Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:37:36PM +0530 or thereabouts, Mrinal Kalakrishnan wrote: * Using multiple e-mail addresses in Mutt * Managing mailing lists with Mutt * Using keybindings to customize mutt * Color setups for folder index, mail header and mail body * managing mails via IMAP * managing mails via POP * using digital signatures * setup for your language Are these written yet, or is it vapourware? ;-) I am sure I have seen brief notes on setting up "roles" a la pine from someone. That might be worth doing, too. I shall play Hunt The URL later. And one more suggestion - why don't you do it all in the LinuxDoc DTD (SGML) instead of using HTML directly? This will make things uniform, neat and standardized. (I'm not a fan of DocBook) :-) I'm a big fan of DocBook. If you're looking for standardisation, then I think you might want to consider DocBook, actually. As used by the Linux kernel, the FreeBSD Documentation Project, the GNOME and KDE Documentation Project, and even now used in some parts of the LDP :) Unless you mean standardisation within Mutt, of course, since I saw that the docs were in LinuxDoc. I don't know LinuxDoc very well: I have converted stuff from it to DocBook before, though. I do think DocBook is the way to go, but that's not really an argument for this list :) I'm just back from LinuxTag and ploughing through email: I shall start digging out all my saved "useful tricks" and seeing whether the 0.9x and 1.0x versions apply to 1.2 shortly. (Is this document/collection going to try to cover both, or merely to assume that people will have 1.2? I think the latter assumption will be wrong for a few months yet, but I can see some logic to starting with 1.2 stuff.) Telsa
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Telsa Gwynne proclaimed on mutt-users that: I am sure I have seen brief notes on setting up "roles" a la pine from someone. That might be worth doing, too. I shall play Hunt The URL later. Martti Rahkila has a good page on this - the link was posted earlier. I'm a big fan of DocBook. If you're looking for standardisation, then I think you might want to consider DocBook, actually. As used by the Linux kernel, the FreeBSD Documentation Project, the GNOME and KDE Documentation Project, and even now used in some parts of the LDP :) Docbook it is - we're working on it. BTW Telsa, could you please join [EMAIL PROTECTED]? I'm just back from LinuxTag and ploughing through email: I shall start digging out all my saved "useful tricks" and seeing whether the 0.9x and 1.0x versions apply to 1.2 shortly. (Is this document/collection going to try to cover both, or merely to assume that people will have 1.2? I think the latter assumption will be wrong for a few months yet, but I can see some logic to starting with 1.2 stuff.) We'll cover whatever's standard to both mutts, and wherever there's a difference (in pgp support, list support etc) we'll add notes for mutt 1.0 and 1.2 ok? :) -s -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] If little green men land in your back yard, hide any little green women you've got in the house. -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac"
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
* Suresh Ramasubramanian ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [000701 03:31]: HELP: mutt dumps core or HUMOR: pine sucks I could see a branch like: HELP: how do I use these tags Thus, straying from the whole purpose of the list. I personally like the way freebsd has it set up. mutt-questions mutt-newbies mutt-hackers mutt-chat -where this whole thread would go :) mutt-dev Curt. -- Any time things appear to be going better, you have overlooked something.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
mutt-newbie.sourceforge.net has been set up, and there's a mailing list as well ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:57:27 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Mailman results for Mutt-newbie-list Note that much of the following can also be accomplished via the World Wide Web, at: http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/mutt-newbie-list List specific commands (subscribe, who, etc) should be sent to the *-request address for the particular list, e.g. for the 'mailman' list, use 'mailman-request@...'. About the descriptions - words in ""s signify REQUIRED items and words in "[]" denote OPTIONAL items. Do not include the ""s or "[]"s when you use the commands. The following commands are valid: subscribe [password] [digest-option] [address=address] unsubscribe password [address] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] [admins are /me and Mrinal Kalakrishnan for now] -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time." -- Steven Wright
Re: a Mutt FAQ? (was Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???))
Wow, this is one crazy-looking thread! It's hard to know on which branch to post a response. As Eugene said, the original problem was the frustration of experienced members with new members who didn't read the documentation before posting simple questions. Why don't people read the documentation? 1) They don't know where it is or even that it exists. 2) They can't understand it or find things in it. 3) They're too lazy or too pressed for time to read it. I think a FAQ would be a good solution to this. The downside is that someone has to maintain it. So, is it less effort to maintain a FAQ or to answer the same questions over and over again? For a FAQ to work, it has to be thrust in the face of new users before they have a chance to ask the first question. This could be done by automatically e-mailing it to new subscribers to the list at the same time as the "Welcome to mutt-users" message, but maybe separately as "Mutt FAQ and other information" to decrease the likelihood of it being ignored. In addition, the FAQ, or a pointer to it, should be posted to the list monthly. The top of the FAQ should have something like this: Sources of information about Mutt 1. On-line help. Type '?' in any menu. From there, search for key words using '/'. 2. The on-line man page. Type 'man mutt'. 3. The mutt FAQ. This document. Also on the web at [URL]. 4. The mutt manual. While running mutt, hit the F1 function key. If this doesn't work, look in the mutt distribution directory in doc/manual.txt, or on the web at http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual.txt. 5. The Mutt home page, http://www.mutt.org/. 6. Usenet news, comp.mail.mutt. 7. The mutt-users mailing list. See http://www.mutt.org/#discuss. I don't have any experience with separate lists for newbies and hackers, but I don't see how that would solve the problem. How are newbies to get proper answers from other newbies? If I wanted to be helpful and subscribe to both lists, I would still want to do something to minimize the volume of questions to the newbie list. Also, there are all types of newbies. The annoying ones are the clueless ones. Would a clueless newbie know to subscribe to the newbie list? Regards, Gary -- Gary Johnson | Agilent Technologies [EMAIL PROTECTED] | RF Communications Product Generation Unit | Spokane, Washington, USA
Re: a Mutt FAQ? (was Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???))
Gary Johnson proclaimed on mutt-users that: Wow, this is one crazy-looking thread! It's hard to know on which branch to post a response. Easy to do - bin all the useless / m3 t00 posts in a long thread and you'll have something manageable. I think a FAQ would be a good solution to this. The downside is that someone has to maintain it. So, is it less effort to maintain a FAQ or to answer the same questions over and over again? maintain a faq. For a FAQ to work, it has to be thrust in the face of new users before they have a chance to ask the first question. This could be done by I know people who just delete the welcome message majordomo sends ;) Anyway, a footer can be added to mails - rtfm at mutt-newbie.sourceforge.net first, ask questions next, or something :) "Mutt FAQ and other information" to decrease the likelihood of it being ignored. In addition, the FAQ, or a pointer to it, should be posted to might work Sources of information about Mutt 1. On-line help. Type '?' in any menu. From there, search for key 8 lots of good stuff. thanks :) I don't have any experience with separate lists for newbies and hackers, but I don't see how that would solve the problem. How are newbies to try [EMAIL PROTECTED] - set up specially for newbies :) get proper answers from other newbies? If I wanted to be helpful and subscribe to both lists, I would still want to do something to minimize the volume of questions to the newbie list. Maybe a bot which spits out the mutt faq anytime someone posts something there (or maybe on the basis of some kind of procmail to grep for keywords ...) listservers already do this with help topic Also, there are all types of newbies. The annoying ones are the clueless ones. Would a clueless newbie know to subscribe to the newbie list? If he can't subscribe to mutt-newbie, he won't (likely) be able to get onto mutt-users. Clueless newbies who don't post on lists are a-ok :) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] The giraffe you thought you offended last week is willing to be nuzzled today.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:45:07AM -0400 or thereabouts, David T-G wrote: Not particularly; I just want to help out the faq project to get some quick answers for folks and unclutter the list. Unclutter the list? Would a different mailing list addy help? IN FreeBSD they have a freebsd-newbies and freebsd-hackers mailing list which I think this list needs. mutt-newbies and mutt-hackers What you'd all think about it?
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Rino Mardo proclaimed on mutt-users that: On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:45:07AM -0400 or thereabouts, David T-G wrote: Not particularly; I just want to help out the faq project to get some quick answers for folks and unclutter the list. Unclutter the list? Would a different mailing list addy help? IN FreeBSD they have a freebsd-newbies and freebsd-hackers mailing list which I think this list needs. mutt-newbies and mutt-hackers Ditto with [EMAIL PROTECTED] and such. But why do you want to fragment the list? A better way is to introduce list topics, and have people subscribed only to specific topics. Listserv supports it (and majordomo 2 as well, iirc) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] If little green men land in your back yard, hide any little green women you've got in the house. -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac"
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:40:27PM +0530 or thereabouts, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Ditto with [EMAIL PROTECTED] and such. But why do you want to fragment the list? A better way is to introduce list topics, and have people subscribed only to specific topics. Listserv supports it (and majordomo 2 as well, iirc) I'm not familiar with list topics. Sounds the same to me. Care to elaborate?
