RE: FA not sprinkler question

[Charles Thurston via Sprinklerforum]

I have never seen a way to sync any AC device since 79 when I got into the 
alarm business. Have seen it tried a couple of times but nothing "I" know of 
made it to market.



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
Formaly Myrtle Beach Fire Safety Group

Please send plans to plan...@pyebarkerfire.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of David Williams via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 9:40 AM
> To: John Drucker ;
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: David Williams ; BRUCE VERHEI
> 
> Subject: Re: FA not sprinkler question
> 
> [EXTERNAL]
> 
> Sorry about not including more information…I was trying to be a bit coy about
> the situation.
> 
> These are petroleum pipeline facilities, designed originally in 2014 and just
> now being completed. The Electrical buildings were prefab and certified
> under IBC 2012 as U type buildings. The sync in these is probably okay as
> internally the buildings have a single strobe per room. The pump house
> buildings are 70x40, one large hazardous Class I Div II area space, gas alarms
> are for flammable gases and have separate, but co-located strobes. These
> facilities have been classified as H buildings in other states, but generally 
> as U
> in the current location.
> 
> For sure the owner wants fire detection and alarm, but generally these
> facilities are unoccupied 24/7 unless there is maintenance to be done. The
> owners spec allows the gas and fire detection and alarm systems to be run
> through the facility PLC and not a fire alarm panel (this is a recent change 
> in
> how they designed things). So now there is a issue with wiring integrity and
> the strobe says can, plus do you worry about syncing the gas strobes too.
> (The strobes are needed as the areas are way too loud to be in without
> hearing protection). UPS is provided to the PLC and 120V circuits.
> 
> Figuring out how to help the owner sync the hazardous location 120v strobes
> in my big issue at this point. Any help with some thought now that I’ve
> actually provided perhaps enough information.
> 
> All
> 
> David Toshio Williams, PE*, FPE – Lead MEP/FP Engineer (*Registered in MN,
> WI, MI, IA, IL, IN, ND, VT)
> 21 West Superior Street, Suite 500, Duluth, MN 55802 Direct 218.279.2436 |
> Cell 218.310.2446 LHBcorp.com LHB, Inc. | PERFORMANCE DRIVEN DESIGN.
> 
> ...sent from the cloud through the tubes!
> 
> From: John Drucker 
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 5:33:11 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> 
> Cc: BRUCE VERHEI ; David Williams
> 
> Subject: Re: FA not sprinkler question
> 
> David,
> 
> If your an IBC/IFC state then either chapter 4 or chapter 9, will call out a 
> fire
> alarm system requirement.
> 
> As for the strobe, sync is only required where more than two strobes are in
> the field of view from inside the building per NFPA-72.
> 
> As for the sync paradigm here’s an interesting discussion
> 
> https://forums.thefirepanel.com/t/the-mechanics-of-smartsync/1163/3
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> John Drucker
> AHJ Fire and Electrical
> New Jersey USA
> 
> John Drucker
> 
> From: Sprinklerforum  on
> behalf of BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum
> 
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 9:44:07 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> 
> Cc: BRUCE VERHEI ; David Williams
> 
> Subject: Re: FA not sprinkler question
> 
> Gas detection? To me that implies some special former tenant. Or normal CO
> detection? Are there natural gas fired appliances in the space?
> 
> Sync. There are more than one options, somewhat dependent on age of
> system.
> 
> By servicing, do you mean space is vacant?
> 
> Unless the jurisdiction is huge the fire plan reviewer can probably answer
> your questions about why system is in the particular building without any file
> searching. No sizes, building configuration, occupancy class or so on is
> provided so I wouldn’t expect even a guess on this forum.  In addition fire
> alarm is one area of the fire codes that quite a few cities customize. Was
> system installed as part of an alternative methods and materials trade off?
> Lastly if there was some ability to lessen part of the fire protection system 
> in
> the end only the owner could request it. If next week a new tenant requires
> that same feature no plans reviewer is going to count on a spk contractor
> getting out their checkbook.
> 
> Best.
> 
> Bruce Verhei
> 
> 
&

RE: Overhead / Friction Loss

[Charles Thurston via Sprinklerforum]

I would love to have a copy also sent to 
thurst...@pyebarkerfore.com<mailto:thurst...@pyebarkerfore.com>

Thank You



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
Formaly Myrtle Beach Fire Safety Group

Please send plans to plan...@pyebarkerfire.com
[pye]<http://www.agdata.net/>

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Paul Cetani via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 10:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; jaycs7...@gmail.com
Cc: Paul Cetani 
Subject: RE: Overhead / Friction Loss

I would love a copy of the excel sheet as well if your willing to share. Thanks!

Paul B. Cetani

Nor Cal Fire, Inc.
16840 Joleen Way, Bldg A
Morgan Hill, CA 95037
T 408-776-1580
F 408-776-1590
pa...@norcalfire.com<mailto:pa...@norcalfire.com>


From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Mike Stossel via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 3:15 AM
To: jaycs7...@gmail.com<mailto:jaycs7...@gmail.com>; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Mike Stossel mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>>
Subject: RE: Overhead / Friction Loss

Could you please also share your spreadsheet with me?

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of jaycs7919--- via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 6:13 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: jaycs7...@gmail.com<mailto:jaycs7...@gmail.com>; Brian Harris 
mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>>
Subject: Overhead / Friction Loss

I sent you an excel sheet I put together for our estimators to use to determine 
if they would need a pump or not based on design and water flows they obtained.

Jay Stough
NICET IV LAYOUT
NICET III ITM


On Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 2:09:21 PM EST, Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:



What’s a good “ballpark” number to include for pressure loss due to friction 
when guesstimating system demand? I figure EHP, Elevation, Underground, BFP. 
Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

Design Manager

bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/>

Phone: 704.896.9989

Fax: 704.896.1935


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RE: Fire sprinklers in harsh coastal environments

[Charles Thurston]

We have used Nickle Teflon under buildings where the guys got to look at the 
ocean while installing them and they still look good 6 years later.


Side Note I still have the old wax warmer and about 5 pounds of BeesWax we used 
to use for dipping them in.



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

[cid:image002.png@01D45A67.72F6B850]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Gabe White
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 2:50 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Fire sprinklers in harsh coastal environments

Thanks Everyone. Very helpful.



From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 on behalf of Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Reply-To: 
"sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>"
 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2018 at 11:23 AM
To: 
"sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>"
 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Re: Fire sprinklers in harsh coastal environments

Yes! Years ago, it wasn't uncommon for contractors to shop-dip sprinklers in 
wax before installing but no more. ALL finishes must be listed and 
factory-applied.



Steve Leyton

(Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: Gabe White mailto:g...@forensicbuilding.com>>
Date: 10/2/18 2:20 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Fire sprinklers in harsh coastal environments

Do they need a UL rating to be certified corrosion resistant? Per NFPA 13 
(6.2.6.1)



From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 on behalf of Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: 
"sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>"
 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2018 at 11:16 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Re: Fire sprinklers in harsh coastal environments

Wax coated. Perhaps some of the pvc coated but you would need to check

On Oct 2, 2018 at 2:05 PM, mailto:da...@aaafp.com>> wrote:
Yes.  NFPA 13 (2016) 6.2.6.1

[cid:image002.jpg@01D45A50.817FD8F0]

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Gabe White
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2018 1:01 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Fire sprinklers in harsh coastal environments

Does anyone know of a requirement for fire sprinklers to be of a certain type 
or material in harsh coastal environments to prevent corrosion from the salt 
air?


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RE: No Jockey Pump

[Charles Thurston]

Consider a taller building where city pressure only gets water up ¾ of the 
height. Start your pump with a flow switch and you are going to have a heck of 
a water hammer.

I did think about using flow switches to start the pump on a system where they 
are 3 dry valves and there is less than 15’ of pipe with water pressure in it. 
4 years ago I could not find anything that said there had to be a jockey pump.



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

[cid:image001.png@01D44052.EAFF1AB0]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Bruce Verhei
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 10:25 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: No Jockey Pump

So why do we use jockey pumps? Wouldn’t one of Mike H’s flow switches alway be 
cheaper?

Best.

Bruce Verhei

On Aug 29, 2018, at 19:05, Larry Keeping 
mailto:lkeep...@plcfire.com>> wrote:
NFPA 20 has never mandated jockey pumps.

Back in the cycle for the development of the 1999 edition, in response to 
Proposal 20-36, the Committee Statement confirmed that “A pressure maintenance 
pump is not required by the standard. …”

For the 2016 edition, some text was added, for the first time, to clarify that 
pressure maintenance is required for pressure-actuated fire pumps, but a jockey 
pump is not necessarily required to accomplish the task. Section 4.26.1 (c) 
allows “Another approved means that is not the main fire pump”. And again, the 
Committee Statement confirmed “… a pressure maintenance pump may not 
necessarily be required and that other forms of pressure maintenance may be 
used. …”.

Larry Keeping



From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt
Sent: August-29-18 5:15 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: No Jockey Pump

Hi group,
Found a 50 yr. old fire pump at a business that didn’t have a jockey pump. Am I 
missing something. Thanks

Tom Reinhardt
Fire Inspector/Plan Reviewer
Skokie Fire Department
7424 Niles Center Road
Skokie, IL 60077
Office: 847-982-5342
thomas.reinha...@skokie.org<mailto:thomas.reinha...@skokie.org>

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RE: No Jockey Pump

[Charles Thurston]

Is there a water flow switch setup to start the pump?




Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

[cid:image001.png@01D43FC3.D5AE9CB0]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 5:15 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: No Jockey Pump

Hi group,
Found a 50 yr. old fire pump at a business that didn't have a jockey pump. Am I 
missing something. Thanks

Tom Reinhardt
Fire Inspector/Plan Reviewer
Skokie Fire Department
7424 Niles Center Road
Skokie, IL 60077
Office: 847-982-5342
thomas.reinha...@skokie.org<mailto:thomas.reinha...@skokie.org>

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RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve

[Charles Thurston]

So True



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

[cid:image001.png@01D41D9F.6B232D20]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 8:04 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve

If George was still alive I wouldn't have had a chance to jump in.



Steve Leyton

(Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: "Mark.Phelps" mailto:mphe...@aerofire.com>>
Date: 7/16/18 4:59 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve

Second that!!

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 4:57 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve

These are the times I miss George.  He never thought he was the smartest guy in 
the room, he just was.  And never condescending, always available off site, 
just an honest pot smokin deadhead who's seen more than most.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 7:46 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve

Okay, you've got my attention.  What formulas do you think I need to use, 
besides the countless ones I already do?   Do you think your (highly 
theoretical) impeller formula is of some substantive use to me?  How would it 
add value to my firm's services?  What metrics would it help me derive to 
improve our product or life safety in general?   Just because it's a technical 
forum and you throw down a bunch of alpha-numeric equations (that may or may 
not be accurate), it doesn't add up automatically to a good practice or even 
information of value; much of the time, it seems like you need attention and 
you simply post these formulas because you like having people comment on them. 
You've said as much yourself on this forum.

For my sake, I absolutely don't need to see my opinions or own words in print.  
 When I contribute, I think most people would agree that I'm on point, stay on 
topic and generally add to the conversation.  I don't have a problem with 
people not agreeing with me and I don't need credit for getting stuff right and 
I'm really good about learning from my mistakes, which starts with admitting 
when I'm wrong.  I think I'm discriminating with my posts, which I don't think 
that you are and this isn't the first time that you've postulated regarding 
stuff that makes no sense.  Like your comment that sprinklers likely wouldn't 
have saved most or all of the lives lost in the Ghost Ship fire.

All I'm saying is to be more thoughtful and stop posting for the sake of 
posting.   What happens is that a thread like this one goes off on a tangent 
and people disengage.  I'll bet I'm not the only one that doesn't want to have 
to guess whether the next email is going to be worth opening or not.The 
original question was very simple and about whether or not there was a 
restriction about putting a PRV downstream of a pump discharge control valve.   
Please tell me how the formula  v=2*pi*r*f  gets me to a solution on this 
issue.  And while you're at it maybe throw out another formula for the spool 
piece you say we'll need ...  supposedly, I need to start using more formulas.

SML


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com<mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 4:26 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: PRV after pump discharge control valve

One of these days you are going to have to start using some formulas and 
numbers youself Steve, because like you said, this is a technical forum, not a 
who can blow their own horn the loudest forum.

Brad
@
Quoting Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>:

> Have you ever noticed that a single pump series can be applied across
> what seem like an incredibly wide spectrum of flows and
> pressures?   That's because they can be paired with a variety of
> drivers of different HP ratings and multitude of impellers.  AND THEN
> LISTED AS ASSEMBLIES.  The idea tha

RE: PVC drain line

[Charles Thurston]

So you have a "tree" system ESFR you want to turn into a "grid" system with 
plastic pipe.. Sounds like a bunch of calcs to be done.  From "my" point of 
view I would tie 2 branch lines together like a gang drain come off that to a 
valve in the ceiling with steel pipe Depending on the size of the branch lines 
I would feed the valve to a 1 ½" or 2 ½" hose connection. You need ½ as many 
valves as there are branch lines, You have not made the major impact on the 
hydraulics like it would connecting all the branch lines to 1 valve on each 
side of the feed.



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

[cid:image001.png@01D3C8C5.E24D8500]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: PVC drain line


A Friday afternoon conundrum for the group.



I have a client with corrosion issues in several wet, twenty year old, ESFR, 
warehouse systems.  These are center-fed systems.  Yes, center-fed. So all of 
the branchlines are dead ends.  Corrosion scale and sludge is pushed into the 
ends of the lines.  Flushing will be done.  End of the day though the client 
wants to add a tie-in drain line connecting all the ends of all the lines to 
drain/flush in the future.  It has been suggested that schedule 40 PVC might be 
used for these tie-in drains.



My response so far:



Practically, plastic should be okay.



But, it would not be recognized in NFPA 13.  Also, because it could fail in a 
fire, and we would expect high challenge fires in warehouses filled with 
combustibles like pallets and plastics, if it failed before the sprinklers 
operated, or before they were winning the battle you would have a potential 
system failure.  Chances are probably remote, but they would exist with the 
right (wrong) conditions.



I would expect that a knowledgeable inspector would question the installation 
at least.



I wouldn't specify it, but schedule 40 PVC might be an option for what you are 
trying to accomplish cost-effectively.



What say ye all?



Scott Futrell

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2

Cell: (612) 759-5556
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RE: Residential water storage

[Charles Thurston]

And standby power for that pump

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of John Irwin
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:12 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Residential water storage
> 
> Yep.
> 
> John Irwin
> DynaFire Inc.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:12 AM
> To: Sprinklerforum 
> Subject: Re: Residential water storage
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Is he aware that he is going to need a pump if he does not come off a public
> supply?
> 
> 
> 
>  Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> 
> Stonington, CT
> 
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 
> 860-553-3553 (fax)
> 
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > On Mar 19, 2018 at 9:51 AM,   > (mailto:john.ir...@dynafire.com)>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >  Nope. I offered that. They are adamant that they don't give up any
> > floor space. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> >
> > John Irwin
> > DynaFire Inc.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sprinklerforum  
> > On Behalf Of Travis Mack
> > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:47 AM
> > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > Subject: Re: Residential water storage
> >
> > Instead of underground tank, can you sell them on a Talco Home Hydrant
> > tank and pump system? They have a small foot print.
> >
> > Put an automatic float valve on it and you have your city supply being
> > used should it be available.
> >
> > Travis Mack, SET
> > MFP Design, LLC
> > "Follow" us on Facebook:
> > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
> > Send large files to MFP Design via:
> > https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > >  On Mar 19, 2018, at 6:41 AM, John Irwin  
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >  I swear after 25 years in sprinklers I am amazed at how often new
> > > situations are still presented to me …
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Here’s my situation … 22,000 sqft single family home. The owners
> > > lost  water completely in the last hurricane and want to make sure
> > > that the  new sprinkler system will continue to have a water supply
> > > if this  happens again. So they want to bury a grey water tank in
> > > the yard  that’s specifically for fire sprinkler supply. What
> > > considerations do  I even start with on this? It’s a 13D system, so
> > > do I have to take  NFPA 22 into consideration? How do I get water
> > > out of an underground  tank? Standard well pump? Should I not even
> > > bother with a city supply  if I am feeding off of a tank? Obviously
> > > money doesn’t seem to be a  consideration …
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  John Irwin
> > >
> > >  Fire Sprinkler Specialist
> > >
> > >  DynaFire, Inc.
> > >
> > >  727-282-9243 – Cell
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  *“A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is
> > > not  dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an
> > > interruption on  our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an
> > > outsider on our  business. He is a part of it. We are not doing him
> > > a favour by serving  him. He is doing us a favour by giving us an
> > > opportunity to do so.”*
> > >  -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
> > > scrubbed...
> > >  URL:
> > >
> > >  > > kl  er.org/attachments/20180319/3cc2de75/attachment.html>
> > >  ___
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> > >  Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > >
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> > > kl
> > >  er.org
> > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
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> > er.org ___
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> 

RE: Inspection of pipe hangers

[Charles Thurston]

AND Make him provide his own safety harness



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile



> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of Richard Lindner
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 4:51 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists firesprinkler. org
> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Subject: Re: Inspection of pipe hangers
> 
> On a side note based on your "ride him around" comment.. make sure to get a
> copy of his insurance naming your company on the paperwork  in the event
> something happens during that ride time. Our company has to routinely provide
> proof of coverage when I'm inspecting properties.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2018 10:33 AM, "Mike Hairfield" <fsl...@msn.com> wrote:
> 
> Using Sammy X-Press swivel hangers.
> 
> 
> Inspectors wants us to ride him around on our lift so he can inspect the 
> hangers
> 
> 
> 
> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> on
> behalf of Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 10:59 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Inspection of pipe hangers
> 
> Could you use a drill-in/drill-through hanger instead of a clamp (not sure if 
> that
> would be easier to see).
> 
> Is there a concern about doing the inspection? (is it a big deal to comply 
> with the
> request?)
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On
> Behalf Of Mike Hairfield
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 9:48 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Re: Inspection of pipe hangers
> 
> They can be installed after the decking but he can't see where they are 
> attached
> to the top
> 
> of the bar joists just to the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> on
> behalf of Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 10:45 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Inspection of pipe hangers
> 
> Are asking that the hangers be installed on bar joists that are just out in 
> space?
> Would the insulation envelope the hangers so they are not visible?
> Can the hangers be installed after the insulated decking? What if there was
> some all-thread rod hanging down - could they confirm the location with the
> rods?
> 
> It sounds like it might be worthwhile calling them to see exactly what the
> concern is. It would be a bummer if we solved the wrong problem.
> 
> Matt
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On
> Behalf Of Mike Hairfield
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 9:30 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Re: Inspection of pipe hangers
> 
> It's a metal building that has insulated roof panels that lay flat on the bar 
> joists.
> 
> 
> There isn't any corrugated decking.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> on
> behalf of Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 10:23 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Inspection of pipe hangers
> 
> I have never heard of that, but I am super-curious about the installation.
> Can you give more details?
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On
> Behalf Of Mike Hairfield
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 9:11 AM
> To: Sprinkler Forum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Subject: Inspection of pipe hangers
> 
> I've got a project where the AHJ states "that the roof insulation shall not be
> installed until the location
> 
> of all Sprinkler Hangers have been inspected by the inspector".
> 
> 
> Has anyone had this come up in the past and what was their reasoning.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Mike
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> 8b028544/attachment.html>
> ___
> Sprinkle

RE: Underground Dry System Pipe Type

[Charles Thurston]

My concern with the cement lined Di. Is it not designed to have water in it all 
the time keeping the cement lining wet? I would be concerned on a fry system of 
the cement drying out. I know I have walked on plenty of dry dement walks and 
gotten that white powder off it and the surface has dried out and turned back 
to powder.



Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile



> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:36 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Underground Dry System Pipe Type
> 
> Cement lined ductile iron.  If you use standard DI, and a standard atmospheric
> sourced air compressor you can have rust and scaling buildup with ambient air
> inside pipe in contact with cooler ground temps.
> 
> How are you going to slope underground pipe back to an aboveground valve
> room?  Basement level valve room?
> 
> 
> Craig L. Prahl
> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
> Direct - 864.920.7540
> Fax - 864.920.7129
> Direct Extension  77540
> CH2M is now Jacobs.
> 200 Verdae Blvd.
> Greenville, SC  29607
> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
> http://www.jacobs.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of Reed A. Roisum, SET
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:11 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Underground Dry System Pipe Type [EXTERNAL]
> 
> I asked a similar question a number of years ago and it appears as though the
> consensus at that time was that dry-pipe system underground pipe should be
> ductile iron.  We have an application where the dry-pipe system leaves the 
> valve
> room and goes underground and then extends above ground.  Is ductile iron the
> best option for the underground portion?  We are able to slope to drain back 
> to
> the valve room.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Reed Roisum
> 
> 
> Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection
> Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 |
> KFIengineers.com<http://www.kfiengineers.com>
> 
> _
> _
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> _
> _
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Re: FDC & Pump

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Jamie,

We have a mall here like that, Just NO drains for each space..

Saturday, February 3, 2018, 5:49:12 PM, you wrote:


You say that, but we've had a fire marshal in the past try and require a 
control valve and drain on every branch line in a retail building, so you could 
isolate only the area requiring work. 



On Feb 2, 2018 at 3:12 PM,  wrote:

Why not proposed valves every 50’ or so to be sure that you can isolate down to 
the smallest section(s) of pipe for potential interruptions?   (SMH)
 
If the intent is to work on the feed pipe then how far down the line would you 
have to put the FDC to arrange it so it wouldn’t be interrupted?   Seems to me 
the AHJ is wishfully trying to design for a scenario that has an infinitesimal 
chance of occurring in the first place and that can’t be “pumped around” in any 
case.   Because such as scenario isn’t reasonably foreseeable, the standard 
(14) is mute in that regard.
 
SL
 
 
 
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 11:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
No,
I have had to put an extra control valve for the standpipe feed at point of 
connection to the riser manifold in addition to the standpipe isolation valves. 
 The AHJ’s reasoning was that if work was required on the feed pipe it could be 
isolated and wouldn’t affect the other systems on the manifold.
 
Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager
 
TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/ 
   
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:39 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
What valve are you referring to as “standpipe feed” control?  Are you talking 
about the isolation valves required in 6.3.2?   If that’s the valve you’re 
referring to, then no you do not have to pump downstream of that (those) 
valve(s).
 
The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 
Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.
 
SL  
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 4:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
Tom,
Are you saying that if I put a control valve for the standpipe feed at the 
riser manifold and the FDC is connected to the riser manifold that I must also 
connect the FDC downstream of the standpipe feed control valve?  Is that in 14? 
 I have had a couple of AHJ’s make me put a control valve in over the years and 
I didn’t know it was wrong.  I thought it was just like the individual system 
control valves on the manifold.
Thank you,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager
 
TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/ 
   
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 4:36 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: FDC & Pump
 
What Larry said..
And there can’t be any valves between the FDC and the FDV’s on the standpipe 
unless you have more than one standpipe and have isolation valves at the base 
of each standpipe so you can’t take them off the riser manifold, for example.
TD
 
 
The requirement is from NFPA 13, not from NFPA 20. Here is the text from NFPA 
13-2013:
 
8.17.2.4.8  Fire department connections shall not be connected on the suction 
side of fire pumps.
 
Larry Keeping
 
 
I have always installed FDC's on the discharge side of fire pumps.  Looking 
through 2013 NFPA 20, I don't see anything precluding the instillation on the 
supply side.  Is the FDC allowed to be installed on the supply?
I have a contractor that has installed the FDC on the supply run-in, instead of 
stubing up a secondary line from the remote FDC.
Thanks,
Jamie
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Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Saw-Tooth Ceilings

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Bcasterline,

un-fermented.

Wednesday, December 6, 2017, 3:21:19 AM, you wrote:

> Anybody know what kind of wine goes best with crow?
> Thanks in advance,
> Brad.

> Quoting Roland Huggins <rhugg...@firesprinkler.org>:

>> Kyle - You are correct.  It would be 15 X 14 (assuming they can not  
>> comply with the beam rule)
>>
>> You can space sprinkler to sprinkler with up to a 36 inch elevation  
>> change IF and ONLY IF, you:
>>
>>   Are LH or OH (so does not apply to storage). And
>>
>>   You meet the beam rule.
>>
>> 8.6.4.1.3 (A) explicitly uses the phrase “considered a wall” when  
>> more than 36 inches.
>>
>> (B) allows you to ignore if you can meet the beam rule so if you  
>> can’t, you then treat it like a wall.
>>
>> As you pointed out and quoted the text - Both sides of the sprinkler  
>> are assigned the greater of either side.  7 on one side and 2 x 1 on  
>> the other equates to 7 on BOTH sides.
>>
>> This is the long standing methodology and ugly has it may be, that’s  
>> who we have to dance with. I suspect everyone knows this but we  
>> can’t help wishing it were prettier.
>>
>>
>> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
>> American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
>> Dallas, TX
>> http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/>
>>
>> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 5, 2017, at 6:51 AM, Kyle.Montgomery  
>>> <kmontgom...@aerofire.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You guys are making a good case... I'm just having a hard time with  
>>> it because it's different than what I've been doing for 10 years.  
>>> But as a contractor, it would definitely be helpful if I was wrong  
>>> in this instance (i.e. save some money).
>>>
>>> I wish some of the "Big Wigs" on this site would chime in with  
>>> their opinions.
>>>
>>> -Kyle M



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-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
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Re: Sports Games Issue/concern

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Dennis,

We have done several in this area (They do call it the "Golf Capitol") I have 
used an Extended Coverage sidewall centered on the space at the end where the 
golfer is standing. No damage so far. Most have mesh "ceilings" in them and at 
times you can get your head above that far enough above so it will not deflect 
and hit the head.

Wednesday, October 25, 2017, 8:33:50 AM, you wrote:

> I know how they like to beat everything to death but have you tried 
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

> -Original Message-
> From: Brendan Rotter-Xtreme Fire [mailto:brot...@xtremefire.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 12:49 PM
> To: Clark, Dennis <dcl...@siouxfalls.org>
> Subject: RE: Sports Games Issue/concern

> Semi-recessed cage- pop right off...lol..im sorry I just got nothing.




> Sincerely,

> Brendan Rotter
> Nicet Level III
> Project Manager

> Xtreme Fire Protection
> 4102 N. Cliff
> Sioux Falls, SD 57104
> Ph (605) 357- FIRE (3473) EXT 3
> Fx (605) 357- 3487
> brot...@xtremefire.com





> -Original Message-
> From: Clark, Dennis [mailto:dcl...@siouxfalls.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 12:33 PM
> To: Brendan Rotter-Xtreme Fire
> Subject: Re: Sports Games Issue/concern

> Cages worth a darn?

> Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone

> -- Original message--
> From: Brendan Rotter-Xtreme Fire
> Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2017 12:29 PM
> To: Clark, Dennis;
> Cc:
> Subject:RE: Sports Games Issue/concern

> They wont be concealed for long...one hit sodder snaps off if it doesn't pop 
> the head anyways.  I wouldn't trust that.




> Sincerely,

> Brendan Rotter
> Nicet Level III
> Project Manager

> Xtreme Fire Protection
> 4102 N. Cliff
> Sioux Falls, SD 57104
> Ph (605) 357- FIRE (3473) EXT 3
> Fx (605) 357- 3487
> brot...@xtremefire.com





> -Original Message-
> From: Clark, Dennis [mailto:dcl...@siouxfalls.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 12:17 PM
> To: Brendan Rotter-Xtreme Fire
> Subject: Re: Sports Games Issue/concern

> What about concealed sprinkler heads?

> Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone

> -- Original message--
> From: Brendan Rotter-Xtreme Fire
> Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2017 11:58 AM
> To: Clark, Dennis;
> Cc:
> Subject:Sports Games Issue/concern


> Dennis,
> Below is the golf simulator closets at Sport Games.  Im guessing these are 
> opening that you hit golf balls at screens?

> Anyways, the owner has addressed that putting sprinkler heads in here is 
> going to potentially get damaged.

> Thoughts?


> [cid:image002.png@01D34CBE.F2F70AD0]



> Sincerely,

> Brendan Rotter
> Nicet Level III
> Project Manager

> Xtreme Fire Protection
> 4102 N. Cliff
> Sioux Falls, SD 57104
> Ph (605) 357- FIRE (3473) EXT 3
> Fx (605) 357- 3487
> brot...@xtremefire.com





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-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
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Re: Use of E-pipe

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Firstin,

I had one here looked into it for steel pipe doing that, He was going to allow 
it. We would have to remove all the heads and plug the outlets before and then 
install new heads after. Turned out to be cheaper to replace the pipe and then 
fix the sheet rock.

Monday, October 9, 2017, 4:26:16 PM, you wrote:

> Has anyone heard of an AHJ approving the use of E-Pipe (epoxy lining) for 
> copper sprinkler pipes that are springing pinhole leaks? 

> Owen Evans

> Sent from my iPhone
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-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
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Re: Seismic Rings

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Steve,

Thanks, That is what I was thinking and had not found it in the book.

Saturday, September 23, 2017, 9:33:07 AM, you wrote:


No, flexible hose fittings are "in lieu of ..."


Steve L.


 Original message ----
From: Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com> 
Date: 9/23/17 5:30 AM (GMT-08:00) 
To: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: Seismic Rings 

Hello Sprinklerforum,

I have a location adding a ceiling to an area that is open with upright heads, 
No biggie. Using Flex Head lines for the first time. Do I still need the 
clearance hole 1" bigger around the sprinkler head in the ceiling tile? 
Concealed heads.



-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile





-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
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Seismic Rings

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

I have a location adding a ceiling to an area that is open with upright heads, 
No biggie. Using Flex Head lines for the first time. Do I still need the 
clearance hole 1" bigger around the sprinkler head in the ceiling tile? 
Concealed heads.



-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  thurst...@pyebarkerfire.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile
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Re: Heat trace power

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Fpdcdesign,

The one time I did heat trace, the controller had trouble contacts for remote 
monitoring.


Friday, August 11, 2017, 10:07:21 AM, you wrote:


Anything special needed for monitoring power to heat trace?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



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Re: Bending Pipe

[Charles Thurston]

Hello SET,

I did a curved roof, took the pipe to my local welding shop that also does 
decorative hand railings, Gave them the radius and had them put it through 
their roll bender 3-4 passes and I had curved pipe. Then hauled it to the fab 
shop and had the weld-lets put on the side. It was drilled after bending Look 
up WTBW TV station in Myrtle Beach, SC to see the radius.

Friday, July 21, 2017, 3:30:53 PM, you wrote:


Anyone out there ever taken advantage of the allowance in NFPA 13 to bend 
system piping?  If so, how did you go about specifying it for fabrication?  
Also, how did it turn out?  Was it worth the effort?  I have a project that has 
a curved roof that looks almost like a wave.  Bent pipe would really help if I 
can figure out a way to get it fabricated.
 
Micah Davis
www.dynamicfiredesigns.com



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Re: CPVC: To Move, or Not To Move

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Matthew,

There are several ways shown in the manual about putting in offsets, making a 
corner, and I think it even shows the sizes needed to use an offset loop. 

Monday, July 10, 2017, 9:31:43 AM, you wrote:


Reading the Tech Update got me thinking.
 
What do we do to address the need of CPVC to expand when we have hard strapped 
it to wood?
 
Never braced CPVC so more curious than anything.
 
R/
Matt
 
 
 
Matthew J. Willis
Project Manager
Rapid Fire Protection Inc.
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605.348.2342
Direct Line-605.593.5063
Cell-605.391.2733
Fax:-605.348.0108
 

 
 
 



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Re: Electric monitoring of control valves

[Charles Thurston]

Hello 

Ken nailed it right on the head. I do try not to tie devices all over the 
building to the same circuit, BUT could. Like I said what it shows on the panel 
can be programmed by the alarm system programmer. If the Local AHJ does not 
like what it shows it is a very simple matter to change.

Wednesday, July 5, 2017, 11:54:48 AM, you wrote:


Owen,

First, per NFPA 72 a tamper switch is defined as a supervisory 
signal-initiating device in chapter 17.16 [2013].  It functions when a switch 
is closed, completing a circuit.  In this respect it is no different than a 
smoke detector as the alarm signal, in this case supervisory, is only created 
when the valve is moved two or fewer revolutions of the hand wheel of the valve 
or upon motion of the control apparatus of the valve of more than 1/5th of its 
travel distance.

As for how many of these devices can be supplied by one pair of wires that 
answer is only limited by NFPA 72, which limits the number of such devices on a 
circuit. Section 23.8.5.6.2 [2013] advises that:

The number of supervisory signal–initiating devices permitted to be connected 
to a single initiating device circuit shall not exceed 20.
There may be limitations established by the device manufacturer, or the panel, 
or the addressable modules and the listing of those devices should be reviewed 
prior to raising an alarm [no pun intended].

Further, the explanatory text in the handbook gives the following information 
[all emphasis is mine]:

The Code permits up to 20 supervisory signal–initiating devices on a single 
initiating device circuit because doing so does not degrade the reliability or 
operability of the fire alarm system. Site specific needs and conditions might 
dictate that a circuit serves fewer devices. For example, if a facility has 20 
sprinkler control valves each equipped with a supervisory switch, all the valve 
supervisory switches could be connected to the same initiating device circuit 
and still comply with the Code. However, if a supervisory signal were received, 
it would require that someone check every valve to find the one initiating the 
signal. Supervisory signal–initiating devices include valve supervisory 
switches, air pressure switches, building temperature switches, fire protection 
water tank level and temperature switches, and other devices that are designed 
to ensure that fire protection and life safety features are in service at the 
time of a fire. Refer to the defined terms supervisory signal-initiating device 
and supervisory signal in 3.3.132.5 and 3.3.257.9.
So, there doesn't appear to be any reason that such an arrangement as you've 
described would not be in compliance with the applicable code.  You might also 
ask for testing to prove that the tampers on all of the valves generate the 
required signal at the panel.

sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
Escondido, California 92025
Phone 760-745-6181
Visit our website
On 07/04/2017 9:38 AM, firs...@aol.com wrote:

Here is the situation on an installation at a new hotel. The DCVA has tamper 
switches. Two PIV's near by do not have tamper switches. The hotel is complete, 
no wiring had been run to the PIV's. (CFC 903.4) The DCVA and PIV's sit within 
the same large planter with lots of finished concrete between the valves and 
the alarm panel, about 150'. So the alarm guys tapped into the wiring of the 
DCVA tampers and ran it to the PIV's to install tampers. Is that legal? If a 
PIV is closed will it show at the panel or monitoring company as a DCVA tamper? 
I'm not knowledgeable on the wiring of devices. 
Owen Evans
13D Design

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Re: Electric monitoring of control valves

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Firstin,

Well more information is needed to answer your question. 

If it is an addressable system and they took the "data" loop out to the 
Backflow, Then it would be easy to add more points and have them all show up 
different.

If it is an addressable system and they did NOT take the "data" loop 
out to the Backflow, Then they can add it to the existing point all the valves 
will show up as the same. As to what it displays the wording is up to the alarm 
system programmer. 

I don't have 72 in front of me but you are allowed "I Think" 10 
supervisory devices on a point.

Tuesday, July 4, 2017, 12:38:51 PM, you wrote:

> Here is the situation on an installation at a new hotel. The DCVA has tamper 
> switches. Two PIV's near by do not have tamper switches. The hotel is 
> complete, no wiring had been run to the PIV's. (CFC 903.4) The DCVA and PIV's 
> sit within the same large planter with lots of finished concrete between the 
> valves and the alarm panel, about 150'. So the alarm guys tapped into the 
> wiring of the DCVA tampers and ran it to the PIV's to install tampers. Is 
> that legal? If a PIV is closed will it show at the panel or monitoring 
> company as a DCVA tamper? I'm not knowledgeable on the wiring of devices. 
> Owen Evans
> 13D Design

> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Charles Thurston]

 heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.
 
In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.
 
What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.
 
 
 
Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell
 
 

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screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)



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Re: Pre-action detection options

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Fpdcdesign,

Look at http://www.protectowire.com/  They have a couple of lines of the cable 
listed to be installed in ambient temperatures of 200 degrees. EPC and XLR 
lines of cable. I have not used it but have worked with a little of it.

Monday, June 12, 2017, 11:34:00 AM, you wrote:


I am working on a facility with a pre-action system in an industrial facility 
with ambient ceiling temperatures in excess of 200 degreesF. They have had a 
problem with accidental activations, mostly due to the (electronic) detection 
system. Is there a good resource for various options for detection? The 
standard ones are proving problematic. 

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



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MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
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(843) 916 - 8787
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Re: Golf simulator

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Dewayne,

We have several in this area. What is the ceiling of the simulator made of? We 
have some that are nothing but net material where the ceiling sprinklers 
protect them. Others have a canvas type ceiling stretched tight, Those get a 
extended coverage sidewall head centered in the opening (9'6" side) pointed in. 
They vary below the ceiling of inches to a couple of feet. This is what the 
AHJs in both jurisdictions have accepted. I can say you do not want a head in 
the booth anywhere as it will get hit and damaged.

