation: BRICS Fantasies and Unintended Revelations


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By Patrick Bond

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/14/the-wages-of-sub-imperial-assimilation-brics-fantasies-and-unintended-revelations/
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[Marxism] Fwd: Three documentaries of note | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist


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If there is any justification at this point for continuing a Netflix 
membership, it is the opportunity to see Werner Herzog’s new documentary 
about volcanoes on October 28th, which will be opening the same day at 
the IFC Center in New York. Titled “Inside the Inferno” and produced by 
Netflix itself, it is echt Herzog and qualified on that basis alone for 
putting it on your must-see list.


The film is co-directed by Clive Oppenheimer who is one of the world’s 
leading volcanologists and a constant presence throughout the film as he 
visits villages near major active volcanoes around the world, including 
Vanuatu, a group of islands about 1000 miles east of northern Australia. 
Oppenheimer alternates with Herzog in interviewing village elders who 
maintain prescientific notions about spirits dwelling within the 
volcanoes. The co-directors have an uncanny ability to accept those 
beliefs in a respectful manner.


Speaking in terms of auteur theory, this documentary is obviously 
connected with Herzog’s major preoccupation—living at the edges of 
society and often in the face of some peril. If his “Grizzly Man” was an 
object lesson in getting too close to bears in the Alaskan wilderness, 
his latest is a reminder that scientists like Oppenheimer take as big a 
chance with their lives in their own pursuit.


full: https://louisproyect.org/2016/10/14/three-documentaries-of-note-5/
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Re: [Marxism] Assadists strike back with statement

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Note: This post answers a private question from a list member about
signatories to the evil Syrian Solidarity Movement statement but the 3rd
paragraph is of general interest.

If you scroll down on the Syrian Solidarity Movement website you will find
it. I made a error earlier and thought this was current, but it's actually
a year old. Mega more bad on Counterpunch for that!

Anyway, you have to go through a few screen to get to this piece of shit
because it is in fact so old, but there are signatories there. But again it
is old news and probably not worth digging into. I would wait for a more
current response.

More I think about it, the less I like Counterpunch's role in this. They
have effectively, if underhandedly, provided an immediate (glossy!
counterrevolutionary!) response to the wonderful statement On The Allies
We're Not Proud Of: A Palestinian Response to Troubling Discourse on Syria,
thus attempting to deny the Palestinians' statement the news cycle it
deserves. This POS Counterpunch re-post comes up BEFORE the Palestinians'
statement on Google. Look and learn, comrades, this is war.

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Ken Hiebert  wrote:

> I did not see a list of those who signed.
> ken h
>
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[Marxism] A Brief History of the Past Fifty Years....

2016-10-14 Thread Ron Jacobs via Marxism

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http://stillhomeron.blogspot.com/2016/10/a-brief-history-of-last-fifty-years-in.html
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Re: [Marxism] People's Forum on BRICS

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The Syrian Question defines politics in the 21st Century.

It re-raises the question of Stalinism, which for a long time was so
apparently irrelevant that Louis embargoed the discussion of Trotsky/Stalin
off the front page here.

Old alignments are falling apart. The most sensitive to the fatal embrace
of Stalinism on this question -- besides the Syrian revolutionaries
themselves -- are the best of the Palestinians, who say: please include us
out:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdFSTpAOCdPRU5e1iP11GDrWPu5pXrdVMzGumApRGd8lil2jQ/closedform

It is all on the table and a new breed of revolutionaries may rise.
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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps


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On 10/14/16 11:42 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

Everyone knows that government policy is opposed to al Queda and ISIS while the 
princes are simultaneously sending money to jihadists.


Then you need to learn to write more clearly.

"Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas 
that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel. 
Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the 
House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"


When you say that the princelings are *affiliated* with the House of 
Saud, readers can only conclude that they have the approval of the 
state. Which as you now seem to admit was not what you believe.

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[Marxism] Syria maps

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Louis, if you think readers are so stupid that they can't discern the fact I 
DON'T say that the Saudi government is funding ISIS you are letting New York 
elitism get to your brain. Everyone knows that government policy is opposed to 
al Queda and ISIS while the princes are simultaneously sending money to 
jihadists. The problem is that either you refuse to have any sort of nuance 
about this while libeling people who you have mad delusions about or that you 
are a complete and total nitwit. You make everyone spell it out like a grade 
school teacher in order to avoid your disgusting and sanctimonious rants that a 
speak to the mentality of a stool pigeon.

