Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I am looking at going high voltage as opposed to 48 volts. This is my
largest battery system, I have a large distance between battery and
inverter, 40 feet, the cost of wire, 50 kW, at 50 volts is 1000 amps.  I am
thinking this is too big for me.

On Tue, May 14, 2024, 7:29 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system.  I would like
> to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them work in
> the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Do you know the transformer impedance?

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 5:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
> And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max.
>
> This one specifically.
> hammond SG3L0075PE
>
> I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street,
> 600’ to the house 400 amps.
>
>
> Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer
> and no AC.
> I don’t know.
>
> Thanks
> Jay
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay I have gotten this type of information directly from Hammond, I
would think from transformer to House line loss should be considered.  From
my Experiance, people go to 400 amp services mostly for circuit count.  I
have measured a few transformers in past but I don't know where data is
now.

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 5:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
> And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max.
>
> This one specifically.
> hammond SG3L0075PE
>
> I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street,
> 600’ to the house 400 amps.
>
>
> Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer
> and no AC.
> I don’t know.
>
> Thanks
> Jay
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I agree with John also.  one of the better-performing off-grid houses I
worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled
refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV
drew very few amps each/  I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the
homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO
panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker
panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex.  I
wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay
and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter.

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I agree with John.
>
> Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have.
> Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator.
>
> But you can measure the surge/load  and then size the charger accordingly.
>
> One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night and
> last longer because they are not at 15v during the day.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Jason,
>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
> fancy custom control board
> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>
> John Blittersdorf
> offgridvermont.com
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
>> for sure.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>>
>>> Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>>>   
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
>>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
>>> through a Trace C40.
>>>
>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
>>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power
>>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
>>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
>>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
>>> double or triple his usable capacity.
>>>
>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because 

Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

If the batteries have a 10-year life, I don't think it would make much
difference. LA batteries show an increase in internal resistance after a
few recharges. Typically, the BMS in a Li battery will ensure at top
balance all cells balance,  If the batteries are being properly recharged.


On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All
>
> Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.
>
> I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend
> adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over
> 1 year difference.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> thanks
> jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have done it many times. YES terminate the secondary first.  As an older
CT is a step up the voltage transformer and can generate thousands of
volts.  Many of new type Cats are low voltage output and are safe to work
with.

On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 10:46 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Wrenches
> Per manufacturer recommended installation procedures you must have the CT
> terminated befor the load connection can made and yes this can damage the
> CT. Depending on what you are connecting to there may also be a "short pin"
> to prevent component damage so keep that in mind when commissioning a
> logger.
> Regarding your question about hand heldsi have seen failures of cheaper
> units, l have Flukes and never had an issue with them
> Fun times
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 8:30 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear Wrenches,
>>
>> I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp
>> monitoring CTs around hot conductors.  For this question please assume the
>> CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper PPE/safety
>> protocol is employed.  The monitored currents in question are residential
>> services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by clamping them around a
>> hot conductor?
>>
>> The physics of a CT from my brief research states that,* "...the
>> secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its
>> burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt to
>> continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance potentially
>> generating high voltages and thus compromising operator safety."  *This begs
>> the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o causing damage or is the
>> italicized text related to very high current applications from the world of
>> medium and high voltage equipment and not as pertinent to the residential
>> and light commercial world I work in?
>>
>> I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals on
>> the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how brief)
>> you wish to share.  Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to perform
>> power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing load
>> monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of a safe and
>> non equipment-harming process.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Sam Haraldson
>>
>> [image: OnSite Energy]
>> 
>>
>> SAM HARALDSON
>> Field Operations Director
>> (406) 551-6135
>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715
>> Locally owned and operated since 2012
>> [image: B Corporation]
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I used to be Lead AGM for Off-grid; I used the Pure Lead Thin Plate for an
install 4 years ago from AltE, and it is still working fine.  I believe the
LiFe is the battery for off-grid and the trick is to find the correct BMS,

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 11:43 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
> (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
> at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it
> with a different brand without having to replace the other component as
> well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it
> certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less
> of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from
> tech support.
>
> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Is it similar to my problem with my Simplify batteries? Over time, the BMS
did not allow all cells to charge the same. To correct this, I had to
charge each battery separately, and after this, they stayed equivalent for
more years.

On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 7:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi william
>
> Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had?
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Peter:
>
>
>
> I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries.  There have been
> issues, I am sure many of them self-induced.  Fortress has been overall
> very responsive.  There have been a few days where I could not get through
> to technical support but with persistence I always manage.  Fortress has
> offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Cc:* pgir...@mindspring.com
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress
>
>
>
> Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and
> the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their
> bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after
> replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not
> showing accurate #’s,  ). While support has been, well supportive, the
> issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a
> customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings
> to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or
> ideas appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thx
> peter Giroux
>
> American Solar
>
> Norcross Ga
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Re: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Advice, please; I was about to purchase a SunPower inverter. Have other
people been having problems?
I cannot reach their support line with my questions. As many of you know, I
am a small contractor. I have noticed a reluctance of solar equipment
suppliers, both Outback and Sol-Ark, who have recently stopped answering my
questions. I have sent many email questions to their support line without a
response.  Two examples: can the Outback Radian do TOU? It can not! yet
they assured me it could.  I asked for the possibility of a workaround, and
their response was, to read the manual.
Can the Sol-Ark do TOU this under my utility rules?  I think it could but I
can not get them to confirm.  They also will not respond to my questions,

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:25 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
>
> after three months of back-and-forth we have finally received a
> replacement panel from SunPower and getting ready to affect repair. Are you
> saying we are going to have a hard time getting compensated for our
> services?
>
>
> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*
> *President*
> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.*
> *The BRIGHT CHOICE*
>
> *Since 1987,** helping you and your Portland neighbors move** towards an
> environmentally sustainable future.*
>
> *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com *
>
> On Feb 13, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Daniel via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> If you are doing warranty work for Sunpower for non leased systems, you
> may be like many other solar companies that are not getting vendor service
> payments for the work you are doing.
> If this sounds familiar to an experience you have or are having please
> contact me.  I am trying to aggregate those that are having this experience
> and see if we can get a larger collective force together and see if we can
> move them for payments before they are extinct.
> Thanks
> Daniel
>
> Daniel Tittmann
> Greenwired
> www.greenwired.com
> dan...@greenwired.com
> 707-206-5088
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

About 4 years ago I wrote about my failure of Simplify in service 3 years.
after much delay, I took each unit to shop and charged each one on bench
power supply, all returned to full function and are still working today off
grid system.  I agree with the comments they are tricky, MorningStar knows
how to charge them.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Ray,
>
> Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of
> Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in
> Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to
> Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the
> past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window
> into how they truly operate over time.
>
> Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be
> upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also
> is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls
> lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet
> connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which
> lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away.
>
> I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known
> quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable.
> Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps
> what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a
> "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it
> already exists.
>
> A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the
> fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as
> the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed
> up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and
> as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the
> battery manufacturer and vice versa.
>
> Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches
> list.
>
> Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy,
> Christopher
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ray
>>
>> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
>> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>>
>> But that sure sucks.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
>> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
>> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
>> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
>> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
>> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
>> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
>> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>>
>>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
>> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
>> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
>> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
>> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
>> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
>> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
>> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
>> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
>> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
>> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
>> loads.
>>
>> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
>> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
>> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
>> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
>> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
>> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
>> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
>> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
>> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
>> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
>> grid; its a tough gig.
>>
>> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
>> on this list?  Simpliphi is 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I had a some way similar experience I used fire raptor and added a relay to
use Raptor signal to shutdown inverter.

On Mon, Jan 1, 2024, 2:01 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I need to retrofit a Schneider XW+ system with a rapid shutdown system.
> The owner purchased this equipment about 4-5 years ago but is trying to get
> it past a *very *intense inspector.
>
> To me, it looks relatively straightforward to get NEC 2023 rapid shutdown
> compliant using Tigo TS4AF, and adding Schneider's MPPT Disconnect RS and
> external rapid shutdown initiator.  It's a little strange though because it
> has 2017 NEC compliant all over the documentation but I believe we are good
> through NEC 2023 because shutdown occurs at a module level and the
> Disconnect RS can take care of arc-fault monitoring.
>
> Does anyone have any documentation for the MPPT Disconnect RS that doesn't
> specifically call out (only) NEC 2017 compliant?
>
> Or if this is not a good approach and is not reliable, I would appreciate
> your input as well.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Great site, Allan, but many facts still need to be included.  Was there a
discharge or charge going on? How much power was being drawn by the
heaters?  If this is for a standalone system, energy consumption is very
important. What is the lower temperature cell discharge limit of Blue
Planet?   What concern was taken for the summer and overheating?   What are
the blue planet-specific heat and weight of the batteries?  More questions,
but I doubt if anyone else is interested. Thank you.

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:49 AM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> You might be able to get some ideas from this. It's worked well for me on
> one job.
> Allan
>
> On 10/25/2023 2:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new options
> for heating LI batteries.
>
>
>
> I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian
> 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it
> is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator
> back up waiting on delivery currently.
>
> Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin.
>
> Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters
> controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in
> with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam….
>
>
>
> Has anyone else done something similar?
>
> Has anyone done this & it did not work?
>
>
>
> Thought & suggestions…..
>
>
>
>
>
> _
>
> Dana OrzelGREAT SOLAR WORKS!
>
> C – 208.721.7003  E – d...@solarwork.com
>
> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com
>
> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”*
>
>
>
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> --
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> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> RETIRED
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

You have had many good suggestions but note you are on border line power,
at 2200 teet your power is down 10% note gen's are 80% of name plate, and
you are asking for 7.2 kW from a Genny that with atmospheric correction is
7.2 kW

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 8:27 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Changing the Gen Input mode to Support did the trick!  Thanks for the
> advice!
>
>
>Amos Post
>Integrity Energy
>   W 802.763.7023
>C 802.291.2188
> ienergyVT.com 
> Facebook 
>
> On Oct 26, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> This may be far fetched but I have encountered good voltage & low amperage
> = no amperage from solar arrays that baffled me on T/S on others systems &
> ultimately:
> We had voltage & low output amperage to no amperage.
> Turns out there was a junction box that had been forgotten about in the
> crawl space with never tightened split bolts that were crispy black from
> arcing.
> There was enough contact for voltage readings & not enough for any amps to
> flow.
> Double check all connections?
>
> ___
> Dana Orzel  c- 2087217003   e – d...@solarwork.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have off grid customers where I have them install 1/2 HP pump, also
Franklin soft start seems to help, low cost but I do not know how it works,
it has a start capacitor I think.

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:23 PM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 1:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
>> Even the SQ pump without the controller will soft start and should work with
>> any inverter built for offgrid.
>>
>> The SQ pumps work great off grid. Easily run on 24 volt Magnum inverters
> without even flickering the lights. Super reliable.
>
> I would avoid residential size VFD driven constant pressure pumps. I ended
> up with one at my current house. The VFDs go pretty regularly. My well
> service company can swap out a VFD in about 20 minutes and they always have
> a whole bunch of them on their shelves. They apparently do it quite a bit.
>
> -James Jefferson Jarvis
> APRS World, LLC
> +1-507-454-2727
> http://www.aprsworld.com/
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator question

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Generators are load responsive.  They can not be back feed, one approach is
to take heavy loads and have the inverter drop these loading heav load
situations.  bring these loads on line with a PLC

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:22 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>  Hi folks:
>
>
>
> We have a situation where the Sol-Ark 12kW Inverter isn’t able to
> adequately manage the loads and perform auto-gen start other than low
> battery level.   And despite thorough understanding of the customer’s
> initial loads, after he’s bought the system, he’s continued to add more and
> more loads – a severe case of load creep.
>
>
>
> He’s got a 38KW generator and we’re looking for the components to make the
> generator *load responsive* instead of just kicking on when the battery
> voltage is low.  Are there any ideas on switching equipment that can do
> this and work with the Sol-Ark?  We’re waiting for a reply from Sol-Ark,
> but thought you folks may have some ideas.
>
>
>
> The original design was for a larger solar system and inverter, but the
> customer balked at the cost and said he’d reduce his loads accordingly.  
> Unfortunately,
> that has not happened!   Now we’re trying to bend the laws of physics and
> have his 38KW  generator make up the difference. We need to come up with
> a means of accommodating the compromised design and now are faced with
> additional loads -- along with a significantly reduced solar array.   Is
> there a way to make this (2 wire start) generator more load responsive?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any and all advice!
>
>
>
>  Chris Daum
>
>  Oasis Montana Inc.
>
>  406-777-4309 or 4321
>
>  www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

sorry for a dumb question but what is the voltage ranges of the Franklin?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 4:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Enphase does generator support as well. Fortunately, I do not need that,
> so maybe it opens up my options. It's good to know that Franklin supports
> off-grid. I will reach out to them to confirm.
>
> I asked my Enphase rep to run this up the chain of command to see if they
> would support this installation given that it's kind of high profile and a
> fantastic marketing opportunity.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 5:17 PM Daniel Young  wrote:
>
>> I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC
>> trigger points. They can start either  2 wire start generators, or if the
>> generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can
>> actually wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and
>> let Franklin kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Danny Young
>>
>> Engineering Team Lead
>>
>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
>> Solar Energy Solutions
>>
>> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
>> Indianapolis
>>
>> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
>>
>> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
>>
>> da...@sesre.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches 
>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski 
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power
>>
>>
>>
>> *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or
>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
>> safe.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution
>> in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)?
>>
>>
>>
>> I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run
>> loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA
>> 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not
>> officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough
>> to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports
>> this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or
>> something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and
>> beautiful are going to be limited.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't need any generator integration.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

It was pointed out that I meant Ferro-resonant transformer.  The
transformer has a coil and a capacitor tuned to 60 hrzs.   Sorry if I
confused wrenches.

