[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 9 Feb 2011, at 15:11, Paul Gretton wrote: I would assume that the Reids worked to a chosen pitch standard in the same way as did Silbermann or - more relevant here - the Hotteterre gang. And at least the Hotteterre gang had the sense to pitch their instruments a whole tone below modern pitch, their G being more or less concert F. No NSP's there, but the next best thing. Some delectable 12 keyed musettes. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Tuning/pitch
Francis wood wrote today: There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. Hello Francis, John and others with the stamina to keep reading this, The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. This degree of variation would make it impossible for these sets to span the gulf by pressure adjustment. Add to that the modern trend to play as near to F (A=440) as possible, with the resulting move away from the Reid pattern, and here we find ourselves. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Hi Anthony, Perhaps we should also take reed variations into consideration. Cheers, Richard - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 11:02 AM Subject: [NSP] Tuning/pitch Francis wood wrote today: There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. Hello Francis, John and others with the stamina to keep reading this, The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. This degree of variation would make it impossible for these sets to span the gulf by pressure adjustment. Add to that the modern trend to play as near to F (A=440) as possible, with the resulting move away from the Reid pattern, and here we find ourselves. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
But have they been rereeded (almost certainly) and retuned (quite possibly) since leaving the workshop? Rereeding can account for a semitone, and the tuning could then have been readjusted for consistency once they were flattened. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 09 February 2011 16:02 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Tuning/pitch Francis wood wrote today: There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. Hello Francis, John and others with the stamina to keep reading this, The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. This degree of variation would make it impossible for these sets to span the gulf by pressure adjustment. Add to that the modern trend to play as near to F (A=440) as possible, with the resulting move away from the Reid pattern, and here we find ourselves. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 9 Feb 2011, Anthony Robb wrote: The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. We know that Billy was in the habit of making his reeds as sharp as possible -and not just so that he could get over the John Doonan problem but all the time - he liked them that way, apparently. Annie Snaith played in F# to accompany him, she said. He learnt to make reeds from George Storey who learnt from Richard Mowat who learnt from...? (Obviously with influence from other players but that's the basic chain) 10-12 of us, on an assortment of modern makers' pipes (5, I think, but at least 4) happily played along with Andrew on Monday without much perceptible difficulty. I didn't have a tuner out but my ears would tell me we were certainly no sharper than F+20, and probably a bit shy of that. Add to that the modern trend to play as near to F (A=440) as possible, eh? Not on my watch! Based on the meetings I go to I would have said F=20 to F+ 30 was about the norm, varying a bit depending on the season, the venue temperature, the degree of exciting-ness, the amount of alcohol consumed etc etc Concert F and below I reserve for the top of the Wannies and suchlike Arctic locations. It was E one year with the windchill. I've had my wrist slapped on reaching F+40/50, but that's where I want to play if I can. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. Are the Reid ones not in CB (don't have it to hand)? We also have Clough figures, there are Hedworth ones and I'm sure I've seen comparison charts of this kind in at least two locations in the past few years. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
As for the Reids' hole spacings, Dr. Wells is probably better placed than anyone to answer, having looked at most of the survivors. He might also know which ones look to have the original hole spacings and which show signs of subsequent work? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 09 February 2011 16:42 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch On 9 Feb 2011, Anthony Robb wrote: The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. We know that Billy was in the habit of making his reeds as sharp as possible -and not just so that he could get over the John Doonan problem but all the time - he liked them that way, apparently. Annie Snaith played in F# to accompany him, she said. He learnt to make reeds from George Storey who learnt from Richard Mowat who learnt from...? (Obviously with influence from other players but that's the basic chain) 10-12 of us, on an assortment of modern makers' pipes (5, I think, but at least 4) happily played along with Andrew on Monday without much perceptible difficulty. I didn't have a tuner out but my ears would tell me we were certainly no sharper than F+20, and probably a bit shy of that. Add to that the modern trend to play as near to F (A=440) as possible, eh? Not on my watch! Based on the meetings I go to I would have said F=20 to F+ 30 was about the norm, varying a bit depending on the season, the venue temperature, the degree of exciting-ness, the amount of alcohol consumed etc etc Concert F and below I reserve for the top of the Wannies and suchlike Arctic locations. It was E one year with the windchill. I've had my wrist slapped on reaching F+40/50, but that's where I want to play if I can. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. Are the Reid ones not in CB (don't have it to hand)? We also have Clough figures, there are Hedworth ones and I'm sure I've seen comparison charts of this kind in at least two locations in the past few years. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
The original question I posed was more a rhetorical one. The point being that, until the invention of the tuning fork, there was no set or standard pitch as such. Only the sound of other instruments - hence the plethora of tuning methods to ensure everyone played the same (or as near as possible). Obviously better to tune to an instrument either to a well known one (such as the town organ) or one that couldn't be altered (as in the principal of a tuning fork as it comes from the maker and before anyone files a bit off because it's sharp etc). We are lucky now because we have the technology to set, say, A=440 and make comparisons for tuning, our forbears were not so lucky. The reason they traditionally/originally tune to the oboe A, of course. I wonder how many orchestras tuned to an Oboe that was several cents out? Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com To: 'Colin' cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 7:20 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch In a large number of cities, the tuning standard was taken from the organ (specifically the flue pipes) in the church, the cathedral, or the local ruler's chapel. That pitch in turn tended to be determined by the particular organ-builder - say Silbermann - who transported his preferred pitch from one commission to another. Until well into the 19th century, there was an incredible mish-mash of different pitches from one town/city to the other. (And even within a particular city too - Bach complained of the varying pitches of the organs in Leipzig.) This was not a terrible problem for string players but it certainly was for wind players. Brass players, for example, had to travel equipped with a whole series of bits for fine tuning because until the 19th century brass instruments didn't have tuning slides. Flutes had to have corps de rechange - alternative middle sections of slightly differing lengths and hole placements for tuning to different pitch standards. So in fact the variety of pitches for the NSP is extremely traditional! Two hundred years ago it wouldn't have been thought in any way remarkable. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Colin Sent: 09 February 2011 01:37 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch Which were tuned with reference to.. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com To: cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:27 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch Before the tuning fork was invented, there were pitch pipes. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 9 Feb 2011, at 16:02, Anthony Robb wrote: Hello Francis, John and others with the stamina to keep reading this, The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. Hello Anthony and others, Well, not quite as far as the Andrew Davison set is concerned. What Julia said was that when a reed was first put in the chanter it was said to have played at F+20. I took that to be an interesting and amusing anecdote without any specific conclusions to be drawn from it [is that correct, Julia?] Incidentally, the owner of that set is admiring and appreciative of the work done by the expert fettler who did the best possible job. However, he acknowledges that the performance at F+20 of that historic set is not ideal at the present pitch which is (if other Reid chanters are taken as valid examples) very far from that originally intended. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. I have recorded hole positions from several Reid chanters. This is easier than one might suppose because although hole sizes have wandered over the years, their original position is usually indicated very clearly on the opposite wall of the bore where the Reid drill made contact. It's evident that Reid revised some of his hole positions - a normal and sensible thing for any woodwind maker. As you would expect, the Reid scale is shorter, as you would expect from a higher pitched instrument. Julia is right to point out that Reid hole positions are provided (very accurately) in Cocks Bryan. Ross/Nelson figures are not identical and I believe Colin's pattern also shows some evolution, as one would expect. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
(for anyone puzzled by this discussion, one cent is 1/00 th of a semitone. So 20 cents is 1/10th of a whole tone, or 1/10th of the difference between C and D.That's not a subtle difference, of course!) On 7 Feb 2011, at 17:26, Julia Say wrote: Shortly after Andrew Davison took over the 17 key R. Reid set he now plays (which apparently is c. 1836) the fettler who helped him set it up remarked to me that they first, without altering *anything* put in a reed - design unspecified - and Andrew played it. The resulting pitch, without any work, oddities or messing on, was F + 20. Hello Julia and others, Well, that's an interesting and fortunate anecdote, but are you suggesting that it's anything more than amusing coincidence? I have no problem over the large number of pipes being pitched at F+20 cents. I can happily play on a concert F set for a whole evening with a roomful of pipers playing at variously F+20, F+ 35 and F + whatever, though I must admit the bag arm gets a little tired with the extra squeezing, and it does no favours to tone or intonation. People should be at liberty to play at whatever pitch they like, provided that they and fellow players don't mind the musical consequences. What worries me is the notion often put forward on this forum that F+20 cents is a 'standard' pitch for pipes. It isn't a standard: it's a current tendency, and nobody can accurately predict how long this will last. My instinct - and it's no more than that, though based on precedents in woodwind history - is that pitch will revert a more widely accepted standard, i.e concert pitch. The good news there is that there may well be plenty of remunerative work for the pipe fettlers of the future in converting chanters to F concert! Playing music is primarily a sociable activity and there seems to be little point in encouraging an NSP 'sharp-F ghetto' where players can only play comfortably with their own kind. For that reason, I think that anyone considering buying and learning pipes should consider whether they intend to play primarily with other instruments or just with with pipes . If pipe-makers are offering to provide pipes set up in these alternative pitches, they should make themselves known. Your narrative of the way the present situation came about is a good and accurate account, I think. what is notable is that historically, each step along this path towards F + 20 has been for some negative reason and not because of some advantage of musicality or encouraging our pipes to play a part in any wider musical context. I have no axe to grind over F+20 Cents or F concert. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice. What I do think, however is that there should actually *be* a choice! Cheers, Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Absolutely Francis, music is a sociable activity, I also think the idea is take your pipes out of the box and be able to muck in with any other type of instrument. I may be considered different but I like the idea of just saying - yep it's a Bb transposing, so treat it like a clarinet. I therefore set up for A=440( as close as is possible) and like the way it sounds. As for re-reeded pipes that get modded at the top end -- that would be a staple conicity variation, thus not just the old reed that was in it, it has to be the original makers staple -- Dave S On 2/9/2011 7:17 PM, Francis Wood wrote: Playing music is primarily a sociable activity and there seems to be little point in encouraging an NSP 'sharp-F ghetto' where players can only play comfortably with their own kind. For that reason, I think that anyone considering buying and learning pipes should consider whether they intend to play primarily with other instruments or just with with pipes . If pipe-makers are offering to provide pipes set up in these alternative pitches, they should make themselves known. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 9 Feb 2011, Francis Wood wrote: What Julia said was that when a reed was first put in the chanter it was said to have played at F+20. I took that to be an interesting and amusing anecdote without any specific conclusions to be drawn from it [is that correct, Julia?] When I was told it, it was with a little surprise, I think - they had perhaps expected it to be sharper. That it played in easily with other pipers was felt to be an immediate bonus. However, he acknowledges that the performance at F+20 of that historic set is not ideal at the present pitch My understanding is that they both regard it as a work in progress. It sounds very agreeable, although Andrew remarked that they are not yet happy with it. He played a solo set and then folk got a chance to look at it. If he is compensating for non-ideal tuning then it is certainly not obvious from his playing that anything is amiss. I find my own (modern made) ivory set has a more brilliant tone than the equivalent in wood, even using the same reed. If I were to nit-pick on Monday's playing, I would say I would be interested to see if the fettling team can coax a bit more brilliance from it, but maybe this is not what Andrew is looking for. I have recorded hole positions from several Reid chanters. their original position is usually indicated very clearly on the opposite wall of the bore where the Reid drill made contact. This can also be seen on some modern sets (various makers), although I have been taught to put a rod down the bore before drilling to prevent it happening! (And had the bore inspected closely to check I'd done so!) Sets have been observed where the maker has absent-mindedly drilled right through the far side, I believe.
