RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Joseph, You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Not sure what your point is, here, pardner. After all, I was saying this My point is that some slow people, like me, can't always tell right away when you are kidding (remember A Swedish Idea). Mafia-Godfather I-horsehead in movie director's bed. Get it? But I wasn't kidding... Anyway, enough of that. I hope so! They deserve them. At any rate, I have a little more information about the deal now than I did; your dire warnings are, IMHO, unfounded. Sure, there are some nasty implications for those poor souls still waiting for Godot^WIronflare to provide Oracle-level support for Orion, but even those are merely implications and not a fomral reality yet. Okay. Somehow, I don't think Karl is going to ever teach me the secret Ironflare handshake. Me either. Although I'm betting it involves lutefisk somehow. Those silly Finns! course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. Are you a BLIND troll, that's the real question. [snip, snippety snip snip snip!] BLIND and DUMB. You're slipping, not snipping, Joseph. Nah, I'm trying to have fun. That's an unfair critique of a phrase-based pun, you might say, and you're offending me greatly! I'm going to add you to my kill-file, report you to the FBI (in addition to the FBI, the CIA, and the NSA, and the local police), and send you a bottle of glue, because I can't afford a horse and that's the closest I can get. My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. Sure, could be. But isn't. :) I'm not trying to hold some special knowldge over your head, and it's quite possible that what I know is public knowledge, but until I confirm that, I ain't saying. Secret handshake and secret decoder ring... Well, okay - maybe I have a slight advantage because I talk to them online every so often, and I'm the guy who said Hey, I've got a server, orion needs support, they ain't doing it, so I will. Maybe that gets me a little more info every now and then, especially when I ask directly. In addition, I eat a LOT of Captain Crunch, and they have those neatoriffic toys... Doubt THAT - the whole reason they licensed Orion is because they found that they were getting the real tough problems and their lousy infrastructure wasn't set up for it. Not a matter of THEIR SKILL, mind you, but of the original thought that went into their misbegotten app server crap. Maybe so. What about Karl's pledge 6 months ago that hiring the right people was Ironflare's first order of business? They've hired one recently, or so I've heard. And I don't know who they hired, but I've heard the same thing. OTOH, maybe their hiring critieria is very strict - which I can understand. I'm really more or less on your side on this particular issue, but more on this later... I have confidence; however, most of my major (Fortune 500) clients have not shown confidence in products where the only two people in the world who understand the guts of it live 8,000 miles away and might get hit by a bolt of lightening at the same time. Something like, Oops, we regret to inform you that we cannot support your $30M startup because the only two people who can answer that question are unavailable. Ah ha! And this is where Oracle turns out to be a HUGE win for us (and Ironflare). Now, you don't have to rely on an inconsistent mailing list and two (maybe three) developers. Now you can say, Hey, got $40K? Buy Oracle, and you'll be off and running with a full support network. While it's possible OC4J could fork from Orion's codebase, the chances of a severe fork are very slim. (Yes, the chances are there, from what I understand.) Slim chances, of course, mean that it will definitely happen, and the sky will fall, and I *will* win a game of Civ:CTP before... um... the day ends. You seem to have inside knowledge about this. Does Oracle (or anyone besides Karl and Magnus) have a copy of the Orion Server source code? I'll leave that answer to the principals involved. I don't know WHAT they have, exactly. I would like to see Oracle at least attempt to hire some of the people around the world who contributed their valuable time to debugging Orion free of charge. NOT ME. I'm not looking for a job with Orionacle. Me either... but I'm not sure if this is your actual gripe. If it is, hey, um, wow... you're over-reacting by a lot, IMHO. It's a big part of my gripe. There's some sort of idea that there was/is a quid pro quo between free use of Orion and free testing/debugging by the user community. I don't agree with that, but let's say there is. Well, the game has now changed, that is, big bucks from Oracle. Let's play pretend, shall we? (This is called a
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Joseph, Generally, I agree, but... I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Agree. But most major customers avoid semi-open products because of the perception (right or wrong) that they can't purchase support, even if they have money to burn. Sure. Is Orion semi-open now? Because I've never seen anything of the sort, and I think I would have by now... I have argued that the orion-interest response is generally more accurate (than BEA, IBM Sun) because the big players must hide their embarassing flaws from the competition. This is why I believe Oracle MAY (not for sure! No flames please!) put pressure on Ironflare to be less forthcoming about internal flaws. Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. Stuck in the asylum, Jay At 03:42 PM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). No, BEA didn't challenge the claim. BEA refuses anyone (IBM, etc.) to publish performance specs for comparison purposes. The result was that Orion couldn't say We did this in X, and BEA did it in Y. Orion is hardly unique in this. Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Or Oracle... but wait, that might make the Oracle deal a win for Orion users. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I've done well without it. I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
At 02:18 AM 6/12/01 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Joseph, Generally, I agree, but... I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Agree. But most major customers avoid semi-open products because of the perception (right or wrong) that they can't purchase support, even if they have money to burn. Sure. Is Orion semi-open now? Because I've never seen anything of the sort, and I think I would have by now... My definition of semi-open: Free for development with no time expiration; not a time-limited trial. Pay for production. That is, products like Orion. I have argued that the orion-interest response is generally more accurate (than BEA, IBM Sun) because the big players must hide their embarassing flaws from the competition. This is why I believe Oracle MAY (not for sure! No flames please!) put pressure on Ironflare to be less forthcoming about internal flaws. Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. They may not have desks yet, but they can probably afford to order big, hand-carved, mahogony ones now. From your previous comment about looking at Oracle, let me cite an example about supporting integrated products. A couple of years ago, I found an error in Adrian Cockroft's book, Sun Performance and Tuning regarding the formulas for shared memory and semaphore settings in etc/system. Of course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. SunOS versions have a sort of mixed Unix ancestry of BSD and SystemV -- it's hard to tell for sure where one begins and the other ends. Unfortunately, Oracle handles resource contention for multiple users in a multiprocessor system differently, depending on whether it's running on BSD or SystemV. I'm not looking to start a SunOS/Oracle discussion here. If you disagree, just assume I'm crazy, and let's take that war off line. You can also set some things in Oracle's init.ora file that, presumably, influence performance (such as the number of spin locks, etc). Which takes precedence (etc/system or init.ora) isn't clear. Oracle provides some recommended settings for given Solaris configurations, but I didn't find an explanation of how to juggle the values. (Again, just assume I'm nuts and that this is true for the sake of argument). Because of the many real world problems with Oracle on Solaris, they created a special joint team to resolve issues. I never found any of them who could accurately explain this problem. Before Sun and Oracle fans join the Armstrong Barbecue Party, no, I didn't spend years looking. My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. For example, WebLogic does a nice job (so I'm told) of handling transactional integrity issues for redundant, clustered EJBs when the database connection pool goes down after a database update is made and before a client response goes out from the EJB container. I have not explored this kind of issue with the Orion/Oracle combination. (There are already threads on this, such as clustering two orions on the same machine). Karl/Magnus have not, apparently, hired the people on the Ironflare side to free them up to address such questions. Just because Oracle has a support infrastucture, call center, help desk, etc, does not mean that Oracle has anyone who can deal with the really tough problems. Before getting flamed again, I am NOT picking on Orion/Oracle here. I believe orion-interest and
Re: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Their j2ee implementations seemed like a bunch of open source glued together. Throw in the oddDuck idea of running ejb's inside the db server and it's no wonder they threw it away. Perhaps because they couldn't give it away. _ Get your free E-mail at http://www.ireland.com