On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 11:35 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I must agree with Ray, that inverter was never intended to run the slew of
> electronics we have now. There are gadgets out on the market that may do
> what you want but the reliability is in question. Does this site have a
> genny? Using the  that may get you past the issue but not solving the
> problem. Upgrading the inverter would be my answer too. Good luck on
> presenting this to your customer.
> Not so fun times
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 10:12 PM Ray via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put
>> out.  They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly compared
>> to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave.  Later inverters (Outback,
>> Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, which translates to less
>> trouble.
>>
>> Trace SW waveform
>>
>>
>> I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a
>> capacitor to the circuit.  I can't recommend it 100% from a safety stand
>> point, but it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the possible
>> dangers?  Cap blowing, fires, shorts?  Definitely needs to be in a metal
>> enclosure.
>>
>> I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. At
>> 22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or two.
>> They do not last forever! Good Luck
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>> <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>> On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:
>>
>> I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave.  You
>> have to know the power.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001.  It's
>> been working  great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's
>> gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like the
>> old inverter.  Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer'
>> available that will work for this appliance's operation?  Any ideas
>> would be greatly appreciated.  He's rather loathe to replace his
>> inverter if he doesn't need to.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Daum
>>
>> Oasis Montana Inc.
>>
>> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>>
>> 406-777-4309 fax
>>
>> www.oasismontana.com
>>
>>
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>>
>> There 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave.  You
> have to know the power.
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001.  It’s
>> been working  great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he’s
>> gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don’t like the
>> old inverter.  Is there some sort of power conditioner or ‘line tamer’
>> available that will work for this appliance’s operation?  Any ideas
>> would be greatly appreciated.  He’s rather loathe to replace his
>> inverter if he doesn’t need to.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Daum
>>
>> Oasis Montana Inc.
>>
>> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>>
>> 406-777-4309 fax
>>
>> www.oasismontana.com
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave.  You have
to know the power.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001.  It’s
> been working  great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he’s gotten
> a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don’t like the old
> inverter.  Is there some sort of power conditioner or ‘line tamer’
> available that will work for this appliance’s operation?  Any ideas would
> be greatly appreciated.  He’s rather loathe to replace his inverter if he
> doesn’t need to.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I agree wit most of the comments.  I have tested many VAWT  none were any
good.
 i had presented my study at the MIdwest Energy Fair, showing much higher
trust on the turbine's and  much lower
performance. I just wanted to let you know that sume no performance at
all.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 10:52 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Wrenches
> I'm sure you did all your due diligence on this location, wind rated
> output is generally at 25 mph and needs 5 to 7 just to produce a watt. The
> math is a cube root calculation. Small wind never really produced what
> people expected. You also need to be higher than anything around the unit
> and higher is better. Don't get me started on service they all need
> something done so make your tower easy to lower.
> Funtimes!
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 8:10 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine?
>>
>> All of my searches come up with nothing.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>> Jay
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I need clarification; however, here is my interpretation for you.
The utility feeds the meter and then the 100A breaker.
Then you want this 100A breaker to feed the 220A bus panel.
This 220A panel then supplies through a 100A breaker the house load.
The solar also feeds the 220A panel.  If the solar exceeds 100A, and the
house load is small, the meter breaker will disconnect, losing power to the
solar and the load.

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 10:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Oh Wise folks!
>
> Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use
> for yourself in the future.
>
> I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack
> meter  box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars.
> The apts. were a mid 1970's original build.  There are 4 apartment with 1
> circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker
> boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 -
> 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming...
>
> I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past
> from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility
> is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My
> response was that all we are doing is  achieving a properly sized bus bar
> to accommodate the back feed.
>
> My Utility Idaho Power requires  interconnection with a meter that has a
> load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads
> only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each.
>
> I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve
> a larger array connection & how it went?
> --
> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for
> Responsible People since 1988"
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have seen such equipment from generator suppliers, they will be reversing
contactors,  Look for reversing disconnecting switches I have used them
from SQ D and Eaton, and GE.

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 5:26 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators with
> easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the manual switch
> would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers.
>
> I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+
> generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3
> phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the
> trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on size/weight
> and on cost.
>
> The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because
> folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do any
> switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating because the
> machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible seems best b/c
> each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to buy the switch
> inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare switch that would
> require me to mount it into a housing. The project won't be code
> inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>
> The Wrench List is the Bomb!
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Landline: 970-731-4675
> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
> ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

How about a Morningstar relay driver?  I have not done this exact thing
before.but similar things.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.
>
> If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then
> starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.
> So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.
>
> Vs
>
> If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will
> start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close
> AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is the last email I think:
>
> Mac,
>
>
> I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an
> inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe
> shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually
> less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the
> load side.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
>
>
> On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
>
> I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad
> stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault
> and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut
> out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct
> charge the eVault to get things running again.
>
> I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off
> contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to
> recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there
> are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the
> system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
>
> Thanks for your input!
>
> --
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Thank you for your help.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 2:35 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Darryl:
>
>
>
> Set Azimuth to 0 degrees:
>
>
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 19, 2023 12:17 PM
> *To:* newrewrenches
> *Cc:* Darryl Thayer
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north
> facing roof
>
>
>
> Customer wants me to propose adding solar modules to north roof.  I don't
> know how to get answer from PV Watts?
>
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[RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Customer wants me to propose adding solar modules to north roof.  I don't
know how to get answer from PV Watts?
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have one of four one alarm locked no tech support

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 2:11 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> Yes the pytes are good price, I had problems and no tech support
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 1:51 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jay we have been doing a few of these Pytes they seem like a upgrade from
>> the EG4s, better manuals and integration guides and I can get them from NAZ
>> instead of SignatureSolar.
>>
>> Only real issue so far is they have a special terminal on them so they
>> come with these little jumpers.
>>
>>
>> https://www.solar-electric.com/pytes-e-box-48100r-5-12kwh-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery.html
>>
>> Andrew Perkins
>>
>> Greenwired
>> Store Manager/Service Tech​
>>
>> P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100
>>
>> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd
>>
>> Redway, CA 95560
>> www.greenwired.com
>>
>>
>> *Leave us a review!* <http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 15:19:58 -0700 *Jay via RE-wrenches
>> >*
>> wrote ---
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I’m
>> Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh.
>> System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback
>> equipment. That could change but probably not.
>> Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7.
>>
>> So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at.
>> Blue planet is just too expensive.
>>
>> And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This
>> goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium.
>> Any comments about why they say that?
>> Do others say rhat?
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi you have the correct people on the job but get at the basics the forces
causing the vibration is magnetic. You have to break the magnetic path.  If
it was electrical a simple cut in the enclosure.  But it is magnetic which
is much harder to stop. If the hum stops with the cover off replace the
cover with polycarbonate plastic

On Sat, Jul 1, 2023, 3:17 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> yes I read Robins email, but the class T fuses are in series only with the
> large DC cable breakers (Heineman, Airpax, etc.) in the Outback GSLC. I
> might be missing something, perhaps again.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 3:09 PM Robin  wrote:
>
>> Ryan thinks it may be the classT fuses. We have a vibration issue when
>> classT fuses are connected to CBI breakers.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2023, at 11:32 AM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi Kirk.  Did you receive the email that Robin sent to you ?
>>
>> You can measure things like, with your scope but you would want to look
>> at the current
>> from the inverter to battery.
>>
>> You could also use your clamp meter and look at DC  and AC.
>> Set it to AC to view the ripple current.
>>
>> I will copy/paste what Robin and Ryan sent to you and our support team
>> below in case it didn't come through.
>>
>> boB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/30/2023 7:55 AM, r...@midnitesolar.com wrote:
>>
>> Kirk,
>>
>> Any chance this is the Class T Fuses resonating from the PWM on the DC
>> current? Feel free to give me a call would love to discuss this further
>>
>>
>>
>> 207-416-2006
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* robin  
>> *Sent:* Friday, June 30, 2023 10:47 AM
>> *To:* kirkh@vermont.solar
>> *Cc:* b...@midnitesolar.com; ryan 
>> ; James Parish 
>> ; t...@midnitesolar.com; Michelle Neville
>>  
>> *Subject:* Vibrations
>>
>>
>>
>> Kirk, Although this is the first I have heard of this, boB says he isn’t
>> surprised. I am copying the tech support group here in hopes we can all
>> learn something.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have been shipping these boxes for about 8 years now and not a peep.
>>
>> boB says the ripple current is 120Hz AC and with that many amps it is not
>> surprising. I will check with our metal suppliers and ask what the cost
>> ramifications are to add stiffening ribs to the cover and possibly other
>> surfaces.
>>
>> I did this years ago on the Trace DR chassis to give it strength, but the
>> idea is the same.
>>
>> I hate to suggest this, but can you epoxy some ¾” x ¾” angle iron or
>> angle aluminum to the inside surface of the cover? Not sure about other
>> surfaces as I tend to fill them up with knockouts and busbars. I suppose
>> you could just span some unused knockouts though. Maybe even add a couple
>> more mounting screws towards the center of the box.
>>
>> We would be very interested in hearing the results.
>>
>> boB says our Rosie may exhibit less noise also as it will have less
>> ripple. We are testing many Rosie inverters paralleled so soon will be able
>> to have this same configuration tested although we don’t have loads large
>> enough to do ten Rosie’s justice.
>>
>> I don’t want to change the enclosure to aluminum for a couple of reasons,
>> but we may have little choice. Aluminum would not vibrate!
>>
>> One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press
>> nuts instead of snail shells. Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do
>> well in aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not vibrate from magnetic
>> ripple activity though.
>>
>> OK, I will ask about changing to aluminum. That would probably be less
>> expensive than adding stiffening ribs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let us know how it goes.
>>
>> Then ask Ryan for a couple of free SPD’s for your trouble.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Robin Gudgel
>>
>> MidNite Solar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/1/2023 9:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> I'm going to first obtain access to an oscilloscope to characterize and
>> screenshot this phenomena, both before and after any mitigation I do.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue here is
>>> that the enclosure
>>> for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is ferrous.  That
>>> means that when the
>>> 120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can vibrate just like
>>> a transformer.
>>>
>>> Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple than the
>>> newer HF transformer units
>>> but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well.
>>>
>>> This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and we haven't
>>> heard any complaints
>>> but maybe others have been silent on this.  I am not surprised at all
>>> that this happens.
>>>
>>> Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor so when the
>>> whole enclosure forms
>>> around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in a
>>> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Manufactured homes

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

check with Iron Ridge as they have done for me

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:15 PM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi California guys,
>
> We have a couple of leads that are manufactured homes, that have to be
> permitted through the CA Housing and Community Development office. The HCD
> wants roof engineering, and we are having trouble finding anyone local who
> will do this. Has anyone worked with an engineering firm anywhere in CA
> that is willing to deal with manufactured housing? (The builder of the
> houses has been no help other than providing non-stamped drawings.)
>
> Thanks,
> Bruce Erickson
> Mendocino Solar Service
> 707-937-1701
> PO Box 1252
> Mendocino, CA 95460
>
>
>
> "Serving the Solar System"
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi David I think although it is 450 volts out, the battery is actually moch
lower voltage and has a buck boost charge controller. It bucks the voltage
down to charge the battery and boost the voltage to serve the load.  If you
open the battery and rewire you will need a BMS, you can find on line but
you need to know the battery voltages I think it is 3.8 to 4.1.  NMC
perhaps some one on line knows

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 11:40 AM David Katz via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I have an LG Chem RESU10H Battery that was originally sold with a
> SunnyStorage inverter.  Does anyone know if there is a way to turn on the
> battery output terminals so it can be charged without the inverter. No
> lights come on when you turn on the main switch and the output breaker.
> There is a small terminal strip for control wires. There is a 12V + and –
> terminal and a Batt En terminal.  Does any one know if powering the Batt
> En. Terminal turns it on?  I am going to try that but I am not sure what
> voltage that terminal wants to see.
>
> Thanks
>
> David Katz
>
>
>
> David Katz
>
> *President*
>
> *www.tamaracksolar.com *
>
> (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487
>
> dk...@tamaracksolar.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Are we all thinking single phase? Another idea would be to use plastic
enclosures in at least some way to break the magnetic path.  This is a lot
of current, and it will cause magnetic heating where the magnetic loop is
complete.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 10:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> All,
>
> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank,
> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers.
>
> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified
> to mount  class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and
> inverter outputs.
>
> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC
> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters
> are automatically set to this charge rate as well.
>
> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible
> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A.
>
> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly
> by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the
> The box itself is also vibrating by feel.
>
> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration
> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised
> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost
> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not
> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner.
>
> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that
> this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly.
> Ideas?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi all, just a few comments, The inverter charger has a ripple on the DC.
All have this; Outback is no exception.
However, all wires should be run together, positive and negative
same conduit and same hole, as the AC ripple magnetic effects cancel
from both wires.  Also, the circuit breaker has an internal loop to assist
in the trip, you may want to form a loop on the non-breaker conductor.
Years ago, I was faced with the ripple on the DC problem using a Xantrex
inverter (I think) I added a 150-volt electrolytic capacitor across the
battery lines, CAUTION: this may destroy the Radians So check with
Outback!!!