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
- Original Message - From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk This can also be seen on some modern sets (various makers), although I have been taught to put a rod down the bore before drilling to prevent it happening! (And had the bore inspected closely to check I'd done so!) Sets have been observed where the maker has absent-mindedly drilled right through the far side, I believe. Whereas I can't claim NEVER to have touched the far side of the bore (a good tune title?) I'll just say that with care, a flat-ended drill and delicacy of touch, there should be no need for rods down the bore. You just stop the drill before it goes too deep! Answering Colin's earlier post: until the invention of the tuning fork, there was no set or standard pitch as such. In fact, according to the latest research (Bruce Haynes' fairly definitive book The story of A - a history of performing pitch) even in the late 16th/early 17th century there were three main standardised pitches generally recognised across Europe, and the fact that there were only a few centres where the best wind instruments were made helped to determine this - but it's a complex subject, best summed up in the biblical quotation He that toucheth pitch shall be defiled therewith. Very interesting discussion though. Thanks for all the contributions. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Pitch
Hello Folks * Yes, reeds make a huge difference. In general I use different reed patterns to converge pitch, that's why I have 4 different patterns just for 'F' chanters. * When I referred to a modern trend towards concert F (A=440) I did not for a millisecond mean to imply it was a universal trend. I was actually thinking of the Cut Dry Dolly album where we needed pipes in concert F to play with Alistair Anderson's concertina. This seemed to start something and this very evening I played for over 2 hours in F with Sylviane Bartowiak (concertina player and regular Cleveland Branch attender). It is modern in the sense that it wasn't something the Reids needed to consider. * I totally agree, this music is primarily social. That's why I have three different 'F' chanters to play comfortably in various situations. As Francis rightly points out this is not essential but it does make the music-making a joy rather than an acievement. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
That's very interesting. I still have to ask though (and it IS a genuine question) - how did they tune to those standard pitches? Did a clarinet maker in the area say I'll make my clarinet to be in tune to Fred's serpent, he make's good ones? Most standards are set in various ways (like a size being the length of the King's foot or similar) and then having something made to check everything else again (like the standard measures held in the Jewel Tower) and all other measures are compared against this to ensure uniformity. I suppose it would have to be something untunable - like a cast bell (yes, I know they can be tuned ) from which the idea of a tuning fork originated (rather than the idea of the city organ which had to be tuned to something in the first place). Unlike pitch pipes, a tuning fork is pretty well stable (reeds in pitch pipes can go out of tune over time). As establishing frequencies was yet to come, I keep wondering what the instrument makers tuned to. Maybe one maker made all the instruments in a band or got together with other makers so they played in tune with each other. A bit of a chicken and egg situation. I'll stop asking questions. I'll find a copy of that book and read it. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net To: julia@nspipes.co.uk; Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 11:29 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch - Original Message - From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk This can also be seen on some modern sets (various makers), although I have been taught to put a rod down the bore before drilling to prevent it happening! (And had the bore inspected closely to check I'd done so!) Sets have been observed where the maker has absent-mindedly drilled right through the far side, I believe. Whereas I can't claim NEVER to have touched the far side of the bore (a good tune title?) I'll just say that with care, a flat-ended drill and delicacy of touch, there should be no need for rods down the bore. You just stop the drill before it goes too deep! Answering Colin's earlier post: until the invention of the tuning fork, there was no set or standard pitch as such. In fact, according to the latest research (Bruce Haynes' fairly definitive book The story of A - a history of performing pitch) even in the late 16th/early 17th century there were three main standardised pitches generally recognised across Europe, and the fact that there were only a few centres where the best wind instruments were made helped to determine this - but it's a complex subject, best summed up in the biblical quotation He that toucheth pitch shall be defiled therewith. Very interesting discussion though. Thanks for all the contributions. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Started Wikipedia article F+ (pitch)
Given that the vagaries of NSP tuning take some explaining, and are briefly mentioned in the NSP article on Wikipedia, I turned the term F+ into a wikilink and started a new article for it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%2B_%28pitch%29 If anyone has any _footnoted_ material they'd like to add, from a reputable published source or musical journal, it'd be good to flesh it out a little bit. I just ask that we try to footnote data vice putting in personal knowledge; the goal is to compile existing published info vice our own research (though in fairness plenty of folks on this list know as much as anyone can on the subject). To add a footnote on wiki you just type your citation between the terms ref and /ref and it will automatically number itself and list itself at the bottom of the page. Any particular heartburn with the title? F+ seems to be as close to a standard way to say a little sharp of modern Concert F as NSP tend to be as there is. And though I realise 20c isn't a rock-solid standard, it does seem to be a common working number. Thanks for any edits or suggestions. -Matthew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Equal temperament of course has its place as does chromaticism, but I think except for keyboard-players, who can't (unless they have split-key harpsichords or such like), even when playing highly chromatic music the best musicians constantly tweak their tuning to produce the most harmonious result - even in atonal 20th century music. I haven't got an oscilloscope, nor do I know how to use one, but I think a scientific analysis would demonstrate that top musicians use more than twelve different pitches even in twelve tone music. Certainly, music in awkward keys, such as C major, requires violinists etc. to make comma adjustments all over the place depending on which open string is most prominent at the time - even in diatonic music. Too many evens ;-) C Equal temperament (= 1/12 comma meantone) is a microtonal system par excellence (depending on your starting point of course. Mine is just intonation, with 8 pitches to the diatonic octave). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning
Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed prefer that key. Yes, it would be horribly high in A min unless you were a natural light tenor. And finally, as an instrumental it makes a loamishly lovely springboard to dive into P B's P. I don't know PBP but BAM sounds wonderful at the deeper pitch (and I have got F nats). C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning
I set my Korg DA 30 to 446 using the calibration button and take it Sorry to be a nuisance (again!), but what note on the chanter do you tune for zero deviation of the needle? The (nominal) G or the (nominal) B? (or other?) Thanks CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:06 AM, [1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed prefer that key. Yes, it would be horribly high in A min unless you were a natural light tenor. Fair enough. George Welch sings it in B minor - [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA and Judy Dinning sings it in A minor. As a non-NSP player I had assumed that it would feel more at home on the un-keyed notes. Robert Bewick has it in A minor in a setting which has high a and omits f. -- References 1. mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bonny at Morn
I think of the simpler Bewick and the more ornate NM version together as the germ of a short variation set. But they would need some tweaking to fit - the NM version is certainly not hexatonic. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 08 February 2011 16:12 To: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Cc: anth...@robbpipes.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:06 AM, [1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed prefer that key. Yes, it would be horribly high in A min unless you were a natural light tenor. Fair enough. George Welch sings it in B minor - [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA and Judy Dinning sings it in A minor. As a non-NSP player I had assumed that it would feel more at home on the un-keyed notes. Robert Bewick has it in A minor in a setting which has high a and omits f. -- References 1. mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Good points. I suppose as the pipes are essentially a solo instrument, it wouldn't matter what note they sounded provided the things were in tune with themselves. That's essentially true for many rural instruments (I remember making penny whistles from elder wood as a child and goodness knows what key they were in as it depended on the size of the branches I cut) I suppose. It's only when two or more get together that differences would show up. Big difference when any form of mass production came in and everything was made to the one set of plans. Do the older instruments that still exist show this or not? On a similar vein, what did people tune things to (prior to the invention of the tuning for in 1711). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:08 AM Subject: [NSP] Tuning/pitch On 7^th Feb Colin Hill wrote: What I can never understand is WHY the pitch changes. Thanks Paul (Gretton) for a full entertaining reply from an orchestral point of view. From the point of view of pipes we need to remember that in the 20^th century professional Northumbrian pipe makers only came in around 1973/4. Before that David Burleigh was still stuffing animals at the Hancock museum and Colin Ross was a lecturer in sculpture/fine art. When, in 1967, I first asked about getting a set for myself every reply was based on the same advice, 'find some lignum vitae mangle rollers and make your own'. Occasionally it was 'find some ebony ledger rulers and make your own'. I would guess that well over 50 people took this advice and made sets at night classes following (more or less) the plans in the Cocks Bryan book. The result is that there are a fair few sets around which are (to put it kindly) approximations to the plans but many people still stick with these sets they or friends have made because they are dear to them. I have 8 F chanters here at the moment. 4 by professional makers have dimensions hole spacings with 1mm of each other so could be regarded as standardised, but the 4 garden shed examples vary by up to 5mm over the single octave G to g spacings. I well understand the frustrations caused by the variations in pipes pitch but I suspect the same is true wherever there has been a living tradition of people making their own instruments on which to play their own music. It seems to me that any change towards full standardization to say concert F pitch could only come about by destroying 80% or more of instruments in existence (perish the thought!). Perhaps we just need to accept the situation as it is and make the best of it. To be honest I find it all rather wonderful and challenging. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Which were tuned with reference to.. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com To: cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:27 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch Before the tuning fork was invented, there were pitch pipes. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
In a large number of cities, the tuning standard was taken from the organ (specifically the flue pipes) in the church, the cathedral, or the local ruler's chapel. That pitch in turn tended to be determined by the particular organ-builder - say Silbermann - who transported his preferred pitch from one commission to another. Until well into the 19th century, there was an incredible mish-mash of different pitches from one town/city to the other. (And even within a particular city too - Bach complained of the varying pitches of the organs in Leipzig.) This was not a terrible problem for string players but it certainly was for wind players. Brass players, for example, had to travel equipped with a whole series of bits for fine tuning because until the 19th century brass instruments didn't have tuning slides. Flutes had to have corps de rechange - alternative middle sections of slightly differing lengths and hole placements for tuning to different pitch standards. So in fact the variety of pitches for the NSP is extremely traditional! Two hundred years ago it wouldn't have been thought in any way remarkable. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Colin Sent: 09 February 2011 01:37 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch Which were tuned with reference to.. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com To: cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:27 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch Before the tuning fork was invented, there were pitch pipes. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Chanter Tuning
I don't know exactly how flat A = 398 is but it can't be very far off F+, given that A = 392 would correspond to concert G. I wonder if Anthony would agree therefore that since lots of the notes are sharp, a good starting point would be to pull the reed out a fraction? C -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:56 PM To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Chanter Tuning From Chris Gregg: So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was just poor musicianship on my part! The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it in recording sessions. Hello Chris This sounds to me as though your bottom G is a tad flat and that's why so many notes seem sharp. The other thing to say is that the chanter, in all likelihood, could be brought in tune with careful use of PVA glue (for sharp notes) and a scalpel fitted with an 11P blade (for flat notes). Before doing anything drastic, however, I would get to know your chanter's idiosyncrasies by removing the cotton wool plug, if there is one, from the bottom of the bore. Then I'd repeat your measurements (draw up a table) with a cotton bud inserted at set positions into the bore. I'd start off with the rounded tip in at 10mm then go up by 5mm increments to within 15mm of your bottom D (for a 7 key chanter) checking the tuning of each note as you go. Write down your results so the pattern can be seen at a glance. This will tell you how much effect the standing waves below each chanter note are affecting the pitch of each note. You might find one position will bring your chanter closer in tune with itself. If the cotton bud makes matters worse I'd insert a 20mm narrow cone of cotton wool (point first) into the chanter and see if that helps. If you do need to resort to scalpel glue I'd do this with the cotton wool cone to minimise standing waves interfering with your tuning. Let me know how you get on. With regards to recording sessions every group of pipers of pipers will have their own solution. As you say solo is fine as the piper can adjust where necessary. At the other end of the scale massed pipes are OK too because variations with 5 chanters or more tend to balance out. The trickiest we find is when 3 pipes are playing together. We found that recording the three chanters together without drones (live or recorded) works best as each of us listens out for what is happening with the other players and adjusts where necessary. Then drones are tuned to the chanters and added to the mix. This can mean up to 11.5 mins of constant drone without fingering the chanter at all which is surprisingly tiring on the fingers. It also means that chanters have to be played at a fairly consistent pitch and in with each other without any external reference point at all. But then as we can see from the recent posts external references are often a hindrance rather that a help in that situation. I hope some of this helps but please remember no theories whatsoever have been used as a basis for this advice just 40 years mucking about with some of the loveliest chanters around (Burleigh, Gruar, Hedworth, Nelson and Ross) and nowt but my own lugs as final arbiter. Good Luck Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Chanter Tuning
