Re: [uf-discuss] Trying to learn microformats
Hello Tim, On 17/08/2010 08:52, Tim's Trees wrote: Martin, Thank you for your detailed reply. I had hoped my site would be a comprehensive list of events within a certain category. Let us say Craft Fairs and because of the searching I would provide, a user could select all Craft Fairs in the Cornwall area for the next 12 months. If each event was an hCalendar, then they could right click to add all to a Google Calendar and publish that Google Calendar. If I had hoped to generate some sort of advertising revenue from my original site, then this would potentially dilute that income stream. Not necessarily, If your site was just publishing events, then that is no bad thing you can always provide advertising along side the event data, the hope is that you will attract *more* visitors because you have published your data in a take away format i.e. hCalendar. They could similarly data-scrape the page and reformat and publish, but that would be more difficult. Indeed So my fear was/is, am I making it too easy to acquire my lists or should I take it as a compliment and not worry. Making your events/lists easy to acquire is a good thing on the whole, by doing so you are not only making it easy for the average person to do something with your data, you are also making it easy for search engines to store your data and include in their listings. Other sites may also want to do something with your data, but again don't worry too much about that, unless they are copying your entire website of course ;) Its the nature off the web these days to syndicate/re-publish data somewhere else. I was also looking at doing something similar with hListing for a classifieds' site. Good Idea :) Many thanks again for your excellent reply. No problem. Martin McEvoy Tim On 16 August 2010 23:12, Martin McEvoymar...@weborganics.co.uk wrote: On 16/08/2010 19:24, Tim's Trees wrote: Thank you all for your full and quick replies. You are welcome You were right, the original was a complete mismatch of quotes and once I had fixed those it displayed in Chrome and Operator:Firefox. I apologise for not spotting that. :) I have noted the urls you have recommended and will investigate those first in future. I am wanting to create an event site and I had the idea, I should have my entries in hCalendar format, but I am now worrying, that it may be too easy to clone my site, with a right click. Do you have any opinions on this ? Im a little unsure of what you mean if you mean by cloning perhaps you mean spoofing? ( copying a website possibly for fraud such as phishing or email-spoofing ) it doesn't really happen *too* much in the real world unless your site is a bank or it offers online payments in some way (e.g. PayPal), In which case I wouldn't worry to much about that. Having said all that Social Networking sites (Facebook/MySpace) are becoming targets for these kind of attacks nowadays. If you are worried about people copy and pasting from your website, unless its copyrighted material, again don't worry too much, Id take that as a compliment, the majority of people who *do* copy and paste tend to be just learning. If its for anything else the stuff they are copying will never do them any good as far as search engines are concerned because *you* published the data *first*. Some search engines (google) will actually remove pages that contain duplicate content from their listings, or it will bury the duplicate content so deep in their listings that there is no way anyone will ever see it anyway. The rule of thumb concerning microformats is, If you use microformats on your website you can expect your data to be shared, crawled and Indexed by practically anything that can consume microformats, If you don't want this to happen, say because your data is private or something sensitive, then don't use microformats. Dont let that last part put you off though, sharing your data, particularly events and contact details, *is* a good thing. Hope all that helps rest your mind a little. Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Trying to learn microformats
Hello Tim, On 16/08/2010 13:59, Tim's Trees wrote: I came across the following script, but I can not get it to be recognised as a microformat, by my browsers Chrome and Firefox, with the normal microformat extensions. Other microformats I have tried were recognised. The offending code is div class=”vevent” style=”display:none;” a class=”url” href=”http://www.zvents.com/fort-worth-tx/events/show/79634462″/a span class=”summary”Big Bad Voodoo Daddy/span abbr class=”dtstart” title=”20080309T20″ / abbr class=”dtend” title=”20080309T20″ / span class=”description”Musical Performance featuring Big Bad Voodoo Daddy/span span class=”location vcard” style=”display:none;” a href=”http://www.zvents.com/fort-worth-tx/venues/show/35132″ class=”url fn org” only_path=”false”Bass Performance Hall/a span class=”adr” span class=”locality”Fort Worth/span span class=”region”TX/span span class=”street-address”4th and Calhoun Streets/span /span /span /div It looks like you have some mixed quotes in there, if I copy and paste your example into notepad nothing seems to be amiss but if you paste into something else say dreamweaver or notepad2 you start to see the problem :) try validating. You can validate fragments of html at http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_input+with_options , check validate html fragment, you will see what the problem is. Microform.at has a transformer that transforms microformat fragments by direct input http://microform.at/direct/ which is useful for trying new markup, test before you publish ;) Hope all that helps, good luck. -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Trying to learn microformats
On 16/08/2010 19:24, Tim's Trees wrote: Thank you all for your full and quick replies. You are welcome You were right, the original was a complete mismatch of quotes and once I had fixed those it displayed in Chrome and Operator:Firefox. I apologise for not spotting that. :) I have noted the urls you have recommended and will investigate those first in future. I am wanting to create an event site and I had the idea, I should have my entries in hCalendar format, but I am now worrying, that it may be too easy to clone my site, with a right click. Do you have any opinions on this ? Im a little unsure of what you mean if you mean by cloning perhaps you mean spoofing? ( copying a website possibly for fraud such as phishing or email-spoofing ) it doesn't really happen *too* much in the real world unless your site is a bank or it offers online payments in some way (e.g. PayPal), In which case I wouldn't worry to much about that. Having said all that Social Networking sites (Facebook/MySpace) are becoming targets for these kind of attacks nowadays. If you are worried about people copy and pasting from your website, unless its copyrighted material, again don't worry too much, Id take that as a compliment, the majority of people who *do* copy and paste tend to be just learning. If its for anything else the stuff they are copying will never do them any good as far as search engines are concerned because *you* published the data *first*. Some search engines (google) will actually remove pages that contain duplicate content from their listings, or it will bury the duplicate content so deep in their listings that there is no way anyone will ever see it anyway. The rule of thumb concerning microformats is, If you use microformats on your website you can expect your data to be shared, crawled and Indexed by practically anything that can consume microformats, If you don't want this to happen, say because your data is private or something sensitive, then don't use microformats. Dont let that last part put you off though, sharing your data, particularly events and contact details, *is* a good thing. Hope all that helps rest your mind a little. Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] re: HTML5 support
On 20/07/2010 03:57, Oli Studholme wrote: Hey Scott, On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Scott Reynensc...@randomchaos.com wrote: Making specific cases easier is the whole point of microformats, but it's not at all the point of microdata. “Making specific cases easier is the whole point of the class attribute, but it's not at all the point of microdata” Microdata — and semantic class names plus posh coding patterns for current microformats — are the method; a means to an end. Microdata vocabularies use microdata to express semantics, just as microformats use the class attribute etc to express semantics. Microformats are a little more concise in general (cough, datetimes ;-) compared to the same vocabulary in microdata (@class is shorter than @itemprop by 4 characters, @property is optional whereas @itemtype is required etc), but the differences are not so great, and any class-based microformat can be written using microdata. Im sorry but you cannot express *microformats* in microdata if you do, its cute, but It isn't a microformat because microformats *only* use class names, and a few choice rel-values. If you move a microformat away from @class its no longer a microformat and shouldn't be described as such (we are a bit fussy about that :P). This is why when someone starts talking about a new microformats or microformats done better the first thing I ask myself is does it use semantic class names? ... no well its not a new microformat or microformats done better. Well the *good* news is HTML5 already supports microformats without adding any attributes at all (Yay!) that is until someone marks @class as obsolete!! ... joke. Best wishes. -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] re: HTML5 support
Hello Oli ... On 13/07/2010 17:59, Oli Studholme wrote: On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Martin McEvoymar...@weborganics.co.uk wrote I wouldnt really be surprised to see microdata disappear all together(but that's just my thought) But how could microdata possibly disappear now that Google supports it? ;) Because Microdata is far to obtrusive to be practical in the real world for example Microdata vcard example from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#vcard span itemscope itemtype=http://microformats.org/profile/hcard; span itemprop=fn span itemprop=n span itemprop=given-nameGeorge/span span itemprop=family-nameWashington/span /span /span /span 8 lines of code which would parse as: BEGIN:VCARD PROFILE:VCARD VERSION:3.0 SOURCE:document's address FN:George Washington N:Washington;George;;; END:VCARD great you would think, now try that using microformats, example from http://yiid.cc/3GI2 span class=vcard span class=fnGeorge Washington/span /span 3 lines of code which parses as: BEGIN:VCARD SOURCE:document's address NAME:document's title VERSION:3.0 N;CHARSET=UTF-8:Washington;George;;; FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:George Washington END:VCARD from a commercial and practical point of view, microdata is definitely not intended to be for humans first . Anyway believe what you like, microdata needs a *lot* of work before it can ever be considered as micro as far as I can see, at the moment It just confuses people into using an unnecessary semantic. Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] re: HTML5 support
Oli Please don't get me wrong microdata does offer some interesting potential as far as microformats are concerned, It just needs looking at with new eyes and in a way that can help microformats *and* be 100% compatible with the way microformats exist now. There are a couple of attributes that could really be useful to microformats, the itemscope attribute because its opaque, and itemref which very similar to the include pattern but better because it would allow an author to reference whole blocks of data not just a single property. example, you could have the following markup somewhere in a page: span id=contact class=vcard itemscope strong class=fnAlfred Hitchcock/strong /span and add different parts of a page say in the footer address itemref=contact class=adr itemscope span class=street-address1600 Amphitheatre Parkway/span br span class=street-addressBuilding 43, Second Floor/span br span class=localityMountain View/span, span class=regionCA/span span class=postal-code94043/span /address I don't see any problem in microformats adopting only the parts of microdata that are useful to microformats, there are probably others who will disagree with that though ;-) Best wishes. Martin On 14/07/2010 02:45, Martin McEvoy wrote: Hello Oli ... On 13/07/2010 17:59, Oli Studholme wrote: On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Martin McEvoymar...@weborganics.co.uk wrote I wouldnt really be surprised to see microdata disappear all together(but that's just my thought) But how could microdata possibly disappear now that Google supports it? ;) Because Microdata is far to obtrusive to be practical in the real world for example Microdata vcard example from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#vcard span itemscope itemtype=http://microformats.org/profile/hcard; span itemprop=fn span itemprop=n span itemprop=given-nameGeorge/span span itemprop=family-nameWashington/span /span /span /span 8 lines of code which would parse as: BEGIN:VCARD PROFILE:VCARD VERSION:3.0 SOURCE:document's address FN:George Washington N:Washington;George;;; END:VCARD great you would think, now try that using microformats, example from http://yiid.cc/3GI2 span class=vcard span class=fnGeorge Washington/span /span 3 lines of code which parses as: BEGIN:VCARD SOURCE:document's address NAME:document's title VERSION:3.0 N;CHARSET=UTF-8:Washington;George;;; FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:George Washington END:VCARD from a commercial and practical point of view, microdata is definitely not intended to be for humans first . Anyway believe what you like, microdata needs a *lot* of work before it can ever be considered as micro as far as I can see, at the moment It just confuses people into using an unnecessary semantic. Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] re: HTML5 support
On 12/07/2010 17:31, Tantek Celik wrote: If you can verify the changes made in microdata are consistent with hCard etc (rather than a fork), and cite the specific changes, then it makes sense to make updates. It may be relevant to note that microdata is no longer part of the HTML5 core [1] . microdata does however exist as a separate specification [2] but is just attributes and as far as I know, microdata vCard and vEvent no longer exists as part of the microdata specification do they?. I wouldnt really be surprised to see microdata disappear all together(but that's just my thought) Best wishes [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/ -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] ANN: Transformr Version 1.0
Hello all I am Pleased to announce Transformr version 1.0[1] Transformr Version 1.0 fixes most of the bugs that existed in previous 0.X.X versions. Transformr 1.0 uses the latest version of ARC2[2] for processing and parsing all rdf output. RDF transformations now allow you specify alternative RDF output such as rdfjson, ntriples, turtle, RDFa and HTML+microdata . With special thanks to Matthias Pfefferle There is a NEW webservice, available at http://microform.at/ which should prove more robust and permanent than the previous web-service at transformr.co.uk ( which no longer exists ) 1.0 supports get by referrer and get by referrer ID which means that you can easily create links from your website that extract individual hcards, hatom, hcalendar ...etc. there are some examples of get by referrer id here http://weborganics.co.uk/demo/referer More information on conversion urls is availble here : http://github.com/WebOrganics/TransFormr#readme. [1] http://github.com/WebOrganics/TransFormr [2] http://arc.semsol.org/ Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat h-names contradict the process documentation
