Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches]

The reason for less white PV wire I believe is due to less UV resistance 
capability.  Time showed that it was inferior to black.  Using black in 
lieu of white, and color coding at the terminal connections is an 
allowed practice and that is why less white PV wire is used I believe.  
Chris


On 6/5/2024 4:22 PM, Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches wrote:


White PV wire was something we used to sell often, but that demand has 
dropped off in the last 5 years or so and always wondered why.


Thanks for sharing William

Sunny Regards,

Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140

**

*Bryan Norkunas *

*PV-Cables Inc. *

*989 Milton Ave Ste 1D*

*Ferndale CA 95536***

(707) 923-3000 office

www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/>

Please print only if necessary.

NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of 
the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or 
privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all 
copies of the original message.



*From:* RE-wrenches  on 
behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches 


*Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 12:53:52 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Cc:* William Miller 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

Friends:

On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color 
should my grounded PV conductor be?


History:

In the beginning, negative leads were always black.

When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, 
the requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 
200.6(A)(3).


When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the 
negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.


Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not 
solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor 
or a combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  
This grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection 
and interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had 
GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or 
functionally.


Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back 
to needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.


I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded 
lead.  They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to 
verify, I called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was 
talking about.  They did not know the term functionally grounded and 
could not verify if their equipment established a ground connection, 
solid or otherwise, to either polarity.


This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is 
causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the 
PV circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it 
elsewhere will defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.


Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?

Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty 
of Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They 
said none of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect 
they should be using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that 
because Sol-Arc can’t tell me it the PV circuits are functionally 
grounded or not.  Frustrating!


Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically 
says the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are 
installing Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells 
white PV wire.


Confusing? Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say: 
“Solar?  It can’t be that complicated!”


William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?

"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG 
wire"


Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor 
to the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the 
suggested place to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why 
does it make a difference? It would still be electrically bonded to 
the grounding terminal in the inverter.


I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding 
conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the 
inverter at a home. I am getting an F08 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[david quattro via RE-wrenches]

in their installation manuals, SolArk indicates black and red colors for PV
conductors.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches]

SolArk arrays are ungrounded. However, because they are transformerless,
when the inverter is operating, there is a reference to ground on the DC
side via the AC side neutral bond to ground. So, a ground fault on the AC
side will also cause a GF error.

Many transformerless interactive inverters are using Isolation Resistance
testing to detect ground fault, rather than measuring current. Sol-Ark
doesn't have any literature to say what method of GF detection they use,
but it is unlikely there is a reference to ground via the GF detection
method.

In any case, they aren't solidly grounded, and none of the DC conductors
should be white or grey, they can both be hot with respect to ground.

Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager

 250.703.6004
 e...@vecoop.ca
 888.386.0116
 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3
 viridiansolar.ca
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https://viridiansolar.ca=gmail-html=1702155901939000=AOvVaw3SHpXB-WRSlzWmjpz4htqG>



Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide
services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We
are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich
history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider
home.



On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 at 13:07, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
> grounded PV conductor be?
>
>
>
> History:
>
>
>
> In the beginning, negative leads were always black.
>
>
>
> When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
> requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).
>
>
>
> When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the
> negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.
>
>
>
> Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not
> solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
> combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
> grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
> interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
> had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.
>
>
>
> Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
> needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.
>
>
>
> I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
> They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
> called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
> They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
> their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
> either polarity.
>
>
>
> This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is
> causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV
> circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will
> defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?
>
>
>
> Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
> Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
> of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
> using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
> tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!
>
>
>
> Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says
> the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing
> Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.
>
>
>
> Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
> It can’t be that complicated!”
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding
>
>
>
> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>
>
>
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
>
>
>
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
> the grounding terminal in the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

2020 NEC® identification requirements in 690.31(B)(2) state that "Only
solidly grounded PV system dc circuit conductors shall be marked in
accordance with 200.6." (200.6 is Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors")

If the circuit is nonsolidly grounded, then positive conductors can be
identified with +, POSITIVE, or POS if color coding is not being used; if
it is, they can be any color other than green white or gray. Nonsolidly
grounded negative conductors can be identified with -, NEGATIVE, or NEG if
color coding is not being used; if it is they can be any color other than
green, white, gray, or red.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 2:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
> grounded PV conductor be?
>
>
>
> History:
>
>
>
> In the beginning, negative leads were always black.
>
>
>
> When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
> requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).
>
>
>
> When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the
> negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.
>
>
>
> Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not
> solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
> combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
> grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
> interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
> had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.
>
>
>
> Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
> needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.
>
>
>
> I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
> They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
> called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
> They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
> their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
> either polarity.
>
>
>
> This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is
> causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV
> circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will
> defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?
>
>
>
> Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
> Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
> of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
> using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
> tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!
>
>
>
> Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says
> the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing
> Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.
>
>
>
> Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
> It can’t be that complicated!”
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding
>
>
>
> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>
>
>
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
>
>
>
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
> in the inverter.
>
>
>
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches]

White PV wire was something we used to sell often, but that demand has dropped 
off in the last 5 years or so and always wondered why.
Thanks for sharing William

Sunny Regards,
[Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]

Bryan Norkunas
PV-Cables Inc.
989 Milton Ave Ste 1D
Ferndale CA 95536
(707) 923-3000 office
www.pv-cables.com<http://www.pv-cables.com/>


 [cid:image002.jpg@01DA17CF.578FC540]  Please print only if necessary.

NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the 
intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by 
replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message.


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
William Miller via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 12:53:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: William Miller 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding


Friends:



On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my 
grounded PV conductor be?



History:



In the beginning, negative leads were always black.



When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the 
requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).



When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative was 
floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.



Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly, but 
through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a combination.  A 
new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This grounding was most often 
done to implement ground fault detection and interruption, or GFDI.  I always 
assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, 
most often indirectly, or functionally.



Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to needing 
grey/white, most often for the negative lead.



I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.  They 
have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I called 
Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.  They did 
not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if their equipment 
established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to either polarity.



This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing the 
GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is 
functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the 
GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.



Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?



Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of 
Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none of 
their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be using 
white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t tell me 
it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!



Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the 
negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing Outback CCs 
you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.



Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?  It 
can’t be that complicated!”



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985





From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]
 On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: Jason Szumlanski
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding



Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?



"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"



Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the 
grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to 
connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? 
It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the inverter.



I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from 
the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am 
getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side 
with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to ground. 
But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a 
source of the fault.







Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

Arent you really working with an EGC though?This would make it bare or green 
insulated.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling 
errors.-- Original message--From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: 
Wed, Jun 5, 2024 4:08 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:Re: 
[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame groundingFriends: On a related 
subject, I was researching the question: What color should my grounded PV 
conductor be?   History: In the beginning, negative leads were always black.   
When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the 
requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3). When 
transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative was 
floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. Then the NEC recognized that 
some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly, but through some components, 
either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a combination.  A new term was created,
  functionally grounded.  This grounding was most often done to implement 
ground fault detection and interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV 
equipment had GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, most often 
indirectly, or functionally. Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  
Therefore we are back to needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.  
 I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.  They 
have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I called 
Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.  They did 
not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if their equipment 
established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to either polarity. This 
distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing the GFDI 
fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is functionally 
grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defea
 t the GFDI and
 may cause nuisance tripping. Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a 
functional ground bond? Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, 
who sells plenty of Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  
They said none of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they 
should be using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc 
can’t tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  
Frustrating! Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically 
says the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing 
Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire. 
Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?  It 
can’t be that complicated!” William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, 
Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: 
RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.or
 g] On Behalf Of Jason
 Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesSent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AMTo: 
RE-wrenchesCc: Jason SzumlanskiSubject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel 
frame grounding Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? 
"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" 
Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the 
grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to 
connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? 
It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the 
inverter.  I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding 
conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a 
home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the 
DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to 
ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it 
ou
 t as
 a source of the fault.   Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
grounded PV conductor be?



History:



In the beginning, negative leads were always black.



When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).



When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative
was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.



Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly,
but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.



Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.



I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
either polarity.



This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing
the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is
functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the
GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.



Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?



Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!



Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the
negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing Outback
CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.



Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
It can’t be that complicated!”



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding



Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?



"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"



Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
in the inverter.



I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
rule it out as a source of the fault.







Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

This is a partial backup scenario and the main service panel has a solid
neutral to ground bond. I have not been able to find anywhere else where
there is a bond, but there is always the chance that there is a neutral
wire in a switch box or outlet box somewhere in the house that is touching
an equipment ground or metallic enclosure.



On Wed, Jun 5, 2024, 9:53 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> You should be able to land your PV EGC in the inverter ground bar.  You
> could do a quick resistance check to verify the +, - PV
>
> Is there a bond somewhere (upstream service panel or in the Sol-Ark
> itself) between ground and neutral?  If not, this can cause this fault.
>
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 7:03 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>>
>> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG
>> wire"
>>
>> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
>> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
>> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
>> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
>> in the inverter.
>>
>> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
>> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
>> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
>> DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
>> to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
>> rule it out as a source of the fault.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
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>>
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>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jason,

You should be able to land your PV EGC in the inverter ground bar.  You
could do a quick resistance check to verify the +, - PV

Is there a bond somewhere (upstream service panel or in the Sol-Ark itself)
between ground and neutral?  If not, this can cause this fault.

On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 7:03 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
>
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
> in the inverter.
>
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
> DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
> to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
> rule it out as a source of the fault.
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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> other:
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>

-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches]

I usually get the 08 GFDI error when I haven’t bonded neutral to ground 
downstream. (Typically because I booted up the inverter after DC connection but 
before any AC wires are landed.) That goes away once it is fully commissioned. 

I get the F23 - Tz_GFCI_OC_Fault If is related to the PV array, leakage or 
bonding. 

I do always run a properly sized ground wire from the array to the inverter 
ground. 

Thank you,

Maverick

Maverick Brown
Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
 • Solar Commander Remote Power
 • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection 
maver...@mavericksolar.com
512-460-9825



> On Jun 5, 2024, at 8:03 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
> 
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
> 
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the 
> grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to 
> connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? 
> It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the 
> inverter. 
> 
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from 
> the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am 
> getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side 
> with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to 
> ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule 
> it out as a source of the fault.
> 
> 
> 
> Jason Szumlanski 
> Florida Solar Design Group 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
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> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?

"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"

Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
in the inverter.

I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
rule it out as a source of the fault.



Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Sorry. $26.

https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR-150-200-Amp/dp/B0CQLLMJSR/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nBkEJ_I45rWhjLizp-sNRe96GAusMPeLrV_hHB_AHqS-PYYUBpCOZW61zhW7w9Nr6aw3jveD5Yy-vhQwntrpy2F7qtyGTPjT-qoOCEUWYciI5TZyidNca2hFolpBVpY5eaf-62n1oO-EhsWNpWyyvQLlZt_de_cSMKtD5sQCqEr2lndRphXKRpNpai1yAp1alK7DIy_lBCipNBFwtVGWVuiFC0ZI_x1zG7lboOVqJU6nFZqgOvMGbx4R_qo53GtrQ5QPRtEL_cEg_rwzK6ERkIyQ6RL_ofS8Dj4f0h2oIyE.Q4CtcWkC33vhyQh4SPTTRHX16WcdaKhfiHVP-oHJtkw_tag=se=405275792334=t=9053055=g=e=1514810600998942803=kwd-847960718866=7662_9903424=ch+generator+interlock+kit=1711585215=8-1-spons_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY=1

This fits a 200A CH panel that could be used as a combiner panel with the
interlocked breaker as a bypass.

I was commenting generally about interlock kits for existing panels. I
can't remember the last time I paid over $70 for any existing panel for an
interlock kit when a customer wanted a generator inlet installed (unrelated
to solar). Maybe it's different elsewhere, but every panel installed in my
area since the 70s has an interlock kit somewhere on the Interwebs for
cheap.


Jason



On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 8:13 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some
> research before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5
> breakers (4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are
> talking apples against oranges.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
> *To:* Kirk Herander
> *Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
> on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
> legacy panels.
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
> I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked
> at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have
> to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Kirk:
>
>
>
> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>
>
>
> Let’s consider the options:
>
>
>
> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
> for what we are talking about).
>
>
>
> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>
>
>
> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
> can really add up.
>
>
>
> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>
>
>
> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
> That’s why we do it.
>
>
>
> Wm
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
> including multiple breakers.
>
>
>
> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
> QO breakers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
&g

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research
before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers
(4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are talking
apples against oranges.



Thank you.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
*To:* Kirk Herander
*Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.



Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.








*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are suffici

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.

Jason


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked
> at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have
> to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Kirk:
>>
>>
>>
>> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s consider the options:
>>
>>
>>
>> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
>> for what we are talking about).
>>
>>
>>
>> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
>> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
>> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
>> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
>> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
>> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
>> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
>> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
>> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
>> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
>> can really add up.
>>
>>
>>
>> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
>> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
>> That’s why we do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
>> including multiple breakers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
>> QO breakers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>>
>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>>
>> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>>
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>>
>> 802.559.1225
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> Replies below.
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
>> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
>> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> William,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
>> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
>> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
>> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
>> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>>
>>
>>
>> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
>> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
>> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
>> the

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Kirk:
>
>
>
> Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.
>
>
>
> Let’s consider the options:
>
>
>
> ·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
> for what we are talking about).
>
>
>
> ·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less
> than $10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I
> use a CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard
> router.  Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in
> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.
> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate.
>
>
>
> ·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to
> be a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
> specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
> can really add up.
>
>
>
> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.
>
>
>
> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
> That’s why we do it.
>
>
>
> Wm
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
> including multiple breakers.
>
>
>
> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
> QO breakers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.559.1225
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Jason:
>
>
>
> Replies below.
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>
>
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality
> that will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired
> or replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered
> at full capacity.
>
>
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.