--I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in Syria to 
crush that popular uprising.--

And more specifically the US policy that is using their cause to justify 
holding the country hostage until they allow Wall Street to rape their economy 
the way it did Iraq under the de-Baathification policies that Clinton and Bush 
had in the Washington archives for a decade prior to 9/11.

> On 10/14/16 10:32 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
> Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising
> against a government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you
> as stupid as your petty insults?

I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in Syria to 
crush that popular uprising.

But here's the real problem. You write:

"Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas that 
the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel. Golly, I 
wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the House of Saud 
might be funneling money to ISIS?"

In fact, there are Saudis who are funding ISIS but they do so in defiance of 
the official state policy of opposing ISIS. In fact al-Qaeda and its offshoot 
ISIS are deeply opposed to the royal family.

This confusion is rampant on the Baathist amen corner, which for obvious 
reasons tries to make an amalgam between jihadists and the ordinary Syrian 
rebel who fights not for recreating a caliphate but for the right to live in 
freedom and dignity

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 
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Re: [Marxism] Assadists strike back with statement

2016-10-14 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism

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David, the counterpunch link is to a different Larudee-initiated statement;
it's from last year and is aimed at Palestinian signers.
The new one, aimed at gringos, was linked in Ken's message yesterday. Will
find.
But thanks for the Muftah material.
p.s. re last year's Palestinian statement: my guess at the time, based on
the suspiciously large number of signers, was that Larudee had asked his
old left friends (DFLP, PFLP, etc.) to pass along their members' names as
signees. Would be good to know for sure. (Including so as not to deny
agency to the signers.)

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 11:34 AM, David McDonald via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> The Assadists have published their own statement with list of signers on
> Counterpunch (at least):
>
> http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/22/the-global-war-on-
> syria-statement-of-palestinian-groups-and-individuals-in-the-occupied-
> homeland-refugee-camps-and-the-diaspora/
>
> This is possibly the worst thing Jeffrey St Clair has ever done. Someone
> who is a signatory to the *real *global solidarity movement with Syria
> statement ought to submit it to Counterpunch so they can't say they didn't
> have a chance.
>
> The real thing:
>
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdFSTpAOCdPRU5e1iP11GDr
> WPu5pXrdVMzGumApRGd8lil2jQ/viewform?c=0=1
>
> The real thing minus signatories but with explanatory updates from Muftah,
> a highly recommended Syrian source, commentary by Sarah Moawad:
>
> http://muftah.org/statement-palestinian-activists-
> solidarity-syrian-revolution-sparks-backlash/#.WAD5mJMrKHo
> .
>
> My remarks:
>
> This is another beginning of the battle of Syria. The Assadist statement is
> put out by the Syria Solidarity Campaign. One big weakness is that the home
> page for the statement, so to speak, is also home base for all the other
> crap the Assadists propagandize, including their call to NOT give the White
> Helmets the Nobel Peace Prize. If properly highlighted, that ought to help
> ordinary Americans and other westerners figure out who stands where.
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[Marxism] Assadists strike back with statement

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The Assadists have published their own statement with list of signers on
Counterpunch (at least):

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/22/the-global-war-on-syria-statement-of-palestinian-groups-and-individuals-in-the-occupied-homeland-refugee-camps-and-the-diaspora/

This is possibly the worst thing Jeffrey St Clair has ever done. Someone
who is a signatory to the *real *global solidarity movement with Syria
statement ought to submit it to Counterpunch so they can't say they didn't
have a chance.

The real thing:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdFSTpAOCdPRU5e1iP11GDrWPu5pXrdVMzGumApRGd8lil2jQ/viewform?c=0=1

The real thing minus signatories but with explanatory updates from Muftah,
a highly recommended Syrian source, commentary by Sarah Moawad:

http://muftah.org/statement-palestinian-activists-solidarity-syrian-revolution-sparks-backlash/#.WAD5mJMrKHo
.