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Not sure what your point is, here, pardner. After all, I was saying this is why Orionsupport isn't directly affiliated, so that we wouldn't have to worry about that in any case... and then you say something that leads me to believe you took the exact wrong meaning. You've been doing that a lot; this kind of dedication takes a peculiar sort of effort. The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. They may not have desks yet, but they can probably afford to order big, hand-carved, mahogony ones now. I hope so! They deserve them. At any rate, I have a little more information about the deal now than I did; your dire warnings are, IMHO, unfounded. Sure, there are some nasty implications for those poor souls still waiting for Godot^WIronflare to provide Oracle-level support for Orion, but even those are merely implications and not a fomral reality yet. From your previous comment about looking at Oracle, let me cite an example about supporting integrated products. A couple of years ago, I found an error in Adrian Cockroft's book, Sun Performance and Tuning regarding the formulas for shared memory and semaphore settings in etc/system. Of course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. Are you a BLIND troll, that's the real question. [snip, snippety snip snip snip!] My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. Sure, could be. But isn't. :) I'm not trying to hold some special knowldge over your head, and it's quite possible that what I know is public knowledge, but until I confirm that, I ain't saying. Karl/Magnus have not, apparently, hired the people on the Ironflare side to free them up to address such questions. Just because Oracle has a support infrastucture, call center, help desk, etc, does not mean that Oracle has anyone who can deal with the really tough problems. Doubt THAT - the whole reason they licensed Orion is because they found that they were getting the real tough problems and their lousy infrastructure wasn't set up for it. Not a matter of THEIR SKILL, mind you, but of the original thought that went into their misbegotten app server crap. Before getting flamed again, I am NOT picking on Orion/Oracle here. I believe orion-interest and orionsupport are more responsive and accurate, generally, than the big companies. I would still have great confidence in just about any Orion/Oracle combination. We shall, as you say, *shrug* see. You sure? Why do you? I would like to see Oracle at least attempt to hire some of the people around the world who contributed their valuable time to debugging Orion free of charge. NOT ME. I'm not looking for a job with Orionacle. Me either... but I'm not sure if this is your actual gripe. If it is, hey, um, wow... you're over-reacting by a lot, IMHO. --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
RE: Oracle deal gag
From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Seriously, smartass, I'd like a 'yes' or 'no' answer from you: do you really think the CIA doesn't monitor the web? I'm not a smartass. I'm just out to get you :-) From Catch-22: They're trying to kill me, Yossarian told him calmly. No one's trying to kill you, Clevinger cried. Then why are they shooting at me? Yossarian asked. They're shooting at *everyone*, Clevinger answered. They're trying to kill everyone. And what difference does that make? The difference between cynicism and paranoia is the difference between: The CIA is monitoring email on the internet. The CIA is monitoring *my* email on the internet. I can, with almost complete confidence, assure you that nobody at Ironflare is censoring your email. From longtime observation of this list, I have discovered that the mailing list software Sucks Bigtime. I'm sorry to say this, because someone at Ironflare probably put a significant amount of time into it in a noble but misguided attempt to show off the Orion server. Unfortunately natural brilliance and a thorough understanding of J2EE do not automatically translate into detailed knowledge of ESMTP and the specific manner in which the hundreds of mail agents out there butcher it. The consequence is that with *frequent* occurance mail is lost, mail is delivered out of order, the list blacks out for weekends at a time, vacation messages get sent to everyone, mail senders get back dozens of bounce messages, etc. I started that thread you mentioned (Orion Team Needs New List Software), and it's still very much true. I suspect that vanity prevents Ironflare from converting to Mailman or some other mature package. As to why Karl never responded to your message about licensing violation, hey, maybe he's too busy working on the broken list software. Or more likely, Orion. Think about it. What's a two-person company in Sweden going to do about somebody 10,000 miles away abusing a $1500 license? The practical limitations of enforcement pretty much mean that anyone that wants to can steal the software. For a small company and a relatively inexpensive product you just have to hope that there are enough honest customers out there to pay your bills. Fortunately it looks like there are. I don't understand why you think the Oracle deal is anything but a fanstastic coup for both us (the Orion community) and Ironflare. It validates the product, puts a significant amount of $$$ in the pockets of Karl Magnus, makes it a lot easier for us to sell Orion to clients, and *radically* increases our market value as experts with The Oracle J2EE Solution as well as the obscure Swedish app server we know and love. Larry and Karl make a deal, and suddenly my resume gets a steroid injection! I couldn't be happier! Will Oracle draw from this community? Send them a resume and find out! What kind of validation are you looking for? Sure we (the users) spend a lot of time debugging the app server - but hey, nobody is forcing us to run the autoupdater. And a lot of people, myself included, consider this just the least we can offer to Ironflare for providing us with a free server. Free for noncommercial use has bought them a lot more than $1500 worth of my time, and I'm quite content about it. Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Joseph B. Ottinger wrote: On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: [...] Greetings, I respectfully request that those carrying on the conspiracy thread of discussion please take it off-list. It has comprised, I estimate, at least 50% of the orion-interest list the past few days. Thanks! Chris Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Joseph, At 12:57 PM 6/12/01 -0500, you wrote: On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Not sure what your point is, here, pardner. After all, I was saying this is why Orionsupport isn't directly affiliated, so that we wouldn't have to worry about that in any case... and then you say something that leads me to believe you took the exact wrong meaning. You've been doing that a lot; this kind of dedication takes a peculiar sort of effort. My point is that some slow people, like me, can't always tell right away when you are kidding (remember A Swedish Idea). Mafia-Godfather I-horsehead in movie director's bed. Get it? The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. They may not have desks yet, but they can probably afford to order big, hand-carved, mahogony ones now. I hope so! They deserve them. At any rate, I have a little more information about the deal now than I did; your dire warnings are, IMHO, unfounded. Sure, there are some nasty implications for those poor souls still waiting for Godot^WIronflare to provide Oracle-level support for Orion, but even those are merely implications and not a fomral reality yet. Okay. Somehow, I don't think Karl is going to ever teach me the secret Ironflare handshake. From your previous comment about looking at Oracle, let me cite an example about supporting integrated products. A couple of years ago, I found an error in Adrian Cockroft's book, Sun Performance and Tuning regarding the formulas for shared memory and semaphore settings in etc/system. Of course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. Are you a BLIND troll, that's the real question. [snip, snippety snip snip snip!] BLIND and DUMB. You're slipping, not snipping, Joseph. My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. Sure, could be. But isn't. :) I'm not trying to hold some special knowldge over your head, and it's quite possible that what I know is public knowledge, but until I confirm that, I ain't saying. Secret handshake and secret decoder ring... Karl/Magnus have not, apparently, hired the people on the Ironflare side to free them up to address such questions. Just because Oracle has a support infrastucture, call center, help desk, etc, does not mean that Oracle has anyone who can deal with the really tough problems. Doubt THAT - the whole reason they licensed Orion is because they found that they were getting the real tough problems and their lousy infrastructure wasn't set up for it. Not a matter of THEIR SKILL, mind you, but of the original thought that went into their misbegotten app server crap. Maybe so. What about Karl's pledge 6 months ago that hiring the right people was Ironflare's first order of business? They've hired one recently, or so I've heard. Before getting flamed again, I am NOT picking on Orion/Oracle here. I believe orion-interest and orionsupport are more responsive and accurate, generally, than the big companies. I would still have great confidence in just about any Orion/Oracle combination. We shall, as you say, *shrug* see. You sure? Why do you? I have confidence; however, most of my major (Fortune 500) clients have not shown confidence in products where the only two people in the world who understand the guts of it live 8,000 miles away and might get hit by a bolt of lightening at the same time. Something like, Oops, we regret to inform you that we cannot support your $30M startup because the only two people who can answer that question are unavailable. You seem to have inside knowledge about this. Does Oracle (or anyone besides Karl and Magnus) have a copy of the Orion Server source code? I would like to see Oracle at least attempt to hire some of the people around the world who contributed their valuable time to debugging Orion free of charge. NOT ME. I'm not looking for a job with Orionacle. Me either... but I'm not sure if this is your actual gripe. If it is, hey, um, wow... you're over-reacting by a lot,