*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.

Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.





*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225


On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Replies below.
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
> *To:* will...@millersolar.com
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You
> are welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.
>
>
>
> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
> of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality
> that will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired
> or replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered
> at full capacity.
>
>
>
> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
> are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
> to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
> function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
> undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
> of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
> Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
> the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
> there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
> deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
> a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
> generator running.)
>
>
>
> But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
> with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
> 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
> The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
> backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
> believe this is overkill.  QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover
> that overlaps the breakers.  Other breakers are configured so the contact
> points for the breaker bus are recessed.  You need to convince your AHJ
> that this satisfies the requirement.  Part of the discussion should include
> the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not
> understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I
> tell inexperienced plan-checkers).
>
>
>
> With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to
> accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively
> cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I
> get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a
> generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically
> only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square
> D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is
> incompatible with the interlock device.  Since bypass is an emergency
> condition, I sometimes limit my b

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
believe this is overkill.  QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover
that overlaps the breakers.  Other breakers are configured so the contact
points for the breaker bus are recessed.  You need to convince your AHJ
that this satisfies the requirement.  Part of the discussion should include
the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not
understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I
tell inexperienced plan-checkers).



With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish
this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective
option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept
for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on
an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single
backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a
backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the
interlock device.  Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes
limit my bypass to 100 amps.  If you want full bypass ampacity you can
build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker.  Here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/Interlock.JPG>
is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked.  Here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/RM_Interlock.pdf>
is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options.



Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is
appreciated.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956

Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load
shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an excerpt.



*Error! Fi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

s
> > > function can be adjusted or turned off.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing:  I may have done a poor job
> > > describing how I see your project best approached.  Below is a diagram
> > > that may do a better job.  Power flow is from left to right:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///yH5BAEALAABAAEAAAIBRAA7]
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single
> > > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps.  Ergo
> > > #4 copper.  The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp
> > > breakers.  If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual
> > > you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and
> > > with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.”  The separate panel is
> > > redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located
> > > in the “Main Breaker Panel.”
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Contemplate this:  Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps,
> > > does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker
> > > provides.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I hope I have been more clear.  I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money
> > > on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Call me if I can help in any way.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > William
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the
> > > bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn on the bypass
> > > breaker without turning off the inverter output breakers.  See photos of
> > > the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass very
> > > handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can
> > > restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///yH5BAEALAABAAEAAAIBRAA7]
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Wm
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Miller Solar
> > > 
> > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> > > 
> > > 805-438-5600
> > > 
> > > www.millersolar.com
> > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/3deb3f7f51095bae3cfd8b42df221b4dca044e0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F=1613865=79e9e2e0e8d662d0]
> > > 
> > > CA Lic. 773985
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > From: Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com
> > > [ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM
> > > To: William Miller; RE-wrenches
> > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each
> > > inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be
> > > spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at
> > > a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion.
> > > The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can
> > > supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to
> > > the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output
> > > conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out
> > > definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
> > > problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
> > > or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
> > > panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
> > > all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
> > > practical way to make that happen.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4
> > > x 150A backfed breake

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

> with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.”  The separate panel is
>> redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located
>> in the “Main Breaker Panel.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Contemplate this:  Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps,
>> does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker
>> provides.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I have been more clear.  I also hope you don’t spend a lot of
>> money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Call me if I can help in any way.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the
>> bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn *on* the
>> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers.  See
>> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass
>> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client
>> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/l/3deb3f7f51095bae3cfd8b42df221b4dca044e0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F=1613865=79e9e2e0e8d662d0>
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM
>> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as
>> each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would
>> be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so
>> at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my
>> opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter
>> can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to
>> the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output
>> conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out
>> definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
>> problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
>> or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
>> panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
>> all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
>> practical way to make that happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need
>> 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost
>> effective way to accomplish this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an
>> inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the
>> supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three
>> of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A
>> generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the
>> output conductors need to be sized accordingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
>> inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
>> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
>> over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
>> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
>> load-center?
>>
>>
>>
>> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the
>> inverters?  Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider
>> having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately
>> sized breaker to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as
>> required and you can isolate any inverter for service
>>
>>
>>
>> What size 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

in any way.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the
>> bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn *on* the
>> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers.  See
>> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass
>> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client
>> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/l/3deb3f7f51095bae3cfd8b42df221b4dca044e0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F=1613865=79e9e2e0e8d662d0>
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM
>> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>>
>>
>>
>> #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as
>> each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would
>> be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so
>> at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my
>> opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter
>> can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to
>> the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output
>> conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out
>> definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
>> problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
>> or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
>> panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
>> all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
>> practical way to make that happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need
>> 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost
>> effective way to accomplish this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an
>> inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the
>> supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three
>> of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A
>> generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the
>> output conductors need to be sized accordingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
>> inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
>> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
>> over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
>> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
>> load-center?
>>
>>
>>
>> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the
>> inverters?  Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider
>> having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately
>> sized breaker to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as
>> required and you can isolate any inverter for service
>>
>>
>>
>> What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
>> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
>> you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
>> you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
>> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
>> amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
>> mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches, Jason
I have always either with outback and with solark have always connected
each unit with a distribution panel with breakers regardless of what's in
the inverter package. This same goes for the gen set connections with
proper breakers so not to have to over size the wires.
I have connected to either the gen set input or the grid input both will
work and both can be used to charge the batteries.
Question l do alot of gen set integration and breakers on the genset may
not reflect its actual design output and l have seen multiple times
overloading the genset due to the incorrect math. Use a power factor of .8
of the gen set rating then 75% of that is safe continues operating load.
Now some may argue with this but when l take a 150 kW  genny for a 4 hr
load bank test that's the math that's used.

Your batteries should also be independently fuse or breaker protected
outside of the battery such as a midnite battery combiner breaker cabinet,
required for any more than two banks. I do this with FLA's blue planet and
fortress regardless of the internal breaker supplied.
Fun times

On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 2:27 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>
> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
> total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
> single unit if the rest fail.
>
> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
> that is the case.
>
> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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>
> List rules & etiquette:
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>
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

#4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each
inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be
spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a
minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion.
The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can
supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the
inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors
to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if
generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s.

As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes
problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum
or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A
panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that
all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a
practical way to make that happen.

The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4
x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective
way to accomplish this?

Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an
inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the
supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three
of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A
generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the
output conductors need to be sized accordingly.