I don't know exactly how flat A = 398 is but it can't be very far off F+, Sorry, badly worded. I mean it can't be very far off an A that would give you F+. c given that A = 392 would correspond to concert G. I wonder if Anthony would agree therefore that since lots of the notes are sharp, a good starting point would be to pull the reed out a fraction? C -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:56 PM To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Chanter Tuning From Chris Gregg: So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was just poor musicianship on my part! The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it in recording sessions. Hello Chris This sounds to me as though your bottom G is a tad flat and that's why so many notes seem sharp. The other thing to say is that the chanter, in all likelihood, could be brought in tune with careful use of PVA glue (for sharp notes) and a scalpel fitted with an 11P blade (for flat notes). Before doing anything drastic, however, I would get to know your chanter's idiosyncrasies by removing the cotton wool plug, if there is one, from the bottom of the bore. Then I'd repeat your measurements (draw up a table) with a cotton bud inserted at set positions into the bore. I'd start off with the rounded tip in at 10mm then go up by 5mm increments to within 15mm of your bottom D (for a 7 key chanter) checking the tuning of each note as you go. Write down your results so the pattern can be seen at a glance. This will tell you how much effect the standing waves below each chanter note are affecting the pitch of each note. You might find one position will bring your chanter closer in tune with itself. If the cotton bud makes matters worse I'd insert a 20mm narrow cone of cotton wool (point first) into the chanter and see if that helps. If you do need to resort to scalpel glue I'd do this with the cotton wool cone to minimise standing waves interfering with your tuning. Let me know how you get on. With regards to recording sessions every group of pipers of pipers will have their own solution. As you say solo is fine as the piper can adjust where necessary. At the other end of the scale massed pipes are OK too because variations with 5 chanters or more tend to balance out. The trickiest we find is when 3 pipes are playing together. We found that recording the three chanters together without drones (live or recorded) works best as each of us listens out for what is happening with the other players and adjusts where necessary. Then drones are tuned to the chanters and added to the mix. This can mean up to 11.5 mins of constant drone without fingering the chanter at all which is surprisingly tiring on the fingers. It also means that chanters have to be played at a fairly consistent pitch and in with each other without any external reference point at all. But then as we can see from the recent posts external references are often a hindrance rather that a help in that situation. I hope some of this helps but please remember no theories whatsoever have been used as a basis for this advice just 40 years mucking about with some of the loveliest chanters around (Burleigh, Gruar, Hedworth, Nelson and Ross) and nowt but my own lugs as final arbiter. Good Luck Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Can one maker (which one?) have that much influence? Possibly, I think. I didn't have a specific one in mind as I was primarily speculating on the process (that's why I wrote a maker rather than one maker, but didn't CR fairly recently mention someone down the road making lots and lots of pipes in F+? I was told 20 cents sharp of F is the tradition. I've heard variously about 20 and between 10 and 20 (and occasionally 25) I tune my chanter manipulating the reed depending on the season and the reed, trying to get the best balance up and down the chanter, regardless of how many cents I'm off from F. Of course, this creates problems when playing with other pipers. But I reckon, at least I'm blowing steady and I'm in tune with myself. This is probably the best approach unless you regularly play with others or a band the more keys you want to play in, then the more compromises you have to make in tuning individual notes? This is inevitable. It's why the concept of temperament originated in the first place. Even D poses problems where the E is concerned (so does G for that matter!) and the B is also problematic in A minor. To play in pure Em one might have to order a chanter to play specifically in Em. In an ideal world, yes! CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Chanter tuning
Christopher Birch wrote recently: I don't know exactly how flat A = 398 is but it can't be very far off F+, given that A = 392 would correspond to concert G. I wonder if Anthony would agree therefore that since lots of the notes are sharp, a good starting point would be to pull the reed out a fraction? C Hello Chris F+ is a variable thing but 90% of pipers seem to blend their pipes failry pleasantly at A=446. This is 8 Hz sharper than the chanter in question so I'd be disinclined to pull the reed out as a first step, especially as the chanter has a top B which is already 25 cents flat. I'd be interested to see the results of the cotton bud plunger trials before changing anything to do with the set up. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
A compromise might be a pair of e's, one a true 6th above G, for playing in G; another - a perfect fourth above the B, and keyed, for playing in E minor. The low E might be harder to arrange practically, but may not be as critical acoustically?? As the most prolific and also one of the best pipemakers both produce in F+, and most others too, I don't see much benefit in arguing who's to blame for the emergence of this de facto standard. From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 07 February 2011 09:56 To: dir...@gmail.com Cc: bri...@aol.com; chrisdgr...@gmail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships Can one maker (which one?) have that much influence? Possibly, I think. I didn't have a specific one in mind as I was primarily speculating on the process (that's why I wrote a maker rather than one maker, but didn't CR fairly recently mention someone down the road making lots and lots of pipes in F+? I was told 20 cents sharp of F is the tradition. I've heard variously about 20 and between 10 and 20 (and occasionally 25) I tune my chanter manipulating the reed depending on the season and the reed, trying to get the best balance up and down the chanter, regardless of how many cents I'm off from F. Of course, this creates problems when playing with other pipers. But I reckon, at least I'm blowing steady and I'm in tune with myself. This is probably the best approach unless you regularly play with others or a band the more keys you want to play in, then the more compromises you have to make in tuning individual notes? This is inevitable. It's why the concept of temperament originated in the first place. Even D poses problems where the E is concerned (so does G for that matter!) and the B is also problematic in A minor. To play in pure Em one might have to order a chanter to play specifically in Em. In an ideal world, yes! CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Chanter tuning
blend their pipes failry pleasantly at A=446. Do you mean tuning your nominal G to the F you get on an equal temperament tuner if you set it to A = 446? Or do you mean tuning the nominal B to 446? These two possibilities would yield different results. (a higher nominal G in the second case). This is 8 Hz sharper than the chanter in question If you mean the first possibility, the nominal bottom G on this chanter would be somewhere around concert pitch (maybe it was intended to be. Do we know the maker, or what the customer requested. especially as the chanter has a top B which is already 25 cents flat. I'd be interested to see the results of the cotton bud plunger trials before changing anything to do with the set up. I'm sure you're correct, but it sounds as though the top B definitely needs attention. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
A compromise might be a pair of e's, one a true 6th above G, for playing in G; another - a perfect fourth above the B, and keyed, for playing in E minor. Yes, this is what I meant by 8 (different) notes to the octave rather than just seven. The lower, keyed, high E would also sound better when the melody emphasised the third C-E (Chevy Chase is a very obvious and simple example). The low E might be harder to arrange practically, but may not be as critical acoustically?? My own chanter has the low E an appreciable bit more than an octave lower than the top E, so I can get away with an E-B drone quite effectively. In other keys it is indeed not as critical acoustically. Meanwhile the top E (which I think is in a compromise position) can be bag-tweaked up or down to suit the circumstances. As the most prolific and also one of the best pipemakers both produce in F+, and most others too, I don't see much benefit in arguing who's to blame for the emergence of this de facto standard. Please don't misunderstand me. I was not seeking to apportion blame; just speculating as to the mechanism whereby this standard came about. C I've heard variously about 20 and between 10 and 20 (and occasionally 25) I tune my chanter manipulating the reed depending on the season and the reed, trying to get the best balance up and down the chanter, regardless of how many cents I'm off from F. Of course, this creates problems when playing with other pipers. But I reckon, at least I'm blowing steady and I'm in tune with myself. This is probably the best approach unless you regularly play with others or a band the more keys you want to play in, then the more compromises you have to make in tuning individual notes? This is inevitable. It's why the concept of temperament originated in the first place. Even D poses problems where the E is concerned (so does G for that matter!) and the B is also problematic in A minor. To play in pure Em one might have to order a chanter to play specifically in Em. In an ideal world, yes! CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
And I've been telling people it is because all notes have got gradually sharper over the last 150 years, and that the Reid 'ur-pipes' were made when G was somewhere between where F and G are now. Have I been wrong all this time? This is probably an associated factor. My speculation about the 440 tuning fork more concerned modern pipes (which are inevitably in the majority) manufactured after the introduction of 440 as an international standard (though many windplayers and hence orchestras incline to 442 (or even 443) nowadays). C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Reid pipes were generally made sharper than the current F+; close to modern F# in many cases, so Francis and Graham tell me. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dru Brooke-Taylor Sent: 07 February 2011 11:39 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships On 7 Feb 2011, at 11:21, Gibbons, John wrote: A compromise might be a pair of e's, one a true 6th above G, for playing in G; another - a perfect fourth above the B, and keyed, for playing in E minor. The low E might be harder to arrange practically, but may not be as critical acoustically?? As the most prolific and also one of the best pipemakers both produce in F+, and most others too, I don't see much benefit in arguing who's to blame for the emergence of this de facto standard. CB And I've been telling people it is because all notes have got gradually sharper over the last 150 years, and that the Reid 'ur-pipes' were made when G was somewhere between where F and G are now. Have I been wrong all this time? Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
It always fascinates me how the tuning of things changes (I have a concertina in high pitch). For those (like me) not well versed in the mechanics and theory of things, this makes good reading: http://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html (and also which locations not to attempt to play the pipes with the instruments noted). What I can never understand is WHY the pitch changes. Imagine if they did that with yards etc (change to metric notwithstanding) or liquid measure (I asked for a pint, what's this? - Oh the pint has been getting smaller over the years..). A standard should be just that - a standard. If it changes, it ain't standard! Good interesting thread though. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu To: drubrooketay...@btinternet.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships And I've been telling people it is because all notes have got gradually sharper over the last 150 years, and that the Reid 'ur-pipes' were made when G was somewhere between where F and G are now. Have I been wrong all this time? This is probably an associated factor. My speculation about the 440 tuning fork more concerned modern pipes (which are inevitably in the majority) manufactured after the introduction of 440 as an international standard (though many windplayers and hence orchestras incline to 442 (or even 443) nowadays). C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Tuning
Chris, John, Dru others In no particular order: * I set my Korg DA 30 to 446 using the calibration button and take it from there * I've got a chanter in for overhaul at the moment and have just seen the top B rise in pitch bt 20 cents by moving a plunger in from 10mm to 25mm * My solo pipes are happy playing at 458 which is well on the way to F# but when I do Em tunes I tune drones to a reasonably happy compromise between fingered B and bottom E. To keep in acceptable tune with these drones I find I am playing at 454. I keep it all as relaxed as possible and Bonny at Morn, Peter Bailey's Pig etc sound good to my ears. * When I retune my small D drone from the 5th its G drones postion to the tonic for D tunes I find that it needs sharpening a tad for tunes like Flowers of the Forest Top It Off but flattening a tad for softer tunes like Water of Tyne March of the King of Laoise. I don't necessarily advise this as a general principle but for me it works in these differing situations where the nature of the tune being played asks for a different amount of attack. Can I add that these adjustments/observations hold true well after my pipes are well settled down, have had a good 30min play in and reached that alive, buzzing and and up for anything stage beneath the fingers. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