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Rino Mardo proclaimed on mutt-users that: On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 03:40:27PM +0530 or thereabouts, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Ditto with [EMAIL PROTECTED] and such. But why do you want to fragment the list? A better way is to introduce list topics, and have people subscribed only to specific topics. Listserv supports it (and majordomo 2 as well, iirc) I'm not familiar with list topics. Sounds the same to me. Care to elaborate? Actually, listserv allows people to add tags to their subject - something like HELP: mutt dumps core or HUMOR: pine sucks or whatever. People can subscribe to see only whichever topics they choose. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] If little green men land in your back yard, hide any little green women you've got in the house. -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac"
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 04:03:19PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Actually, listserv allows people to add tags to their subject - something like HELP: mutt dumps core or whatever. People can subscribe to see only whichever topics they choose. I have hosted a LISTSERV (TM) list with about 400 subscribers for several years. The only way to make topics work on my list is to moderate it, i.e., the moderator must approve each post and possibly edit it to add or change a topic because a large fraction of the subscribers do not (even after repeated reminders) add one of the pre-assigned topic keywords, or change the topic keyword when the thread drifts into another area. Perhaps it would work acceptably well on a list with more technically competent users, like this one. Regards, -rex
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
rex proclaimed on mutt-users that: I have hosted a LISTSERV (TM) list with about 400 subscribers for several years. The only way to make topics work on my list is to moderate it, i.e., the moderator must approve each post and possibly It works really well on the spam-l mailing list - [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think at least two or three spam-l members are on this list, they can tell you that topics work quite ok when your members are clued enough :) See the spam-l faq at http://www.ot.com/~dmuth/spam-l for more. Perhaps it would work acceptably well on a list with more technically competent users, like this one. It will, it will :) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Love at first sight is one of the greatest labor-saving devices the world has ever seen.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
David T-G proclaimed on mutt-users that: % % Mrinal's idea of using CVS for this is pretty good, given such a % situation. % % Could some kind soul please contribute a CVS repository for this? Show me how and I'll be happy to. mutt.sector13.org will be coming on line soon for this sort of stuff. Set up at sourceforge - Project Full Name: The Mutt For Newbies Guide Project Unix Name: mutt-newbie CVS Server: cvs.mutt-newbie.sourceforge.net Shell/Web Server: mutt-newbie.sourceforge.net Should be active in a few hours (when their next cronjob runs - six hour time intervals). I'll upload the initial work that's been done tomorrow. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Love at first sight is one of the greatest labor-saving devices the world has ever seen.
a Mutt FAQ? (was Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???))
On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 12:03:29PM +0400, Rino Mardo wrote: : On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:45:07AM -0400 or thereabouts, David T-G wrote: : : Not particularly; I just want to help out the faq project to get some : quick answers for folks and unclutter the list. : : Unclutter the list? Would a different mailing list addy help? IN : FreeBSD they have a freebsd-newbies and freebsd-hackers mailing list : which I think this list needs. mutt-newbies and mutt-hackers : : What you'd all think about it? Is there enough newbie traffic to warrant the creation of a separate mailing list? If there is, do so. If there isn't, address the real problem at hand. I think the problem is the same that other forums have, which is how one handles the same questions over and over again, without having to write the same answers over and over again. To that end, a FAQ makes more sense. Telling newbies to RTFM is like giving little school kids in English class a college level grammar reference, while pointing out a FAQ is like giving kids the teacher's edition of an English workbook --- because it comes with the answers! Once the kids understand the basics, or enough to solve their immediate problems, they can move onto the official references. I'm also interested in helping out with a Mutt FAQ project. So who's in charge of the beast? :) -- Eugene Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a Mutt FAQ? (was Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???))
Eugene Lee proclaimed on mutt-users that: I'm also interested in helping out with a Mutt FAQ project. So who's in charge of the beast? :) mutt-newbie.sourceforge.net has been set up - I and Mrinal Kalakrishnan mrinal @ india.com have elected ourselves as sacrificial goats and will take charge of this beast :) We'll have some html pages put up there once sourceforge's cronjob sets things up (there'll be a 6 hour delay). There's also a mailing list mutt-newbie-list @ lists.sourceforge.net which will be setup soon (as soon as said cronjob gets around to doing it) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] The right half of the brain controls the left half of the body. This means that only left handed people are in their right mind.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Byrial Jensen proclaimed on mutt-users that: On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:41:12 -0400, David T-G wrote: Yeah. I've since learned that there isn't any sort of "documentation group" for mutt, so we have nobody to ask. Time to call for volunteers, I don't volunteer to write. It must be a job for native English speakers to make English documentation, but the volunteer group (if any such are made) are welcome ask me their technical questions in order to write correct documentation. I'm _not_ a native English speaker, but we Indians speaka da eenglish really well (or at least, well enough for this, I hope) :) I've started work on one - and Sven Guckes Robin Socha have been really helpful on this. Keep watching ... -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Cleveland? Yes, I spent a week there one day."
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Mrinal Kalakrishnan proclaimed on mutt-users that: Why don't you post each FAQ to the list as each one is done (all in one thread) so that people can suggest changes, as well as track it's development? 'k. Here (as printed in lynx) is what index.html will look like ... (thanks to Sven for a few additions). Requires a _lot_ of work right now. Mutt for Newbies Mutt - the mongrel of Mail User Agents [mutt.gif] "All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less." - Mike Elkins running mutt line from sven's page Mutt is a mail program. Actually, it is a mixture of mail programs, taking only the best features of several mail programs - elm, pine, and others. It's mixture makes it a "mongrel of mailers" - hence its name - "mutt". woof The original author of Mutt was Michael Elkins. Mutt is much lighter and far more configurable than PINE, and (dare I say it) far lighter and just as configurable as VM on emacs - see for yourself. Mutt has much more features than Microsoft Outlook Express and other such 'doze brokenware, and streets ahead of (say) PINE because * It sucks less (so says Mike Elkins) * It rocks (and so say all of us) * vi is the default editor * Has lots of other cool features [I wish there was an extra page for this, eg http://www.mutt.org/features.html] Get up and running with mutt Mutt will work out of the box, but there are a few things which may have to be tweaked. For example, you might want to get your mail via POP from within Mutt - then you need to install it such that it contains the code for POP support. Other installation options add code for colored text, use of Gnu regular expressions, and protocols such as GSS, IMAP, PGP, SSL. However, quite a lot of these tweaks will be to your "muttrc" - the user's configuration file (usually $HOME/.muttrc). One of these tweaks is setting your outbound address, ie the one that will show up in the From: line. For example, I have a linux box called whack.spammers.cluestick.org, but my address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't want to send out mails as [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I wouldn't even get a single reply, and anyone trying to mail me at this very entertaining address would get a bounce. So, I have to tell mutt that my address is actually [EMAIL PROTECTED] The line in my muttrc then would read like this: my_hdr From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's a few more things I'd love to do - and can do with mutt. Using PINE, I'd just not bother trying them at all :) The best way to get a running start is to grab someone's .muttrc and make a few minor changes. There are a few very good (and one fair to middling) .muttrcs (in HTML format) linked below - they are all extensively commented. * Mike Elkins * Thomas Roessler * Sven Guckes (*) * Felix von Leitner * Karsten Rohrbach * Lots more at dotfiles.com * Oh yeah - I'll throw in my .muttrc as well :) Or, you could try Mahdi Nazir's online .muttrc generator at http://mutt.netliberte.org See also: http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/user.html for some more pages on mutt with setup files, patches, scripts and more. Now, you've probably got a serviceable (actually, a pretty good) .muttrc - quite adequate if you use only one e-mail address and don't get too much mail (especially from several mailing lists). If you are a trifle more adventurous, see below :) * Using multiple e-mail addresses in Mutt * Managing mailing lists with Mutt * Using keybindings to customize mutt * Color setups for folder index, mail header and mail body * managing mails via IMAP * managing mails via POP * using digital signatures * setup for your language $Id: mutt/index.html: $Author: Suresh Ramasubramanian - mallet (@) cluestick.org$ $Date: 2000/06/20 19:17:06$ $Revision: 1.00$ with some additions by Sven Guckes 000628 -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] "I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure."