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 10:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> All,
>
> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank,
> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers.
>
> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified
> to mount  class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and
> inverter outputs.
>
> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC
> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters
> are automatically set to this charge rate as well.
>
> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible
> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A.
>
> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly
> by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the
> The box itself is also vibrating by feel.
>
> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration
> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised
> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost
> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not
> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner.
>
> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that
> this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly.
> Ideas?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithium SOC drift

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have had similar problems with other equipment.  fully the battery to top
balance and then reset the SOC

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 7:04 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> We have about 20 units out in service.
> All of the batteries SOC readings have drifted apart greatly.  IE always
> said not pay attention the battery readouts, and as long as voltage is
> even, that the batteries are working fine.
> After the last install we did of their batteries, their tech support group
> had me make up a cable to hook up a computer to the battery to re - set the
> BMS I believe.
> I’m scheduled with a new tech support channel for Iron Edison to take this
> on. Has anyone done this before , and is it really going to do any good ?
>
>
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> Solar Installation / Design
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St.
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest
set of LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2
because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries are doing
fine.  I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>
> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
> pouch?
>
> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>
> Wondering what you all think and know
>
> Thx
> Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is
they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging
the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My
oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>
> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
> pouch?
>
> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>
> Wondering what you all think and know
>
> Thx
> Jay
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Need detailed help with Pytee battery

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Thank you, I have sent the message to Pytes, and I will let Rewrench know
if this works.  o

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 7:43 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Daryl,
> I purchased some Pytes batteries for my brother-in-law this spring, as I
> had some contact with them, and he wanted to try their batteries. I've had
> no contact with their support team at all, and the only real contact I have
> is the sales person I dealt with, Austin Li  (austin...@pytesgroup.com,
> WhatsApp:+8618030254164).  Maybe contacting him will help you get to their
> tech support in a more useful way. You can try mentioning my name although
> I have no idea if that will be at all helpful. If you get anywhere, I'd be
> curious to know, since I'm sure my brother-in-law will be in need of tech
> support at some time in the future.
> Good Luck,
> Howie
> Sun Catcher
> 802-272-0004
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 1:08 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I have a Pytee battery that has gone into alarm.  Won't come out.
>> Pytee says to connect the computer and diagnose.  That is all they said.
>>  They do not answer emails asking for further advice.  Does anyone know
>> what to do?  Sps to use?  Address to use?
>> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Need detailed help with Pytee battery

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have a Pytee battery that has gone into alarm.  Won't come out.
Pytee says to connect the computer and diagnose.  That is all they said.
 They do not answer emails asking for further advice.  Does anyone know
what to do?  Sps to use?  Address to use?
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello, just an onion of an old person.  I have needed a lot of tech help, I
find Sol-Ark the best tech, So I would go with experiance.

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 11:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY
> inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters
> are somewhat similar.
>
> Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks.
>
> --
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Was the inverter connected at the time of testing?  If so I suspect the
inverter is loading the solar array below Vmp

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 11:23 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
>  I've got a call from a customer that said their (my
> install) 17 year old GT system went dead. Basic stats: 23, Mitsubishi
> PVMF120EC3, label says V mpp= 17.6V and Voc = 22 V; top-of-pole; SMA
> SB3800U. Its one string of 23 PVs.  Full sun, 75 degrees ambient during
> testing. When I checked DC voltage at the inverter landings I got ~23-29
> volts (fluctuating) same at the input side of the DC switch.  These
> panels have the old gasketted 4-screw covered J-boxes and screw
> terminals inside, I removed the covers from three panels and got 9.5
> volts at the each of the panels' screw terminals,  all the wiring
> outside the boxes checks out.
>
>  The system had been functioning normally 3 weeks prior. I
> could check voltage at more panels I guess.  Ideas?
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
> CA Lic 874049
> Solar powered since 1982
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay, if this is the LA AGM thin plate, I tried to look into this a few
years ago.  Being AGM, they have a recombination feature; when overcharged,
they recombine the H2 O2, thus self-balancing, just like the top balance in
LiFe.  The caution is not to charge too fast in absorb mode.  I decided not
to use the balancer.  The system is 3 yrs old and going great.

On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 2:38 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2  12v
> lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series
> communication.
> Kilovault if that matters.
> Not my design.
>
> It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have used Egauge in this situation many times.  They even have
revenue-grade Current Transformers.(CTs)
Their tech support is good,  I find even I can set them up easily.  They
use normal English in their documentation.

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 3:21 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be
> installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of
> Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System
>
> The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is
> actually using
> And how much the solar electric system is producing
>
> In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client
> gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted
> from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is
> consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Sorry if this is nonsense,  but your existing Radian is your "AC grid
source," It can act as the paralleling.
AC coupling source.  I did this about 20 to 30 years ago, using FX
inverters, not Radians, to power a large motor.
Can your Radian Mate 3 run in grid zero? Or if not, one inverter runs all
the time as a grid source ( grid forming)
the second inverter (grid following) runs in Grid-Zero mode, with "off-set"
set at 30 Amps.  If the load is less than 30 amps,
the grid-following inverter carries the load.  (The grid-forming inverter
supplies the grid signal, and the following inverter
carries the load.)  When your load exceeds 30 amps, the extra current comes
from the grid-forming inverter.  The Radian can
pass up to 50 or 60 amps from the forming inverter.  You can get 50 to 60
amps
to the load when you add the forming and following inverters.  Errors:
this will double your parasitic load, I have not done this
so beware.  This is not the answer for V2H; other inverters can work in
this combination but


On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 10:04 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>  The wrench list has some very creative thinkers that may have a
> go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output with a new
> one.   Outback says this is not do-able.   We're completely off-grid out
> here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven year old
> Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its way.  Outback
> says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A").
>
> Ideas??
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
> CA Lic 874049
> Solar powered since 1982
>
>
> --
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Re: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I am in Minnesota utility is Xcel energy

On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 9:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Which utility has such low rates?
>
> SMUD?
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On May 2, 2023, at 12:05 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question.  I did go online to
> ask Outback twice, no answer.System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each
> 1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s.  Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop.  The
> owner wants the lowest energy bill.  The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh
> and on-peak at 0.21/kWh.  My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to
> 9:00 pm.  However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days,
> AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power.  Is there a way
> to switch to grid power for this period?   I do not want to charge the
> battery at this time.
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[RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question.  I did go online to
ask Outback twice, no answer.System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each
1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s.  Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop.  The
owner wants the lowest energy bill.  The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh
and on-peak at 0.21/kWh.  My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to
9:00 pm.  However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days,
AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power.  Is there a way
to switch to grid power for this period?   I do not want to charge the
battery at this time.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi all, if the micros are not producing power I would expect an extremely
low power factor.  The power factor of all inverters is low not in use.
Make sure electrician is measuring during production.  My measurements are
extra low for micro inverters.

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 4:11 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Wrenches,
>
> We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an
> electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks
> there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of
> measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1.
>
> The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a
> spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power
> factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read
> it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably
> sending some power back to the grid.  Note that the phase B active power
> measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power
> is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05.
>
> Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly
> measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal
> with negative readings?
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Best,
>
> August
> Luminalt
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Re: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

This power factor is impossible,  can he measure the apparent power then
the real power separately devide the real by apparent to get power factor.
I guess he has connections wrong, wrong leg of split phase.  If the
inverter is off, then possible, do you measure current off the inverter and
DC into the inverter?

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 4:11 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Wrenches,
>
> We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an
> electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks
> there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of
> measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1.
>
> The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a
> spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power
> factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read
> it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably
> sending some power back to the grid.  Note that the phase B active power
> measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power
> is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05.
>
> Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly
> measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal
> with negative readings?
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Best,
>
> August
> Luminalt
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium upgrade when Magnasine goes to float too soon

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello,  I have had similar serious problems when working with old
batteries.  Their voltage rises rapidly when charging. The older
batteries will lose in capacity and more so charging rate. Have the
batteries been equalized periodically?  If not, they will develop sulfur on
the plates.  The solution is a desulfation routine.  I have improved the
battery's performance by a long equalization charge (up to 30 hrs), Do not
overheat the batteries, keep the water level up, and be careful you will be
generating Hydrogen and Oxygen in the batteries and have a
possible explosion.  I MEAN EXPLOSION!!!  it has happened to me twice, Wear
splash goggles.
Remember LA batteries have a normal charge period of 20 hours.  Steve
Higgens will tell you you need a bigger solar array or a smaller load.

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 2:55 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi, Mechanix~ I have several local clients with various different versions
> of Magnum pure sine inverters & all of the inverters seem to transition to
> the float stage soon after the charge cycle begins. I've observed this even
> when the inverters & batteries were brand new. I'm aware of the menus about
> adjusting the bulk time duration but even adjusting that to the longest
> setting never helped.
>
> Since these clients are all off grid with no generator automation, I
> just tweaked the float voltage to match the bulk voltage then instructed
> the clients to turn off their generator when the target voltage appears on
> their display. The batteries were always lead acid floodies.
>
> Now that some of these clients need better batteries (& I hope they can
> afford transitioning to lithium), are there any mfr's for drop in
> replacement lithium which don't care if the gen-powered charger can't shift
> downward for the float voltage? The customers' PV chargers all have a float
> function that does work right. I know that Blue Planet suggests 55.2v DC
> for all charge stages, but my Magnum systems are all either 12v nominal or
> 24v nominal, so I'll need to find a different brand that builds the lower
> voltage batteries.
>
> The clients can still shut down the generator when the target voltage is
> reached, but what if they fail to shut down soon after the setpoint is
> reached? I wouldn't want to put anybody's battery warranty at risk due to
> this strange charging quirk. Also, I'd like to know if any other Wrenchies
> have noticed this peculiarity with the Magnum inverters.
>
> Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is The Bomb!
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Landline: 970-731-4675
> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
> ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

It depends upon the pulse.  It you are referring to a an EMP caused by a
solar storm this is hard on large electrical grids.  No problem on Solar
equipment.  The voltage current is Ndf/dt number of turns times rate of
change of flux, the grid can collapse but if you disconnect from grid
(multimode inverter) and surge suppressor on grid side you should be ok.
As it is there are transformers that get destroyed by solar flares

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 10:36 AM Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Aloha all,
>
> Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems
> (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses
> and solar flares?
>
> Mahalo,
> marco
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello the answer is yes.  On a job  several years ago to finish I worked
after dark.  It was a full moon, and a street light was nearby I got bit
from a 500 Voc module string.  I am sure I did not have 500 V but it only
takes 20 ma. To be deadly. I did not get my volt ohm meter out but I should
have.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 9:34 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi wrenches,
>
> In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that stumped
> me.  At night, will the light from the flames or the fire fighters' flood
> lights energize the array to a dangerous potential?
>
> Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome.
>
> Shine On!
>
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello i have an XW Pro that starts a 2 HP induction motor reliably, i
noticed th scope indicates battery voltage current issue,  be sure your
batteries can supply the starting surge.  I recently installed a new set of
batteries.  Some not all Li can surge.

On Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 5:13 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
> Three (3) weeks is also what I am being told.   Part of the delay was that
> ETL/Intertek dropped the ball, big time.
>
> Actually, ETL ran out of brains and we had to go to another NRTL
> altogether for inverters.
>
> And yes, it does surge very well.
>
> Merry new year, all !
>
> boB
>
>  On 1/14/2023 11:40 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I am told the RE (off grid version) will be available through normal
> distribution in 3 weeks.
>  As a Beta tester for this inverter I can say the use of SiC Fets is a
> game changer.
>
> On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 11:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Fully appreciate everyone's input.
>>
>> The Midnite Rosie sounds interesting for sure.  Midnite is a great
>> company with great support.  Smart people answer the phone and that really
>> counts for a lot.
>>
>> How are you getting your hands on these?  I can't seem to find much info,
>> no spec sheets etc.  None of my vendors have them and Midnite is estimating
>> Apr 2023 as the release date.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:34 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table the XW
>>> will shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it is a long cut on
>>> metal when the 4HP compressor kicks on.
>>> I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the same
>>> battery so it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter will surge right
>>> through and finish the job, the XW is not in  the same league when
>>> comparing surge capability.
>>>
>>>  A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have that big
>>> heavy transformer making noise under heavy load. It is easy to install as
>>> it is not as heavy. So far it's a game changer in regards to inverter
>>> hardware that I have tested.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large
 20” 240V bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single
 Sol Ark 15K takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that
 inductive load snag with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K.

 Best,

 Chris

 On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie
> will...
>
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
> *Date: *Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM
> *To: *RE-wrenches;
> *Cc: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar;
> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid
> inverter options
>
> There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A
> great monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in 
> the
> last 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>*
>
>
> On 2023-01-13 11 <2023-01-13%2011>:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
>
> Hi Mac
>
> The radian is low voltage transformer
> Based. Has hella surge capacity
>
> I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with
> that platform.
>
> Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units.
> Just easier on everything.
>
> The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do
> out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be
> better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and
> radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even
> though its under its rating.
>
> Good luck
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote:
> <%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about
> 10 years on a Magnum 4448.  He's got some large loads, planers, saws,
> compressors vacuums etc. 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility transformer limitations

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello, my first thought is the BMS board, on the battery reaching near full
charge the BMS does a top balance where the board diverts the current
around fully charged cells and continues to charge cells not fully
charged.  this diversion current generates heat.  that the board must
dissipate.   When all cells are charged the heat depends upon charging
voltage.  Is the radian set at too high a charging voltage?  Also, if a
cell fails that cell will overheat and the board will overheat.  .