My remarks:

This is another beginning of the battle of Syria. The Assadist statement is
put out by the Syria Solidarity Campaign. One big weakness is that the home
page for the statement, so to speak, is also home base for all the other
crap the Assadists propagandize, including their call to NOT give the White
Helmets the Nobel Peace Prize. If properly highlighted, that ought to help
ordinary Americans and other westerners figure out who stands where.
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Re: [Marxism] Is economic struggle subversive?

2016-10-14 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism

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Well, the same could be said for the "glorification" of political struggle,
too, couldn't it?  :-)

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Paddy Hackett 
wrote:

> Hi Mark
>
> My point is political. In some ways, perhaps, my perspective is tangential
> to that of Lenin's What Is To Be Done.
>
> The glorification of economic struggle is to incarcerate politics in the
> capitalist cage. The struggle must break free from that cage by challenging
> the latter. This means that economic struggle must be transcended. But this
> does mean that economic struggle must be abandoned.
>
> Take Care
> Paddy
>
> On 14 Oct 2016, at 14:34, Mark Lause  wrote:
>
> The essence of a class struggle perspective makes it rather difficult to
> draw these kind of hard and fast lines.  Yes, you can might that a
> particular struggle is "economic" rather than "political" or vice versa.
> What's important is that the participants and observers may all see it
> shades.  The challenge is to formulate a very fluid approach to anything
> that involves numbers of people significant enough to create an interesting
> dynamic.
>
> ML
>
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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps


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On 10/14/16 10:32 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising
against a government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you
as stupid as your petty insults?


I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in 
Syria to crush that popular uprising.


But here's the real problem. You write:

"Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas 
that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel. 
Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the 
House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"


In fact, there are Saudis who are funding ISIS but they do so in 
defiance of the official state policy of opposing ISIS. In fact al-Qaeda 
and its offshoot ISIS are deeply opposed to the royal family.


This confusion is rampant on the Baathist amen corner, which for obvious 
reasons tries to make an amalgam between jihadists and the ordinary 
Syrian rebel who fights not for recreating a caliphate but for the right 
to live in freedom and dignity.


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[Marxism] Syria maps

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Again with the vitriol and the pigeonholing of me as something that I am not. 
Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising against a 
government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you as stupid as your 
petty insults? Such things were done in the case of Iran forty years ago, yet 
you don't have the ability to grasp that now. 

--

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:41:14 -0400
From: Louis Proyect 
To: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria maps
Message-ID: <187f3fda-5ccb-d79a-658b-366450c3b...@panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

> On 10/13/16 2:16 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
> Actually Louis that is not Marxism at all, it is geology and a basic
> diagnosis of the geopolitical tensions. Whatever ideas you have about
> the events in Syria and people who you disagree with has absolutely
> nothing to do with this one.

The problem is that you describe the pipeline as helping the public 
understand "the bigger picture behind the fighting" when it fact it does 
no such thing.

The fighting in Syria is not over pipelines but over whether a family 
dynasty based on oligarchic rule and mafioso violence should continue.

In fact, I posted a link to an article by Gareth Porter that refutes 
such nonsense:

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/37685-the-war-against-the-assad-regime-is-not-a-pipeline-war

I would have hoped that you would have taken the trouble to comment on 
Porter's article. Perhaps the fact that both of you are Assadists might 
have made such a task more difficult.

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 
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Re: [Marxism] People's Forum on BRICS

2016-10-14 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism

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But this is a different crowd. Workshop speakers included
Trevor Ngwane and Dorothy Guerrero; I suspect Patrick Bond and/or his
co-analysts of BRICS had a hand in the statement. None of them have any
truck with despots.
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Re: [Marxism] People's Forum on BRICS


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On 10/14/16 10:03 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:

Would be a perfect statement were it not PES (Progressive Except for Syria).
How could they be so good on everything else and so blind on the Syrian
Revolution?


Shouldn't be obvious by now that you can have good politics on a whole 
range of questions and still be wrong on Syria? Not everybody takes the 
trouble to read pro-Syrian revolution blogs or books, plus people like 
Patrick Cockburn, Robert Fisk and Seymour Hersh have political capital 
from long careers in left journalism.

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Re: [Marxism] People's Forum on BRICS

2016-10-14 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism

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Would be a perfect statement were it not PES (Progressive Except for Syria).
How could they be so good on everything else and so blind on the Syrian
Revolution?