RE: Oracle deal gag
I apologize to the group for responding in kind to a personal flame that was off topic. I am well aware it's off topic, but you and Jeff made a personal attack. As usual, you have avoided the facts. I'm happy to take this one off line with you, just as soon as you publicly apologize for your personal, public attack on me. I can back up everything I stated. Until you dispute one fact that I wrote, I suggest you are the ones in the fantasy world. So, I challenge you here and now to dispute one of those facts, or apologize publicly. At 11:47 PM 6/10/01 -0400, you wrote: Well, you're kinda asking for it, but your credentials clearly show why you're so paranoid and are on very, umm, thin ground when it comes to mental well being. We've all tried presenting the facts to you regarding the Oracle deal, but all we seem to be getting in respose is a descent into your own personal madness. How about summing up the problems you have in a few short lines that won't cause cynics like me to laugh or respond so unpleasantly? If you had legitimate concerns that made people think 'ohyeah!' then I'm sure you'd get a suitably well considered reply. I wouldn't hold my breath though for any kind of 'official' reply as you've shown them why they should never reply to people on this list. Hani On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Even paranoid people have enemies. I've never suggested a conspiracy. The response I got from Karl was an immediate reaction to my comment that their testing was done for free. Now testing/bug reporting by the open community will directly help Oracle. Try dealing with facts. Six months ago, Karl stated they were hiring more people. There have been several threads about their lack of support since then. They still have only hired, maybe, a few (one?) additional employees. They seem to have no interest in collecting for production licenses. Out of the blue comes a deal with Oracle and they don't even announce it on the site. But since you think you're so frigging smart, let's compare our knowledge of the US intelligence community. My brother-in-law broke the code for the Unabomber's diary. No kidding. Check it out for yourself. His name is Mike Birch. He's retired US Navy and now an FBI cryptographer. He lives in Glen Bernie, MD, just outside Baltimore. You want his phone number? He was to testify in California, just before the Unabomber confessed. (see http://www.cnn.com/US/9712/27/unabomb.diary/) Mike's married to Florence Erolin, my wife's sister. I named our corporation Erolin, Inc after their family name. I assure you, the US intelligence community monitors the web constantly, and not just for viruses. They do tap phones. They do forge documents, etc, etc etc. From 1986 to the early 90's, I held a Top Secret SBI clearance in the US Air Force and was a security manager and foreign disclosure officer. When I managed the sale of $300M of F-16 jet engines to Egypt, there was a sizeable fund (millions) for bribes. I've talked to people in military intelligence who monitor phones for a living. What are your credentials, dumbass? I also have contacts in the World Bank. Ever hear of them? Are you stupid enough to think that they just give out charity loans to struggling countries? My wife dated a CIA employee overseas who worked at a front company in her country. His job was to psychologically evaluate returning field agents. I wonder why they might need psychological help? Are you suggesting that the US intelligence community (CIA, FBI and NSA) are not monitoring Web communications? You probably think they don't fly spy planes near China, send classified satellites up on the space shuttle, have the ability to tell you what kind of cigarette you're smoking from a satellite 90 miles above you, destroy the economies of countries, etc. Surprise! They've been doing that and more for many years. You probably don't believe corporate espionage exists, either. Seriously, smartass, I'd like a 'yes' or 'no' answer from you: do you really think the CIA doesn't monitor the web? Sorry about going off topic, but I'd like to avoid sarcasm and, please, just address the facts about the Oracle deal. At 02:30 PM 6/10/01 -0700, you wrote: From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...paranoia...] Have you ever considered that maybe your communications are being intercepted and preprocessed by a CIA computer? Do you hear clicking noises every time you pick up the phone? You have accidentally sumbled across The Swedish Conspiracy. Ironflare is actually a front company for arms smuggling: It is a little known fact that Larry Ellison converted to a radical reactionary Islamic sect recently. Oracle purchases app servers from Ironflare, Ironflare uses the money to purchase Kalishnakov rifles from nearby Russia, and a renegade CIA group smuggles them into Afghanistan to support the
RE: Oracle deal gag
We've all tried presenting the facts to you regarding the Oracle deal, but all we seem to be getting in respose is a descent into your own personal madness. How about summing up the problems you have in a few short lines that won't cause cynics like me to laugh or respond so unpleasantly? Hani In spite of your personal attacks on my mental condition, I will try one more time to deal with facts and give yet another summary. Before doing so, let me state that yesterday I made a third attempt to post my response to Karl. I also sent it directly to Mike Cannon-Brookes asking him to post it. So, three times now I've tried. Let me ask you and the group, how many times must I try and fail to post that message before you will believe that it's getting blocked? Seriously, just pick a number and I'll try that many times. Here's the summary: - 6 months ago (Dec 7), Karl stated, resources will initially be spent more on building the organization and hiring the right people than would be necessary if we didn't make the expansion. - Since then, there have been several threads about lack of support: www.orionserver.com down again (Dec 13), What's going on with Orion? (Jan 4), Is the List alive? (Jan 4), Any news from Orion yet?? (Jan 15), Orion Team Needs New List Software (Mar 14), Impossible getting the attention of the orion (support) team. Are they still around? (Mar 19), Is the list dead? (Apr 25) - Since then, hiring the right people has not occurred. - On Apr 18, Randy Kemp suggested Ironflare contact MySQL, which is also in Sweden (A Swedish Idea). Like me, Randy was ridiculed by people, like Hani, who used terms such as bizarre, this whole ridiculous discussion and fairy tale. - On Apr 23, I reported a production licensing violation directly to Karl. He did not respond. - On Apr 24, I reported the production licensing violation to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl responded, stating, We'll check into it. - On May 8, I asked Karl for a status on the licensing violation, but to date, have gotten no response. - On Jun 6, Bryan Young posted the following to this group: I just read about Orion being used as the base code for their 9i app server. - On Jun 6, I responded, refering to the A Swedish Idea thread and stating, I TOLD YOU SO. I also stated, I admire the way they've managed to build a decent product without having to hire testers. - On Jun 7, the day after my post, Karl responded via orion-interest, stating, We've never been in it for the money, but that doesn't mean that you can survive in this society forever without having any money. - On Jun 7, I tried to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - On Jun 8, I made my second attempt to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - On Jun 10, I made my third attempt to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - I have tried three times to post my response to Karl, and been called mentally unstable for suggesting that they might be blocking negative comments. - Neither Ironflare nor Oracle have ever really announced their relationship. It's not announced at www.orionserver.com. Go to http://www.oracle.com and look at their JavaOne pages and search for Orion. It's buried in the user manual, but not announced. So, my conclusions are: - Ironflare/Evermind has not hired testers or other staff as promised 6 months ago. They don't have to, because the user community does all of that (and more) for them. - Ironflare is in it, at least in part, for big money; otherwise, they would have collected from the production license violator. - Ironflare will leave you hanging if you report license violations. - Ironflare may be censoring messages. I can't lay it out much better than that. So, attack one of these facts and quit challenging my mental condition. From the asylum, Jay
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
Re: Oracle deal gag
Wrong, it is not CIA, but the Borg who have intercepted and censored some messages. That also explains the delay on this list, since a subspace call takes a while to travel. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. Johan - Original Message - From: Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:30 PM Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...paranoia...] Have you ever considered that maybe your communications are being intercepted and preprocessed by a CIA computer? Do you hear clicking noises every time you pick up the phone? You have accidentally sumbled across The Swedish Conspiracy. Ironflare is actually a front company for arms smuggling: It is a little known fact that Larry Ellison converted to a radical reactionary Islamic sect recently. Oracle purchases app servers from Ironflare, Ironflare uses the money to purchase Kalishnakov rifles from nearby Russia, and a renegade CIA group smuggles them into Afghanistan to support the Taliban. Magnus and Karl are ficticious identities; in fact their names are acronyms for Make Arms Gifts Neglecting Upgrading Software and Keep Armstrong's Replies Limited. Now that you have now exposed yourself and your knowledge, the Men In Black will be coming for you soon. Good luck! Jeff Schnitzer