On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 8:40 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Morning all. Just got a call from a customer with a radian and fortress
> battery that caught fire. Has anyone had any issues with either unit?? We
> have numerous systems with combos of both and no issues. System has been in
> place for well over a year, climate controlled garage and system has worked
> well. Did a BMS board replacement earlier this year.
>
>
>
>   Any and all help appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
> Peter Giroux
>
> ASAE
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Monday, December 26, 2022 8:17 AM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Cc:* Christopher Warfel 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility transformer limitations
>
>
>
> Wouldn't the microinverters shut down if the voltage rose?  They wouldn't
> be able to raise voltage about PUC/DPU limits I would think. They would
> shut down on high voltage. I am saying this because of an experience this
> fall where our infamous Block Island Power Company raised the taps on a
> local xfmr due to their "secret heat pump program" that was dragging down
> local voltage. They claimed solar was a burden, but were quiet on the load
> building program they embarked upon without any disclosure.   When the
> cooling loads disappeared, the voltage went above our grid tied systems set
> points and they shut down.  We told the utility they had a high voltage
> problem and they adjusted the taps.  Of course they did not acknowledge or
> thank us.  It seems our little coop which is now head from a guy from the
> Vermont Electric Coop is taking an old utility approach instead of
> cooperation, integration and maximization of performance and economics.
>
> I'd think you be able to ask how the supply can raise the voltage when
> there is so much diversified load on the same device.   Electricians have
> to do a diversity calculation, and I know a utility has to conduct them as
> part of these studies. Worse case of no load and all generation is such a
> low probability that to design for it, when/if it occurred, is not a danger
> and of no material consequence makes little sense. But, we've been dealing
> with that ever since this person arrived in our neck of the woods.
>
>
>
> Chris Warfel
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/25/2022 5:21 PM, Garrison via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi William,
>
>
>
> One possible path forward would be to ask the utility co what AC inverter
> capacity would be allowed. Maybe the solution would be to unplug a micro or
> two if you are just over the limit. Even better, maybe they would allow you
> set an export limit on the micros you have installed.
>
>
>
> I had a recent situation where a 40kW DC system had exceeded a utility
> transformer by only 2kW AC, so a simple redesign avoided an $8k invoice
> from the utility. The utility was not transparent about this option at
> first and only made it clear after some persistence.
>
>
>
> Good luck,
>
>
>
> Garrison Riegel
>
> Celestar Solar
>
>
>
> On Dec 25, 2022, at 3:14 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches
>  
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> It is common practice for the utility to overload the transformer a lot
> for the potential load.  They expect no one will use their service at
> maximum, furthermore, they expect non coincidence of loads.  Look at the
> transformer most have a label as to the kW or the unit, and the utility
> should give you that number along with the impedance.  Note I have had area
> engineers not understand that solar reduces the load on the transformer.
> They have two concerns, you will overload and you will raise the voltage
> to other customers.  Overload is ridiculous; the transformer must be at
> least 20 kW if a 15 kW concern is valid.  However, raising the voltage is
> not.  If all the customers shut off their power, the voltage would rise to
> the inverter limit,and/or feed current back on the distribution line
> raising up/downstream customers voltage.  I have had this problem, on three
> occasions discussions with the utility upper engineering, not local
> engineer, i prevailed, one cas

Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility transformer limitations

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

It is common practice for the utility to overload the transformer a lot for
the potential load.  They expect no one will use their service at maximum,
furthermore, they expect non coincidence of loads.  Look at the transformer
most have a label as to the kW or the unit, and the utility should give you
that number along with the impedance.  Note I have had area engineers not
understand that solar reduces the load on the transformer.  They have two
concerns, you will overload and you will raise the voltage
to other customers.  Overload is ridiculous; the transformer must be at
least 20 kW if a 15 kW concern is valid.  However, raising the voltage is
not.  If all the customers shut off their power, the voltage would rise to
the inverter limit,and/or feed current back on the distribution line
raising up/downstream customers voltage.  I have had this problem, on three
occasions discussions with the utility upper engineering, not local
engineer, i prevailed, one case I did not.   In one cast utility allowed
connection and put a voltage monitor on secondary voltage, then later
allowed permanent connection..   Good luck

On Sun, Dec 25, 2022 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Wrenched:
>
>
>
> Merry Christmas to those of you that observe such traditions, or
> substitute the winter festivity of your choice.
>
>
>
> I helped a previous employee install an Enphase IQ8 system on his home.
> He applied for the utility approval concurrently with his building permit
> The day he got his final inspection the utility contacted him and claimed
> "The aggregate generation exceeds the identified transformer rating" and
> refused him a Permission to Operate letter.
>
>
>
> Adding up the service ratings of the homes on his secondary we get about
> 336 kW of potential consumption.  Adding the grid-tied systems on his
> secondary we get about 16.5 kW.  How is it that the back-feed exceeds the
> transformer rating?
>
>
>
> I would appreciate any insight on how to consider this situation and how
> to fight it.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Grid Support or?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Assuming this is a zero instantaneous no export, not on the daily or
monthly.   I have installed a few XW, and XW PRO inverters, however, I have
never done an instantaneous no export project on the entire service.  The
problem is the load.  Ideally you want to monitor the service entrance and
control off the service current.  This would mean the total current would
have to pass through the XW.  However, this would be a very limited
electrical use household, like an off-grid house.  For the No Export to
work on a more normal load, you want maximum current possible to pass
through the XW (where the control is) to the priority circuit panel, (you
will want to measure these loads allowing for non-coincidence).  You will
want to charge the batteries from solar only and deplete the battery to
about 15% SOC.  What you want to do is sell all the solar that comes in, do
not charge from the grid, to reduce the electric bill the maximum amount.
 I use an Egauge for measuring these loads.  (PS) the XW has no monitoring
of the LiFe battery so use the charge controller Voltage to maintain SOC.
(PS) you may have to use the generator support mode input.  I do not
remember.

Sorry about my poor writing ability, hope this helps.

On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 3:45 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

> It can be done but it is not an easy job. You are 2 generations of XW back.
>
> XW+ was good at this and XW pro was designed for this
> along with being able to charge based on Soc (from the BMS) as well as 
> voltage.
>
> Is this an insured home?  You might need a permit as this has to be legal for 
> your area.  Out west of you is what we do.   Good Luck !
>
> The main impact of Rule 21 for solar installers is that *any of your 
> installations in the state of California must now use Rule-compliant 
> inverters*.
>  In effect, these are smart inverters that have been certified as UL 1741-SA 
> or that are listed on the California Energy Commission's compliant inverter
>  database.
>
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2022-12-21 5:23 am, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
>
> I’ve inherited a XW. 6048 system that we just installed a LiFePO4 battery
> bank with.
> Has anyone successfully used Grid Support with Sell disabled?
> This system never had an Interconnection Agreement with the utility co so
> it cannot sell.
> Currently we have :
> AC charger on , Multi Stage
> PV input
> Sell disabled
> Grid Support disabled
> There is no TOU metering.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> Solar Installation / Design
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St.
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi, happy holidays to all.  Of course it sounds like a dual bonding
situation.  Inverter generators are normally floating neutral, rotating
generators are normally neutral bonded internally in the generator.  The
GFCI detects a neutral current on the ground wire.  If the generator is
bonded internally it may be simplest to unbond at the generator.  However
you should bond ie ground the neutral downstream and only one bond.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:06 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
> We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite Classic
> 150 and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of Trina
> TSM365-De06X-05(II) (three strings of three) with the ME-RC50 and a HUP
> SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
> When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen Set’s
> GFCI outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the connections are secure,
> assured that the gen set is grounded, disconnected the jumper within the
> E-Panel between the ground buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed
> the MNSPD’s from the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step
> should be.  How do we get the PFC to function properly?  What are we
> missing?
>
> Best,
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
> 406-777-4309 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] solar lease questions

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi all,  not enough information.
Does her grid allow export?
Does she have a period of poor sun?
What is her daily or monthly consumption?
Is there an AC  or DC limit on connected solar power?
Will her AHJ or Utility allow line side tap?
The system seems to be poorly designed.  Power Walls are AC coupled, the
large array would clip all day and only have advantage in the shoulders, a
smaller array and bigger inverters?
This design depends upon Utility and AHJ   thank you have a nice day.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 5:35 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I”ve got a friend in hawaii, big island near Kona  that is looking at a
> sun run lease and she’s asking me questions.
>
> I’m not that familiar with the electric rates nor the games that Sun Run
> is doing.
>
> They are pushing a 20 yr lease with the following system:
> 38 x 400 watt panels
> 2 x SE 3.8kw
> 2 x power wall
> it will offset 120% of her load
> loan is $398 month/ 20 yrs which is $95,000
>
> My first really big question is thats 15.2kw on 7.6kw of inverter?  That
> doesn’t sound right, 2 x DC/AC ratio?
> Does it make sense to have the batteries?
>
> And if you paid for the system outright, what would that be in Hawaii?
>
>
> Any and all help and advice is welcome,
> or if there any installers near there, that would also be helpful.
>
>
> thx
> jay
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] BACKUP system revival

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello and happy holidays.  About 10 years ago, I had a similar problem with
a similar customer who wanted a similar problem solved.  The Generac auto
transfer switch needed a 12 volt source.  When the grid went down the
generac transfer switch disconnected and waited about 10 to 15 seconds then
started the generator.  The customer wanted shorter outage transfer time. I
used the inverter driving a dedicated load panel picking up the priority
loads.  When the generator started it would, then after 3 minutes, the
inverter would drop out letting the generator carry all loads, and
the inverter would go back to battery charging.  (note: 8 kW for 15 to 20
minutes is only 2.7 kWh, but the battery system has to be fast,  a LiFe at
C/2 requires 16 kWh/ 300 AH@ 48V and a LA at C/6 requires 48 kWh or 1000
AH)  This job also had solar, and it was DC coupled using a charge
controller.  It has been working for  years, but has never had a major
outage.  The generator better be a good clean signal.  also the grid outage
has to be longer than 10 to 15 seconds for the generator to take over, and
the customer wants if the generator on propane runs out of fuel to go to
solar in my case.  Many years ago I had an off grid customer with a 200 amp
service I supplied using two Outback FX and an auto transformer. It
worked for years.  Good luck.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 10:28 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hey All a Cheery Season to you all!
>
>
>
> I inherited a backup system that had “failed”. It was unwired, & poorly
> labeled.
>
>
>
> 1200 AHR AGM Battery – 1 Radian 8KW inverter – 200 amp Generac transfer
> switch – No solar - Feeding a 200 amp house panel.
>
>
>
> First I explained the there were too many loads for an 8KW inverter. It
> could & may overload the 8KW inverter. They said “it had worked fine for 5
> years & they were OK with it as is please get it back up”…
>
> Replaced the existing Eaton transfer switch as the Generac controller was
> shot, with a Generac 200 amp Xfer switch complete with controller &
> transfer switch.
>
> Rewired & had to recharge the 48 volt battery from 20volt back up to full
> with a pair of IOTA chargers in series.
>
>
>
> The original trigger was 3 wires from the Radian to the 12 volt & AUX
> output to the input on the Generac controller. These were disconnected on
> the Generac end. So no clue or labeling there.
>
>
>
> I called Outback & they called it Redneck engineering & send me a few
> articles to read.
>
>
>
> Has anyone configured a backup in this manner?
>
>
>
> All suggestions appreciated, thanks & wishing you all a safe & sane season!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
> *
>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Frequency converter?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Chris, this a Darryl kluge approach.  Get a 50 Hz battery charger, a
LiFePO battery. And a off grid inverter.  20 kW is tough, maybe a 15 kW
inverter woild surfice. The battery plus battery chsrger should be sized
to handle 300 amps 48 volts.  15 kW / 50 volts= 300 A.
If the battery can handle 2C and the charger is 100 A you need 200 Ah
SORRY I AM JUST RATTLING

On Wed, Oct 5, 2022, 11:39 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hey folks:
>
>
>
> A would-be customer is building a home in the Caribbean, where they
> utilize 230V, 50 hz.  But he cannot find the appliances he wants in that
> voltage & hertz range; is there some large frequency converter that he can
> hook to their (230V 50hz) grid that’ll convert it to 120/240V 60 hz?  He’s
> not too efficient, peak loads are apt to be around 20kwh….  Location is
> Dominica, with a reliable utility.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any ideas you may have!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase String Breaker Heating Up

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello, breakers are thermal-magnetic the current heats the breaker; if the
current is high enough for long enough, a solder pot inside melts; this
current and excessive heat causes other breakers to open  Are you sure the
string current is less than 80% of the breaker rating and the wire
connecting to the breaker is ampacity 120 percent of the current?  I have
seen several of these events when the cabinet is in the sun or in other hot
locations.  Also, excessive breakers in a panel board can cause heat
build-up and premature breaker tripping.  If a breaker trips from heat
several times, the bus bar clip can soften or distort, this can damage the
bus.
I hope this has some value.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 1:12 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I have a commercial 208 volt job where four of 11 fully populated strings
> of IQ7A had breakers that were tripped as reported by the client. They were
> able to reset two of them. They also reported that the two they were not
> able to reset we're very hot. The other two were warm.  By the time I got
> to the site, all four breakers had permanently failed.
>
> Once I got replacements, I was able to install them and they turned on
> without any faults. I gave it about 15 minutes and then put my infrared
> camera on it. To my surprise, the breaker immediately above two of the
> failed breakers and across from the other two failed breakers was clearly
> hot. I'm thinking this might have been the bad breaker all along causing
> the heat issue on the bus bar which made adjacent breakers fail. But this
> hot breaker did not fail.
>
> Does this seem like a plausible scenario, and if so, any ideas on what
> might have caused it? All of the breaker bolts were tight, but a couple
> were not torqued to spec. I just find it strange that one breaker that
> didn't fail would cause other adjacent breakers to heat up enough to fail.
>
> Flir image attached. This was after I replaced the four failed breakers.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery disconnect solution

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I want to comment, maybe without value.  The breaker you mention is called
a "shunt trip" breaker.  This is common type breaker in the electrical
industry.  The MN breaker has a 24 volt solenoid that trips the breaker.
Shunt Trip breakers have the solenoid voltage for the system voltage.  BUT
the way it works!! (load side of breaker is connected to one side of the
trip solenoid the other side is connected to switch and then to (neutral).
When the switch is closed current rushes through the solenoid, triping the
breaker stoping the solenoid current.  But what to do with solar
equipment?  Often when the bsttery is dis onnected the losd side of the
breaker does not go to neutral and the solenoid can carry current and will
fsil

On Mon, May 9, 2022, 7:43 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Does anyone have a solution for operating a remote trip MN battery breaker
> since the BDM is gone?
>
> We do have a birdhouse, so maybe someone has a BDM, but otherwise,
> what to do?
>
> Batteries in a dwelling
>
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
> Solar Installation / Design Expert
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW MPPT 80/600 rapid shut down

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Yes but how do you trigger fire raptor except by the fire raptor switch?
It will take care of by manual control but what about 690.11?