On 7 Feb 2011, at 13:03, Gibbons, John wrote: Reid pipes were generally made sharper than the current F+; close to modern F# in many cases, so Francis and Graham tell me. Yes, that's right. Or to be more precise, Reid pipes play most happily at F# using (and insert italics here) the most appropriate dimensions of the modern reed which may well be pretty different from the kind of reed that Reid intended (conclude italics and insert exclamation marks). F# is a lovely pitch, enhancing the staccato capabilities of the chanter without encountering the compromises in terms of hole spacing, comfort and tone evident in many G chanters. F and G both have the advantage of convenience since they're both standard pitches - even if you do derive them them from the equally tempered A=440 scale and then proceed to play a non-equally tempered scale! Both have the advantage that they are sociable pitches in that they can be played with fixed pitch instruments, concertinas for example. As for F + 20, its use is unknown in the rest of the civilised world. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
'It does have the unintended consequence of keeping off the fixed pitch instruments, which may or may not be an advantage, according respectively to taste or the lack of it.' Discuss... -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 07 February 2011 17:26 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Francis Wood Cc: 'Dru Brooke-Taylor'; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships On 7 Feb 2011, Francis Wood wrote: Yes, that's right. Or to be more precise, Reid pipes play most happily at F# using (and insert italics here) the most appropriate dimensions of the modern reed which may well be pretty different from the kind of reed that Reid intended (conclude italics and insert exclamation marks). in response to: On 7 Feb 2011, at 13:03, Gibbons, John wrote: Reid pipes were generally made sharper than the current F+; close to modern F# in many cases, so Francis and Graham tell me. Shortly after Andrew Davison took over the 17 key R. Reid set he now plays (which apparently is c. 1836) the fettler who helped him set it up remarked to me that they first, without altering *anything* put in a reed - design unspecified - and Andrew played it. The resulting pitch, without any work, oddities or messing on, was F + 20. The entire 170+ year service history of the set is not known, so of course it may have been attended to many years ago. and Francis continued: F# is a lovely pitch, enhancing the staccato capabilities of the chanter without encountering the compromises in terms of hole spacing, comfort and tone evident in many G chanters. I totally agree. F and G both have the advantage of convenience since they're both standard pitches ..Both have the advantage that they are sociable pitches in that they can be played with fixed pitch instruments, concertinas for example. As for F + 20, its use is unknown in the rest of the civilised world. My understanding of the compromises by which this was reached is that until about the 1960s, very few players could play together as the pitch was all over the shop. There were one or two exceptions, but near enough for a generalisation. As more players started, it became apparent that this variation was becoming a major issue. An attempt was made to standardise on concert F by one prominent maker, but this was rendered impractical by the output of another which varied from just sharp of concert F to almost F#. With the reeds mostly in use at this time (60s/70s) attempts to drop to concert F when in groups were not successful, and the F+20 pitch was a necessary compromise which could be reached by most players. Checking the pressure and pitch of a roomful of players determined that most, then, were playing at 14-16 water gauge to reach F+20. And there the practicalities rested. It does have the unintended consequence of keeping off the fixed pitch instruments, which may or may not be an advantage, according to taste. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Hi Paul. I read that book, along with another one which argued that equal temperament made Modern (post-modern?) Civilization the greatest the world has ever known, or something like that. Sorry, I don't remember the name of the book or its author. I didn't agree with his premise or his thesis, but then again my motto might be if it ain't diatonic why bother? Ross W. Duffin: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care) I've been reading about microtonal scales, which were and still are used by the same people who brought us the concept of 0 and the seven day week. Any analysis of scales on our chosen instrument has to always keep the drone in the back ground, otherwise we might as well be a clarinet NG. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning
Hello Matt Yep, it's a 7 key chanter so no F nats. Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed (OK, there have only been 3 in 40 years!) prefer that key. And finally, as an instrumental it makes a loamishly lovely springboard to dive into P B's P. Cheers Anthony --- On Mon, 7/2/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 16:41 On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Anthony Robb [1][1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: * My solo pipes are happy playing at 458 which is well on the way to F# but when I do Em tunes I tune drones to a reasonably happy compromise between fingered B and bottom E. To keep in acceptable tune with these drones I find I am playing at 454. I keep it all as relaxed as possible and Bonny at Morn, Peter Bailey's Pig etc sound good to my ears. Just curious - why play Bonny At Morn in Em? Would Am not fall more readily under the fingers, or do people generally not have an Fnat key? -- References 1. mailto:[2]anth...@robbpipes.com To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Chanter Tuning
From Chris Gregg: So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was just poor musicianship on my part! The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it in recording sessions. Hello Chris This sounds to me as though your bottom G is a tad flat and that's why so many notes seem sharp. The other thing to say is that the chanter, in all likelihood, could be brought in tune with careful use of PVA glue (for sharp notes) and a scalpel fitted with an 11P blade (for flat notes). Before doing anything drastic, however, I would get to know your chanter's idiosyncrasies by removing the cotton wool plug, if there is one, from the bottom of the bore. Then I'd repeat your measurements (draw up a table) with a cotton bud inserted at set positions into the bore. I'd start off with the rounded tip in at 10mm then go up by 5mm increments to within 15mm of your bottom D (for a 7 key chanter) checking the tuning of each note as you go. Write down your results so the pattern can be seen at a glance. This will tell you how much effect the standing waves below each chanter note are affecting the pitch of each note. You might find one position will bring your chanter closer in tune with itself. If the cotton bud makes matters worse I'd insert a 20mm narrow cone of cotton wool (point first) into the chanter and see if that helps. If you do need to resort to scalpel glue I'd do this with the cotton wool cone to minimise standing waves interfering with your tuning. Let me know how you get on. With regards to recording sessions every group of pipers of pipers will have their own solution. As you say solo is fine as the piper can adjust where necessary. At the other end of the scale massed pipes are OK too because variations with 5 chanters or more tend to balance out. The trickiest we find is when 3 pipes are playing together. We found that recording the three chanters together without drones (live or recorded) works best as each of us listens out for what is happening with the other players and adjusts where necessary. Then drones are tuned to the chanters and added to the mix. This can mean up to 11.5 mins of constant drone without fingering the chanter at all which is surprisingly tiring on the fingers. It also means that chanters have to be played at a fairly consistent pitch and in with each other without any external reference point at all. But then as we can see from the recent posts external references are often a hindrance rather that a help in that situation. I hope some of this helps but please remember no theories whatsoever have been used as a basis for this advice just 40 years mucking about with some of the loveliest chanters around (Burleigh, Gruar, Hedworth, Nelson and Ross) and nowt but my own lugs as final arbiter. Good Luck Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Hi Chris, I am sure that you will be finding Anthony Robb's suggestions most helpful. He is a most practical person as well as being a very good player. No doubt you have his two CDs, Windy Gyle and Force 6 I don't know what other instruments you play. At some point I think you said something to the effect that everyone else uses the tempered scale, who don't the NSP? Perhaps you are aware that really good string and wind players, when playing in small ensembles, definitely alter the pitch of certain notes when playing together? I well remember one rehearsal session where one of the players was obviously not as sensitive as the others and could not get his note in tune for the final chord. He kept on insisting that he was playing exactly the same B as he had in the chord at the beginning of the piece. The rest of us immediately said, That is the problem. In the first chord your B was the fifth in the E minor chord, and at the end it is the 3rd of the G major chord. Likewise, when playing the Northumbrian pipes with really good violinists who will, of course, have tuned their violins to the NSP G (i.e. concert F or G depending on which chanter is being used) because that is a better note to tune to than the traditional A - especially if most of the tunes to be played will be in G, you will notice that these violinists will frequently not use an open string A or E when playing along with you, because it would sound out of tune. If you have listened to some of the recordings made with Nsp and fiddles playing in unison you will notice that some sound great but others hurt your ears and make you shudder. When you listen to really good a capella (unaccompanied) small vocal ensembles such as the King's Singers you are struck by the perfection of their harmonies. Perhaps other people disagree with me and this will stir up a hornet's nest. It is just my personal thoughts on the subject and i don't claim to be an expert. Sheila -Original Message- From: Christopher Gregg chrisdgr...@gmail.com To: nsp nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 11:13 pm Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was just poor musicianship on my part! I have just checked out the deviation on my pipes with a tuner on my Iphone. Very interesting results.I offset the tuner to A398, so that the needle would hold still on the G. I did not use a mamoneter and I rounded out the notes to the nearest five cents. There was some correlation with Mike Nelson's chart, but also some serious differences. The b above g was approx ten cents flat, the upper B more than 25 cents flat. The upper A is 20 cents sharp, which explains why the B always sounds so flat and I try and compensate with the bag. Now my e and f#s are both on the sharp side which is the opposite to Mikes chart. I can see that I need a new chanter, but my question is, why not use equal temperament Now I can see why the fifths on the drones should be tuned pure, but in equal temperament the fifth would only beat one time in two and a half seconds, which is hardly noticeable. Is it so bad to have a little beating on the third and sixth with the drones? It is not like we can play chords on the chanter, unless it is with another set of pipes. Every one else in the world pretty well plays to equal temperament and also use tuning machines to verify their results. I am aware of perfect pitch but never having just intonation. That is very interesting. The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it in recording sessions. Chris Gregg -- Forwarded message -- From: [1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:40 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships To: [2]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk, [3]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Btw, Rob Say's nsp simulator is in equal temperament. I've discussed this with him and he agrees that it's less than ideal but it's neverthless a good starting point for beginners - which was what is was intended to be. When it tells you that, for example, the G and D drones are in tune, the d is still slightly (2 cents) flat relative to the G, but the just increment is not available - next click and it's sharp. Add the B on the chanter to the in tune fifth and you get an equally tempered G major triad, which is OK on a percussion instrument like the piano, where inharmonicity (q.v.) is part of the basic sound anyway and the sound mercifully decays fairly rapidly, but it sounds jarring to the ears of, for example, a sensitive piper or string-player. I hope I can feel confident that Rob will not object to my taking his name in vain. Csirz P.S. Have any fiddlers/violinists out there wondered why
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Thanks all for these responses. I'm trying in vain to remember the name in a BBC Radio3 programme some while ago about the Italian composer, just before Gesualdo, who devised the most amazing system to mean that all intervals were perfectly in tune, but the instruments, and singers, had to be tuned with several microtonally different versions of each nominal note to achieve it. I've thought before that it almost argues the existence of a god with a sense of humour, to set the maths so that the octave does want to divide, via the 5ths, into 12 semitones which then don't produce an octave. Back to playing the pipes. Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
I put this down to my pipes being tuned with G as their home key, as it were, This is probably it, as you probably (I hope) have your pipes tuned in more like just intonation than equal temperament. So your nominal B, for example, will be very flat as the second degree of the A minor scale. Playing in E minor is virtually impossible (in fact Dick Hensold reckons it is impossible) unless you tweak the B upwards quite a bit. It's doable if your bottom E is tuned flatter than an octave lower than the top e (the latter being more pressure-tweakable than the former). See Mike Nelson's website (although, strangely enough, this is not the reason he gives for the discrepant tuning). Or am I just approaching ever nearer to being certifiably in need of locking away? Probably. Join the club ;-) csirz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