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi, Suresh Ramasubramanian typed: * Using multiple e-mail addresses in Mutt * Managing mailing lists with Mutt * Using keybindings to customize mutt * Color setups for folder index, mail header and mail body * managing mails via IMAP * managing mails via POP * using digital signatures * setup for your language Are these written yet, or is it vapourware? ;-) $Id: mutt/index.html: $Author: Suresh Ramasubramanian - mallet (@) cluestick.org$ $Date: 2000/06/20 19:17:06$ $Revision: 1.00$ Is this some local CVS? How about putting it on the mutt CVS repository (or some public repository)? Then the others will know exactly how much is finished at a point of time, and can contribute the remaining sections. And one more suggestion - why don't you do it all in the LinuxDoc DTD (SGML) instead of using HTML directly? This will make things uniform, neat and standardized. (I'm not a fan of DocBook) :-) -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mrinal.dhs.org/ Linux 2.2.16 || PGP:B1E86F5B || Mutt 1.3.4i (2000-06-19) || VIM 5.6 -- "It's God. No, not Richard Stallman, or Linus Torvalds, but God." (By Matt Welsh)
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Mrinal Kalakrishnan proclaimed on mutt-users that: Suresh Ramasubramanian typed: * Using multiple e-mail addresses in Mutt done * Managing mailing lists with Mutt mostly done * Using keybindings to customize mutt to do * Color setups for folder index, mail header and mail body done * managing mails via IMAP * managing mails via POP imap and pop using mutt's checking features _and_ using fetchmail. Being worked on - but I am thinking of how to differentiate betn when to use mutt's imap features and when to poll mails using fetchmail. I don't use imap all that often here - so someone who reads imap folders with mutt extensively could help a bit ... * using digital signatures Has to be done * setup for your language I'm digging out stuff re this - Sven pointed me to a couple of good howtos. $Id: mutt/index.html: $Author: Suresh Ramasubramanian - mallet (@) cluestick.org$ $Date: 2000/06/20 19:17:06$ $Revision: 1.00$ Is this some local CVS? How about putting it on the mutt CVS I plan to do this - someplace like sourceforge say? And one more suggestion - why don't you do it all in the LinuxDoc DTD (SGML) instead of using HTML directly? This will make things uniform, neat and standardized. (I'm not a fan of DocBook) :-) I am much better at html than am at SGML :) I'll convert the lot later I suppose ... -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boy, n.: A noise with dirt on it.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:01:47PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Why don't you post each FAQ to the list as each one is done (all in one thread) so that people can suggest changes, as well as track it's development? [...] The original author of Mutt was Michael Elkins. (I think ME still *is* the original author.) [...] One of these tweaks is setting your outbound address, ie the one that will show up in the From: line. For example, I have a linux box called whack.spammers.cluestick.org, but my address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't want to send out mails as [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I wouldn't even get a single reply, and anyone trying to mail me at this very entertaining address would get a bounce. So, I have to tell mutt that my address is actually [EMAIL PROTECTED] The line in my muttrc then would read like this: my_hdr From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] This won't fix your (I mean, the user's) envelope address. I suggest mentioning $envelope_from at this point, or bounces and error messages won't reach you (and some SMTP servers won't accept non-existing domain names in the envelope -- which is often the case for dialup users). Marius Gedminas -- C is a language that combines all the elegance and power of assembly language with all the readability and maintainability of assembly language.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Marius Gedminas proclaimed on mutt-users that: The original author of Mutt was Michael Elkins. (I think ME still *is* the original author.) grammatically speaking, he was, is and will be :) my_hdr From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] This won't fix your (I mean, the user's) envelope address. I suggest and older mutts need set sendmail=/path/to/sendmail -t -oi -oem -f [EMAIL PROTECTED] mentioning $envelope_from at this point, or bounces and error messages won't reach you (and some SMTP servers won't accept non-existing domain names in the envelope -- which is often the case for dialup users). All this will be covered (and is in front of me on a scratch pad at this moment) -suresh :) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just because your doctor has a name for your condition doesn't mean he knows what it is.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:35:40AM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Byrial Jensen proclaimed on mutt-users that: On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:41:12 -0400, David T-G wrote: Yeah. I've since learned that there isn't any sort of "documentation group" for mutt, so we have nobody to ask. Time to call for volunteers, I don't volunteer to write. It must be a job for native English speakers to make English documentation, but the volunteer group (if any such are made) are welcome ask me their technical questions in order to write correct documentation. I'm _not_ a native English speaker, but we Indians speaka da eenglish really well (or at least, well enough for this, I hope) :) You probably speak it better than the average newly minted government school graduate in this country. I've started work on one - and Sven Guckes Robin Socha have been really helpful on this. Perhaps you all will consider contributing anyway. Whether an author is a native Engish speaker or not, all of the draft documentation should be edited for a consistent grammar, style, spelling etc. I am a native English speaker -- OK, American -- and a published author. I know dang well that I cannot edit my own stuff worth a dang. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Charles Curley proclaimed on mutt-users that: Perhaps you all will consider contributing anyway. Whether an author is a native Engish speaker or not, all of the draft documentation should be edited for a consistent grammar, style, spelling etc. I am a native English speaker -- OK, American -- and a published author. I know dang well that I cannot edit my own stuff worth a dang. Mrinal's idea of using CVS for this is pretty good, given such a situation. Could some kind soul please contribute a CVS repository for this? -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. -- Sam Brown, "The Washington Post", January 26, 1977
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Suresh, et al -- ...and then Suresh Ramasubramanian said... % Charles Curley proclaimed on mutt-users that: Actually, nothing pertinent to this question, I don't think... % % Mrinal's idea of using CVS for this is pretty good, given such a % situation. % % Could some kind soul please contribute a CVS repository for this? Show me how and I'll be happy to. mutt.sector13.org will be coming on line soon for this sort of stuff. % % -- % Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] % Never offend people with style when you can offend them with % substance. % -- Sam Brown, "The Washington Post", January 26, 1977 :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bigfoot.com/~davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! The "new millennium" starts at the beginning of 2001. There was no year 0. Note: If bigfoot.com gives you fits, try sector13.org in its place. *sigh* PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Mrinal's idea of using CVS for this is pretty good, given such a situation. Could some kind soul please contribute a CVS repository for this? I lost track of this thread. The Mutt Documentation Project? Use SourceForge.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:01:47PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian muttered:
Mrinal Kalakrishnan proclaimed on mutt-users that:
Why don't you post each FAQ to the list as each one is done (all in
one thread) so that people can suggest changes, as well as track it's
development?
'k. Here (as printed in lynx) is what index.html will look like ...
(thanks to Sven for a few additions). Requires a _lot_ of work right now.
Mutt for Newbies
Mutt - the mongrel of Mail User Agents [mutt.gif]
"All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less." - Mike Elkins
running mutt line from sven's page
Mutt is a mail program. Actually, it is a mixture of mail programs,
taking only the best features of several mail programs - elm, pine,
and others. It's mixture makes it a "mongrel of mailers" - hence its
name - "mutt". woof
The original author of Mutt was Michael Elkins.
And still is, as has been noted.
Mutt is much lighter and far more configurable than PINE, and (dare I
say it) far lighter and just as configurable as VM on emacs - see for
yourself.
Mutt has much more features than Microsoft Outlook Express and other
many
Product names should have TM if you can do it.
such 'doze brokenware, and streets ahead of (say) PINE because
* It sucks less (so says Mike Elkins)
* It rocks (and so say all of us)
* vi is the default editor
* Has lots of other cool features
This is fun, but doesn't really tell the reader why mutt is better than
Pine.
[I wish there was an extra page for this, eg
http://www.mutt.org/features.html]
Get up and running with mutt
Mutt will work out of the box, but there are a few things which may
have to be tweaked. For example, you might want to get your mail via
POP from within Mutt - then you need to install it such that it
contains the code for POP support. Other installation options add code
for colored text, use of Gnu regular expressions, and protocols such
as GSS, IMAP, PGP, SSL. However, quite a lot of these tweaks will be
Is PGP a protocol? I know there is an RFC, but don't tknow its
status. Also, as a rule you should spell out an acronym the first time the
reader encounters it. For example: Pretty Good Privacy (PGP), Secure
Sockets Layer (SSL). Acronyms are also excellent candidates for a
glossary.
to your "muttrc" - the user's configuration file (usually
$HOME/.muttrc).