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> Press Release
>
> BRICS MUST TAKE LEGITIMATE AND CONVINCING STEPS TO DEFEND PEACE, PLANET
> AND PEOPLE'S INTERESTS: URGES PEOPLE'S FORUM
> --
>
> People's Forum on BRICS held in Goa develops a declaration for heads of
> state attending the 8th BRICS Summit
> -
>
> GOA, 14 October 2016: The People's Forum on BRICS that took place in Goa
> on the 13th and 14th of Goa witnessed several social movements and civil
> society formations, representing the people of at least 10 countries, make
> a declaration towards the official 8th BRICS summit in Goa.
>
> The declaration has urged upon the BRICS nations to look at issues of
> Social, Economic and Environmental justice and has reminded the BRICS
> leadership of a time of an unprecedented crisis facing humanity and nature.
>
> The forum has emphasised the threat that several democracies across the
> world are facing from reactionary and imperialist forces and has in
> particular drawn attention to the coup in Brazil that has overthrown a
> people's government.  The representatives also noticed with great concern
> the state repression of people's movements and student’s protests in
> countries including India and South Africa.
>
> The declaration also points out the massive levels of ecological
> destruction that is taking place around the world, led by corporations and
> in collusion with the state.  Goa, the site of the summit is ironically at
> the receiving end of this destruction.
>
> The Forum also pointed out the teetering world economy that is on the
> verge of another financial meltdown resulting in stocks and currency market
> crisis in many of the BRICS countries. The longer-term crisis of capitalism
> is evident in the marked slowdown in international trade, in declining
> global profit rates, and in business disinvestment, especially evident in
> the three BRICS which have negative or negligible GDP growth.
>
> The world’s workers are losing rights, farmers are suffering to the point
> of suicide, and labour casualisation is rampant in all our countries, with
> the result that BRICS workers are engaged in regular protest and wildcat
> strikes, of which the strike by 180 million Indian workers inspired the
> world on 2 September;
>
> On the social front, the threat to our already-inadequate welfare policies
> is serious, especially in Brazil’s coup regime but more generally across
> the BRICS where inadequate social policies are not providing adequate
> safety nets;
>
> The commodification of public services is causing misery, such as in South
> Africa where university students are fighting hard for a fee-free,
> decolonised tertiary education;
>
> Everywhere that people’s movements have made countervailing demands – such
> as democracy, peace, poverty eradication, sustainable development,
> equality, fair trade – the elites have co-opted our language and distorted
> our visions beyond recognition. Many of our leaders are hopelessly corrupt,
> and so when BRICS spin-doctors claim that their work in Goa will “build
> responsive, inclusive and collective solutions,” we have spent two days
> looking beyond the pleasing rhetoric and have found a very different, harsh
> reality.
>
> In short, whereas we criticise the way world power is created and
> exercised, the BRICS leaders appear to simply want power sharing. To
> illustrate, the BRICS New Development Bank is working hand-in-glove with
> the World Bank; the Contingent Reserve Arrangement empowers the
> International Monetary Fund; and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank
> serves mainly corporate interests – and all these financial institutions
> lack opportunities for adequate civil society monitoring and participation.
>
> As a result, the Forum has raised constructive critiques of BRICS in our
> plenaries and workshops. But beyond the analysis, we understand that only
> people’s power, across borders, can make change. Some of our most
> successful struggles – such as access to life-savings medicines or ending
> apartheid – required international solidarity. This Forum found many

[Marxism] Fwd: How the West Came to Rule Symposium - Progress in Political Economy (PPE)


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http://ppesydney.net/west-came-rule-symposium/
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[Marxism] Dario Fo, Whose Plays Won Praise, Scorn and a Nobel, Dies at 90


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NY Times, Oct. 14 2016
Dario Fo, Whose Plays Won Praise, Scorn and a Nobel, Dies at 90
By JONATHAN KANDELL

Dario Fo, the Italian playwright, director and performer whose 
scathingly satirical work earned him both praise and condemnation, as 
well as the 1997 Nobel Prize in Literature, died on Thursday in Milan. 
He was 90.


His death was confirmed by his Italian publisher, Chiarelettere.

