subject:"Re\: \[Biofuel\] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame\?"

That's where you are wrong Todd.

For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.

For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit to
that too.

Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.

Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to plan
accordingly.

I am on a budget just like many of those people.I have been stuck alone
in a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than
2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not say
that I haven't  been on a roof top , and don't know what it's like.

Preparations can be made if you make the effort.

I made the effort, it can be done.

There is always something that can be done.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:27
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 You know Greg,

 Sometimes doing nothing is the best that anyone can do. I guess it's
 been a long time since you've been at the bottom of the heap, having few
 or no options and nothing much else available to you other than hope
 that it gets no worse.

 I wonder what roofs you'd have been standing on if you were in some of
 those persons situations.

 But instead of you attempting to understand what the worst of worst
 situations could be, even before any calamity, I suppose we get to
 listen to you going on, issuing more of the same thoughtless mimickery
 as if everyone in the world has been afforded the same opportunities as
you.

 Simply put? Your superiority complex, arrogance and carelessness are
 showing.

 Todd Swearingen



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread John I

 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:37:35 -0500
 From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
 There Blame?
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Message-ID:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a
 fellow human being.
 Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy).
 They are pleading
 for help even though you think they might not
 deserve it (have mercy).
 That's what drew me to this list in the first place;
 sharing information
 freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of
 ideas here greater
 than any one person. If my reactor catches fire
 because I made a stupid
 mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I
 feel when I read your
 posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.

I also find it hard to critisize someone for not
planning contigency meals (or more) in case of an
emergency when they may have a tough time planning or
providing the very meal they'll eat tonight.  As it's
been said, it's hard to go when you have no means to
go, so you're stuck.  It's horrible and I can only
imagine that fealing of helplessness.  That being
said, I find it hard to catagorize all the victims
as victims.  There is something to be said for the
idea that most have chosen that's where they'll live
rather then being forced by virtue of economics or
other.  It's been said more then a few times in the
list on this subject how questionable it is to live
below sea level next to the sea... and in a known
hurricane area to boot.  Past that, I think it's quite
reasonable, and should be encouraged,  to present
contigencies or various ideas in this group.  I
suspect that many of the affected by this storm will
not approach life in the same way just as do many who
survive a disaster of this sort.  Then again, many
just rebuild and continue as they were and hope it
doesn't happen again, complacent per the norm.  
I commend Greg for trying to be prepared and looking
after the wellfare of himself and his family.  I
suspect that he's shared his views of survival with
others, others that may well be saved by such advice. 
It's only too bad such a voice hadn't been heard by
more of the affected.  
Either way, whether by their own fault or not, my
heart goes out to the many who are suffering over loss
of home, life, certainty.  I'd like to wish that a
storm like this will never happen again, but we all
know it will... somewhere, sometime.

 Regards,
 Emil

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Greg and
 April
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
 There Blame?

 Yes.

 If people live in an area, they should learn of
 dangerous natural
 occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal
 waves, blizzards and
 the
 like ), and make preparations for them.

 Like I said in another post:

 I have no issue with those that TRIED to do
 something to help them
 selves
 and still got into trouble.

 BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  (
 despite all the
 warnings ) to help them selves then expect the
 government and everyone
 else
 to drop what their doing and save them, because they
 would rather buy a
 case
 of beer, than a bus ticket..

 Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that
 they may only have 5
 min
 warning to get to higher ground, and may lose
 everything they should not
 live below a dam.

 If people are going to fly, they need to take it
 upon them selves to
 find
 out what kind of aircraft they are going to be
 flying on and find out if
 that model of aircraft has a good history of flight
 safety, and then
 take
 the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes
 the one in a
 million
 chance actualy happens.

 If one looks at the past one can see that a given
 area is subject to
 hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

 If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the
 fact that you have
 a
 chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50
 ft of sea level near
 a
 coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well
 reach you.

 Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't
 leave because of
 ignorant parents and for the people that tried and
 still failed.Not
 for
 someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5
 gal bucket of water
 that
 could save their life.

 7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and
 cost about the same as
 a
 case of beer.

 If people would pay attention when the experts tell
 them not to expect
 help
 after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be
 allot better off
 putting
 the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink
 that stupid beer.
 With
 a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor
 are they hard to
 put
 together, I have put several together for my family.

 If I had to leave the house:
 I can with 5 min

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

No you shouldn't be dumped from the list.

Let's me see if I can put it in terms of your reactor.

If a guy down the street designed a reactor, and it caught fire.

2 months later he builds it again, and it catches fire again.

Who is at fault?

A different person hearing about biodiesel decides to build the same type of
reactor, despite hearing about the fires, and that one catches fire.Who
would be at fault?

A third person finds out about BioDiesel and  builds this reactor design,
and it catches fire.   Who is at fault?

And a 4th person and a 5th person and so on, and most of the times the
reactor designs catch fire.Who is at fault for the fires?

Ok now it is common knowledge that this reactor design is likely to catch
fires sooner or later.

What about if after the fires, you built the same design, despite being
warned many times that this is a dangerous design?
Who's fault would it be, that your reactor caught fire and burned down your
house, and your wife or kid ended up with 2nd degree burns because of it?
How do you think the people that warned you would feel, that they warned
you, but, you failed to listen?Would they feel sorrier for you that your
reactor burned down or sorrier for the person that ended up with the 2
degree burn?I think so.

How would you feel, if you know a person was warned that a reactor design
was dangerous, many times, before they built it, and they still built it?
What about after the reactor burned down and someone was injured or killed
because the warnings were not heeded?Sure, you would feel bad, that it
happened, but, you would also be angry, because the hurt and the pain need
not have been as severe if some precautions were taken.

I hurt, that it happened, but, in many ways I am extremely angry with the
situation, because I know, without any doubt, that it need not have been
that bad ( or be as bad as it is ) had more people been prepared, or taken
more steps to be prepared for the worst.Not just with individuals, but,
with the city of New Orleans, for it sure does not look like they had any
comprehensive disaster plan.And if anybody should have had a plan in
place to deal with a worst case scenario, they should have.The state is
just as guilty, they knew how bad it could get for years, heck I knew for 15
years that this could happen, so did many other, and the warnings were out
there.Unfortunately it always starts with the individuals, because, it
almost always takes at least 72 hrs to really get people and supplies moving
to those that needs it.

What am I doing about it?

It doesn't matter, because someone could claim I'm making it up, and how
would I prove a negative wrong?

Greg H.




- Original Message - 
From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:37
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
 Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
 for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
 That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
 freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
 than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
 mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
 posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.

 Regards,
 Emil

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
 April
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

 Yes.

 If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
 occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
 the
 like ), and make preparations for them.

 Like I said in another post:

 I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
 selves
 and still got into trouble.

 BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
 warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
 else
 to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
 case
 of beer, than a bus ticket..

 Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
 min
 warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
 live below a dam.

 If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to
 find
 out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
 that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then
 take
 the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a
 million
 chance actualy happens.

 If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
 hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

 If you live below sea level near

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Flamemom





In a message dated 9/1/2005 5:16:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment?The irony here ishow 
  youexpress less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.
  
  Mike

The issue isn't quite that simple.
These people aren't doing anything to help themselves.
They are shooting at the rescue workers, setting fires, massive 
looting.

More security being sent in means less resources for the relief.
Yet security is the issue these people have forced to the front of the 
list.

I also don't have any sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves and 
do their best to interfere with those who are trying to help them.

To shoot at someone trying to help another, just because it isn't you is 
pretty horrible.
If you want to get help for yourself and your family, pitch in and help 
out. Speed up the rescue and assistance for those in more need and your turn 
comes faster.

I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, 
shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more 
difficult.

In the hurricane damage in Florida, the day after people were getting out 
and about, cleaning up (particularly the roads) and making repairs and doing 
what ever they could for each other and making things easier for the relief to 
get thru.

I was in the Earthquake in San Francisco, and immediately after it settled, 
we were doing the same thing. Helping each other and cleaning up and making 
ourselves easy tohelp.

These people are not following the pattern and I don't have any sympathy 
for them either.

Relief buses are very, very late because the roads are blocked. Fine, get 
out and help clear the roads. No food being distributed, fine get a hold of 
someone in charge and volunteer to lead your fellows to do the work. If relief 
isn't timely because it takes large teams to do the work of one person simply 
for security's sake, then relief simply isn't going to be timely or 
efficient.

These people don't get my sympathy either, they horrify me.