One of these tweaks is setting your outbound address, ie the one that
will show up in the From: line. For example, I have a linux box called
whack.spammers.cluestick.org, but my address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't want to send out mails as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- I wouldn't even get a single reply, and anyone trying to mail me at
this very entertaining address would get a bounce. So, I have to tell
mutt that my address is actually [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The line in my muttrc then would read like this:
my_hdr From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There's a few more things I'd love to do - and can do with mutt. Using
PINE, I'd just not bother trying them at all :)
Insert period (.) at the end: trying them at all. :)
The best way to get a running start is to grab someone's .muttrc and
make a few minor changes.
There are a few very good (and one fair to middling) .muttrcs (in HTML
format) linked below - they are all extensively commented.
* Mike Elkins
* Thomas Roessler
* Sven Guckes (*)
* Felix von Leitner
* Karsten Rohrbach
* Lots more at dotfiles.com
* Oh yeah - I'll throw in my .muttrc as well :)
Or, you could try Mahdi Nazir's online .muttrc generator at
http://mutt.netliberte.org See also:
http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/user.html for some more
pages on mutt with setup files, patches, scripts and more.
Now, you've probably got a serviceable (actually, a pretty good)
.muttrc - quite adequate if you use only one e-mail address and don't
get too much mail (especially from several mailing lists). If you are
a trifle more adventurous, see below :)
Again, period before the smiley.
* Using multiple e-mail addresses in Mutt
* Managing mailing lists with Mutt
* Using keybindings to customize mutt
* Color setups for folder index, mail header and mail body
* managing mails via IMAP
* managing mails via POP
* using digital signatures
* setup for your language
$Id: mutt/index.html: $Author: Suresh Ramasubramanian - mallet (@)
cluestick.org$ $Date: 2000/06/20 19:17:06$ $Revision: 1.00$
with some additions by Sven Guckes 000628
This is a
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 05:19:04PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian muttered: Mrinal Kalakrishnan proclaimed on mutt-users that: Suresh Ramasubramanian typed: * using digital signatures Has to be done I just recently got GPG running, so may be able to do something there. And one more suggestion - why don't you do it all in the LinuxDoc DTD (SGML) instead of using HTML directly? This will make things uniform, neat and standardized. (I'm not a fan of DocBook) :-) I am much better at html than am at SGML :) I'll convert the lot later I suppose ... Do the conversion now, and save yourself a LOT of problems later on. Believe me, been there, done that. You could use SGML mode in Emacs. :-) -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi, Suresh Ramasubramanian typed: Is this some local CVS? How about putting it on the mutt CVS I plan to do this - someplace like sourceforge say? Yeah - that would be nice. Maybe - mutt-guide.sourceforge.net? I can set that up if required - just give me a holler. I'm jobless for 24 hours a day! ;-) And one more suggestion - why don't you do it all in the LinuxDoc DTD (SGML) instead of using HTML directly? This will make things uniform, neat and standardized. (I'm not a fan of DocBook) :-) I am much better at html than am at SGML :) I'll convert the lot later I suppose ... The advantage with LinuxDoc/DocBook DTDs is that you can convert it to any format you like later. So you can have an online HTML version, plain text, PS, PDF, etc.. (like the mutt docs) And it's no big deal to learn. Since HTML is also an SGML DTD, the syntax is essentially the same. Send the whole lot of HTML files to me - I'll convert it tonight. Just take a look at the format, and you'll get the idea! :-) And then you'll never want to write docs in HTML again! :-) -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mrinal.dhs.org/ Linux 2.2.16 || PGP:B1E86F5B || Mutt 1.3.4i (2000-06-19) || VIM 5.6 -- "On the Internet, no one knows you're using Windows NT" (Submitted by Ramiro Estrugo, [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi, David T-G typed: % Could some kind soul please contribute a CVS repository for this? Show me how and I'll be happy to. mutt.sector13.org will be coming on line soon for this sort of stuff. You really want to take the trouble? Or is mutt-guide.sourceforge.net enough? If we register with sourceforge, we get a mailing list (for patches) and web space as well.. :-) -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mrinal.dhs.org/ Linux 2.2.16 || PGP:B1E86F5B || Mutt 1.3.4i (2000-06-19) || VIM 5.6 -- Microsoft Corp., concerned by the growing popularity of the free 32-bit operating system for Intel systems, Linux, has employed a number of top programmers from the underground world of virus development. Bill Gates stated yesterday: "World domination, fast -- it's either us or Linus". Mr. Torvalds was unavailable for comment ... ([EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Manners), in comp.os.linux.setup)
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi, Lars Hecking typed: Mrinal's idea of using CVS for this is pretty good, given such a situation. Could some kind soul please contribute a CVS repository for this? I lost track of this thread. The Mutt Documentation Project? Yeah. Use SourceForge. I was about to create a project at sourceforge, but I needed to give the licensing terms. So Suresh, Sven, etc. have to decide upon the license. -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mrinal.dhs.org/ Linux 2.2.16 || PGP:B1E86F5B || Mutt 1.3.4i (2000-06-19) || VIM 5.6 -- "World domination. Fast" (By Linus Torvalds)
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Mrinal -- ...and then Mrinal Kalakrishnan said... % Hi, Hello! % % David T-G typed: % % Could some kind soul please contribute a CVS repository for this? % Show me how and I'll be happy to. mutt.sector13.org will be coming on % line soon for this sort of stuff. % % You really want to take the trouble? Or is mutt-guide.sourceforge.net Not particularly; I just want to help out the faq project to get some quick answers for folks and unclutter the list. % enough? If we register with sourceforge, we get a mailing list (for % patches) and web space as well.. :-) I hadn't known about that (note the dates on my and C^2's notes) when I posted this. I surfed over to sourceforge and I am properly awed. Wow. Very cool. If we can get ourselves set up there, fine. If not, I'm still here. http://mutt.sector13.org is already up, though quite bare. I still think we ought to have a good^Wbetter place to search through the mail archives, so I don't think that my site is completely obsolete, but it can live or die as the users demand :-) % % -- % Mrinal Kalakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mrinal.dhs.org/ % Linux 2.2.16 || PGP:B1E86F5B || Mutt 1.3.4i (2000-06-19) || VIM 5.6 % -- % Microsoft Corp., concerned by the growing popularity of the free 32-bit % operating system for Intel systems, Linux, has employed a number of top % programmers from the underground world of virus development. Bill Gates stated % yesterday: "World domination, fast -- it's either us or Linus". Mr. Torvalds % was unavailable for comment ... % ([EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Manners), in comp.os.linux.setup) :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bigfoot.com/~davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! The "new millennium" starts at the beginning of 2001. There was no year 0. Note: If bigfoot.com gives you fits, try sector13.org in its place. *sigh* PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Charles Curley proclaimed on mutt-users that: The original author of Mutt was Michael Elkins. And still is, as has been noted. Was, is and will be. If the grammar's bad, please do excuse me :) Mutt has much more features than Microsoft Outlook Express and other many Product names should have TM if you can do it. Can do, will do. * It sucks less (so says Mike Elkins) * It rocks (and so say all of us) * vi is the default editor * Has lots of other cool features This is fun, but doesn't really tell the reader why mutt is better than Pine. That last line (other cool features) links to a features.html page (maybe the list on mutt.org) [I wish there was an extra page for this, eg http://www.mutt.org/features.html] So do I :) Get up and running with mutt Mutt will work out of the box, but there are a few things which may have to be tweaked. For example, you might want to get your mail via POP from within Mutt - then you need to install it such that it contains the code for POP support. Other installation options add code for colored text, use of Gnu regular expressions, and protocols such as GSS, IMAP, PGP, SSL. However, quite a lot of these tweaks will be Is PGP a protocol? I know there is an RFC, but don't tknow its status. Also, as a rule you should spell out an acronym the first time the That text was added by Sven - I'm not sure whether it's a _protocol_ as such. reader encounters it. For example: Pretty Good Privacy (PGP), Secure Sockets Layer (SSL). Acronyms are also excellent candidates for a glossary. There _is_ a glossary under construction. Said glossary will also include a lot of *nix terminology I don't want to explain in the main text (stuff like $home, configure, make, rpm and such) PINE, I'd just not bother trying them at all :) Insert period (.) at the end: trying them at all. :) OK. :) ^^ Like this? :) This is a good start. I suggest you also cover personalities, as at http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/~mara/mutt/profiles.html. Thanks!! Bookmarked. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bradley's Bromide: If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee -- that will do them in.