Re: Oracle deal gag
What is your point? Johan - Original Message - From: Jay Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag We've all tried presenting the facts to you regarding the Oracle deal, but all we seem to be getting in respose is a descent into your own personal madness. How about summing up the problems you have in a few short lines that won't cause cynics like me to laugh or respond so unpleasantly? Hani In spite of your personal attacks on my mental condition, I will try one more time to deal with facts and give yet another summary. Before doing so, let me state that yesterday I made a third attempt to post my response to Karl. I also sent it directly to Mike Cannon-Brookes asking him to post it. So, three times now I've tried. Let me ask you and the group, how many times must I try and fail to post that message before you will believe that it's getting blocked? Seriously, just pick a number and I'll try that many times. Here's the summary: - 6 months ago (Dec 7), Karl stated, resources will initially be spent more on building the organization and hiring the right people than would be necessary if we didn't make the expansion. - Since then, there have been several threads about lack of support: www.orionserver.com down again (Dec 13), What's going on with Orion? (Jan 4), Is the List alive? (Jan 4), Any news from Orion yet?? (Jan 15), Orion Team Needs New List Software (Mar 14), Impossible getting the attention of the orion (support) team. Are they still around? (Mar 19), Is the list dead? (Apr 25) - Since then, hiring the right people has not occurred. - On Apr 18, Randy Kemp suggested Ironflare contact MySQL, which is also in Sweden (A Swedish Idea). Like me, Randy was ridiculed by people, like Hani, who used terms such as bizarre, this whole ridiculous discussion and fairy tale. - On Apr 23, I reported a production licensing violation directly to Karl. He did not respond. - On Apr 24, I reported the production licensing violation to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl responded, stating, We'll check into it. - On May 8, I asked Karl for a status on the licensing violation, but to date, have gotten no response. - On Jun 6, Bryan Young posted the following to this group: I just read about Orion being used as the base code for their 9i app server. - On Jun 6, I responded, refering to the A Swedish Idea thread and stating, I TOLD YOU SO. I also stated, I admire the way they've managed to build a decent product without having to hire testers. - On Jun 7, the day after my post, Karl responded via orion-interest, stating, We've never been in it for the money, but that doesn't mean that you can survive in this society forever without having any money. - On Jun 7, I tried to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - On Jun 8, I made my second attempt to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - On Jun 10, I made my third attempt to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - I have tried three times to post my response to Karl, and been called mentally unstable for suggesting that they might be blocking negative comments. - Neither Ironflare nor Oracle have ever really announced their relationship. It's not announced at www.orionserver.com. Go to http://www.oracle.com and look at their JavaOne pages and search for Orion. It's buried in the user manual, but not announced. So, my conclusions are: - Ironflare/Evermind has not hired testers or other staff as promised 6 months ago. They don't have to, because the user community does all of that (and more) for them. - Ironflare is in it, at least in part, for big money; otherwise, they would have collected from the production license violator. - Ironflare will leave you hanging if you report license violations. - Ironflare may be censoring messages. I can't lay it out much better than that. So, attack one of these facts and quit challenging my mental condition. From the asylum, Jay
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
J, I am an oracle customer. All you have to do is call support, and they answer questions about orion. They also have good attempt at documentation: http://technet.oracle.com/docs/tech/java/oc4j/htdocs/getstart.htm#1016486 You will have to create an account with otn, but that's pretty easy to do by going to : http://technet.oracle.com/index.html, and clicking the membership link. Its free. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:22 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag
Mmmkay, this is a little late, but hey - when have I been known to shut up? On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original thread (RE: Oracle deal) also went through fine, but none of them were critical of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a pebble), were complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the thread was being censored. Good thing we've never heard of paranoia. Oops, now we have. I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: The purpose of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to communicate with us. I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that big brother is watching and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest. Dadgum, there's that paranoia thing again. If you've read the mailing list archives, you'll see plenty of criticism of Ironflare, most of it deserved, and none of it censored that I'm aware of. And I've even sent some of it. As far as Karl's statement... it seems like you've an agenda, and you're using a National Enquirer-like ability to read between lines. Hi, how are you doing is not I'M GOING TO KILL YOU! and Orion-interest is a sharing area between users, not a channel to communicate with us is not We hate everything you say that we don't agree with, and will censor it. Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement? Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this quiet and is now attempting damage control. Damage control? Why? What damage, exactly has been caused? Ironflare hasn't been sold; neither has Orion. The only damage I see is possibly between a few sets of ears. As far as I can tell, this is ALL good for Ironflare; people who want real J2EE and want a real company backing it can buy OC4J and get the best of both worlds - support and quality. (Oh no, what a horrifying thought, eh?) and people who want to stick with pure Orion (i.e., those of us who don't want to run Oracle, or don't need Oracle's support layer) can stick with what we have. What horror. If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have never been allowed in this interest group. Man, you ARE paranoid. Jay At 04:37 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: J, There have been lags and blackholes on the list last week. I suspect this is because the two gents have been in San Francisco in the last week, and have not been unable to keep up the maintenance. Sunday and Monday, and some of Tuesday lastweek there were no messages. Its a list problem...don't blame Orion. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of J Armstrong Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:50 PM To: Orion-Interest Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Oracle deal gag Just for fun, try bitching about the original issue. I tried twice (two days ago and one day ago) to respond to Karl Avendal's response to me on this thread and it's not showing up. At 12:48 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: Haha, I know... Hani just said we should bitch so I did :P - Phillip --- elephantwalker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phil, Orion also supports do's, even though the latest draft doesn't include do's (an earlier draft had major sections on do's). Phil, this is a moving target, and these guys will fix their ejb 2.0. Please log the references issue and bidirectional relations problem with bugzilla, they will fix it. Regards, the elephantwalker __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
Re: Oracle deal gag
So, my conclusions are: - Ironflare/Evermind has not hired testers or other staff as promised 6 months ago. They don't have to, because the user community does all of that (and more) for them. Hiring testers for the sake of hiring testers (not a knock on testers)is hit-and-miss anyway, but suppose they did hire testers? I suspect that many folks on this list would still test orion just as rigourously as they do now. I get paid regardless of whether I test Orion. I test Orion because I like it. If, by testing Orion I can get a better product, then I will test Orion. I don't HAVE to use Orion. I WANT to use it. Do you like the product? - Ironflare is in it, at least in part, for big money; otherwise, they would have collected from the production license violator. Every company is in it, to one degree or another, for the money. My consultancy is in it for the money - but we started it because we wanted to do our work OUR way which we now do. The money just happens to go along with it. Ironflare wanted to write an application server and that was only possible, in their view, by starting their own company. They need money, too, as Karl explained. If Oracle came to my company and said Hey, we'd like to license some of that software you've been writing for a nice sum of cash - I would say You Bet!. What's wrong with that? Nothing! - Ironflare will leave you hanging if you report license violations. When you reported the license violations, what was Ironflare supposed to do? I don't know the nature of how you found the violations or who is doing the violating, but it seems to me that once you report it, then you would be finished with your task. - Ironflare may be censoring messages. You lay out your facts above - but given other experiences with this list (I briefly mention mine in a previous posting that quite frankly hasn't come through yet) I