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 5:06 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> You may want to look at fire raptor as a RSD option.
> Jerry
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 9:42 AM jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> HI All
>>
>> I’ve got a project coming up that has specified a Schneider XW 80/600
>> controller.
>>
>> Its going to need RS.
>>
>> Is the only product still the Tigo TS4-A-F?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> jay
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW MPPT 80/600 rapid shut down

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I understand the complete Tigo line and any sun-spec MLPE will work,
however, it also requires the RSD box from Schneider   I don't have
experience with any other than the firestop tigo

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 11:42 AM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All
>
> I’ve got a project coming up that has specified a Schneider XW 80/600
> controller.
>
> Its going to need RS.
>
> Is the only product still the Tigo TS4-A-F?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Yes and no, I think this is a tap, "a tap shall be permitted anywhere along
a feeder"  ' as long as it is less than a 10-foot rule or 25-foot rule
ending in a listed OCPD with a rating sufficient to handle the maximum
overcurrent'.  Service equipment residential is rated for fault currents of
up to 10,000 amps withstand.Refer to 240.4.B and 240.21 (B) (1 & 2)

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:39 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD.
>
> I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV, you
> could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized
> accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an
> appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a
> real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the
> conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet
>> and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with
>> multiple sources see 705
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
>>> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
>>> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
>>> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jason,
>>>>
>>>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
>>>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example,
>>>> load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
>>>> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>>>>
>>>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an
>>>> off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
>>>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
>>>> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, the
>>>> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>>>>
>>>> -Chris
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can
>>>>> put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.
>>>>> REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  
>>>>> The
>>>>> DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design
>>>>>> and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected
>>>>>> wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you are
>>>>>> good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it 
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be
>>>>>> plus your margin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>>>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do
>>>>>>> you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> OCPD of the unit?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Chris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason S

Re: [RE-wrenches] Is There an "Off-grid" (i.e. constant voltage) Version of Microinverters?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Peter, My Cybro experience was from maybe 10 years ago; at that time,
they did not have any 485 connection or Lithium connection.  If the Li
battery has a built-in BMS the Cybro has the standard charge profiles,  of
bulk, absorb, and float, I do not remember a refloat.  The

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 11:16 AM petertor--- via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> This is great information folks. It looks like Cybo has most of the load
> scenarios covered.
>
> I have one last question before I call them on Monday morning: "Do the
> Cybo inverters support LiFePO4 batteries? That is, does one of their four
> DC inputs not only auto-detect batteries but does it recognize LiFePO4 vs.
> PbAcid? It is my understanding that LiFePO4 batteries need a different
> charging cycle compared to PbAcid to attain a 100% SOC.
>
> - Peter
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
> President, California Solar Engineering
> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351
> South Pasadena, CA 91030
> (323) 839-6108
>
> On 04/16/2022 3:59 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>
> yes, there are three versions of the cybo inverter, the one that I a most
> familiar with produced a 60 HZ AC signal; the voltage did not exceed 120
> volts or 240 volts.  The voltage out times the current out was equal to the
> voltage in times current in.  This allowed me to operate a resistance load,
> like a water heater.
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 2:39 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Take a look at Cybo inverters
>
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *petertor--- via RE-wrenches
> *Date: *Sat, Apr 16, 2022 12:49 PM
> *To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;
> *Cc: *peter...@pobox.com;
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Is There an "Off-grid" (i.e. constant voltage)
> Version of Microinverters?
>
> It has been a while since I installed a PV system, so I apologize in
> advance for my ignorance wrt product availability.
>
> I recently had need for the off-grid equivalent of a grid-tied
> microinverter. I have an assortment of new and not so new PV modules such
> as the Solaria mono, 400 Wp and the Jinko poly, 310 Wp. I would like a
> microinverter that makes available 120 Vac (or 240 Vac but 120 is
> preferable), 60 Hz. I would then take the output of these microinverters
> and combine them in a subpanel. I do not have a need for battery storage.
>
> I can explain more about the application to anyone who has an interest.
>
> Does such an component exist?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> - Peter
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
> President, California Solar Engineering
> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351
> South Pasadena, CA 91030
> (323) 839-6108
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> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
> President, SolarGnosis
> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351
> South Pasadena, CA 91030
> (323) 839-6108
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Is There an "Off-grid" (i.e. constant voltage) Version of Microinverters?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I presented a paper several years ago outlining a similar system using one
thermal water heater and comparing it to a PV-based system.  In my tests,
the PV-system outperformed the solar thermal system in energy per square
foot of collector.  There were sometime the Solar Thermal would out
perform at midday and bright sun.  But not for the whole day the PV system
would always win.  The trick was operation of the thermostat, the Cybro
made it possible to use the normal switch.  The other method for switching
was a capacitor across the terminals.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 1:09 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Cybo is quite interesting. Makes me want to change my refusal to install
> solar DHW anymore.
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 12:16 PM petertor--- via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> This is great information folks. It looks like Cybo has most of the load
>> scenarios covered.
>>
>> I have one last question before I call them on Monday morning: "Do the
>> Cybo inverters support LiFePO4 batteries? That is, does one of their four
>> DC inputs not only auto-detect batteries but does it recognize LiFePO4 vs.
>> PbAcid? It is my understanding that LiFePO4 batteries need a different
>> charging cycle compared to PbAcid to attain a 100% SOC.
>>
>> - Peter
>>
>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
>> President, California Solar Engineering
>> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351
>> South Pasadena, CA 91030
>> (323) 839-6108
>>
>> On 04/16/2022 3:59 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> yes, there are three versions of the cybo inverter, the one that I a most
>> familiar with produced a 60 HZ AC signal; the voltage did not exceed 120
>> volts or 240 volts.  The voltage out times the current out was equal to the
>> voltage in times current in.  This allowed me to operate a resistance load,
>> like a water heater.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 2:39 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Take a look at Cybo inverters
>>
>> -Glenn
>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>>
>> -- Original message--
>> *From: *petertor--- via RE-wrenches
>> *Date: *Sat, Apr 16, 2022 12:49 PM
>> *To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;
>> *Cc: *peter...@pobox.com;
>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Is There an "Off-grid" (i.e. constant voltage)
>> Version of Microinverters?
>>
>> It has been a while since I installed a PV system, so I apologize in
>> advance for my ignorance wrt product availability.
>>
>> I recently had need for the off-grid equivalent of a grid-tied
>> microinverter. I have an assortment of new and not so new PV modules such
>> as the Solaria mono, 400 Wp and the Jinko poly, 310 Wp. I would like a
>> microinverter that makes available 120 Vac (or 240 Vac but 120 is
>> preferable), 60 Hz. I would then take the output of these microinverters
>> and combine them in a subpanel. I do not have a need for battery storage.
>>
>> I can explain more about the application to anyone who has an interest.
>>
>> Does such an component exist?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any help.
>>
>> - Peter
>>
>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
>> President, California Solar Engineering
>> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351
>> South Pasadena, CA 91030
>> (323) 839-6108
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet and
protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with multiple
sources see 705

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example,
>> load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
>> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>>
>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an
>> off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
>> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, the
>> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can put
>>> any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  REmember
>>> in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  The DC best
>>> example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design
>>>> and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected
>>>> wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you are
>>>> good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will
>>>> never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be
>>>> plus your margin.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>>
>>>>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do
>>>>> you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the
>>>>> OCPD of the unit?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>>>>>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
>>>>>>> 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. 
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max
>>>>>>> continuous output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be
>>>>>>> used with 80A rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection
>>>>>>> implemented if the 200A breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a 
>>>>>>> short
>>>>>>> piece of 2/0 to an external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __

Re: [RE-wrenches] Is There an "Off-grid" (i.e. constant voltage) Version of Microinverters?

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

yes, there are three versions of the cybo inverter, the one that I a most
familiar with produced a 60 HZ AC signal; the voltage did not exceed 120
volts or 240 volts.  The voltage out times the current out was equal to the
voltage in times current in.  This allowed me to operate a resistance load,
like a water heater.

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 2:39 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Take a look at Cybo inverters
>
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *petertor--- via RE-wrenches
> *Date: *Sat, Apr 16, 2022 12:49 PM
> *To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;
> *Cc: *peter...@pobox.com;
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Is There an "Off-grid" (i.e. constant voltage)
> Version of Microinverters?
>
> It has been a while since I installed a PV system, so I apologize in
> advance for my ignorance wrt product availability.
>
> I recently had need for the off-grid equivalent of a grid-tied
> microinverter. I have an assortment of new and not so new PV modules such
> as the Solaria mono, 400 Wp and the Jinko poly, 310 Wp. I would like a
> microinverter that makes available 120 Vac (or 240 Vac but 120 is
> preferable), 60 Hz. I would then take the output of these microinverters
> and combine them in a subpanel. I do not have a need for battery storage.
>
> I can explain more about the application to anyone who has an interest.
>
> Does such an component exist?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> - Peter
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
> President, California Solar Engineering
> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351
> South Pasadena, CA 91030
> (323) 839-6108
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can put
any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  REmember
in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  The DC best
example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design and
> operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected wiring is
> rated for the max output of the protected source then you are good. A 200
> ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will never meet
> that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be plus your
> margin.
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
>> size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
>> of the unit?
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
 I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But
 then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.

 In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
 output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
 rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
 breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
 external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?

 Jason Szumlanski





 ___
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>>> --
>> Chris Sparadeo
>>
>>
>> C_802-369-4458
>> H_802-728-3059
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark install

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi, Ron, Yes, you must be careful of the MPPT inputs.  You state Sol-Ark
has an 18 amp max input, meaning you can not have more than 1 string
supplying an MPPT if your 60 cell modules are 10 amps Isc.  You state
Sol-Ark has a maximum voltage per MPPT of 500 volts, this voltage is *not
Voc x number of modules.*  The Voc must be temperature corrected.  find the
lowest temperature for your region, check code book 690.7a table and there
is a table of temperature correction factors, use these factors to correct
Voc at STC to Voc at your lowest temperature.   For example if your lowest
temp is -10 F the code says (x1.2) so your 40 volts becomes 40 x 1.2 = 48
volts and the max number of modules is 10 per string

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 9:42 PM Ron Young via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Wrenches, trying to wrap my head around a first time Sol-Ark install.
> Because the max DC voltage is 500v at 18a  and the PV I’m using is 40v DC
> each I will have to create three strings each 480v. What would be the best
> choice for a home run wire? I’ve always used smaller strings with micro
> inverters, a combiner at the array and a single Teck home run cable but the
> string inverter presents a different scenario and it looks like I’ll need
> to use three home run cables, one for each string.
>
> Ron Young
>
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Thank you William, I did it from memory, which I should not trust at 85 it
is screwy
I should have gone back to 'first principles' instead of trusting the
memory of an old job.  Thank you

On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 9:23 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Wrenches:
>
>
>
> I found some on-line pump HP calculators, such as this
> <https://engineeringunits.com/pump-power-calculator/> one.  Plugging in 1
> gpm of water pumped to 300 feet elevation results in 0.1 HP, not 5.  I have
> no idea how Daryl arrived at 5 HP.
>
>
>
> Plugging in the 10 gpm we want, the HP required is a little over 1.  I
> tried several calculators and worked the formula myself and all approaches
> resulted in the same answer.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Wesley Kennedy [mailto:hathaso...@yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 28, 2022 9:58 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* William Miller; Darryl Thayer
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7
>
>
>
> Hi Darryl,
>
> I’d love to see that math on that.you mind sharing?
>
> -Wes
>
> 303-653-3073
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2022, at 1:27 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hello, Sorry to be so late but I have been overloaded.  Just a note on
> physics of lifting water.  The calculation indicates if you pump 1 gallon
> per minute up 300 feet it required a water hp of 5 HP
>
> Use this base number and good pumps are about 70% efficient.  If the flow
> rate is not 1 GPM adjust the HP accordingly.  For example, if you want to
> pump 10 GPM it requires 50 HP  or if you want to pump 10 Gallons / day it
> requires (50HP/ 24h 60min )requiring 0,035 HP..
>
> Again I apologize for delay.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 1:33 AM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Hilton:
>
> A valid point.  However in this region wells often do not recharge as well
> as we might like.  In these cases, to meet gallons per day you have to pump
> long and slow--more hours per day than the sun will be up.  That means of
> course generator or battery storage.
>
> The economics have shifted from when I started installing direct-DC water
> pumping.  The money that is being spent today to provide commercial ag
> water
> is beyond what I would have comprehended back then.  This means new
> technology--and questions need to be asked, including considering battery
> storage.
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> William
>
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Hilton Dier
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 6:56 PM
> To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7
>
> Here’s a lateral take on this. A 500 gallon poly water tank is far cheaper
> than the batteries needed to fill it.
>
> Years ago I rigged up a seasonal pump system for a man who had two ponds on
> his property. The lower one was well fed by a spring but the upper one
> wasn’t.
> I used a 200 watt DC piston pump and a couple of modules with a linear
> current booster. A couple of breakers but no batteries. It just chugged
> away
> quietly all (moderately sunny) day, filling the upper pond.
>
> Using a positive displacement pump is key for minimizing power
> requirements.
> At 300 feet that’s about 125 psi, which is not out of line for a piston
> pump. Fill a big poly tank and pressurize it with a small DC diaphragm pump
> if necessary.
>
> Simple, efficient, cheap.
>
> Hilton Dier III
> Renewable Energy Design
> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello, Sorry to be so late but I have been overloaded.  Just a note on
physics of lifting water.  The calculation indicates if you pump 1 gallon
per minute up 300 feet it required a water hp of 5 HP
Use this base number and good pumps are about 70% efficient.  If the flow
rate is not 1 GPM adjust the HP accordingly.  For example, if you want to
pump 10 GPM it requires 50 HP  or if you want to pump 10 Gallons / day it
requires (50HP/ 24h 60min )requiring 0,035 HP..
Again I apologize for delay.