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 05:19:04PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: imap and pop using mutt's checking features _and_ using fetchmail. Being worked on - but I am thinking of how to differentiate betn when to use mutt's imap features and when to poll mails using fetchmail. I don't use imap all that often here - so someone who reads imap folders with mutt extensively could help a bit ... I do all my mail stuff with IMAP/SSL, what do you need for help? Kai -- x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x Kai Blin(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Webmaster Inst. of Human Genetics Dept. of Molecular Genetics Wilhelmstr 27 phone (49)7071-2974890 D 72074 Tuebingen, Germany fax (49)7071-295233 http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/thm/molgen/molgen.html Do molecular biologists wear designer genes? x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:16:04PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: If GPL is a-ok with y'all it's a-ok with me. Now _please_ don't start a license war over this ;) I think that a manual should come with the same license as the program. Kai -- x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x Kai Blin(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Webmaster Inst. of Human Genetics Dept. of Molecular Genetics Wilhelmstr 27 phone (49)7071-2974890 D 72074 Tuebingen, Germany fax (49)7071-295233 http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/thm/molgen/molgen.html Do molecular biologists wear designer genes? x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Kai Blin proclaimed on mutt-users that: I don't use imap all that often here - so someone who reads imap folders with mutt extensively could help a bit ... I do all my mail stuff with IMAP/SSL, what do you need for help? Put together a short howto on this - with all the "gotchas" - about expunging mails from imap servers, how to handle the slightly different folder structure in courier imap and other daemons ... And don't worry about the english - but let it be in english for now - Ich nicht spreche deutsch ;) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bradley's Bromide: If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee -- that will do them in.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Kai Blin proclaimed on mutt-users that: On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:16:04PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: If GPL is a-ok with y'all it's a-ok with me. Now _please_ don't start a license war over this ;) I think that a manual should come with the same license as the program. so gpl it is :) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bradley's Bromide: If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee -- that will do them in.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On 2000.06.30, in [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mrinal Kalakrishnan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The advantage with LinuxDoc/DocBook DTDs is that you can convert it to any format you like later. So you can have an online HTML version, plain text, PS, PDF, etc.. (like the mutt docs) The disadvantage, last time I checked, is that it's still tedious to get them processed on Unix. Maybe that's not necessary, but I always argue with any decision that (in practice) drives data or a process out of the realm of portability. -- -D.[EMAIL PROTECTED]NSITUniversity of Chicago
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
David Champion proclaimed on mutt-users that: On 2000.06.30, in [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mrinal Kalakrishnan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The advantage with LinuxDoc/DocBook DTDs is that you can convert it to any format you like later. So you can have an online HTML version, plain text, PS, PDF, etc.. (like the mutt docs) The disadvantage, last time I checked, is that it's still tedious to get them processed on Unix. Maybe that's not necessary, but I always argue with any decision that (in practice) drives data or a process out of the realm of portability. ... so what format do you suggest? HTML is the best - still (imho) -- Suresh Ramasubramanian + [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bradley's Bromide: If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee -- that will do them in.
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:22:03PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian muttered: Charles Curley proclaimed on mutt-users that: Get up and running with mutt Mutt will work out of the box, but there are a few things which may have to be tweaked. For example, you might want to get your mail via POP from within Mutt - then you need to install it such that it contains the code for POP support. Other installation options add code for colored text, use of Gnu regular expressions, and protocols such as GSS, IMAP, PGP, SSL. However, quite a lot of these tweaks will be Is PGP a protocol? I know there is an RFC, but don't tknow its status. Also, as a rule you should spell out an acronym the first time the That text was added by Sven - I'm not sure whether it's a _protocol_ as such. OK, then perhaps, " Other installation options add code for features such as colored text, Gnu regular expressions, GSS, IMAP, PGP, and SSL. reader encounters it. For example: Pretty Good Privacy (PGP), Secure Sockets Layer (SSL). Acronyms are also excellent candidates for a glossary. There _is_ a glossary under construction. Said glossary will also include a lot of *nix terminology I don't want to explain in the main text (stuff like $home, configure, make, rpm and such) Excellent. We'll have lots to carp about, er, look over. I'm looking forward to it. PINE, I'd just not bother trying them at all :) Insert period (.) at the end: trying them at all. :) OK. :) ^^ Like this? :) Yep. :) -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On 2000.06.30, in [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Suresh Ramasubramanian" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: get them processed on Unix. Maybe that's not necessary, but I always argue with any decision that (in practice) drives data or a process out of the realm of portability. ... so what format do you suggest? HTML is the best - still (imho) I'm a major fan of runoff. :) -- -D.[EMAIL PROTECTED]NSITUniversity of Chicago
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 01:16:34PM -0600, Charles Curley muttered: On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:22:03PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian muttered: Charles Curley proclaimed on mutt-users that: Get up and running with mutt Mutt will work out of the box, but there are a few things which may have to be tweaked. For example, you might want to get your mail via POP from within Mutt - then you need to install it such that it contains the code for POP support. Other installation options add code for colored text, use of Gnu regular expressions, and protocols such as GSS, IMAP, PGP, SSL. However, quite a lot of these tweaks will be Is PGP a protocol? I know there is an RFC, but don't tknow its status. Also, as a rule you should spell out an acronym the first time the That text was added by Sven - I'm not sure whether it's a _protocol_ as such. OK, then perhaps, " Other installation options add code for features such as colored text, Gnu regular expressions, GSS, IMAP, PGP, and SSL. Make that GNU. It's an acronym: "Gnu's Not Unix." -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi Charles! On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Charles Curley wrote: OK, then perhaps, " Other installation options add code for features such as colored text, Gnu regular expressions, GSS, IMAP, PGP, and SSL. Make that GNU. It's an acronym: "Gnu's Not Unix." ^^^ Make that GNU. It's an acronym: "GNU's Not Unix." oh well.. :) yours, peter 1. www.gnu.org -- http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~ppalfrad [ not signed since this is an untrusted box ]
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi, Suresh Ramasubramanian typed: ... so what format do you suggest? HTML is the best - still (imho) IMHO, HTML is clumsy, and is not structured like LinuxDoc is for documentation. Anyway, lets see.. :-) -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mrinal.dhs.org/ Linux 2.2.16 || PGP:B1E86F5B || Mutt 1.3.4i (2000-06-19) || VIM 5.6 -- "Note that if I can get you to \"su and say\" something just by asking, you have a very serious security problem on your system and you should look into it." (By Paul Vixie, vixie-cron 3.0.1 installation notes)
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi, David Champion typed: The advantage with LinuxDoc/DocBook DTDs is that you can convert it to any format you like later. So you can have an online HTML version, plain text, PS, PDF, etc.. (like the mutt docs) The disadvantage, last time I checked, is that it's still tedious to get them processed on Unix. Maybe that's not necessary, but I always argue with any decision that (in practice) drives data or a process out of the realm of portability. That's just like the situation of mutt development now, IIRC. Developers have to use GNU tools, but users can compile with any `make' they want. So here, developers use sgmltools, and the distro will be in html / whatever. -- Mrinal Kalakrishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mrinal.dhs.org/ Linux 2.2.16 || PGP:B1E86F5B || Mutt 1.3.4i (2000-06-19) || VIM 5.6 -- We are Pentium of Borg. Division is futile. You will be approximated. (seen in someone's .signature)
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:08:28PM -0400, David T-G wrote: [...] for starters? Heck, maybe the Muttrc included in RPMs could pop up a message saying "Don't ask; read first" until the user figures out how to get rid of it, [...] Hm, maybe for a start I could put a few big, red "Read the manual!" on the RPM Team webpages... ;-) Other than that, I'm not certain a "nag screen" is such a good idea - as tempting as the idea is. Simply too annoying, if you ask me. Thomas -- - Thomas Ribbrock http://mutt.linuxatwork.at (mutt RPMs) http://www.bigfoot.com/~kaytanICQ#: 15839919 "You have to live on the edge of reality - to make your dreams come true!"