I thought that the majority of the people on a list like this one would be 
very much into doing for yourself, not waiting around depending on others to 
rescue us from the dinodiesel (I love that word, thanks to who ever used it) 
problems. People who step right up and do what needs to be done. People who help 
each other not from charity or empathy but from the desire to propagate the 
ideas and energy of "do-it-yourself".

Therefore, I find his attitude quite logical.

I'm a newbie though, what do I know.

Blessings
Johanna
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




No. 

I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of meteorology say it's going to be a bad storm and they should evacuate 
coastal areas,people should believe them.

I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of geology say thata any break in the levies would put 20 feet ( or 
more ) of water in parts of New Orleans, people should believe 
them.

I'm saying that whenspecialist from 
the field of disaster relief and disaster preparedness, say not to expect any 
direct help from the government for the first 72 hrs after a disaster, people 
should believethem.

That is what I'm am saying.

What you are hearing from meis not a 
matter of expressingless sympathy as the results ofmatters 
gettingworse, but, of extremefrustration on my part, from knowing, 
that part of this suffering, did not have to happen, had more planning been 
done.

" People don't plan to 
fail. People justfail to plan ".

The more suffering I'm hearing about, 
themore frustrated I am getting. I am extremely 
frustrated about the whole situation, and there is not much more I can do, other 
than I have already done, ( other than to warn other's )and I don't like 
it one little bit.


Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  14:54
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
  Whatever happened to "From Each According To His Abilities, To Each 
  According To His Needs"?
  
  ...oh, I forgot. That never really caught on in the US (sorry, couldn't 
  help myself).
  
  So Greg, when you say stuff like "
  
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
  
  Are you saying that we should scold them first, then help them? Maybe you 
  mean that they "made their bed" and now they should "lay in it" as the saying 
  goes.
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
  
  You mean like, civil servants, in uniform like the police or something. 
  That's the funny part Greg. Those "experts" have been barking ordersat 
  some of the people down there for decades. You would think that they would 
  listen and maybe trust them when they say something. By the way, ...ever watch 
  Mississippi Burning? ...great movie!
  
  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment?The irony here ishow 
  youexpress less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.
  
  Mike"Manzo, Emil" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  You 
can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.Put 
yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleadingfor 
help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).That's 
what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing informationfreely 
to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greaterthan any 
one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupidmistake, 
should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read yourposts 
doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. 
Regards,Emil-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Greg andAprilSent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 
PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina 
slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?Yes.If people live in an 
area, they should learn of dangerous naturaloccurrences ( quakes, 
tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards andthelike ), and make 
preparations for them.Like I said in another post:"I have no 
issue with those that TRIED to do something to help themselvesand 
still got into trouble.BUT I do have issues with those that did 
NOTHING ( despite all thewarnings ) to help them selves then expect the 
government and everyoneelseto drop what their doing and save them, 
because they would rather buy acaseof beer, than a bus 
ticket.".Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they 
may only have 5minwarning to get to higher ground, and may lose 
everything they should notlive below a dam.If people are going 
to fly, they need to take it upon them selves tofindout what kind of 
aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out ifthat model of 
aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and thentakethe 
personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in 
amillionchance actualy happens.If one looks at the past one 
can see that a given area is subject tohurricanes and should prepare 
accordingly.If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the 
fact that you haveachance of getting flooded. If you live within 50 
ft of sea level nearacoast, expect that the tidal surge could very 
well reach you.Empathy? My

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread TarynToo

In captions on news photos of Orleans:
White people who were carrying boxes were 'scavenging'.
Black people who were carrying boxes were 'looting'.

Both the white scavengers and the black looters were collecting stuff 
that was certain to be a complete write-off for whomever owned it 
before. Who cares if a wet TV ends up in someone's new cardboard home?

Robert Heinlein (I think) once said, The punishment for stupidity is 
death. If you're seeking consumer electronics instead of water, food, 
and medicine, the Darwin effect is sure to get you.

When some poor fool gets caught with a few joints, more than once, we 
toss him in prison for a long mandatory sentence, often evicting some 
rapist or murderer who wasn't  mandatorily sentenced.
When some rich fool gets caught defrauding 300 million people, we 
re-elect him.

Ok, that's my rant for the evening, g'night all.

taryn
http://ornae.com/


On Sep 1, 2005, at 10:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Kim,

 You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that way.  I am just 
 getting
 caught up on the day's email, and I found that I agree more with you 
 two
 that most of the others on this particular topic.  If I lived in a
 disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana, Florida, Southern 
 California
 or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly prepare for the worst.

 I also do not condemn the people who attempted to help themselves.  In 
 fact,
 I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate (or tried to) and now 
 do
 not know where their homes are still standing or have been stripped 
 clean by
 selfish looters.  I would gladly open my home to someone in that 
 situation,
 whether I knew them well or not.

 For those who stayed behind against the warnings of the weather experts
 (including the non-governmental ones), state and local governments, 
 don't
 worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as they always do.  I 
 just
 hope that the local police get a copy of the news tapes showing the 
 faces of
 those looters carrying TVs  DVD players out of the abandoned stores.  
 What
 do you need a TV for when the power is expected to be out for weeks or
 months?  It would be nice to see some prosecuted.

 Thanks,

 Earl Kinsley
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 --
 Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible 
 government
 owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. 
 To
 destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance 
 between
 corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the 
 statesmen of
 today.
  - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906

 - Original Message -
 From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 Greetings,

 I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration 
 with
 people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to 
 pick
 up the pieces?

 Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just 
 those who
 don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we 
 were
 growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water 
 main
 and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street
 that
 was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have 
 the
 money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums. 
  I
 mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid 
 they
 were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help 
 the
 guy.

 How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

 I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves 
 and
 others is out of line.

 And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
 people of Louisianna.

 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:


 I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
 judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how 
 you
 express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
 worse.

 Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Frantz DESPREZ

France must be punished
   Condie RICE
:-)
frantz

On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:

OK .. well .. history

New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
the
Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
trade.

But really only a port that sent goods to another land.

New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
population
of free black.

It also needs to be understood that the majority of those free black  
were
from a line of freed slaves (women) who were the contract purchased
mistresses of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
offspring .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
conducting
negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
contract to ensure their future wealth.

The whiter the skin the more desirable.

Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
children
fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
..
these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
scarves.

I have a thing about head scarves!!

.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
bit of Swedish (as if a bit of anything could fit in there).

The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
his
contract acquired (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
contracts .. and even if the the gentleman grew tired of his  
mistress ..
the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
in the
name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.

If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
another
woman.

New Orleans wasn't a planned neighborhood .. but historically, it  
has gain
a certain reputation of being a great place to party.

Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
follows.

The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
population ..
the businesses .. and the party.

.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
French .. a large percentage of the free black disappeared (sold  
north)
and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings,
I am sorry if I took your comment the wrong way.  I am just trying to share 
alternatives.  You are correct, there is no one size fits all in the health 
department, since our genealogy has lots to do with what will work for us

At 06:47 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
Kim , my apologies if my position was taken as ridicule, there was no such 
intent.  All I am trying
to do is point out all the variables in any health decision, particularly 
when someone makes a
blanket statement such as A is good, B is bad.



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings,
No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, 
then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children 
died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that 
every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like 
that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others 
to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that 
their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
  help themselves, just those who don't.


And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
all they could within their means?

An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
than Katrina. See  Hurricane Pam Exercise,
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?

As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
decisions on the same basis.

A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.

Todd Swearingen



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 
 I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
 people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
 up the pieces?
 
 Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
 don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
 growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
 and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that
 was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
 money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
 mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
 were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.
 
 How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
 
 I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
 others is out of line.
 
 And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
 people of Louisianna.
 
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 
 I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
 judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
 express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




"Preparations can be made if you make the effort."

This thread is beginning to take on a "they" flavor. They were unprepared, lazy, foolish, etc.

I do everything I can to resist the urge to judge people. However, I exercise every freedom to judge other people's opinions and philosophies with every expectation that they reciprocate.

That said, I thinka statement like "Preparations can be made if you make the effort." is a generalization which is presumptuous, judgmental (in this context), lacksany informational value and is based completely on emotion.

MikeGreg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's where you are wrong Todd.For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit tothat too.Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to planaccordingly.I am on a budget just like many of those people. I have been stuck alonein a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not saythat I haven't " been on a roof top ", and don't know what it's like.Preparations can be made if you make the effort.I made the effort, it can be done.There is always something that can be done.Greg H.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread John Hayes

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
 Greetings,
 No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  

I prefer Blaupunkt over Pioneer, but my friend prefers Aiwa. Anything is 
better than Sony.