On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 1:33 AM William Miller 
wrote:

> Hilton:
>
> A valid point.  However in this region wells often do not recharge as well
> as we might like.  In these cases, to meet gallons per day you have to pump
> long and slow--more hours per day than the sun will be up.  That means of
> course generator or battery storage.
>
> The economics have shifted from when I started installing direct-DC water
> pumping.  The money that is being spent today to provide commercial ag
> water
> is beyond what I would have comprehended back then.  This means new
> technology--and questions need to be asked, including considering battery
> storage.
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> William
>
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Hilton Dier
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 6:56 PM
> To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Pumping 24/7
>
> Here’s a lateral take on this. A 500 gallon poly water tank is far cheaper
> than the batteries needed to fill it.
>
> Years ago I rigged up a seasonal pump system for a man who had two ponds on
> his property. The lower one was well fed by a spring but the upper one
> wasn’t.
> I used a 200 watt DC piston pump and a couple of modules with a linear
> current booster. A couple of breakers but no batteries. It just chugged
> away
> quietly all (moderately sunny) day, filling the upper pond.
>
> Using a positive displacement pump is key for minimizing power
> requirements.
> At 300 feet that’s about 125 psi, which is not out of line for a piston
> pump. Fill a big poly tank and pressurize it with a small DC diaphragm pump
> if necessary.
>
> Simple, efficient, cheap.
>
> Hilton Dier III
> Renewable Energy Design
> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wires between arrays

[Darryl Thayer]

Once in my life i had an inspector concerned about strain relief, i used a
GBC on each end of the pipe, it surficed. I think i could have used a bell
mouth connector.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022, 3:43 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I have an inspector giving me a hard time about wire management between
> two ground mounted arrays. The racking is Unirac GFT, and the system was
> too large to have one continuous array. So there are two arrays, side by
> side, with only a 1' gap between the rails and modules from the two
> separate arrays.
>
> We jumped the PV wire between the arrays through a short section of PVC
> for protection, and the wires are secured to the rails about a foot past
> the PVC on either end. The inspector is citing the following:
> 
> Array conductors found disconnected or improperly connected, which may be
> causing portions of the array to be inoperable and/or pose a shock hazard.
> 
> They say that they are citing this because there is no strain relief as
> the wires enter and exit the 18" piece of conduit. My question to you all
> is, do you know of any code reference that says that this setup is or is
> not okay? I would also be curious to hear what others do to span a 1' gap
> on a ground mount. It almost seems as if I just left the conductors exposed
> for that gap, there would have been no problem.
>
> I attached a couple of photos to help with my written description.
> I appreciate the knowledge of this hive mind!
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
> [image: Logo] 
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com 
> c: (607) 288-2898
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery in non cycling use

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi Jay I am not sure what non-cycling use is, I have mentioned before in my
experience where a cell in the string can become lower in charge and the
string loses capacity in discharge because the BMS shuts off the complete
battery when the troubled cell reaches low voltage cut out. To prevent
this, a string should go tho top balance.  This is of course true for both
cycling and little cycling.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 9:36 AM Jay  wrote:

> Hi all the lithium experts.
>
> Are there any issues with using LFP lithium in non cycling battery backup
> mode.
> Or specific settings, brands etc that should be considered when designing
> for GTBB, non cycling.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Autotransformer for Single Phase Motor Headache

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi i have a single phase motor at a old install that i replaced about
8 years ago.  Would it help if i made some starting load surge measurments?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:52 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> Hi Chris, In the past, I was able to start a 5 hp pump motor using a VFD.
> , I can not remember the make, of the VFD but I think it was an ABB 7.5 or
> 10 HP connected to a single-phase motor.  I started it on two Outback 3548s
> (or maybe 3024s).  Now for the tricky part, I have done this several times
> over the years so I keep confusing the systems.  you must power the VFD
> before starting the motor to charge the capacitors as the VFD will also
> have a loading surge.( one time on maybe 10 HP I did a homemade resistor)
> The VFD has a large capacitance and will have a surge.  Most water pumps do
> not have a high zero-speed torque requirement, meaning low inertia, so you
> can use a slower ramp to speed.  watch your speed as the VFD can Overspeed
> the motor increasing the load.  The advantage of the VFD is it can run at a
> lower speed reducing the load on the inverter.  I also think an Auto
> Transformer will balance the load between the inverters, but may not be
> necessary.
> Also be aware that starting surge is on the battery also,  If your motor
> has aGH motor it can have a 4 to7 times the running loads on starting.  NEC
> 430,7 I think.  This can be well over 100 amps.  The inverter will sag in
> voltage during startup but they may draw 400 or 500 amps from the battery.
> If my memory is correct the 10 HP VFD has the possibility of adding an
> extra capacitor which reduces AC starting draw.
> Sorry, this was so long, it was more than 20 years ago for me.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:46 AM Chris Sparadeo 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I currently have an off-grid client that has a 120/240VAC  7.5 HP -  40A
>> FLC single phase pool pump. Locked rotor current is around 110 A. I had
>> initially (and naively) thought that two Sol Ark 12k units would be able to
>> handle this load. Due to the lack of a transformer, the unit's just can't
>> output the required inductive startup inrush. Now getting clarification
>> from Sol Ark that max inductive HP output is 2.5 HP per unit. We had
>> installed an amply sized SR35 soft starter, with no avail. The 20 kW
>> generator can start the motor, but it is noticeably shaken with the
>> intense load drop.
>>
>> I am toying with the idea of installing a VFD and upgrading the pool pump
>> to a three phase motor. Would make for a much smoother ramp and self start.
>> The client is a bit hesitant to upgrade and would like to continue using
>> their clunky, non-self starting single phase motor.
>>
>> My other thought was to implement an autotransformer to add some copper
>> to the equation and help the Sol Ark's get the job done. Has anyone had any
>> experience with the Victron 100A autotransformer for both 120/240 input and
>> output?
>>
>> Any suggestions or relative experience would be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> -Kindly,
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Chris Sparadeo *
>>
>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **# 042919-015652*
>>
>> *NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector **®** # 052920-015652 *
>>
>> *State of Vermont Journeyman Electrician # EJ-07619*
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Autotransformer for Single Phase Motor Headache

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi Chris, In the past, I was able to start a 5 hp pump motor using a VFD. ,
I can not remember the make, of the VFD but I think it was an ABB 7.5 or 10
HP connected to a single-phase motor.  I started it on two Outback 3548s
(or maybe 3024s).  Now for the tricky part, I have done this several times
over the years so I keep confusing the systems.  you must power the VFD
before starting the motor to charge the capacitors as the VFD will also
have a loading surge.( one time on maybe 10 HP I did a homemade resistor)
The VFD has a large capacitance and will have a surge.  Most water pumps do
not have a high zero-speed torque requirement, meaning low inertia, so you
can use a slower ramp to speed.  watch your speed as the VFD can Overspeed
the motor increasing the load.  The advantage of the VFD is it can run at a
lower speed reducing the load on the inverter.  I also think an Auto
Transformer will balance the load between the inverters, but may not be
necessary.
Also be aware that starting surge is on the battery also,  If your motor
has aGH motor it can have a 4 to7 times the running loads on starting.  NEC
430,7 I think.  This can be well over 100 amps.  The inverter will sag in
voltage during startup but they may draw 400 or 500 amps from the battery.
If my memory is correct the 10 HP VFD has the possibility of adding an
extra capacitor which reduces AC starting draw.
Sorry, this was so long, it was more than 20 years ago for me.


On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:46 AM Chris Sparadeo 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I currently have an off-grid client that has a 120/240VAC  7.5 HP -  40A
> FLC single phase pool pump. Locked rotor current is around 110 A. I had
> initially (and naively) thought that two Sol Ark 12k units would be able to
> handle this load. Due to the lack of a transformer, the unit's just can't
> output the required inductive startup inrush. Now getting clarification
> from Sol Ark that max inductive HP output is 2.5 HP per unit. We had
> installed an amply sized SR35 soft starter, with no avail. The 20 kW
> generator can start the motor, but it is noticeably shaken with the
> intense load drop.
>
> I am toying with the idea of installing a VFD and upgrading the pool pump
> to a three phase motor. Would make for a much smoother ramp and self start.
> The client is a bit hesitant to upgrade and would like to continue using
> their clunky, non-self starting single phase motor.
>
> My other thought was to implement an autotransformer to add some copper to
> the equation and help the Sol Ark's get the job done. Has anyone had any
> experience with the Victron 100A autotransformer for both 120/240 input and
> output?
>
> Any suggestions or relative experience would be greatly appreciated!
>
> -Kindly,
>
> -Chris
>
> --
>
> *Chris Sparadeo *
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **# 042919-015652*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector **®** # 052920-015652 *
>
> *State of Vermont Journeyman Electrician # EJ-07619*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Well siphon?

[Darryl Thayer]

Yes, but if the rise is greater than about 30 feet (25 feet even) the water
head is greater than atmospheric and the water will draw a vacuum in the
pipe.  These numbers depend upon the location (elevation) and temperature
of the water.
for example at 15,000 feet the atmosphere is about 1/2 or sea level,
meaning the water column will break at 15 feet of head.  (from my high
school physics, this is the scale height) so that at 7500 feet the water
column is a maximum of 3/4 x 30 feet or 22 feet.  this is from memory and
mine is not so good.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:51 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Colleagues:
>
>
>
> All of our water pumping customers to date have been pumping water to
> tanks higher in elevation than the well-head.  Just now I am looking at a
> system pumping to a pond that is lower than the well-head and lower even
> than the bottom of the well.  The 300’ well has the head at 1200’ elevation
> and pumping to a pond at 800’ elevation.  The line goes over a 1500’
> ridge.  If there were nothing impeding the water flow, would it not siphon
> to the pond?
>
>
>
> Has anyone seen the basic physics available being used to advantage?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Darryl Thayer]

Yes, i agree, with others, DC has lower losses when at higher voltage, when
i was involved with similar project, we took transformer cost plus wire
cost  did some simulations, (added wire and transformer for different
configurations) and selected lowest cost.

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:34 AM Foxfire Energy  wrote:

> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand
> Alone (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off
> the New England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC
> power center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar
> and a 12kW Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10
> private cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had
> significant damage when we got there (no system ground, evidence of several
> lightening strikes, open/corroded connections, and poor workmanship in
> general)
> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the
> island.. Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing
> system to the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps
> me on my toes).. My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC
> and send it on like 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge
> (we've done it before).. The new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and
> back for transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas
> because of the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have experience with DC for
> transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW (including 25% for continuous
> duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a different wire) and a line
> loss under 5%. TIA db
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext MPPT60-150 controller and LFP batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi Chris, I have used the above configuration with success.  Here are some
background ideas.  I have done some simpliphi installs however I am old and
these are five to 7 years ago.  The Simpliphi's I installed had a top
balance BMS.  (When one of the cells reaches full charge voltage, the BMS
bypasses the full cell and reduces the charge current to the 'top-balance'
current.  The Simpliphi's I installed over two years became out of balance
because the small amount of 'top-balance' current did not complete the
charge on some of the cells.  With some cells having a low state of charge
the battery shuts down for lack of charge, acting with lower capacity.
This was my case, cured by putting the batteries on an on-grid charger for
an extended period.   The solution is to have the system charge faster such
that the CC could hold the batteries in top balance.  I have not had enough
experience with other Li batteries to comment on their BMS.  And maybe the
new batteries have a higher top balance current a faster to reach full
charge.  sorry for the poor explanation.  The Simpliphi to be CC agnostic.


On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 12:31 PM Maverick Brown 
wrote:

> Chris,
>
> It should be fine. I have a few deployments using LFP batteries, including
> SimpliPhi 3.8s on XW-MPPT60-150, etc.
>
> I figured since Fortress and Discover have similar documents, SimpliPhi
> would as well:
>
>
> https://simpliphipower.com/wp-content/uploads/documentation/phi-series/simpliphi-power-phi-battery-schneider-integration-guide.pdf
>
> I recommend upgrading the charge controller to the latest v1.09 software.
> If you don’t  have a COMBOX or setup tool, that may be harder than doable.
>
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
> Maverick Brown
> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
> SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection
> maver...@mavericksolar.com
> Work: 512-919-4493
> Cell: 512-460-9825
>
> On Dec 10, 2021, at 10:42 AM,  <
> ch...@oasismontana.com> wrote:
>
> Hi folks:
>
> We’re helping out a fellow who’s upgrading his battery bank and is
> seriously considering SimpliPhi’s LFP batteries.  His charge controller
> is the Schneider Conext MPPT60-150; I’m looking at the specs for it and
> am wondering if it will really accommodate the lithium technology?  We
> had problems with older Schneider products (and poor product support) and
> have generally shied away from them, so any advice you can offer would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Sincerely,
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
> 406-777-4309 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers

[Darryl Thayer]

Jay I am confused as usual, what are the loads?  AC or DC?  How are you
charging the battery from the generator or how is the battery powering the
loads?   What is the desired current or the size of the generator?  sorry
if this I dumb question

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM Jay  wrote:

> I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly
> 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v.
>
> He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is
> total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back.
>
> One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey.
>
> Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc?
>
> It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator.
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Harris lithium battery as drop-in replacement for Outback RE2200 AGM?