can't draw the same conclusions. Sorry. I can't lay it out much better than that. So, attack one of these facts and quit challenging my mental condition. From the asylum, Jay --- Johan Fredriksson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is your point? Johan - Original Message - From: Jay Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag We've all tried presenting the facts to you regarding the Oracle deal, but all we seem to be getting in respose is a descent into your own personal madness. How about summing up the problems you have in a few short lines that won't cause cynics like me to laugh or respond so unpleasantly? Hani In spite of your personal attacks on my mental condition, I will try one more time to deal with facts and give yet another summary. Before doing so, let me state that yesterday I made a third attempt to post my response to Karl. I also sent it directly to Mike Cannon-Brookes asking him to post it. So, three times now I've tried. Let me ask you and the group, how many times must I try and fail to post that message before you will believe that it's getting blocked? Seriously, just pick a number and I'll try that many times. Here's the summary: - 6 months ago (Dec 7), Karl stated, resources will initially be spent more on building the organization and hiring the right people than would be necessary if we didn't make the expansion. - Since then, there have been several threads about lack of support: www.orionserver.com down again (Dec 13), What's going on with Orion? (Jan 4), Is the List alive? (Jan 4), Any news from Orion yet?? (Jan 15), Orion Team Needs New List Software (Mar 14), Impossible getting the attention of the orion (support) team. Are they still around? (Mar 19), Is the list dead? (Apr 25) - Since then, hiring the right people has not occurred. - On Apr 18, Randy Kemp suggested Ironflare contact MySQL, which is also in Sweden (A Swedish Idea). Like me, Randy was ridiculed by people, like Hani, who used terms such as bizarre, this whole ridiculous discussion and fairy tale. - On Apr 23, I reported a production licensing violation directly to Karl. He did not respond. - On Apr 24, I reported the production licensing violation to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl responded, stating, We'll check into it. - On May 8, I asked Karl for a status on the licensing violation, but to date, have gotten no response. - On Jun 6, Bryan Young posted the following to this group: I just read about Orion being used as the base code for their 9i app server. - On Jun 6, I responded, refering to the A Swedish Idea thread and stating, I TOLD YOU SO. I also stated, I admire the way they've managed to build a decent product without having to hire testers. - On Jun 7, the day after my post, Karl responded via orion-interest, stating, We've never been in it for the money, but that doesn't mean that you
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
If I recall correctly, BEA did not challenge them (Ironflare/Evermind)with any numbers of their own, they just wanted them to remove their BEA reference. That would have appeared to have been just an action by BEA spin doctors and the legal department. So I will be interested when Oracle runs its J2EE container (i.e. Orion) vs BEA. I suspect, by the way, that Oracle will handle its users concerns. They probably have a number of developers who are up-to-snuff on Orion. It remains to be seen, but if a company wants a name-brand, investor-friendly product, I would happily recomend they use Oracle over BEA or WAS - or that they at least bring them in for the running. --- Jay Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet! __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
RE: Oracle deal gag
Enough! -Original Message- From: Johan Fredriksson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:40 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: Oracle deal gag What is your point? Johan - Original Message - From: Jay Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag We've all tried presenting the facts to you regarding the Oracle deal, but all we seem to be getting in respose is a descent into your own personal madness. How about summing up the problems you have in a few short lines that won't cause cynics like me to laugh or respond so unpleasantly? Hani In spite of your personal attacks on my mental condition, I will try one more time to deal with facts and give yet another summary. Before doing so, let me state that yesterday I made a third attempt to post my response to Karl. I also sent it directly to Mike Cannon-Brookes asking him to post it. So, three times now I've tried. Let me ask you and the group, how many times must I try and fail to post that message before you will believe that it's getting blocked? Seriously, just pick a number and I'll try that many times. Here's the summary: - 6 months ago (Dec 7), Karl stated, resources will initially be spent more on building the organization and hiring the right people than would be necessary if we didn't make the expansion. - Since then, there have been several threads about lack of support: www.orionserver.com down again (Dec 13), What's going on with Orion? (Jan 4), Is the List alive? (Jan 4), Any news from Orion yet?? (Jan 15), Orion Team Needs New List Software (Mar 14), Impossible getting the attention of the orion (support) team. Are they still around? (Mar 19), Is the list dead? (Apr 25) - Since then, hiring the right people has not occurred. - On Apr 18, Randy Kemp suggested Ironflare contact MySQL, which is also in Sweden (A Swedish Idea). Like me, Randy was ridiculed by people, like Hani, who used terms such as bizarre, this whole ridiculous discussion and fairy tale. - On Apr 23, I reported a production licensing violation directly to Karl. He did not respond. - On Apr 24, I reported the production licensing violation to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karl responded, stating, We'll check into it. - On May 8, I asked Karl for a status on the licensing violation, but to date, have gotten no response. - On Jun 6, Bryan Young posted the following to this group: I just read about Orion being used as the base code for their 9i app server. - On Jun 6, I responded, refering to the A Swedish Idea thread and stating, I TOLD YOU SO. I also stated, I admire the way they've managed to build a decent product without having to hire testers. - On Jun 7, the day after my post, Karl responded via orion-interest, stating, We've never been in it for the money, but that doesn't mean that you can survive in this society forever without having any money. - On Jun 7, I tried to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - On Jun 8, I made my second attempt to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - On Jun 10, I made my third attempt to respond to Karl via orion-interest. - I have tried three times to post my response to Karl, and been called mentally unstable for suggesting that they might be blocking negative comments. - Neither Ironflare nor Oracle have ever really announced their relationship. It's not announced at www.orionserver.com. Go to http://www.oracle.com and look at their JavaOne pages and search for Orion. It's buried in the user manual, but not announced. So, my conclusions are: - Ironflare/Evermind has not hired testers or other staff as promised 6 months ago. They don't have to, because the user community does all of that (and more) for them. - Ironflare is in it, at least in part, for big money; otherwise, they would have collected from the production license violator. - Ironflare will leave you hanging if you report license violations. - Ironflare may be censoring messages. I can't lay it out much better than that. So, attack one of these facts and quit challenging my mental condition. From the asylum, Jay
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). No, BEA didn't challenge the claim. BEA refuses anyone (IBM, etc.) to publish performance specs for comparison purposes. The result was that Orion couldn't say We did this in X, and BEA did it in Y. Orion is hardly unique in this. Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Or Oracle... but wait, that might make the Oracle deal a win for Orion users. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I've done well without it. I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet! --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
RE: Oracle deal gag
Wow, I never realized engineers had become so immature! Can we stop filling our mailboxes with junk? Get off the stupid list if you're so unhappy! You have a choice! Stay on the boat and can it, or get off the boat to something that will make you happier! R Robert S. Sfeir Director of Software Development PERCEPTICON corporation, in Joint Venture With JTransit San Francisco, CA 94123 pw - http://www.percepticon.com/ jw - http://jtransit.com e- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
EW, Great news, seriously. Do you know whether or not the same/similar documentation is or will be available on orion-support.com or orionserver.com? Jay At 10:53 AM 6/11/01 -0700, you wrote: J, I am an oracle customer. All you have to do is call support, and they answer questions about orion. They also have good attempt at documentation: http://technet.oracle.com/docs/tech/java/oc4j/htdocs/getstart.htm#1016486 You will have to create an account with otn, but that's pretty easy to do by going to : http://technet.oracle.com/index.html, and clicking the membership link. Its free. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:22 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Joseph, Generally, I agree, but... I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Agree. But most major customers avoid semi-open products because of the perception (right or wrong) that they can't purchase support, even if they have money to burn. I have argued that the orion-interest response is generally more accurate (than BEA, IBM Sun) because the big players must hide their embarassing flaws from the competition. This is why I believe Oracle MAY (not for sure! No flames please!) put pressure on Ironflare to be less forthcoming about internal flaws. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Stuck in the asylum, Jay At 03:42 PM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). No, BEA didn't challenge the claim. BEA refuses anyone (IBM, etc.) to publish performance specs for comparison purposes. The result was that Orion couldn't say We did this in X, and BEA did it in Y. Orion is hardly unique in this. Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Or Oracle... but wait, that might make the Oracle deal a win for Orion users. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I've done well without it. I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet! --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://adjacency.org/