Oh wait... nevermind.

;)

jh

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


"We never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves."

Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of generalizationsexpress a kind of discrimination that, at best has no value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.

MikeGarth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings,No one but you has brought up any stereo types. If you honestly believe that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, then enjoy your rose colored glasses. Most of us feel anger that children died because their parents would not heed warnings. We never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves. It is sad that their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.Bright Blessings,Kim___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread John I

 Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 03:02:27 -0400
 From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
 There Blame?
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Message-ID:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII;
 format=flowed

 In captions on news photos of Orleans:
   White people who were carrying boxes were
 'scavenging'.
   Black people who were carrying boxes were
 'looting'.

It's theft no matter who's doing it...  I haven't
noticed any difference in coverage between which race
is stealing. That's not to say you haven't or that
there isn't something wrong with it when you have.  

 Both the white scavengers and the black looters were
 collecting stuff 
 that was certain to be a complete write-off for
 whomever owned it 
 before. Who cares if a wet TV ends up in someone's
 new cardboard home?

I care on several levels!  If it goes to that persons
insurance when it wouldn't have then it affects all
other insurance ratepayer(of that company/govt). 
Despite what the anarchists may say, there is
something to be said for the rule of law.  If it was
your store or home being looted I doubt we'd see you
there handing the stuff out since it's covered anyway.

 Robert Heinlein (I think) once said, The punishment
 for stupidity is 
 death. If you're seeking consumer electronics
 instead of water, food, 
 and medicine, the Darwin effect is sure to get you.

 When some poor fool gets caught with a few joints,
 more than once, we 
 toss him in prison for a long mandatory sentence,
 often evicting some 
 rapist or murderer who wasn't  mandatorily
 sentenced.
 When some rich fool gets caught defrauding 300
 million people, we 
 re-elect him.

No doubt!  It sickens me to see that rich get a slap
on the wrist or evade prosecution all together.  When
fined only a small percentage of the take so when that
1 yr stay at club fed is over it's back to the
Ritz disgusting.  

 Ok, that's my rant for the evening, g'night all.

 taryn
 http://ornae.com/

 On Sep 1, 2005, at 10:57 PM,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Kim,

  You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that
 way.  I am just 
  getting
  caught up on the day's email, and I found that I
 agree more with you 
  two
  that most of the others on this particular topic. 
 If I lived in a
  disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana,
 Florida, Southern 
  California
  or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly
 prepare for the worst.

  I also do not condemn the people who attempted to
 help themselves.  In 
  fact,
  I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate
 (or tried to) and now 
  do
  not know where their homes are still standing or
 have been stripped 
  clean by
  selfish looters.  I would gladly open my home to
 someone in that 
  situation,
  whether I knew them well or not.

  For those who stayed behind against the warnings
 of the weather experts
  (including the non-governmental ones), state and
 local governments, 
  don't
  worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as
 they always do.  I 
  just
  hope that the local police get a copy of the news
 tapes showing the 
  faces of
  those looters carrying TVs  DVD players out of
 the abandoned stores.  
  What
  do you need a TV for when the power is expected to
 be out for weeks or
  months?  It would be nice to see some prosecuted.

  Thanks,

  Earl Kinsley
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  --
  Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned
 an invisible 
  government
  owing no allegiance and acknowledging no
 responsibility to the people. 
  To
  destroy this invisible government, to befoul the
 unholy alliance 
  between
  corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first
 task of the 
  statesmen of
  today.
   - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906

  - Original Message -
  From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans.
 Is There Blame?

  Greetings,

  I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that
 feel frustration 
  with
  people who don't care about their lives, then
 expect someone else to 
  pick
  up the pieces?

  Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help
 themselves, just 
  those who
  don't.  I can remember my parents being irate
 with a neighbor when we 
  were
  growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There
 was a broken water 
  main
  and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The
 one guy on the street
  that
  was always bragging about his new toys, was the
 one that didn't have 
  the
  money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his
 insurance premiums. 
   I
  mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta,
 Canada?  I am afraid 
  they
  were not very polite when someone came canvassing
 for money to help 
  the
  guy.

  How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

  I don't see that a rant against people who have

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Why not Sony?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:56
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 
 I prefer Blaupunkt over Pioneer, but my friend prefers Aiwa. Anything is 
 better than Sony.
 


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If 
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could 
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away 
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we 
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that 
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live 
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:04 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:

Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of 
generalizations express a kind of discrimination that, at best has no 
value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.

Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Appal Energy

Go back and read your own words Kim.

Their all-inclusiveness painted everyone with the same broad brush. No 
different than Greg, you imply that everyone who remained is of the same 
mindset/mentality, and then you both progress and attempt to convict all 
who stayed as having the same criminal intent and/or recklessness, to 
the point of negligent homicide.

The carelessness with how you, Greg and now Johanna have chosen your 
words, failing to separate they from the remotely small population of 
them to whom your frustrations, condemnations and self-righteous 
judgements may (or may not apply), places you precisely and 
smack-dab-center within the definition of stereotyping.

Frustration is not a worthy excuse for the exercise that the three of 
you are conducting. Thoughtlessness is.

Not at all in line with the visual given of someone who constantly signs 
off with bright blessings. All rather cold, callous and quite the 
opposite.

Todd Swearingen


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, 
then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children 
died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that 
every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like 
that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others 
to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that 
their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  

Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
help themselves, just those who don't.
  

And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
all they could within their means?

An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
than Katrina. See  Hurricane Pam Exercise,
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?

As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
decisions on the same basis.

A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.

Todd Swearingen



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



Greetings,

I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
up the pieces?

Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that
was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.

How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
others is out of line.

And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
people of Louisianna.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:



  

I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.

Mike





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messages):


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If 
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could 
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away 
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we 
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that 
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live 
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim



Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not a 
dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a spade we 
are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of 
sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all die of fence riding 
induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

You say that it's not that simple yet, you generalize by pointing to a mixed group of people and take a position against"them", saying that "they" don't help themselves andshoot at rescue workers.

Oversimplified - Hell Yes!

Who are "they" and how do you know the circumstances of each person and what "their" motivations are?

"I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more difficult."

That's right! They're all suicide drowners! Wait, that doesn't sound right. How about suicide starvers, out to send a message but, those rescuing infidelsjust won't give up!

Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 9/1/2005 5:16:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment?The irony here ishow youexpress less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.

Mike

The issue isn't quite that simple.
These people aren't doing anything to help themselves.
They are shooting at the rescue workers, setting fires, massive looting.

More security being sent in means less resources for the relief.
Yet security is the issue these people have forced to the front of the list.

I also don't have any sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves and do their best to interfere with those who are trying to help them.

To shoot at someone trying to help another, just because it isn't you is pretty horrible.
If you want to get help for yourself and your family, pitch in and help out. Speed up the rescue and assistance for those in more need and your turn comes faster.

I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more difficult.

In the hurricane damage in Florida, the day after people were getting out and about, cleaning up (particularly the roads) and making repairs and doing what ever they could for each other and making things easier for the relief to get thru.

I was in the Earthquake in San Francisco, and immediately after it settled, we were doing the same thing. Helping each other and cleaning up and making ourselves easy tohelp.

These people are not following the pattern and I don't have any sympathy for them either.

Relief buses are very, very late because the roads are blocked. Fine, get out and help clear the roads. No food being distributed, fine get a hold of someone in charge and volunteer to lead your fellows to do the work. If relief isn't timely because it takes large teams to do the work of one person simply for security's sake, then relief simply isn't going to be timely or efficient.

These people don't get my sympathy either, they horrify me.

I thought that the majority of the people on a list like this one would be very much into doing for yourself, not waiting around depending on others to rescue us from the dinodiesel (I love that word, thanks to who ever used it) problems. People who step right up and do what needs to be done. People who help each other not from charity or empathy but from the desire to propagate the ideas and energy of "do-it-yourself".

Therefore, I find his attitude quite logical.

I'm a newbie though, what do I know.

Blessings
Johanna___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure out who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one walking out of a store with a TV.

Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!

MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Garth Kim Travis wrote:Greetings,If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate. If it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate. Could you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away with whatever they feel like? No one held accountable, is this not what we complain about in our government? I did not apologize, I made sure that what I said was not being taken out of context. I have no desire to live in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.Bright Blessings,KimThank goodness for people like you! And I think you said you are Canadian which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call
a spade a spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all die of fence riding induced lethargy.Joe___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  You are judging me.  and 
I reply,  If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 
 If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
 it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
 you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
 with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
 complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
 what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
 in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.
 
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Mike Weaver

Yeah, let's get Mel Gibson to spank 'em

Frantz DESPREZ wrote:

France must be punished
   Condie RICE
:-)
frantz

On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:

  

OK .. well .. history

New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
the
Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
trade.

But really only a port that sent goods to another land.

New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
population
of free black.

It also needs to be understood that the majority of those free black  
were
  

from a line of freed slaves (women) who were the contract purchased


mistresses of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
offspring .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
conducting
negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
contract to ensure their future wealth.

The whiter the skin the more desirable.

Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
children
fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
..
these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
scarves.

I have a thing about head scarves!!

.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
bit of Swedish (as if a bit of anything could fit in there).

The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
his
contract acquired (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
contracts .. and even if the the gentleman grew tired of his  
mistress ..
the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
in the
name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.

If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
another
woman.

New Orleans wasn't a planned neighborhood .. but historically, it  
has gain
a certain reputation of being a great place to party.

Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
follows.

The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
population ..
the businesses .. and the party.

.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
French .. a large percentage of the free black disappeared (sold  
north)
and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.

  


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?





It's the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the
blinders off;

Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV
set? What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one?
There is a difference between compassion and blindness. If you had a
long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would
it change the friendship? Is your compassion completely
unconditional? Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us
to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there?
Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a
wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded? Suppose
your partner was equally indiscriminate? Would you still feel honoured
by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender) Are
you going to burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not
learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and
again? Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their
own child, well not if they are good parents anyways. Often people
have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do.
They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off
your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there
they will bury you alive! Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in
this world? Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not
mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal
place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of
accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and
their circumstances. Too bad this is the real world. Too bad we are
all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion
for those who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us
in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting
what they want. Might want to consider that along the way as I asume
you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk
the walk' and not just talk the talk.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure out
who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a
crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one
walking out of a store with a TV.
  
  Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
  
  Mike
  
  Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I
discriminate. If 
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.
Could 
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get
away 
with whatever they feel like? No one held accountable, is this not
what we 
complain about in our government? I did not apologize, I made sure
that 
what I said was not being taken out of context. I have no desire to
live 
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim



Thank goodness for people like you! And I think you said you are
Canadian which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say
discriminate is not a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often
loath to call a spade a spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to
accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of sanity! Come on back
home we need you here before we all die of fence riding induced
lethargy.

Joe
  
  
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread bob allen


blame Canada (terrance and phillip)




Frantz DESPREZ wrote:
 France must be punished
Condie RICE
 :-)
 frantz
 
 On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
 
 
OK .. well .. history

New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
the
Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
trade.

But really only a port that sent goods to another land.

New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
population
of free black.

It also needs to be understood that the majority of those free black  
were

from a line of freed slaves (women) who were the contract purchased

mistresses of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
offspring .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
conducting
negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
contract to ensure their future wealth.

The whiter the skin the more desirable.

Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
children
fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
..
these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
scarves.

I have a thing about head scarves!!

.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
bit of Swedish (as if a bit of anything could fit in there).

The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
his
contract acquired (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
contracts .. and even if the the gentleman grew tired of his  
mistress ..
the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
in the
name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.

If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
another
woman.

New Orleans wasn't a planned neighborhood .. but historically, it  
has gain
a certain reputation of being a great place to party.

Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
follows.

The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
population ..
the businesses .. and the party.

.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
French .. a large percentage of the free black disappeared (sold  
north)
and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.

 
 
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 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 
 
 
 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

I have a lot of friends in Canada who don't think like your posts suggest and I'm grateful. I often see Canadian culture as nurturing the voice of reason (what you call fence riding).

The UShas a long history of judging people. Pearl Harbor (for example) gets bombed by Japan and Japanese-American citizens are rounded up and put in camps.

Indigenous people were judged too. There was a consensus that started with"we" couldn't trust "those savages" and now the result is hidden in plain sight by what you don't see inphone books.

Sayinga thief is a thief, a liar is a liar and so on isn't the issue. What is disturbing to me is how quickly you point your finger and without any hesitation, apply a label and with it, a judgment with no interest in researching the matter any further.

"I have no desire to live in a world where people are no accountable for what they do."

More generalizations: The phantom of "people" and "they" continuously appear in your posts.

"...no accountable for what they do."

etc, etc, etc.

Statements about people who may or may not exist, doing thingsof which you may or may not have an understanding and expressing anger and frustration about events that may or may not have occurred by people who's motives you may not know about.

You seem to know exactly who "they" are and I'm waiting for you to tell me.

Mike
Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings Joe,Thank you. Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it? It is easy to understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.I have had friends look at me startled and say: "You are judging me." and I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your friend?" We make judgements all the time.I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no accountability.Bright Blessings,KimAt 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread robert luis rabello

Michael Redler wrote:

 I have a lot of friends in Canada who don't think like your posts 
 suggest and I'm grateful. I often see Canadian culture as nurturing the 
 voice of reason (what you call fence riding).

Many Canadians DO think of themselves as a voice of reason.  Kim has 
pointed out in the past, however, that there's a lot of apathy up here 
too.

  
 The US has a long history of judging people. Pearl Harbor (for example) 
 gets bombed by Japan and Japanese-American citizens are rounded up and 
 put in camps.

The same thing happened in British Columbia.  Racism transcends 
national boundaries.

 Indigenous people were judged too. There was a consensus that started 
 with we couldn't trust those savages and now the result is hidden in 
 plain sight by what you don't see in phone books.
  
 Saying a thief is a thief, a liar is a liar and so on isn't the issue. 
 What is disturbing to me is how quickly you point your finger and 
 without any hesitation, apply a label and with it, a judgment with no 
 interest in researching the matter any further.

We are all people who carry flaws.  Sometimes we say or write things 
impulsively.  Any one of us, subjected to close enough scrutiny, would 
qualify for criticism.  Let's drop the rocks and roll up our sleeves 
to get some work done.




robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?





Hi Kim;

I always enjoy reading your posts. I wish you didn't live so far
away. I think you are in West Texas or New Mexico? Sounds like your
place would be a marvel to visit and if I ever get down that way again
I would defininitely like to meet you and Garth. I know exactly what
you mean about that reaction from your friend. I have had the same
thing. People with your attiude are few and far apart these days it
seems. Accountability is out of fashion with the sheeple for some
strange reason.

Best regards
Joe 

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

  Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  "You are judging me."  and 
I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?"  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


  
  
Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



  Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

  


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

OK Joe, here we go.

"I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk."

You've given me an exellent example to prove my point.

This reaction from you implies that either:

a.) Ifalsely statedthat I'm involved in the rescue effort

b.) I "judged" you for not being involved enough

...niether of which has happened.

Yet without anything to support it, you passed judgement on me.

What makes this statement even more rediculous is that the issue of passing judgement and holding people "accountable" is independent of where and when it might be happening.

Mike
Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the blinders off;Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV set? What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one? There is a difference between compassion and blindness. If you had a long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would it change the friendship? Is your compassion completely unconditional? Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there? Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded? Suppose your partner was equally indiscriminate? Would you still feel honoured by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender) Are you going to
burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and again? Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their own child, well not if they are good parents anyways. Often people have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do. They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there they will bury you alive! Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in this world? Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and their circumstances. Too bad this is the real world. Too bad we are all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion for those
who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting what they want. Might want to consider that along the way as I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk.JoeMichael Redler wrote:

Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread je.howard

I just got it. The less we hold people accountable for there own actions, the 
more we can blame the administration for all their troubles. Makes perfect 
sense to me.

Jeff


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




There is an ant and the grasshopper thing 
going on here.
Yes in the story, the grasshopper ends up 
singing for his supper, but, what do we do in 
the real world?

Now, I'm not saying that all of the people 
in NO are bad and I agree that the people need help, but, how doyou help, 
without rewarding, the bad behavior of the people that are doing the bad 
things?


In the news reports I have seen, the people 
just don't know what to do.

It is said that just sitting around doing 
nothing, but, thinking how bad things are,is psychologically bad. 


Do you start forming work groups, to start 
cleaning up the mess or handing out supplies,thus helping the people to 
help themselves?