Mr. Fo wrote more than 80 plays, many of them in collaboration with his 
wife, Franca Rame, who died in 2013, and his work was translated into 
dozens of languages.


He was best known for two works: “Accidental Death of an Anarchist” 
(1970), a play based on the case of an Italian railroad worker who was 
either thrown or fell from the upper story of a Milan police station 
while being questioned on suspicion of terrorism; and his one-man show 
“Mistero Buffo” (“Comic Mystery”), written in 1969 and frequently 
revised and updated in the decades that followed, taking wild comic aim 
at politics and especially religion.


After a 1977 version of “Mistero Buffo” was broadcast in Italy, the 
Vatican denounced it as “the most blasphemous show in the history of 
television.”


The church’s attitude toward Mr. Fo had not mellowed a generation later, 
when he was awarded the Nobel. “Giving the prize to someone who is also 
the author of questionable works is beyond imagination,” the Vatican 
newspaper L’Osservatore Romano said.


Many critics felt differently. “Imagine a cross between Bertolt Brecht 
and Lenny Bruce and you may begin to have an idea of the scope of Fo’s 
anarchic art,” Mel Gussow wrote in The New York Times in 1983.


Basing their art on the tradition of the medieval jester and the 
improvisation techniques of commedia dell’arte, Mr. Fo and Ms. Rame 
thrilled, dismayed and angered audiences around the world. Together they 
staged thousands of performances, in conventional theaters, factories 
occupied by striking workers, university sit-ins, city parks, prisons 
and even deconsecrated churches.


Photo

Dario Fo in 2008 with a Swedish stamp commemorating his Nobel Prize for 
literature. Credit Anders Wiklund/Scanpix, via Reuters
“We’ve had to endure abuse, assaults by the police, insults from the 
right-thinking and violence,” Mr. Fo said in his Nobel lecture.


The worst episode occurred in 1973 — after a Fo play criticizing the 
police was presented in Milan — when his wife was kidnapped, tortured 
and raped by a fascist group later found to have links to members of the 
carabinieri, the Italian federal police. But Mr. Fo and Ms. Rame riled 
opponents across the political spectrum.


In 1968, Mr. Fo became persona non grata in much of Communist Europe 
after he withdrew all rights to the performance of his plays in 
Czechoslovakia to protest the Soviet-led invasion that toppled the 
reform Communist government there.


He and his wife were also repeatedly denied entry into the United States 
because of their ties to the Italian Communist Party.


The couple finally received a brief waiver for the 1984 Broadway opening 
of “Accidental Death of an Anarchist.”


Mr. Fo attributed the State Department’s change of heart to the 
intervention of President Ronald Reagan, a former actor. It was, Mr. Fo 
said dryly, “the gesture of a colleague.” Two years later Mr. Fo and his 
wife were again allowed to visit, this time to make their joint American 
debut as performers.


Mr. Fo was nevertheless often critical of American military and economic 
might and what he saw as its deleterious impact on the world. Days after 
the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, he drew considerable attention, 
and condemnation for a widely circulated email in which he bluntly wrote:


“The great speculators wallow in an economy that every year kills tens 
of millions of people with poverty — so what is 20,000 dead in New York? 
Regardless of who carried out the massacre, this violence is the 
legitimate daughter of the culture of violence, hunger and inhumane 
exploitation.”


Dario Fo was born on March 24, 1926, in the small northern Italian town 
of Sangiano. His father, Felice, was a railway stationmaster, socialist 
and amateur actor, and his mother, Pina Rota, wrote an acclaimed 
autobiography, “Il Paese delle Rane” (“The Country of Frogs”), about her 
peasant family.


As a child, Dario would travel in a horse-drawn wagon around the 
countryside peddling vegetables with his maternal grandfather, who 
attracted customers by telling them stories spliced with news accounts 
and anecdotes about local events. Mr. Fo would later do much the same 
thing onstage.


Another important influence was the tragicomic narrative

Re: [Marxism] Is economic struggle subversive?

2016-10-14 Thread Paddy Hackett via Marxism

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Hi Mark

My point is political. In some ways, perhaps, my perspective is tangential to 
that of Lenin's What Is To Be Done. 