Hello Andriy Welcome On 22/03/2010 20:38, Andriy Drozdyuk wrote: I see the microformats in the upcoming drafts section all named: hAtom, hAudio, hListing, hMedia, hNews, hProduct, hRecipe, hResume, hReview While in the actual documentation: http://microformats.org/wiki/process one can find this philosophy: DO NOT start with even labeling your effort hXYZ. This is a very common mistake. Most of the drafts you mention above did not *start* out being named hAtom, hAudio .. etc. hAtom was simply about a blog posts format, hAudio was audio info and hMedia was media info... what I am trying to say is that it was only in the final stages of the process they were given their h prefix names, they didn't start out that way. What is the purpose of naming things with h prefixes and using all kinds of abbreviations? (e.g. adr instead of address). For most new microformats, those that were created using the process, get their naming conventions from hCard and hCalendar the h bit has just been re-used from them. Personally in the case of hAudio and hMedia I wouldn't mind if they lost their h-bit at the beginning I believe the would be more modular and easier to mix with other microformats... but that's just me ;) The adr property comes from hCard which gets its naming conventions from the vCard rfc http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt, but as a rule its not really common to abbreviate or shorten words you will find that microformats use short meaningful class names mostly. It's already on the web (hence html) - shouldn't it be clear that it's (h)tml? The h bit of microformat class names in *most* cases is short for HTML version of, http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q._What_is_the_.27h.27_for.2C_in_front_of_Calendar_and_Card.3F Think this is this thing, represented in html -- Frances Berriman http://www.mail-archive.com/microformats-discuss@microformats.org/msg11051.html but there are some variations of its meaning, the best interpretation I have seen is ... hAtom, hCard, hCalendar, hReview etc are all named after the character Horatio H Caine from the popular police procedural television series CSI: Miami. -- Toby Inkster http://www.mail-archive.com/microformats-discuss@microformats.org/msg11054.html Best wishes. -- Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] question regarding webslices
Hello André André Luís wrote: Hello all, first of all, yes, I know webslices are a feature on a browser from a corporation, but since they are 99% hatom, this is the best place I can think of to ask for help. (the remaining 1% is a huge mess, btw) Has anyone been successful at implementing webslices? I have had some success - If so, what was the doctype of the document? It doesnt seem to matter ... - did you run into any troubles w/ mime types? No . - do you know what might be causing the slice to show an error message along the lines of Can't render the content? or simply CSS-less content? I'm using a rel=feedurl to specify a page from which the browser should get the updates. ahh this is where we differ I use @rel=default-slice like this example from my home page : link rel=default-slice type=application/x-hatom href=http://weborganics.co.uk/#slice/ That page is different. I just print the portion of the webslice there. From what I can tell the web slice has to be on the *same page* for you to be able to subscribe to it. I didn't do much to implement web slices all I did was add a hslice to my hentry, added an ID and linked to It using the auto discovery link I described above. If you have an example? then I will be more than happy to take a look ;) Best Wishes -- Martin McEvoy WebOrganics http://weborganics.co.uk/ Add to address book: http://transformr.co.uk/hcard/http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: H2VX.com is feature complete. was Re: [uf-discuss] Concerning the Technorati pipes
Tantek Çelik wrote: If folks write new XSLTs to handles more conversions, we can certainly take a look at setting them up (e.g. an hNews or hAtom + value-class-pattern to Atom or RSS converter). Transformr [1] has implemented an hAtom + value-title [2] to RSS2 converter, you have to turn the tidying process off to parse value-title properly because because empty elements are stripped during tidying. If your documents are well formed XHTML you shouldn't have any problems. If you have to tidy your document then it is recommended that you add a non breaking space inside your value-title property eg: span class=value-title title=nbsp;/span I know you may get an ugly tool tip if someone hovers over the space, but ? You can point your hAtom page at http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/your url. some examples: http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/http://microformats.org/tidy=no http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-patterntidy=no [1] http://transformr.co.uk/ [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-pattern#Using_value-title_to_publish_machine-data Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy WebOrganics http://weborganics.co.uk/ Add to address book: http://transformr.co.uk/hcard/http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: H2VX.com is feature complete. was Re: [uf-discuss] Concerning the Technorati pipes
Martin McEvoy wrote: Tantek Çelik wrote: If folks write new XSLTs to handles more conversions, we can certainly take a look at setting them up (e.g. an hNews or hAtom + value-class-pattern to Atom or RSS converter). Transformr [1] has implemented an hAtom + value-title [2] to RSS2 converter, you have to turn the tidying process off to parse value-title properly because because empty elements are stripped during tidying. If your documents are well formed XHTML you shouldn't have any problems. If you have to tidy your document then it is recommended that you add a non breaking space inside your value-title property eg: span class=value-title title=nbsp;/span I know you may get an ugly tool tip if someone hovers over the space, but ? You can point your hAtom page at http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/your url. some examples: http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/http://microformats.org/tidy=no http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-patterntidy=no [1] http://transformr.co.uk/ [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-pattern#Using_value-title_to_publish_machine-data Sorry I forgot to add that it is also possible to extract a RSS2 enclosures (a podcast) by simply adding a rel-enclosure[1] to hAtom. example: a rel=enclosure type=audio/mpeg href=...today's podcast/a. If you also wish to extract the required length attribute of a RSS2 enclosure you can pass that along with the type specifier example: a rel=enclosure type=type=audio/mpeg;length=22334669 href=...today's podcast/a. The length is the size of the file in bytes. Thanks. -- Martin McEvoy WebOrganics http://weborganics.co.uk/ Add to address book: http://transformr.co.uk/hcard/http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: H2VX.com is feature complete. was Re: [uf-discuss] Concerning the Technorati pipes
Martin McEvoy wrote: Martin McEvoy wrote: Tantek Çelik wrote: If folks write new XSLTs to handles more conversions, we can certainly take a look at setting them up (e.g. an hNews or hAtom + value-class-pattern to Atom or RSS converter). Transformr [1] has implemented an hAtom + value-title [2] to RSS2 converter, you have to turn the tidying process off to parse value-title properly because because empty elements are stripped during tidying. If your documents are well formed XHTML you shouldn't have any problems. If you have to tidy your document then it is recommended that you add a non breaking space inside your value-title property eg: span class=value-title title=nbsp;/span I know you may get an ugly tool tip if someone hovers over the space, but ? You can point your hAtom page at http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/your url. some examples: http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/http://microformats.org/tidy=no http://transformr.co.uk/rss2/http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-patterntidy=no [1] http://transformr.co.uk/ [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-pattern#Using_value-title_to_publish_machine-data Sorry I forgot to add that it is also possible to extract a RSS2 enclosures (a podcast) by simply adding a rel-enclosure[1] to hAtom. example: a rel=enclosure type=audio/mpeg href=...today's podcast/a. If you also wish to extract the required length attribute of a RSS2 enclosure you can pass that along with the type specifier example: a rel=enclosure type=type=audio/mpeg;length=22334669 href=...today's podcast/a. The length is the size of the file in bytes. Thanks. Sigh! [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-enclosure :) -- Martin McEvoy WebOrganics http://weborganics.co.uk/ Add to address book: http://transformr.co.uk/hcard/http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] value-title feedback
Hello All, I have been trying to implement the value-title pattern over at GetSemantic [1] (The next version of Transformr) and stumbled across a problem. Simply adding a space eg: span class='value-title' /span still results in HTML-Tidy discarding the value as suggested here: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Parsing_machine-data_value-title, because Tidy (by default) drops all empty elements, with no character data. here is a live example of what happens, source: http://microformats.org/2009/10/06/recently-2009-09 markup: a title=Permanent Link to Recently in microformats: 2009-09 rel=bookmark href=http://microformats.org/2009/10/06/recently-2009-09; class=updated span title=2009-10-06T16:19:10 class=value-title /span Tuesday, October 6th, 2009 at 4:19 pm/a after tidying : http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/tidy?docAddr=http://microformats.org/2009/10/06/recently-2009-09 a title=Permanent Link to Recently in microformats: 2009-09 rel=bookmark href=http://microformats.org/2009/10/06/recently-2009-09; class=updatedTuesday, October 6th, 2009 at 4:19 pm/a The only way I have found to stop this from occurring is either don't use tidy, which in some cases makes the source document impossible to parse if the html is invalid, or add a nbsp; instead of a space eg: span class='value-title'nbsp;/span which seems a little unintuitive to me. hmm? Thanks -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard as page owner's: what signifies
Hello Nick, Nick Levinson wrote: How do I mark an hCard as being the page owner's? I need a method that can be used simultaneously with marking it as representative, content author, and page contact. I didn't see a method on http://microformats.org/wiki/hcards-and-pages. It can't be what's left over after the other three types are signified, since many people who fit none of the four types may be on one page with their own hCards. Thank you. The most common way of doing this I have found is just adding a rel=me to the page owners hcard some examples in the wild are : Social networks: http://www.last.fm/user/steveganz a class=url homepage rel=me href=http://steve.ganz.name/;steve.ganz.name/a http://identi.ca/csarven a class=url rel=me href=http://csarven.ca/;http://csarven.ca//a http://twitter.com/mollydotcom a target=_blank rel=me nofollow class=url href=http://molly.com/;http://molly.com//a Blogs and home pages: http://www.ablognotlimited.com/ a class=url rel=home me href=http://www.ablognotlimited.com;A Blog Not Limited/a http://kevinmarks.com/ a href=http://kevinmarks.com; rel=me class=url fn n uid span class=given-nameKevin/span span class=family-nameMarks/span /a http://adactio.com/journal/ a rel=me class=url href=http://adactio.com/;Adactio/a Hope that helps Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Announcing Oomph2 -- An Update To The Mix Online Microformats Tools
Hello Karsten Karsten Januszewski wrote: * Support for hMedia Great stuff, a very good implementation of hMedia. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] AP News microformat?
Brian Suda wrote: http://www.mediastandardstrust.org/medianews/newsdetails.aspx?sid=46551 Has anyone heard about the APs attempt to make a microformat? Did i miss something or did they just go and do their own thing? I think they went out and did their own thing, the draft hNews microformat is here: http://www.valueaddednews.org/technical/techspec It says it was published in August 2008. Best wishes Martin ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean?
Thanks all for your response to this question some of it was quite surprising particularly Tobys, H is for Horatio from CSI , I have never heard of that great stuff. A quick recap h in microformats means: 1 the HTML version of or just HTML 2 The Greek letter micro μ (Mu) inverted 3 In hAtom, it the Irish pronunciation of h next to a vowel which is softly spoken with a strong spoken A as in hay (is this correct David?) 4 The H from Horatio Cain Thanks again Martin ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] What does the 'h' in microformats mean?
Hello all I wander if anyone can tell me what the 'h' in microformats means? I have always thought 'h' was for 'hypertext' but could it mean 'hypermedia' or even 'html' perhaps it means nothing? best wishes Martin http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] XFN 1.1 and CC BY-ND
Toby Inkster wrote: Given the public domain policy, does XFN 1.1's licence make it ineligible as a microformat? Ditto XMDP. Yes I have had problems with this bit: *No Derivative Works* — You may not alter, transform, or build upon this work. Does this mean I cant map and transform XFN to RDF? there is this bit though... *Waiver* — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder. Who do I ask? Thanks. -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Hatom (hcard) pictures author
Hello Raphael I think you should take a look a hMedia[1] which seems to suit your purpose there is an example of how to mark up images with hMedia [2] Best wishes Martin [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hmedia [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hmedia#Images Raphael García Lepper wrote: Toby A Inkster wrote: Three possibilities for you to consider: 1. Mark up the author of the text using hAtom and the pictures using figure http://microformats.org/wiki/figure. You should beware that figure is still a draft and might change in the future. 2. Use the hCard role property to indicate which person did which. 3. Consider RDFa - in RDFa when you say that someone is an author of something, you also say what they authored. A basic example would be something like this: div id=an-article xmlns:dc=http://purl.org/dc/terms/; pBlah, blah, blah./p img src=a-picture.jpeg alt=... pBlah, blah, blah./p span about=#an-article property=dc:creatorAlice/span span about=a-picture.jpeg property=dc:creatorBob/span /div Hello, thanks for your answer. Some points about the possibilities you propose: For the first option, what I'd need is to indicate that all images in current entry where done by someone different from the writer, so figure draft microformat doesn't fit in the intention, but I may use it for every single picture within a review or a news. The second option, role property is not very well documented in the hcard wiki page, but seems to be to specify the business category of a person, not to indicate this person is author for the pictures in current entry. It might work for this one though, I'll read more about it, I'd appreciate any links to information about this property and it's usages (different from what google returns). Third option is actually something I've being considering, but I haven't yet figured out how to implement RDFa. RDFa Primer is very clear about it's possibilities but it's syntax and usage are quite messy for me, like almost every w3c document. I'll keep trying though. Regards Rafa ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin
It looks to me like the wiki is being spammed by a bot or bots, I have suffered problems like this. I stopped it by changing the form names to to something gibberish, nothing standard wpTextbox1 would be come ZifG5ut nonsense basically, a good Idea is to change the form names regularly, then you can encode the submit, preview and show pages buttons in Java script and insert them using a function. Its effective because most people who run bots to spam wikis and blogs dont want to be bothered creating a special script just for your site, they go for the low hanging fruit, the easy money and in the end its nothing personal they just move on ;-) Hope this Helps Ben Ward wrote: Hi Toby, On 5 Jan 2009, at 01:05, Toby A Inkster wrote: I don't know much about MediaWiki, but surely it's possible to create a plugin which looks at edits from users with no edit history, and blocks the edit if and only if it seems to create a one-word paragraph at the top of the page? Maybe. And, yes, probably. Alas, the plugins I've written for MW are just simple parsing extensions, more complex stuff I've no idea about the capabilities. I've created a new issue under wiki-2-issues (http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-2-issues#Spam) for this one. If we could try to collect notes of things we think should be enhanced with MW extensions over the next week (on wiki-2-issues), then we'll push the most urgent onto the microformats blog and around our various networks and see if someone more experienced with MW can help us out. Of course, if that person is already on µf-discuss, help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope! B ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hatom comments?