Greg H.



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 
  7:04
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
  
  Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of 
  generalizationsexpress a kind of discrimination that, at best has no 
  value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.
  
  MikeGarth  Kim Travis 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Greetings,No 
one but you has brought up any stereo types. If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent 
bystander, then enjoy your rose colored glasses. Most of us feel anger 
that children died because their parents would not heed warnings. We 
never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything 
like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect 
others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves. It is 
sad that their children have paid an ultimate price for their 
behavior.Bright Blessings,Kim
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?





Ok well for what it's worh your statment at a) is wrong;

I didn't judge that you stated you were involved or not involved. What
I said was if you have such unconditional compassion you SHOULD be
going to do something otherwise what does that make you?

And your statement at b) is wrong;

The thought never occured to me to guess how you might judge me in fact
if I was to assume anything I would assume that you would not judge me
at all because you seem to be a non judgmental type of fellow.

Anyways I am going to end this debate which is somewhat pointless and
is taking up bandwidth and wasting space on the archive. If it did
continue I predict that it might go on at some length and become heated
at which point if I backed you into a corner with logic to an
appropriate extent YOU would eventually write ME off as an intractible
A-hole ironically committing the very sin of passing judgement that you
seem to be condemning some people for. Lets just agree to disagree and
leave it at that.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  OK Joe, here we go.
  
  "I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage
zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk."
  
  You've given me an exellent example to prove my point.
  
  This reaction from you implies that either:
  
  a.) Ifalsely statedthat I'm involved in the rescue effort
  
  b.) I "judged" you for not being involved enough
  
  ...niether of which has happened.
  
  Yet without anything to support it, you passed judgement on me.
  
  What makes this statement even more rediculous is that the issue
of passing judgement and holding people "accountable" is independent of
where and when it might be happening.
  
  Mike
  
  Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  It's
the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the blinders
off;

Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV
set? What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one?
There is a difference between compassion and blindness. If you had a
long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would
it change the friendship? Is your compassion completely
unconditional? Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us
to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there?
Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a
wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded? Suppose
your partner was equally indiscriminate? Would you still feel honoured
by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender) Are
you going to burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not
learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and
again? Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their
own child, well not if they are good parents anyways. Often people
have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do.
They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off
your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there
they will bury you alive! Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in
this world? Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not
mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal
place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of
accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and
their circumstances. Too bad this is the real world. Too bad we are
all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion
for those who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us
in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting
what they want. Might want to consider that along the way as I asume
you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk
the walk' and not just talk the talk.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure
out who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a
crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one
walking out of a store with a TV.
  
  Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  

  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Appal Energy

You not only didn't read what I wrote Kim, you completely sidestep, 
ignore and jump over your own all-encompassing statements and the 
singular stewpot that you place everyone in who doesn't measure up to 
your judgemental standards.

And yet you continue to pass judgement on others in the midst of their 
calamity. The masses haven't even found a shower, sufficient meal or an 
hour's rest and you, and Greg and others are still slamming them as to 
how they should be more accountable, not even having the first scrap of 
knowledge as to which ones were acting accountably based upon the 
choices and/or lack of choices at their disposal.

You would serve yourself well to listen to your friends who point out 
your error when you do judge them. The company of the pious is not a 
strong invite to the dinner table.

Todd Swearingen


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  You are judging me.  and 
I reply,  If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


  

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

  

Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Appal Energy

Greg,

 That's where you are wrong Todd.
 For many things I am still at the bottom
 of the heap, and freely admit it.

It's all rather easy for you to off handedly declare others as being 
wrong in their assessment of your behavior. I'd bet my burrow and it's 
saddle that you're in a far better economic profile and general position 
than a great number of those persons whom you're choosing to berate and 
denigrate.

I'd even be willing to seek out an independant third party to 
substantiate that belief. My guess is that while you may know what it's 
like to do without, you ain't seen nothin' in comparison to multitudes 
of your fellow humans, many of whom immediately surround you, much less 
those you deride within the path of hurricane Katrina.

As for your survival plan? Cudos to you for having the moxy, fortitude 
and at least some resources to prepare yourself for some eventuality 
that may or may not ever come your way.

But enough of that, as this isn't about you. Your saintlyhood isn't 
the yardstick for which all others should be measured against.

It's about those persons set square in the middle of a natural and 
un-natural event - part their own doing and largely not - whom you want 
to berate, even while they're still on their rooftops and before the 
bodies are yet collected and buried. Nothing like kicking the dog and 
contributing to anger and mayhem rather than working in a constructive 
and productive manner - no matter how badly you feel the need to vent 
your frustrations. (What makes you think you've got the right to be 
frustrated when you're sitting in the comfort of your own home and not 
in the middle of the cow patty that millions of others are at this 
moment is beyond me.)

What I have said is that your type of all-inclusive judgement is 
short-sighted and destructive. To condemn those who draw shorter straws 
under the exact same circumstances is a practice of malice.

Don't understand what I'm saying?

Start with all the hundreds of thousands who didn't store water or food 
in their 55 gallon drums and 5 gallon buckets as do you. Right off the 
bat they're lesser of a being than you are on your perch. Doesn't matter 
that their barrels and buckets would have been sodden and perhaps 
unusable in this event. What matters by your yardstick is that they 
obviously didn't think ahead as you would or as well as you and they are 
thus judged.

Then you start to separate all those hundreds of thousands of foolish 
persons (by your standards) into sections, those that have enough money 
and resources to flee and those that don't  and begin to berate those 
who don't. Using your barometer, those with such resources are to be 
judged less harshly or not judged at all in comparison to those who 
don't possess such luxuries (resources), simply because they aren't the 
ones in immediate need of lifesaving assistance. (Just wait. They'll be 
bitching, moaning and groaning before the weekend's out and before the 
dead are buried as well. So you'll then be able to blend into the 
company of larger numbers.)

And then in a gesture of compassion, you further contribute to the 
conversation with your condescension against those who have lost 
family as a result of whatever their decisions were, no matter what the 
circumstances were that brought them to that decision. Such a fine 
fellow you and your lot are. Truly a model Thursday morning 
prognasticator after a Monday morning hurricane, functional in the most 
humane and compassionate sense of the Christian form, eh? (Actually? 
Not! Unless you consider the Inquisition, the Crusades and burning of 
witches at the stake to be other fine examples of such form.)

Frankly Greg? You think you're frustrated? Start thinking about all 
those who have taken the time to read your words of piety on this matter 
and the similar words of others and have to choke back the contents of 
their stomachs..

And yet you will inevitably continue..

Todd Swearingen



Greg and April wrote:

That's where you are wrong Todd.

For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.

For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit to
that too.

Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.

Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to plan
accordingly.

I am on a budget just like many of those people.I have been stuck alone
in a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than
2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not say
that I haven't  been on a roof top , and don't know what it's like.

Preparations can be made if you make the effort.

I made the effort, it can be done.

There is always something that can be done.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:27
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




"What I said was if you have such unconditional compassion you SHOULD be going to do something otherwise what does that make you?"

...passing judgment to the very end, and still as baseless and convoluted as ever. My argument has been focused on passing judgment and "accountability". Where should I be going/doing? Is there is a special place where one should bediscussing/acting on this?

"...at which point if I backed you into a corner with logic" 

Well, I would welcome such a radical change in tactics. We might have a real debate on our hands.

MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok well for what it's worh your statment at a) is wrong;I didn't judge that you stated you were involved or not involved. What I said was if you have such unconditional compassion you SHOULD be going to do something otherwise what does that make you?And your statement at b) is wrong;The thought never occured to me to guess how you might judge me in fact if I was to assume anything I would assume that you would not judge me at all because you seem to be a non judgmental type of fellow.Anyways I am going to end this debate which is somewhat pointless and is taking up bandwidth and wasting space on the archive. If it did continue I predict that it might go on at some length and become heated at which point if I backed you into a corner with logic to an appropriate extent YOU would eventually write ME off as an intractible A-hole
 ironically committing the very sin of passing judgement that you seem to be condemning some people for. Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Mike Weaver

There is no call to go making fun of my reactor.  They were small fires
and easily controlled.  The important thing is that I learned not to make
a BioDiesel reactor from straw, so I built it with wood the next time. 
Now I am building the reactor from brick, and have expectation of success.
 I will share the plans with the list.  Please disregard the previous
plans I posted, as they have been proven unworkable.

-Mike




 If a guy down the street designed a reactor, and it caught fire.