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 01:32:41AM +0100, Thomas Ribbrock wrote: On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:08:28PM -0400, David T-G wrote: [...] for starters? Heck, maybe the Muttrc included in RPMs could pop up a message saying "Don't ask; read first" until the user figures out how to get rid of it, [...] Hm, maybe for a start I could put a few big, red "Read the manual!" on the RPM Team webpages... ;-) Other than that, I'm not certain a "nag screen" is such a good idea - as tempting as the idea is. Simply too annoying, if you ask me. I'm pretty sure, that if such a message were added to Mutt, the mailing list would be flooded with questions "how do I turn this message off?" ;-) Marius Gedminas -- We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company.
those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Hi, everyone in general -- Without going too far into the whole argument of what's intuitive or not and without condemning too much, I hope, those users who get in our way and keep us from doing what we should be able to do (read mail and surf and occasionally fix systems :-) I would say that this *is* becoming a FAQ and it's because folks aren't reading the docs. It seems that mutt is cresting one of those points of explosive growth where we see a massive influx of clueless newbies -- perhaps, due to the easy availability of Linux and even other more mainstream *NIX distributions, so new that they don't even know how things work in The Right World (tm) -- and have to deal with a bunch of questions that seem pretty darned dumb even when we look back to the days when we were young and lusers ourselves. Unfortunately, this translates directly into more traffic on the mailing lists that is of fairly low interest to at least the Original Ones; after all, who wants to keep telling people why mutt doesn't talk on port 25 or how to configure pgp or why color works with vim but not mutt or even how to group reply. Note that I'm guilty, in recent times, of some of these questions myself; I'd like to think that I've done my homework and found the documentation confusing or lacking, but it's more probable that I just didn't do my homework, either. The problem, though, is that some of the Original Ones are getting tired of this crap and are unsubscribing or strongly contemplating it. I can hardly blame them; I saw the same decline on the sun-managers list a couple of years ago, and went that route myself. It seems to me, though I certainly speak not from any position of authority, that we as the mutt community need to come up with some Quick Start and "mutt for the impatient" docs, perhaps along the lines of the proposed "mutt for Attorneys" item mentioned recently, to head off some of the questions but also to come up with some more proactive methods of getting this information out. Without going into a drawn-out call for votes or anything silly like that, what does anyone think about - asking, most very humbly, the doc writers to spend some time on the FAQ or Quick Start, even at the expense of the full documentation, just to round it out and provide something to throw at requesters - somehow more strongly expecting those who post questions to post summaries (even if it's a summary of lack of response) - better promoting the searchable archives and perhaps redesigning the main mutt page to first send folks to answers - a mail server (my favorite idea :-) to which folks can forward such requests that spits out a form letter to the requester pointing him to the proper places to search (archives, FAQ, manual) and the manual section where the option(s) is(are) defined for starters? Heck, maybe the Muttrc included in RPMs could pop up a message saying "Don't ask; read first" until the user figures out how to get rid of it, and the Makefile in the tarball could require that one read a similar message before the compile will proceed... I suppose I should stop this before I kill again... HAND :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bigfoot.com/~davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! The "new millennium" starts at the beginning of 2001. There was no year 0. Note: If bigfoot.com gives you fits, try sector13.org in its place. *sigh* PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
UmPardon me for forgettingI didn't even bother to read this mail, but one thing people must keep in mind is that one can forget, and this is the first time I have asked this. I am at work, and don't have much time to read through the mutt manual. Spare criticism and move on with your day On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:08:28PM -0400, David T-G muttered: | Hi, everyone in general -- | | Without going too far into the whole argument of what's intuitive or not | and without condemning too much, I hope, those users who get in our way | and keep us from doing what we should be able to do (read mail and surf | and occasionally fix systems :-) I would say that this *is* becoming a | FAQ and it's because folks aren't reading the docs. |
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Jason, et al -- ...and then Jason Helfman said... % UmPardon me for forgettingI didn't even bother to read this % mail, but one thing people must keep in mind is that one can forget, and Well, that could be part of the problem. I know that the list traffic has gone up recently, but one might perhaps read the whole message before replying to it... % this is the first time I have asked this. I am at work, and don't have % much time to read through the mutt manual. I won't bother to go into searching and other such fun stuff. If you don't have time to read the manual, that's fine; I don't have much time to read it for you, though, and that seems to be the central problem in the noise that's developing. My note wasn't meant as an attack on anyone, but was thrown out in the hopes of coming up with some ideas that will make mutt, designed to be a power-user's mail tool for experts only, a bit more accessable to the new user. % % Spare criticism and move on with your day Sorry for the misunderstanding; I figured the "without condeming too much, I hope" and smiley faces would have taken the sting out of that. % On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:08:28PM -0400, David T-G muttered: % | Hi, everyone in general -- % | See, I'm not even going to knock your quoting style in this note. Whoops :-) :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bigfoot.com/~davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! The "new millennium" starts at the beginning of 2001. There was no year 0. Note: If bigfoot.com gives you fits, try sector13.org in its place. *sigh* PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
David T-G [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: It seems that mutt is cresting one of those points of explosive growth where we see a massive influx of clueless newbies -- perhaps, due to the easy availability of Linux and even other more mainstream *NIX distributions, so new that they don't even know how things work in The Right World (tm) -- and have to deal with a bunch of questions that seem pretty darned dumb even when we look back to the days when we were young and lusers ourselves. Unfortunately, this translates directly into more traffic on the mailing lists that is of fairly low interest to at least the Original Ones; after all, who wants to keep telling people why mutt doesn't talk on port 25 or how to configure pgp or why color works with vim but not mutt or even how to group reply. Note that I'm guilty, in recent times, of some of these questions myself; I'd like to think that I've done my homework and found the documentation confusing or lacking, but it's more probable that I just didn't do my homework, either. The problem, though, is that some of the Original Ones are getting tired of this crap and are unsubscribing or strongly contemplating it. I can hardly blame them; I saw the same decline on the sun-managers list a couple of years ago, and went that route myself. I'm glad someone else is seeing this the same way I am. I'd honestly be off this list long ago except that I'm committed to maintaining the web page and want to make sure I catch patches/etc. to add there. But I spend far too much time deleting stuff I just don't have time to keep up with anymore, which means I probably still miss some things I should be adding. And I'm hardly one of the "Original Ones". I'd wonder how many of them are even left. This list is transitioning, though, from a -users list to a -newbie list, where a few masochistic^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdedicated types answer reams of the same simple, RTFM newbie questions over and over until they burn out, to be replaced with a new bunch of masochists. I know the pattern well enough, I've been that masochist enough times myself. I'd almost suggest a mutt-newbie list, but I hesitate to push anything that'll encourage the idea that mutt is a general purpose client. It really isn't, and I don't think it should be. Different skill levels have different needs -- there's nothing wrong with that. Of course, the dearth of MUAs that don't just suck or make up their own standards as they go makes Mutt one of the only options for people who just want a decent cli client with PGP support, regardless of their "expert" level. Anyway, I'm in no position to speak authoritatively or anything, either -- I just don't want to see this list become so much noise that it stops being worth anything as a serious user list. It seems to me, though I certainly speak not from any position of authority, that we as the mutt community need to come up with some Quick Start and "mutt for the impatient" docs, perhaps along the lines of the proposed "mutt for Attorneys" item mentioned recently, to head off some of the questions but also to come up with some more proactive methods of getting this information out. Without going into a drawn-out call for votes or anything silly like that, what does anyone think about - asking, most very humbly, the doc writers to spend some time on the FAQ or Quick Start, even at the expense of the full documentation, just to round it out and provide something to throw at requesters The only issue with this is that as far as I'm aware there is no such entity as "the doc writers". People that add or change things include doc patches. If they don't, or the docs they give aren't very good, someone else might work on fixing them, if they have time. Regardless, the people who answer the myriad of questions on this list honestly probably understand better than the developers what needs attention. You're all talking about writing this 'quick start' stuff -- do it. Give me a URL, and I'll add it to the web page. If it's kept current and of good quality I'll link it alongside the FAQ and manual on the index page. Really to me it sounds like you're all wanting to basically write an alternate FAQ, which sounds fine to me -- the existing one seems somewhat limited and not entirely current. I at least don't recommend people to it often for general questions that remain after reading the manual and man page, and that's really what a FAQ should be for, isn't it? There are plenty of FAQs that are not in the FAQ, which means they come up on the list again and again. - better promoting the searchable archives and perhaps redesigning the main mutt page to first send folks to answers We need archives that don't suck. Egroups sucks. Mail-archive is better, but pretty basic. Anyone who wants to start a list archive that sucks less, give me a URL so I can link it. Of course any of this assumes people will RTFM/FAQ/archives