Jason


On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
> inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
> over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
> load-center?
>
>
>
> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters?
> Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider having the
> generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker
> to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as required and you can
> isolate any inverter for service
>
>
>
> What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
> you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
> you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
> amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.
>
>
>
> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
> mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the
> generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the
> inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  The
> installation might look like this
> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Inverters/battery_iinverters/Chimney_Rock/Chimney_rock.html>.
> This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A,
> double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed but
> what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The inverters
> will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.)
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output
>
>
>
> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
>
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Hi Dave,

XW inverters do a decent job of explaining generator support mode where
small generators can be supplemented by inverter power to start up large
loads. I believe several other brands can do this, and I believe Sol-Ark is
one of them. But front line customer service wasn't really up to speed when
I contacted them recently. I can't say for certain if it is supported by
Sol-Ark, but it clearly is by Schneider and has always been partnof the XW
family as far as I recall.

As for the continuous ampacity adjustment, I'm not sure if that is
necessary. That would be more a function of the load rather than the
supply. We don't upside 200A utility service conductors that way (in fact,
there is an allowance for downsizing).

Jason



On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:08 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers
> are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both.
> So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will
> switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the
> batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator
> power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would
> think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for
> sure, unless someone else here can verify.
>
> But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it
> could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25
> = 313A rated conductors.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
>> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
>> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
>> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
>> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
>> only panelboard.
>>
>> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
>> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
>> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
>> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
>> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
>> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
>> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
>> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
>> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>>
>> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator
>> in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
>> single unit if the rest fail.
>>
>> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
>> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
>> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
>> that is the case.
>>
>> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
>> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> [image: Logo] 
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com 
> c: (607) 270-0370
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
load-center?



In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters?
Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider having the
generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker
to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as required and you can
isolate any inverter for service



What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.



BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the
generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the
inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  The
installation might look like this
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Inverters/battery_iinverters/Chimney_Rock/Chimney_rock.html>.
This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A,
double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed but
what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The inverters
will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.)



Hope this helps.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
only panelboard.



My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.



Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
single unit if the rest fail.



Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
that is the case.



I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers
are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both.
So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will
switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the
batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator
power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would
think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for
sure, unless someone else here can verify.

But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it
could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25
= 313A rated conductors.

Cheers,
Dave

On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
> only panelboard.
>
> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
> 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.
>
> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
> total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
> single unit if the rest fail.
>
> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
> that is the case.
>
> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
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-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
only panelboard.

My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.

Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
single unit if the rest fail.

Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
that is the case.

I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Max Balchowsky via RE-wrenches]

i like using gutters, it keeps it clean
you can just as easily put the gutter vertical on the side and use close
nipples…..

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that
> are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are
> any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway
> below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps
> 2-in nipples if I have enough room.
>
> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please
> let me know.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

I just checked out the Homegrid batteries. Just throwing this out there. If
there is enough ceiling height you could hang them. That's typically how we
deal with transformers in commercial and industrial settings. We usually
build a permanent gantry out of square tubing, 1/2" rod and strut. Then
ratchet strap or chain hoist them up. Just an idea.

Yes Dave, that's the one.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 9:48 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Very nice Install Michael!  Was that the project on the xxCloud River we
> talked about?
>
> It looks like you have kept the gutter heat gain down to protect
> electronics.  “the rule of thumb is that every 10°C increase in
> temperature reduces component life by half”
>
> https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2017/08/10c-increase-temperature-really-reduce-life-electronics-half/
>
>
>  *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-08-03 10:08 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi Drake,
> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up
> as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single
> phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV
> line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard
> to see, but for seperation, we attached  the pv circuits to the back of the
> gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use
> gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses
> controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery
> hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the
> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the
> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from
> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage
> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch
> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC
> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a
> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new
> diesels not to have that function.
>
>
> ___
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> --
>
>
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
>
> Morningstar Electric
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
>
>
>
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-- 

Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Very nice Install Michael!  Was that the project on the xxCloud River we 
talked about?


It looks like you have kept the gutter heat gain down to protect 
electronics.  "the rule of thumb is that every 10°C increase in 
temperature reduces component life by half"

https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2017/08/10c-increase-temperature-really-reduce-life-electronics-half/

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-08-03 10:08 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi Drake,
Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this 
up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground 
single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half 
mile 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, 
it's kind of hard to see, but for seperation, we attached  the pv 
circuits to the back of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed 
cable tie holders. Often we use gutter dividers. They originate in the 
tall cabinet at the end which houses controls, secondary PV 
disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery hub and (Lynk II). On 
the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the collection and 
distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the batteries are 
small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from the 
transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage 
(alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other 
switch to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In 
the AC cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to 
achieve a generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and 
it's hell on new diesels not to have that function.


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--

Michael Morningstar

Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com




Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] https://offgridsolar1.com/___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Michael,

I think your work looks stellar, and I seriously doubt there would be any
airflow issues.

I plan to use strut to put the inverters out from the wall to deal with the
working depth issue, which should also help with airflow. That was part of
my thought process - even if the inverters don't have much bottom
clearance, there will be a gap off the wall. My issue is that the HomeGrid
batteries are pretty deep, much like the transformer problem that you are
suggesting. I have to get the inverters off the wall to meet the depth
requirements if I want the batteries directly below.

If I have to give them 6" to the gutter I will have to go back to the
drawing board.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 10:59 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> We handle the 15Ks much like most vfds since both have cooling vents in
> the rear and knockouts or wiring compartments in the rear. What we do is
> set the units back so that the rear portion is hanging off of the rear of
> the gutter. The gutter in this case is held off of the wall for air flow.
> It does take some 3D strut work to accomplish. I'm putting a bank of VFDs
> in my woodshop today and will photograph this. Yes, it does place things  a
> few inches out of the frontal plane, but the intent of the code is really
> to prevent things like putting a transformer in front of a panelboard or
> some similar situation.
>
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 6:52 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Lou. I missed that 6" bottom spacing requirement in the manual.
>> That could explain a lot of the installation pictures I have seen.
>>
>> On the flip side, we have seen some examples of installations in this
>> thread without this 6-inch spacing, presumably without any adverse effects.
>> Obviously, NEC requires that we follow the manufacturer's instructions, but
>> for practical purposes or non-NEC installations, I wonder if this bottom
>> spacing is necessary. Perhaps the manufacturer could provide a letter of
>> exception. I might have to reach out to them. The manual seems to indicate
>> the heat dissipation is "from bottom to top," so I'm not sure how critical
>> the intake air spacing really is. I wouldn't want to put anything less than
>> 6 inches above, but perhaps below isn't as critical.
>>
>> My situation is that I want to put a 12x12 gutter above some HomeGrid
>> stacks and the inverters over the gutter. Based on my calculations, if I
>> use more than 2 inches of space between the gutter and inverter, I will
>> exceed the working height limit for the breakers in the inverters.
>>
>> Yes, I am aware of the depth difference between equipment and that will
>> be addressed to meet working space requirements. My technical problem is
>> only the NEC 240.24(A) height limit.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 6:41 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site
>>> visit! Back to Jason's initial question
>>>
>>> If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and
>>> bottom with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom.
>>>
>>> A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great
>>> for us.
>>>
>>> Aloha,
>>>
>>> Lou Russo
>>> (808) 345 6762
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Drake,
 Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this
 up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground
 single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile
 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of
 hard to see, but for seperation, we attached  the pv circuits to the back
 of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often
 we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which
 houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub,
 Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the
 collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the
 batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from
 the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage
 (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch
 to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