 2 months later he builds it again, and it catches fire again.

 Who is at fault?

 A different person hearing about biodiesel decides to build the same type
 of
 reactor, despite hearing about the fires, and that one catches fire.
 Who
 would be at fault?

 A third person finds out about BioDiesel and  builds this reactor design,
 and it catches fire.   Who is at fault?

 And a 4th person and a 5th person and so on, and most of the times the
 reactor designs catch fire.Who is at fault for the fires?

 Ok now it is common knowledge that this reactor design is likely to catch
 fires sooner or later.

 What about if after the fires, you built the same design, despite being
 warned many times that this is a dangerous design?
 Who's fault would it be, that your reactor caught fire and burned down
 your
 house, and your wife or kid ended up with 2nd degree burns because of it?
 How do you think the people that warned you would feel, that they warned
 you, but, you failed to listen?Would they feel sorrier for you that
 your
 reactor burned down or sorrier for the person that ended up with the 2
 degree burn?I think so.

 How would you feel, if you know a person was warned that a reactor design
 was dangerous, many times, before they built it, and they still built it?
 What about after the reactor burned down and someone was injured or killed
 because the warnings were not heeded?Sure, you would feel bad, that it
 happened, but, you would also be angry, because the hurt and the pain need
 not have been as severe if some precautions were taken.

 I hurt, that it happened, but, in many ways I am extremely angry with the
 situation, because I know, without any doubt, that it need not have been
 that bad ( or be as bad as it is ) had more people been prepared, or taken
 more steps to be prepared for the worst.Not just with individuals,
 but,
 with the city of New Orleans, for it sure does not look like they had any
 comprehensive disaster plan.And if anybody should have had a plan in
 place to deal with a worst case scenario, they should have.The state
 is
 just as guilty, they knew how bad it could get for years, heck I knew for
 15
 years that this could happen, so did many other, and the warnings were out
 there.Unfortunately it always starts with the individuals, because, it
 almost always takes at least 72 hrs to really get people and supplies
 moving
 to those that needs it.

 What am I doing about it?

 It doesn't matter, because someone could claim I'm making it up, and how
 would I prove a negative wrong?

 Greg H.




 - Original Message -
 From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:37
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
 Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
 for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
 That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
 freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
 than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
 mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
 posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.

 Regards,
 Emil

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
 April
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

 Yes.

 If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
 occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
 the
 like ), and make preparations for them.

 Like I said in another post:

 I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
 selves
 and still got into trouble.

 BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
 warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
 else
 to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
 case
 of beer, than a bus ticket..

 Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
 min
 warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
 live below a dam.

 If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to
 find
 out what kind

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?



Greetings Joe,
Actually we are in SE Texas. That is why we caught the very edge of
Katrina. I have been talking to people from New Orleans that left
as the evacuation was happening. This is how I could state, that as
far as I have been able to find out, there were no hitchhikers on
the exits looking for rides. If you don't have money or a car, how
else do you leave?
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 10:51 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim;
I always enjoy reading your posts. I wish you didn't live so far
away. I think you are in West Texas or New Mexico? Sounds
like your place would be a marvel to visit and if I ever get down that
way again I would defininitely like to meet you and Garth. I know
exactly what you mean about that reaction from your friend. I have had
the same thing. People with your attiude are few and far apart these days
it seems. Accountability is out of fashion with the sheeple for
some strange reason.
Best regards
Joe 
Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings Joe,
Thank you. Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?
It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say: You are
judging me. and 
I reply,  If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call
your 
friend? We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:





Garth  Kim Travis wrote:




Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I
discriminate. If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.
Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like? No one held accountable, is this not
what we
complain about in our government? I did not apologize, I made sure
that
what I said was not being taken out of context. I have no desire to
live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim




Thank goodness for people like you! And I think you said you are
Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is
not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we
all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Hakan Falk


Kim,

During the years between the first and the second Gulf war, a very
large number of children died each year, something that Galloway
picked up in his part of the US oil for food hearings. ..- who died
only because the fact that they were born in Iraq at the wrong time.
Many 1,000's more than anything from the hurricane. I still have the
Galloway speech at,

http://hakanfalk.com/msnbc_uk_galloway_blisters_us_on_iraq_050517-01b.wmv

This was a direct consequence of the US led blockade. In this case
it was not the parents, it was the Americans.  I did not see many
Americans being upset about that.

Hakan

At 14:35 02/09/2005, you wrote:
Greetings,
No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander,
then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children
died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that
every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like
that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others
to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that
their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
   Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
   help themselves, just those who don't.
 
 
 And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
 it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
 all they could within their means?
 
 An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
 area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
 population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
 than Katrina. See  Hurricane Pam Exercise,
 http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm
 
 I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?
 
 As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
 of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
 stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
 decisions on the same basis.
 
 A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
 as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
 welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
 rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.
 
 Todd Swearingen
 
 
 
 Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
 
  Greetings,
  
  I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
  people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
  up the pieces?
  
  Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
  don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
  growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
  and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the 
 street that
  was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
  money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
  mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
  were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to 
 help the guy.
  
  How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
  
  I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
  others is out of line.
  
  And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
  people of Louisianna.
  
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim
  At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  
  
  
  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
  express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  
  
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread S. Chapin

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings Joe,
 Actually we are in SE Texas.  That is why we caught the very edge of 
 Katrina.  I have been talking to people from New Orleans that left as 
 the evacuation was happening.  This is how I could state, that as far 
 as I have been able to find out, there were no hitchhikers on  the 
 exits looking for rides.  If you don't have money or a car, how else 
 do you leave?

 Bright Blessings,
 Kim

 At 10:51 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:

 Hi Kim;

 I always enjoy reading your posts.  I wish you didn't live so far 
 away.  I think you are in West Texas or New Mexico?  Sounds like your 
 place would be a marvel to visit and if I ever get down that way 
 again I would defininitely like to meet you and Garth.  I know 
 exactly what you mean about that reaction from your friend. I have 
 had the same thing. People with your attiude are few and far apart 
 these days it seems.  Accountability is out of fashion with the 
 sheeple for some strange reason.

 Best regards
 Joe

 Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it? 
It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  You are
judging me.  and 
I reply,  If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call
your 
friend?  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


 
  


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

   



Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I
discriminate.  If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate. 
Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not
what we
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure
that
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to
live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

 
  


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are
Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is
not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we
all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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For one it might have been a good idea to have given an evac notice 
earlier. It costs alot to evac and politicians are reluctant.
Two, there is NO excuse for watching people die because no one thought 
to get AT LEAST water, never mind food.
There is no arguement, there is no excuse. I dont care if these people 
are card carrying Taliban, it doesnt matter. If the U.S. is to succeed 
according to it's own (somewhat (bloated?) self inflated) image then 
there is NO excuse. Period. If we really would rather just doze the 
place and the people that died waiting for help, as Hasert has 
considered, then fine...we are admitting that american culture is 
um...derelict, criminal, without humanity um nazi

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Mike,

I have been looking at the pdf link, in your post, and I am not
understanding your reference.

Could you please elaborate?


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 20:03
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 I want to build my 2 million dollar dreamhouse on the beach and make the
 taxpayers foot the bill when it gets flattened.
 See: http://www.fema.gov/cis/DE.pdf  Rehoboth Beach is almost all on a
 barrier island.  It's nuts to build there,
 and nuts to keep paying to put the houses back.  But I guess the money
 is better spent than being used in Iraq.

 Greg and April wrote:

 Yes.
 
 If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
 occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
the
 like ), and make preparations for them.
 
 Like I said in another post:
 
 I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
selves
 and still got into trouble.
 
 BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
 warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
else
 to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
case
 of beer, than a bus ticket..
 
 Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
min
 warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
 live below a dam.
 
 If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
 out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
 that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
 the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
 chance actualy happens.
 
 If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
 hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.
 
 If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
 chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near
a
 coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.
 
 Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
 ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not
for
 someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water
that
 could save their life.
 
 7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
 case of beer.
 
 If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect
help
 after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off
putting
 the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.
With
 a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
 together, I have put several together for my family.
 
 If I had to leave the house:
 I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
 With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
 With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks
in
 some comfort.
 With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
 sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.
 
 If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter,
and
 4+ months in the summer.
 
 I do not live in a flood plain.
 
 I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
 fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I
could
 install in a day or so ), to cook food.
 
 I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.
 
 I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
 another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
 heater ).
 
 I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.
 