James Tindall wrote: Hello and Happy New Year to all, Happy new year to you too James I'm looking for some guidance on how to markup comments in hatom formatted xhtml - I've seen the comment on the hatom issues page from Ken Wronkiewicz but didn't find the RFC 4864 link particularly enlightening. Any examples would be appreciated. There is a fairly recent effort here http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming also you may like to look here http://microformats.org/wiki/comment for the full history I hope you find that helpful Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Re: Hypermedia Podcast (hCast)
Hello again Just Informing you all of an update to hCast... There is a new web service that extracts RSS2 from hAtom available at http://transformr.co.uk/mrss/http://your.url/ The web service will extract RSS2 in three ways * hAtom to RSS2 * hAtom + rel-enclosure to RSS2 with Enclosures (a podcast) * hAtom + media-info to RSS2 with enclosures and MRSS extensions If you are just using hAtom + rel-enclosure the only required element of enclosure is a type specifier, optionally you may also add a length(size) in bites example: a rel=enclosure type=video/mp4;length=18454938 href=http://www.viddler.com/explore/factoryjoe/videos/2.m4v;Original/a Best Wishes Martin McEvoy wrote: Hello, Happy Christmas All. I am pleased to announce hCast short for Hypermedia Podcast hCast[1] combines two microformats, hAtom[2] and Media Info (hMedia)[3] to create a single distribution format suitable for any hypermedia content. The output of the hCast format is RSS2[4] + MRSS[5] extensions which can be syndicated and subscribed to using a media player such as iTunes[6] or Adobe Media Player[7]. [1] http://weborganics.co.uk/hCast/ [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-proposal [4] http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html [5] http://search.yahoo.com/mrss [6] http://www.apple.com/itunes/ [7] http://www.adobe.com/products/mediaplayer/ Thank You -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Hypermedia Podcast (hCast)
Hello, Happy Christmas All. I am pleased to announce hCast short for Hypermedia Podcast hCast[1] combines two microformats, hAtom[2] and Media Info (hMedia)[3] to create a single distribution format suitable for any hypermedia content. The output of the hCast format is RSS2[4] + MRSS[5] extensions which can be syndicated and subscribed to using a media player such as iTunes[6] or Adobe Media Player[7]. [1] http://weborganics.co.uk/hCast/ [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-proposal [4] http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html [5] http://search.yahoo.com/mrss [6] http://www.apple.com/itunes/ [7] http://www.adobe.com/products/mediaplayer/ Thank You -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard UID was: hatom tumblr theme
Hello Brian, Brian Suda wrote: On 12/18/08, Martin McEvoy mar...@weborganics.co.uk wrote: I'd just like to clear up at least one assumption, if only for myself. I don't believe anyone is advocating that UIDs may *only* be URLs. Agreed, I dont believe that either quite the opposite truthfully, Its the way UID is being used in microformats that is troubling me A huge amount of published hcards that I have seen are almost exclusively using url+uid which leads me to the assumption. --- Do you have a reference for Huge amount, what source and what is leading you to that assumption? Well Huge is probably the wrong wording, almost all is better (sorry for the over dramatization) The truth is not many people use uid at all but I would say the concept is catching on and now I think that the definition of what a uid is needs to be talked about and clarified more. I am just talking this through with you, as I have said in previous emails, I don't have a real problem with UID I just want to define the value more. I think my problems are more aesthetics, or semantics, UID in vCard is a globally unique identifier of the individual which means that the value is unique in any context, I would also say that the value is a URI, For a URL to also be a URI it should display three basic concepts URI, Resource, Representation eg: (in simple terms) URI = http://somewebsite.com/ Resource = Joe Blogs Representation = A webpage ...the above is pretty much how it goes in microformats usage along with presentation which is the contained microformats. I disagree slightly with that my thinking goes a little like this... URI = http://somewebsite.com/ Resource = hcard Representation = Joe Blogs the Resource that is being identified should be the hCard because it contains the Representation of Joe Blogs, this is the question that is causing me problems. Thanks for your feedback Brian -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard UID was: hatom tumblr theme
Scott Reynen wrote: On [Dec 17], at [ Dec 17] 4:13 , Martin McEvoy wrote: The above does not make any sense (to me), UID in microformats 99% of the time is hooked on the URL value, URL's are *not* globally unique to people just unique to the domain That may be true in some cases, but it's certainly not universally true. Here's a URL that is unique to you: http://microformats.org/wiki/User:WebOrganics Here's a URL that is unique to me: http://microformats.org/wiki/User:ScottReynen Those URLs are not OpenIDs, but are usable as UIDs. It's not really difficult to find such URLs; almost every site you use with an account creates a URL that identifies you and only you. Hello Scott.. OK that's community blogs and wiki's dealt with... many people share urls with other people Sure, and such URLs should not be used as UIDs. The use of URLs as UIDs does not suggest that *every* URL makes a good UID, just that there are enough to be usable. Agreed, some people still may not have any choice. I think (maybe) that the use of http urls in hCard for UID's is not compliant with hCalendar UID Description: The UID itself MUST be a globally unique identifier. The generator of the identifier MUST guarantee that the identifier is unique. There are several algorithms that can be used to accomplish this. The identifier is RECOMMENDED to be the identical syntax to the [RFC 822] addr-spec. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2445#section-4.8.4.7 Which seems to suggest that maybe an email address is more favourable as a UID not a http reference? I spotted this today http://microformats.org/wiki/uid-brainstorming#abbr_pattern apparently you can use the abbr pattern to mark up a UID which is a great fall back solution because Authors can specify a UID that they know is unique. abbr class=uid title=urn:isbn:09507881200 9507881-2-0/abbr The above is supported by the hCard validator and Operator, probably more, but not X2V for some reason see http://hcard.geekhood.net/?url=http://weborganics.co.uk/test/hcard-test.html for an example of UID using the abbr design pattern Thanks. -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] hCard UID was: hatom tumblr theme
Brian Suda wrote: So the UID is NOT the vCard itself, but connected to the data that is contained within it. This is how you can do identity consolidation. How you know that vCard over there with UID:123 is the same person as this vCard over here with UID:123 Even if they both have different information. This is why we have been trying to connect UID and URL, much like XFN and OpenID your identity is your URL, which is globally unique. Hello Brian, The above does not make any sense (to me), UID in microformats 99% of the time is hooked on the URL value, URL's are *not* globally unique to people just unique to the domain, many people share urls with other people, so Identity consolidation via uid+url wont work. Also there is a problem when exporting transformed vCards to your address book, If I have one hcard over there and another hcard over here same name and url+uid but the rest of the contact information is different, wont my address book just write over any existing contacts with the same UID 's?. Identity consolidation may work using OpenID urls but how many people in the wild publish their OpenID url Thanks -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard UID was: hatom tumblr theme
Martin McEvoy wrote: I believe PURL's should be promoted as URL's that can also be UID's an Author can guarantee global uniqueness even if 10 different purl's point to the same address or an Author changes his website from time to time because the purl will never change. Here is mine http://purl.org/net/MartinMcEvoy Much happier now :-) Thanks -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hatom tumblr theme
Brian Suda wrote: On 12/16/08, Martin McEvoy mar...@weborganics.co.uk wrote: Hello Scott I don't understand your issue , are you suggesting that a hcard may have more than one UID element? The UID element *is* the Unique Identifier of an entire hcard/vcard http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties#uid --- Scott is talking about the definition of UID from the RFC itself. There is always the possibility that the wiki is not correct. FROM: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2426#page-24 3.6.7 UID Type Definition To: ietf-mime-direct...@imc.org Subject: Registration of text/directory MIME type UID Type name: UID Type purpose: To specify a value that represents a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated with the vCard. So the UID is NOT the vCard itself, but connected to the data that is contained within it. This is how you can do identity consolidation. How you know that vCard over there with UID:123 is the same person as this vCard over here with UID:123 Even if they both have different information. This is why we have been trying to connect UID and URL, much like XFN and OpenID your identity is your URL, which is globally unique. I will update the wiki page. Hello Brian, Thank you for the clarification, the wiki page has had that definition for 2 and a half years. http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-singular-propertiesoldid=7065 Makes me think how much more information on the wiki is wrong or misleading? Thanks -brian -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hatom tumblr theme
Hello Toby, James Toby A Inkster wrote: James Tindall: Incidentally however, this vcard validator now complains that uid should not appear twice on a page with the same value? http://hcard.geekhood.net/?url=microformats.tumblr.com There is no prohibition on reusing UIDs in the hCard spec, but hcard.geekhood.net goes far beyond the spec with regards to suggesting best practices and things you might have missed. In general, I think it's a good tool, but in this case I (personally) disagree with it. If Joe has an hCard for himself on his index.html and another hCard for himself on his contact-me.html, then nobody would think twice about giving them both the same UID. So if two hCards on different pages can have the same UID, then why not two hCards on the same page? What is important (and again this is just my opinion) is that if two hCards do have the same UID (whether they're on different pages or the same page), then they should be referring to the same contact (person, organisation, place, whatever). To back up my argument, I'll cite the vCard spec (RFC 2426) which defines the purpose of UID as: To specify a value that represents a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated with the vCard. That is, the UID is a unique identifier for the contact, not a unique identifier for the card. Nope you will find that the UID is for the entire vcard I've contacted Kornel about this warning message and suggested that he change it so that the warning is only issued if two hCards have the same UID but different FNs. I would say that is wrong too, what is wrong with that is how authors commonly mark up the UID of a hCard in microformats eg: a class=url uid href=http://myfoosite.com/;myfoosite/a where this all falls apart is that if there is more than one regular author of a site they might all want to use the same url, Its easily solvable by adding @id to a hCard and using a relative url a class=url uid href=http://myfoosite.com/#person1;myfoosite/a a class=url uid href=http://myfoosite.com/#person2;myfoosite/a All that aside UID should *only* really be used once on a page to define a single authoritative point of contact, using more than one UID really seems to defeat the object when you think about it.. As an aside, I'll point out that I do *not* recommend using the same UID for the historic hCards in a resume, because in that situation, merging details is not the desired behaviour - you want them to be kept separate. Best Wishes. -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hatom tumblr theme
Scott Reynen wrote: On [Dec 15], at [ Dec 15] 12:54 , Martin McEvoy wrote: To back up my argument, I'll cite the vCard spec (RFC 2426) which defines the purpose of UID as: To specify a value that represents a globally unique identifier corresponding to the individual or resource associated with the vCard. That is, the UID is a unique identifier for the contact, not a unique identifier for the card. Nope you will find that the UID is for the entire vcard That seems to directly contradict the RFC as Toby quoted. Everything after this seems to hinge on what UID means, so clearing this up may resolve everything else. What exactly do you mean by you will find? Find somewhere other than the RFC? Hello Scott I don't understand your issue , are you suggesting that a hcard may have more than one UID element? The UID element *is* the Unique Identifier of an entire hcard/vcard http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties#uid Find on a different reading of the RFC? I'm not finding that at all in my reading of the RFC, which seems to be pretty much the same as Toby's, i.e. the UID is for the contact, not the vCard. I rely on this definition of UID every time I sync my address book. Two vCards with the same UID are assumed to be the same contact, because the UID identifies the contact. If UID were for the vCard, those two vCards would necessarily have different UIDs and I'd end up with duplicate contacts in my address book. Correct, what If I had multiple hcards on a single page for different organizations or companies I work for all marked containing uid, every @href attribute may be different but all essentially Me, In my address book I have multiple contacts for the same person, Don't you? Anyway you missed my point what I was saying is that no two uid values on a page should be the same even if they are for different people, make them different somehow. what I said about authoritative hcard, I ment representative hcard sorry my mistake Thanks -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hatom tumblr theme
James Tindall wrote:
Great spot David, the microformatic hatom to atom transformer now
extracts the content successfully. Thanks!
Hello James,
Also tested working at
http://transformr.co.uk/hatom/http://microformats.tumblr.com/
great stuff James.
David Janes wrote:
Hmmm ... HTML Tidy on this gets upset at the DISQUS script line:
document.write('script type=text/javascript src=http://disqus.co...
If you change this to:
document.write('' + 'script type=text/javascript
src=http://disqus.co...
does it get better?
Regards, etc...
