RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Matthew Tevenan]

 Reply to:   RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination
Michael,

I'm really not sure why this was done. I'm assuming it was decided to wait until Apple 
lifted the 2GB limit before working around it in the software. Now that Apple has 
lifted the limit, that's our cue to change Retrospect's capabilities...

I'll be sure to flag this suggestion, though.

Regards,

Matthew Tevenan
Technical Support Specialist
Dantz Development Corporation
925.253.3050 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Michael Gaines wrote:
>At 8:34 AM -0800 12/17/1999, Matthew Tevenan wrote:
>>Reply to: RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination Wade,
>>
>>Up until Mac OS 9, the maximum file size was 2 GB. Now that Apple >>has lifted that 
>limit, we need to change Retrospect to reflect that >>new capability. We'll probably 
>be doing this in our next release.
>>
>
>I understand that the physical file can't exceed 2GB (at least prior >to OS9), but I 
>don't understand why this is a barrier to doing a file >backup set that exceeds 2GB 
>in total. Other programs are able create >segmented files when they reach a given 
>size. If I'm reading the >message that Eric posted to the list a few months back (see 
>below) >correctly, even your own program understands how to do segmentation >when 
>dealing with removable media. So my question is, why can't it do >segmentation (via 
>containers or whatever) when dealing with a file >backup set on a fixed drive that 
>exceeds the 2GB mark?
>
>Barring some technical reason, maybe that option can be added to the >next update 
>(ideally where the user can set the segmentation size)? >This has benefit of working 
>even for those of us that choose not to >upgrade to OS9. It also provides a mechanism 
>for dealing with the >issue when we start to reach OS9's file size limits. Although 
>at 2TB >hopefully we wont reach that point for a year or two. :)
>
>Thanks
>
>
>At 3:15 PM -0700 8/19/1999, Eric Ullman wrote:
>>
>>With Retrospect 4.1, we included support for filling removable >>cartridges that 
>hold more than 2GB, by writing multiple containers >>as required, up to the media's 
>max storage capacity. However, we >>can't do this with file StorageSets (on a second 
>hard drive, for >>example); one must use a duplicate (OS format, no compression) 
>>>operation to fill a 9GB hard disk.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Eric
>
>
>Michael Gaines snail mail: Learning Technology 
>Center
>Computer Systems Administrator Box 45, GPC
>   
>Nashville, TN 37203
>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   (615) 322-8070




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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Erik Ableson]

Hmmm - here's an alternate possibility:

1.  Set up a folder for each client volume to be backed up
2.  Set each folder as a volume using the subvolume option in Retrospect
3.  Create a duplicate script for each of these.  Using the duplicate
function with replace entire HD, you will get a mirror of each volume on
the server - retrospect is smart enough to do an incremental duplicate
so these should run pretty quickly
4.  Then backup the server locally to a handy tape device.

This will require more active management and tracking as you won't be able
to use Retrospect's advanced search features by client name since it will
all be one data source, but if you organize your server structure carefully,
you should be OK.  You also won't be able to use the smarts of the backup
server scripts and will be stuck with scheduled ones (not critical for a
smaller backup group tho').

Cheers,

Erik Ableson

NB - this only works if you have a clear controlled client group that you
know exactly the available capacity and can ensure that you have sufficient
space on the server.

Ancillary issues are that if you have a mix of Windows and Mac clients there
are some naming issues that may arise since the Mac can't handle names over
32 characters, and if you decide to try this from a Windows box, you'll need
to ensure that you have things set up to properly handle MacOS resource
forks. Sigh - nothing's ever as simple as it first looks.

> From: Wade Masshardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:47:23 -0600
> To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination
> 
>> Reply to:   RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination
>> Wade,
>> 
>> Up until Mac OS 9, the maximum file size was 2 GB. Now that Apple has
>> lifted that limit, we need to change Retrospect to reflect that new
>> capability. We'll probably be doing this in our next release.
> 
> That will be great.  Any idea when this release might be forthcoming?
> 
> In the meantime, the method described, namely using a bunch of file
> backup sets (11 in my case) as the destination for a backup should
> work, right?  My main concern (I haven't actually tried it yet,
> tonight is the first night) is that Retrospect will automatically
> move on to the next file backup set when the first one is full and so
> one (I have about 14 gigs worth of data that gets backed up when I do
> a recycle backup.)  If this is what happens, then everything should
> be peachy.  If not, I'll have to find an alternative, like making 11
> 2GB Diskcopy images and using those as the target.