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
You might also want to look at the following link for how to papers http://otn.oracle.com/products/jdev/content.html Near the bottom you'll see: JDeveloper 3.2 Technical Information HTMLHow To Deploy a BC4J Application to the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container HTMLHow To Develop EJB Session Beans and Deploy Them to the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container HTMLHow To Develop Entity Beans and Deploy Them to the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container HTMLHow To Remotely Debug a Java Servlet on the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container Don -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of elephantwalker Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 11:53 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. J, I am an oracle customer. All you have to do is call support, and they answer questions about orion. They also have good attempt at documentation: http://technet.oracle.com/docs/tech/java/oc4j/htdocs/getstart.htm#1016486 You will have to create an account with otn, but that's pretty easy to do by going to : http://technet.oracle.com/index.html, and clicking the membership link. Its free. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:22 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag
EW, The message to which you replied has a slightly different title and is from my alternate email address ([EMAIL PROTECTED], not [EMAIL PROTECTED]). It went through just fine. After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original thread (RE: Oracle deal) also went through fine, but none of them were critical of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a pebble), were complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the thread was being censored. I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: The purpose of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to communicate with us. I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that big brother is watching and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest. Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement? Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this quiet and is now attempting damage control. If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have never been allowed in this interest group. Jay At 04:37 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: J, There have been lags and blackholes on the list last week. I suspect this is because the two gents have been in San Francisco in the last week, and have not been unable to keep up the maintenance. Sunday and Monday, and some of Tuesday lastweek there were no messages. Its a list problem...don't blame Orion. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of J Armstrong Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:50 PM To: Orion-Interest Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Oracle deal gag Just for fun, try bitching about the original issue. I tried twice (two days ago and one day ago) to respond to Karl Avendal's response to me on this thread and it's not showing up. At 12:48 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: Haha, I know... Hani just said we should bitch so I did :P - Phillip --- elephantwalker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phil, Orion also supports do's, even though the latest draft doesn't include do's (an earlier draft had major sections on do's). Phil, this is a moving target, and these guys will fix their ejb 2.0. Please log the references issue and bidirectional relations problem with bugzilla, they will fix it. Regards, the elephantwalker __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: Oracle deal gag
From: Jay Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] EW, [snip] After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original thread (RE: Oracle deal) also went through fine, but none of them were critical of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a pebble), were complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the thread was being censored. Have you considered the remote possibility that everybody else frequenting this forum might just happen to not share your opinion regarding the deal? I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: The purpose of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to communicate with us. Sounds fair enough. Paying licensees enjoy the benefits of having a support channel directly to Ironflare. Non-paying users enjoy the benefits of having a public forum in which to discuss issues regarding the Orion product. The state being as it is, at Ironflare, with very few employees so far, and the focus being on development, I would find it surprising to see either Karl or Magnus spending lots of time in this forum. Should a significant portion of the users of this forum come to the conclusion that this forum is unfit for its intended purpose, there is a very simple solution: Start another one, e.g an egroup. I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that big brother is watching and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest. Oh dear. Let's see if this one comes through, to test the theory. Ironflare: - When it comes to announcing major changes and/or updates in the Orion product and/or the Ironflare company, you, at this time, suck! - Your official website is among the most static ones I have ever seen. You should put more effort in publishing current information regarding the product and the company on a regular basis, as in daily or at least weekly, on the website. If the irony wasn't obvious; I, for one, find the very idea that Ironflare would try to censor this forum ludicrous. I would be _extremely_ surprised to find my criticism above being removed for any reason. I would be happy to receive any feedback from Ironflare regarding it, though, but that seems unlikely at this time, this forum not being an official channel. I have found that an email directly to Ironflare tends to get more attention. I am not saying that I wouldn't like Ironflare to more actively participate in this forum. On the contrary, I think that would be great! But _not_ if it affects development and bug squashing adversely. _DO_, by all means, update the website more regularly, though! Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement? Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this quiet and is now attempting damage control. Could you please elaborate on exactly how you came to that conclusion? If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have never been allowed in this interest group. Ridiculous. It might be that I am a Swede myself, but to me it just seems totally unlikely, from what I have heard and read about Karl Magnus. Let's hope I am not proven to be wrong. That would be a sad day indeed. Jay Best regards, David
RE: Oracle deal gag
Jay, Might I say in advance that I've read your posts in the past and they are good, however this one is severly off the mark and badly wrong in judgement. After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original thread (RE: Oracle deal) also went through fine, but none of them were critical of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a pebble), were complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the thread was being censored. There is NO censorship on this list, I know the guys and trust me when I say there isn't. There have been list problems of late with the whole IronFlare team in SF - I'm sure they will be rectified soon. (For note I sent a very complimentary email that also didn't get through) I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: The purpose of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to communicate with us. I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that big brother is watching and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest. I think you've been watching too much reality TV. IronFlare have never shied away from negative comment (much on this list). Quiet they may be, big brother they are not. Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement? Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this quiet and is now attempting damage control. Yes odd indeed. Let me see: - Oracle has a press / marketing team of hundreds of individuals. - IronFlare doesn't have enough people to answer sales emails - IronFlare team is in SF, with little time to send out PRs - Oracle announces the deal first - shock horror!! If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have never been allowed in this interest group. I've spoken to the guys and they assure me it's a list problem. There is no censorship here, never has, never will be. The product stands on it's merits, nothing else. -mike PS Sorry if this comes across as angry, I am. I'm sick of people sledging the IronFlare folks whenever anything happens. They're great guys, with a killer product, and they're working their guts out. Because they don't spend as much time as you deem necessary on PR, they're somehow Machiavellian ? Cut them some slack!