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 9:19 AM, James Tindall ja...@atomless.com
wrote:
I've just put together a microformats theme for tumblr that
implements hatom. The microformats transformer Optimus
(http://microformatique.com/optimus) seems to be able to
seccessfully transform the content to Atom format but the
microformatic hatom to atom parser fails. I'm wondering if this is
due to some of the invalid markup that I know is generated by the
tumblr system but is beyond the control of any theme or if there are
any problems with the way I've implemented hatom?
If anyone on this list has a second to take a look the theme is
hosted here: http://microformats.tumblr.com/ and the source for the
theme is here:
http://github.com/atomless/a-microformats-theme-for-tumblr/tree/master
james
--
James Tindall
http://jamestindall.info/
--
Martin McEvoy
http://weborganics.co.uk/
You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently
inanimate as the Earth is alive.
Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hatom tumblr theme
Toby A Inkster wrote: Me too! Of course, the more the merrier :-D http://srv.buzzword.org.uk/atom/microformats.tumblr.com/ http://srv.buzzword.org.uk/icalendar/microformats.tumblr.com/ http://srv.buzzword.org.uk/vcard/microformats.tumblr.com/ Note that the vCard output contains many different James Tindalls. If you gave all your hCards the same uid it would (using the most technical language possible...) glue them together and the vCard output would just contain one contact. -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive. Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hatom tumblr theme
David Janes wrote:
Ooo ... can I play too? ;-)
http://tinyurl.com/5utaod
You can If you like... :-)
Regards, etc...
David
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Martin McEvoy
mar...@weborganics.co.uk wrote:
Martin McEvoy wrote:
James Tindall wrote:
Great spot David, the microformatic hatom to atom transformer now extracts the
content successfully. Thanks!
Hello James,
Also tested working at
http://transformr.co.uk/hatom/http://microformats.tumblr.com/
Interestingly enough there is a FOAF file too
http://transformr.co.uk/hfoaf/http://microformats.tumblr.com/ ;-)
great stuff James.
David Janes wrote:
Hmmm ... HTML Tidy on this gets upset at the DISQUS script line:
document.write('script type=text/javascript src=http://disqus.co...
If you change this to:
document.write('' + 'script type=text/javascript src=http://disqus.co...
does it get better?
Regards, etc...
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 9:19 AM, James Tindall ja...@atomless.com wrote:
I've just put together a microformats theme for tumblr that implements hatom.
The microformats transformer Optimus (http://microformatique.com/optimus) seems
to be able to seccessfully transform the content to Atom format but the
microformatic hatom to atom parser fails. I'm wondering if this is due to some
of the invalid markup that I know is generated by the tumblr system but is
beyond the control of any theme or if there are any problems with the way I've
implemented hatom?
If anyone on this list has a second to take a look the theme is hosted here:
http://microformats.tumblr.com/ and the source for the theme is here:
http://github.com/atomless/a-microformats-theme-for-tumblr/tree/master
james
--
James Tindall
http://jamestindall.info/
--
Martin McEvoy
http://weborganics.co.uk/
You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently
inanimate as the Earth is alive.
Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
--
David Janes
Mercenary Programmer
http://code.davidjanes.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
--
Martin McEvoy
http://weborganics.co.uk/
You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently
inanimate as the Earth is alive.
Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
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Re: [uf-discuss] hFoaF - Hypertext Friend of a Friend
Toby A Inkster wrote: This (on this-page): a href=that-page rev=made vote-forthat page/a means: that-page made this-page that-page is voted for by this-page And this: a href=that-page rel=made vote-forthat page/a means: this-page made that-page this-page is voted for by that-page OK Toby :-) , lets agree to differ, I think that because rev=made has been so badly abused and its definition in html is unclear compared to the foaf definition of made, I have dropped rev=made completely, (it makes my head hurt thinking about it), In favour of rev=author which is used to link from your homepage to things that you have authored. Thanks -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hFoaF - Hypertext Friend of a Friend
Hello Toby Toby A Inkster wrote: Good work, Martin. As I am rubbish at XSLT, these few notes are mainly from a FOAF perspective: Thank you :-) 1. RDF (and thus FOAF, which is an application of RDF) uses URIs to identify virtually everything. (There are exceptions: literals and blank nodes.) What is important for RDF to work is that each distinct resource (i.e. thing) has a distinct URI. No two resources can share a URI - syntactically there is nothing to prevent them sharing, but semantically it doesn't work - things fall apart when you start feeding your data into any sort of reasoning system. Good catch Toby, I meant to fix this, Its fixed now by generating unique rdf:nodeID 's 2. You seem to have rel=author and rev=made back to front. They are not for linking to stuff which you've authored/made; they are for linking *from* stuff that you've authored *to* you! If you want to link from *you* to stuff that you've authored, use rev=author or rel=made. Oh Oh this discussion again, right and wrong in brief I only allowed for rel=author because I was told by the HTML5 WG that that it is the same as rev=made see: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/structured-client-side-storage.html#link-type-author If, I accept that rel=made on my homepage is to link to things I have made the relationship is defined as how THAT page relates to the referencing page example: a rel=made href=http://someapp.com/;I made this app/a would translate as http://someapp.com/ made http://referencingpage.com which is wrong as someapp has not made referencingpage lets try that with rev instead a rev=made href=http://someapp.com/;I made this app/a would translate as http://referencingpage.com/ made http://someapp.com/ much better! Think of vote-links[1] and how they work, instead of saying the referencing page is a vote-* , its saying that it has made, [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/vote-links 3. In your example output, your foaf:name is MartinMcEvoy (no space). Thanks Fixed, the xslt was stripping all spaces Thank you for your valuable feedback. -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hFoaF - Hypertext Friend of a Friend
Toby A Inkster wrote: Martin McEvoy wrote: a rev=made href=http://someapp.com/;I made this app/a would translate as http://referencingpage.com/ made http://someapp.com/ much better! No, it really is the other way around! Do you think? so the above example would translate as... http://someapp.com/ made http://referencingpage.com/ change that example to a vote link a rev=vote-for href=http://someapp.com/;I made this app/a your interpretation would translate as http://someapp.com/ vote-for http://referencingpage.com/ Is this correct? [...] The way you're interpreting it is as made by which is a perfectly natural and sensible interpretation, Which is what I am intending to mean but wrong according to the specification of the term, and how it's used in the wild. There is some evidence to say that in the wild most authors use rev=made wrongly This is a good illustration of why verbs are a bad idea as link types - nouns or adjectives work better. Agreed :-) Thanks again Toby. -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] hFoaF - Hypertext Friend of a Friend
Hello All Just a quick note to inform those who are interested hFoaF[1] or Hypertext Friend of a Friend, has been updated to version 0.3, there is also a blog post[2] to accompany this update and a copy and paste demo[3] with a GRDDL Profile [4] Best wishes [1] http://weborganics.co.uk/hFoaF/ [2] http://weborganics.co.uk/articles/show/hypertext-friend-of-a-friend [3] http://weborganics.co.uk/demo/hfoaf.html [4] http://weborganics.co.uk/Profiles/hFoaF.xsl -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] rel=byme
Martin Atkins wrote: Martin McEvoy wrote: On your homepage: a rev=made href=http://somesite.com/;Some Website/a [snip] The last thing I may add to all that is @rev is depreciated in Microformats and HTML5, but if you mark up your pages in XHTML or HTML4 you are still good to go Per a recent discussion on the HTML WG list, the recommendation is to use rel=author instead of rev=made. Do you use HTML5 on your clients websites? I looked at your website and it was XHTML STRICT in which case you can use rev=made without any problems, I also have also been informed (from various sources), that @rev may make a comeback in HTML5 eventually, so really I don't see any harm in using rev=made (for at least the next four years anyway), lastly the reason why @rev was dropped by the HTML WG was because people were not (on the whole) using it correctly, so I am taking the opportunity t inform people HOW to use it Correctly as the concept is not too difficult is it? ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard slowing adoption of microformats?
Hello Samuel Samuel Richter wrote: I read some blog posts this morning on microformats and a common concern (and I feel a legitimate one) is the scraping of hCard's from web sites for future generations of spammers. I believe that fear, if left unaddressed, will kill the microformat effort. Has there been any discussion of this? The point about microformats is they allow you to mark up things that already exist, microformats document current usage patterns. People, organizations, buisnesses publish their e-mail addresses all the time, much more than they publish hcards, so really the problem isn't the humble hcard or microformats its how emails are published, that all aside If you don't want people on the web to be able to scrape your email address don't publish it. Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard slowing adoption of microformats?
Martin McEvoy wrote: Hello Samuel Samuel Richter wrote: I read some blog posts this morning on microformats and a common concern (and I feel a legitimate one) is the scraping of hCard's from web sites for future generations of spammers. I believe that fear, if left unaddressed, will kill the microformat effort. Has there been any discussion of this? The point about microformats is they allow you to mark up things that already exist, microformats document current usage patterns. People, organizations, buisnesses publish their e-mail addresses all the time, much more than they publish hcards, so really the problem isn't the humble hcard or microformats its how emails are published, that all aside If you don't want people on the web to be able to scrape your email address don't publish it. There was a discussion about hCard and Spam here: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-July/000382.html that you may find informative. -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] rel=byme
Hello James James Tindall wrote: I use the xfn rel=me to link from my personal site to sites that I maintain and that represent me in some way but is there a microformat I should use to link to a site I have built for a client? No microformat as such, but you can sprinkle them with a bit of POSH On your homepage: a rev=made href=http://somesite.com/;Some Website/a would say: http://atomless.com/ made http://somesite.com/ On other sites (not your own): a rel=made href=http://atomless.com/;Atomless/a would say the SAME thing as rev: http://atomless.com/ made http://somesite.com/ The last thing I may add to all that is @rev is depreciated in Microformats and HTML5, but if you mark up your pages in XHTML or HTML4 you are still good to go Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Lets talk about rev?
Michael MD wrote: I would like to ask please can we (the community) start talking about rev microformats again please, I know that rev is grandfathered in new Microformats because most of the time the average author gets it wrong ... html5 doesn't have the rev attribute ... I didnt know that fool me for not checking, that's quite sad really Thanks ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Lets talk about rev?
Tantek Celik wrote: Martin: they know how rev and rel works.. There has been no evidence shown to demonstrate this. ? On the contrary, the overwhelming evidence (anecdotal and quantitative by the Google/Hixie markup study) has demonstrated the opposite: they don't know how rev works. Yes I have seen the evidence... :-( If you want to argue for use of rev in general and/or present evidence for it, I suggest doing so at a lower level, that is in the HTML5 community (since it is an HTML attribute you are asking for general use of), either on the whatwg list or the w3c public-html list. Thank you I will, I will drop the whatwg later on today.. Tantek -Original Message- From: Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:06:54 To: Microformats Discussmicroformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] Lets talk about rev? Hello I was going to post this to uf new but the topic is not new. I would like to ask please can we (the community) start talking about rev microformats again please, I know that rev is grandfathered in new Microformats because most of the time the average author gets it wrong (according to google anyway), but really microformats developers are becoming a breed of forward thinking savvy developers, that are not just interested in Microformats Many are interested in expressing semantics in wild and wonderful ways, they know how rev and rel works.. and I am over dramatizing sorry to the point You will all no doubt seen many blogs with links in the sidebar to places or projects, applications, websites, music...etc that they have been involved with? Say I made an application and I put a link to it somewhere on my homepage as a way of saying this Is a great app that I made go check it out, how do I build that link, I would like to add something explicit like this a rev=made href=http://transformr.co.uk/;TranFormr/a would mean.. http://weborganics.co.uk/ made http://transformr.co.uk/ another good example of where a rev link would be useful Is when you post an article on your own blog as a response or reply to another post on someone else's blog, rev would be ideal in this case because you could mark up your post like this... real world example found here: http://nfegen.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/micrordformats/ pI read an interesting post recently, a href=http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html; title=Link to Mark Birbeck blog post‘So how about using RDFa in Microformats?’/a/p by adding rev-reply to the above link... a rev=reply href=http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html; title=Link to Mark Birbeck blog post‘So how about using RDFa in Microformats?’/a the author would be saying... http://nfegen.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/micrordformats/ is a reply to http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html Nice I think, kind of like a pingback? there are probably a lot more examples I could make but I think I have done enough to make my point. Thanks -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Wiki 2.0 is alive!
Hello Ben, Ben Ward wrote: Hi everyone, As promised, the wiki had some downtime this evening as I ran a fairly large upgrade of MediaWiki and the design of the microformats wiki. It's been quite a long time coming, and a lot of work, but I hope people appreciate the improvement. I do Its Great! a huge improvement... The new features of the wiki are documented on the wiki itself[1], along with an issues page[2]. You can also get a drive-by idea of what kind of improvements I've made by visiting the frontpage[3], the hCard page[4] and the hAtom page[5]. Feedback is welcome as always, either here, on the aforementioned issues page or on the associated blog entry[6]. 1. http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-2 2. http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-2-issues 3. http://microformats.org/wiki/ 4. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard 5. http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom 6. http://microformats.org/blog/2008/11/17/wiki/ Thanks for your patience with the upgrade. Thank you :-) Ben ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Lets talk about rev?