[Darryl Thayer]

forgive me I am not the brightest bulb.  But if you are replacing the
Outback 2200 RE with 2100 AH and about 1100 AH usable, or @  51V then 56
kWh with Lithium, 62 kWh, Do you have the charging capacity to charge at
280 amps?  This is to allow full use of the solar array.  One of the things
I have found with LA batteries at high charge rates causes shortened
battery life.  Check with Harris for the maximum charge rate.  You will be
charging two in parallel the battery BMS will have to handle the BMS in
each battery.  Also, check the top balance current of the batteries
to assure the low cells can be balanced in the perhaps 4 hours. The charge
controllers will limit on voltage and the batteries will be in top balance
current, is this ok with Harris?  You will use multiple charge controllers,
I try to set the voltages a little lower on two of the charge controllers
to create a tapered charge.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 10:50 AM  wrote:

> Does anybody have insight as to the Harris lithium battery and its use as
> a replacement for a RE2200 AGM that needs replacement?
>
>
>
> Our setup is dual Radian 8048s for a full off-grid home with 14KW of
> solar. System has performed fine but the AGMs are not doing well holding
> charge and customer is ready to move to lithium.
>
>
>
> For those with background, did you use the multi-battery controller? Was
> the Mate and its BMS capability sufficient for lithium use?
>
>
>
> Here is the battery we are planning on and will use two of these : RELi48-31.0
> - Harris Battery - Industrial & Commercial Battery Supplier
> 
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi all, my experiance, is a Lead Acid battery is acceptable under 480
Storage Batteries.  480 is the older article and Lead Acid has been used
with great success particularly under 48 volts with no outside disconnect
required. 480.7(A)

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:37 PM Eric Smiley  wrote:

> Sol-Ark says it has UL9540 with Simpli-Phi
> https://www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/
>
> You should ask for documentation.
>
> NFPA 855 and the new electrical code rules are going to change the
> off-grid market drastically.
> Not only do you need the inverter and battery certified to work together
> per UL9540, the charge controller has to be part of the system too -
> mixing MidNite, Morningstar, Outback, Magnum, Schneider, Victron, etc.
> components will likely be verboten.
> To make it more confusing, only one manufacturer - either the inverter/PCU
> manufacturer or the battery manufacturer gets the UL9540 listing for the
> combination.
>
> Also, there are apparently no NRTL agencies that are equipped or prepared
> to certify lead acid batteries right now.
>
> The size/threshold limitations in NFPA 855 may pose some problems as well,
> since exceeding them either requires UL 9540A cell level certifications,
> which few if any battery manufacturers have yet, or I've been told they can
> be exceeded if a fire propagation study is conducted on site. But I have no
> idea who would be qualified to do that or how much it would cost.
> So, it looks like 1 and 2 family dwellings will be limited to 80 kWh of
> energy storage if located in attached or detached garages and 40 kWh if in
> utility closets, storage spaces, etc. So, ~800 Ah at ~50V appears to be the
> limit. And using lead acid batteries seems to be in limbo.
>
> We are struggling with understanding the implications in Canada as well.
> As North America harmonizes standards, UL9540 and UL1973 are actually
> ANSI/CAN/UL standards and thus apply in both countries.
>
> In a nutshell: the inverter/charge controller is listed to UL1741, the
> battery to UL1973, and the combination to UL9540.
>
> Outback systems are UL9540 with SimpiPhi.
> Schneider Conext systems are UL9540 with Discover
> Magnum doesn't appear to have any UL9540 battery partners
> Sol-Ark has a long list on their website.
>
>
> *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager
> e...@vecoop.ca
> T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004>
> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116>
> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA *
>
> * *
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 11:05, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like California Loren?
>>
>> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs.
>>
>> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.
>>
>>
>> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi
>> batteries stating:
>> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC
>> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The
>> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per
>> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other
>> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL
>> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a
>> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk
>> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540.
>> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk
>> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different
>> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the
>> project.*
>>
>> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the
>> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the
>> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any
>> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and
>> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>> --
>>[image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]
>> 
>>
>>
>> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist
>>
>> Board Member & Worker Owner
>>
>> lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop
>>
>> Office: (530) 274-3671
>>
>> Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624
>>
>> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
>> [image: NABCEP] 
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi Jay, here are my guesses:
1) Customer is using all the power (3.5 is not a large array)
2)  Per William Miller, the batteries are shot.
3) combination of 1 &2
4) Bulk voltage is too high, daily trying to go to bulk voltage drives the
batteries to the grave.  Float voltage is too high, acting as a low charge,
holding off sell.  The return amps never drop to an acceptable level.
5) What is the sell voltage?  Is it too high?
I feel insecure in telling you my settings as I look to you as one of the
top people in the field.

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Jay  wrote:

> I’ve had someone from application engineering at Outback check the
> settings.
>
> All appear normal and correct.
>
> I’m going to be checking the deep setting on grid sell which is most
> likely the culprit.
>
> Thanks for all the advice and I’ll let you all know what find.
>
> Jay
>
> On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Jay
> In Optics RE
> Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6
> under global charge are all switches "disabled"
> in the GS AC Input "Grid",
> Charger "Off",
> "Grid Tie" set
> Offset enable "Yes"
> sell is up to you and battery manufacture
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay  wrote:
>
>> HI All,
>>
>> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install.
>>
>> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up.
>>
>> Radian 4048
>> flexmax 80
>> 3500 watts PV
>> fndc
>> it is on opticsRE
>>
>> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all.  Mostly when it is
>> about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling.  I have disconnected the FNDC
>> and after that it did seem to work better.
>>
>> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on.  Grid
>> voltage is very constant at around 246vac.
>>
>> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made
>> adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today
>> 0 production, CC is at float.
>>
>> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics.
>> But I’m going to have to go.   I think there are 3 possible issues.
>>
>> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low.  And from what
>> I’ve seen that is true.  This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with
>> 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have  a few strings of the
>> array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP
>> voltages are too close in looking at the CC.  Which leads me to think its
>> been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always
>> around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array.
>>
>> 2.  There is a programing issue.
>>
>> 3. There is a hardware issue.
>>
>>
>> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log
>> in.
>> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be
>> great
>> and
>> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much
>> appreciated
>> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some
>> recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue.
>>
>> thanks in advance,
>>
>> jay
>>
>> peltz power
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences

[Darryl Thayer]

Hello all,  When I have done a small 3-phase I have used Outback GVFX 3548
up to 32 kW (120/208) my largest was about 45 kW it worked for 12 years,
then was replaced when the owner wanted to go larger.   I made a 3-phase
design using Solark but SolArk did not understand 3-phase and could not
answer in English my questions. (So I did not submit)  However, they
assumed their equipment could go to about 50 kW when combined into 9
units.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> G'day All,
>
> I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter
> manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you
> know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise,
> that would be extremely helpful.
>
> Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's,
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation

[Darryl Thayer]

Regarding 3 Power Walls PWs, more solar modules, and inverters.   I hope
this is helpful, I am always going to first principles.  You did not
mention what the customer expectations are.  I see three common
possibilities, 1) For backup power, in which case you need generation
control, such as the AC Diversion control that Magnum solar used to make,
or the frequency shift of the master PW shutting down the inverters.  I
have no idea how the PWs synchronize.  Depending upon the model and age of
the inverters they will back down until they shut off by frequency shift.
>From full power to shutoff is about 0.6 Hz.  If the inverters do not have
frequency shift power correction the inverters will shut down.  Then stay
down for 5 min until time to restart.   2) TOU or TOD (time of day energy
pricing)  with and without full net metering.  The grid is connected the
solar inverter can export when the battery is full.  When the solar is
insufficient the gateway programming directs the PWs to carry enough of the
load to prevent power import. excessive charges.  If you have two different
pricing a study by Egauge or similar should be done to full fill the
highest cost energy needs.  This study should reveal the lowest price
period and the amount of off-peak energy to buy.  If you have data from the
SMA or Egauge as to the past records you can modify your program using the
probability of sun.  3)  No export, this is similar to backup power except
the grid provides synchronization and the inverters must have non-frequency
power limitation.  This is very tricky..  not sufficient power is


On Sat, Apr 17, 2021 at 2:26 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I think the limit is now stated as 7.6kw if memory serves me right.
>
> Jason
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:11 PM Matt Partymiller  wrote:
>
>> They used to advocate 7.9kW AC/DC per Powerwall.  That number may have
>> gone down recently.  Coupling an inverter on the line side of the backup
>> gateway will resolve your issue of meeting homeowner demand.  Tesla will
>> want you to add a CT to that inverter to ensure it does not mess up their
>> monitoring system, though that may already be incorrectly configured and
>> not monitoring the whole home if the system is backup only.
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt Partymiller
>>
>> General Manager
>>
>> Solar Energy Solutions, LLC
>>
>> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
>> Indianapolis
>>
>> 859-312-7456 (Office)
>>
>> 877-312-7456 (General)
>> m...@sesre.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com
>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>> Behalf Of *Kirk Herander, VSE
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 16, 2021 11:13 AM
>> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all
>> new to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it
>> presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it
>> through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm
>> wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can
>> regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage.
>> What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce
>> the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand.
>>
>> If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to
>> the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid
>> goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar *
>>
>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>>
>> *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!*
>>
>> *www.vermont.solar*
>> 
>>
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>>
>> 802.863.1202
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation

[Darryl Thayer]

Hello, I hope this helps.  I have very little PW experience, the one i was
involved in had a 1741 transfer switch with grid monitoring on the mains.
When the grid failed the switch would disconnect from the Grid and connect
the PW to the panel or sub-panel.  The PW charges from the AC source when
it is fully charged it stops acting like a load, maybe the maximum load it
acts like is 7.5 kW when charging but the minimum is 0.  I would think
three could charge at 3x 7.5 kW or 22.5 kW down to 0 when fully charged.
However, the game changes when it comes to discharging.   The PWs all have
to be authorized to follow the direction of the 1741 monitoring and all
have to be coordinated combining to serve the load..  I don't know how this
works in practice.  There are people with several PWs working in parallel.
 (maybe these are later models)

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 10:38 AM Kirk Herander, VSE 
wrote:

> Hello all,
> I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new
> to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it
> presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it
> through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm
> wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can
> regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage.
> What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce
> the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand.
> If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to
> the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid
> goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here.
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!*
>
> *www.vermont.solar*
> 
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.863.1202
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pool heating solutions

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi Chris, It is about 30 or 40 years since I installed solar pool heating.
0) a pool cover is the best heat source, should be easy on and off
1) use an ECM pool pump, big cost savings. As the pump will run a lot.  It
will quickly pay for itself
2) I liked the 4 foot, 3 foot? wide headers and downcomers with EPDM rubber
tubes.
I am not crazy consider a large solar PV Array and an Air Source heat pump
3) They come in various lengths.   8,10,12,feet?

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:22 PM  wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> I have an old customer who’s moved to Palm Springs, CA; and she’s looking
> for some pool heating ideas.  Please feel free to contact me off list.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 15 issue

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi, could it be a soft grid issue?  Where if you put power into the grid,
it changes voltages?  Measure the grid voltage using a recording meter like
an Egauge, use the one (1) second scale (10 minutes regestar). Sorry if
this is of no help.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 5:58 PM Tump  wrote:

> Folks I have been asked to review a issue w/ this inverter.  Solectria PVI
> 15 DMGI245 S/N 070924-14, 3 ph 480V inverter, 70 Solon Blue 230 Watt
> modules. Issue is; the inverter shuts off due towhees 2 messages;
> “Contactor Fail" or "AC Contact Open”. Happens more frequently during
> cloudy weather, but it apparently its faulting more frequently.
> After reset once the inverter restarts you can hear the contactor pull in
> and then it faults, contactor has been replaced multiple times. I have not
> been on site yet.
> Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Tump
>
> *t...@swnl.net*   *www.SWNL.net*
> Solarwinds Northernlights
> *   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California*
> * 207-832-7574   Cl.
> 610-517-8401  *
>   *Blair "TUMP" May*
>
>
> *     MAINE'S CHARTER  *   *
> NABCEP"Certified PV Installer"*
>
>
> *   MAINE'S CHARTER ctria  **
> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"*
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall

[Darryl Thayer]

Here is my two cents worth.  the PW is "grid following" and so is the sunny
boy when the grid is up.  When the grid fails the PW becomes grid forming,
bi-directional, inverter charger with frequency shift to control charging.
The newer SBs will accept frequency shifts and be controlled.  So yes it
should work, but I have not tried this, and someone with experience should
answer.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 1:19 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Mr Hill
> The PW is AC coupled so any inverter but the newer the better with Freq
> shift capable may take programming to work best.
> Jerry
>
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 10:03 AM Jonathan Hill  wrote:
>
>> So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one?
>>
>> Jon Hill
>> Solar design engineer
>> 530-559-3781
>> solar...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Tesla is ac coupled  you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel,
>> everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill  wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy
>>> inverters ro other string inverters?
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk?

[Darryl Thayer]

 Nick, Larry has it correct, the 4kW autotransformer (PSX 240) will use
both of the 120-volt legs of the inverter.  It has two winding each able to
handle one leg to neutral, but able to transfer power from one leg to the
other.  You can have  8000 Watts on either leg, one at a time,
continuously, as both legs contribute.  The autotransformer transfers power
from one leg, 4000 watts, and the other leg gets its power directly from
the inverter.  This allows the use of a 120-240 volt subpanel with auto
transfer balancing of the inverter legs.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 5:08 PM Dustin Douglas  wrote:

> Hi Nick,
>
> The 1400w difference is in terms of a DC load on an AC output, which is
> common when using variable speed appliances that use internal diodes that
> modify the sine wave. This does not apply to true AC loads where the
> Sol-Ark can do 4800w continuous at 120V.
>
> Dustin Douglas
> Engineering Support Lead
> (972)575-8875 ext. 108
> www.Sol-Ark.com
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Wed, 03 Feb 2021 15:21:33 -0600 *Amos Post
> >* wrote 
>
> Thanks Larry,
>
> This would be a 240V to 120V step down configuration correct?  So the sub
> panel would be 120V only?
>
> Best,
> Amos
>
>
>Amos Post
>Integrity Energy
>   W 802.763.7023
>C 802.291.2188
> ienergyVT.com 
> Facebook 
>
> On Feb 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:
>
> Amos,
>
> When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX
> will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay
> balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a
> sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel.
>
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
> 
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post 
> wrote:
>
> We have had this issue with a recent installation.  It’s a new off-grid
> house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power
> tools.  The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor,
> table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps
> or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air
> compressor and table saw.  The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP
> each.  What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load
> on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output.
>
> Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for
> “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240
> to 120.  My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these
> loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the
> road...  Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of
> the house loads using the PSX-240?..
> 
>
>Amos Post
>Integrity Energy
>   W 802.763.7023
>C 802.291.2188
> ienergyVT.com 
> Facebook 
>
> On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:
>
> If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to
> balance the loads?
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese  wrote:
>
> Good morning Wrenches,
>
> I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but
> have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with
> the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400
> watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention
> to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400
> watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems
> like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled
> scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple
> weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment.
>
> How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have
> NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site?
>
> Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an
> upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX
> mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if
> the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly
> through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the
> majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with
> imbalance shutdowns.
>
> There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the
> thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s
> 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these
> shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long
> enough history with them to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[Darryl Thayer]

The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line current and the neutral
current inside the device.  If some of the neutral current is returning
through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the imbalance will trip the
device.  The generator neutral and the inverter neutral must have a common
neutral-ground bond and only one!
Your presentation indicates operational differences, multiple bonding
points (two or more) can cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source
changes occur.  The load-source changes can affect the tripping result.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:23 PM jay  wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked
> inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally
> for 10+ years.
>
> Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI
> outlets and GFCI breakers.
>
> Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only
> after 3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a
> bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.
>
> The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during
> warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current
> is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all
> the rest of the charge cycle.
>
>
> Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the
> whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue
> the outlets would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why
> at the end and not the beginning?
>
> I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not
> working well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.
>
> Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent

[Darryl Thayer]

I think the earlier code required a 45 degree slope for any vent above
ceiling, attic space


On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:07 PM Jerry Shafer  wrote:

> I have relocated roof vents several times, just have to make sure they
> comply, no P traps, flat or downward trends. Fasten correctly to the
> rafters, sealing both old and new. If you want to do this on the roof under
> the modules same rules apply.
> Jerry
>
> On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 3:17 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing
>> vents.  Now I find one that is just in the way.  My foreman suggests we 90
>> it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls
>> all the time.  Is there any concern about this practice?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question

[Darryl Thayer]

They are like LA batteries and have a cycle count affect lifetime and like
LA batteries the life cycle depend upon DOD per cycle. They also have a
calendar life.  It is generally accepted that LIFE batteries have 5000 deep
cycles and 10,000 equivalent cycles if they are shallow, slow discharge and
slow charge.   In a LA battery the discharge state is about 1.8 x
thicking of the plate.  The LIFE  plates thicken about 4%?  so they do have
a mechanically determined cycle life.   AGM pure lead plates in Outback and
Kilovault have a cycle life of 3000 equivalent cycles if the cycles are
shallow.  (meaning 50%  DOD, 6000 times)The NCO type high energy
density batteries have a shorter cycle life of about 1500 cycles, however
Jeff Dahm has additives in Some Tesla batteries that extend this, however,
you can not buy these batteries and why would you want to unless you are
doing an electric car?