Thursday, June 8, 2017, 9:53:26 AM, you wrote:


I have a room with a 10’2” ceiling where a self-contained golf simulator is to 
be place in.  The simulator is 10’0” high which will leave 2in clearance 
between it and the ceiling.  The simulator will be situated so that there will 
be 18” of clearance between itself and the 3 walls surrounding it.  The 
footprint of the simulator is 9’6”x16’6”.
1)  Do I need  sprinklers in the simulator?
2)  Since there is only two inches of space above the simulator do I even 
need sprinklers in the ceiling above it?  
 
My thought was to provide ceiling protection for the pockets created on the 
sides of the simulator and put sprinklers in the simulator itself.
 
Thanks,
 
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager
 
TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity
W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/
 
   
 
 



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Re: FM Global Electrical Room Fire Protection

[Charles Thurston]

Hello,

I have not looked in a few years, We did a TV station that was FM 
insured and sprinklered the electrical rooms and a Pre-Action in the server 
room. FM did require them back then ( -7 years ago).

Saturday, April 22, 2017, 12:23:38 PM, you wrote:


The owner on a project is wondering if they can avoid installing fire 
sprinklers in the electrical rooms.  I gave them the IFC and NFPA 13 references 
that allow not sprinklering certain spaces.
 
This is an FM Global insured property and I looked through the Data Sheets but 
couldn’t find any references to allowing removal of sprinkler protection in 
electrical rooms.  Anyone know if FM addresses this or can you point me to 
which Data Sheet might speak to it?
 
I’m not looking for a discussion on whether we should be sprinklering these 
spaces or not, but just if FM has any references to the topic.
 
Thank you.
 
Reed Roisum
 
 
 
Reed A. Roisum, SET |Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc.| Senior Fire Protection 
Designer | Fargo, ND | direct:701.552.9903 |mobile: 
701.388.1352|KFIengineers.com

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Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Dewayne,

Another thing, The way "I" see it the 15 seconds is not trip time, It is time 
till water comes out the head.

Friday, April 7, 2017, 7:45:53 AM, you wrote:


Thanks Ed, I missed the one about the K-factors.  I took a look at the 
inspections tags and the dry system has 70sec trip times so it looks like a wet 
system is the way to go.  We could retrofit the valve with an electronic 
accelerator but Tyco states to only expect the trip time to get about 20sec 
better.
Dewayne 
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 11:47 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers
 
A couple of things to consider:
-Section 8.4.5.2 – can’t use residential sprinks on a dry system unless 
specifically listed for dry systems.
-Section 8.3.4.1(2) – Unless the pipe is galvanized or otherwise 
corrosion resistant, minimum K-factor is 5.6.  
 
So you’ll need a residential sprink that is listed for dry systems and is K5.6 
or greater.
 
Ed Kramer
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 8:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
Subject: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers
 
NFPA 13 (07ed)
 
I have an existing 5th floor shell space that is installed as a light hazard 
dry system that has pipe in the shell space and in the attic.  They are turning 
this floor into a dormitory (R-2).
1)Can I use listed residential heads on return bends and only pick up 4 heads 
per 11.3.1.1 or will I need to pick up 1950SF?  What if there are incidental 
areas such as a laundry room, ect. in the same areas as the dorm rooms?
2)What would be the required trip time be per Table 7.2.3.6.1?  15sec for 
residential or 60sec for light hazard?
 
Thanks,
Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager
 
TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity
W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/
 

 
TOTAL Mechanical voted “Top Workplace” for a 4th consecutive year. 
 



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Re: different k-factors in same area

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Tim,

I don't have the book in front of me, but no the K factor does not have to be 
the same. It calls for the same temperature heads in the same area. K factors 
are different in a lot of rooms for different coverage areas.


Thursday, March 2, 2017, 8:58:02 AM, you wrote:


I have a half-wall that separates an office area from a warehouse area. The 
design is for K factors of 8.0 inside warehouse area, and 5.6 inside office 
area. But since the halfwall doesn’t reach the deck the area above the office 
area protected from the ceiling  must have same k-factor as warehouse correct? 
Can anyone point that out in NFPA 13 as a code reference?
 
 
 
Tim Easter,PE

522 Stockton Street
Jacksonville, FL 32204
Office: (904) 387-7973  Cell: (904) 476-4325  Fax: (904) 394-7261
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Floating Dock

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Steve,

I checked into the EBAA product. They are epoxy coated internal and 
out. You can get them with linear movement of 4". 8" or 12" ranges. You can get 
a model that is "Pressure compensated" (will not try to get longer as the 
pressure goes up) and one that is not. Yes you can get just a "ball joint" 
fitting and bolt to the ends of the other one to give 40° deflection per end. 

I had a Metraflex on the end from the gangway before and am waiting 
till we can get it fished off the bottom of the river to see what it looks like.

Friday, February 17, 2017, 12:23:22 PM, you wrote:

> I'm watching this thread with a keen interest because 2019 NFPA 14 just went 
> into cycle and we've formed task group to lay the groundwork for marine 
> standpipe system requirements.The Yelomine product is very intriguing - 
> thank you John for sharing that.   

> I'd like to comment on a couple of the other posts - to Scott M's share of 
> the EBAA flexible expansion joint, it's described as being capable of 
> accommodating ground motions, with up to 20° deflection "per ball".  I don't 
> think the range of ground motions is adequate to encompass the range of 
> gangway angles, but I wonder if multiple balls can be closely linked.   I'm 
> also wondering how corrosion resistant the fittings are in an exposed 
> maritime environment.   

> There were multiple mentions of the Metraflex-type connectors, i.e. rubber 
> lined/braided SS hose.   I presumed those would be the logical solution until 
> I spoke with two manufacturers of this class of product at the NFPA 
> convention last June.   If I'm understanding them correction, the 
> manufacturers won't warrant these fittings in such an application because 
> marine air will aggressively degrade the SS hose.  Interesting, if the 
> fitting is submerged it will supposedly last a lot longer but there's not 
> been any testing of this application.

> Steve L.

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Travis Allen- Allen Engineering
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:23 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 47, Issue 24

> I haven't designed any such systems but have seen braided hose (not sure if 
> it was a metraflex product) utilized for the dock to land connection or 
> gangway to dock connection.

> Travis E. Allen, PE
> Principal

> Allen Engineering, PLLC

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of sprinklerforum-requ...@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:28 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 47, Issue 24

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Re: Floating Dock

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Steve,

I had a Metraflex "V" connecting the bottom of the gangway to the 
floating section. Back in 2010 they told me then there was no warranty and it 
got excluded from my warranty. I have no idea how it has held up as it is now 
in the muck on the bottom. When the 85' of pipe fell it took out 2 hangers on 
the gangway and that with it. The 115' of rigid floating dock could not 
withstand the flexing or the waves and the aluminum framing has broken in 
several places. I am looking at the FLEX-TEND® Flexible Expansion joint by EBAA 
IRON (http://www.ebaa.com/products/flex/flexible-expansion-joint/flex-tend/30) 
Scott Mitchell suggested. I have a call into them and waiting on a call back. 
If I read the literature right it is made of Ductile Iron and talk about above 
ground installation. They also make a Ball joint and it looks like they could 
be bolted together to get increased angular movement over the 20 degrees, No 
expansion movement in those.


Do not be surprised if you get a question about this next Thursday. :)

Friday, February 17, 2017, 12:23:22 PM, you wrote:

> I'm watching this thread with a keen interest because 2019 NFPA 14 just went 
> into cycle and we've formed task group to lay the groundwork for marine 
> standpipe system requirements.The Yelomine product is very intriguing - 
> thank you John for sharing that.   

> I'd like to comment on a couple of the other posts - to Scott M's share of 
> the EBAA flexible expansion joint, it's described as being capable of 
> accommodating ground motions, with up to 20° deflection "per ball".  I don't 
> think the range of ground motions is adequate to encompass the range of 
> gangway angles, but I wonder if multiple balls can be closely linked.   I'm 
> also wondering how corrosion resistant the fittings are in an exposed 
> maritime environment.   

> There were multiple mentions of the Metraflex-type connectors, i.e. rubber 
> lined/braided SS hose.   I presumed those would be the logical solution until 
> I spoke with two manufacturers of this class of product at the NFPA 
> convention last June.   If I'm understanding them correction, the 
> manufacturers won't warrant these fittings in such an application because 
> marine air will aggressively degrade the SS hose.  Interesting, if the 
> fitting is submerged it will supposedly last a lot longer but there's not 
> been any testing of this application.

> Steve L.

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Travis Allen- Allen Engineering
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:23 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 47, Issue 24

> I haven't designed any such systems but have seen braided hose (not sure if 
> it was a metraflex product) utilized for the dock to land connection or 
> gangway to dock connection.

> Travis E. Allen, PE
> Principal

> Allen Engineering, PLLC

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of sprinklerforum-requ...@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:28 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 47, Issue 24

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-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
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Re: Floating Dock

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Charles,

See if I can get all the answers in this email:

It is schedule 40 now and had to be centered in the floating section to keep it 
level, This will be 4 feet off center. There is no handrail on the floating 
section so it will be mounted to the deck with 2' risers to the hose valves. 
Leaning toward schedule 10 to save 10# per foot of weight.

Art:  

Well from low tide to high tide it has to get 12" shorter, I already have a 
flex hose at the top and there is a custom made Metraflex "V" hose at the 
bottom (now ON the bottom) to handle the movement. The "U" hose did not have 
enough movement range.

Scott:

Nice idea, I will look into those.

Matt:

The water is brackish, Tide going out is fairly fresh, tide coming in gets some 
salt into the area.

John:

I looked into HDPE pipe on the initial install back in 2010. It is above ground 
almost a 900 foot straight run out to the dock head, From my notes there was 
about 6 feet of difference in the length of the pipe due to temperature changes 
where is was not buried, The other was the sunlight exposure. I know of 2-3 
docks in this area that are closed for use due to the HDPE welded joints 
separating under the decking and there is no way to weld it for a repair.


Heck we even have a few in this area installed with white schedule 40 plumbing 
pipe with glued joints under the decking.



Thursday, February 16, 2017, 4:01:30 PM, you wrote:


Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river. 
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in 5 years ago.

-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile 



-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile___
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Floating Dock

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

 Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river. 
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in 5 years ago.

-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile ___
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Re: (1) FDC or (2)

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Ed,

I like the diagram in A.8.17.2.4.4(a)

Monday, February 6, 2017, 4:52:48 PM, you wrote:


Maybe a graphic will help.  Look at NFPA 13 (2013) Fig A.8.16.1.1.  In 
particular, the “wet pipe and dry pipe system”.  The FDC connects to the header 
on the supply-side of the dry and wet system control valves.  Now look at the 
“wet pipe system” – there is no control valve downstream of the FDC tie-in 
location.  But you could add one there, since it’s on the system riser, not on 
the FDC pipe.   If you need to do maintenance on that system – close the added 
valve.
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 3:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: (1) FDC or (2)
 
I can’t picture where your control valve is that you’re proposing but unless 
something has changed in NFPA 13, there are no control or isolation valves 
allowed on an FDC line.  
 

Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd. 
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com

 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 4:04 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: (1) FDC or (2) [EXTERNAL]
 
On a single-system wet system riser, there typically is no control valve 
downstream of the FDC tie-in location.  By adding a control valve downstream of 
the FDC tie-in location, system A can be shut down for repair/maintenance by 
closing system A control valve.  FDC remains fully functional for system B.  
Similar in function to an underground supply/header with multiple systems.  Now 
if either of the FDC pipes that connect the single FDC to the 2 system risers 
gets damaged, all bets are off.
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 2:02 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: (1) FDC or (2)
 
How would you shut down potential supply flow from the common FDC to the out of 
service system riser?
 

Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd. 
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 2:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: (1) FDC or (2) [EXTERNAL]
 
Brian, If FDC supply pipe were run from a single FDC to both system risers, and 
connected to the system risers between the BFP (or other supply check valve) 
and a system control valve, either of the systems could be shut down for 
maintenance/repair without impairing the FDC for the in-service system.  Each 
system riser would need its own FDC check valve.  Doing this might require more 
bulk pipe and a couple more control valves.
 
Ed Kramer
Bamford Fire
 
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Brian Harris
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 9:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: (1) FDC or (2)
 
I’m working on a storage building that because of the way the building was 
built each “side” has its own Riser with its own FDC connection (picture a big 
horseshoe shape). The architect has requested that a single FDC be located on 
the corner of one of the building sides. Is it feasible to do this and tie the 
systems together via the FDC pipe or does each Riser still require its own FDC 
connection?
 
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935
 



-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile___
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Re: (1) FDC or (2)

[Charles Thurston]

Hello 

When I suggested connecting it to the underground supply line, This is what I 
was looking at From NFPA 2013 8.17.2.4.3 and 8.17.2.4.4:

8.17.2.4.2 For single systems, the fire department connection
shall be installed as follows:
(1) Wet system — on the system side of system control, check,
and alarm valves (see Figure A.8.16.1.1)
(2) Dry system — between the system control valve and the
dry pipe valve
(3) Preaction system — between the preaction valve and the
check valve on the system side of the preaction valve
(4) Deluge system — on the system side of the deluge valve

8.17.2.4.3 For multiple systems, the fire department connection
shall be connected between the supply control valves and
the system control valves.

8.17.2.4.4* The requirements of 8.17.2.4.2 and 8.17.2.4.3 shall
not apply where the fire department connection is connected
to the underground piping.

Monday, February 6, 2017, 4:26:41 PM, you wrote:


I can’t picture where your control valve is that you’re proposing but unless 
something has changed in NFPA 13, there are no control or isolation valves 
allowed on an FDC line.  
 

Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd. 
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com

 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 4:04 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: (1) FDC or (2) [EXTERNAL]
 
On a single-system wet system riser, there typically is no control valve 
downstream of the FDC tie-in location.  By adding a control valve downstream of 
the FDC tie-in location, system A can be shut down for repair/maintenance by 
closing system A control valve.  FDC remains fully functional for system B.  
Similar in function to an underground supply/header with multiple systems.  Now 
if either of the FDC pipes that connect the single FDC to the 2 system risers 
gets damaged, all bets are off.
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 2:02 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: (1) FDC or (2)
 
How would you shut down potential supply flow from the common FDC to the out of 
service system riser?
 

Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd. 
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 2:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: (1) FDC or (2) [EXTERNAL]
 
Brian, If FDC supply pipe were run from a single FDC to both system risers, and 
connected to the system risers between the BFP (or other supply check valve) 
and a system control valve, either of the systems could be shut down for 
maintenance/repair without impairing the FDC for the in-service system.  Each 
system riser would need its own FDC check valve.  Doing this might require more 
bulk pipe and a couple more control valves.
 
Ed Kramer
Bamford Fire
 
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Brian Harris
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 9:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: (1) FDC or (2)
 
I’m working on a storage building that because of the way the building was 
built each “side” has its own Riser with its own FDC connection (picture a big 
horseshoe shape). The architect has requested that a single FDC be located on 
the corner of one of the building sides. Is it feasible to do this and tie the 
systems together via the FDC pipe or does each Riser still require its own FDC 
connection?
 
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935
 



-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile___
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http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: (1) FDC or (2)

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Brian,

For a single FDC the best thing I can think of is to connect the FDC to the 
underground supply. This way either riser could be shutdown for whatever reason 
and still function for the other riser. I hope your underground runs close to 
where he wants it on the building. It can connect to the underground anywhere 
after the backflow.

Monday, February 6, 2017, 10:31:10 AM, you wrote:


I’m working on a storage building that because of the way the building was 
built each “side” has its own Riser with its own FDC connection (picture a big 
horseshoe shape). The architect has requested that a single FDC be located on 
the corner of one of the building sides. Is it feasible to do this and tie the 
systems together via the FDC pipe or does each Riser still require its own FDC 
connection?
 
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935
 



-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile___
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Re: Check valves on Antifreeze loops

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Douglas,

I got this from the 2013 code in the front where it talks about the 
changes from the prior version: "The use of antifreeze in new NFPA 13 sprinkler 
systems is now prohibited unless the solution use has been listed and the 
listing indicates illustrates the inability for the solution to ignite."

From the information provided you are going to need an RPZ backflow 
between the antifreeze loop and the system. You have to have one to isolate it 
from a drinking water supply. RPZs are not allowed to be installed in a pit. 
Biggest problem of installing an RPZ as per Figure 7.6.3.3 is each time you 
have a surge in the system it is going to let excess pressure out of the 
antifreeze side and dilute the antifreeze solution.

Figure 7.6.3.1 gives a layout if you change the backflow outside to be 
above ground and put the PRZ out there.

Saturday, January 28, 2017, 1:43:41 AM, you wrote:


We have a building with 2 outside canopies, each is protected by an antifreeze 
loop.  The sprinkler system has a backflow in a pit.  Do each of  the 2 
antifreeze loops need a one way swing check valve, with a hole in the clapper? 
I will put a test port at each end of both loops, even though the loops are not 
150 gallons. 



-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile___
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Re: Tank Capacity

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Dale,

I recall using it back in 2006 on a project, I don't have my book here to find 
the section I used back then.

Friday, January 27, 2017, 3:11:32 PM, you wrote:


I agree, I’m just trying to find where it was allowed in earlier editions.
 
 
 

 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 1:59 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Tank Capacity
 
You are just using a "break tank" when you have automatic refill. 
 
If your demand is 1000 gpm for 60 min and your city supply can do 500 gpm, then 
you just store 500 gpm for 60 min. 
 
I'm out on the road so I can't look up the exact reference. But the good thing 
is you don't need crazy formulae with a hundred exponents to figure this out. 
It's just simple math. 
 
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook: 
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
 
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 27, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Dale Wingard <da...@aaafp.com> wrote:

NFPA 22 (2013 Edition) excerpt- 
 
4.1.4 A tank shall be sized so that the stored supply plus reliable automatic 
refill shall be sufficient to meet the demand placed upon it for the design 
duration.
 
I have researched earlier editions but I have not been able to find where the 
reliable automatic refill has been previously allowed; however, I recall this 
being the case.  Am I overlooking something?  
 
Thanks,
 
 

 



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-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile___
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Re: Deep Hole Saws

[Charles Thurston]

Hello 321,

I have an 18" 1/4" bit I make a pilot hole with.  I have an extension I put the 
mandrill in. Drill to the depth of the saw, take it out and clear the saw, 
drill more, repeat as needed till the hole is done. If you wander a bit through 
the insulation it does not matter.