We handle the 15Ks much like most vfds since both have cooling vents in the
rear and knockouts or wiring compartments in the rear. What we do is set
the units back so that the rear portion is hanging off of the rear of the
gutter. The gutter in this case is held off of the wall for air flow. It
does take some 3D strut work to accomplish. I'm putting a bank of VFDs in
my woodshop today and will photograph this. Yes, it does place things  a
few inches out of the frontal plane, but the intent of the code is really
to prevent things like putting a transformer in front of a panelboard or
some similar situation.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 6:52 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Thanks, Lou. I missed that 6" bottom spacing requirement in the manual.
> That could explain a lot of the installation pictures I have seen.
>
> On the flip side, we have seen some examples of installations in this
> thread without this 6-inch spacing, presumably without any adverse effects.
> Obviously, NEC requires that we follow the manufacturer's instructions, but
> for practical purposes or non-NEC installations, I wonder if this bottom
> spacing is necessary. Perhaps the manufacturer could provide a letter of
> exception. I might have to reach out to them. The manual seems to indicate
> the heat dissipation is "from bottom to top," so I'm not sure how critical
> the intake air spacing really is. I wouldn't want to put anything less than
> 6 inches above, but perhaps below isn't as critical.
>
> My situation is that I want to put a 12x12 gutter above some HomeGrid
> stacks and the inverters over the gutter. Based on my calculations, if I
> use more than 2 inches of space between the gutter and inverter, I will
> exceed the working height limit for the breakers in the inverters.
>
> Yes, I am aware of the depth difference between equipment and that will be
> addressed to meet working space requirements. My technical problem is only
> the NEC 240.24(A) height limit.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 6:41 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site
>> visit! Back to Jason's initial question
>>
>> If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and
>> bottom with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom.
>>
>> A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great
>> for us.
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>> Lou Russo
>> (808) 345 6762
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Drake,
>>> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this
>>> up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground
>>> single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile
>>> 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of
>>> hard to see, but for seperation, we attached  the pv circuits to the back
>>> of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often
>>> we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which
>>> houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub,
>>> Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the
>>> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the
>>> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from
>>> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage
>>> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch
>>> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC
>>> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a
>>> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new
>>> diesels not to have that function.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on
 a 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in
 groups of 3.

 Thank you,

 Drake


 *Drake Chamberlin*

 *Athens Electric LLC*

 *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810*

 *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526*

 *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
 ---



 On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5"
 nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut
 the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Thanks, Lou. I missed that 6" bottom spacing requirement in the manual.
That could explain a lot of the installation pictures I have seen.

On the flip side, we have seen some examples of installations in this
thread without this 6-inch spacing, presumably without any adverse effects.
Obviously, NEC requires that we follow the manufacturer's instructions, but
for practical purposes or non-NEC installations, I wonder if this bottom
spacing is necessary. Perhaps the manufacturer could provide a letter of
exception. I might have to reach out to them. The manual seems to indicate
the heat dissipation is "from bottom to top," so I'm not sure how critical
the intake air spacing really is. I wouldn't want to put anything less than
6 inches above, but perhaps below isn't as critical.

My situation is that I want to put a 12x12 gutter above some HomeGrid
stacks and the inverters over the gutter. Based on my calculations, if I
use more than 2 inches of space between the gutter and inverter, I will
exceed the working height limit for the breakers in the inverters.

Yes, I am aware of the depth difference between equipment and that will be
addressed to meet working space requirements. My technical problem is only
the NEC 240.24(A) height limit.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 6:41 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site
> visit! Back to Jason's initial question
>
> If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and
> bottom with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom.
>
> A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great for
> us.
>
> Aloha,
>
> Lou Russo
> (808) 345 6762
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Drake,
>> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up
>> as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single
>> phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV
>> line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard
>> to see, but for seperation, we attached  the pv circuits to the back of the
>> gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use
>> gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses
>> controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery
>> hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the
>> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the
>> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from
>> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage
>> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch
>> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC
>> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a
>> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new
>> diesels not to have that function.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on
>>> a 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in
>>> groups of 3.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Drake
>>>
>>>
>>> *Drake Chamberlin*
>>>
>>> *Athens Electric LLC*
>>>
>>> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810*
>>>
>>> *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526*
>>>
>>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
>>> ---
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5"
>>> nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut
>>> the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the
>>> gutter,  placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we
>>> have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture
>>> showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jason
>>> In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height
>>> is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x
>>> X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not
>>> want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through
>>> the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just
>>> create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe
>>> with 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Lou Russo via RE-wrenches]

Hello All,

Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site visit!
Back to Jason's initial question

If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and bottom
with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom.

A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great for
us.

Aloha,

Lou Russo
(808) 345 6762



On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Drake,
> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up
> as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single
> phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV
> line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard
> to see, but for seperation, we attached  the pv circuits to the back of the
> gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use
> gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses
> controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery
> hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the
> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the
> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from
> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage
> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch
> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC
> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a
> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new
> diesels not to have that function.
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on a
>> 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in
>> groups of 3.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Drake
>>
>>
>> *Drake Chamberlin*
>>
>> *Athens Electric LLC*
>>
>> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810*
>>
>> *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526*
>>
>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
>> ---
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" nipples
>> work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut the
>> bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the
>> gutter,  placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we
>> have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture
>> showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason
>> In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height
>> is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x
>> X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not
>> want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through
>> the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just
>> create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe
>> with easy access to the display
>> Fun times
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that
>> are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are
>> any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway
>> below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps
>> 2-in nipples if I have enough room.
>>
>> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please
>> let me know.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Jason
In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height is
one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x X
gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not
want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through
the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just
create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe
with easy access to the display
Fun times

On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that
> are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are
> any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway
> below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps
> 2-in nipples if I have enough room.
>
> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please
> let me know.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches]

Jason

The old Sol-Ark had the PV disconnect and the Wi-Fi adapter connection on the 
bottom and that needed about six or 8 inches of clearance. The current Sol-Ark 
has those items on the side of the unit so you don’t need such clearance on the 
bottom. I installed several Sol-Ark and I use the relatively close arrangement 
between the gutter and the inverter of two EMT male adapters and a just enough 
EMT to make them connect. 