The tuning given here is basically just intonation rather than meantone: http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/smallpipes/tuning.htm In other words, acoustically pure intervals. No tempering at all. but on a piano a fifth is a fifth is a fifth (nearly). Nearly = two cents narrow cf. Mike Nelson's correct fifths. The problem with just intonation (with G as the home key) is that it gives you perfect triads on G, C and D but the fifth between A and top e is unusable as such (2O cents narrower than equal temperament = 22 cents narrower than just i.e. acoustically pure, 2:3 ratio). The top e needs to be pressure-tweaked to give a good fifth above A. left alone it gives a good third with C. You can't have both with the same pitch. What we really need is eight notes (= different pitch classes) to the octave rather than just seven. And this is just for G major. No one needs to take my word for any of this. There's masses of stuff on tuning on the net. HTH csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Btw, Rob Say's nsp simulator is in equal temperament. I've discussed this with him and he agrees that it's less than ideal but it's neverthless a good starting point for beginners - which was what is was intended to be. When it tells you that, for example, the G and D drones are in tune, the d is still slightly (2 cents) flat relative to the G, but the just increment is not available - next click and it's sharp. Add the B on the chanter to the in tune fifth and you get an equally tempered G major triad, which is OK on a percussion instrument like the piano, where inharmonicity (q.v.) is part of the basic sound anyway and the sound mercifully decays fairly rapidly, but it sounds jarring to the ears of, for example, a sensitive piper or string-player. I hope I can feel confident that Rob will not object to my taking his name in vain. Csírz P.S. Have any fiddlers/violinists out there wondered why it's so difficult to sound in tune in C major - especially if there are lots of double stops and chords (e.g. Paganini's 11th caprice to take an obvious example g)? It's because you have to decide at any point whether you want/need to be in tune with the G string or the E string. To be in tune with both, you have to temper (narrow) your fifths, and then the fifths sound rongue. The chord GEbe (open G, first finger E+b, open e) (not encountered in said caprice, btw) is impossible to get in tune unless you tweak the finger sharp as you pass from the E to the b. Anyone really interested should look up syntonic comma (which is the difference between five perfect fifths (= open strings of viola + violin) and two octaves and a pure major third). It's the reason why guitarists with sensitive ears are never happy with the tuning of the G and b strings (and why you can't tune the fifth fret harmonic on the b string to the fourth fret harmonic on the g string - although many try to!). Once you've got used to hearing/listening to pure intervals, you realise that these are by no means dry, academic, theoretical considerations. If you haven't yet acquired the taste, you have a treat in store. Go for it. I was actually born with just intonation ears - so my music teacher at school told me (or words to that effect). C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was just poor musicianship on my part! I have just checked out the deviation on my pipes with a tuner on my Iphone. Very interesting results.I offset the tuner to A398, so that the needle would hold still on the G. I did not use a mamoneter and I rounded out the notes to the nearest five cents. There was some correlation with Mike Nelson's chart, but also some serious differences. The b above g was approx ten cents flat, the upper B more than 25 cents flat. The upper A is 20 cents sharp, which explains why the B always sounds so flat and I try and compensate with the bag. Now my e and f#s are both on the sharp side which is the opposite to Mikes chart. I can see that I need a new chanter, but my question is, why not use equal temperament Now I can see why the fifths on the drones should be tuned pure, but in equal temperament the fifth would only beat one time in two and a half seconds, which is hardly noticeable. Is it so bad to have a little beating on the third and sixth with the drones? It is not like we can play chords on the chanter, unless it is with another set of pipes. Every one else in the world pretty well plays to equal temperament and also use tuning machines to verify their results. I am aware of perfect pitch but never having just intonation. That is very interesting. The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it in recording sessions. Chris Gregg -- Forwarded message -- From: [1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:40 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships To: [2]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk, [3]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Btw, Rob Say's nsp simulator is in equal temperament. I've discussed this with him and he agrees that it's less than ideal but it's neverthless a good starting point for beginners - which was what is was intended to be. When it tells you that, for example, the G and D drones are in tune, the d is still slightly (2 cents) flat relative to the G, but the just increment is not available - next click and it's sharp. Add the B on the chanter to the in tune fifth and you get an equally tempered G major triad, which is OK on a percussion instrument like the piano, where inharmonicity (q.v.) is part of the basic sound anyway and the sound mercifully decays fairly rapidly, but it sounds jarring to the ears of, for example, a sensitive piper or string-player. I hope I can feel confident that Rob will not object to my taking his name in vain. Csirz P.S. Have any fiddlers/violinists out there wondered why it's so difficult to sound in tune in C major - especially if there are lots of double stops and chords (e.g. Paganini's 11th caprice to take an obvious example g)? It's because you have to decide at any point whether you want/need to be in tune with the G string or the E string. To be in tune with both, you have to temper (narrow) your fifths, and then the fifths sound rongue. The chord GEbe (open G, first finger E+b, open e) (not encountered in said caprice, btw) is impossible to get in tune unless you tweak the finger sharp as you pass from the E to the b. Anyone really interested should look up syntonic comma (which is the difference between five perfect fifths (= open strings of viola + violin) and two octaves and a pure major third). It's the reason why guitarists with sensitive ears are never happy with the tuning of the G and b strings (and why you can't tune the fifth fret harmonic on the b string to the fourth fret harmonic on the g string - although many try to!). Once you've got used to hearing/listening to pure intervals, you realise that these are by no means dry, academic, theoretical considerations. If you haven't yet acquired the taste, you have a treat in store. Go for it. I was actually born with just intonation ears - so my music teacher at school told me (or words to that effect). C To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- [5]http://www.tuneit.ca -- References 1. mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu 2. mailto:rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk 3. mailto:nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.tuneit.ca/
[NSP] Esoteric tuning relationships
I am sure I'm not the only person here who gets different feelings about different keys. G always feels fairly stable, A is a bit more exciting, Em is darker than Am , and so on. When playing an A minor tune I wrote for nsp's on the piano to see what harmonies it wanted, I was playing in Am, the written pitch, to get the right feel. It comes out on the pipes in more-or-less G minor of course, but still has that feeling of lift of being on A rather than G. While I lack the finger facility to play it in Gm on the pipes I suspect it would feel different there, just as it does on real Gm on the piano. I put this down to my pipes being tuned with G as their home key, as it were, so the maths is probably the same in relation to G on the piano if you can work out what I mean by this imprecise expression. I realise this could get far far more complicated than my maths will begin to understand, so will content myself with wondering if anyone else gets this feeling, and if it transposes itself the same way for you between nsp's and concert pitch instruments. Or am I just approaching ever nearer to being certifiably in need of locking away? Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
This makes a lot more sense on a mean-tone tempered instrument like NSP, than on a notionally equal-tempered one like a piano. Different keys do have perceptibly different intervals between the various degrees on NSP, so G-d is pretty true and E-B is on the flat side; but on a piano a fifth is a fifth is a fifth (nearly). John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York [rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk] Sent: 03 February 2011 18:25 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Esoteric tuning relationships I am sure I'm not the only person here who gets different feelings about different keys. G always feels fairly stable, A is a bit more exciting, Em is darker than Am , and so on. When playing an A minor tune I wrote for nsp's on the piano to see what harmonies it wanted, I was playing in Am, the written pitch, to get the right feel. It comes out on the pipes in more-or-less G minor of course, but still has that feeling of lift of being on A rather than G. While I lack the finger facility to play it in Gm on the pipes I suspect it would feel different there, just as it does on real Gm on the piano. I put this down to my pipes being tuned with G as their home key, as it were, so the maths is probably the same in relation to G on the piano if you can work out what I mean by this imprecise expression. I realise this could get far far more complicated than my maths will begin to understand, so will content myself with wondering if anyone else gets this feeling, and if it transposes itself the same way for you between nsp's and concert pitch instruments. Or am I just approaching ever nearer to being certifiably in need of locking away? Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bewicks German Spa
Ouch!!! -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ian Lawther Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:09 AM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Bewicks German Spa I've just noticed a tune called German Spa in Bewick and wondered if it is, by definition, a Bad tune! Ian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bewicks German Spa
Hi Ian, Check out Shotley Sword-makers - it may have be a link to the spa and the German sword makers who emigrated in the time of King William Tschüss Dave s On 2/1/2011 5:09 AM, Ian Lawther wrote: I've just noticed a tune called German Spa in Bewick and wondered if it is, by definition, a Bad tune! Ian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3414 - Release Date: 01/31/11
[NSP] Re: Bewicks German Spa
Re: German Spa It's a fairly standard 19th C dance tune, no local connection AFAIK, I included it in the edited selection because Bewick has a plain chanter adaptation (other versions need c#) On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Dave S [1]david...@pt.lu wrote: Hi Ian, Check out Shotley Sword-makers - it may have be a link to the spa and the German sword makers who emigrated in the time of King William Tschuess Dave s On 2/1/2011 5:09 AM, Ian Lawther wrote: I've just noticed a tune called German Spa in Bewick and wondered if it is, by definition, a Bad tune! Ian To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - [3]www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3414 - Release Date: 01/31/11 -- References 1. mailto:david...@pt.lu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.avg.com/
[NSP] Re: Bewicks German Spa
Quite a bit of info at http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/GEO_GH.htm Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch?
At the Potomac piper's gathering a few weeks back, I noticed that few folks had instrument set up to jam with the NSP players in their F+ sets, except for one pennywhistle player. Is there any standard way to play in F+ on a tinwhistle? Is it best to get an F whistle (low or high), take off the head, trim a bit of the top of the body so you can slide the head tighter? Or do the same on a C whistle to sharpen your F scale (the three fingers down pitch)? Or do folks do the opposite and get a 'whistle that can play a G scale and pull the head out to bring the G down to F+? Any advice on how to go about this, and which marques of 'whistle are easiest to modify? Strings instruments are easy to play in F+ with, clearly, though for my concertina it'd take a pretty specific re-tune to play F+! -Matthew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch?
Matthew - Check the following on Chiff Fipple whistle forum [1]http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1t=70731hilit=no rthumbrian It's from Jerry Freeman, whistle tweaker and maker, talking about how he set up some whistles to fit with Chris Ormston and Andy May's pipes. Best wishes. Steve On 1/31/11 5:01 PM, Matthew Boris [2]matthew_p...@hotmail.com wrote: At the Potomac piper's gathering a few weeks back, I noticed that few folks had instrument set up to jam with the NSP players in their F+ sets, except for one pennywhistle player. Is there any standard way to play in F+ on a tinwhistle? Is it best to get an F whistle (low or high), take off the head, trim a bit of the top of the body so you can slide the head tighter? Or do the same on a C whistle to sharpen your F scale (the three fingers down pitch)? Or do folks do the opposite and get a 'whistle that can play a G scale and pull the head out to bring the G down to F+? Any advice on how to go about this, and which marques of 'whistle are easiest to modify? Strings instruments are easy to play in F+ with, clearly, though for my concertina it'd take a pretty specific re-tune to play F+! -Matthew -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1t=70731hilit=northumbrian 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/matthew_p...@hotmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch?
Hi Matthew, Don't be fooled by the nomenclature when talking about Northumbrian small pipes. A set of pipes playing in F+ is actually playing about 75 cents below concert pitch i.e. if you finger a G on the pipes it will show F+ on a meter. If you have a tuneable D whistle and can pull the tuning slide out far enough, you should be able to get in tune with a set of pipes playing F+. Conversely, take a C whistle and push the tuning slide in to sharpen it. It depends on how good your whistle is as to whether it remains in tune throughout the range. Richard ps SHAMELESS PLUG: The Pipers' Gathering will be featuring Mike McHale and Andrea Mori teaching whistle and flute. Check out their classes and then jam with some of the NSP players. See www.pipersgathering.org for details. - Original Message - From: Matthew Boris matthew_p...@hotmail.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 5:01 PM Subject: [NSP] Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch? At the Potomac piper's gathering a few weeks back, I noticed that few folks had instrument set up to jam with the NSP players in their F+ sets, except for one pennywhistle player. Is there any standard way to play in F+ on a tinwhistle? Is it best to get an F whistle (low or high), take off the head, trim a bit of the top of the body so you can slide the head tighter? Or do the same on a C whistle to sharpen your F scale (the three fingers down pitch)? Or do folks do the opposite and get a 'whistle that can play a G scale and pull the head out to bring the G down to F+? Any advice on how to go about this, and which marques of 'whistle are easiest to modify? Strings instruments are easy to play in F+ with, clearly, though for my concertina it'd take a pretty specific re-tune to play F+! -Matthew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast though been all the night?