Friday, October 7, 2016, 5:16:00 PM, you wrote:

> I am starting a Freezer/Cooler installation and looking for a hole saw that 
> will cut a 2.25" diameter hole 6" deep. I need it that deep with a matching 
> pilot drill/mandrel. The cooler panels are 6" thick and I am dropping Dry 
> Pendants from above. I prefer to do this in one step and not drill from both 
> sides.


> I have found on source on line ...but hoping to beat the price ($250 + ea).


> Any thoughts?


> Thanks 

>  


> John W. Farabee
> VP Fire Sprinkler Division
> Atlantic Realty and Building, LLC
> Jupiter, Fl
> 561-707-5150
> Florida License No.
> FPC16-000106




-- 
Best regards,
 Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com

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Re: Question for any member of Installation Sub-TC

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Steve,

I have hard copy for my main uses, Carry the PDFs on a thumb drive with me so 
if I really need to find something while I am out, Any computer will let me.

Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 9:41:02 AM, you wrote:

>   
>  
>  
> I'm still stubbornly analog and prefer to use the traditional hard copy. This 
> is a pretty good reason to take the PDF for a test drive I suppose. 

>   

>   
> Steve 

>   

>   
>  Original message ---- 
> From: Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com>  
> Date: 9/27/16 5:58 AM (GMT-08:00)  
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org  
> Subject: Re: Question for any member of Installation Sub-TC  

> 
> Hello Tom,
>  
>  I just did a search in the PDF for "Floor Control Valve Assemblies" I came 
> up in 8.4.2 as the only location on the whole phrase.
>  
>  Then a search on "Floor Control Valve" came up with : 
>  8.16.1.1.2.2 Floor control valves in high-rise buildings and
>  valves controlling flow to sprinklers in circulating closed loop
>  systems shall comply with 8.16.1.1.2.1(1) or 8.16.1.1.2.1(2).
>  
>  Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 7:53:21 AM, you wrote:
>  
>  
>  
 >> On Sep 26, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com> 
 >> wrote:
>  
 >> That’s my question – has it been rescinded?   Didn’t see it anywhere else 
 >> in the standard but figured it was worth a question …
 >>  
 >> SL
 >>  
 >> From: Sprinklerforum 
 >> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Joe 
 >> Burtell
 >> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 2:31 PM
 >> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 >> Subject: Re: Question for any member of Installation Sub-TC
 >>  
 >> 2016
 >>  
 >> 8.16.1.5* In-Rack Sprinkler System Control Valves.
 >> A.8.16.1.5 In-rack sprinklers and ceiling sprinklers selected for 
 >> protection should be con-
 >> trolled by at least two separate indicating valves and drains. In higher 
 >> rack arrangements, 
 >> consideration should be given to providing more than one in-rack control 
 >> valve in order to 
 >> limit the extent of any single impairment.
 >>  
 >> I would say, yes or it moved?
>  
>  
 >> Best regards,
>  
 >> Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS
>  
 >>  
>  
 >> 
>  
 >> PH: 406-652-7697
>  
 >> Fax: 406-652-7743 | Cell: 406-861-4507
>  
 >> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
>  
 >> Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com
>  
 >> NOTICE:  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended 
 >> only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail 
 >> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or 
 >> other information attached to it, may contain  confidential information 
 >> that is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this 
 >> e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it 
 >> to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, 
 >> dissemination,  distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or 
 >> any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly 
 >> prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please 
 >> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission  and destroy the 
 >> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or 
 >> saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
>  
 >>  
 >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com> 
 >> wrote:
 >> Was 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies (13, 2013 edition) completely 
 >> rescinded in 2016 edition?
 >>  
 >> 
 >>  
>  
 >> ___
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 >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 >>  
 >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>  
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 >>  
 >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>  
 >>  
>  
>  
>  
>  -- 
>  Best regards,
>   Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com
>  
>  ___
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> 



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Re: Question for any member of Installation Sub-TC

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Tom,

I just did a search in the PDF for "Floor Control Valve Assemblies" I came up 
in 8.4.2 as the only location on the whole phrase.

Then a search on "Floor Control Valve" came up with : 
8.16.1.1.2.2 Floor control valves in high-rise buildings and
valves controlling flow to sprinklers in circulating closed loop
systems shall comply with 8.16.1.1.2.1(1) or 8.16.1.1.2.1(2).

Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 7:53:21 AM, you wrote:



> On Sep 26, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Steve Leyton  wrote:

> That’s my question – has it been rescinded?   Didn’t see it anywhere else in 
> the standard but figured it was worth a question …
>  
> SL
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Joe Burtell
> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 2:31 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Re: Question for any member of Installation Sub-TC
>  
> 2016
>  
> 8.16.1.5* In-Rack Sprinkler System Control Valves.
> A.8.16.1.5 In-rack sprinklers and ceiling sprinklers selected for protection 
> should be con-
> trolled by at least two separate indicating valves and drains. In higher rack 
> arrangements, 
> consideration should be given to providing more than one in-rack control 
> valve in order to 
> limit the extent of any single impairment.
>  
> I would say, yes or it moved?


> Best regards,

> Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS

>  

> 

> PH: 406-652-7697

> Fax: 406-652-7743 | Cell: 406-861-4507

> Email: j...@burtellfire.com

> Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

> NOTICE:  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended 
> only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail 
> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or 
> other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that 
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> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original 
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> in any manner.  Thank you.

>  
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Steve Leyton  
> wrote:
> Was 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies (13, 2013 edition) completely 
> rescinded in 2016 edition?
>  
> 
>  

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>  



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Re: Nashville

[Charles Thurston]

Hello,

Had a WONDERFULL time, Learned a lot, GREAT Seminars, Thank You to all 
the instructors who taught them. Met several of the folks I only knew by name 
from the forum. If you have never been to one I do recommend you GO to one.

Wednesday, September 14, 2016, 2:07:28 PM, you wrote:

> Hello Sprinkler,

>   Made it for the convention. I'll be the one with the lost look and the "Old 
> Fart" hat.




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Nashville

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinkler,

  Made it for the convention. I'll be the one with the lost look and the "Old 
Fart" hat.

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Re: Provision for flushing CPVC

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Brad,

Then add the glue dry time after the flush for putting on a new cap to the job 
before you can put it back in service... Is that really cheaper then a groove 
cap?

Friday, August 26, 2016, 9:09:16 PM, you wrote:

> Friday all day Mark.
> 'in order to form a more perfect 13' I conclude that a hack saw will more 
> readily remove the fittings at the ends of all CPVC cross mains than whatever 
> it takes to do the same with steel, so, Bruce wins in the catagory of "most 
> economical" with his extra foot of pipe and glue cap entry :) thanks Bruce, 
> and everone else again.
>  On Aug 26, 2016 11:03 AM,   wrote:

>   
>  
>  
> We stopped using them 7 or 8 years ago based on the cost. I’m working from 
> memory on the cost each.  But it is Friday, right?
>  
>  
>  
> Mark at Aero
>  
> 602 820-7894
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Timothy Goins
>  Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 6:22 AM
>  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>  Subject: Re: Provision for flushing CPVC
>
>  
>  
>  
> I could sell you about three for that price. Check your pricing with your 
> vendor.
>  
>  Sent from my iPhone
>   
>  

>  On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:36 PM,   
> wrote:
>   
>  
>  
>  
> If you don't mind the cost the grooved adaptor does work, but they are 
> pricey. Around $60 with a grooved coupling and cap! ;-(
>  
>  Mark at Aero 
>  
>  
> 602 820-7894
>   
>  
>  
>   
>  
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>  

>  On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:57 PM, Brad Casterline  wrote:
>   
>  
>  
> If that comes in 2" also Timothy I gust might have this now thnx.
>  
>  
> On Aug 25, 2016 8:52 PM, "Timothy W Goins"  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
> 1½” grooved adapter with a grooved cap/plug works great.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei
>  Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 7:12 PM
>  To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>  Subject: Re: Provision for flushing CPVC
>
>  
>  
>  
> A extra foot of pipe, with glued on cap?
>   
>  

>  On Aug 25, 2016, at 16:50, Brad Casterline  wrote:
>   
>  
>  
> That might be a bingo right there Timothy, thanks!
>  
>  
> On Aug 25, 2016 6:47 PM, "Timothy Goins"  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
> You'd be surprised how much trash and debris gets into a system when the 
> utility company or a plumber is careless.
>  
>  Sent from my iPhone
>   
>  

>  On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:12 PM, rongreenman .  wrote:
>   
>  
>  
>  
> Why would you need to flush CPVC?
>   
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Brad Casterline  
> wrote:
>  
>  
>  
> Thanks Charles.
>  
>  
>  
> I'm just the stocklister at this point Scott :)
>  
>  
>  
> Brad
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  

>   
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Scott Futrell
>  Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:40 AM
>  To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>  Subject: RE: Provision for flushing CPVC
>   
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Replace them with steel…
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Scott
>  
>  
>  
> Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
>  
> Cell: (612) 759-5556
>   
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Brad Casterline
>  Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:26 AM
>  To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>  Subject: Provision for flushing CPVC
>
>  
>  
> Hello,
>  
>  
>  
> Can someone tell me the most economical way for providing for flushing 1.5" 
> and 2" CPVC mains please?
>  
>  
>  
> thanks,
>  
>  
>  
> Brad Casterline, NICET IV
>  
> Fire Protection Division
>  
>  
>  
> FSC, Inc.
>  
> P: 913-722-3473
>  
> bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
>  
> www.fsc-inc.com
>  
>  
>  
> Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment
>  
>  
>  

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>   

>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>   



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Re: Provision for flushing CPVC

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Brad,

Slip x Groove on the end with a groove coupling and groove plug is what I use.

Thursday, August 25, 2016, 10:25:41 AM, you wrote:

> Hello,

>  
>   
> Can someone tell me the most economical way for providing for flushing 1.5" 
> and 2" CPVC mains please?
>   
>  
>   
> thanks,
>   
>  
>   
> Brad Casterline, NICET IV
>   
> Fire Protection Division
>   
>  
>   
> FSC, Inc.
>   
> P: 913-722-3473
>   
> bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
>   
> www.fsc-inc.com
>   
>  
>   
> Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment
>   
>  
>   



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Re: Mechanical tees in new construction

[Charles Thurston]

Hello

Any welding on galvanized pipe burns off the galvanize, No amount of 
cold galv sprayed on after welding on an outlet can not cover the INSIDE of the 
pipe. Just made using Galv pipe worthless I.M.O. and that of several AHJs in 
the area. Anything we do with Galv is Mech Ts for outlets, We can spray the cut 
edges before putting on the T to better maintain the coating..

Thursday, August 18, 2016, 9:38:05 AM, you wrote:

> There is a grocery store chain here in Pennsltucky that doesn't allow welded 
> outlets. All outlets off of mains and branch-lines have to be made with 
> mechanical tees. It's in there specs.
>  
> Richard Mote
> Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
>   
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Brad Casterline 
> To: sprinklerforum 
> Sent: Wed, Aug 17, 2016 9:23 pm
> Subject: RE: Mechanical tees in new construction


>
>   
> You get all the best projects Steve!
>I'm calculating how far in the negative X and positive Z direction I got 
> to go, starting in Kansas, to help you 'oversee' the next installation of a 
> hillside oceanfront building. All we got here is that we can watch our dogs 
> run away from home for like a week. 
> ;) 
> On Aug 17, 2016 5:07 PM, "Steve Leyton"  wrote:
>   
> 
>
>
> I think it should be noted that galvanized piping is no longer considered a 
> best or (in some quarters) even a good practice.  We’ve seen a lot of 
> corrosion,  flaking and decomposition issues with wet and dry systems over 
> the years and QC industrywide has been spotty for a long time.  FM and even 
> the military have moved away from galvanized in favor of coatings or other 
> means and methods to protect piping subject  to corrosion.  I don’t think 
> it’s prudent to address the use of hole cut connections as “preferred” 
> practice when the material being connected to isn’t “preferred”.  Yes, 
> galvanized piping is still scheduled in Table 6.3.1.1 but I wouldn’t 
> recommend using  it unless the application has been vetted, all AHJ’s and 
> stakeholders specifically approve and there’s no other way to resolve 
> corrosion concerns.   We recently oversaw the installation of some galvanized 
> piping in exterior areas of a hillside oceanfront building  where the stepped 
> levels of the building made installing it nearly impossible and would require 
> a special scaffold setup just to maintain paint.  But that application was 
> all grooved and no holes were cut nor fittings welded anywhere along the 
> piping. 
>   
> SL 
>   
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Brad Casterline
>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 2:49 PM
>To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>Subject: RE: Mechanical tees in new construction 
>   
> Especially on galvanized pipe I would think mech tees for branch line 
> connection to main and 'snap-o-let' for sprk connection to line would be 
> preferred-- saves the grinding and sray-on galv for welded I believe. I think 
> the eq. length for mech tees are  consistent with 13, but the snap-o-let type 
> connetions are greater than what can be considered as included in the 
> original K-Factor for, say, the fitting the head is in. 
> Brad 
>
> On Aug 17, 2016 4:36 PM, "Steve Leyton"  wrote:   
>   
>
>
> Copy.   I’m in a different place now, and sometimes we have to program 
> standard practices with consideration  given for the lowest common 
> denominator.  65-70% of our clients are institutional/educational entities 
> and they’re all used to spending more to get the longest-lived buildings they 
> can possibly build.   So it’s not always about what saves money … 
>   
> SL 
>   
>
>
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Jeff Bridges
>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 2:29 PM
>To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>Subject: RE: Mechanical tees in new construction   
>   
> Last sentence….. nice save 
>   
>
> Jeff Bridges 
> JB Fire Protection Inc 
> (888) 523-4737 Fax (714) 578-0901 
> Fire Sprinklers Save Lives & Property 
> www.jbfireprotection.com 
>   
>  
>   
>
>
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 2:15 PM
>To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>Subject: RE: Mechanical tees in new construction   
>   
> It’s not codified, but for whatever it’s worth, here my unsolicited two 
> cents:  Our standard form  specification for new construction very clearly 
> states that hole-cut connections are not allowed unless there is an 
> extenuating circumstance.   (This includes performance 

Re: Resi Riser - Character set not allowed

[Charles Thurston]

Hello rongreenman,

I have seen this before on a large grid with a 20 year old alarm valve in it, 
Air trapped in the grid was the problem, Found a large section where the mains 
and branch lines had been raised over the drain, Had to run an Auxiliary Drain 
off the high part to vent air and then all was good.

Thursday, July 21, 2016, 1:55:39 PM, you wrote:

> I'm seeing a consensus here that the problem has to do with the cushioning 
> effect of air and that eliminating air inside the piping is a good idea. 

> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Mark Phillips  
> wrote:

>   
>  
>  
> Air Vent up High
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of rongreenman .
>  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 1:15 PM
>  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>  Subject: Resi Riser - Character set not allowed
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Anyone experienced this before? 
>  
>  
>  
>   
>  
> The original CSC version of the Tyco rest riser in four inch. 
>   
>  
>  
>   
>  
> http://tyco-fire.com/index_link.php?link=TFP962&_ga=1.123267982.464632162.1469119864
>   
>  
>  
>   
>  
> Flow throw the IT port and you can watch the lever in the flow switch move 
> and then, before alarming, move back to the static condition and essentially 
> reset the diaphragm timing. Watch it long enough and  listen to the flow and 
> you can identify the flows changing the pitch suggesting turbulence. After a 
> bit you can identify and  the tones and know when the paddle will move 
> (indicated by the lever) and when it will retreat back to what appears a low 
> flow situation. 
>   
>  
>  
>   
>  
> The flow switch works fine when flowing the main drain but not throw the test 
> orifice, although the technician asking me this question says it worked last 
> year. All I can figure is there are lots of corners  in solved and the flow 
> keeps going from a laminar to turbulent pattern and the paddle resets during 
> the turbulent period. It seems to me the flow switch and the test outlet are 
> too close together but this is the only one of these I've ever seen this 
> particular  problem occur on and it is a listed device that's been around for 
> a long time in both CSC and Tyco livery. 
>   
>  
>  
>   
>  
> I suggested the technician try the flow test again at a different time of day 
> and see what happens. That won't correct the problem but if it works it 
> suggests that the problem was due to a temporary condition  (maybe repeating) 
> of the water supply. 
>   
>  
>  
>   
>  
> Any other ideas?
>   
>  
>  
>   
> -- 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Ron Greenman
>  
>  

>  4110 Olson Dr., NW
>  Gig Harbor, WA 98335
>  
>  rongreen...@gmail.com
>  
>  253.576.9700
>   
>  
>  
>   
>  
> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, 
> inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
>   
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Re: Standpipe Test requirements

[Charles Thurston]

Hello John,

In this area when they ask for that, I have pointed out they need to supply the 
1st responding pumper truck for the test as trucks can be different and I know 
I will rent one that can provide 100 PSI to the top, BUT that does not mean 
THEIR pumper can. Always got them to supply the truck that way. I even had one 
that had to roll a tanker for the test and the standpipe took more water to 
fill than their truck could haul and hydrants in the area were of such poor 
pressure and flow.


Thursday, July 14, 2016, 4:53:46 PM, you wrote:

>  
>  
> Never. Sounds like something new to add to the list of exclusions.  

>   

>   

>   
>  

>   

>   John Irwin 
> Critical System Solutions Sprinkler Construction Manager  
> 813-618-2781  jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com 

>   

>   
> Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and 
> punctuation gaffes.  
>  
>   Original message 
>  From: Jerry Van Kolken  
>  Date: 7/14/16 4:50 PM (GMT-05:00) 
>  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>  Subject: Standpipe Test requirements 
>  
>  
>  
>  
> We have an AHJ that is asking us the contractor to provide a fire truck for 
> testing the 100psi at the top of a manual standpipe. We would like to ask if 
> it is the responsibility of the contractor to provide a pumper for the 
> standpipe or  what experience anyone has had in the past dealing with this 
> type of situation in the past. And if there would be any code reference for 
> this test?
>  
>  
>  
> Jerry Van Kolken
>  
> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
>  
> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
>  
> Oceanside, CA 92058
>  
> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>  
>  
> 



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Re: Heat tracing

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Scott,

From the manual for this.