Hello I was going to post this to uf new but the topic is not new. I would like to ask please can we (the community) start talking about rev microformats again please, I know that rev is grandfathered in new Microformats because most of the time the average author gets it wrong (according to google anyway), but really microformats developers are becoming a breed of forward thinking savvy developers, that are not just interested in Microformats Many are interested in expressing semantics in wild and wonderful ways, they know how rev and rel works.. and I am over dramatizing sorry to the point You will all no doubt seen many blogs with links in the sidebar to places or projects, applications, websites, music...etc that they have been involved with? Say I made an application and I put a link to it somewhere on my homepage as a way of saying this Is a great app that I made go check it out, how do I build that link, I would like to add something explicit like this a rev=made href=http://transformr.co.uk/;TranFormr/a would mean.. http://weborganics.co.uk/ made http://transformr.co.uk/ another good example of where a rev link would be useful Is when you post an article on your own blog as a response or reply to another post on someone else's blog, rev would be ideal in this case because you could mark up your post like this... real world example found here: http://nfegen.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/micrordformats/ pI read an interesting post recently, a href=http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html; title=Link to Mark Birbeck blog post‘So how about using RDFa in Microformats?’/a/p by adding rev-reply to the above link... a rev=reply href=http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html; title=Link to Mark Birbeck blog post‘So how about using RDFa in Microformats?’/a the author would be saying... http://nfegen.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/micrordformats/ is a reply to http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html Nice I think, kind of like a pingback? there are probably a lot more examples I could make but I think I have done enough to make my point. Thanks -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Hello Toby Toby A Inkster wrote: Martin McEvoy wrote: [...edit..] this is a valid solution. It is certainly valid in an SGML sense. And it does conform to the HTML spec *if* you set the Content-Style-Type header. However, if you do so, then any use of CSS in style attributes becomes non-conformant. Sorry my example was a bad one I over simplified it... the question I am posing is should microformats use their own style-sheet language, vendor specific for microformats in order to tackle the abbr design pattern issue, vendor specific extensions should use this pattern, '-' + vendor identifier + '-' + meaningful name http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords which leads me to believe that publishers can do something like this... span class=bday style=-uf-bday:1968-01-04;4th Jan, 1968/span CSS parsers will just ignore the above markup as vendor specific, of course It will not validate (because its not CSS), but I believe that this is a lesser evil than stuffing the values into @title, a machine wont choke on the data it will just ignore it, where as at the moment people do choke on the data because it makes little sense to them, its in the wrong place. The ability to use CSS in style attributes being very handy, I agree.. I don't think this is a very good solution. I dont think the current abbr-design-pattern is a very good solution either but what choices are there, I just want to fix it and not give anyone an excuse not to publish microformats. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Hello Benjamin Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: Martin McEvoy wrote: I hadn't thought of that something like this maybe... span class=bday style=content:'1968-01-04';4th Jan, 1968/span It doesn't produce any errors with the validator, but is it still a hack Worse still, it would conflict with how the CSS3 Generated and Replaced Content Module Working Draft proposes browsers apply content to elements (namely, by replacing their actual content in the rendering): does this apply to in-line elements? I would guess it does, I tested the example in a CSS3 validator with again no errors, I don't know if this will cause any problems with browsers either as most seem to default to CSS2? Best wishes Martin McEvoy http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-css3-content-20030514/#inserting3 -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: Toby A Inkster wrote: Opera implemented support for CSS's content property on real elements (as against pseudo-elements) a very long time ago (Opera 5 or 6 IIRC) but dropped it later on. Actually, content appears to be working with Opera 9.52 Mac and span class=bday style=content:'1968-01-04';4th Jan, 1968/span right now. So I guess we can scrap the if. The solution wouldn't work as desired even with today's browsers. Oh! this is true, tested on IE8, FF3 Chrome nothing changed Tested on Opera9.5 content: does work.. OK thanks all for letting me bang my head against a wall again ;-) I give up! Best Wishes Martin McEvoy -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Martin McEvoy wrote: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: Toby A Inkster wrote: Opera implemented support for CSS's content property on real elements (as against pseudo-elements) a very long time ago (Opera 5 or 6 IIRC) but dropped it later on. Actually, content appears to be working with Opera 9.52 Mac and span class=bday style=content:'1968-01-04';4th Jan, 1968/span right now. So I guess we can scrap the if. The solution wouldn't work as desired even with today's browsers. Oh! this is true, tested on IE8, FF3 Chrome nothing changed Tested on Opera9.5 content: does work.. OK thanks all for letting me bang my head against a wall again ;-) I give up! One question what is actually wrong with using an extension eg: span class=bday style=-uf-content:'1968-01-04';4th Jan, 1968/span apart from the CSS validation issues, which when you compare it with the current abbr and @title accessibility issues doesn't seem so bad to me? Thanks Martin McEvoy Best Wishes Martin McEvoy -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: Martin McEvoy wrote: One question what is actually wrong with using an extension eg: span class=bday style=-uf-content:'1968-01-04';4th Jan, 1968/span apart from the CSS validation issues, which when you compare it with the current abbr and @title accessibility issues doesn't seem so bad to me? The only direct accessibility issue I can think of is that if you had a tool that stripped out styling information before presentation to a user who needed to apply their own formatting, the data would be stripped along with the presentational suggestions. agreed There are a couple more indirect considerations: 1. Encouraging non-conforming code could produce more mistakes; without a quality control process, mistakes are less likely to be noticed when they only affect users with certain disabilities. yes this too 2. It would constitute a barrier of adoption to publishers aiming to produce webpages that conform to accessibility guidelines that require conforming or even just valid CSS and reduce the benefits of such microformats reaching users with disabilities via sites designed to be usable for them. For example, a page using this syntax probably could not pass WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 3.2 (Create documents that validate to published formal grammars.) and therefore could not pass at the Priority 2 level. Nicely said thank you very informative absolutely correct also. These issues are by no means as significant as the accessibility problems with abbr and title. the lesser of the two evils so to speak.. :-) But in terms of what is wrong with it more generally, this solution is every bit as non-conforming (though not quite as risky) as an HTML custom attribute, with the additional ugliness of putting required data into a layer intended for optional presentational suggestions. even if they are just presentational suggestions for a parser? because this is practically what the abbr pattern does using @title? where would I put that data then? if I were copying popular usage patterns that data would be in the head in a meta tag referenced in some meaningful way (how I don't know), but instead it seems (to me) that I have to take that data and place it in the content hidden in @title a cool trick! I guess that's why microformats are referred to quite often now as hacky. This is just my though so don't jump up and down, I am known to think a little out of the box, microformats can overcome their issues if they just accept one thing machine data belongs in the head of a document, not in the content were it currently is. Given that HTML custom attributes are a non-starter for microformats because they build on existing standards, I can't see how this proposal is going to gain any traction. It wasn't really a proposal of any kind I am just cycling through the many options. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Hello all Something caught my eye when I was investigating resolutions for the abbr-design-pattern ...Any style sheet language may be used with HTML. A simple style sheet language may suffice for the needs of most users, but other languages may be more suited to highly specialized needs...[1] [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/styles.html#h-14.2 If any style sheet language can be used, why don't microformats create their own style language eg: span class=bday style=bday.1968-01-044th Jan, 1968/span or something similar, parsers can just as easily determine values from @style as they can any other property. Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Hello Tantek, Toby Tantek Celik wrote: I agree with Toby's assessment. In addition to violating the semantic (presentation vs data) of the style attribute, web designers still very often use the style attribute for spot styling which implies/requires that the default styling language be CSS. No Tantek and Toby you are misguided in your interpretation please cite your sources ... This specification doesn't tie HTML to any particular style sheet language. This allows for a range of such languages to be used, for instance simple ones for the majority of users and much more complex ones for the minority of users with highly specialized needs. The examples included below all use the CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) language [CSS1], but other style sheet languages would be possible.[1] [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/styles.html#h-14.1 Toby your answer is very well worded and would be a good start for a rejected-syntaxes page. http://microformats.org/wiki/rejected-syntaxes No Toby don't this is a valid solution. Best wishes Martin McEvoy Thanks, Tantek -Original Message- From: Toby A Inkster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:27:02 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style If any style sheet language can be used, why don't microformats create their own style language eg: span class=bday style=bday.1968-01-044th Jan, 1968/span By definition, the contents of the style attribute must be in the default style sheet language. The default style sheet language is by definition CSS unless a Content-Style-Type header (either HTTP header or meta http-equiv) is present. There can only be one default style sheet language per document, thus any document which wants to use a non-CSS style sheet language in the style attribute cannot use CSS in the style attribute. (That is, you can't use CSS in some style attributes and non-CSS on others.) ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Hello Tantek, Toby Tantek Celik wrote: I agree with Toby's assessment. In addition to violating the semantic (presentation vs data) of the style attribute, web designers still very often use the style attribute for spot styling which implies/requires that the default styling language be CSS. No Tantek and Toby you are misguided in your interpretation please cite your sources ... This specification doesn't tie HTML to any particular style sheet language. This allows for a range of such languages to be used, for instance simple ones for the majority of users and much more complex ones for the minority of users with highly specialized needs. The examples included below all use the CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) language [CSS1], but other style sheet languages would be possible.[1] [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/styles.html#h-14.1 Toby your answer is very well worded and would be a good start for a rejected-syntaxes page. http://microformats.org/wiki/rejected-syntaxes No Toby don't this is a valid solution. Best wishes Martin McEvoy Thanks, Tantek -Original Message- From: Toby A Inkster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:27:02 To: microformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style If any style sheet language can be used, why don't microformats create their own style language eg: span class=bday style=bday.1968-01-044th Jan, 1968/span By definition, the contents of the style attribute must be in the default style sheet language. The default style sheet language is by definition CSS unless a Content-Style-Type header (either HTTP header or meta http-equiv) is present. There can only be one default style sheet language per document, thus any document which wants to use a non-CSS style sheet language in the style attribute cannot use CSS in the style attribute. (That is, you can't use CSS in some style attributes and non-CSS on others.) ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations using Style
Hello Scott Scott Reynen wrote: On [Sep 27], at [ Sep 27] 4:27 , Toby A Inkster wrote: If any style sheet language can be used, why don't microformats create their own style language eg: span class=bday style=bday.1968-01-044th Jan, 1968/span By definition, the contents of the style attribute must be in the default style sheet language. The default style sheet language is by definition CSS unless a Content-Style-Type header (either HTTP header or meta http-equiv) is present. There can only be one default style sheet language per document, thus any document which wants to use a non-CSS style sheet language in the style attribute cannot use CSS in the style attribute. (That is, you can't use CSS in some style attributes and non-CSS on others.) That's certainly a reason not to make this a recommendation for everyone, but as we already have two alternative methods (machine data as human data and abbr-design-pattern), I'm not convinced we should discount this idea altogether. Conflict with CSS is only an issue with inline CSS, which is widely regarded as a poor practice anyway, especially among publishers paying enough attention to have concerns about the abbr-design-pattern. And it may not even be an issue there, as CSS says user agents must ignore declarations with invalid values. [1] Thank you Scott you are absolutely correct Best Wishes Martin McEvoy I'm afraid we may be dismissing this too hastily. My initial reaction to this idea was to view it as semantic abuse of the style attribute, but after thinking about it more, I now think it makes a lot of sense that 1968-01-04 should be treated as styling instructions for 4th Jan, 1968. We already have different kinds of styling instructions in CSS (i.e. visual, aural, and physical). I'd argue that this is a simply another type of instruction, context-dependent, just as much explaining how the content should be presented, e.g. it should be presented in whatever way ISO 8601 dates are presented in a given context. There may be good reasons this won't work, but I don't think the fact that no one has previously used @style for anything other than CSS is one of them. After all, the same was widely true of @class before we started promoting the alternative uses allowed under the HTML spec. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#conformance Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations
Hello Philip Philip Tellis wrote: 2008/9/24 Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: people do not have any problems of putting machine data in the head of a document, for example service discovery links and meta details such as keywords and descriptions. its worth a little thought a think? From a performance point of view, dumping too much user invisible data into the HEAD section of the document is going to eat up bytes that are of no use to most users. Agreed... Personally, I'd leave the HEAD for data that the browser needs up front in order to correctly render the page (eg: CSS, favicon, content-type, link-rel), Machine Data also like service discovery links, alternate formats such as RDF Atom and RSS, a vast amount of websites also use meta tags for verification such as microid an Google Analytics also for Descriptions and keywords, how many websites in the web2.0 world have you seen using external Javascript? this has to be loaded into the browser too, so where performance is concerned pushing a few extra bits of data up into the head is really a non-issue to most. Pushing data up into the head (for machines) would seem like the right place to put ISO durations and timestamps to separate content from data. and push everything else lower down to when it's actually needed. However, keep in mind that one size doesn't fit all. Going too far on the performance scale can sometimes mean a loss of validity, accessibility, and semantic value, so it's up to individual site owners to make the call. We should provide a couple of options that touch different points on this scale. Agreed Thank you Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations
Martin McEvoy wrote: Machine Data also like service discovery links, alternate formats such as RDF Atom and RSS, a vast amount of websites also use meta tags for verification such as microid an Google Analytics also for Descriptions and keywords, how many websites in the web2.0 world have you seen using external Javascript? this has to be loaded into the browser too, so where performance is concerned pushing a few extra bits of data up into the head is really a non-issue to most. Pushing data up into the head (for machines) would seem like the right place to put ISO durations and timestamps to separate content from data. A side note to this People also publish ISO date-times in the HEAD of their documents a little more than you may at first think, how many times has anyone seen markup like this: meta name=date content=2008-09-25T10:40:37+01:00/ see also for an examples: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.4.4.3 http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=meta+name%3D%22date%22 Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations