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
David T-G [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: ...and then Jason Helfman said... % this is the first time I have asked this. I am at work, and don't have % much time to read through the mutt manual. I won't bother to go into searching and other such fun stuff. If you don't have time to read the manual, that's fine; I don't have much time to read it for you, though, and that seems to be the central problem in the noise that's developing. Exactly. How hard is it to do '?', then '/reply', and you have all the reply methods available highlighted. I wager that takes a good deal less time than composing a list message does. -- Jeremy Blosser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://jblosser.firinn.org/ -+-+-- the crises posed a question / just beneath the skin the virtue in my veins replied / that quitters never win PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Tue, Jun 27, 2000, Jason Helfman wrote: UmPardon me for forgettingI didn't even bother to read this mail, but one thing people must keep in mind is that one can forget, and this is the first time I have asked this. I am at work, and don't have much time to read through the mutt manual. With all do respect, hitting '?' would have given you your answer in less than a minute. -Ken -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]AIM: ScopusFest
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On 2000.06.27 12:08:28, you, the extraordinary David T-G, opined: It seems that mutt is cresting one of those points of explosive growth where we see a massive influx of clueless newbies -- perhaps, due to the easy availability of Linux and even other more mainstream *NIX distributions, so new that they don't even know how things work in The Right World (tm) -- and have to deal with a bunch of questions that seem pretty darned dumb even when we look back to the days when we were young and lusers ourselves. Unfortunately, this translates directly into more traffic on the mailing lists that is of fairly low interest to at least the Original Ones ... [...] The problem, though, is that some of the Original Ones are getting tired of this crap and are unsubscribing or strongly contemplating it. [...] Has this ever been tried for some Cool Software: Create two lists: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] And etiquette requires that if you are fairly newbile you send your question to CoolSoftwareNewbies and wait a reasonable time before construing the absence of answer as an indication that you should send it to CoolSoftwareUsers? Naive, I suppose.. Cheers, N. -- Nollaig MacKenzie :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amhuinnsuidhe.cx
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Jeremy, et al -- ...and then Jeremy Blosser said... % David T-G [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: % It seems that mutt is cresting one of those points of explosive growth % where we see a massive influx of clueless newbies -- perhaps, due to ... % % Unfortunately, this translates directly into more traffic on the mailing ... % the Original Ones are getting tired of this crap and are unsubscribing or % strongly contemplating it. I can hardly blame them; I saw the same % decline on the sun-managers list a couple of years ago, and went that % route myself. % % I'm glad someone else is seeing this the same way I am. I'd honestly be Yeah; you're not crazy. % off this list long ago except that I'm committed to maintaining the web (OK, maybe you're a little crazy :-) % page and want to make sure I catch patches/etc. to add there. But I spend % far too much time deleting stuff I just don't have time to keep up with % anymore, which means I probably still miss some things I should be adding. Ah, well. % % And I'm hardly one of the "Original Ones". I'd wonder how many of them are % even left. Yeah. Of course, by the end of the day I feel like an OOne 'cuz I'm so tired and/or disillusioned, and I only found mutt at 0.88 :-) % % This list is transitioning, though, from a -users list to a -newbie list, ... % well enough, I've been that masochist enough times myself. Yeah. So it seems. % % I'd almost suggest a mutt-newbie list, but I hesitate to push anything % that'll encourage the idea that mutt is a general purpose client. It That, IMHO, is the core of the problem (aside from the fact that people just don't like to read docs). % really isn't, and I don't think it should be. Different skill levels have FWIW, I agree. % different needs -- there's nothing wrong with that. Of course, the dearth % of MUAs that don't just suck or make up their own standards as they go % makes Mutt one of the only options for people who just want a decent cli % client with PGP support, regardless of their "expert" level. Yep. % % Anyway, I'm in no position to speak authoritatively or anything, either -- % I just don't want to see this list become so much noise that it stops being % worth anything as a serious user list. Yep. % %- asking, most very humbly, the doc writers to spend some time on the % FAQ or Quick Start, even at the expense of the full documentation, % just to round it out and provide something to throw at requesters % % The only issue with this is that as far as I'm aware there is no such % entity as "the doc writers". People that add or change things include doc OK; point taken. % patches. If they don't, or the docs they give aren't very good, someone % else might work on fixing them, if they have time. Regardless, the people % who answer the myriad of questions on this list honestly probably % understand better than the developers what needs attention. You're all % talking about writing this 'quick start' stuff -- do it. Give me a URL, Yeah, I know; I have a FAQ entry on my plate that I haven't done :-) % and I'll add it to the web page. If it's kept current and of good quality % I'll link it alongside the FAQ and manual on the index page. Fair enough! % % Really to me it sounds like you're all wanting to basically write an % alternate FAQ, which sounds fine to me -- the existing one seems somewhat ... or perhaps just update or revamp the current one. % %- better promoting the searchable archives and perhaps redesigning the % main mutt page to first send folks to answers % % We need archives that don't suck. Egroups sucks. Mail-archive is better, Yeah. % but pretty basic. Anyone who wants to start a list archive that sucks % less, give me a URL so I can link it. If someone can point me at how to do it, I have the server space to make it happen. I don't have a lot of time, so I'd need some tutoring :-) % % Of course any of this assumes people will RTFM/FAQ/archives at all instead Yeah... % of expecting the list to do it for them. And honestly, people are going to % keep asking the list instead of the manual as long as it gets them answers. That's very true, and that's why I thoght that an automated answering mechanism might work out well. If we know the answers to these questions, it might be nice to fire off a message to a mailbot with a few keywords and let the mailbot do the work of sending the mail with all of the answer places nicely listed and not forgotten, even... % Sometimes a RTFM response, while it may seem rude, can be the best answer % you can give someone because it makes them learn something on their own, % while leaving the list members free to deal with other things, like % improving the manual and dealing with more complicated questions. Teach a % man to fish and all that crap. Yeah. Sometimes that *is* the only way. % % -- % Jeremy Blosser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
At 2:09 PM EDT on June 27 Nollaig MacKenzie sent off: Has this ever been tried for some Cool Software: * see below. Create two lists: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] And etiquette requires that if you are fairly newbile you send your question Newbile? I don't think I was ever newbile... ;-) to CoolSoftwareNewbies and wait a reasonable time before construing the absence of answer as an indication that you should send it to CoolSoftwareUsers? It wouldn't even have to be etiquette; a = 3 day old newbie subscription could be required before being allowed to join the user list. But I don't think we need it. * Yes, sort of, for a certain MUA called mutt, with mutt-users and mutt-dev. After all aren't newbies a subset of users? And although I know mutt is for power users, complete newbies by definition don't. They're offered a choice of mailers as they install their UNIX distribution and what do they know? elm and pine are trees and mutt isn't. As somebody who keeps trying to get his wife to give up her wretched Windoze GUI mailer for mutt, I don't want to chase away the people who get here on their own. But I think we need a netiquette lesson on the web page for subscribing to mutt-users, maybe even with a link to procmail so they can handle the mailing list, and the lesson should also be included in the list subscription confirmation message, before the cookie so that they have to read it. The lesson should include: 1. Try pressing ? in mutt. Right now. Wasn't that great? It gets better. Try / and you'll probably answer your question. (I really think it's much better to tell people this than RTFM. Lusers already know they should RTFM (even if they don't know the acronym) but either figure they can get you to do it or honestly tried and failed to find something that seems intuitive to experts. ? is so fast that they might actually try it, and it should be intuitive enough.) 2. The manual location and a suggestion to grep it. 3. The mailing list archive URLs. 4. An invitation to go ahead and post if 1, 2, and 3 didn't satisfy, with the caveat that such shockingly offensive reasons for not being satisfied by 1, 2, and 3 as "I'm at work, so I don't have time to read the manual myself" are plain and simple flamebait. Or maybe there should be a mutt-newbie RPM that detects any attempt to mail to mutt-users and replaces it with ?/ Somewhere near the end of the resulting page there could be a key sequence for really posting to mutt-users. -- Police, n. An armed force for protection and participation. - A. Bierce Robert I. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://astro.utoronto.ca/~reid/ PGP Key: http://astro.utoronto.ca/~reid/pgp.html