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RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Michael Gaines]

At 8:34 AM -0800 12/17/1999, Matthew Tevenan wrote:
>Reply to: RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination Wade,
>
>Up until Mac OS 9, the maximum file size was 2 GB. Now that Apple 
>has lifted that limit, we need to change Retrospect to reflect that 
>new capability. We'll probably be doing this in our next release.
>

I understand that the physical file can't exceed 2GB (at least prior 
to OS9), but I don't understand why this is a barrier to doing a file 
backup set that exceeds 2GB in total. Other programs are able create 
segmented files when they reach a given size. If I'm reading the 
message that Eric posted to the list a few months back (see below) 
correctly, even your own program understands how to do segmentation 
when dealing with removable media. So my question is, why can't it do 
segmentation (via containers or whatever) when dealing with a file 
backup set on a fixed drive that exceeds the 2GB mark?

Barring some technical reason, maybe that option can be added to the 
next update (ideally where the user can set the segmentation size)? 
This has benefit of working even for those of us that choose not to 
upgrade to OS9. It also provides a mechanism for dealing with the 
issue when we start to reach OS9's file size limits. Although at 2TB 
hopefully we wont reach that point for a year or two. :)

Thanks


At 3:15 PM -0700 8/19/1999, Eric Ullman wrote:
>
>With Retrospect 4.1, we included support for filling removable 
>cartridges that hold more than 2GB, by writing multiple containers 
>as required, up to the media's max storage capacity. However, we 
>can't do this with file StorageSets (on a second hard drive, for 
>example); one must use a duplicate (OS format, no compression) 
>operation to fill a 9GB hard disk.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Eric


Michael Gaines  snail mail: Learning Technology 
Center
Computer Systems Administrator  Box 45, GPC

Nashville, TN 37203
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED](615) 322-8070


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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Luke Jaeger]

no no, this could work. If you could get Retro to treat a bunch of disk
images as if they were 2G removables, it would stripe the backup data
across as many of them as it needed. The backup would not be limited to
2G. The disk images would be like multiple tapes (zips, cdr's, etc) in a
storage set. Backup set. Whatever it's called now.

This is probably easier than my original idea of separate 2G partitions.

Wade Masshardt wrote:
> 
> >RE: You can use resedit to make retrospect recognize other media. I
> >back up to disk images all the time.  Ask tech support for the fix
> >or if you can't get it I have it archived away somewhere.
> >
> >Tom
> 
> In this case it doesn't gain me anything, really, since the disk
> images have the same 2GB size limitation.  If DiskCopy is able to
> create larger images in the future, I'll hunt up the fix, so thanks
> for the info.
> 
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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Wade Masshardt]

>RE: You can use resedit to make retrospect recognize other media. I 
>back up to disk images all the time.  Ask tech support for the fix 
>or if you can't get it I have it archived away somewhere.
>
>Tom

In this case it doesn't gain me anything, really, since the disk 
images have the same 2GB size limitation.  If DiskCopy is able to 
create larger images in the future, I'll hunt up the fix, so thanks 
for the info.

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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Thomas Myers]

RE: You can use resedit to make retrospect recognize other media. I back up to disk 
images all the time.  Ask tech support for the fix or if you can't get it I have it 
archived away somewhere.

Tom

>
>Retrospect doesn't seem to want to recognize the disk as a removable media, which it 
>isn't.  I also tried creating a bunch of DiskCopy disk images, but Retrospect ignores 
>those as well.  I decided to create a whole bunch of backup file sets.  Tedious, but 
>it works. 

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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Wade Masshardt]

>If you back up to a "Macintosh Disk" rather than a "Macintosh File",
>does the 2 GB limit still apply? (This prevents you using the drive for
>anything else however)
>
>If not, you could partition your big HD down into 2 GB chunks. Then
>Retrospect should parcel the "Retrospect Data" file among them as
>needed, right?

Retrospect doesn't seem to want to recognize the disk as a removable 
media, which it isn't.  I also tried creating a bunch of DiskCopy 
disk images, but Retrospect ignores those as well.  I decided to 
create a whole bunch of backup file sets.  Tedious, but it works.

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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Matthew Tevenan]

 Reply to:   Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination
Luke,

You're right, but not all hard drives are recognized as removables by the
OS. Certain formatting software (I know LaCie's "SilverLining" is one)
formats hard drives with the removable bit on so they appear to Retrospect
as removable disks. 

As you said, this means the entire drive would be recognized as a
removable, and though Retrospect would take advantage of the entire hard drive's
capacity (the 2 GB file size has been worked around with removables in
Retrospect 4.1 and later by creating multiple files), you would not be able
to use the drive for other purposes.