Ciaran McNulty wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:56 PM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: span class=duration id=this5.33/span and in the head of your document you could have something like this: link rel=include href=#this title=PT5M33S/ has any one any thoughts on this approach. I have reservations about it, to be honest. If we're going to have hidden data (and frankly from what I can tell from discussions so far about this, we're heading that way) it's better that its 'near' the visible version in the HTML rather than being hidden in the HEAD. Thanks Ciaran, I agree it should be near the html version, the only question is how is that achieved now? I have seen plenty of Ideas mooted around the wiki, its just that no-one can agree a method, its faily important I would say that this issue be resolved in some way, Microformats cant wait around till 2022 for html5, I think it should be addressed here and now, and most people do not have any problems of putting machine data in the head of a document, for example service discovery links and meta details such as keywords and descriptions. its worth a little thought a think? Best Wishes Martin McEvoy -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] ISO Dates and Durations
Hello all I have been playing (again) with a solution to data being expressed in abbr titles. A workaround I have found is to use a kind of reverse include with the machine-data being pushed into the head of your document example: span class=duration id=this5.33/span and in the head of your document you could have something like this: link rel=include href=#this title=PT5M33S/ has any one any thoughts on this approach. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Today, Tomorrow, and Someday Problems
Sarven Capadisli wrote: On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why would you want to use RDFa? For the same reason you want to use microformats. Because you care about machines understanding what is on your page, not just humans. Is it not the other way around in the microformats community? I don't think so. Both are essentially saying humans indeed do come first but we also want to help the machines understand a bit of what humans do. I think neither of them cancel out the need for the other. OK you are right ...erm no you are wrong!...oh! I would write the same statement (with my microformats hat on): ... Because you care about Humans understanding what is on your page, not just machines. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy -Sarven ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ignoring minimal hCards
Hello Karsten Karsten Januszewski wrote: Hello - I'm finding lots of great sites out there that are using Microformats, hCards and hCalendars, in particular, to maximum effect where there is real value in the data they mark up. (Eventful.com and upcoming.yahoo.com come to mind.) However, I'm seeing other sites where a minimal amount of information is provided (fn, photo, url to page relative to the site). This data may be of interest from a search index perspective. However, for an application consuming Microformats, it is of less interest. Consider Twitter: my Twitter profile page has 120 hCards on it (representing everyone who is following me on Twitter), but none of those hCards contain any real interesting data. I have noticed on many social networking sites such as Twitter, Magnolia, LastFM... etc use XFN http://gmpg.org/xfn/ to define which hcard's belong to who for example Twitter, Magnolia and LastFM use @rel=me to idenifiy the Users profile hcard and @rel=contact to mark up the hcards of a users er.. contacts., this pattern is found on a few blogs and homepages too. There is and Demo on how all this information can be put together, you may find it useful in your quest take a look at http://weborganics.co.uk/hFoaF/ there is also a wiki page with lots more examples of hcard's supporting user profiles here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists Best wishes Martin McEvoy I understand this is a side effect of the fact that only FN is required in hCard. What are people's thoughts on sites that minimally adopt Microformats? Right now, I'm working on both a parser and an application. What if my application were to ignore Microformats that may be to spec but weren't interesting enough for my application's purpose? Yes, a subjective decision, but I'm wondering what the community would think of such a decision. Thanks, Karsten ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [FYI] Ubiquity Command
André Luís wrote: Whoa.. very handy Martin. Thank you very much. I think I would have prefered uf-search or uf-wiki since it's not only quicker to type but also more memorable, at least for us folks. :) Thanks André, you are right changed to uf-search its much more memorable, if you have the command set to auto update just restart your browser and all should be well. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy -- André Luís On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:18 AM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All There is now a Ubiquity[1] Command to search the microformats wiki with your words the command is: micro-search (your words) you can subscribe to it at http://weborganics.co.uk/ [https://wiki.mozilla.org/Labs/Ubiquity] Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [FYI] Ubiquity Command
Tantek Celik wrote: Martin, good work. I encourage you to start a ubiquity page on our wiki and link to your additional commands etc. http://microformats.org/wiki/ubiquity Done! see: http://microformats.org/wiki/ubiquity Best Wishes Martin McEvoy Thanks, Tantek -Original Message- From: Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:04:41 To: Microformats Discussmicroformats-discuss@microformats.org Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] [FYI] Ubiquity Command André Luís wrote: Whoa.. very handy Martin. Thank you very much. I think I would have prefered uf-search or uf-wiki since it's not only quicker to type but also more memorable, at least for us folks. :) Thanks André, you are right changed to uf-search its much more memorable, if you have the command set to auto update just restart your browser and all should be well. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy -- André Luís On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:18 AM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All There is now a Ubiquity[1] Command to search the microformats wiki with your words the command is: micro-search (your words) you can subscribe to it at http://weborganics.co.uk/ [https://wiki.mozilla.org/Labs/Ubiquity] Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Today, Tomorrow, and Someday Problems
Manu Sporny wrote: Interesting blog post by Shane McCarron of XHTML2 fame. He has been involved in the standards community since 1985. His name is on just about every major HTML standard to come out of the W3C - if you use HTML 4.01, XHTML1.0, XHTML 1.1, or will use XHTML2 (to name a few), you're using specs that he had a direct hand in creating or maintaining. It's interesting to see his take on how the W3C and the Microformats community fits into the ecosystem of solving the problems of today, tomorrow and someday. The post discusses Microformats and RDFa: http://halindrome.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-we-do-what-we-do.html Thanks Manu for an interesting post, I have made some comments ;-) I am a bit worried about Shane's other post, http://halindrome.blogspot.com/2008/09/rdfa-is-proposed-recommendation.html Unlike microformats, the idiom for annotating your content does not conflict with the normal semantics of (X)HTML (e.g., the class attribute, the title attribute, and abbr). Sound's like a declaration of war from a community who wants to bring Microformats to the fold. Why would you want to use RDFa? For the same reason you want to use microformats. Because you care about machines understanding what is on your page, not just humans. Is it not the other way around in the microformats community? Best Wishes Martin McEvoy -- manu ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Ubiquity
Hello Matthias, I nearly missed your email there so sorry for the late reply ;-) Gutjahr wrote: Hey Martin, I tried it out, seems to work pretty well. Even recognizes the hAudio in my blog (although transformr adds an ugly itunes element .. why?). Yes the iTunes extensions are because the RSS2 podcast extraction is mainly an iTunes podcast, If you have any better ideas on how to do this, you are welcome to comment. Take a look at http://weborganics.co.uk/haudio-rss/ for a few Ideas on how to get a better transformation from your source. IMHO ubiquity is a cool tool, Very Cool.. at least for us geeks ;O), and you've come up with some good commands pretty quickly. Thank You. Cheers - Matthias Best wishes Martin McEvoy 2008/8/27 Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey All Have you seen this http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/ Very Cool If you have tryed it out surf your way to http://transformr.co.uk/ for some Microformat commands they are, get-atom = get an atom feed from hatom get-vcard = from hcard get-events = get hCalendar Events get-podcast = Get a RSS2 podcast from hAudio get-rdfa = Gets RDF from RDFa documents Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] URL and Relative paths
Hello Karsten Welcome! Karsten Januszewski wrote: Hi - I'm a developer at Microsoft working on a project that involves parsing and consuming Microformats. I've noticed quite a few implementations of hCards out in the wild that use the url property with a relative path instead of an absolute path. Is this considered bad form? Or is this to spec? I didn't see anything on the wiki about this... I think relative urls on the whole are bad form because many authors forget to set the base url for their relative paths... head base href=http://someurl.com/; / [] /head I would say however that relative urls are useful in determining a sites internal links. I don't think the community on a whole has an opinion on that, but you may find a few individuals that do. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy Thanks, Karsten Januszewski ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hcard: additional additional names
Michael Smethurst wrote: On 21/8/08 18:41, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Smethurst wrote: Hi Martin On 14/8/08 15:48, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *family-name-preposition* is probably more accurate to what you are trying to describe von in dutch simply means of or from Oh I quoted wrong there I meant to say van in Dutch simply means of or from my bad! ;-) von still means of or from but is also used to indicate German/Austrian nobility similar to de in French. , O as in O'Donnell, in Irish means descendant of or grandson of (in Gaelic Ua), Mc and Mac are again Irish meaning son of, and Fitz as in FitzGerald is an Irish hash of the french fils de which also means son of. What I am trying to say is any of these prefixes simply mean of and shouldn't really be considered part of their family name although they mostly are, think Van Gough would you know who I meant if I just said Gough? Family-name-preposition it is. You can see beethoven here: http://bbc-hackday.dyndns.org:1895/people/16 Ahh Shame! the link doesn't work for me My bad. Was on internal port. Try http://bbc-hackday.dyndns.org:2840/people/16 Thank you Michael looks Great the vcard extracts nicely too try: http://transformr.co.uk/hcard/http://bbc-hackday.dyndns.org:2840/people/16 Best Wishes Martin McEvoy I will try it later Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Potential for Microformats.org to work with W3C and RDFa Task Force
Hello Manu, all Manu I think you need to explain that RDFa is a way of expressing semantics in html, not just a way of expressing RDF annotations in html Manu Sporny wrote: Ben Ward wrote: It will take a couple of weeks to give examples of how this will all work, but I wanted to get feedback from this community before proceeding. We have a fantastic opportunity in front of us now - who in this community thinks that we should work with the W3C on this endeavor? I'm not sure I completely see the benefit in this, and seeing your examples would be very helpful in getting a better idea of what you're proposing. I'll get a set of examples written up soon, then. From your bullet points, it seems to suggest taking microformat vocabularies and expressing them in RDFa, rather than HTML? It seems redundant for publishers. No, the markup would still happen in HTML, using Microformat properties, but instead of using @class, we MAY (not MUST) use @typeof, @property, and @content (in the case of machine-readable data) to express Microformats. Its interesting to point out that most people who publish Microformats, are not really expressing any semantics at all, @class doesn't expresses any semantics without meta data profiles and most publishers do not use them, yes some search engines can pick up hcards and calendar events but really that's about it. any other Microformats are Ignored mostly. The key being that these attributes are specifically designed to contain semantic data. Here's a brief example showing how we could get rid of the ABBR design problem by re-using RDFa's @content attribute. Note that this would work in HTML 4.01, XHTML1.1 and XHTML2: div typeof=haudio span property=titleStart Wearing Purple/span by span property=contributorGogol Bordello/span span property=published content=20020514May 14th, 2002/span /div That is a good example of how microformats could be used in RDFa everything (to me) seems to be in the right place. @typeof can include any root Microformat Class names @property is any Microformat Property name @rel is any microformat rel value Microformats Map pretty well in this way However, I do have a somewhat related issue that you might consider part of this effort. Some discussions I've had lately revealed usefulness in being able to _map_ microformats into RDF, for the purpose of combining microformats with other RDF vocabularies in a back-end somewhere (so, conversion for processing, rather than publishing. Publishing remains in HTML where it is most effective). Publishing would stay in HTML, where it is most effective. Nobody is suggesting that it move elsewhere - RDFa follows the same principles as Microformats in this case. As for the mapping between uF/RDF Vocabularies, I started a page to do just that back in October 2007: http://wiki.digitalbazaar.com/en/Mapping-ufs-to-rdfa Want me to move it to Microformats.org? I think you should Manu, so the rest of the community can read your most excellent work :-) I'm told that RDF ‘versions’ of vcard and icalendar are out of date compared to the microformats. I don't think they are, but could be mistaken... The last update to VCARD was on 22 February 2001: http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf and the vocabulary: http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0# The last update to iCalendar was on 29 September 2005 http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfcal/ and the vocabulary: http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal# As such, it strikes me that rather than maintaining duplicate specifications, it would instead make sense to develop a set of standard transformations so that any microformat can be transformed from HTML to RDF, without requiring duplicate effort to maintain another spec. This I'm sure would relate closely to GRDDL, since that already deals with transformation. Yes, agreed, that would be useful. Agreed. Note, I'm talking about mapping rules, not separate specs. For example, we have the ‘jCard’ page on the wiki, which I still feel should be more generic ‘JSON Mapping Rules’ page that can cover parsing from any format, not just hcard. We're also working on that in our company, but internally for now. There is the issue of a generic object representation format for semantic data objects. We have a generalized RDF-based representation for RDFa and Microformats now... but didn't think this community would be interested in such a solution. Should a wiki-page be started on various JSON Mapping Rules between uF/RDFa to JSON? -- manu Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Ubiquity
Hey All Have you seen this http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/ Very Cool If you have tryed it out surf your way to http://transformr.co.uk/ for some Microformat commands they are, get-atom = get an atom feed from hatom get-vcard = from hcard get-events = get hCalendar Events get-podcast = Get a RSS2 podcast from hAudio get-rdfa = Gets RDF from RDFa documents Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hcard: born and died and flourished
Hello Jim Jim O'Donnell wrote: Hi Michael, On 21 Aug 2008, at 13:28, Michael Smethurst wrote: Where either date is circa I've included ca. in the span with bday, dday, flourished-start or flourished-end: span class=bdayca. 1575/span-span class=ddayca. 1614/span You could represent fuzzy dates as two timestamps seperated by a slash, as per http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/metadata/pns/pndsdcap/#DctermsTemporalPndstermsISO8601Per eg. ca. 1575 could be written as 1570-01-01/1580-12-31 or you might be able to just get away wth 1570/1580. I'm not quite sure how you'd represent that in HTML, but it is a standard for representing periods of time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Time_intervals says that as well as using slash / and solidus (like a slash but steeper don't think its on a standard key on a keyboard) you can also use double dashes -- so possible mark-up could be: span class=interval abbr class=bday title=1575-01-011575/abbr--abbr class=dday title=1614-12-311614/abbr /span No there is no @class=interval just a bit of posh Best Wishes Martin McEvoy Oh, and I suppose with dates that far back there'll be calendar issues with Julian vs. Gregorian and what day does the year begin if you get into days and months and comparing dates from different parts of Europe. I have to admit I generally ignore those since the uncertainty in dates for works of art and the like is usually much bigger than any difference introduced by different calendars. Jim Jim O'Donnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://eatyourgreens.org.uk http://flickr.com/photos/eatyourgreens ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Problems with rel-license?