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:08:28PM -0400, David T-G wrote: - Hi, everyone in general -- - - Without going too far into the whole argument of what's intuitive or not - and without condemning too much, I hope, those users who get in our way - and keep us from doing what we should be able to do (read mail and surf - and occasionally fix systems :-) I would say that this *is* becoming a - FAQ and it's because folks aren't reading the docs. The docs are user hostile, and not merely difficult to read. For many people they are impossible to read. They are difficult or impossible to read because 1) they are organized by function name. This is dandy if you have function phoo in front of you and want to know what it does. It is utterly useless if you want to phoo, and don't know that it's called phooing, and the name of the function to do it is phoo. Reason 2) is because it assumes a lot of knowledge on the readers' part. Things like the fact that procmail exists. - - It seems that mutt is cresting one of those points of explosive growth - where we see a massive influx of clueless newbies -- perhaps, due to Clueless newbies indeed -- many if not all are coming to mutt and Linux in general from Windows. Mail on Windows is trivially easy: you fire up Outlook Express, put in a bare minimum of information, and sit back and wait. You get a trojan horse, it eats your hard drive, you install the next version of Windows, and repeat. Real simple. - the easy availability of Linux and even other more mainstream *NIX - distributions, so new that they don't even know how things work in The - Right World (tm) -- and have to deal with a bunch of questions that seem - pretty darned dumb even when we look back to the days when we were young - and lusers ourselves. - - Unfortunately, this translates directly into more traffic on the mailing - lists that is of fairly low interest to at least the Original Ones; after - all, who wants to keep telling people why mutt doesn't talk on port 25 or - how to configure pgp or why color works with vim but not mutt or even how - to group reply. Note that I'm guilty, in recent times, of some of these - questions myself; I'd like to think that I've done my homework and found - the documentation confusing or lacking, but it's more probable that I - just didn't do my homework, either. The problem, though, is that some of - the Original Ones are getting tired of this crap and are unsubscribing or - strongly contemplating it. I can hardly blame them; I saw the same - decline on the sun-managers list a couple of years ago, and went that - route myself. I concur. What we need to do is lower the traffic on this list. - - It seems to me, though I certainly speak not from any position of - authority, that we as the mutt community need to come up with some Quick - Start and "mutt for the impatient" docs, perhaps along the lines of the - proposed "mutt for Attorneys" item mentioned recently, to head off some - of the questions but also to come up with some more proactive methods - of getting this information out. Without going into a drawn-out call - for votes or anything silly like that, what does anyone think about - - - asking, most very humbly, the doc writers to spend some time on the - FAQ or Quick Start, even at the expense of the full documentation, - just to round it out and provide something to throw at requesters This would be good. - - somehow more strongly expecting those who post questions to post - summaries (even if it's a summary of lack of response) This is excellent. As a programmer and technical documentor myself, I can tell you that this is far and away the best thing the neophyte who has a question can do to return value to freeware. - - better promoting the searchable archives and perhaps redesigning the - main mutt page to first send folks to answers Good. - - a mail server (my favorite idea :-) to which folks can forward such - requests that spits out a form letter to the requester pointing him - to the proper places to search (archives, FAQ, manual) and the manual - section where the option(s) is(are) defined You get to write the procmail recipes. :-) It's a good idea but a lot of work. - - for starters? Heck, maybe the Muttrc included in RPMs could pop up a - message saying "Don't ask; read first" until the user figures out how to - get rid of it, and the Makefile in the tarball could require that one - read a similar message before the compile will proceed... This will kill interest in using mutt faster than anything I can think of short of making it an exclusively Windows package. But at least you are thinking of things and tossing them out there for consideration. Good for you. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
Charles, et al -- ...and then Charles Curley said... % On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:08:28PM -0400, David T-G wrote: % - % - and occasionally fix systems :-) I would say that this *is* becoming a % - FAQ and it's because folks aren't reading the docs. % % The docs are user hostile, and not merely difficult to read. For many % people they are impossible to read. OK; I'll accept that. % % They are difficult or impossible to read because 1) they are organized by % function name. This is dandy if you have function phoo in front of you and % want to know what it does. It is utterly useless if you want to phoo, and % don't know that it's called phooing, and the name of the function to do it Well, what about some simple searching through the manual? Admittedly, you have to realize that '/' is the search character, but we do need to draw the tutoring line somewhere :-)/2 IMHO I think that a reference-format manual is great, but that it would be nice to *also* have a procedure-format manual or guide handy. So who wants to write it? :-) % is phoo. Reason 2) is because it assumes a lot of knowledge on the % readers' part. Things like the fact that procmail exists. That's part of the "newbie education" issue, but it could probably be made better. % % - It seems that mutt is cresting one of those points of explosive growth % - where we see a massive influx of clueless newbies -- perhaps, due to % % Clueless newbies indeed -- many if not all are coming to mutt and Linux in % general from Windows. Mail on Windows is trivially easy: you fire up Yep. % Outlook Express, put in a bare minimum of information, and sit back and % wait. You get a trojan horse, it eats your hard drive, you install the % next version of Windows, and repeat. Real simple. *grin* % % - pretty darned dumb even when we look back to the days when we were young % - and lusers ourselves. % - % - Unfortunately, this translates directly into more traffic on the mailing ... % - the Original Ones are getting tired of this crap and are unsubscribing or % - strongly contemplating it. I can hardly blame them; I saw the same % - decline on the sun-managers list a couple of years ago, and went that % - route myself. % % I concur. What we need to do is lower the traffic on this list. Yep. Can we kick off users who ask stupid questions except for me? :-) % % - of getting this information out. Without going into a drawn-out call % - for votes or anything silly like that, what does anyone think about % - % - - asking, most very humbly, the doc writers to spend some time on the % - FAQ or Quick Start, even at the expense of the full documentation, % - just to round it out and provide something to throw at requesters % % This would be good. Yeah. I've since learned that there isn't any sort of "documentation group" for mutt, so we have nobody to ask. Time to call for volunteers, all of whom -- much like me -- will certainly be pressed for time anyway. But it seems to me that that will be the way to go forward. % % % - - somehow more strongly expecting those who post questions to post % - summaries (even if it's a summary of lack of response) % % This is excellent. As a programmer and technical documentor myself, I can % tell you that this is far and away the best thing the neophyte who has a % question can do to return value to freeware. The new mutter (hey, I only *just* got the "... so and so muttered ..." attribution!! :-) is also more likely to be excited about getting so far and happy to chip back in, especially if we can promote summaries as helpful and get them in front of everyone's eyes. % % - - a mail server (my favorite idea :-) to which folks can forward such % - requests that spits out a form letter to the requester pointing him % - to the proper places to search (archives, FAQ, manual) and the manual % - section where the option(s) is(are) defined % % You get to write the procmail recipes. :-) It's a good idea but a lot of work. Actually, I figured it would be a perl bot :-) Yeah, it would be work to do, but fun. Oh, well. % % - message saying "Don't ask; read first" until the user figures out how to % - get rid of it, and the Makefile in the tarball could require that one % - read a similar message before the compile will proceed... % % This will kill interest in using mutt faster than anything I can think of % short of making it an exclusively Windows package. You just might have to work a bit to convince me that this (the former, I mean) is a bad thing. Experts won't mind it, I should think, and let it scare off the newbies until they've learned a bit of *NIX. % % But at least you are thinking of things and tossing them out there for % consideration. Good for you. Thanks :-) % % % -- % % -- C^2 % % No windows were crashed in the making of this email. % % Looking for fine software and/or web pages? % http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley :-D --
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
On Tue, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:09:38PM +, Nollaig MacKenzie wrote: Has this ever been tried for some Cool Software: Create two lists: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] And etiquette requires that if you are fairly newbile you send your question to CoolSoftwareNewbies and wait a reasonable time before construing the absence of answer as an indication that you should send it to CoolSoftwareUsers? Naive, I suppose.. I think this would cause more problems than it solves-- in a way you are encouraging newbies to ask questions rather than read the docs, but beyond that-- this assumes that there are people on the newbie list who know the answers to the questions, but obviously the newbies don't, that's why they're there. Who is going to be the masochist/martyr to subscribe to this list and answer the same stupid questions all the time? rebecca
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
And etiquette requires that if you are fairly newbile you send your question to CoolSoftwareNewbies and wait a reasonable time before construing the absence of answer as an indication that you should send it to CoolSoftwareUsers? Wouldn't they have to read the docs for the lists to get that right? Isn't the difference between a newbie and a user, in this case, whether or not they read the docs before posting? Naive, I suppose.. Looks like the same problem, with one more list for Jeremy to skim to keep the web page current. ;) Brian
Re: those users (was Re: Reply to all???)
There is something similar at www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Mutt-GnuPG-PGP-HOWTO.html It focuses mainly on gpg, pgp and mutt working together but it is an easy read. authority, that we as the mutt community need to come up with some Quick Start and "mutt for the impatient" docs, perhaps along the lines of the proposed "mutt for Attorneys" item mentioned recently, to head off some of the questions but also to come up with some more proactive methods of getting this information out. Without going into a drawn-out call for votes or anything silly like that, what does anyone think about How about mailing once a week all the sites that have info on mutt and where to get them. There has got to be more than just mutt.org 's manual, right? Or maybe someone can create start a weekly tutorial that walks you step-by-step on mutt.For instance you can create a list especially for newbies that mail's the a new lesson every week on mutt. Or host it on a site. I guess I could volunteer to dosomething like that, but I think there is an expert on mutt that would do it.