XL-Trace Heat-Tracing System provides
many benefits for freeze protection of
fire suppression piping.
• Eliminates complicated dry system control valves
• Provides one simple system throughout a building
• Simplifies future building expansion
• Allows faster response time for freezing applications
• Eliminates the pipe corrosion associated with dry systems
• Prevents frozen condensate in freezer pendant sprinklers
• Is compatible with metal or plastic pipe systems

Tuesday, June 21, 2016, 9:49:48 AM, you wrote:

>   
>  
>  
> Hey,
>  
>  
>  
> Anyone aware of ‘listed’ heat tracing for CPVC?
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Scott
>  
>  
>  
> Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
>  
> Cell: (612) 759-5556
>   
>  
>



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Re: Exhausters

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Ed,

That is after about the 2 min it takes the riser to trip.

Thursday, June 16, 2016, 2:43:03 PM, you wrote:

> "Get solid flow after about 2 min and for about 45 seconds to 1.5 min then it 
> goes to sputtering and then you get solid waterflow."
> Does this conflict with your initial statement?  " Water delivery is 4-5 
> minutes to the inspectors test."



> Possibly there is some water trapped in the piping in the building in which 
> the ITV is located. 


> I wonder too if the vane in the WFI might have blown off and is resting 
> somewhere downstream.




> Ed



>  
>  
>  
>  --
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>   Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com
>  
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Re: Exhausters

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Ed,

Get solid flow after about 2 min and for about 45 seconds to 1.5 min then it 
goes to sputtering and then you get solid waterflow.

Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:38:37 AM, you wrote:

> I had a similar sprinkler system layout, but the underground was about twice 
> as long long.  The water delivery time was well within the requirements.  The 
> water in the underground reduces the amount of air in the system, My bet is 
> that the water in the underground would reduce the water delivery time, 
> rather than increase it.


>  When water does get to the inspectors test does the stream appear to be 
> obstructed? I wonder what a pressure gage at the ITV would read when water is 
> flowing.

> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 6:37 AM, Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com> wrote:

> Hello Sprinklerforum,
>  
>I am sure this topic has been exhausted in the past, but I did not find a 
> definitive answer anywhere. Does anybody still make an exhauster for Dry 
> Sprinkler systems. We are having issues whit a system installed many years 
> ago. Water delivery is 4-5 minutes to the inspectors test.
>  
>  System starts out in building A as a 6" runs across the building feeding 
> sprinklers in it, Then drops 12 feet to go underground 25 feet to building B 
> and comes back up. This pipe underground is holding water. Open Inspectors 
> test and it is 2 minutes before you start to see the sir gauge at the riser 
> start to drop. We have written it up on inspections for years as too long of 
> a trip time and the AHJ never said anything to our customer so they would get 
> it fixed. NOW the AHJ will not let a remolded store open because the trip 
> time is too long. The AHJ also "insisted" they install a waterflow switch for 
> this space, NOW it had a Vane type switch on the dry pipe.
>  
>  --
>  Best regards,
>   Charles  mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com
>  
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Re: Exhausters

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Bill,

We know that is an issue, They will have to install a vault in the walkway 
space between the building to put a drain into to fix that.

Thursday, June 16, 2016, 10:05:15 AM, you wrote:

> The problem may be the auxiliary underground not be drained, I have seen dry 
> systems not fully drained taking considerably longer to trip than when it was 
> fully drained. The trapped water may be delaying the trip time of the dry 
> valve. 
> Bill Cunningham



> Sent from my iPhone

>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 6:37 AM, Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com> wrote:

>> Hello Sprinklerforum,

>>  I am sure this topic has been exhausted in the past, but I did not find a 
>> definitive answer anywhere. Does anybody still make an exhauster for Dry 
>> Sprinkler systems. We are having issues whit a system installed many years 
>> ago. Water delivery is 4-5 minutes to the inspectors test.

>> System starts out in building A as a 6" runs across the building feeding 
>> sprinklers in it, Then drops 12 feet to go underground 25 feet to building B 
>> and comes back up. This pipe underground is holding water. Open Inspectors 
>> test and it is 2 minutes before you start to see the sir gauge at the riser 
>> start to drop. We have written it up on inspections for years as too long of 
>> a trip time and the AHJ never said anything to our customer so they would 
>> get it fixed. NOW the AHJ will not let a remolded store open because the 
>> trip time is too long. The AHJ also "insisted" they install a waterflow 
>> switch for this space, NOW it had a Vane type switch on the dry pipe.

>> -- 
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>> Charles  mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com

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Exhausters

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

  I am sure this topic has been exhausted in the past, but I did not find a 
definitive answer anywhere. Does anybody still make an exhauster for Dry 
Sprinkler systems. We are having issues whit a system installed many years ago. 
Water delivery is 4-5 minutes to the inspectors test.

System starts out in building A as a 6" runs across the building feeding 
sprinklers in it, Then drops 12 feet to go underground 25 feet to building B 
and comes back up. This pipe underground is holding water. Open Inspectors test 
and it is 2 minutes before you start to see the sir gauge at the riser start to 
drop. We have written it up on inspections for years as too long of a trip time 
and the AHJ never said anything to our customer so they would get it fixed. NOW 
the AHJ will not let a remolded store open because the trip time is too long. 
The AHJ also "insisted" they install a waterflow switch for this space, NOW it 
had a Vane type switch on the dry pipe.

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Re: Tyco Dry Pipe Valve

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Bruce,

No that comes off above the seat.

Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 6:11:04 PM, you wrote:

> Is the low air switch affected by this design?




> On May 18, 2016, at 13:46, rongreenman . <rongreen...@gmail.com> wrote:


> Curiouser and curiouser. I'm currently doing piece of work in s large food 
> distribution center. There's a fitter along to play with the toys and all I 
> do..., well, let's just say not too much. 


> I mentioned this discussion to him and he nodded with that  " Ifeel you 
> brother" look and said they're clogged a lot. 

> On Wednesday, May 18, 2016, Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com> wrote:

> Hello rongreenman,
>  
>  Nope it is in the casting for the body.
>  
>  Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 12:38:06 AM, you wrote:
>  
 >> So not the Tee, Charles?
>  
>  
>  
 >> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com> 
 >> wrote:
>  
 >> Hello rongreenman,

 >>  The restriction is in the casting for the body of the valve. I have seen 
 >> it and warned my guys to be very careful cleaning the seats.

 >>  Tuesday, May 17, 2016, 9:38:12 PM, you wrote:

  >>> I'm surprised that something this unusual isn't even listed as a special 
part on the cut sheets. They just say ¾" x whatever x whatever. Purpose of the 
restriction?


  >>> Talk to Tyco.

  >>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Scott Futrell <sco...@ffcdi.com> wrote:

>  
>  
>  
  >>> Ron,
>  
>  
>  
  >>> Nope, it’s designed that way. I’ve asked fitters to look, and I’ve looked 
at new ones off the truck. That’s the way it comes. Data sheet doesn’t show it, 
or say anything  about it.
>  
>  
>  
  >>> Nope.
>  
>  
>  
  >>> I’m thinking most don’t realize this, and most don’t realize wiping off 
the seat pushes the gunk into the slot that leads to the two holes.
>  
>  
>  
  >>> Scott
>  
>  
>  
  >>> Office: (763) 425-1001 x 202
>  
  >>> Cell: (612) 759-5556
>  
>  
>  
  >>> From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
rongreenman .
  >>>  Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 8:31 PM
  >>>  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  >>>  Subject: Re: Tyco Dry Pipe Valve
>  
>  
>  
>  
  >>> Maybe just a bad casting. Nothing about that in the cut sheet and that 
would be some neon flashing sign if there was a special tee in the alarm line.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
  >>> Have you talked to Tyco?
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
  >>> As an example of this Viking has special ball drips that work only on 
designated valve trims. One that will not work with a DPV may be for a deluge 
valve.The info for this is glaring when you actually go looking for it. 
http://www.vikinggroupinc.com/databook/checkvalves/062289.pdf
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
  >>> ___
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  >>>  
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>  








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 >>   Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com

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 >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  --
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>   Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com
>  
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Re: Tyco Dry Pipe Valve

[Charles Thurston]

Hello rongreenman,

Nope it is in the casting for the body.

Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 12:38:06 AM, you wrote:

> So not the Tee, Charles?



> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com> wrote:

> Hello rongreenman,
>  
>  The restriction is in the casting for the body of the valve. I have seen it 
> and warned my guys to be very careful cleaning the seats.
>  
>  Tuesday, May 17, 2016, 9:38:12 PM, you wrote:
>  
 >> I'm surprised that something this unusual isn't even listed as a special 
 >> part on the cut sheets. They just say ¾" x whatever x whatever. Purpose of 
 >> the restriction?
>  
>  
 >> Talk to Tyco.
>  
 >> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Scott Futrell <sco...@ffcdi.com> wrote:
>  



 >> Ron,



 >> Nope, it’s designed that way. I’ve asked fitters to look, and I’ve looked 
 >> at new ones off the truck. That’s the way it comes. Data sheet doesn’t show 
 >> it, or say anything  about it.



 >> Nope.



 >> I’m thinking most don’t realize this, and most don’t realize wiping off the 
 >> seat pushes the gunk into the slot that leads to the two holes.



 >> Scott



 >> Office: (763) 425-1001 x 202

 >> Cell: (612) 759-5556



 >> From: Sprinklerforum 
 >> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 >> rongreenman .
 >>  Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 8:31 PM
 >>  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 >>  Subject: Re: Tyco Dry Pipe Valve




 >> Maybe just a bad casting. Nothing about that in the cut sheet and that 
 >> would be some neon flashing sign if there was a special tee in the alarm 
 >> line.





 >> Have you talked to Tyco?





 >> As an example of this Viking has special ball drips that work only on 
 >> designated valve trims. One that will not work with a DPV may be for a 
 >> deluge valve.The info for this is glaring when you actually go looking for 
 >> it. http://www.vikinggroupinc.com/databook/checkvalves/062289.pdf











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 >>  
 >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Best regards,
>   Charlesmailto:charl...@mbfsg.com
>  
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Re: Pre action pull station

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Todd,

Better question is WHY is an electrician installing something that is not 
electrical?


> > 2007 NFPA 13, 7.3.1.2 The automatic water control valve shall be provided
> > with hydraulic, pneumatic, or mechanical manual means for
> > operation that is independent of detection devices and of the
> > sprinklers.

Monday, May 9, 2016, 5:04:55 PM, you wrote:

> It is interesting that an electrician is by default the one
> selecting the best location for a device that is only intended to be
> used during a fire. And only when the integrated system has failed,
> and fire has been burning for some time prior to FD arrival. 


> So expect that smoke is accumulating in the building. Can FF's
> safely get to activating device, and recognize it once there?


> This assume the FD is trained well enough to recognize the
> situation and understand manually activating system will almost
> always be the highest suppression (water application) activity. 


> Are there facilities that also have it in their fire watch plan to
> activate system when they know detection system is down?


> Does having a Journeyman A electrical card make you the best person to choose 
> location?


> Bruce Verhei

> On May 9, 2016, at 13:18, Todd Williams  wrote:


> The electrician installed it at the riser and the client  asked if this was 
> correct.


> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire  Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington,  CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-608-4559  (cell)

> Sent using CloudMagic

> On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 3:46  PM, rongreenman . 
>  wrote:

> Typically a valve at the rider. Are you looking for the manual  release for
> a particular riser or a rule as to where it has to  be?

> On Monday, May 9, 2016, Todd Williams   wrote:

>> ANy information on  location?

>> Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection  Design/Consulting Stonington, CT
>> 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559  (cell)
>> Sent using CloudMagic [
>>  https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2]
>>  On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 3:13 PM, rongreenman .  
>> wrote:
>> Typically they're part  of the listed trim package.

>> On Monday, May 9, 2016,   wrote:

>> > 2007 NFPA 13,  7.3.1.2 The automatic water control valve shall be provided
>> >  with hydraulic, pneumatic, or mechanical manual means for
>> >  operation that is independent of detection devices and of the
>> >  sprinklers.
>> >
>> >
>> > Craig L. Prahl
>>  > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
>> > CH2M
>> > 200  Verdae Blvd.
>> > Greenville, SC 29607
>> > Direct -  864.920.7540
>> > Fax - 864.920.7129
>> > CH2MHILL  Extension 77540
>> > craig.pr...@ch2m.com  
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  -Original Message-
>> > From: Sprinklerforum  [mailto:
>> > sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org  ] On Behalf
>> > Of Todd Williams
>> >  Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 2:33 PM
>> > To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>> >  Subject: Pre action pull station
>> >
>> > I'm looking for  guidelines for manual pull stations on pre-action
>> systems.
>>  > Any idea where they are?
>> >
>> > Todd G Williams, PE  Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT
>> > 860-535-2080  (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
>> > Sent using CloudMagic
>> >  [
>> >
>>  
>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Kt0u0GJLzxwwb7MCDiEPqnzAIXRuh45mBuCy231KCQjUADAmsbstorfcS2u3cmf6VWoWnAPNKp1CfWgx57bhXLRwziiio3szpVlEoirXjlRlaErxlmvOu9DRsancbU-wiLuZyxJzb9c-_ux8HhslMBhQAOxR32puEEiFLLjijqv9fIICy_QU3maQJSPCR-iLU5CnzUTUvoxXYCJxJwTjbzkG_0V3gb-9cVyCd-xzc-L8H0xmaKv7fbQWffYiW3G6xSDLbfEVTL3ngXgWNMUiUUNOy2UamgyBurOD7v2Wt9I-zYfsXH7PVWqALSfRsvE3Rf_lEI6FNrK4RvyxIQd0B8-EQlft0ObsBsbh3PfyC9LvGZtVQnopiXWExly-erED5q-PLKR67YG4Se_JKujfY-IlabVTdjbDhH2DKOjWuzUFHnWAYGtth_N5_OKKm0kwtOJsCCikyFoSnFz1Cgak_Q/https%3A%2F%2Fcloudmagic.com%2Fk%2Fd%2Fmailapp%3Fct%3Dti%26cv%3D6.0.64%26pv%3D8.2%5D
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Re: "HotBox" cost

[Charles Thurston]

Hello 

You can get insulated blankets made for that to fit a 6" backflow for 
$500.00 to $700.00 or you can get a metal, heated, box for $8,000.00 and up. I 
priced a box last week with a "major" brand name on it that was 11K MY cost, 
Plus shipping, Plus the pad to install it on, Plus the electrical to it, Plus 
the installation of it.

Tuesday, March 29, 2016, 4:08:02 PM, you wrote:

> How large a box do you need?

> ~internal dimensions?



>> On Mar 29, 2016, at 12:28,   
>> wrote:

>> Hi All,
>> I have a question from a customer that is completely outside my area of 
>> competence, so here goes, Does anyone know the installed cost of a "hotbox" 
>> enclosure for an above ground RPZ backflow device?
>> Thanks
>> Mark at Aero
>> 602 820-7894
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Re: UG 5 ft outside building

[Charles Thurston]

Hello 

We do it both ways. 95% of the time when my contract calls for me to go 
5' out, I sub the stub installation to the site UG sub. I do note in my quotes 
my work starts 1' AFF if it is not clear in the bidding docs.

Tuesday, March 29, 2016, 4:26:51 PM, you wrote:

> We never do it.

> Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
> Sales Engineer 
> Alliance Fire Protection 
> 130 w 9th Ave.
> North Kansas City, MO 64116

> *Licensed in KS & MO 
>  
> 913.888.0647 ph 
> 913.888.0618 f 
> 913.526.7443 cell 
> www. AFPsprink.com 
>  


> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd 
> Williams
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 3:00 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: UG 5 ft outside building

> Is there a rational explanation why the sprinkler contractor should
> bring in the last piece of underground from 5 ft outside the building?

> Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
> Sent using CloudMagic
> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2]
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Re: Shooting Range

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Craig,

IF there is a ceiling with space above. This actually this would be a good 
application for Aspirating Smoke Detection. All you would have on the ceiling 
is a small round circle.

Monday, March 7, 2016, 8:26:55 AM, you wrote:

> I had one where the saw tooth roof system was used, it was actually
> baffles for sound but sprinklers and lines were run behind them.

> The other option which may or may not work is to invoke the
> Sprinkler Exemption section out of the IBC.  As much as we like to
> see buildings fully protected, there are cases where is impractical
> or at times creates a much greater hazard than a fire would.  (yes
> I've had a project where a fire in the building caused less monetary
> damage than sprinkler discharge on the process equipment)

> So If you apply Exemptions (2) and (4) out of IBC 903.3.1.1.1 (using the 2012 
> edition here)

> IBC 2012 903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations. Automatic sprinklers shall
> not be required in the following rooms or areas where such rooms or
> areas are protected with an approved automatic fire detection system
> in accordance with Section 907.2 that will respond to visible or
> invisible particles of combustion. Sprinklers shall not be omitted
> from any room merely because it is damp, of fire-resistance-rated
> construction or contains electrical equipment.

> 2. Any room or space where sprinklers are considered undesirable
> because of the nature of the contents, when approved by the fire code 
> official.

> 4. Rooms or areas that are of noncombustible construction with wholly 
> noncombustible contents.

> Now of course there is a trade out of smoke detection for
> sprinklers which in a gun range isn't going to work either.  There
> is no real justification for sprinklers in the range areas, maybe at
> the trap end and maybe at the staging end but down the lanes, there is none.

> But if the AHJ insists on sprinklers then the owner or GC needs to
> provide some means of protecting the piping and the sprinklers
> otherwise SIPA or DIPA with dry pilot heads not smoke detection for
> the trigger is probably going to be the only viable choice.  

> Craig L. Prahl 
> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
> CH2MHILL
> Lockwood Greene
> 1500 International Drive
> Spartanburg, SC  29303
> Direct - 864.599.4102
> Fax - 864.599.8439
> CH2MHILL Extension  74102
> craig.pr...@ch2m.com



> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
> Hill
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Shooting Range

> I have put sprinklers in several shooting ranges (Government made me do it).
> They were all double interlock preaction systems with piping run
> above the steel roof/ceiling of the range. They all used concealed type 
> sprinklers.
> One of the ranges utilized a saw tooth ceiling/roof to protect the heads.
> Two of the systems have been hit and put into trouble (including
> the saw tooth one - hit by a ricochet). Luckily no water has been
> released. I know one system that has been hit several times and the
> building has turned the system off.