Hello All I am having problems with the actual definition of license which seems to ambiguous as it means TWO things and I am not sure which applies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/License The verb *license* or *grant license* means to give permission. The noun *licence* (or license in American Spelling) is the document demonstrating that permission. Microformat class names are mostly (if not all) Nouns I am English I spell it licence as in Driving licence, or TV licence so to mark up a link to the document demonstrating that permission I would write, a rel=licence href=http://somewhere.com/licence;Read My Licence/a Presuming there is nothing amiss it is wrong however (I've done this :-[ ) this is the correct mark up: a rel=license href=http://somewhere.com/licence;Read My Licence/a This (to me) seems semantically wrong , should I be bothered about this? Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Problems with rel-license?
Ciaran McNulty wrote: On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a rel=license href=http://somewhere.com/licence;Read My Licence/a This (to me) seems semantically wrong , should I be bothered about this? I think we Brits should just accept that the uF in question is specified in en_us and not worry too much about it. The idea of internationalising uF fields is too horrific to contemplate, after all! See also text-align: center; I'm sure a few Brits have been dumbfounded by that one when validating their css! ;-) Anyway its not internationalization I have a problem with its the definition not the two words I have problems with. 1, License is an action by the licensor giving permission to a licensee either verbally or some other form of communication typically in writing. 2 Licence is the actual document itself demonstrating those permissions such as a Drivers Licence. I do think in order for the Licensing http://microformats.org/wiki/license discussion to progress fully it is very important to distinguish the difference between the two Thanks Martin McEvoy -Ciaran McNulty ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Problems with rel-license?
Hello Jeremy Jeremy Keith wrote: Martin wrote: Anyway its not internationalization I have a problem with its the definition not the two words I have problems with. They are one and the same issue. The difference between license and licence is only made in British English. you mean in every English speaking country accept America In American English, the word license covers both the verb and the noun. Which is a shame really because it kind of muddies the definition of license. Ah well if this isn't an issue so be it :-) Thanks Martin HTH, Jeremy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hcard: additional additional names
Michael Smethurst wrote: Hi Martin On 14/8/08 15:48, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *family-name-preposition* is probably more accurate to what you are trying to describe von in dutch simply means of or from Oh I quoted wrong there I meant to say van in Dutch simply means of or from my bad! ;-) von still means of or from but is also used to indicate German/Austrian nobility similar to de in French. , O as in O'Donnell, in Irish means descendant of or grandson of (in Gaelic Ua), Mc and Mac are again Irish meaning son of, and Fitz as in FitzGerald is an Irish hash of the french fils de which also means son of. What I am trying to say is any of these prefixes simply mean of and shouldn't really be considered part of their family name although they mostly are, think Van Gough would you know who I meant if I just said Gough? Family-name-preposition it is. You can see beethoven here: http://bbc-hackday.dyndns.org:1895/people/16 Ahh Shame! the link doesn't work for me I will try it later Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Cognition 0.1-alpha12 out today!
Hello Toby Toby A Inkster wrote: Cognition 0.1-alpha12 is out now (maybe I'll move into betas one of these days). A full change log is available at the Cognition website http://buzzword.org.uk/cognition/ where you can download the latest version or try it online. [...] * M3U output. This is great I tried it on http://weborganics.co.uk/haudio-rss/ worked perfectly thanks (you saved me a job). Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] rel-ecolabel
Hello Tantek Tantek Çelik wrote: On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page#Drafts rel-ecolabel http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-ecolabel - for indicating ecolabelled products/services/companies I didnt know there was such a thing! when did this get to Draft? I dont remember any discussion about ecolabels? can someone point me to the discussion please I have been a bit slow on this one. I didn't see any discussion either, and the proposer who added it to the drafts section clearly failed to read the introduction or how-to-play or process or anything else above where they added it on the Main_Page. Phew! I thought I had fallen asleep there and missed something :) Moved to a new section in exploratory discussions (along with a few others, more to follow I'm sure). http://microformats.org/wiki/exploratory-discussions#failed_to_follow_process Good Tantek Best Wishes Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hcard: additional additional names
Hello Lisa Lisa Goodlin wrote: On 8/14/08 10:48 AM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *family-name-preposition* is probably more accurate to what you are trying to describe von in dutch simply means of or from, O as in O'Donnell, in Irish means descendant of or grandson of (in Gaelic Ua), Mc and Mac are again Irish meaning son of, and Fitz as in FitzGerald is an Irish hash of the french fils de which also means son of. What I am trying to say is any of these prefixes simply mean of and shouldn't really be considered part of their family name although they mostly are, think Van Gough would you know who I meant if I just said Gough? And that's why art historians refer to Leonardo and turn away in disgust when people say da Vinci. I have never considered that, a good point on differences in peoples names in popular culture, I quite like being on first name terms with artists, makes me feel like I am their buddy or something :-) Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hcard: additional additional names
Hello Michael Michael Smethurst wrote: On 14/8/08 12:32, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/8/14, Michael Smethurst [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On listings pages and: h1 class=vcard a href=http://localhost:3005/people/16; class=n fn url span class=given-nameLudwig/span span class=family-name-prefixvan/span span class=family-nameBeethoven/span /a /h1 On ludwig's page It means that Ludwig loses his van on operator export but I guess he won't complain. --- you could solve this by nesting the spans as well. span class=family-name span class=family-name-prefixvan/span Beethoven /span Cool, I'll do this on the person page and leave him slightly broke on the listings where the nesting isn't possible cos of the separation Beethoven, Ludwig van I've asked around and the label Onomastic prefix has been suggested: http://www.listservicedirect.com/ethnic_religious.html But again it doesn't seem to differentiate between attached and detached prefixes So I'll stick with family-name-prefix for now (it's easier to spell for one) unless anyone has a better idea *family-name-preposition* is probably more accurate to what you are trying to describe von in dutch simply means of or from, O as in O'Donnell, in Irish means descendant of or grandson of (in Gaelic Ua), Mc and Mac are again Irish meaning son of, and Fitz as in FitzGerald is an Irish hash of the french fils de which also means son of. What I am trying to say is any of these prefixes simply mean of and shouldn't really be considered part of their family name although they mostly are, think Van Gough would you know who I meant if I just said Gough? Best wishes Martin McEvoy This way, you are still adding POSH to the 'van' prefix, but it will get exported to Operator together with the family-name. Unless this would be a violation of the semantics of family-name, but i think in this case the nesting would be ok. -brian http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] rel-ecolabel
Hello all http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page#Drafts rel-ecolabel http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-ecolabel - for indicating ecolabelled products/services/companies I didnt know there was such a thing! when did this get to Draft? I dont remember any discussion about ecolabels? can someone point me to the discussion please I have been a bit slow on this one. Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Human and machine readable data format
Hello Ben On Tue, 2008-07-01 at 17:42 +0100, Ben Ward wrote: At the core, in breaking with the semantics of an HTML element, we've broken the behaviour of technologies using the element correctly and intelligently (hence my strong opposition to continuing to stretch ABBR outside of textual abbreviations as commonly described by dictionaries: ‘An abbreviation is a shortened form of a word or phrase.’ — Wikipedia, Apple OSX Dictionary, Dictionary.com) I dont believe that *2008-07-11T00:01+0100* belongs anywhere where a human can read it, the only place I have found where this data sits nicely is either stuffed in the head of a document or in a class. I have been playing around with the various solutions proposed on both this and uf-dev over the past few weeks, none of which turned out too good when it came to parsing (for me). anyway I tried something different by just re-using existing microformats item and value... div class=item updated pDate span class=value 2008-07-11T00:01+0100Friday, July the 11th 2008/span/p /div There are a few more examples of how Item and Value work together in a demo available here: http://weborganics.co.uk/demo/machine-and-human-readable-data-format.html It seems workable to me, but I guess that will be up to the rest of the community ;) Thanks -- Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ContentState http://contentstate.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Human and machine readable data format
On Mon, 2008-06-30 at 07:57 +0100, Glenn Jones wrote: abbr class=dtstart title=Date: 25 January 2008 at 15:30, Time zone +1:00Jan 25 08/abbr My thought for some time now is that the problem should be simplified a little, maybe also the problem could be looked at a little differently by trying to mark up datetime as all one thing which is great for a machine, when really you should be trying to mark it up in a way humans understand, date and time. span class=dtstart On abbr class=date title=2008-06-30June 30th/abbr at abbr class=time title=09:00+01009.00am/abbr /span Also using a prefix such as data:x does NOT really belong in a human readable area such as a title does it? Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Human and machine readable data format
On Mon, 2008-06-30 at 16:16 +0100, Jeremy Keith wrote: span class=dtstart On abbr class=value title=2008-06-30June 30th/abbr at abbr class=value title=09:009.00am/abbr /span Yes Jeremy I like this idea but... its this bit I am having difficulty with [...] On abbr class=value title=2008-06-30June 30th/abbr at abbr class=value title=09:009.00am/abbr [...] semantically on their own the above does not mean much nothing at all really, search engines, parsers, things that index dates and times, would have to peek at the parent to find out what the actual values are for. this is why I preferred the previous example because on their own without a container class... abbr class=date title=2008-06-30June 30th/abbr abbr class=time title=09:009.00am/abbr you can even have (from hcard) abbr class=tz title=+0100+1 GMT/abbr each of the above three properties can be easily parsed and understood by machines and not too heavy on the cognitive load for humans I don't think the above suggestions are anything ground breaking or new just a natural expansion of the current design pattern. Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought
Hello Toby On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:25 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote: I'm about half-way through writing an article on extending hCard with RDFa You might like to read this http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-about-using-rdfa-in-microformats.html and this http://weborganics.co.uk/articles/show/extending-hcard-using-rdfa may be relevant/helpful towards your article. Martin ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Request for help from screen reader users from the BBC
On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 10:26 +0100, Frances Berriman wrote: On 21/05/2008, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you tried something like this: abbr class=dtstart title=2008-05-15T19:30:00+01:00 span title=Seven Thirty19:30/span /abbr Hi Martin, It's not so much about what to try as the BBC using the hCalendar on a new, very large site and not wanting to use a format that is either likely to change (if the abbr pattern is changed/dropped) or causes accessibility issues. They just want to help push through the current discussion with some real data. Hopefully, this issue can be resolved *very soon* - I'd hate to see /programmes have to drop their microformat implementation because of one, relatively small, aspect of one format. Hmm It seems to me that the microformats community seems to find it difficult to resolve the abbr design issue[1], its been over a year now? I cant see why we cant accept the hAccessibility[2] solution and be done with it and just use a span, I believe most screen readers are not set up to read out loud the @title on a span by default. span class=dtstart title=20070312T1700-06 March 12, 2007 at 5 PM, Central Standard Time /span Another resolution I rather liked was to use dfn[3] instead as it is unlikely the @title will ever be read out loud on a dfn tag, dfn is hardly ever used in the real-world but to me is an extremely useful and posh tag, perfect for a microformat. dfn class=dtstart title=20070312T1700-06 March 12, 2007 at 5 PM, Central Standard Time /dfn Oh well hopefully the abbr issue can be resolved amicably this time around as there seems to be a few usable resolutions[4], if not, lets all talk about it again Next Year :) [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/accessibility-issues#abbr-design-pattern [2] http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/ [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/dfn-design-pattern [4] http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology-abbr-results#Valid_HTML4 Thanks Martin Thanks, though! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Request for help from screen reader users from the BBC
Hi Frances On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 14:12 +0100, Frances Berriman wrote: Hi everyone, I realise I mentioned this URL in the last thread I was active on, but I wanted to bring this to the attention to anyone not following that thread. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/microformats_and_accessibility.shtml The BBC is trialling microformats in the new programme support pages and are in need of lots of test data and research in order to a) help us make a more informed decision about the use of abbr design pattern in hCalendar here in the community, and b) for them to decide whether to use hCalendar at all (eek!). Please take a read if you are a screen reader user, or know some one who is. Have you tried something like this: abbr class=dtstart title=2008-05-15T19:30:00+01:00 span title=Seven Thirty19:30/span /abbr There is more on this here: http://alistapart.com/articles/hattrick Best Wishes Martin McEvoy Thanks very much, Frances ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Re: [Ann:] TransFormr.