 I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
 splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several
times
 when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).
 
 I'll say it now:
 
 If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
 would be more than happy to give any help I can!
 
 In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the
DinoDiesel
 is running out.
 
 Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during
an
 emergency, so do it before it occurs.
 
 Greg H.
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
 
 
 
 
 Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
 California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
 eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
 No one can predict the future.
 
 Regards,
 Emil

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Terry Dyck

Climate scientists have predicted that our oceans will rise because of 
Global Warming.  Many people living near sea level will have to re- locate, 
some day, onto higher land.  Already the Pacific island of Tuvula is being 
evacuated because of the sea level rise. About 11,000 people live on this 
island.
Terry Dyck


From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:20:11 -0400

I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and
gave my neighborhood a teeny slap, on her way out to the gulf. Now 1.5
million people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New
Orleans alone.

Entrepreneurs and businesses  have always gone where the resources are.
Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are.
Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it
a city. http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html
And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 1200
miles of winding bottomland river into an 800 mile ditch, contained
(theoretically) by 7 meter levees.  Homes, factories, and farms fill
the bottomland right up to the levies.

In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp
into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or
wetlands. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that
flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want
to take them out of production. There are lots of places in this
country where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous
location, like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic
coast, or the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles.

But you can't expect to live on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a
muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments
issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire
policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and
flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from
headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and buffering swamp?  Should
governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of
Miami every time a hurricane scours them out?

People have to find work, they have to live where they work, what can
you do?

Taryn
ornae.com


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Howdy Greg, you seem a little hard on those who didn't evacuate.  I can 
think a couple reasons to stay put. The evacuation went well for those 
with cars, as all roads were open to outgoing traffic.  But what about 
those with our a car?  What are they supposed to do, walk to Arkansas? 
So for those without vehicles or money to get on a bus, they walk to the 
superdome.  Last I heard the roof leaks, toilets aren't working, 
gunshots have stopped the evacuation to the Astrodome.  Meanwhile if you 
did walk, wade, or swim to the superdome, your home and all your 
possessions are left now to not only the elements, but also the looters.

I am not sure what I would of done if in their situation, but I 
certainly have sympathy for their dilemma.


Greg and April wrote:
 They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they
 should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.
 
 Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in
 their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front porch
 and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the reporter
 to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is
 for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
 trying for a Darwin award.
 
 I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
 refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have the
 combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter WY
 is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want
 more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does ,
 after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.
 
 Greg H.
 
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
 
 SNIP
 
 
I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
public works to drain and protect the city.

Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
Hobson's choice,
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html,
can we so blithely say aren't people ultimately responsible for
themselves?

Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly
good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
often floods.

Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
future in the gulf states,

Taryn
ornae.com

P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.


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 messages):
 
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-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
of beer, than a bus ticket.
I have major issues with adults that through their stupidity and ignorance
killed their kids, like I said on another list:
 My heart breaks, for the kids that had no choice because their parents
were to stupid, to even try to get out of the way, and I curse those parents
for risking their kids life.If I had a say in the matter, I would bring
each and everyone of them up on charges of child endangerment..

I had a guy on that list try and tell me that they had no warning that the
hurricane was going to be that bad, after I showed him the forecast and
warnings posted by The National Hurricane Center.He then asked me how
these people were supposed to get these warnings off the internet when the
people had no power, then I showed him that the warnings that Katrina was
going to grow stronger were posted Even As The Hurricane Was Leaving The
Florida Coast

It's one thing to break into a store to get food and water to survive after
a disaster, after your supplies have run out, it's another thing entirely
to, steal TV's, VCR's, DVD's, potato chips, soda and the like, because no
one is around.

I am on a budget, yet I still managed to put together three 55 gal plastic
drums of water, and a few hundred pounds of wheat, beans, powdered milk,
butter powder, white and brown sugar, honey, dry fruit,  vitamins.I
have used salvaged building materials ( most of which didn't cost a thing )
to build a safe room.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:17
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


Howdy Greg, you seem a little hard on those who didn't evacuate.  I can
think a couple reasons to stay put. The evacuation went well for those
with cars, as all roads were open to outgoing traffic.  But what about
those with our a car?  What are they supposed to do, walk to Arkansas?
So for those without vehicles or money to get on a bus, they walk to the
superdome.  Last I heard the roof leaks, toilets aren't working,
gunshots have stopped the evacuation to the Astrodome.  Meanwhile if you
did walk, wade, or swim to the superdome, your home and all your
possessions are left now to not only the elements, but also the looters.

I am not sure what I would of done if in their situation, but I
certainly have sympathy for their dilemma.


Greg and April wrote:
 They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they
 should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.

 Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in
 their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front
porch
 and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the
reporter
 to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is
 for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
 trying for a Darwin award.

 I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
 refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have
the
 combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter
WY
 is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want
 more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does ,
 after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.

 Greg H.



 - Original Message - 
 From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

 SNIP


I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
public works to drain and protect the city.

Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
Hobson's choice,
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html,
can we so blithely say aren't people ultimately responsible for
themselves?

Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Brian Rodgers

Hi Greg
you writeI am on a budget, yet I still managed to put together three
55 gal plastic
drums of water, and a few hundred pounds of wheat, beans, powdered milk,
butter powder, white and brown sugar, honey, dry fruit,  vitamins.I
have used salvaged building materials ( most of which didn't cost a thing )
to build a safe room.
Greg H.

How do you keep stored water fresh?
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Manzo, Emil

Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
No one can predict the future.

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
April
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:57 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed
they
should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.

Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay
in
their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front
porch
and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the
reporter
to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy
is
for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
trying for a Darwin award.

I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have
the
combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter
WY
is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they
want
more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does
,
after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

SNIP


 I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
 governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
 government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
 public works to drain and protect the city.

 Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
 generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
 family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
 living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
 Hobson's choice,

http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html,
 can we so blithely say aren't people ultimately responsible for
 themselves?

 Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
 that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
 highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
 about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
 house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and
fairly
 good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
 than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
 heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
 often floods.

 Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
 future in the gulf states,

 Taryn
 ornae.com

 P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Manzo, Emil

Hi Greg. Chlorine is an excellent sanitizer. Another, lesser known one
is silver. A couple of silver coins in the barrel were used in the old
days for keeping pathogens from breeding in the water. 

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rodgers
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:37 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Hi Greg
you writeI am on a budget, yet I still managed to put together three
55 gal plastic
drums of water, and a few hundred pounds of wheat, beans, powdered milk,
butter powder, white and brown sugar, honey, dry fruit,  vitamins.I
have used salvaged building materials ( most of which didn't cost a
thing )
to build a safe room.
Greg H.

How do you keep stored water fresh?
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Brian Rodgers

Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Were you inquiring 'bad' as in micro-organisms or 'bad' as to taste?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:51
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

 Thanks for the info Emil.
 I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
 Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
 We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
emergency.
 Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
 It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
 Better safe than sorry.
 Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Yes.

If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and the
like ), and make preparations for them.

Like I said in another post:

I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
of beer, than a bus ticket..

Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5 min
warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
live below a dam.

If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
chance actualy happens.

If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near a
coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.

Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not for
someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water that
could save their life.

7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
case of beer.

If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect help
after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off putting
the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.With
a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
together, I have put several together for my family.

If I had to leave the house:
I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks in
some comfort.
With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.

If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter, and
4+ months in the summer.

I do not live in a flood plain.

I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I could
install in a day or so ), to cook food.

I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.

I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
heater ).

I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.

I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several times
when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).

I'll say it now:

If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
would be more than happy to give any help I can!

In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the DinoDiesel
is running out.

Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during an
emergency, so do it before it occurs.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
 California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
 eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
 No one can predict the future.

 Regards,
 Emil



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

There are a few tricks to keeping water fresh.

1)Use distilled water.If you start with a sanitized barrel, and fill
it with distilled water, there is nothing to 'go bad'.

2) Rotate it every 6-8 months.

3)Bubble air through it before use.Water really doesn't go bad
unless something wasn't clean to begin with, but, it can go flat.We are
used to drinking water with some air dissolved into it, but, with water just
sitting around, the air will eventually escape from the water.

4)Remember that a doctor can cure a water born disease, but, he can not
cure a case of death by dehydration.


Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:36
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

SNIP


 How do you keep stored water fresh?
 Brian



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Appal Energy

You know Greg,

Sometimes doing nothing is the best that anyone can do. I guess it's 
been a long time since you've been at the bottom of the heap, having few 
or no options and nothing much else available to you other than hope 
that it gets no worse.