Thank you,

Maverick


> On Aug 2, 2023, at 10:04 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that are 
> fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are any 
> negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway below and 
> the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps 2-in nipples 
> if I have enough room.
> 
> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please let 
> me know.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group 
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that
are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are
any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway
below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps
2-in nipples if I have enough room.

If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please let
me know.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Just so it is abundantly clear to all that wish to modify or cut open an
inverter, SMA will not do any advanced replacements of any inverters that
have been modified, Outback is not a problem as they are field serviceable,
SolArk is a all in one unit and any modification to the cabinet will
prevent you from getting an advance replacement and increasing down time
from days to weeks if not months so this may be an decision maker why not
to do, I have 1 to 5 solarks on gutters with no issues getting any cabling
into the unit.
Jerry

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 11:23 AM Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I've been using two gutters with multiple 12KW Sol-Arks Installs - one
> 4x4" that I mount immediately under the AC KOs using forward biased offset
> nipples (it's front face is just abouut 1/2" in front of front plane of
> Sol-Arks)  and then a 6x6" set back and down and reached with 4" nipples
> extending offset nipples so that I get an AC and DC gutter - not sure how
> others are dealing with need to separate AC and DC.
>
> For the PV  inputs on 12Kws I do two additional 1" KOs - one through the
> vertical mid-plate below the DC terminations and then one down through the
> bottom just to the rear of that plate.  That way using offsets I can reach
> the 6" DC gutter with both the Battery DC and the PV DC in one gutter.  I
> then use an LL to get the AC gutter back to the wall at one end.  Can send
> pics offlist if you are interested.
>
> I spoke to Sol-Ark a few times about the need to give us more room and
> better KOs - putting the DCs in one plane and the ACS in another - giving
> us 2" KOs for battery cables instead of forcing each cable through it's own
> 1" etc.  Unfortunately didn't get that message through before they had
> already designed the 15 KW.
>
> We have also just added KOs to the left side of the unit to bring in the
> PV inputs when that is more convenient.
>
> No better tool than our hydraulic KO punch!
>
> Hope that helps ~
>
> Jeff
>
> ~~~
> Jeff Clearwater
>
> linkedin 
> www.villagepowerdesign.com
> cell - 413-559-9763
> ~~~
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
> May 8, 2022 at 11:03 AM
> We cut out the bottom plate entirely with a die grinder/cut off wheel and
> then wrap the raw edge with vinyl "edge wrap" and set the inverters on top
> of 10 x 10 x whatever gutters. The layout and sizes of Sol-Arks knock-outs
> is screwy. Just need a bonding jumper between both enclosures. This is
> common practice in the industrial world when dealing with large VFDs and
> such.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
> Morningstar Electric
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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> Jay via RE-wrenches 
> May 8, 2022 at 5:57 AM
> Hi Chris,
>
> Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?
>
> Jay
>
>
>
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> Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
> May 7, 2022 at 6:16 PM
> Jason,
>
> I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My
> hesitation is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be a
> >24” stub conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a fun pipe
> to bend…and extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution.
>
> Is this your conclusion as well?
>
> --
> Chris Sparadeo
>
>
> C_802-369-4458
> H_802-728-3059
>
>
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> Change 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I think the idea here is that 690.9 allows the inverter output conductors
to be sized based on the maximum ampacity and an OCPD is actually not
required is the conductor ampacity is sufficient. So in an off-grid
scenario, the wires could be as small as #4. In a grid interconnected
situation where there is potential pass-through current exceeding the
inverter output current, the wire would need to be protected according to
the available current on the grid input terminals. If there is a generator,
the inverter output circuit would need to be protected based on the
generator rating. The fixed 200A rating of the inverter load disconnect is
the confusing part. It seems like it would be more functional if it were
replaceable with various ratings of main breaker. You need additional
circuit protection in most cases unless it's completely off-grid with no
generator input it seems.

Jason Szumlanski

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 8:44 PM Chris Sparadeo 
wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
> size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
> of the unit?
>
> -Chris
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 200A
>>> pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But then
>>> it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>>>
>>> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
>>> output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
>>> rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
>>> breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
>>> external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>>
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>> --
> Chris Sparadeo
>
>
> C_802-369-4458
> H_802-728-3059
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches
The new solark 15 has a 200 amp rated contactor this is so if you want to
have whole home pass through you can but if you only have an inverter then
use that as your starting point and if the genny is contributing then add
that is, you do not need 2/0 for a single 15 k off grid but you may grid
tied. this opens up other issues that are not part of this conversation
like multiple 15 and 3/0 grid tied remember KIS!

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:00 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 200A
> pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But then
> it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>
> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
> output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
> rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
> breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
> external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

I've been using two gutters with multiple 12KW Sol-Arks Installs - one 
4x4" that I mount immediately under the AC KOs using forward biased 
offset nipples (it's front face is just abouut 1/2" in front of front 
plane of Sol-Arks)  and then a 6x6" set back and down and reached with 
4" nipples extending offset nipples so that I get an AC and DC gutter - 
not sure how others are dealing with need to separate AC and DC.


For the PV  inputs on 12Kws I do two additional 1" KOs - one through the 
vertical mid-plate below the DC terminations and then one down through 
the bottom just to the rear of that plate.  That way using offsets I can 
reach the 6" DC gutter with both the Battery DC and the PV DC in one 
gutter.  I then use an LL to get the AC gutter back to the wall at one 
end.  Can send pics offlist if you are interested.


I spoke to Sol-Ark a few times about the need to give us more room and 
better KOs - putting the DCs in one plane and the ACS in another - 
giving us 2" KOs for battery cables instead of forcing each cable 
through it's own 1" etc.  Unfortunately didn't get that message through 
before they had already designed the 15 KW.


We have also just added KOs to the left side of the unit to bring in the 
PV inputs when that is more convenient.


No better tool than our hydraulic KO punch!

Hope that helps ~

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater

linkedin 
www.villagepowerdesign.com 
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~





Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 


May 8, 2022 at 11:03 AM
We cut out the bottom plate entirely with a die grinder/cut off wheel 
and then wrap the raw edge with vinyl "edge wrap" and set the 
inverters on top of 10 x 10 x whatever gutters. The layout and sizes 
of Sol-Arks knock-outs is screwy. Just need a bonding jumper between 
both enclosures. This is common practice in the industrial world when 
dealing with large VFDs and such.





--

Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com 




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Jay via RE-wrenches 
May 8, 2022 at 5:57 AM
Hi Chris,

Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?

Jay



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Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
May 7, 2022 at 6:16 PM
Jason,

I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My 
hesitation is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be 
a >24” stub conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a 
fun pipe to bend…and extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution.


Is this your conclusion as well?