> Mike Hill

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Jay Stough
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 12:43 PM
> To: Sprinkler Forum 
> Subject: Shooting Range

> I am looking for guidance on designing sprinklers in a shooting range.
> Something about little glass bulbs or solder links in an area that
> has high velocity projectiles, seems not right.  Everything in each
> alley (including the separation walls) are non-combustible.  The
> only thing combustible at the end of the range is shredded rubber
> used to absorb the impact after the target.  The rubber is treated
> with flame retardant and replaced every three months.  Each alley
> has a series of baffles below the roof that are at a 45 degree angle
> for sound.  The designer of the facility has done many of these
> without sprinklers in this area of the building.  He has even shot
> tracers to see how the flame retardant hold up and the flame goes out is less 
> than
> 20 seconds.  A fire marshal is saying to sprinkler everything.
>   If you have any insight, I am listening closely.

> *Jay Stough*
> NICET IV LAYOUT
> NICET III ITM
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Re: Piping of radiator discharge line

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Timothy,

Can you pipe it to the discharge side of the pressure relief valve?  I have 
never done one so don't recall if this is allowed or not.


Friday, March 4, 2016, 1:54:00 PM, you wrote:

> We have an 8" pressure relief valve and floor drain piped directly
> to storm, but apparently have not accounted for the radiator
> discharge line (either 1-1/2" or 2").  It currently blows out into
> the yard during their weekly tests.
> The Client says it can be piped to storm as well; but that they
> normally see, and would prefer to have this piped back into the main header.  
> What is usual practice?

> Feel free to contact me with any questions.
> Regards,

> Timothy Easter, P.E.
> Fire Protection Engineer
> Direct: (757) 383-6217
> timothy.eas...@aecom.com

> AECOM
> 11832 Rock Landing Drive Suite, 306, Newport News, Virginia 23606
> www.aecom.com



> This e-mail and any attachments contain AECOM confidential
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Re: Piping Through an Elevator Shaft

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Jerry,

Nope same as the shaft.

Friday, February 26, 2016, 8:25:12 PM, you wrote:

> What about the machine room? Can you run through those?

> Jerry Van Kolken
> Millennium Fire Protection
> (760) 722-2722

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Re: Piping Through an Elevator Shaft

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Jerry,

If it is covered under the ASME 17.1 elevator code, You can NOT do 
this. Anything that enters the elevator shaft(s) or machine room(s) must be for 
the elevator and Must dead end in that area.

Had an elevator inspector 8 years ago in a building that had been there 
20 years go in for an inspection on an elevator upgrade, Shut down ALL the 
elevators due to a sprinkler pipe that entered the machine room and went back 
out to a boiler room behind the machine room.  Was a LONG walk up 20 stories to 
cut the pipe feeding the machine room and plug it to get the elevators back 
running.
Friday, February 26, 2016, 7:08:08 PM, you wrote:

> I have a building where they don't like to consider paths for piping to run.
> The lowest level of the building is cut in half by the elevator pit and I
> need to supply some rooms on the other side. Are there building / elevator
> any regulations that would keep me from running through the pit to feed the
> other half of the floor?  

>  

> No elevator contractor on the job yet.

>  

> Jerry Van Kolken

> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.

> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.

> Oceanside, CA 92058

> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

>  

> We Have Moved Please update your records with the new address

>  

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Re: Combustible concealed space

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Dewayne,

We had to sprinkler the wood roofs put on some coolers outside the building 
back in 2007. They had to make an access panel in the end to allow us in to run 
the piping for the coolers and attic heads in the space. I do not remember the 
code sited by the state LLR reviewer. Said the coolers would not need 
sprinklers if they had not put on the wood framed roofs.

Thursday, February 11, 2016, 6:27:33 PM, you wrote:

> Thanks Jim,
> I had a dry system figured but the owner was questioning why he would need
> one since there is no access and it is separated from the building by the
> precast plank.  The only reason it is there is to hide the RTU's from the
> road.  I didn't have a good answer for him.  Seems like a waste to install
> sprinklers in this space.

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Jim Davidson
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 5:11 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Combustible concealed space

> Dewayne,

> If I remember correctly placing a wood frame roof structure on top of a
> precast concrete structure changes the ISO building construction
> classification from Class 5 (modified fire-resistive construction) or Class
> 6 (fire-resistive construction) to Class 2 (joisted masonry) which can
> change the property insurance rate to a higher rate all thing being equal.

> This can also change the ISO and or IFC "Needed Fire Flow" requirements you
> only have a concrete deck under the combustible roof.

> NFPA 13 would require this combustible concealed space to be sprinklered.
> The IBC would define the wood roof as part of the building since the wood
> roof is within the vertical plane  of the exterior walls, or the building is
> within the projection of the vertical plane the edges of the roof to the
> grade.

> Good luck with the problem.

> Regards

> Jim

> DAVIDSON ASSOCIATES

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> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 7:01 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Combustible concealed space

> NFPA 13 07ed

> We have an existing building that has precast plank roof with an combustible
> architectural “add on” on top to mimic a pitched roof to make it look better
> from the road.  There is nothing inside of this space and it has no access.
> Does it need to be sprinkled?

> Thanks,

> Dewayne
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Re: Roof dormer sprinklers?

[Charles Thurston]

Hello

I do it too. Seems that plywood is combustible. I have never seen one 
without a hole cut into the attic.


Friday, January 22, 2016, 8:28:34 AM, you wrote:

> I always do it if it is a combustible concealed space

> Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 
> 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
> Sent using CloudMagic 
> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2]
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 8:24 AM,
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>  wrote:
> I have an attic with decorative roof dormers built above the roof and 
> separated
>  from the attic space below by plywood sheathing. Do I need to poke heads
> up into
> the dormers? I have been doing this in the past, but now am wondering if it
> is
> necessary.



> Bill Menster
> WFM Consulting Inc.


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Re: CPVC pipe in steel studs

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Dewayne,

Be careful of the oil or coatings on the studs. Getting it on hands or tools 
and then on the pipe.

Tuesday, January 19, 2016, 1:59:35 PM, you wrote:

> This is a small area so we would only need to pass through 18 studs with 1
> 1/4" pipe so I was going to use the Tolco Fig24 on each stud.
> Otherwise I have found nothing but a insulation sleeve for copper pipe that
> would work.

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Matthew J Willis
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 10:01 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: CPVC pipe in steel studs

> You going to "fix" each in place?

> R/
> Matt

> Matthew J. Willis
> Project Manager
> Rapid Fire Protection Inc.
> *NEW ADDRESS*
> 1530 Samco Road
> Rapid City, SD 57702
> Office-605.348.2342
> Direct Line-605.593.5063
> Cell-605.391.2733
> Fax:-605.348.0108




> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 8:44 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: CPVC pipe in steel studs

> Would a side mount strap like Tolco Figure 24 qualify to protect the pipe?
> It states that "The flared edge design protects the CPVC pipe from any rough
> surface."

> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Taylor Schumacher
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 3:16 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: CPVC pipe in steel studs

> I've used Erico ESGFP (Easy Snap Grommet for Fire Protection) in the past.
> Not sure how large you are trying to go, but they work for 1" CPVC

> TAYLOR SCHUMACHER
> Security Fire Sprinkler
> P  320.656.0847  |  F  320.656.0312
> E  tay...@sfsprinkler.com



> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 2:08 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; 'SprinklerFORUM'
> Subject: RE: CPVC pipe in steel studs

> Had to deal with this recently.

> Copper B-line has a Grommet (BM1) I think Erico had one too. Copper B-line
> also has a Tape product for edges B-1999 ( if I remember correctly).

> Jerry Van Kolken
> Millennium Fire Protection
> (760) 722-2722


> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 11:47 AM
> To: SprinklerFORUM
> Subject: CPVC pipe in steel studs

> Do I need some type of pipe protection when running CPVC pipe through steel
> studs?  I thought about stud grommets but I can’t find any large enough.

> Thanks,

> Dewayne
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Re: Gauge calibration

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Todd,

This is who we use:

Gage-IT Inc.
94 N. Branch Street
Sellersville, PA 18960
phone 215-453-8611 and fax 215-453-8770.

Good service and turnaround time.

Thursday, January 14, 2016, 3:17:52 PM, you wrote:

> Any good recommendations on a place to have gauges calibrated?

> Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 
> 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
> Sent using CloudMagic 
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Re: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Rahe,

Works good when the car is at the bottom of the shaft.

Friday, December 25, 2015, 7:11:21 AM, you wrote:

> Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about sidewalls at the
> bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling?



> *Success Through Code Compliance*

> *Rahe Loftin, PE  *
> *Regional Fire Protection Engineer*
> *General Services Administration*
> *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA*
> *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC*
> *c - 817-371-3102*
> *o - 817-978-7299*

> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Brad Casterline 
> wrote:

>> A few more things Sean then I'll be able to sleep-
>> 1) you're welcome
>> 2) you have put a lot of good thought into this, and thank you for
>> prompting the ponderance
>> 3) distinct sidewalls back-to-back in the middle of a space without a
>> baffle or beam to prevent cold soldering is a no go I realize now, but with
>> a baffle or beam the head on the opposite side of the ignition point might
>> not activate due to the way the ceiling jet hits the beam, goes under it,
>> and comes back up the other side-- the opposite side spinkler, being above
>> the bottom and close to the side of the beam leaves it in a "slow and cold
>> pocket".
>> The best thing would be a Tyco type back to back attic head, (2 sidewalls
>> with one element) but they would have to bend both deflectors up to work
>> with a flat ceiling :) unless the ceiling height was up there a ways.
>> 4) seems like you guys there at Aero are really on the ball!!!-- prime
>> candidates for some serious fire modeling.  .  .

>> wbr, Brad
>> On Dec 22, 2015 5:05 PM, "Brad Casterline"  wrote:

>> > *coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to
>> > enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to
>> trim
>> > threads when at home using my phone.
>> > On Dec 22, 2015 4:48 PM, "Brad Casterline" 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation.
>> >> I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though
>> >> because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether
>> the
>> >> door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the
>> 'exposed
>> >> sidewall'. Not so with one compliment.
>> >> If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would
>> >> advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive,
>> >> course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for
>> >> water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the
>> >> velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is
>> >> based on temp AND velocity.
>> >>
>> >> I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a
>> >> little early today-
>> >> I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the
>> >> link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life
>> >> application to using a sideWALL  essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :)
>> >>
>> >> B-rad
>> >> On Dec 22, 2015 11:54 AM,  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Thank you Richard and Brad.
>> >>>
>> >>> These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for.  Up to this
>> >>> point we had only used them under garage doors.  But like Duane
>> brought up,
>> >>> we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be
>> >>> expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be
>> installed in
>> >>> "exposed" scenarios.  Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks"
>> by
>> >>> the committee if no other testing has been done.
>> >>>
>> >>> Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector
>> >>> accordingly off the "wall".  What are the other defining
>> characteristics of
>> >>> this "wall"?  How deep is it?  How long does it have to be?  As far as
>> I
>> >>> know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3.  You may laugh and think I am
>> going
>> >>> too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states
>> the
>> >>> following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall
>> sprinklers
>> >>> are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam".
>> Since
>> >>> they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation,
>> can
>> >>> I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to
>> >>> ceiling.  From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from
>> (6)
>> >>> different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses".
>> >>> First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3)
>> have
>> >>> their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the
>> most
>> >>> preferred but probably won't be
>> >>>  accepted.
>> >>>
>> >>> (1) Build a wall.
>> >>> (2) Install a beam.
>> >>> (3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6.  A sidewall can be
>> >>> installed in a "compartment", 

Re: Drum Drip Valve Guard

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Brad,

We have enough trouble in this area getting the maint. guy to drain the ones 
with 2 valves they can reach and a hand tight plug in the bottom. IF we get 3 
days below freezing and then a thaw, we will run 40-60 freeze break calls on 
the thaw day. 

That reminds me I need to place our annual order of 60- 1" valves.

Monday, December 14, 2015, 3:43:29 PM, you wrote:

> I still say we don't need two 1" globe valvles OR any 2" pipe to make a
> Drum Drip.
> How about a 1" globe at 7' AFF,  then 6' of 1" down to a 1x1/2 red. with a
> 1/2" fairly easily removed plug?
> In this way, most would-be tamperers would need a ladder and wrench, and
> honest workers could use the one valve and one plug to acomplish the same
> thing the picture of drum drips in 13 do.

> Brad
> On Dec 14, 2015 10:40 AM, "Jay Stough"  wrote:

>> AGF has a nice setup.  We recently installed one of their heated drum drips
>> where the installing contractor put the drum drip outside.  Go to:
>> http://www.testandrain.com/documents/products.html#collectandrain

>> *Jay Stough*
>> NICET IV LAYOUT
>> NICET III ITM

>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Gregory Lindholm 
>> wrote:

>> > Has anybody seen where I could get a guard that would keep people from
>> > tampering with drain valves I has seen something quite a few years ago,
>> but
>> > cannot find out where now.
>> > It does not matter if it attaches to the piping, then a lock installed on
>> > that, or some type of cage attached to a wall, then a door on that.
>> >
>> > Greg Lindholm
>> > ___
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>> >
>> >
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>> >
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Re: sprinkler pipe passing through electrical rooms

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Greg,

We have several locations around here where the electrical room "surrounds" the 
sprinkler room so pipes pass through them, Just have to be very careful where 
they go.  Elevator machine rooms is what I first thought when I saw your 
question.

Friday, October 30, 2015, 6:45:26 AM, you wrote:

> Am I mis-remembering that somewhere in some code - 13 or 70 - that there
> used to be a statement that dictated that the only sprinkler pipe allowed
> in an electrical room was the pipe feeding sprinklers in the room?

> Greg McGahan
> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 
> 1160 McKenzie Road
> Cantonment, FL 32533
> 850-937-1850
> fax 850-937-1852
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Sprinkler Head Testing

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

  Looking for a conses of how heads are picked to remove and send for testing. 
We have an AHJ that has been calling a floor an "area" for testing, Now that is 
being challenged by a property management co that claims it should be per:

3.6.4* Sprinkler System. For fire protection purposes, an integrated system of 
underground and overhead piping designed
in accordance with fire protection engineering standards. The installation 
includes at least one automatic water supply that
supplies one or more systems. The portion of the sprinkler system above ground 
is a network of specially sized or hydraulically
designed piping installed in a building, structure, or area, generally 
overhead, and to which sprinklers are attached
in a systematic pattern. Each system has a control valve located in the system 
riser or its supply piping. Each sprinkler system
includes a device for actuating an alarm when the system is in operation. The 
system is usually activated by heat from a fire
and discharges water over the fire area. [13, 2010]

They are claiming that an "Area" is everything off that standpipe riser.  Now 
if this is a high rise with floor controls off the standpipe, Does not each 
floor control make that floor a "system" or "Area" unto itself?

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Re: Sprinkler Head Testing

[Charles Thurston]

Hello All,

The AHJ has been calling an "Area" as a floor (this property manager did not 
agree), We have tested several buildings this way, Only 1 building had heads 
fail on 2 of the 5 floors. In that case we replaced all the heads on those 2 
floors. 90% of the heads we are testing in this area are outside on walkways 
open along one side. In that case there were 9 heads per floor.

In this area it is RARE for them to spend the money for repairs much less 
anything that does not "beautify" the property to increase the profit.

Monday, October 19, 2015, 1:50:59 PM, you wrote:

> I like Bens logic to a point. But if I were the AHJ and you had two heads
> fail in a 100k area rather than 2 fail in a 10k area I would be more
> inclined to consider the former as a less dangerous scenario since the
> latter suggests a tenfold higher failure rate. I'd be more inclined to
> demand complete and mediate replacement of all heads in a building with a
> 2/10k failure rate than a 2/100k rate. The former suggests a tenfold higher
> threat to life safety and I'd rest my case there. And I obviously invented
> the numbers to illustrate my point since we don't have real numbers to work
> with.

> On Monday, October 19, 2015, Ben Young <derblitzkrie...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Its something of a gamble, because if any one of the heads fail in an
>> 'area' all the heads in that area must be replaced.
>> So if your area is the entire building, if any one head fails, you must
>> replace them all.
>> If you segregate by floor, and only two of the floors have heads that fail,
>> you are only required to replace those floors (basically areas)

>> So if you cheap out and want to test less heads and make very large areas,
>> you may have to replace them all at the same time.


>> Benjamin Young

>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:50 AM, rongreenman . <rongreen...@gmail.com
>> <javascript:;>>
>> wrote:

>> > If I recall how it was explained to me, the testing concept, among other
>> > things, is to buy time. If you can prove the heads are in acceptable
>> > condition you can extend their usable life, but not in perpetuity. If the
>> > heads are still serviceable you get another year and so on up to X years
>> (I
>> > forget but I think 10). This gives the owner a better ability to manage
>> the
>> > change out. If I owned a high rise I'd have started changing them out
>> > earlier than the due date and come up with a plan acceptable to the FM to
>> > stretch the cost out over several years. Failing to be proactive before
>> the
>> > expiration date, and hopefully finding that the heads were still
>> > serviceable after the testing means I have a good start on replacement
>> and
>> > would immediately try to cut a deal with the AHJ to amortize the cost.
>> > Maybe 20% per year for five years in exchange for no more tests.
>> >
>> > And my opinion to your original question is that the property manager is
>> > right, at least in this case. Unless there is some change in occupancy in
>> > this high rise that would make one floor more likely to be impacted than
>> > another. Perhaps a parking garage if it's by the sea or some other
>> > potentially corrosive atmosphere. But otherwise what value is there in
>> > having a full sampling from each floor? Why would the 12th floor of an
>> > office building have more or less impact on the viability of the heads
>> > installed there than say the 14th floor, or the 2nd, or the 23rd, or...?
>> > But of course I may be missing something here.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Charles Thurston <charl...@mbfsg.com
>> <javascript:;>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello Sprinklerforum,
>> > >
>> > >   Looking for a conses of how heads are picked to remove and send for
>> > > testing. We have an AHJ that has been calling a floor an "area" for
>> > > testing, Now that is being challenged by a property management co that
>> > > claims it should be per:
>> > >
>> > > 3.6.4* Sprinkler System. For fire protection purposes, an integrated
>> > > system of underground and overhead piping designed
>> > > in accordance with fire protection engineering standards. The
>> > installation
>> > > includes at least one automatic water supply that
>> > > supplies one or more systems. The portion of the sprinkler system above
>> > > ground is a network of specially sized or hydraulically
>> > > designed piping installed in a bui

Re: concealed residential sprinklers in beams

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Rocci,

A false beam installed below the solid ceiling will stop the airflow that would 
normally go into the attic space during a fire. That airflow is critical for 
the concealed head to operate.