RE: Oracle deal gag
Now you need to come up with an even more convoluted conspiracy theory as to why THIS email you sent was 'allowed to make it through'. On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: EW, The message to which you replied has a slightly different title and is from my alternate email address ([EMAIL PROTECTED], not [EMAIL PROTECTED]). It went through just fine. After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original thread (RE: Oracle deal) also went through fine, but none of them were critical of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a pebble), were complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the thread was being censored. I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: The purpose of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to communicate with us. I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that big brother is watching and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest. Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement? Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this quiet and is now attempting damage control. If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have never been allowed in this interest group. Jay At 04:37 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: J, There have been lags and blackholes on the list last week. I suspect this is because the two gents have been in San Francisco in the last week, and have not been unable to keep up the maintenance. Sunday and Monday, and some of Tuesday lastweek there were no messages. Its a list problem...don't blame Orion. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of J Armstrong Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:50 PM To: Orion-Interest Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Oracle deal gag Just for fun, try bitching about the original issue. I tried twice (two days ago and one day ago) to respond to Karl Avendal's response to me on this thread and it's not showing up. At 12:48 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: Haha, I know... Hani just said we should bitch so I did :P - Phillip --- elephantwalker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phil, Orion also supports do's, even though the latest draft doesn't include do's (an earlier draft had major sections on do's). Phil, this is a moving target, and these guys will fix their ejb 2.0. Please log the references issue and bidirectional relations problem with bugzilla, they will fix it. Regards, the elephantwalker __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
RE: Oracle deal gag
Okay, EW. I'll agree that some things are apparently not getting through. They can write a great J2EE product, but can't get their list server to work. My dog at my homework. Now that I've tried for the third time to post my response to Karl, and asked for Mike Cannon-Brookes to post it, we'll see if it comes through. If it ever posts (or I send it to you directly), you will see that I tried to help Ironflare by reporting a licensing violation. They showed little interest. The emails were directly to Karl. Other than a we'll check into it (after my second message), I've seen no response. I asked for a follow up which, again, I sent directly to Karl. I took a huge risk for them and they left me hanging. Try blaming that on their list server or having them deny that I informed them. They don't give a damn about $1,500 production licenses because they bagged the elephant (not you, Oracle). Another point is that Oracle has licensed the world's greatest J2EE platform from a company that has a handful of employees, no support, little documentation, no help desk, and cannot make their list server work. Seems to make perfect sense to everyone except me. Jay At 11:05 AM 6/10/01 -0700, you wrote: J, The list is a little broken. Yesterday I sent this email, and it didn't go through (see attachement). It could be that some of your emails have not gone through because the list is not working properly. I think it would be better if we graduated to Jives. If anybody knows the principals, suggest this alternative to the email list. Its free, and works with several free databases. regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 1:36 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag EW, The message to which you replied has a slightly different title and is from my alternate email address ([EMAIL PROTECTED], not [EMAIL PROTECTED]). It went through just fine. After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original thread (RE: Oracle deal) also went through fine, but none of them were critical of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a pebble), were complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the thread was being censored. I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: The purpose of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to communicate with us. I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that big brother is watching and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest. Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement? Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this quiet and is now attempting damage control. If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have never been allowed in this interest group. Jay At 04:37 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: J, There have been lags and blackholes on the list last week. I suspect this is because the two gents have been in San Francisco in the last week, and have not been unable to keep up the maintenance. Sunday and Monday, and some of Tuesday lastweek there were no messages. Its a list problem...don't blame Orion. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of J Armstrong Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:50 PM To: Orion-Interest Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Oracle deal gag Just for fun, try bitching about the original issue. I tried twice (two days ago and one day ago) to respond to Karl Avendal's response to me on this thread and it's not showing up. At 12:48 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: Haha, I know... Hani just said we should bitch so I did :P - Phillip --- elephantwalker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phil, Orion also supports do's, even though the latest draft doesn't include do's (an earlier draft had major sections on do's). Phil, this is a moving target, and these guys will fix their ejb 2.0. Please log the references issue and bidirectional relations problem with bugzilla, they will fix it. Regards, the elephantwalker __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From: elephantwalker
RE: Oracle deal gag
Depending on the country, enforcing a license can be a problem. In the US, all the licensor need do is contact the isp which is hosting the site, and notify them of a copywrite violation. The law is pretty clear about that one. The isp has to take them down. In other countries, they may have no protection or they may have to take civil action. If the civil action doesn't envolve much of a penalty, what's the point? So there could be several reasons why they haven't taken action, and usually these reasons involve money. So as far as I am concerned, its their own business. If they were smart, they would post a reward for reporting licensing violations. Oracle has a history of licensing good software, unlike M$ who has a history of buying or copying good software. We should count ourselves as lucky that Oracle licensed Orion. Now they should have the money to expand their operation. This is important to understand. If there were 100 licensees of orion, that would be only $150,000 of revenue. If there were 1000 licensees of orion, that would be much more, but I dont' think they have that many licensees. Even with a budget of $1,500,000 per year, that is only enough for 5-7 employees plus overheadand they would have to sell 1000 licenses each year to meet that budget. I don't know what the deal is with Oracle, but it should be enough for them to grow beyond 10 people...and this is a GOOD thing for orion licensees. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:54 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag Okay, EW. I'll agree that some things are apparently not getting through. They can write a great J2EE product, but can't get their list server to work. My dog at my homework. Now that I've tried for the third time to post my response to Karl, and asked for Mike Cannon-Brookes to post it, we'll see if it comes through. If it ever posts (or I send it to you directly), you will see that I tried to help Ironflare by reporting a licensing violation. They showed little interest. The emails were directly to Karl. Other than a we'll check into it (after my second message), I've seen no response. I asked for a follow up which, again, I sent directly to Karl. I took a huge risk for them and they left me hanging. Try blaming that on their list server or having them deny that I informed them. They don't give a damn about $1,500 production licenses because they bagged the elephant (not you, Oracle). Another point is that Oracle has licensed the world's greatest J2EE platform from a company that has a handful of employees, no support, little documentation, no help desk, and cannot make their list server work. Seems to make perfect sense to everyone except me. Jay At 11:05 AM 6/10/01 -0700, you wrote: J, The list is a little broken. Yesterday I sent this email, and it didn't go through (see attachement). It could be that some of your emails have not gone through because the list is not working properly. I think it would be better if we graduated to Jives. If anybody knows the principals, suggest this alternative to the email list. Its free, and works with several free databases. regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 1:36 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag EW, The message to which you replied has a slightly different title and is from my alternate email address ([EMAIL PROTECTED], not [EMAIL PROTECTED]). It went through just fine. After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original thread (RE: Oracle deal) also went through fine, but none of them were critical of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a pebble), were complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the thread was being censored. I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: The purpose of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to communicate with us. I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that big brother is watching and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest. Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement? Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this quiet and is now attempting damage control. If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have never been allowed