--
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
H_802-728-3059


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Change 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Be carefull about modifying inverters or any cabinets with long term
warranties because modifying may result in sending your unit for repair and
not getting exchange units in the event of a warranty issue. Outback is
served in parts so that may not be an issue, solark is too soon to tell.
Fronius refused to warranty inverters because they say the shell was
modified.
But hey thats my luck

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 11:04 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> We cut out the bottom plate entirely with a die grinder/cut off wheel and
> then wrap the raw edge with vinyl "edge wrap" and set the inverters on top
> of 10 x 10 x whatever gutters. The layout and sizes of Sol-Arks knock-outs
> is screwy. Just need a bonding jumper between both enclosures. This is
> common practice in the industrial world when dealing with large VFDs and
> such.
>
>
> On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 6:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> On May 7, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Jason,
>>
>> I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My
>> hesitation is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be a
>> >24” stub conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a fun pipe
>> to bend…and extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution.
>>
>> Is this your conclusion as well?
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:38 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes and no, I think this is a tap, "a tap shall be permitted anywhere
>>> along a feeder"  ' as long as it is less than a 10-foot rule or 25-foot
>>> rule ending in a listed OCPD with a rating sufficient to handle the maximum
>>> overcurrent'.  Service equipment residential is rated for fault currents of
>>> up to 10,000 amps withstand.Refer to 240.4.B and 240.21 (B) (1 & 2)
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:39 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD.

 I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV,
 you could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized
 accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an
 appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a
 real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the
 conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.

 Jason


 On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10
> feet and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with
> multiple sources see 705
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
>> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
>> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
>> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
>>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For 
>>> example,
>>> load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  
>>> Obviously
>>> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>>>
>>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in
>>> an off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need 
>>> to
>>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a 
>>> fused
>>> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, 
>>> the
>>> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you
 can put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent 
 device.
 REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source. 
  The
 DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on

 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

We cut out the bottom plate entirely with a die grinder/cut off wheel and
then wrap the raw edge with vinyl "edge wrap" and set the inverters on top
of 10 x 10 x whatever gutters. The layout and sizes of Sol-Arks knock-outs
is screwy. Just need a bonding jumper between both enclosures. This is
common practice in the industrial world when dealing with large VFDs and
such.


On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 6:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?
>
> Jay
>
> On May 7, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Jason,
>
> I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My
> hesitation is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be a
> >24” stub conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a fun pipe
> to bend…and extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution.
>
> Is this your conclusion as well?
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:38 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes and no, I think this is a tap, "a tap shall be permitted anywhere
>> along a feeder"  ' as long as it is less than a 10-foot rule or 25-foot
>> rule ending in a listed OCPD with a rating sufficient to handle the maximum
>> overcurrent'.  Service equipment residential is rated for fault currents of
>> up to 10,000 amps withstand.Refer to 240.4.B and 240.21 (B) (1 & 2)
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:39 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD.
>>>
>>> I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV,
>>> you could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized
>>> accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an
>>> appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a
>>> real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the
>>> conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet
 and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with
 multiple sources see 705

 On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example,
>> load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
>> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>>
>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in
>> an off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need 
>> to
>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
>> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, 
>> the
>> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can
>>> put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.
>>> REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  
>>> The
>>> DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 You must meet all expected source output potentials within the
 design and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and
 connected wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source 
 then
 you are good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 
 2/0 as
 it will never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max 
 output
 can be plus your margin.

 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Chris,

Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?

Jay

> On May 7, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jason,
> 
> I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My hesitation 
> is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be a >24” stub 
> conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a fun pipe to bend…and 
> extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution. 
> 
> Is this your conclusion as well? 
> 
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:38 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Yes and no, I think this is a tap, "a tap shall be permitted anywhere along 
>> a feeder"  ' as long as it is less than a 10-foot rule or 25-foot rule 
>> ending in a listed OCPD with a rating sufficient to handle the maximum 
>> overcurrent'.  Service equipment residential is rated for fault currents of 
>> up to 10,000 amps withstand.Refer to 240.4.B and 240.21 (B) (1 & 2) 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:39 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD. 
>>> 
>>> I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV, you 
>>> could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized 
>>> accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an 
>>> appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a 
>>> real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the 
>>> conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.
>>> 
>>> Jason 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
  wrote:
 The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet 
 and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with 
 multiple sources see 705
 
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a 
> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros 
> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A 
> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario. 
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Jason,
>> 
>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could 
>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For 
>> example, load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  
>> Obviously depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill. 
>> 
>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an 
>> off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to 
>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a 
>> fused disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K 
>> unit, the integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time. 
>> 
>> -Chris 
>> 
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can 
>>> put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  
>>> REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  
>>> The DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>> 
 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
  wrote:
 You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design 
 and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected 
 wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you 
 are good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as 
 it will never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max 
 output can be plus your margin.
 
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> Hi Jason,
> 
> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do 
> you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or 
> the OCPD of the unit? 
> 
> -Chris 
> 
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC 
>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski 
>>>  wrote:
>>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 
>>> 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

Jason,

I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My
hesitation is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be a
>24” stub conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a fun pipe
to bend…and extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution.

Is this your conclusion as well?

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:38 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Yes and no, I think this is a tap, "a tap shall be permitted anywhere
> along a feeder"  ' as long as it is less than a 10-foot rule or 25-foot
> rule ending in a listed OCPD with a rating sufficient to handle the maximum
> overcurrent'.  Service equipment residential is rated for fault currents of
> up to 10,000 amps withstand.Refer to 240.4.B and 240.21 (B) (1 & 2)
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:39 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD.
>>
>> I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV, you
>> could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized
>> accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an
>> appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a
>> real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the
>> conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet
>>> and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with
>>> multiple sources see 705
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
 separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
 and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
 services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.

 Jason




 On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example,
> load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>
> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in
> an off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, 
> the
> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>
> -Chris
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can
>> put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.
>> REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  
>> The
>> DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the
>>> design and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and
>>> connected wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source 
>>> then
>>> you are good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 
>>> as
>>> it will never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max 
>>> output
>>> can be plus your margin.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Jason,

 You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do
 you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or 
 the
 OCPD of the unit?

 -Chris

 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not following the wiring 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Yes and no, I think this is a tap, "a tap shall be permitted anywhere along
a feeder"  ' as long as it is less than a 10-foot rule or 25-foot rule
ending in a listed OCPD with a rating sufficient to handle the maximum
overcurrent'.  Service equipment residential is rated for fault currents of
up to 10,000 amps withstand.Refer to 240.4.B and 240.21 (B) (1 & 2)

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:39 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD.
>
> I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV, you
> could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized
> accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an
> appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a
> real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the
> conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet
>> and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with
>> multiple sources see 705
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
>>> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
>>> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
>>> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Jason,

 Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
 allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example,
 load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
 depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.

 What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an
 off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
 integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
 disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, the
 integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.

 -Chris

 On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can
> put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.
> REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  
> The
> DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design
>> and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected
>> wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you are
>> good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it 
>> will
>> never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be
>> plus your margin.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason,
>>>
>>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do
>>> you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or 
>>> the
>>> OCPD of the unit?
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
 coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.