I wonder what roofs you'd have been standing on if you were in some of 
those persons situations.

But instead of you attempting to understand what the worst of worst 
situations could be, even before any calamity, I suppose we get to 
listen to you going on, issuing more of the same thoughtless mimickery 
as if everyone in the world has been afforded the same opportunities as you.

Simply put? Your superiority complex, arrogance and carelessness are 
showing.

Todd Swearingen


Greg and April wrote:

Yes.

If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and the
like ), and make preparations for them.

Like I said in another post:

I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
of beer, than a bus ticket..

Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5 min
warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
live below a dam.

If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
chance actualy happens.

If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near a
coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.

Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not for
someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water that
could save their life.

7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
case of beer.

If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect help
after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off putting
the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.With
a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
together, I have put several together for my family.

If I had to leave the house:
I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks in
some comfort.
With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.

If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter, and
4+ months in the summer.

I do not live in a flood plain.

I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I could
install in a day or so ), to cook food.

I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.

I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
heater ).

I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.

I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several times
when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).

I'll say it now:

If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
would be more than happy to give any help I can!

In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the DinoDiesel
is running out.

Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during an
emergency, so do it before it occurs.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


  

Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
No one can predict the future.

Regards,
Emil





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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Manzo, Emil

You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. 

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
April
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Yes.

If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
the
like ), and make preparations for them.

Like I said in another post:

I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
case
of beer, than a bus ticket..

Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
min
warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
live below a dam.

If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to
find
out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then
take
the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a
million
chance actualy happens.

If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have
a
chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near
a
coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.

Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not
for
someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water
that
could save their life.

7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as
a
case of beer.

If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect
help
after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off
putting
the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.
With
a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to
put
together, I have put several together for my family.

If I had to leave the house:
I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some
shelter.
With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks
in
some comfort.
With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.

If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter,
and
4+ months in the summer.

I do not live in a flood plain.

I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I
could
install in a day or so ), to cook food.

I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.

I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers
for
another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
heater ).

I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.

I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and
some
splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several
times
when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).

I'll say it now:

If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
would be more than happy to give any help I can!

In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the
DinoDiesel
is running out.

Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during
an
emergency, so do it before it occurs.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
 California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
 eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is
perfect.
 No one can predict the future.

 Regards,
 Emil

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Michael Redler


Whatever happened to "From Each According To His Abilities, To Each According To His Needs"?

...oh, I forgot. That never really caught on in the US (sorry, couldn't help myself).

So Greg, when you say stuff like "

"If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."

Are you saying that we should scold them first, then help them? Maybe you mean that they "made their bed" and now they should "lay in it" as the saying goes.
"If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."

You mean like, civil servants, in uniform like the police or something. That's the funny part Greg. Those "experts" have been barking ordersat some of the people down there for decades. You would think that they would listen and maybe trust them when they say something. By the way, ...ever watch Mississippi Burning? ...great movie!

I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment?The irony here ishow youexpress less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.

Mike"Manzo, Emil" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleadingfor help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing informationfreely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greaterthan any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupidmistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read yourposts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. Regards,Emil-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg andAprilSent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans.
 Is There Blame?Yes.If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous naturaloccurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards andthelike ), and make preparations for them.Like I said in another post:"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help themselvesand still got into trouble.BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING ( despite all thewarnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyoneelseto drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy acaseof beer, than a bus ticket.".Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5minwarning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should notlive below a dam.If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves tofindout what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out
 ifthat model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and thentakethe personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in amillionchance actualy happens.If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject tohurricanes and should prepare accordingly.If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you haveachance of getting flooded. If you live within 50 ft of sea level nearacoast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.Empathy? My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because ofignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed. Notforsomeone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of waterthatcould save their life.7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same asacase of beer.If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expecthelpafter a
 disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better offputtingthe money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.Witha little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard toputtogether, I have put several together for my family.If I had to leave the house:I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with someshelter.With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeksinsome comfort.With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter,and4+ months in the summer.I do not live in a flood plain.I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and afireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I
 have a little wood stove Icouldinstall in a day or so ), to cook food.I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containersforanother 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal waterheater ).I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.I also have a 5ft

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Garth Kim Travis

Greetings,
Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water 
fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and 
child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an 
emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what concentration is 
chlorine bleach unsafe?
also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is 
chlorine ineffective 
against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia? amoeba? 
nematodes? etc.

darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
 Greetings,
 Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water 
 fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and 
 child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
 
Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an 
emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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Science is what we have learned about how to keep
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Garth Kim Travis

Greetings,

I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital 
importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from becoming 
totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the 
things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming 
like I am, allergic to everything.

If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so be 
it.  No need to ridicule the information.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what concentration is 
chlorine bleach unsafe?
also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is 
chlorine ineffective
against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia? 
amoeba? nematodes? etc.

darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
  Greetings,
  Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
  fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and
  child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim
 
  At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
 
 Thanks for the info Emil.
 I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
 Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
 We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
 emergency.
 Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
 It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
 Better safe than sorry.
 Brian
 
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 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
 messages):
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 messages):
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Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Brian Rodgers

Ok great thank you bright blessings Kim.
With all of this information coming in, sometimes it seems like
somebody can find something wrong with every remedy. I was hoping for
something a bit more... fun and less fearful than chlorine. I thought
the silver coin idea was a wives tale that some scientific type had
gone about to prove that it was indeed scientific. I don't work with
money as much as I would like (giggle) but I do recall my mom saying
it(coin) was very dirty and not put in my mouth. So wash it first
right?hehe

I think the rest of the chit-chat here has taken on sort of a dark
tone. I am  glad I didn't open my mouth about the Gulf Coast tragedy.
Here and all over I hear people voicing their judgements about the
people down there. All I can say is, Poor people.
Nobody should suffer and for sure people shouldn't have ill intent
toward those that are suffering.
I don't really know how it is outside of my little-town life, but here
parents are in constant fear that some do-gooder is going reprimand
them for some atrocity allegedly committed. I have seen first hand
CYFD take kids out of healthy homes and send them to foster parents.
It is scary.
I hope people can keep from meddling in other peoples lives.
I am not naive, I know that at times intervention is necessary, but it
seems to me that it is way out of hand.
Brian  

On 9/1/05, Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Greetings,
 Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
 fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and
 child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
 Thanks for the info Emil.
 I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
 Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
 We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
 emergency.
 Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
 It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
 Better safe than sorry.
 Brian


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

on the safety of hydrogen peroxide, from the msds:

note at the bottom, ...may cause... death.
http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydPeroxide.html



Potential Health Effects
Eye:
Causes eye burns. Produces irritation, characterized by a burning sensation, 
redness, tearing, 
inflammation, and possible corneal injury.
Skin:
Causes skin burns.
Ingestion:
May cause severe and permanent damage to the digestive tract. Causes 
gastrointestinal tract burns. 
May cause perforation of the digestive
tract. May cause severe digestive tract irritation with abdominal pain, nausea, 
vomiting and diarrhea.
Inhalation:
Harmful if inhaled. May cause irritation of the respiratory tract with burning 
pain in the nose and 
throat, coughing, wheezing,
shortness of breath and pulmonary edema. Causes chemical burns to the 
respiratory tract. May cause 
ulceration of nasal tissue, insomnia, nervous tremors with numb extremities, 
chemical pneumonia, 
unconsciousness, and death.
Chronic:
Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis.

sounds pretty mean, huh?  but we know better don't we. We know that in dilute 
solutions that we 
needn't worry about the toxic effects of a 30 per cent solution.

The dose makes the poison
paracelsus




Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
 Greetings,
 Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water 
 fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and 
 child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
 
Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an 
emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Science is what we have learned about how to keep
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Garth Kim Travis

Greetings,

I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with 
people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick 
up the pieces?

Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who 
don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were 
growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main 
and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that 
was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the 
money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I 
mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they 
were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.

How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and 
others is out of line.

And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the 
people of Louisianna.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:


I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you 
express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.

Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-01 Thread Ray J

i think a few cases of bottled water and or jugs of distiled water  from 
the supermarket  will last a few years
 lol ... 



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,

I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital 
importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from becoming 
totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the 
things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming 
like I am, allergic to everything.

If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so be 
it.  No need to ridicule the information.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  

at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what concentration is 
chlorine bleach unsafe?
also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is 
chlorine ineffective
agai



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?