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Anthony Robb [1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: . would it be even more wonderful if some clever person (I think all three of you have the skills) to put it all done as a living piece of music somewhere for all to hear? Anthony Thanks to Anthony's generosity, recording equipment, and patience I now have an audio of my version of Where Hast Thou Been All The Night. It is housed for the moment on my band's myspace site [2]myspace.com/mattseattleband where it is the last track in the 'music box', you may have to scroll down to find and hear it. Cheers Matt -- References 1. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://myspace.com/mattseattleband To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch?
I was the fellow for whom Jerry Freeman adjusted that C whistle. I had tried to do it myself by flattening a D whistle, but it was terribly out of tune in the upper notes. I did not own a C whistle, so took advantage of Jerry's expertise while at Killington to get a C and sharpen it. No need to modify the body or hole locations. 25 cents is not too far and it tunes right on with the NSP. Also, retuning to its original, it matches with an NSP in concert F. On 1/31/11 5:44 PM, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: Hi Matthew, Don't be fooled by the nomenclature when talking about Northumbrian small pipes. A set of pipes playing in F+ is actually playing about 75 cents below concert pitch i.e. if you finger a G on the pipes it will show F+ on a meter. If you have a tuneable D whistle and can pull the tuning slide out far enough, you should be able to get in tune with a set of pipes playing F+. Conversely, take a C whistle and push the tuning slide in to sharpen it. It depends on how good your whistle is as to whether it remains in tune throughout the range. Richard ps SHAMELESS PLUG: The Pipers' Gathering will be featuring Mike McHale and Andrea Mori teaching whistle and flute. Check out their classes and then jam with some of the NSP players. See www.pipersgathering.org for details. - Original Message - From: Matthew Boris matthew_p...@hotmail.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 5:01 PM Subject: [NSP] Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch? At the Potomac piper's gathering a few weeks back, I noticed that few folks had instrument set up to jam with the NSP players in their F+ sets, except for one pennywhistle player. Is there any standard way to play in F+ on a tinwhistle? Is it best to get an F whistle (low or high), take off the head, trim a bit of the top of the body so you can slide the head tighter? Or do the same on a C whistle to sharpen your F scale (the three fingers down pitch)? Or do folks do the opposite and get a 'whistle that can play a G scale and pull the head out to bring the G down to F+? Any advice on how to go about this, and which marques of 'whistle are easiest to modify? Strings instruments are easy to play in F+ with, clearly, though for my concertina it'd take a pretty specific re-tune to play F+! -Matthew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch?
This makes a lot of sense because you don't have to move a C whistle as much to get it in tune with F+ pipes. - Original Message - From: Chips Lanier chips-lan...@vmi70.org To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Richard Shuttleworth rshuttlewo...@sympatico.ca; Matthew Boris matthew_p...@hotmail.com Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:00 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch? I was the fellow for whom Jerry Freeman adjusted that C whistle. I had tried to do it myself by flattening a D whistle, but it was terribly out of tune in the upper notes. I did not own a C whistle, so took advantage of Jerry's expertise while at Killington to get a C and sharpen it. No need to modify the body or hole locations. 25 cents is not too far and it tunes right on with the NSP. Also, retuning to its original, it matches with an NSP in concert F. On 1/31/11 5:44 PM, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: Hi Matthew, Don't be fooled by the nomenclature when talking about Northumbrian small pipes. A set of pipes playing in F+ is actually playing about 75 cents below concert pitch i.e. if you finger a G on the pipes it will show F+ on a meter. If you have a tuneable D whistle and can pull the tuning slide out far enough, you should be able to get in tune with a set of pipes playing F+. Conversely, take a C whistle and push the tuning slide in to sharpen it. It depends on how good your whistle is as to whether it remains in tune throughout the range. Richard ps SHAMELESS PLUG: The Pipers' Gathering will be featuring Mike McHale and Andrea Mori teaching whistle and flute. Check out their classes and then jam with some of the NSP players. See www.pipersgathering.org for details. - Original Message - From: Matthew Boris matthew_p...@hotmail.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 5:01 PM Subject: [NSP] Tweaking pennywhisle to NSP F+ pitch? At the Potomac piper's gathering a few weeks back, I noticed that few folks had instrument set up to jam with the NSP players in their F+ sets, except for one pennywhistle player. Is there any standard way to play in F+ on a tinwhistle? Is it best to get an F whistle (low or high), take off the head, trim a bit of the top of the body so you can slide the head tighter? Or do the same on a C whistle to sharpen your F scale (the three fingers down pitch)? Or do folks do the opposite and get a 'whistle that can play a G scale and pull the head out to bring the G down to F+? Any advice on how to go about this, and which marques of 'whistle are easiest to modify? Strings instruments are easy to play in F+ with, clearly, though for my concertina it'd take a pretty specific re-tune to play F+! -Matthew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Thomas Saunders
Hello All, There's a super tune called Thomas Saunders, and for a project with Alnwick Pipers I need to know who wrote it - I'm assuming that it was not Mr. Trad. I've found nothing by digging around on the web, and I've also asked a number of individuals I thought might know. It remains a mystery. Can anyone help, please? Thanks, Richard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Thomas Sander !
Hello All I'd like to thank all the people who replied to my question. I've gleaned some of the recent history of the tune, and rediscovered a couple of websites I've not visited for a while. Especial thanks to Ian Lawther, though, whose very specific reply has solved my problem - I'm really grateful, Richard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Thomas Sander !
Oh do share! :) - Original Message - From: richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk To: NSP Dartmouth nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; NPS Forum discuss...@northumbrianpipers.org.uk Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:46 AM Subject: [NSP] Thomas Sander ! Hello All I'd like to thank all the people who replied to my question. I've gleaned some of the recent history of the tune, and rediscovered a couple of websites I've not visited for a while. Especial thanks to Ian Lawther, though, whose very specific reply has solved my problem - I'm really grateful, Richard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Sharing Thomas Sander
Thanks to Ian I knew what to look for, and found this YouTube recording of the Tunes of Glory pipe band playing a medley that starts with Thomas Sander: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxwiA7wTKHc I'm afraid I can't write abc, so I can't post a transcription of it. It's a 4/4 march in D. Richard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [NPS-Discussion] Sharing Thomas Sander
On 19 Jan 2011, richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I'm afraid I can't write abc, so I can't post a transcription of it. It's a 4/4 march in D. Here's what was submitted for the NPS folio (as abc), which I think originates with Margaret W's transcription: X:7867 T:Thomas Saunders C:? M:C E:10 L:1/8 K:D dB|A2 d2 d3 e|f4 e2 d2|G4 B2 d2|A4 A4|\ d2 A2 d3 e|f2 d2 A3 d|f d3 a3 f|e4 e2 f2|\ A2 d2 d3 e|f4 e2 d2|G4 B2 d2|A4 A4|\ B2 g2 f2 e2|a2 f2 d3 B|A2 g2 f2 e2|d4 d4||\ c3 d e2 A2|g3 f e4|d3 c d2 e2|f2 d2 A4|\ B3 c d2 B2|A2 d2 f4|f d3 a3 f|e4 e2 f2|\ A2 d2 d3 e|f4 e2 d2|G4 B2 d2|A4 A4|\ B2 g2 f2 e2|a2 f2 d3 B|A2 g2 f2 e2|d4 d2||** Now to locate and contact the composer - do the GHB players amongst us know if Karl L Walford of Ontario is still living, or his approximate dates if not?. Hope this helps Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [NPS-Discussion] Sharing Thomas Sander
Karl's book ( http://scottshighland.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=348 ) is published by Scott's Highland Supply and they should be able to give you some information on him. He was still alive in 2007 but probably in his late 60s. Ian Julia Say wrote: On 19 Jan 2011, richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I'm afraid I can't write abc, so I can't post a transcription of it. It's a 4/4 march in D. Here's what was submitted for the NPS folio (as abc), which I think originates with Margaret W's transcription: X:7867 T:Thomas Saunders C:? M:C E:10 L:1/8 K:D dB|A2 d2 d3 e|f4 e2 d2|G4 B2 d2|A4 A4|\ d2 A2 d3 e|f2 d2 A3 d|f d3 a3 f|e4 e2 f2|\ A2 d2 d3 e|f4 e2 d2|G4 B2 d2|A4 A4|\ B2 g2 f2 e2|a2 f2 d3 B|A2 g2 f2 e2|d4 d4||\ c3 d e2 A2|g3 f e4|d3 c d2 e2|f2 d2 A4|\ B3 c d2 B2|A2 d2 f4|f d3 a3 f|e4 e2 f2|\ A2 d2 d3 e|f4 e2 d2|G4 B2 d2|A4 A4|\ B2 g2 f2 e2|a2 f2 d3 B|A2 g2 f2 e2|d4 d2||** Now to locate and contact the composer - do the GHB players amongst us know if Karl L Walford of Ontario is still living, or his approximate dates if not?. Hope this helps Julia ___ Discussion mailing list discuss...@northumbrianpipers.org.uk http://northumbrianpipers.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/discussion_northumbrianpipers.org.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Cane Sample
Free cane sample from medir [1]www.medir.cat Peter. -- References 1. http://www.medir.cat/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
I actually rather like the 2nd viennese school version, especially with the 15/16 bars at the end of strains! c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbons, John Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 4:12 PM To: 'NSP group' Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads With the typographical huge leaps removed - these age-yellowed whisky-stained MS abc files are a b---r to read. X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g||:f| eA Ac BD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac BD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A :| c|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| c|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| ||:f|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A:|| G|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| G|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A2|| John -Original Message- From: Gibbons, John Sent: 17 January 2011 12:46 To: NSP group Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads Richard, Your discovery is a good one, but the rhythm of the title ''The Rotting of the Cotton Threads'' is so clearly a Strathspey, as Francis noted, that I looked elsewhere in the archive. On a moth eaten, yellowing, and (Speyside) whisky-stained sheet of paper I found: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g.||:f/| eA Ac bD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac bD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A. :| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| ||:f/|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A.:|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| Perhaps this is the one Francis was thinking of?? The title rhythm certainly fits the first bar, so perhaps someone can also discover the missing lyric John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
Richard, Your discovery is a good one, but the rhythm of the title ''The Rotting of the Cotton Threads'' is so clearly a Strathspey, as Francis noted, that I looked elsewhere in the archive. On a moth eaten, yellowing, and (Speyside) whisky-stained sheet of paper I found: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g.||:f/| eA Ac bD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac bD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A. :| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| ||:f/|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A.:|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| Perhaps this is the one Francis was thinking of?? The title rhythm certainly fits the first bar, so perhaps someone can also discover the missing lyric John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
I suspect both these tunes are based on the old north Northumbrian air 'The Throttlin' of the Reeds/Reids' Best wishes Margaret -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbons, John Sent: 17 January 2011 12:46 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads Richard, Your discovery is a good one, but the rhythm of the title ''The Rotting of the Cotton Threads'' is so clearly a Strathspey, as Francis noted, that I looked elsewhere in the archive. On a moth eaten, yellowing, and (Speyside) whisky-stained sheet of paper I found: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g.||:f/| eA Ac bD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac bD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A. :| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| ||:f/|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A.:|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| Perhaps this is the one Francis was thinking of?? The title rhythm certainly fits the first bar, so perhaps someone can also discover the missing lyric John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
On 17 Jan 2011, at 13:00, Margaret Watchorn wrote: I suspect both these tunes are based on the old north Northumbrian air 'The Throttlin' of the Reeds/Reids' Margaret, I think you're probably right. The problem with Rotting of The Cotton Threads is the question: why would anyone want to do this? Rotting is part of linen production, extracting fibres from long stems. With cotton, the stuff is already white and fluffy and generally lovely. The melody itself has aspects of the 2nd Viennese school, with those improbable abrupt leaps. Could this be one of McBeaumont's compositions? Or am I making this already rotten thread even worse? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