I'll caution that this is NOT a recommended way to go, especially if
you've formatted other hard drives as removables. It's all too easy to tell
Retrospect to format the wrong hard drive during a backup. 

Regards,

Matthew Tevenan
Technical Support Specialist
Dantz Development Corporation
925.253.3050 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Luke Jaeger wrote:
>If you back up to a "Macintosh Disk" rather than a "Macintosh File",
>does the 2 GB limit still apply? (This prevents you using the drive for
>anything else however)
>
>If not, you could partition your big HD down into 2 GB chunks. Then
>Retrospect should parcel the "Retrospect Data" file among them as
>needed, right?
>-- 
>
>
>top of the world,
>
>Luke Jaeger, Technology Coordinator
>Disney Magazine Publishing
>Northampton, Massachusetts
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Any opinions expressed in this message are my own and may not represent
>the opinions of Disney Publishing, etc etc etc.
>




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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Luke Jaeger]

If you back up to a "Macintosh Disk" rather than a "Macintosh File",
does the 2 GB limit still apply? (This prevents you using the drive for
anything else however)

If not, you could partition your big HD down into 2 GB chunks. Then
Retrospect should parcel the "Retrospect Data" file among them as
needed, right?
-- 


top of the world,

Luke Jaeger, Technology Coordinator
Disney Magazine Publishing
Northampton, Massachusetts
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Any opinions expressed in this message are my own and may not represent
the opinions of Disney Publishing, etc etc etc.

*


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RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Matthew Tevenan]

 Reply to:   RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination
Wade,

Unfortunately I'm not sure of when the next release is expected. In
response to your other question, Retrospect will not automatically continue on
to another file backup set after it fills one. 

The only workaround for now is to back up to *multiple* file backup sets
on the same hard drive. You will have to determine which volumes or
amounts of data can fit into the various file backup sets you create. 

For example, if you were backing up 3 volumes to a file backup set, you
can now back up volume 1 to File Backup Set A, volume 2 to File Backup Set
B, and volume 3 to File Backup Set C. 

If it's not so clear cut, you will have to determine groups of folder
subvolumes or use our selectors to back up certain files and apportion
amounts of data to each file backup set.

Retrospect for Windows' file backup sets are limited only to the maximum
file size of the file system the file is saved in. 

Regards,

Matthew Tevenan
Technical Support Specialist
Dantz Development Corporation
925.253.3050 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Wade Masshardt wrote:
>>      Reply to:   RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination
>>Wade,
>>
>>Up until Mac OS 9, the maximum file size was 2 GB. Now that Apple has
>>lifted that limit, we need to change Retrospect to reflect that new
>>capability. We'll probably be doing this in our next release.
>
>That will be great.  Any idea when this release might be forthcoming?
>
>In the meantime, the method described, namely using a bunch of file 
>backup sets (11 in my case) as the destination for a backup should 
>work, right?  My main concern (I haven't actually tried it yet, 
>tonight is the first night) is that Retrospect will automatically 
>move on to the next file backup set when the first one is full and so 
>one (I have about 14 gigs worth of data that gets backed up when I do 
>a recycle backup.)  If this is what happens, then everything should 
>be peachy.  If not, I'll have to find an alternative, like making 11 
>2GB Diskcopy images and using those as the target.
>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Matthew Tevenan
>>Technical Support Specialist
>>Dantz Development Corporation
>>925.253.3050
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>Wade Masshardt wrote:
>>>In order to speed up the backup during the week (it is taking 12-14
>>>hours to back our site up to our Travan 5 drive), I hit upon the idea
>>>of buying a Promax Ultra ATA DMA/33 PCI card and a 25 gig IBM
>>>deskstar drive (total cost about $475 including delivery) and using
>>>that as the backup destination during the week.  After I get this all
>>>set up, I find out that Retrospect's file backup set has a limit of 2
>>>GB, which seems a little restrictive to me.  I need about 14-20 gigs
>>>worth, so is there any way, other than making a bunch of 2 GB file
>>>backup sets and adding them all as destinations, to use the whole
>>>disk as a backup destination?
>>>
>>>If anyone from Retrospect is reading this, is it possible to up the
>>>file backup set limit to, e.g., 2 TB, now that the Mac filesystem
>>  >supports files that large?
>-- 
>
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 |
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 |
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RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Wade Masshardt]

>  Reply to:   RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination
>Wade,
>
>Up until Mac OS 9, the maximum file size was 2 GB. Now that Apple has
>lifted that limit, we need to change Retrospect to reflect that new
>capability. We'll probably be doing this in our next release.