Friday, October 9, 2015, 11:52:13 AM, you wrote:

> Does anyone have any knowledge on installing concealed pendent sprinklers in
> false beams? The Reliable cut sheet (bulletin 006 Rev I) for RFC43 says “top
> of deflector to ceiling installed in beams ½” to 1”. Now the residential
> sprinkler design guide (bulletin 140 Rev K)  specifically says “RFC
> concealed sprinklers cannot be installed in structural or false beams that
> impede the flow of air through the vent holes into the space above.”  I’m
> not exactly sure what would impede the flow???

>  

> The Tyco cut sheet  only says the deflector to ceiling for concealed heads
> installed in beams  7/8” to 1 1/8” below bottom of beam. When I called Tyco
> all the guy said was, from the way we understand it you can install them in
> beams and just follow NFPA sprinkler deflector criteria…….he didn’t sound
> very convincing and I’m just all around confused, I do very little
> residential project so I’m not as familiar and up to date on all things
> residential.   Any information would be helpful. 

>  

> Thank You  

>  

> Rocci Cetani III, CET

> Lead Designer

> Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III

>  

> Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc.

> 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A

> Morgan Hill, CA 93037

> P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111

> F-(408) 776-1590

>  

>  

> roc...@norcalfire.com

> www.norcalfire.com  

>  

> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may
> contain confidential information 

> belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of
> individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or
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Re: Riser tags

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Joe,

We tag them at install after the acceptance inspection. I look at it as that 
really is the first system inspection so we tag em. Gives you a reference for 
the next inspection in a year.

Monday, October 5, 2015, 5:37:04 PM, you wrote:

> This is a rather simple question.

> When a system is initially installed as part of construction:
> Are there any tags that are placed upon the risers to show that they have
> been approved
>  OR
> do these only get added after the inspections after the first year.
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Re: Test and Drain

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Travis,

I was thinking the same thing. Just wanted to get a kind of confirmation there 
was not a 4.9 out there I had missed.

Thank You

Friday, July 31, 2015, 11:47:39 AM, you wrote:

 We just use the 4.2k test orifice.

 *8.17.4.2.1 *An alarm test connection not less than 1 in.
 (25 mm) in diameter, terminating in a smooth bore corrosion resistant 
 orifice, giving a flow equal to or less than one sprinkler of a type 
 having the smallest K-factor installed on the particular system, shall
 be provided to test each waterflow alarm device for each system.

 Since the 4.2k test orifice will give a flow equal to or less than one
 sprinkler of the smallest K-factor, that should be good.

 Travis Mack, SET
 MFP Design, LLC
 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
 Gilbert, AZ 85298
 480-505-9271
 fax: 866-430-6107
 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

 http://www.mfpdesign.com
 https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

 On 7/31/2015 8:44 AM, Charles Thurston wrote:
 Hello Sprinklerforum,

 I have a project with a bunch of 4.9K Heads, Looking for a pre-made Test 
 and Drain Valve with pressure relief to use. All I am finding is for 4.2K 
 and 5.6K heads. The listed sizes translates to 14/32 and 16/32 sizes.  
 WHat has everyone been using for a 4.9K or 15/32 size test and drain? Is 
 the only option to build my own?


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Test and Drain

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

   I have a project with a bunch of 4.9K Heads, Looking for a pre-made Test and 
Drain Valve with pressure relief to use. All I am finding is for 4.2K and 5.6K 
heads. The listed sizes translates to 14/32 and 16/32 sizes.  WHat has 
everyone been using for a 4.9K or 15/32 size test and drain? Is the only 
option to build my own?

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Re: open space under concrete building

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Greg,

Protect it. We have many of those in this area and have to sprinkler those 
areas.

Tuesday, June 23, 2015, 10:42:31 AM, you wrote:

 Yes and yes...


 Greg McGahan
 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 fax 850-937-1852

 On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 9:17 AM, J. Scott Mitchell, PE jsm...@cableone.net
 wrote:



 Is it accessible? Could it possibly be used for storage?
 J. Scott Mitchell, PE
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

  Original message 
 From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com
 Date: 06/23/2015  9:01 AM  (GMT-06:00)
 To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: open space under concrete building

 I have an architect asking if protection is required under a high rise
 building  - noncombustible, if they raise the first occupied floor up so
 that the ground floor is open underneath. There will be nothing
 obstructing the view from one side to the other except the stairwells and
 elev shaft basically.

 I cannot find anything excludes protectionam I missing it?

 Thanks,


 Greg McGahan
 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 fax 850-937-1852
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Re: Insulation of pipe in attics

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Jeff,

Hard to do in an assisted living facility, Gotta have wet pipes to get the 
water to the rooms.

Thursday, June 4, 2015, 1:38:40 PM, you wrote:

 Don't we know it.  The details and longevity is critical.  Best to
 avoid the areas subject to freezing.
 Jeff Feid

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Scott A 
 Futrell
 Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 11:06 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Insulation of pipe in attics

 Tenting can be problematic regardless of where the vapor barrier is located.

 The tent must remain intact for the life of the structure and by
 intact I mean free from being disturbed by anyone in the space
 (electrical, cable, satellite, other) and if there are holes or gaps
 from the install, settling of the insulation, or someone in there,
 the cold air gets in.  The cold also can be drawn in through holes
 or gaps by mechanical equipment creating a negative in the structure
 such as bathroom exhaust fans, kitchen exhaust fans, furnaces,
 fireplaces, and so on and a combination of those all operating at
 the same time makes the condition worse.

 Be careful when you go this route.

 Scott
  
 Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
 Cell: (612) 759-5556

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Charles 
 Thurston
 Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 10:54 AM
 To: John Denhardt
 Subject: Re: Insulation of pipe in attics

 Hello John,

 Thank You.  Those are good, but they are blowing in the insulation
 in the rest of the ceiling so they do not show the plastic sheeting under the 
 batts of insulation.

 Thursday, June 4, 2015, 11:22:51 AM, you wrote:

 Look at the NFPA Research Foundation report that covers insulation for 
 sprinkler piping.  It has some very good details and pictures.

 John

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 Charles Thurston
 Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 11:27 AM
 To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Insulation of pipe in attics

 Hello Sprinklerforum,

   I have a project where they are using blown insulation in the attic. 
 Per the diagram I have seen many times I showed plastic sheeting 
 draped over the pipe and batt insulation on top of the plastic. The 
 insulation installers put the batt on the pipe and plastic over that. 
 Looking for the code section that describes it with the plastic under 
 the pipe. I looked at 13 which refers back to 13D that I do not have 
 here, Any help on the section with the diagram?




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Re: Insulation of pipe in attics

[Charles Thurston]

Hello John,

Thank You.  Those are good, but they are blowing in the insulation in the rest 
of the ceiling so they do not show the plastic sheeting under the batts of 
insulation.

Thursday, June 4, 2015, 11:22:51 AM, you wrote:

 Look at the NFPA Research Foundation report that covers insulation
 for sprinkler piping.  It has some very good details and pictures.

 John

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Charles 
 Thurston
 Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 11:27 AM
 To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Insulation of pipe in attics

 Hello Sprinklerforum,

   I have a project where they are using blown insulation in the
 attic. Per the diagram I have seen many times I showed plastic
 sheeting draped over the pipe and batt insulation on top of the
 plastic. The insulation installers put the batt on the pipe and
 plastic over that. Looking for the code section that describes it
 with the plastic under the pipe. I looked at 13 which refers back to
 13D that I do not have here, Any help on the section with the diagram?




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Insulation of pipe in attics

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

  I have a project where they are using blown insulation in the attic. Per the 
diagram I have seen many times I showed plastic sheeting draped over the pipe 
and batt insulation on top of the plastic. The insulation installers put the 
batt on the pipe and plastic over that. Looking for the code section that 
describes it with the plastic under the pipe. I looked at 13 which refers back 
to 13D that I do not have here, Any help on the section with the diagram?

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Re: Insulation of pipe in attics

[Charles Thurston]

Hello rongreenman,

Oh I know why, Just the guys doing the insulation did  it the other way, Now 
they want a code reference before they will change it. Said they have been 
doing it that way for years and nobody ever said anything.  AHJ is gonna make a 
friendly stop by and happen to discover it at this point.

Thursday, June 4, 2015, 2:59:39 PM, you wrote:

 The vapor barrier over the piping is to keep the insulation from getting
 under the pipes and insulating it from heat infiltration from the room
 below. The batts over tented spaces are used because it is easier to keep
 them in place at the desired thickness over the pipes, the most important
 place, than the blown stuff.

 On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com
 wrote:

 Hello Jeff,

 Hard to do in an assisted living facility, Gotta have wet pipes to get the
 water to the rooms.

 Thursday, June 4, 2015, 1:38:40 PM, you wrote:

  Don't we know it.  The details and longevity is critical.  Best to
  avoid the areas subject to freezing.
  Jeff Feid

  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 Scott A Futrell
  Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 11:06 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: Insulation of pipe in attics

  Tenting can be problematic regardless of where the vapor barrier is
 located.

  The tent must remain intact for the life of the structure and by
  intact I mean free from being disturbed by anyone in the space
  (electrical, cable, satellite, other) and if there are holes or gaps
  from the install, settling of the insulation, or someone in there,
  the cold air gets in.  The cold also can be drawn in through holes
  or gaps by mechanical equipment creating a negative in the structure
  such as bathroom exhaust fans, kitchen exhaust fans, furnaces,
  fireplaces, and so on and a combination of those all operating at
  the same time makes the condition worse.

  Be careful when you go this route.

  Scott
 
  Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
  Cell: (612) 759-5556

  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 Charles Thurston
  Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 10:54 AM
  To: John Denhardt
  Subject: Re: Insulation of pipe in attics

  Hello John,

  Thank You.  Those are good, but they are blowing in the insulation
  in the rest of the ceiling so they do not show the plastic sheeting
 under the batts of insulation.

  Thursday, June 4, 2015, 11:22:51 AM, you wrote:

  Look at the NFPA Research Foundation report that covers insulation for
  sprinkler piping.  It has some very good details and pictures.

  John

  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
  Charles Thurston
  Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 11:27 AM
  To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Insulation of pipe in attics

  Hello Sprinklerforum,

I have a project where they are using blown insulation in the attic.
  Per the diagram I have seen many times I showed plastic sheeting
  draped over the pipe and batt insulation on top of the plastic. The
  insulation installers put the batt on the pipe and plastic over that.
  Looking for the code section that describes it with the plastic under
  the pipe. I looked at 13 which refers back to 13D that I do not have
  here, Any help on the section with the diagram?




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Re: joining steel and stainless steel pipe

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Todd,

Yes you will have some. One of the jurisdictions here passed a local ordinance 
that all pipe hangers exposed to corrosive conditions or saltwater must be SS. 
Less than a year later they had sprinkler pipe corroding and leaking at the 
hangers in the parking decks. A strip or rubber inner tube solved the issues. I 
am not sure what you would use for a coupling.

Friday, May 8, 2015, 11:22:33 AM, you wrote:

 I am working on a project where we have to use stainless steel pipe 
 (fittings,
 heads, etc) to protect a room in a food precessing facility. Are there any
 galvanic corrosion issues connecting stainless pipe to steel pipe?

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)
 860-608-4559 (cell)
 Sent using CloudMagic 
 [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ticv=6.0.64pv=8.2]
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Re: Pump transfer Switch

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Jay,

NFPA 20 2013 9.3 list conditions.  

Thursday, March 19, 2015, 8:19:23 AM, you wrote:

 Since the height of the highest floor of the building is less than 75'
 above the fire dept. access, I don't think this classifies as a high rise
 building per IBC (2009 good old Penna) 202 definitions.  So is there
 anywhere else that might require it?

 *Jay Stough*
 NICET IV LAYOUT
 NICET III ITM

 On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 8:04 AM, Duane Johnson djohn...@stricklandfire.com
 wrote:

 Assuming you are in a high rise building...

 From IBC 2013
 SECTION 2702 EMERGENCY AND STANDBY POWER SYSTEMS
 [F] 2702.2 Where required.
 Emergency and standby power systems shall be provided where required by
 Sections 2702.2.1 through 2702.2.20.

 [F] 2702.2.15 High-rise buildings.
 Emergency and standby power shall be provided in high-rise buildings in
 accordance with Sections 403.4.8 and 403.4.9.

 SECTION 403 HIGH-RISE BUILDINGS
 [F] 403.4 Emergency systems.
 The detection, alarm and emergency systems of high-rise buildings shall
 comply with Sections 403.4.1 through 403.4.9.

 [F] 403.4.9 Emergency power systems.
 An emergency power system complying with Chapter 27 shall be provided for
 emergency power loads specified in Section 403.4.9.1.

 [F] 403.4.9.1 Emergency power loads.
 The following are classified as emergency power loads:
 1. Exit signs and means of egress illumination required by Chapter 10;
 2. Elevator car lighting;
 3. Emergency voice/alarm communications systems;
 4. Automatic fire detection systems;
 5. Fire alarm systems; and
 6. Electrically powered fire pumps.


 Duane Johnson
 Strickland Fire Protection


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Stough
 Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 7:54 AM
 To: Sprinkler Forum
 Subject: Pump transfer Switch

 When is a transfer switch required by the IBC or IFC?  We have a customer
 that has a 7 story building with a fire pump (only 50 psi @ 750 with a
 street static of 52).  It has a problem with the controller and parts are
 no longer available.  We gave them a price to change out with a new
 controller, like for like, which includes a transfer switch.  Now they want
 a price to replace without a transfer switch.  I see that NFPA 20 (2007)
 10.8.1 says to install a transfer switch if required by the AHJ or 9.3.2.
 9.3.2 lays out the requirements for alternate power.  I see that 9.3.1
 says an alternate power is required when the height of the building is
 beyond the pumping requirements of the fire dept.
   Of course as part of the contract he wants us to get the approvals for
 removing the transfer switch.  I am trying to see what I am up against in
 trying to remove this switch.

 *Jay Stough*
 NICET IV LAYOUT
 NICET III ITM
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Re: exterior cooler/freezer

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Christopher,

That is what the AHJs around here look at it as. They say the closed cooler 
door is like a fire door and no sprinkler needed. They even told a building 
owner of he left the decorative roof off a 1500 sq' cooler outside the 
building it did not have to be sprinklered.

Monday, March 9, 2015, 11:16:43 AM, you wrote:

 Hold on a second, there could be a fire wall between the two
 creating separate buildings, lol. 

 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Associate Fire Protection Engineer 
 Burns  McDonnell
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.com
 *Registered in: MN


 Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 10:07 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: exterior cooler/freezer

 I concur with if there's a door from the freezer into the building then 
 sprinkler.

 It's no different than if they added a room to the building.  Some
 think because it's a freezer there's no fire hazard hence their
 rationale for thinking no sprinklers required.

 Craig L. Prahl 
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg 
 McGahan
 Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 11:02 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: exterior cooler/freezer

 It is attached - per IBC definition therefore sprinkler are
 required...that is my understanding and what has been enforced locally for 
 years.



 Greg McGahan
 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 fax 850-937-1852

 On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Steve Sorrell ssorr...@performancefire.com
 wrote:

 Based on my actual experience,
 If no access from the building, does not need to be sprinkled.
 If access from inside the building, has to be sprinkled.
 This is based on the A.H.J.'s


 Stephen J. Sorrell, CET
 NICET# 77901 Level III
 E mail: ssorr...@performancefire.com

 Performance Fire Protection, LLC
 Corporate Office
 179 Gasoline Alley -  PO Box 4510
 Mooresville, NC 28117
 Phone: 704-663-1664  Fax: 704-663-1652 Cell : 704-309-1242

 Web: www.performancefire.com
 Licensed in NC, SC, VA, TN, GA, AL

 Performance on Every Level.

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - 
 Work
 Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 10:48 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: exterior cooler/freezer

 I am working on a project where they are installing 2 exterior 
 coolers/freezers. The coolers abut the building and there is a doorway 
 cut in the wall to access them. The engineer says they do not need to 
 be sprinklers because they are outside and not part of the building. 
 My claim is that they need to be sprinklers because there is direct 
 access makes them part of the building and they present an exposure. I 
 could not find an NFPA 13 reference to support my claim. Any thoughts? 
 (FWIW, there will be a sprinkler inside the building near the doors to 
 the coolers)




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Re: Hydraulic Calculations with two water sources

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Paul,

When you tie the 2 together the pressure will equalize. You have to take 
hydrant 1 off the city supply to tie it to the elevated tank. If you tie them 
together with a check valve as long as the tank system has higher pressure that 
will be the source.

Thursday, February 19, 2015, 4:43:40 PM, you wrote:

 We have an existing fire service (from city water main) feeding hydrants and
 sprinkler systems. The hydrant at the end of this fire service (hydrant #1)
 has a static of 50psi, residual of 40psi, and a flow of 750gpm. 

 Our client wants to add an additional water source, via a 200,000 gallon
 water storage tank at 610 feet about the POC, hoping that the pressure will
 increase. This storage tank also feeds existing hydrants. The closest
 hydrant from this water source (hydrant #2) is 50 feet higher in elevation
 than hydrant #1. Hydrant #2 has a static of 128psi, residual of 8psi, and a
 flow of 265gpm.  To connect the two water sources we are going to run a new
 fire line 380 lineal feet from hydrant #1 to hydrant #2. We use HydraCalc
 and it does not allow two separate water sources.  

 Any suggestions on how to determine how much the pressure will be increased,
 if any?

 Thanks,

  

  

 Paul B. Cetani

  mailto:pa...@norcalfire.com pa...@norcalfire.com

  

 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may
 contain confidential information 

 belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of
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Re: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

[Charles Thurston]

Hello ,

I use em all the time. GREAT as you can drop it in the ground or give 
it to the site contractor. NO need to hydrotest before they pour the slab.

Wednesday, February 4, 2015, 11:08:19 AM, you wrote:

 It’s a great way to circumvent the need for pit at the lead-in when
 the owner is trying to avoid joints below the slab. This can take
 that joint outside the footprint of the building.

 Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire
 Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile:
 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:22 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

 Yeah that's what I'm talking about.

 Craig L. Prahl
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis 
 Mack
 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 10:20 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

 Are you talking about an Ames In-Building Riser?
 http://www.amesfirewater.com/Products/In_Building_Risers

 Travis Mack, SET
 MFP Design, LLC
 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
 Gilbert, AZ 85298
 480-505-9271
 fax: 866-430-6107
 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

 http://www.mfpdesign.com
 https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

 On 2/4/2015 8:18 AM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
 I've got someone asking about a prefabricated, welded stub-up.  Basically 
 connects to the UG and is one piece up to the connection just above the slab.

 I've been hunting but just can't find who makes or represents these.

 Anyone use these or have a website of manufacturer?