Having listened - a spectacular discovery, John! It must have taken quite a while to, er, find it. Best wishes, Richard. On 17/01/2011 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: Corrected the upbeats: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g||:f| eA Ac bD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac bD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A :| c|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| c|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| ||:f|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A:|| G|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| G|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A2|| John -Original Message- From: Gibbons, John Sent: 17 January 2011 12:46 To: NSP group Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads Richard, Your discovery is a good one, but the rhythm of the title ''The Rotting of the Cotton Threads'' is so clearly a Strathspey, as Francis noted, that I looked elsewhere in the archive. On a moth eaten, yellowing, and (Speyside) whisky-stained sheet of paper I found: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g.||:f/| eA Ac bD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac bD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A. :| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| ||:f/|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A.:|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| Perhaps this is the one Francis was thinking of?? The title rhythm certainly fits the first bar, so perhaps someone can also discover the missing lyric John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
With the typographical huge leaps removed - these age-yellowed whisky-stained MS abc files are a b---r to read. X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g||:f| eA Ac BD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac BD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A :| c|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| c|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| ||:f|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A:|| G|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A|| G|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A2|| John -Original Message- From: Gibbons, John Sent: 17 January 2011 12:46 To: NSP group Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads Richard, Your discovery is a good one, but the rhythm of the title ''The Rotting of the Cotton Threads'' is so clearly a Strathspey, as Francis noted, that I looked elsewhere in the archive. On a moth eaten, yellowing, and (Speyside) whisky-stained sheet of paper I found: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g.||:f/| eA Ac bD EB| ef ge Be B/Ge/|eA Ac bD EB| cd e/d/c/d/ eA A. :| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af dA fd| ef ea ac df| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| c/|ef ea ac de| fg af be fd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| ||:f/|ec eA GB EB|eB gB e/d/c/B/ cf|ec eA GB EB|eB g/f/e/d/ eA A.:|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fd| EF EA CE A,c|ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| G/|EF EA CE A,C|EG Ac dA fa| (3bag (3agf (3gfe (3fed| ef g/f/e/d/ eA A.|| Perhaps this is the one Francis was thinking of?? The title rhythm certainly fits the first bar, so perhaps someone can also discover the missing lyric John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
What a lovely thought, Philip. Thanks too for the warnings about possible pitfalls with the flake shellac method. By and large it works really well but there be problems if the soldering iron hasn't reached max temp. Anthony --- On Sat, 15/1/11, Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net wrote: From: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 22:53 Incidently, you can also get 'Blonde' French Polish which might suit lighter woods. Under the ferrules, the colour of the polish is like the beautiful carvings up out of sight on a medieval cathedral - there because only God can see it. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
An arduous piece of research Richard, for which we are all indebted! Clearly this represents a tradition in its debased and probably final stage. The bonds holding the whole thing together are finally disintegrating. It seems quite probable that the decline and fall of the Roman Empire may have had as its root cause the use of the wrong sort of oil. Probably bunged up their lamps something rotten. The title here refers to a linen process perhaps, also known as retting? I suppose most people know of the abc resource 'ABC Convert-A-Matic' where you can see the dots and hear the notes of this or any other tune?: http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html Francis On 16 Jan 2011, at 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
There may in fact be a market for pipers' discarded threads in India. Weve all seen the thick bands of rotting pink threads that North Indian men wear around their wrists and the fat, lipsticked men with pencil moustaches so beloved of the South Indian screen. (http://www.hindu.com/lr/2008/03/02/stories/2008030250020100.htm) So far no-one has complained on this list of a surplus of fat, lipsticked men, with or without moustaches, pencil or otherwise, but give it time. Tim On 16 Jan 2011, at 23:08, Francis Wood wrote: An arduous piece of research Richard, for which we are all indebted! Clearly this represents a tradition in its debased and probably final stage. The bonds holding the whole thing together are finally disintegrating. It seems quite probable that the decline and fall of the Roman Empire may have had as its root cause the use of the wrong sort of oil. Probably bunged up their lamps something rotten. The title here refers to a linen process perhaps, also known as retting? I suppose most people know of the abc resource 'ABC Convert-A-Matic' where you can see the dots and hear the notes of this or any other tune?: http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html Francis On 16 Jan 2011, at 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
How about The Gold Plated pipes or Snotomer's Maggot. Does anyone feel inspired to write them? Dru On 15 Jan 2011, at 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Shellac
After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
I certainly still use shellac - and I'm pretty sure other pipemakers do. It has the advantage of being easily removable. Heating the ferrule quite gently will melt the shellac and allow the ferrule to be taken off if any future repair is needed. Old shellac can be cleaned off with methylated spirit (denatured alcohol?) as can any that gets where you don't want it when you are using it. I also use it for sticking key-pads on - I'm very traditional - where it's best to use the thicker and stickier bits from the sides of the jar, where some of the spirit has evaporated. Painting it on and then lighting it to burn away the spirit also makes it stickier, and does a faster job of securing the ferrule - but sometimes it's then too sticky to push the ferrule over. You may find that a bit of sewing thread wrapped round the wood first is useful if the ferrule is too loose a fit. Buying sanding sealer may mean you have to get a big tin - far more than you need for a few ferrules. I buy it in little jars or bottles as French Polish - which I suspect may be thicker (i.e. less alcohol in the mix) than sanding sealer, and one jar lasts a very long time. Button polish, or genuine shellac knotting (knot-sealer for use prior to painting) is the same stuff, though some stuff sold as knotting is made with synthetic resins. Beware of stuff called Amateur French Polish - I got some once and it was far too thin, and didn't work well enough as glue. Philip - Original Message - From: Paul Scott pscot...@gmail.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: [NSP] Shellac After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
Paul, this largely depends on what the pipe-maker has used in the first place. Shellac would be an appropriate material for antique pipes, fulfilling two functions, both as an adhesive and a gap-filler. In this case the material would be solid shellac rather than in solution which will obviously change in volume through evaporation. Most NSPs on this planet are made by David Burleigh, his total being well in excess of 3000 sets. His preferred adhesive is UHU and that's what I would recommend if you own one of those. Francis On 15 Jan 2011, at 11:56, Paul Scott wrote: After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
Hello Francis and Paul David B uses shellac on his silver mounted sets. As Paul's set is made from lignum it won't be a Burleigh set. So shellac seems to make sense in this case. When it comes to pad fixing Mike Nelson's method of using a small piece of flake shellac between pad and key in situ on the chanter and then gentle pressing a hot soldering iron on the key until the molten shellac reaches the edges of the key (easily observed) seems to work well. It also heat forms the pad to seal nicely with any minor irregularities in the chanter seating. Anthony --- On Sat, 15/1/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac To: Paul Scott pscot...@gmail.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 12:39 Paul, this largely depends on what the pipe-maker has used in the first place. Shellac would be an appropriate material for antique pipes, fulfilling two functions, both as an adhesive and a gap-filler. In this case the material would be solid shellac rather than in solution which will obviously change in volume through evaporation. Most NSPs on this planet are made by David Burleigh, his total being well in excess of 3000 sets. His preferred adhesive is UHU and that's what I would recommend if you own one of those. Francis On 15 Jan 2011, at 11:56, Paul Scott wrote: After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
Hello Anthony and all, I always used to use Mike Nelson's method of sticking on key pads, and agree with your comments of it mostly working well and forming the pad to the shape of the seating. However I have now gone back to the method I originally learned form Colin - the drop of sticky shellac applied with a small brush, or in my case the end of a metal scriber. This is partly because Mike's method is fiddly and time consuming - sticking pads on a 17-key chanter with tiny flakes of shellac and a soldering iron can get very tedious - but my main reason for changing was because I decided it could sometimes contribute to squeaking. The shaped pad has a hard lump in the middle - solidified shellac under the leather of the pad - and this could mean that it occasionally doesn't seal so well and causes a squeak. Admittedly this is only a problem if the key has too much side play in the slot, so that the lump comes down not quite central, but I think it is still a factor to consider. Philip - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 1:11 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac Hello Francis and Paul David B uses shellac on his silver mounted sets. As Paul's set is made from lignum it won't be a Burleigh set. So shellac seems to make sense in this case. When it comes to pad fixing Mike Nelson's method of using a small piece of flake shellac between pad and key in situ on the chanter and then gentle pressing a hot soldering iron on the key until the molten shellac reaches the edges of the key (easily observed) seems to work well. It also heat forms the pad to seal nicely with any minor irregularities in the chanter seating. Anthony --- On Sat, 15/1/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac To: Paul Scott pscot...@gmail.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 12:39 Paul, this largely depends on what the pipe-maker has used in the first place. Shellac would be an appropriate material for antique pipes, fulfilling two functions, both as an adhesive and a gap-filler. In this case the material would be solid shellac rather than in solution which will obviously change in volume through evaporation. Most NSPs on this planet are made by David Burleigh, his total being well in excess of 3000 sets. His preferred adhesive is UHU and that's what I would recommend if you own one of those. Francis On 15 Jan 2011, at 11:56, Paul Scott wrote: After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3380 - Release Date: 01/14/11
[NSP] Re: Shellac
On 15 Jan 2011, at 14:44, Paul Scott wrote: It is a set made in the 70's by my godfather who followed Colin ross's designs and advice. I used a hot hair dryer and pliers to pull off the ferrule and I think there is shellac underneath. So if I applied the solution and then allowed it to get sticky would that solve the evaporation issue? Thanks for the further information, Paul. Yes, that sounds like a successful way to do it. You'll have to assess whether you removed any appreciable amount of shellac in removing the ferrule. It may well be that there's enough there for you to simply reverse the process, i.e. warm the ferrule and shove it back on. I'd just try that and see if it works. If it doesn't, it isn't a critical thing. Just paint some more on, or try Philip's method. Shellac is a wonderful material, an effective adhesive but instantly reversible. As an adhesive it is relatively tolerant of oily surfaces which is a useful property when dealing with NSPs. Incidentally over these past cold months the humidity has often dropped to an unusually low level, resulting in shrinkage of wooden objects. I bet quite a few people are finding that ferrules are loose. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
UHU is a pain if you need to get in there, though. Shellac is at least easy to soften. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
What a helpful discussion! Being rather nervous of soldering irons if I don't absolutely have to use them, I made up a small amount of thick and very sticky shellac-in-alcohol for these purposes by gradually adding more and more dry flake shellac to some good commercial sanding sealer that I decanted into a disused medicine bottle which I then shook together for a very long time. (It dissolved very slowly, especially as the mix got thicker, so I did a bit at a time). It's extremely useful goo, applied with a small brush or toothpick, and it works fast. To keep this mixture from setting hard in the screw thread of the bottle, making it monstrously difficult ever to unscrew again, as I discovered to my cost the first time I tried, I put a double layer of kitchen film over the the bottle neck before screwing the top back. Then it will unscrew easily, however long it is before I need it again. (The same dodge works just as well with used tins of paint and varnish). Daphne On 15 Jan 2011, at 16:45, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: UHU is a pain if you need to get in there, though. Shellac is at least easy to soften. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Daphne Briggs 34 Thorncliffe Road Oxford OX2 7BB Tel/Fax +44 (0)1865 310712
[NSP] Re: Shellac