That will be great.  Any idea when this release might be forthcoming?

In the meantime, the method described, namely using a bunch of file 
backup sets (11 in my case) as the destination for a backup should 
work, right?  My main concern (I haven't actually tried it yet, 
tonight is the first night) is that Retrospect will automatically 
move on to the next file backup set when the first one is full and so 
one (I have about 14 gigs worth of data that gets backed up when I do 
a recycle backup.)  If this is what happens, then everything should 
be peachy.  If not, I'll have to find an alternative, like making 11 
2GB Diskcopy images and using those as the target.

>Regards,
>
>Matthew Tevenan
>Technical Support Specialist
>Dantz Development Corporation
>925.253.3050
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Wade Masshardt wrote:
>>In order to speed up the backup during the week (it is taking 12-14
>>hours to back our site up to our Travan 5 drive), I hit upon the idea
>>of buying a Promax Ultra ATA DMA/33 PCI card and a 25 gig IBM
>>deskstar drive (total cost about $475 including delivery) and using
>>that as the backup destination during the week.  After I get this all
>>set up, I find out that Retrospect's file backup set has a limit of 2
>>GB, which seems a little restrictive to me.  I need about 14-20 gigs
>>worth, so is there any way, other than making a bunch of 2 GB file
>>backup sets and adding them all as destinations, to use the whole
>>disk as a backup destination?
>>
>>If anyone from Retrospect is reading this, is it possible to up the
>>file backup set limit to, e.g., 2 TB, now that the Mac filesystem
>  >supports files that large?
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Re: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Andrew Cook]

I do this as well, but with retrospect under NT.  Big drives (I use 2 37GB
slow IDE's) as you noted are cheap and faster than tape.  I backup
each client to its own file.  Using NTFS on the drives, my largest backup sets
are approaching 4GB.  I think the largest file NTFS supports with my cluster
size is 64GB according to the NT docs.  I don't know if retrospect will be
able to handle files this large though. Pretty soon the files will try to
exceed 4GB, so I guess I'll find out one way or another...  Anybody know
what the limits in retrospect are for both platforms?


-Andy



>In order to speed up the backup during the week (it is taking 12-14 
>hours to back our site up to our Travan 5 drive), I hit upon the 
>idea of buying a Promax Ultra ATA DMA/33 PCI card and a 25 gig IBM 
>deskstar drive (total cost about $475 including delivery) and using 
>that as the backup destination during the week.  After I get this 
>all set up, I find out that Retrospect's file backup set has a limit 
>of 2 GB, which seems a little restrictive to me.  I need about 14-20 
>gigs worth, so is there any way, other than making a bunch of 2 GB 
>file backup sets and adding them all as destinations, to use the 
>whole disk as a backup destination?
>
>If anyone from Retrospect is reading this, is it possible to up the 
>file backup set limit to, e.g., 2 TB, now that the Mac filesystem 
>supports files that large?
>--
>
>--
>+--+--+
>|Wade Masshardt| The Wisconsin Alumni Association |
>|   Tech Support Coordinator   | 1-888-WIS-ALUM  (1-888-947-2586) |
>| 608-265-8766 ||
>+--+--+
>|    |
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RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination

[Matthew Tevenan]

 Reply to:   RE: using large hard disk as backup desitination
Wade,

Up until Mac OS 9, the maximum file size was 2 GB. Now that Apple has
lifted that limit, we need to change Retrospect to reflect that new
capability. We'll probably be doing this in our next release. 

Regards,

Matthew Tevenan
Technical Support Specialist
Dantz Development Corporation
925.253.3050 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Wade Masshardt wrote:
>In order to speed up the backup during the week (it is taking 12-14 
>hours to back our site up to our Travan 5 drive), I hit upon the idea 
>of buying a Promax Ultra ATA DMA/33 PCI card and a 25 gig IBM 
>deskstar drive (total cost about $475 including delivery) and using 
>that as the backup destination during the week.  After I get this all 
>set up, I find out that Retrospect's file backup set has a limit of 2 
>GB, which seems a little restrictive to me.  I need about 14-20 gigs 
>worth, so is there any way, other than making a bunch of 2 GB file 
>backup sets and adding them all as destinations, to use the whole 
>disk as a backup destination?
>
>If anyone from Retrospect is reading this, is it possible to up the 
>file backup set limit to, e.g., 2 TB, now that the Mac filesystem 
>supports files that large?
>-- 
>
>--
>+--+-
-+
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 |
>|   Tech Support Coordinator   | 1-888-WIS-ALUM  (1-888-947-2586)   
 |
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 |
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 |
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