 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
 ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It
> has 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load 
> disconnect.
> But then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 
> 2/0.
>
> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max
> continuous output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could 
> be
> used with 80A rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection
> implemented if the 200A breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a 
> short

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

But this isn't a tap. It's a feeder conductor connected to an OCPD.

I guess if you don't have a grid in or generator in or AC Coupled PV, you
could just call it an inverter output circuit and it could be sized
accordingly. But it would still need to be protected at it's source by an
appropriately rated OCPD. Don't get me wrong... I don't think there is a
real safety issue here, but I also don't see how the NEC allows the
conductor to be sized for anything less than 200A.

Jason


On Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 11:29 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet
> and protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with
> multiple sources see 705
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
>> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
>> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
>> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
>>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example,
>>> load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
>>> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>>>
>>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an
>>> off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
>>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
>>> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, the
>>> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can
 put any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.
 REmember in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  The
 DC best example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on

 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design
> and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected
> wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you are
> good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will
> never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be
> plus your margin.
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do
>> you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the
>> OCPD of the unit?
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
 I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. 
 But
 then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.

 In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max
 continuous output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be
 used with 80A rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection
 implemented if the 200A breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a 
 short
 piece of 2/0 to an external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?

 Jason Szumlanski





 ___
>>>
>>
>>> ___
>>
>
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

The tap rule says you can reduce to 10% of the nominal size for 10 feet and
protect at the downstream OCPD or 25% for 25 feet for solar with multiple
sources see 705

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
> separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
> and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
> services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could
>> allow for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example,
>> load output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
>> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>>
>> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an
>> off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
>> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
>> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, the
>> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can put
>>> any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  REmember
>>> in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  The DC best
>>> example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design
 and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected
 wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you are
 good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will
 never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be
 plus your margin.

 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do
> you size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the
> OCPD of the unit?
>
> -Chris
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
>>> 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. 
>>> But
>>> then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>>>
>>> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max
>>> continuous output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be
>>> used with 80A rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection
>>> implemented if the 200A breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a 
>>> short
>>> piece of 2/0 to an external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>
>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

That's what I'm thinking. You would need to use a 200A conductor to a
separate load out OCPD before downsizing the wire. I guess there are pros
and cons, but it seems this is geared toward whole house backup for 200A
services. I'm eager to get an opportunity to use it in that scenario.

Jason




On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 10:06 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could allow
> for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example, load
> output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
> depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.
>
> What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an
> off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
> integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
> disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, the
> integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.
>
> -Chris
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can put
>> any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  REmember
>> in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  The DC best
>> example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design
>>> and operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected
>>> wiring is rated for the max output of the protected source then you are
>>> good. A 200 ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will
>>> never meet that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be
>>> plus your margin.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Jason,

 You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
 size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
 of the unit?

 -Chris

 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
>> 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But
>> then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>>
>> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max
>> continuous output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be
>> used with 80A rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection
>> implemented if the 200A breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short
>> piece of 2/0 to an external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>

>
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

Jason,

Any additional OCPD downstream of the 200A load output breaker could allow
for a smaller wire size to be used at these terminals. For example, load
output conductors run to a 100A main breaker panel board.  Obviously
depending on circumstances, a #4 copper could fit the bill.

What I’m not extremely  excited about with the new design is that in an
off-grid scenario with a generator and smart load, we would now need to
integrate an AC disconnect for generator input (grid)  and either a fused
disconnect or loads panel for any smart load output. With the 12K unit, the
integrated breakers help cut down on BOS and install time.

-Chris

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 5:35 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can put
> any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  REmember
> in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  The DC best
> example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design and
>> operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected wiring is
>> rated for the max output of the protected source then you are good. A 200
>> ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will never meet
>> that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be plus your
>> margin.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason,
>>>
>>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
>>> size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
>>> of the unit?
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
 coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.






 On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
 ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
> 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But
> then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>
> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max
> continuous output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be
> used with 80A rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection
> implemented if the 200A breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short
> piece of 2/0 to an external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
 List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

 Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

 List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello, The overcurrent device is to protect the conductors.  you can put
any size wire, but you must protect with the overcurrent device.  REmember
in solar equipment; you may have more than one supply source.  The DC best
example is solar modules connected in parallel,  on

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design and
> operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected wiring is
> rated for the max output of the protected source then you are good. A 200
> ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will never meet
> that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be plus your
> margin.
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
>> size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
>> of the unit?
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
 I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But
 then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.

 In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
 output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
 rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
 breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
 external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?

 Jason Szumlanski





 ___
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>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

That's a different scenario, as a 100A genny would have a 100A OCPD. I
understand that the inverter output rating is limited, but what section of
code allows a 200A breaker to protect a #4 wire?







On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 9:26 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design and
> operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected wiring is
> rated for the max output of the protected source then you are good. A 200
> ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will never meet
> that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be plus your
> margin.
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
>> size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
>> of the unit?
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
 I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has
 200A pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But
 then it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.

 In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
 output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
 rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
 breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
 external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?

 Jason Szumlanski





 ___
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>>> --
>> Chris Sparadeo
>>
>>
>> C_802-369-4458
>> H_802-728-3059
>> ___
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>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

You must meet all expected source output potentials within the design and
operating limits, as long as the distribution panel and connected wiring is
rated for the max output of the protected source then you are good. A 200
ATS connected to a 10 kW genny does not require 2/0 as it will never meet
that rating. Just remember its whatever the max output can be plus your
margin.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022, 5:44 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
> size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
> of the unit?
>
> -Chris
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC
>> coupled capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 200A
>>> pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But then
>>> it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>>>
>>> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
>>> output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
>>> rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
>>> breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
>>> external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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>> --
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>
>
> C_802-369-4458
> H_802-728-3059
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jason,

You bring up a valid point….in an off-grid scenario with the 15k do you
size the conductors to the continuous capacity, surge capacity or the OCPD
of the unit?

-Chris

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC coupled
> capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 200A
>> pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But then
>> it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>>
>> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
>> output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
>> rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
>> breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
>> external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

P.S. ICYMI, this inverter has a massive combined AC coupled and DC coupled
capacity. They allow 15kWdc plus 19.2kWac!!! Impressive.






On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 200A
> pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But then
> it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.
>
> In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
> output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
> rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
> breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
> external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I'm not following the wiring diagrams for this new inverter. It has 200A
pass-through capability with an integrated 200A load disconnect. But then
it says the wire gauge for the load out wiring can be #4 to 2/0.

In an off-grid scenario where there is no generator, the max continuous
output is 62.5A, so I assume 80A circuit protection could be used with 80A
rated wire (#4), but how is that circuit protection implemented if the 200A
breaker is integrated? Do you have to run a short piece of 2/0 to an
external 80A rated OCPD and then step down to #4?

Jason Szumlanski
___
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