 Craig L. Prahl
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com

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Re: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Todd,

rodding is not required, Nothing to rod to at the bend on it. Need to send the 
engineer the cut sheet showing that. I have had to before.

Wednesday, February 4, 2015, 7:37:16 PM, you wrote:

 Interesting that I had a client call about this right before this
 thread started. They installed a 6 unit with the grooved outlet.
 Now the Engineer on the job is requiring the stub above the floor to
 be rodded and a dielectric union to be installed. 

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 4, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Charles Thurston charl...@mbfsg.com wrote:

 Hello ,

   I use em all the time. GREAT as you can drop it in the ground or give it 
 to the site contractor. NO need to hydrotest before they pour the slab.

 Wednesday, February 4, 2015, 11:08:19 AM, you wrote:

 It’s a great way to circumvent the need for pit at the lead-in when
 the owner is trying to avoid joints below the slab. This can take
 that joint outside the footprint of the building.

 Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire
 Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile:
 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:22 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

 Yeah that's what I'm talking about.

 Craig L. Prahl
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis 
 Mack
 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 10:20 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: prefabricated fire riser stub-up

 Are you talking about an Ames In-Building Riser?
 http://www.amesfirewater.com/Products/In_Building_Risers

 Travis Mack, SET
 MFP Design, LLC
 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
 Gilbert, AZ 85298
 480-505-9271
 fax: 866-430-6107
 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

 http://www.mfpdesign.com
 https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

 On 2/4/2015 8:18 AM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
 I've got someone asking about a prefabricated, welded stub-up.  Basically 
 connects to the UG and is one piece up to the connection just above the 
 slab.

 I've been hunting but just can't find who makes or represents these.

 Anyone use these or have a website of manufacturer?

 Craig L. Prahl
 Fire Protection Group Lead
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29303
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com

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Re: Used Fire Pump

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Mike,

Our company has not. It would depend a lot on where it came from IF (and that 
is a big IF depending on code) we would even consider it. I have had customers 
ask if there were used pumps out there when they had one needing replacement in 
an existing building.

Friday, January 30, 2015, 10:06:08 AM, you wrote:

 Has anyone ever installed a used fire pump for a new facility?
 Mike  
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Re: single interlock pre-action less than 20 heads

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Colin,

I'm no expert, But reading 7.3.2.4.1 the word automatically triggered in my 
mind that if there is less than 20 heads, You still need the compressor. Just 
don't need the pressure switch to turn the compressor on/off, Maint guy could 
go by and cycle it daily or as needed. Would still need the low air switch but 
it is allowed to just ring a bell on the wall.

Tuesday, December 16, 2014, 12:43:48 PM, you wrote:

 7.3.2.4.1

 Sprinkler piping and fire detection devices shall be automatically
 supervised where more than 20 sprinklers are on the system .


 Would I be correct  I do not require an air compressor  in turn no
 low switch either ?  I just want to make sure I am reading it
 correctly . I have done this in the past , I am just
 Second guessing myself .

 Thanks .

 Colin Carew







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CPVC Joint Failure

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

  Has anybody ever sent a failed CPVC glue joint off for failure analysis? If 
so where did you send it to?

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NFPA 25 2011 System Size

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

  I have been told verbally by an AHJ in the area that systems under 20 heads 
do not have to be inspected. He said it was in the code, But has not been able 
to pinpoint where.  I am unable to find that code reference, Anybody know where 
it would be?

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Re: Material for kitchen duct of hotel restaurant

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Phong,

There is not an NFPA requirement that it be stainless steel. 16 Ga Black steel 
is used all the time.

Monday, August 18, 2014, 9:42:11 PM, you wrote:

 Dear All,

 This is not a real question for sprinkler but am appreciated if you
 can help. Is there a requirement in NFPA that the ductwork for
 kitchen of a hotel restaurant (commercial kitchen, not residential)
 must be stainless steel? Seems NFPA90A do not.

 NFPA90A:

 2-3 Air Distribution. 
 2-3.1 Air Ducts.
 2-3.1.1 Air ducts shall be permitted to be rigid or flexible and
 shall be constructed of materials that are reinforced and sealed
 to satisfy the requirements for the use of the air duct system,
 such as the supply air system, the return or exhaust air system,
 and the variable volume/pressure air system.
 2-3.1.2 Air ducts shall be constructed of the following materials:
 (1) Iron, steel, aluminum, copper, concrete, masonry, or clay tile.
 (2) Class 0 or Class 1 rigid or flexible air ducts tested in
 accordance with UL 181,  Standard for Safety Factory-Made Air
 Ducts and Air Connectors, and installed in conformance
 with the conditions of listing.


 Regards,
 Le Vu Phong
 Mobile:  +84 (0) 902 363 525
   
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Re: Texas code set

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Todd,

My guess would be they are there to better fight those builders that worked to 
get all those laws passed about res sprinks passed. 

Tuesday, July 29, 2014, 7:32:17 AM, you wrote:

 Steve,

 My experience in Texas is that you have to contact the local guy
 and find out what he wants. The state has regulations that apply to
 state owned buildings only. Also some agencies such as Department of
 Aging and Disability Services (DADS) have their own regulations for
 things like group homes. Those, however, can be modified by locals
 to the upside. Typically, communities that people from out of state
 have heard of usually have some requirements based around ICC or
 something similar. Best of luck in the smaller places. 

 I noticed there was no response as to why AFSA is located in Texas.

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)

 On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com 
 wrote:

 I did that, but my project's in Abilene and I JUST found their on-line
 references to the 2009 I-code set.   They're all closed for the night, I
 give up ...






 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 Todd Letterman
 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 3:46 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Texas code set

 2012 IBC go to the State of Texas Law Library they have all of them
 listed.

 Vice President Pacific Fire Engineering
 CFPS, CET

 where fire never sleeps

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
 On Behalf Of Dale Wingard
 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 3:32 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Texas code set

 2010 for 13,14,20 and 24. Not sure about the other ones.

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


 Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com wrote:

 Can someone please point me to a website or give me a run-down on
 current adopted codes and standards (13,14,20,24,72) in Texas?   What
 edition of the code and is it called the Texas Building Code or IBC with
 amendments?  I saw one website that referenced both IBC and UFC ... any
 help is appreciated.



 SL



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Re: Chain Link Partitions in Ord Group II

[Charles Thurston]

Hello,

The only bug I see is if there are 2 compartments one on top of the other as in 
a 4' wide, 4'tall, 4' deep cube. Pesron with the top space puts in a boogie 
Board that blocks the bottom compartment from getting water. 

Tuesday, July 8, 2014, 5:02:03 PM, you wrote:

 Just a different perspective, but when you concede to the AHJ  when
 they are wrong, you only further empower them.
 Mark at Aero

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of IPA
 Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 11:41 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Chain Link Partitions in Ord Group II

 Thanks - that is what I was looking for. However, now that I see
 the wording I know this reviewer will dispute the chain link being a
 'structural member' - righly so, more than likely. I think I will
 just re-space accordingly and avoid the headache.



 On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:16 AM, Todd - Work t...@fpdc.com wrote:

 If you go into the definitions section, under Unobstructed 
 Construction, it references structural members with openings at least 
 70% of the cross section area as being considered unobstructed. This 
 same magical 70% also shows up in requirements for mesh in privacy 
 curtains. I think this could be extrapolated to include chain link, 
 provided there is over 70% openings in the cross sectional area.

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)

  On Jul 8, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Steve Leyton 
  st...@protectiondesign.com
 wrote:
 
  Got it, we see this in condo communities all the time.  
  Mini-storage, personal tenant storage ... it's all pretty much the 
  same compartmentalization mentality.  IMHO the chain link elements 
  are not obstructions.
 
  SL
 
 
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
  IPA
  Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 9:24 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Re: Chain Link Partitions in Ord Group II
 
  This is a large storage area adjacent to a locker room. The storage 
  room is divided up into little compartments with chain link 'security mesh'
  while the locker rooms have certain areas that are solid framed up 
  to 2 ft from the ceiling which is chain link from there on up. I had 
  it originally layed out as if they were not obstructions but now 
  that I'm starting to finalize everything I'm starting to second 
  guess myself and would like to have backup in case plan review questions 
  it.
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:19 AM, Steve Leyton 
  st...@protectiondesign.com
  wrote:
 
  I'd take a common sense approach to this.  If sprinklers were 
  jammed up against this type of divider, they could be obstructed.  
  But if storage height and clearance-to-deflector limits are 
  observed, these
  don't
  present an obstruction.  Are you looking at a mini-storage?   Over the
  years, have done many of these throughout the Southwest and the use 
  of
 
  chain link - either full height or just the top 2 feet of framed 
  partitions - has been the go-to means of allowing us to stretch out 
  sprinkler spacing and not end up with mean coverage of 50-75 sq. ft.
  per sprinkler.
 
  Steve Leyton
 
 
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf 
  Of IPA
  Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 9:16 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Chain Link Partitions in Ord Group II
 
  Would chain link 'partitions' (full height to ceiling) be 
  considered an obstruction for a storage area in an ordinary group 2 
  occupancy?
  I'm having a hard time coming up with anything for this and the 
  closest I can think of is the privacy curtain requirement for light
  hazard.
 
  Thanks,
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Re: Attic spacing

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Wmenster,

Check Tyco for their attic heads, run a line right down the peak, some heads 
will throw over 25' to each side.

Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 9:51:16 AM, you wrote:

 I have a project with several narrow attic spaces above walkways on
 the outside of a building.  Some are as narrow as 8'. 
 In order to comply with 8.6.4.1.4.2 and 8.6.4.1.4.3 (2007), would
 result in lines of sprinklers less than 4' apart. 
   
 See Sketch. 
   
 How are we handling these situations? 



 Thanks 

 Bill 
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Re: Round Ceiling Diffusers

[Charles Thurston]

Hello MPhelps,

Look up in just about any Lowes or Home Depot, Sprinklers under the AC units. 
Many of those are just 4' x 4'

Tuesday, June 17, 2014, 8:30:32 PM, you wrote:

 I thought the 48 rule was only for continuous obstructions?!
 Mark at Aero

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cahill, 
 Christopher
 Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:55 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Round Ceiling Diffusers

 Seems so, they cover 50% more area than a 4' x 4' square and that wouldn't be 
 a question.

 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Associate Fire Protection Engineer 
 Burns  McDonnell
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.com
 *Registered in: MN


 Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For





 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas 
 Reinhardt
 Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 6:50 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Round Ceiling Diffusers

 Question for the group. I have a large industrial warehouse fully
 sprinklered. There are numerous round ceiling diffusers that are
 approximately 5 and half foot diameter. Does the 4 foot rule apply.
 Do they need sprinklers underneath. Thanks

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Re: elevator pit sprinkler off dry system

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Todd,

How are you going to get a pit waterflow signal? Depending on the elevator code 
it will be required and is not allowed to trip for anything other than the pit 
head flowing water. I have not found a waterflow switch to use for this. That 
said in the same situation we have fed the pit head from the wet system on the 
first floor Control valve and flow switch are on the first floor also, Route 
the pipe down the shaft to the head location. What you are describing is not 
allowed by any of the elevator inspectors around here I have had dealings with.

Friday, June 6, 2014, 3:55:08 PM, you wrote:

 I am working on a project with 3 levels of offices and a ground
 floor parking garage (open therefore dry). The elevator pit is just
 below the ground floor and we have to install a sprinkler  there.
 The contractor asked me how you are supposed to drain the drop in
 the pit after a trip test. Any thoughts?

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)
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Re: Listed Flexible Hose?

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Wmenster,

You will need 2 hoses. 1 at the top to handle the flex of the ramp up and down. 
1 at the bottom to handle the angle AND length changes as the dock goes up and 
down. When the dock is UP it is closer to the fixed end of the ramp so the 
bottom connection has to handle the ends of the pipe getting closer together.

Wednesday, June 4, 2014, 4:34:04 PM, you wrote:

 I have an application for a floating dock with a standpipe system. 
 The dock is connected to the seawall with an 8' long ramp which
 moves up and down with the tide ( approx. 3').  I need to connect
 the 4 main at the seawall to the 2 1/2 horizontal standpipe on the
 dock with some kind of flexible hose. UL listed if possible.  Any suggestions?
 Thanks 


 Bill Menster 
 WFM Consulting Inc. 


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Re: Pressure tank testing

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Roland,

If it is like my Weltrol well tank here at home the water is in the bladder and 
the air is exposed to the metal. I just had to replace the bladder in one of 
them. 

Monday, April 14, 2014, 2:22:36 PM, you wrote:

 I believe there are two general construction types.  One uses a
 bladder to separate the air and water but does not separate the
 water from the metal.  So that type is on the shorter inspection cycle.

 Roland

 Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering
 American Fire Sprinkler Assn.   ---  Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
 Dallas, TX
 http://www.firesprinkler.org





 On Apr 14, 2014, at 9:12 AM, Steve Leyton
 st...@protectiondesign.com wrote:

   I would say a pressure tank bladder is a material that resists corrosion, 
 so 5 years
 IMHO.   

 SL

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Re: Sprinkler Wrenches

[Charles Thurston]

Hello 

I walked in to a location where another sprinkler company was changing out 
heads. The guy removing heads was holding back the RC with an adjustable wrench 
and then spinning out the old head with a head wrench in an Impact Driver.  
They were installing the new heads by hand.  I did not quote the location for 
service work after I saw that.

Monday, March 31, 2014, 10:13:26 AM, you wrote:

 Doesn't make a lot of sense. I have a wrench from the the standard old
 style Grinnell head (c1896-1922 or so) that still works fine and only
 engages the four tits on the base of the head. Not that I personally have
 used it much but it certainly shows lots of use. I also have my original
 Reliable wrench from the eighties (when I learned you weren't supposed to
 use an adjustable wrench), the one that looks like an offset spanner with
 the two ribs that slip into the valley on the proper boss on the base, and
 works like new. I have all the early socket wrenches too and they're all
 fine. Now granted that mine have less use than those of guys that have made
 a career solely of fitting, but way more than six heads.


 On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:49 AM, John Corcoran j...@globesprinkler.comwrote:

 When I started in the biz (Star Sprinkler, 1990s), we shipped heads with a
 thread sealant (Vibraseal was the trade name - sort of a burnt umber
 color). The stuff worked great installing the heads leak-free, but from all
 accounts was just a beast to remove. I know other manufacturers used the
 stuff before migrating to uncoated threads or charging a premium for
 pre-taping the threads with Teflon tape.
 Regardless if this describes your situation, I'm with Mr. Mote on using a
 standard wrench for removal, then using the manufacturer-designed wrench
 for installation. The manufacturer wrenches are designed to put heads into
 a pristine system while minimizing over-torqueing...not the same conditions
 you are facing taking them out of an existing system.
 I know using 2 wrenches is a pain, but it should save on wear and tear and
 speed up head removal.

 John Corcoran
 Globe Fire Sprinkler Corporation




 John Corcoran

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Hicks
 Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:28 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Sprinkler Wrenches

 We have a job replacing sprinkler heads.  So I ordered the specified
 wrench, so we could change heads w/o damage to the new heads.  My guys
 changed 6 heads before the wrench wore out.  We have had the same problem
 with all the brands.  What is the solution? The last wrench cost me
 $150.00, that is an additional cost of $25.00 per head.  I have been
 thinking of having the welding shop build up the wrench with hard face
 powder and then having the machine shop mill the wrench to the right size.
  Any other options?
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Re: Water Chemistry/MJ gasket issues

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Steve,

What are they using to chlorinate/treat the water? Cities around here have 
started switching to clorimite sp and it eats some rubber.

Friday, March 28, 2014, 9:30:48 PM, you wrote:

 I mean Abilene, so I guess that's closer to the Midland/Odessa
 metroplex. And to Johns comments, Jesse Ventura's have been at
 joints comprised of both ductile iron and C900 PVC.

 Steve 

  Original message 
 From: mphe...@aerofire.com 
 Date:03/28/2014  3:46 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
 Subject: Re: Water Chemistry/MJ gasket issues 

 When you say west Texas, do you mean Ft Bliss west Texas, or 
 Midland/Odesalate Texas?
 Mark at Aero


 Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 28, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com 
 wrote:

 Has anyone every had/seen verified problems with UG fitting rubbers 
 hardening or cracking or otherwise leaking/failing due to water quality? 
 Visited a site in West Texas today that has experienced leaks and pushoffs 
 several times over the past few years. I'm not fixated on this; there is 
 quite the lineup of suspects for this one - pump on/off hammer due to fire 
 brigade training exercises, corrosion of restraints, bad install,  all under 
 consideration. But they've had an unusually high occurrence rate of MJ joint 
 failures. 

 Steve L.

 Lord (Muncy), I apologize for droppin' potty mouth on the Forum and be with 
 the starving pygmies down in New Guinea, amen.
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Re: truss filled with insulation

[Charles Thurston]

 
 in between the floors. The mechanical is running hvac in the truss.
 The sections show the space filled with insulation with an 
 accompanying note that states that it will be. My question is how is 
 this completely filled with non - combustible insulation? They are 
 planning on blowing in the insulation around all the duct etc that is 
 in the space but it just seems really hard to believe that it will 
 indeed be completely filled. I remember a while back Roland tried to 
 get a 2 gap on the top and I think that was a battle. I am picturing 
 the duct blocking insulation from getting in plenty of spots.
 Maybe not? Any thougts?

 Rod at Rapid
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Re: Standpipe requirement

[Charles Thurston]

 of the highest floor
 is 30' above or below the fd vehicle access I would need a standpipe. When
 I look at 2009 IBC section 905.3.1 it only references the 30'. So I have a
 4 story apartment where the top floor is right at 30'- it doesn't look like
 I need a standpipe. I just had it in my mind that once I hit 4 stories it
 was a done deal. These are design build apartment complexes with S2 Parking
 garage below where the architect is considering IIIA, IIIB or VB and I am
 looking at the different sprinkler options for each. Looks like I can have
 a 13R in the residential floors in IIIA where the other options are 13
 throughout.  Is there another section that kicks it in at a 4th floor?
 Maybe that was old UBC or maybe I dreamed it up.

 905.3.1 Height. Class III standpipe systems shall be installed throughout
 buildings where the floor level of the highest story is located more than
 30 feet (9144 mm) above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access,
 or where the floor level of the lowest story is located more than 30 feet
 (9144 mm) below the highest level of fire department vehicle access.

 Another thing I will throw out there that it looks like I had wrong... I
 thought the fire flow reduction was only available for 903.3.1.1 (13
 system) but when I look at IFC section B105.2 - exception- It clearly
 allows it for 903.1.2 as well. Probably common knowledge for most of you
 but fyi...



 Rod at Rapid


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