Hi all Just to add my two 'penneth. I use French Polish from Screwfix (bigger bottles than BQ). I use it straight from the bottle (well mixed) for ferrules and I have some which has slightly evaporated and therefore thicker in a small jar for key-pads. Incidently, you can also get 'Blonde' French Polish which migh suit lighter woods. Don't think I would like to try and un-stick ferrules glued on with UHU! Regards, Nigel. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] CD's books at Halsway
Will whoever's taking any NPS etc shop items to the March Halsway pipers' weekend be including the new Matt Seattle Bewick book, and the excellently well reviewed Rob Say CD, please? Looking forward already to a good weekend. Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Drone reeds
Thanks John. It's a gem! Sunny up here on the plateau. Francis I agree that this is a wonderful article and would like to add a couple of tips which are worth a try: 1. The gentlest way to close a reed (best with cane but can work for composite with care) is to roll it several times between your palms (this is a Colin Caisley/Clough tip I believe). It lets the gentle warmth and pressure of your hands have a go before resorting to more direct sources of heat. . 2. Pipers playing lots in pubs etc will often find grot accumulating between the tongue and body of composite reeds. I find that sliding a piece of thin strong paper (80g/sq metre max) very carefully up to the bridle then pressing on the toungue fairly firmly with the thumb of one hand whilst pulling the paper out with the other removes a noticeable amount of muck. I do this with a fresh area of paper until the paper comes out clean (usually 2 or 3 times) This tip came from Colin Ross and though less of a problem thanks to the smoking ban I find I need to do it every 6 months or so to keep my drone reeds in the Plateau of Stability - I really warm to that phrase. Please regard these these ideas as complementary therapy to John's excellent advice not a challenge to it. As aye Anthony On 12 Jan 2011, at 01:11, John Liestman wrote: Francis, you must have the earlier pre-plateau version! I have posted a pdf file version at [1]http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf for anyone to read that is so inclined. It is called Drone Reeds and the Plateau of Stability but it is truly the plateau of happiness if you can achieve it! Let me know if for some reason the link does not work and I will just email you (whoever you are . . . or is) a copy. Happy droning on the plateau! -- References 1. http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: CD's books at Halsway
Seconded - and probably thirded too, before long! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York [rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk] Sent: 14 January 2011 09:22 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] CD's books at Halsway Will whoever's taking any NPS etc shop items to the March Halsway pipers' weekend be including the new Matt Seattle Bewick book, and the excellently well reviewed Rob Say CD, please? Looking forward already to a good weekend. Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: CD's books at Halsway
On 14 Jan 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: Seconded - and probably thirded too, before long! The Bewick book will be (assuming I can find transport for the NPS bookcase). I shan't be there myself, this year. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Drone reeds
Good stuff Anthony! Those would be the Rolling and Sliding approaches to the Plateau. On 1/14/2011 3:42 AM, Anthony Robb wrote: Thanks John. It's a gem! Sunny up here on the plateau. Francis I agree that this is a wonderful article and would like to add a couple of tips which are worth a try: 1. The gentlest way to close a reed (best with cane but can work for composite with care) is to roll it several times between your palms (this is a Colin Caisley/Clough tip I believe). It lets the gentle warmth and pressure of your hands have a go before resorting to more direct sources of heat. . 2. Pipers playing lots in pubs etc will often find grot accumulating between the tongue and body of composite reeds. I find that sliding a piece of thin strong paper (80g/sq metre max) very carefully up to the bridle then pressing on the toungue fairly firmly with the thumb of one hand whilst pulling the paper out with the other removes a noticeable amount of muck. I do this with a fresh area of paper until the paper comes out clean (usually 2 or 3 times) This tip came from Colin Ross and though less of a problem thanks to the smoking ban I find I need to do it every 6 months or so to keep my drone reeds in the Plateau of Stability - I really warm to that phrase. Please regard these these ideas as complementary therapy to John's excellent advice not a challenge to it. As aye Anthony On 12 Jan 2011, at 01:11, John Liestman wrote: Francis, you must have the earlier pre-plateau version! I have posted a pdf file version at [1]http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf for anyone to read that is so inclined. It is called Drone Reeds and the Plateau of Stability but it is truly the plateau of happiness if you can achieve it! Let me know if for some reason the link does not work and I will just email you (whoever you are . . . or is) a copy. Happy droning on the plateau! -- References 1. http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- John Liestman
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... rubbing or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate methylated spirit into USA-speak, please? until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
I think it's called denatured alcohol. Martin On Fri, 2011-01-14 at 11:31 +, Julia Say wrote: On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... rubbing or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate methylated spirit into USA-speak, please? until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
The walking site I use tells me it denatured alcohol you put what we would call a meths stove Mike -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 14 January 2011 11:32 To: Victor Eskenazi Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... rubbing or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate methylated spirit into USA-speak, please? until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Hello Mike Ian Corrigan recommends lemon oil as a pleasant, not too viscious cleaning liquid. It also, he reckons, gives wood a near invisible but protective coat. I haven't tried it but think it might be worth a try. The border pipes he made for Paul Martin are a visual and sonic delight so I'm very happy to take his word on this. Anthony --- On Fri, 14/1/11, Mike Dixon msdi...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Mike Dixon msdi...@btinternet.com Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... To: 'Northumbrian Small Pipes' nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 14 January, 2011, 11:49 The walking site I use tells me it denatured alcohol you put what we would call a meths stove Mike -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 14 January 2011 11:32 To: Victor Eskenazi Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... rubbing or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate methylated spirit into USA-speak, please? until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Oops
not too viscious .. neither too viscous or too viscous AARRHHGGG! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Den 14-01-2011 13:42, Anthony Robb skrev: Hello Mike Ian Corrigan recommends lemon oil as a pleasant, not too viscious cleaning liquid. It also, he reckons, gives wood a near invisible but protective coat. I haven't tried it but think it might be worth a try. The border pipes he made for Paul Martin are a visual and sonic delight so I'm very happy to take his word on this. Anthony Hi Anthony - and every one else ! Forgive me for being a little of a spoilsport with my warnings and explanations - but : Yes, lemon oil is an effective cleaning agent. However it is a bit more agressive that it may appear at first. Care should be taken to keep it off anything painted or lacquered and also it tends to break down many plastic-materials in a slow process that may not become noticed before tiny cracks begin to develop in the plastic long time after the lemon oil was used. Bo Albrechtsen -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 14 Jan 2011, Bo Albrechtsen wrote: /Julia is perfectly right/ in exclaiming her gh ! Thank you, I have been well trained! Vegetable oil such as the cold press, extra virgin etc in time any such oil will change from being an oil and into first a gummy substance ...which was known as a snotomer in the Polymer Research Unit in which I spent 10 years as a technician. As I've said before. Wonderful term, so descriptive and generally recognisable. Olive oil will solidify a lot slower than linseed oil but it will become sticky and gluey relatively fast Particularly when in contact with metals such as brass and nickel silver whose components are sometimes part of catalysts - ie they speed the process up. Which I'm convinced doesn't help. Paraffin oil/liquid paraffin etc etc is a mineral-oil product which is cheap, not drying and does not smell at all. It does tend to evaporate however very slowly over time I have observed a tendency for it to start causing rotting of the cotton threads that I use, a process I'm still keeping an eye on and I'm not drawing any conclusions yet. At present it's just something to bear in mind. Others disagree. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Hello Julia Bo Thanks for the warning. To be fair to Ian he's the sort of guy that doesn't laquer his pipes or use plastic mounts. He was recommending this purely for keeping natural wood and nickel silver clean and looking good. On the olive oil question those who used/use it (Clough, Caisley, Hillery, Nelson et al) were from the era when it was sold in 50ml bottles from the chemists to soften ear wax. It was/is probably the (almost) pure triester (between glycerol and oleic acid) and so being short on tasty bits (including minute bits of olive) it would have been reasonable to use. Mike Nelson still uses it and reckons if you look after your pipes/play them regularly it will be problem free. But, as Julia so rightly says, opinion is divided! Anyone remember a similar line in The Dosing of the Hoggs? A very kittle business. Anthony --- On Fri, 14/1/11, Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... To: 'Northumbrian Small Pipes' nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 14 January, 2011, 14:33 On 14 Jan 2011, Bo Albrechtsen wrote: . Care should be taken to keep it off anything painted or lacquered and also it tends to break down many plastic-materials in a slow process that may not become noticed before tiny cracks begin to develop in the plastic long time after the lemon oil was used. So possibly deleterious to alternative ivory unless you want that antique cracked chanter foot look! Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Den 14-01-2011 15:27, Julia Say skrev: snip... Paraffin oil/liquid paraffin etc etc is a mineral-oil product which is cheap, not drying and does not smell at all. It does tend to evaporate however very slowly over time I have observed a tendency for it to start causing rotting of the cotton threads that I use, a process I'm still keeping an eye on and I'm not drawing any conclusions yet. At present it's just something to bear in mind. Others disagree. Julia Maybe the cause could be a gradual build up of fatty-acid components in the cotton threading. Also slightly parallell to this is maybe the fact that even lightly tarred hemp rope or line has substantially less tensile strength than clean hemp rope. BoA who still chuckles at the antique cracked chanter foot look :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:31, Julia Say replied: ( a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . .) And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. It's one of those things that has no definitive answer. Almost every option has a possible disadvantage as Dorothy Parker pointed out.: 'Résumé' Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. I haven't found the beginning of this thread so I don't know what actual use is being proposed for the oil. Is it for use in the bore? There are historical sources mentioning the use of bore oil (almond, I think) but these are for flutes and recorders as I remember, where an oxidised coating (in a comparatively large bore) will cause virtually no problem and may actually be beneficial. The only historical treatise relevant to the present discussion is Hotteterre's Méthode pour la Musette containing comprehensive maintenance instructions for this smallpipe, all of which are directly applicable to NSPs. He makes no mention of oiling either bore or key-pads. I don't think this is likely to be an accidental omission from such comprehensive instructions. More likely perhaps, it was thought that the oils then available then were likely to bring more problems than benefit in a very narrow bore. I don't know whether anyone has tried playing in an oxygen-free environment. Nobody has yet commented on this. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Quantz swore by almond oil, and if Fritz's flute had suffered by it it would perhaps show in the historical record One problem is the speed of sound in nitrogen is not the same as in air. A way of coaxing the extra few cents out of a flat chanter would be to hook a nitrogen cylinder up to the bellows. Or helium if that isn't enough. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 14 January 2011 15:16 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:31, Julia Say replied: ( a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . .) And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. It's one of those things that has no definitive answer. Almost every option has a possible disadvantage as Dorothy Parker pointed out.: 'Résumé' Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. I haven't found the beginning of this thread so I don't know what actual use is being proposed for the oil. Is it for use in the bore? There are historical sources mentioning the use of bore oil (almond, I think) but these are for flutes and recorders as I remember, where an oxidised coating (in a comparatively large bore) will cause virtually no problem and may actually be beneficial. The only historical treatise relevant to the present discussion is Hotteterre's Méthode pour la Musette containing comprehensive maintenance instructions for this smallpipe, all of which are directly applicable to NSPs. He makes no mention of oiling either bore or key-pads. I don't think this is likely to be an accidental omission from such comprehensive instructions. More likely perhaps, it was thought that the oils then available then were likely to bring more problems than benefit in a very narrow bore. I don't know whether anyone has tried playing in an oxygen-free environment. Nobody has yet commented on this. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