RE: Oracle deal gag
From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...paranoia...] Have you ever considered that maybe your communications are being intercepted and preprocessed by a CIA computer? Do you hear clicking noises every time you pick up the phone? You have accidentally sumbled across The Swedish Conspiracy. Ironflare is actually a front company for arms smuggling: It is a little known fact that Larry Ellison converted to a radical reactionary Islamic sect recently. Oracle purchases app servers from Ironflare, Ironflare uses the money to purchase Kalishnakov rifles from nearby Russia, and a renegade CIA group smuggles them into Afghanistan to support the Taliban. Magnus and Karl are ficticious identities; in fact their names are acronyms for Make Arms Gifts Neglecting Upgrading Software and Keep Armstrong's Replies Limited. Now that you have now exposed yourself and your knowledge, the Men In Black will be coming for you soon. Good luck! Jeff Schnitzer
RE: Oracle deal gag
...CLIP... If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will tell,... ...CLIP... Since you are even able to say Time will tell why don't you just wait and see if Ironflare's personality changes over time instead of assuming the worst. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: Oracle deal gag
Even paranoid people have enemies. I've never suggested a conspiracy. The response I got from Karl was an immediate reaction to my comment that their testing was done for free. Now testing/bug reporting by the open community will directly help Oracle. Try dealing with facts. Six months ago, Karl stated they were hiring more people. There have been several threads about their lack of support since then. They still have only hired, maybe, a few (one?) additional employees. They seem to have no interest in collecting for production licenses. Out of the blue comes a deal with Oracle and they don't even announce it on the site. But since you think you're so frigging smart, let's compare our knowledge of the US intelligence community. My brother-in-law broke the code for the Unabomber's diary. No kidding. Check it out for yourself. His name is Mike Birch. He's retired US Navy and now an FBI cryptographer. He lives in Glen Bernie, MD, just outside Baltimore. You want his phone number? He was to testify in California, just before the Unabomber confessed. (see http://www.cnn.com/US/9712/27/unabomb.diary/) Mike's married to Florence Erolin, my wife's sister. I named our corporation Erolin, Inc after their family name. I assure you, the US intelligence community monitors the web constantly, and not just for viruses. They do tap phones. They do forge documents, etc, etc etc. From 1986 to the early 90's, I held a Top Secret SBI clearance in the US Air Force and was a security manager and foreign disclosure officer. When I managed the sale of $300M of F-16 jet engines to Egypt, there was a sizeable fund (millions) for bribes. I've talked to people in military intelligence who monitor phones for a living. What are your credentials, dumbass? I also have contacts in the World Bank. Ever hear of them? Are you stupid enough to think that they just give out charity loans to struggling countries? My wife dated a CIA employee overseas who worked at a front company in her country. His job was to psychologically evaluate returning field agents. I wonder why they might need psychological help? Are you suggesting that the US intelligence community (CIA, FBI and NSA) are not monitoring Web communications? You probably think they don't fly spy planes near China, send classified satellites up on the space shuttle, have the ability to tell you what kind of cigarette you're smoking from a satellite 90 miles above you, destroy the economies of countries, etc. Surprise! They've been doing that and more for many years. You probably don't believe corporate espionage exists, either. Seriously, smartass, I'd like a 'yes' or 'no' answer from you: do you really think the CIA doesn't monitor the web? Sorry about going off topic, but I'd like to avoid sarcasm and, please, just address the facts about the Oracle deal. At 02:30 PM 6/10/01 -0700, you wrote: From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...paranoia...] Have you ever considered that maybe your communications are being intercepted and preprocessed by a CIA computer? Do you hear clicking noises every time you pick up the phone? You have accidentally sumbled across The Swedish Conspiracy. Ironflare is actually a front company for arms smuggling: It is a little known fact that Larry Ellison converted to a radical reactionary Islamic sect recently. Oracle purchases app servers from Ironflare, Ironflare uses the money to purchase Kalishnakov rifles from nearby Russia, and a renegade CIA group smuggles them into Afghanistan to support the Taliban. Magnus and Karl are ficticious identities; in fact their names are acronyms for Make Arms Gifts Neglecting Upgrading Software and Keep Armstrong's Replies Limited. Now that you have now exposed yourself and your knowledge, the Men In Black will be coming for you soon. Good luck! Jeff Schnitzer
RE: Oracle deal gag
Well, you're kinda asking for it, but your credentials clearly show why you're so paranoid and are on very, umm, thin ground when it comes to mental well being. We've all tried presenting the facts to you regarding the Oracle deal, but all we seem to be getting in respose is a descent into your own personal madness. How about summing up the problems you have in a few short lines that won't cause cynics like me to laugh or respond so unpleasantly? If you had legitimate concerns that made people think 'ohyeah!' then I'm sure you'd get a suitably well considered reply. I wouldn't hold my breath though for any kind of 'official' reply as you've shown them why they should never reply to people on this list. Hani On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Even paranoid people have enemies. I've never suggested a conspiracy. The response I got from Karl was an immediate reaction to my comment that their testing was done for free. Now testing/bug reporting by the open community will directly help Oracle. Try dealing with facts. Six months ago, Karl stated they were hiring more people. There have been several threads about their lack of support since then. They still have only hired, maybe, a few (one?) additional employees. They seem to have no interest in collecting for production licenses. Out of the blue comes a deal with Oracle and they don't even announce it on the site. But since you think you're so frigging smart, let's compare our knowledge of the US intelligence community. My brother-in-law broke the code for the Unabomber's diary. No kidding. Check it out for yourself. His name is Mike Birch. He's retired US Navy and now an FBI cryptographer. He lives in Glen Bernie, MD, just outside Baltimore. You want his phone number? He was to testify in California, just before the Unabomber confessed. (see http://www.cnn.com/US/9712/27/unabomb.diary/) Mike's married to Florence Erolin, my wife's sister. I named our corporation Erolin, Inc after their family name. I assure you, the US intelligence community monitors the web constantly, and not just for viruses. They do tap phones. They do forge documents, etc, etc etc. From 1986 to the early 90's, I held a Top Secret SBI clearance in the US Air Force and was a security manager and foreign disclosure officer. When I managed the sale of $300M of F-16 jet engines to Egypt, there was a sizeable fund (millions) for bribes. I've talked to people in military intelligence who monitor phones for a living. What are your credentials, dumbass? I also have contacts in the World Bank. Ever hear of them? Are you stupid enough to think that they just give out charity loans to struggling countries? My wife dated a CIA employee overseas who worked at a front company in her country. His job was to psychologically evaluate returning field agents. I wonder why they might need psychological help? Are you suggesting that the US intelligence community (CIA, FBI and NSA) are not monitoring Web communications? You probably think they don't fly spy planes near China, send classified satellites up on the space shuttle, have the ability to tell you what kind of cigarette you're smoking from a satellite 90 miles above you, destroy the economies of countries, etc. Surprise! They've been doing that and more for many years. You probably don't believe corporate espionage exists, either. Seriously, smartass, I'd like a 'yes' or 'no' answer from you: do you really think the CIA doesn't monitor the web? Sorry about going off topic, but I'd like to avoid sarcasm and, please, just address the facts about the Oracle deal. At 02:30 PM 6/10/01 -0700, you wrote: From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...paranoia...] Have you ever considered that maybe your communications are being intercepted and preprocessed by a CIA computer? Do you hear clicking noises every time you pick up the phone? You have accidentally sumbled across The Swedish Conspiracy. Ironflare is actually a front company for arms smuggling: It is a little known fact that Larry Ellison converted to a radical reactionary Islamic sect recently. Oracle purchases app servers from Ironflare, Ironflare uses the money to purchase Kalishnakov rifles from nearby Russia, and a renegade CIA group smuggles them into Afghanistan to support the Taliban. Magnus and Karl are ficticious identities; in fact their names are acronyms for Make Arms Gifts Neglecting Upgrading Software and Keep Armstrong's Replies Limited. Now that you have now exposed yourself and your knowledge, the Men In Black will be coming for you soon. Good luck! Jeff Schnitzer
RE: Oracle deal gag
J, There have been lags and blackholes on the list last week. I suspect this is because the two gents have been in San Francisco in the last week, and have not been unable to keep up the maintenance. Sunday and Monday, and some of Tuesday lastweek there were no messages. Its a list problem...don't blame Orion. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of J Armstrong Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:50 PM To: Orion-Interest Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Oracle deal gag Just for fun, try bitching about the original issue. I tried twice (two days ago and one day ago) to respond to Karl Avendal's response to me on this thread and it's not showing up. At 12:48 PM 6/9/01 -0700, you wrote: Haha, I know... Hani just said we should bitch so I did :P - Phillip --- elephantwalker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phil, Orion also supports do's, even though the latest draft doesn't include do's (an earlier draft had major sections on do's). Phil, this is a moving target, and these guys will fix their ejb 2.0. Please log the references issue and bidirectional relations problem with bugzilla, they will fix it. Regards, the elephantwalker __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