On Sun, 2008-05-18 at 15:02 +0100, Martin McEvoy wrote: I am Pleased to announce TransFormr. TransFormr is another Microformats Transformer. ... For anyone who may be interested TransFormr is also available to download and run yourself at Google Code http://code.google.com/p/transformr/ either by via svn: svn co http://transformr.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ transformr-read-only or by direct download: (only 85.6 KB) http://transformr.googlecode.com/files/transformr.zip Thanks. Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] [Ann:] TransFormr.
I am Pleased to announce TransFormr. TransFormr is another Microformats Transformer. It works a little different to its predecessors ufExtract, Optimus and Cognition because it is mainly built around X2V and all the XSLT style sheets available at http://hg.microformats.org/x2v and a few others found at http://esw.w3.org/topic/CustomRdfDialects supported formats: hcard http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard hatom http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom hcalendar http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar hreview http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview geo http://microformats.org/wiki/geo haudio http://microformats.org/wiki/haudio as well as one or two other experimental formats. The best way to get going is to use auto detect, example: http://transformr.co.uk/detect/http://tantek.com/ for a full list of urls to extract individual formats please visit http://transformr.co.uk/ Thanks Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [Ann:] TransFormr.
Hello Richard, On Sun, 2008-05-18 at 17:51 +0100, Richard Cyganiak wrote: Martin, this is very cool. A tiny bug report: All RDF seems to be served with Content-Type: text/html, it should be application/rdf+xml. (Many RDF tools rely on this.) Thanks for that, should be fixed now. Best Wishes Martin McEvoy Best, Richard On 18 May 2008, at 15:02, Martin McEvoy wrote: I am Pleased to announce TransFormr. TransFormr is another Microformats Transformer. It works a little different to its predecessors ufExtract, Optimus and Cognition because it is mainly built around X2V and all the XSLT style sheets available at http://hg.microformats.org/x2v and a few others found at http://esw.w3.org/topic/CustomRdfDialects supported formats: hcard http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard hatom http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom hcalendar http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar hreview http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview geo http://microformats.org/wiki/geo haudio http://microformats.org/wiki/haudio as well as one or two other experimental formats. The best way to get going is to use auto detect, example: http://transformr.co.uk/detect/http://tantek.com/ for a full list of urls to extract individual formats please visit http://transformr.co.uk/ Thanks Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [Ann:] TransFormr.
On Sun, 2008-05-18 at 22:18 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote: The best way to get going is to use auto detect, example: http://transformr.co.uk/detect/http://tantek.com/ Auto-detect... now that is a good idea... I'm going to copy you: http://srv.buzzword.org.uk/detect/tantek.com/ Great Toby! Im glad good ideas catch on ;) Martin ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] [ANN:] Hypertext Friend of a Friend (hFoaF)
Hello all, I am Pleased to announce Hypertext Friend of a Friend or hFoaF. hFoaF came to be because I noticed a patten of people trying to consolidate their identity's, express interests, and friends in their user profiles and homepages using hcard[1] and a url with the XFN[2] rel=me, marking up their friends and colleagues with simple anchor text links and other XFN values, and expressing their interests by using either xFolk[3] or hAtom[4]. How common is this pattern, well to be honest not many every user profile at Ma.Gnolia[5] is marked up in this way, and Tantek's homepage[6] is also marked up in this way. others are, Lasfm, twitter, and nsyght Profiles but the markup (for me) is so difficult to tidy and parse that with the exception of nsyght it is difficult extract anything useful :( examples: Using the transformer available at, http://weborganics.co.uk/hFoaf/?id= source: http://www.tantek.com/ output: http://tinyurl.com/3g4dv5 source: http://ma.gnolia.com/people/aarongustafson output: http://tinyurl.com/3eqzya Using GRDDL available at, http://www.w3.org/2007/08/grddl/?docAddr= profile: http://weborganics.co.uk/Profiles/hFoaF.xsl source: http://weborganics.co.uk/ output: http://tinyurl.com/3ucx9z If you are interested in the source code or would like to know a little more please visit http://weborganics.co.uk/hFoaf/ As usual comments constructive criticism welcome. Thanks. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/xfolk [4] http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom [5] http://ma.gnolia.com/ [6] http://www.tantek.com/ Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [ANN:] Hypertext Friend of a Friend (hFoaF)
Hello André On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:10 +0100, André Luís wrote: I just tried on my own blog, without any changes to the current markup: http://xml.mfd-consult.dk/foaf/explorer/?foaf=http%3A%2F% 2Fweborganics.co.uk%2FhFoaF%2F%3Fid%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fandr3.net%2Fblog It worked pretty well!! Glad It did ;) Please can I add you to the example output section on the hFoaF page. Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [ANN:] Hypertext Friend of a Friend (hFoaF)
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:10 +0100, André Luís wrote: I like the idea... basically you're just suggesting a way of putting hcard+xfn+(hatom/xfolk) together in a simple way. Having a specific format to aim for (and to call it) will surely help convergence in implementations. Yes I guess that's the Idea. Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [ANN:] Hypertext Friend of a Friend (hFoaF)
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 20:57 +0100, André Luís wrote: Ok just to clear it up, are you actually suggesting a new format? or are you suggesting a best-practice for publishers to implement these formats in such a way as to enable a more complete conversion to FOAF? Im not sure yet there are more than a few people already publishing this way so at the moment I would say that its just best practice or you could say I am just recognising a design pattern in our own community. A hFoaF format certainly looks desirable FoaF basically is just a machine readable homepage so it would seem natural to want to embed FoaF in html and make it represent an actual homepage too, last time I looked according to ping the semantic web[1] there are around a million FoaF documents out there so yes I think this should maybe be a format what do you think? [1] http://pingthesemanticweb.com/stats/namespaces.php Thanks Martin McEvoy -- André Luís On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:10 +0100, André Luís wrote: I like the idea... basically you're just suggesting a way of putting hcard+xfn+(hatom/xfolk) together in a simple way. Having a specific format to aim for (and to call it) will surely help convergence in implementations. Yes I guess that's the Idea. Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] marking up a rel-enclosure length
On Sun, 2008-05-11 at 11:45 -0400, David Janes wrote: I think some work was done a while back here [1] but it didn't really go anywhere. Obliquely, [2] may also by of interest. Regards, etc... David Thanks David for your pointers, I like the oembed url interesting stuff not exactly what I was thinking but Interesting for a future project. Martin [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/media-metadata-examples [2] http://oembed.com/ On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I have been wandering is there any way to mark up the file length or size of a rel=enclosure[1], If not, Is there a best practice? or has anyone any thoughts on how to do this? [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-enclosure Many thanks in advance Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] marking up a rel-enclosure length
Hello Charles On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 14:21 -0700, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Hello Martin, On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I have been wandering is there any way to mark up the file length or size of a rel=enclosure[1], If not, Is there a best practice? or has anyone any thoughts on how to do this? [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-enclosure Couldn't you just do an HTTP HEAD request on the URL (for the rel-enclosure) to get the size of the file (if you really wanted to know)? Normally this would be ok, but I am trying to do this by just using xhtml, xslt and GRDDL so it would require that class=length (as in the length of the stream in bytes) or something like be marked up explicitly in the source xhtml document. Thanks. Martin ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] marking up a rel-enclosure length
On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 17:41 -0400, Sylvain Carle wrote: Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Hello Martin, On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Martin McEvoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I have been wandering is there any way to mark up the file length or size of a rel=enclosure[1], If not, Is there a best practice? or has anyone any thoughts on how to do this? [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-enclosure Couldn't you just do an HTTP HEAD request on the URL (for the rel-enclosure) to get the size of the file (if you really wanted to know)? Maybe, but what if you wanted to declare it in your markup? I do :) I know the format is a bit ugly, but MediaRSS [1] has interesting prior art for that, with filesize, bitrate (etc) attributes that could be used on an xhtml element (instead of the xml representation done in MediaRSS). 1. http://search.yahoo.com/mrss Yes I looked into Media RSS some time ago, relevant to the discussion on file format's or hFileFormat [1] [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/file-format-examples what I am thinking is maybe something much more simple like span class=size title=37921053.6M/span Hmm.. looks like this discussion needs to be re-raised on Microformats New. Thanks anyway. Martin -- Sylvain Carle ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] marking up a rel-enclosure length
Hello all, I have been wandering is there any way to mark up the file length or size of a rel=enclosure[1], If not, Is there a best practice? or has anyone any thoughts on how to do this? [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-enclosure Many thanks in advance Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Coding mbox_sha1sum in XFN
Hello Julian, Toby On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 11:48 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote: Julian Bond wrote: I want to be able to say something like:- This person with this profile page URL and this mbox_sha1sum is one of my contacts. But I'm not sure how to do it in XFN. Where can I put mbox_sha1sum into a href=url rel=contacttheir name/a For the href attribute, you could use a (non-standard, but frequently used[1]) SHA1 URN: a href=urn:sha1:052f384479559f1b4854756bdce69d1c658de3b3 rel=contactTheir Name/a There Is no real way to do this in Microformats (as far as I know) but there has been some work on hashes[1] and digital signatures[2], you are maybe even asking the wrong community, and you should maybe ask the RDFa[3] community as what you are asking is possible in RDFa: a property=foaf:sha1sum href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rel=contact content=052f384479559f1b4854756bdce69d1c658de3b3Their Name/a [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/hash-examples [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures [3] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Wiki Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard uid
Hi Stephen On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 23:16 -0400, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: Most parsers I encounter take this code (fragment from inside a complete hCard that I'm parsing) : a class=url uid rel=me href=http://singpolyma.net/;span class=family-nameWeber/span, span class=given-nameStephen/span span class=additional-namePaul/span /a and give me a value of Weber, Stephen Paul for uid - the intended value was definitely http://singpolyma.net/ - which is the correct value under the standard, and what must I do to change my code to make it right if my code is what's wrong ? this caused me a little concern because nothing seems to be wrong the UID value is most definitely http://singpolyma.net/, So a tested it for you using 6 common hcard parsers most of which use X2V but different versions ranging from 0.8 - 0.11 here is the output: Source: http://weborganics.co.uk/test/ div class=vcard a class=url uid rel=me href=http://singpolyma.net/; span class=fn span class=family-nameWeber/span, span class=given-nameStephen/span span class=additional-namePaul/span /span /a /div http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ BEGIN:VCARD PRODID:-//suda.co.uk//X2V 0.11 (BETA)//EN SOURCE:http://weborganics.co.uk/test/ NAME:Test VERSION:3.0 FN;CHARSET=utf-8:Weber\, Stephen Paul UID:http://singpolyma.net/ URL:http://singpolyma.net/ END:VCARD http://technorati.com/contacts/ BEGIN:VCARD PRODID:-//suda.co.uk//X2V 0.8.4.1 (BETA)//EN SOURCE:http://weborganics.co.uk/test NAME:Test VERSION:3.0 N;CHARSET=UTF-8:Weber;Stephen;Paul;; FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Weber\, Stephen Paul UID:http://singpolyma.net/ URL:http://singpolyma.net/ END:VCARD http://tools.weborganics.co.uk/ BEGIN:VCARD PRODID:-//suda.co.uk//X2V 0.9 (BETA)//EN SOURCE:http://weborganics.co.uk/test/ NAME:Test VERSION:3.0 FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Weber\, Stephen Paul UID:http://singpolyma.net/ URL:http://singpolyma.net/ END:VCARD Tails version 0.3.8 No output but confirmed UID:http://singpolyma.net/ Operator BEGIN:VCARD PRODID:-//kaply.com//Operator 0.8//EN SOURCE:http://weborganics.co.uk/test/ NAME:Test VERSION:3.0 N: FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:Weber, Stephen Paul UID:http://singpolyma.net/ URL:http://singpolyma.net/ END:VCARD AS you can see everything is as expected so this only leaves me to think that If the parser wasn't one of the above maybe its the parser that has the problem and not you. Thanks Martin McEvoy ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