The glorification of economic struggle is to incarcerate politics in the 
capitalist cage. The struggle must break free from that cage by challenging the 
latter. This means that economic struggle must be transcended. But this does 
mean that economic struggle must be abandoned.

Take Care
Paddy

On 14 Oct 2016, at 14:34, Mark Lause  wrote:

The essence of a class struggle perspective makes it rather difficult to draw 
these kind of hard and fast lines.  Yes, you can might that a particular 
struggle is "economic" rather than "political" or vice versa.  What's important 
is that the participants and observers may all see it shades.  The challenge is 
to formulate a very fluid approach to anything that involves numbers of people 
significant enough to create an interesting dynamic.

ML

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[Marxism] People's Forum on BRICS


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Press Release

BRICS MUST TAKE LEGITIMATE AND CONVINCING STEPS TO DEFEND PEACE, PLANET 
AND PEOPLE'S INTERESTS: URGES PEOPLE'S FORUM

--

People's Forum on BRICS held in Goa develops a declaration for heads of 
state attending the 8th BRICS Summit

-

GOA, 14 October 2016: The People's Forum on BRICS that took place in Goa 
on the 13th and 14th of Goa witnessed several social movements and civil 
society formations, representing the people of at least 10 countries, 
make a declaration towards the official 8th BRICS summit in Goa.


The declaration has urged upon the BRICS nations to look at issues of 
Social, Economic and Environmental justice and has reminded the BRICS 
leadership of a time of an unprecedented crisis facing humanity and nature.


The forum has emphasised the threat that several democracies across the 
world are facing from reactionary and imperialist forces and has in 
particular drawn attention to the coup in Brazil that has overthrown a 
people's government.  The representatives also noticed with great 
concern the state repression of people's movements and student’s 
protests in countries including India and South Africa.


The declaration also points out the massive levels of ecological 
destruction that is taking place around the world, led by corporations 
and in collusion with the state.  Goa, the site of the summit is 
ironically at the receiving end of this destruction.


The Forum also pointed out the teetering world economy that is on the 
verge of another financial meltdown resulting in stocks and currency 
market crisis in many of the BRICS countries. The longer-term crisis of 
capitalism is evident in the marked slowdown in international trade, in 
declining global profit rates, and in business disinvestment, especially 
evident in the three BRICS which have negative or negligible GDP growth.


The world’s workers are losing rights, farmers are suffering to the 
point of suicide, and labour casualisation is rampant in all our 
countries, with the result that BRICS workers are engaged in regular 
protest and wildcat strikes, of which the strike by 180 million Indian 
workers inspired the world on 2 September;


On the social front, the threat to our already-inadequate welfare 
policies is serious, especially in Brazil’s coup regime but more 
generally across the BRICS where inadequate social policies are not 
providing adequate safety nets;


The commodification of public services is causing misery, such as in 
South Africa where university students are fighting hard for a fee-free, 
decolonised tertiary education;


Everywhere that people’s movements have made countervailing demands – 
such as democracy, peace, poverty eradication, sustainable development, 
equality, fair trade – the elites have co-opted our language and 
distorted our visions beyond recognition. Many of our leaders are 
hopelessly corrupt, and so when BRICS spin-doctors claim that their work 
in Goa will “build responsive, inclusive and collective solutions,” we 
have spent two days looking beyond the pleasing rhetoric and have found 
a very different, harsh reality.


In short, whereas we criticise the way world power is created and 
exercised, the BRICS leaders appear to simply want power sharing. To 
illustrate, the BRICS New Development Bank is working hand-in-glove with 
the World Bank; the Contingent Reserve Arrangement empowers the 
International Monetary Fund; and the Asian Infrastructure Investment 
Bank serves mainly corporate interests – and all these financial 
institutions lack opportunities for adequate civil society monitoring 
and participation.


As a result, the Forum has raised constructive critiques of BRICS in our 
plenaries and workshops. But beyond the analysis, we understand that 
only people’s power, across borders, can make change. Some of our most 
successful struggles – such as access to life-savings medicines or 
ending apartheid – required international solidarity. This Forum found 
many routes forward for cross-cutting BRICS internationalism in various 
sectors.