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 5:52 PM jay  wrote:

>
> Dear lithium experts
>
> Do lithium LFP or NMC batteries have a break in period ( a certain number
> of cycles or any other specific parameters) to have full capacity?
>
> Thx
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Darryl Thayer]

Kilovault Pl AGM for backup power, i am replacing C 15 year old backup
power batteries now much cheaper when cycling is infrequent.  By the way
most AGM need cycling.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 3:10 PM Ken Schaal  wrote:

>  Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with?
> Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs.
> Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered.
> Thanks
> Ken Schaal
> CommonWealth Solar
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both communicate
>> open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I have installed as of
>> this date. Always like Surette and US battery for FLA.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery systems,
>> best battery you will install.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>>
>>> What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Drake
>>> Athens Electric
>>>
>>> --
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers.....

[Darryl Thayer]

The linear current booster is capable of increasing current on say motor
start-up, once the motor is started, its current needs dropdown.  A battery
has high current capability, so I would not expect any advantage in an
LCB.  If the LCB is of the buck-boost type you may be able to run a 24-volt
motor from a 12-volt battery be careful an LCB can overvoltage a motor.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Thanks Jay !  I have project where I want to install a pump in a tank for
> remote watering. If the LCB is used, have you ever tried using a small ATV
> 12V AGM to allow the pump to run in wildfire smoke or at night? Just a
> switch to parallel the the LCB?
>
> Anyone tried this? There are a bunch of LCB's on amazon also.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:44 -0700, Jay  wrote:
>
> Hi John
>
> Sunpumps makes a really good one.
>
> Here is a ebay link showing many of the new probably Chinese (not saying
> they are bad) but they are way less expensive than the US versions.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/i/293234996712?chn=ps
>
> I expect if you shop AliExpress you'll find these exact items.
>
> Cheers
> Jay
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:13 PM, John  wrote:
>
> Yes they are for positive displacement pumps – and the question was where
> can you find them – who makes them...??
>
>
>
> Thanks,  John
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> *Sent:* Monday, 3 August 2020 3:10 am
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Small scale Maximisers/Optimisers.
>
>
>
> Probably an RV water pump? And an LCB should work. Who makes a good LCB
> for this Jay?
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>
> *"we go where powerlines don't"*
>
> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ *
>
> *e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net *
>
> *text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:34:34 -0700, Jay  wrote:
>
> Hi john,
>
>
>
> I'm not sure which pumps you are talking about. Are these positive
> displacement, and if so then an LCB is what you need.
>
>
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:26 AM, John  wrote:
>
> Where can you find some small maximisers/optimisers for a solar-only
> pump.   This would be for a surface pump like the Flojet 11, 12 or 17
> litre/min pumps.  They tend to keep the pump operating when a cloud goes
> over or in low-light conditions.I think they are available for the 9325
> but its probably over-kill for the Flojets.
>
> Cheers for suggestions – John Veix,N.Z.
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application

[Darryl Thayer]

Also my supplier has XHHW rated at 1000 volts

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 9:18 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> I would not worry as 1000 volt AC has a 1400 volt peak, voltage,
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 10:33 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
>> I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several
>> brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my
>> understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a test
>> apply of over 600v for a short period  without breakdown. But under normal
>> operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And this test is done
>> with AC voltage, not DC.
>>
>> "*UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable*
>>
>> UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was
>> recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable to
>> market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products must use
>> a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC Hipot test on
>> the completed cable. This test requires each insulated conductor in
>> finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for one minute
>> without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, it is suitable
>> for 1kV use."
>>
>> Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v
>> wire if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper rating
>> should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire?
>>
>> What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my application?
>> Thanks.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] dual rated 600/1000v cable for HV battery application

[Darryl Thayer]

I would not worry as 1000 volt AC has a 1400 volt peak, voltage,

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 10:33 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> I need to spec battery cable for a nominal 850 vdc LFP bank. Several
> brands of power cable list their rating at a dual 600/1000v. it is my
> understanding that to be listed in this manner, the cable must pass a test
> apply of over 600v for a short period  without breakdown. But under normal
> operation IMO, the voltage is not to exceed 600v. And this test is done
> with AC voltage, not DC.
>
> "*UL 1277: Power and Control Tray Cable*
>
> UL 1277, the standard for electrical power and control tray cable, was
> recently updated, allowing manufacturers with UL approved tray cable to
> market their product as 600V/1kV rated. To be dual rated, products must use
> a recognized 1kV rated conductor and pass a higher voltage AC Hipot test on
> the completed cable. This test requires each insulated conductor in
> finished cable to withstand a specified voltage range for one minute
> without breakdown. If a product passes the AC Hipot test, it is suitable
> for 1kV use."
>
> Am I getting this right? And If so, one should not use this 600/1000v wire
> if normal operating voltage is above 600v as is my case? Proper rating
> should be dual 1000/2000v like PV wire?
>
> What do you experienced high voltage battery gurus use in my application?
> Thanks.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

[Darryl Thayer]

Yes but see Article100.1 for the definition of accessible and readily
accessible, to access you need a ladder.  implies I think where the 8-foot
idea come from
I think this is poor writing, but it is accepted to be beyond reach

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:02 AM AE Solar 
wrote:

> Kirk,
> Not sure if this helps but
> 690.31(A)  “where PV source and output circuits operating at max system
> voltages greater than 30v are installed in readily accessible locations,
> circuit conductors shall be guarded or installed in a raceway”
>
> It doesn’t mention 8’ but mentions “readily accessible”. We have AHJs that
> interpret that as 8’ unless a 6’ fence is installed around the array. I
> don’t have a reference for those measurements though...just feedback we
> have gotten from inspectors
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:38 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
>> All,
>> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could
>> point me to in the NEC? Thanks.
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW

[Darryl Thayer]

I was trying to charge a Nissan Leaf with a ? Iam not sure but two VFX i
think old age.. i mostly rember having the problem.  I think the car
harger had a max of 2kw

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020, 3:41 PM Jay  wrote:

> I’ve got offgrid  2 clients and they have no issues.
>
> They each have a Bolt and can choose the charging rate. They can run it at
> either power. But only use higher power when they have lots of sun.
> Older Stacked vfx and Schneider xw, no issues.
>
> I would expect the SW to work, however it’s an odd beast as it’s waveform
> steps change with load. More load, more steps, therefor cleaner so maybe at
> lower charge rate it’s not clean enough.
>
> As to your issue it could be power factor Being really poor.
> Can you tell us what inverter, yea 5 years ago is a long time.
>
>
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Darryl Thayer  wrote:
>
> 
> I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from
> an off-grid system.  I did not record my events but the inverter had twice
> the power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip
> out.  I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be
> different with different cars.  However, I was warned the ferroresonant was
> to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the
> output wave problems showing up on the input.   The off-grid customer gave
> up.
>
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III 
> wrote:
>
>> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power.
>> Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000
>> watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from
>> the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger
>> will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you
>> cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your
>> inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big
>> chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440
>> watts max.
>>
>> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW,
>> so too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE
>> (smart charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V
>> or 12 at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15
>> or a bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong
>> melting plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make
>> sure your outlet is as well.
>>
>> --
>> Hilton Dier III
>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>> Renewable Energy Design
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a Bolt with an SW

[Darryl Thayer]

I think you said it well, about 5 years ago I tried to charge a car from an
off-grid system.  I did not record my events but the inverter had twice the
power of the level two charger, yet the inverter would get hot and trip
out.  I was told a ferroresonant transformer may help, and it might be
different with different cars.  However, I was warned the ferroresonant was
to stop input wave problems from arriving at the output not to prevent the
output wave problems showing up on the input.   The off-grid customer gave
up.

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM Hilton Dier III  wrote:

> The issue with EV chargers is that they create a lot of reactive power.
> Think of it as "slosh" in the waveform. That means that charging at 2,000
> watts sloshes a lot more than 2kW through the cable, plug, outlet, and from
> the inverter. If you've got a reasonably good sinewave inverter the charger
> will like it fine. However, the inverter might not like the charger if you
> cut things too close. Make sure to have a lot of top end left in your
> inverter. Always use a transformer based inverter. The SW series has a big
> chunk of metal in it, so that's good. At 120V the Bolt will only draw 1440
> watts max.
>
> An aftermarket Bolt 240V charger can draw up to 32 amps. That's 7.7 kW, so
> too big for an SW. Treat it more like 40 amps. The OEM 120/240 EVSE (smart
> charging cord) that comes with the car can draw 8 or 12 amps at 120V or 12
> at 240V. Assume that the 8 amps is really 12 and the 12 is really 15 or a
> bit more. I have seen 15 amp plugs and outlets with the hot prong melting
> plastic around it. The plug on the OEM EVSE is 20A rated but make sure your
> outlet is as well.
>
> --
> Hilton Dier III
> Missisquoi River Hydro
> Renewable Energy Design
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng

[Darryl Thayer]

In my experiance if the combiner is in the sun breakers will be hot
breakers are a thermal device and should be kept at room temperature.  Try
substituting the HCAC type breaker for the stanard breaker

On Thu, May 21, 2020, 8:57 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and Enphase
> IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 microinverters each
> coming into an Enphase AC combiner.
>
> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers and
> the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been
> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6
> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept
> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap,
> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker.
>
> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a different
> branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped simultaneously. We
> checked that branch circuit and could not find any fault. It seems unlikely
> that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched
> out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit.
>
> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers
> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on another
> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One
> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a fusible
> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line
> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on if
> there is in fact a fault.
>
> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase systems
> in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One turned out to be
> branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed on different
> breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal fault which
> eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke billowing out of
> it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. This case
> seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery?

[Darryl Thayer]

I have spoken with a li battery
researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full charge voltage and they
will last over 25 years.   But go above or below bottom and trouble

On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay  wrote:

> One question I have for those more versed than me in lithium is, I’m under
> the impression that having a lithium battery in float for years isn’t good
> for it. Or at the very least it has to be cycled with some regularity.
>
> I’d like to hear data on that
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray  wrote:
>
> 
>
> I suggest starting with a very simple look at the continuous output rating
> of the battery and match that to the inverter continuous rating. This ends
> up with quite a bit more battery than you might think at first.  However,
> if the customer paid the big bucks for a battery backup system, they should
> at least get enough battery to operate the inverter at its rated power.
> Anything less, I would consider poor design.  The same goes for lead acid
> batteries, they just don't work well, even on grid, when the battery is
> undersized.  Even lead acid batteries have maximum current output ratings
> that should at least be matched to the inverter rating.
>
> If you WERE going to under size the battery, then you should keep it safe
> by reducing the size of the inverter battery breaker as well.   I know this
> "micro battery for GTB" is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its right.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:
>
> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked:  "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC
> coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the smallest Li battery I would want for
> stable operation?"
>
> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one often finds the ratings in
> kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours. This is an easy conversion for us
> energy nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using watts & watt-hours with
> occasional conversions to amp-hours.
>
> I suggest that you start with the spec sheet (of whichever brand lithium
> battery is on your radar), & see what the manufacturer says about
> "allowable rate of recharge". You may find that C/2 is an acceptable rate
> with several manufacturers, Mark--much faster than what we're accustomed to
> with typical lead-acid batteries. Let's assume:
>
> * ...that your AC coupled PV array crests around 1800 watts to the battery
> when there are no loads
> * ...that the battery is below 100% state of charge, and
> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal.
>
> Let's further assume that those conditions represent your battery's
> highest energy rate in either direction.
>
> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours dividing by 48v nominal = 75
> amp-hours in the above hypothetical situation.
>
> ++
>
> The rate at which a battery can receive energy is (usually) also the rate
> at which it can comfortably deplete, so let's briefly look at the flip
> side: Assuming the battery mfr. wants the watt-hours to be no less than two
> times the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour (C/2) battery should not be
> depleted faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian, Mark, could exceed that
> if the loads demand it--& maybe your loads don't. Motor starting surges
> should probably be part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt to ask the
> mfr.'s opinion about short term surges which briefly deplete the battery
> faster than the hypothetical two hour rate.
>
> By approaching this question based on the battery manufacturer do's &
> don'ts, one improves the chance of getting warranty coverage should it
> later be needed. "What the large print giveth, the fine print taketh away."
>
> The Wrench List is the Bomb!
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Landline: 970-731-4675
> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
> ᐧ
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

[Darryl Thayer]

my two cents worth, 690.11 says turn off from all arcs, that means serial
and parallel
that means module lwevel shutdown
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