For example, the Forum recognises the need for a just solution to the 
Syrian crisis in accordance with the principles of international law, 
and condemns the US-backed aggression and the Pentagon/NATO doctrine of 
regime change. The Forum reaffirmed its solidarity with the Palestinian 
struggle against colonialism and occupation, and we endorse Boycotts, 
Divestment and Sanctions against apartheid Israel, including opposition 
to Israel’s attempted export of its unsustainable water and agricultural 
technologies to BRICS countries.
The social movements and progressive unions and

Re: [Marxism] Is economic struggle subversive?

2016-10-14 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism

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The essence of a class struggle perspective makes it rather difficult to
draw these kind of hard and fast lines.  Yes, you can might that a
particular struggle is "economic" rather than "political" or vice versa.
What's important is that the participants and observers may all see it
shades.  The challenge is to formulate a very fluid approach to anything
that involves numbers of people significant enough to create an interesting
dynamic.

ML
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Re: [Marxism] Is economic struggle subversive?

2016-10-14 Thread Paddy Hackett via Marxism

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Hi

I did not want to suggest that there is a disconnect between organised worker 
seeking wage increases and the struggle for revolution.

My ambition was more modest. I just wanted to highlight my view that these 
struggles by workers are economic struggles and not political. They are not a 
challenge to the system. However that does not mean I am necessarily against 
such actions by workers. But their modest nature needs to be recognised for 
what they are. Much of the Left tend to glorify, even fetishise, such 
interventions.

Take Care
Paddy

On 14 Oct 2016, at 14:12, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
 wrote:

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> On 10/14/16 8:55 AM, Mike Sola wrote:
>> On 10/14/2016 8:29 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>> What is this? The last of the DeLeonists?
>> _
> Isn't he saying the opposite of De Leon?
> 

I said DeLeonist, not De Leon.

Frankly, I have no idea whether there was a DeLeonist sect in Ireland but this 
distinction between reforms and "communism" comes straight out of the Socialist 
Labor Party, an American group based on De Leon's writings who despite positing 
the reform versus revolution dichotomy was still a formidable thinker.

His followers turned the reform versus revolution into a virtual religion 
standing on the sidelines throughout the 20th century casting aspersions on the 
CIO struggles of the 1930s, the Vietnam antiwar movement, etc. All of these 
"reforms" like creating industrial unions and ending the war on the Vietnamese 
were distractions from the main task: socialism.

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Re: [Marxism] Is economic struggle subversive?


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On 10/14/16 8:55 AM, Mike Sola wrote:

On 10/14/2016 8:29 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:

What is this? The last of the DeLeonists?
_

Isn't he saying the opposite of De Leon?



I said DeLeonist, not De Leon.

Frankly, I have no idea whether there was a DeLeonist sect in Ireland 
but this distinction between reforms and "communism" comes straight out 
of the Socialist Labor Party, an American group based on De Leon's 
writings who despite positing the reform versus revolution dichotomy was 
still a formidable thinker.


His followers turned the reform versus revolution into a virtual 
religion standing on the sidelines throughout the 20th century casting 
aspersions on the CIO struggles of the 1930s, the Vietnam antiwar 
movement, etc. All of these "reforms" like creating industrial unions 
and ending the war on the Vietnamese were distractions from the main 
task: socialism.



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Re: [Marxism] Is economic struggle subversive?


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On 10/14/16 7:46 AM, Paddy Hackett via Marxism wrote:


Hi

Economic struggles have a spontaneous character. They are not political
struggles although they may have political implications. They are struggles
that pursue demands that can be facilitated within the context of
capitalism. They do  not challenge capitalism.

Workers on strike in pursuit of a wage increase is merely "the collective
struggle of the workers against their employers for better terms in the
sale of their labour-power" (404) It has nothing, as such, to do with the
abolition of labour power as a commodity. This means that it has nothing,
as such, to do with the abolition of capitalism. It is a tacit acceptance
of capitalist relations. Even if the working class become increasingly
militant in its struggle for better terms in the sale of its labour power
it is still struggling for demands that are realisable from within the
capitalist economic system.

This applies too to the Right2Water campaign in Ireland despite its popular
and even militant character. It is an economic campaign the aim of which is
realisable within the capitalist economic system. It does not constitute a
challenge to the state nor even the government itself.



What is this? The last of the DeLeonists?
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[Marxism] Fwd: The Missing Gospel of CLR James