Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
So I suppose you don't want me to point out that your website is incorrectly spelled as sight -- unless that was intentional... :-) Ok... there is a story behind the misspelling of site The page was supposed to be C64 Site, but I goofed up on my second logo (the one which was a mockup of the old Probe game Trantor The Last Stormtrooper (for any old guys who are keeping count). I got within a week about 30 mails about the misspelling and half of them thought it was so cool that I had misspelled it ON PURPOSE that I just left it... so you could say that today the misspelling is on purpose... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Karl Kuras wrote: So I suppose you don't want me to point out that your website is incorrectly spelled as sight -- unless that was intentional... :-) Ok... there is a story behind the misspelling of site The page was supposed to be C64 Site, but I goofed up on my second logo (the one which was a mockup of the old Probe game Trantor The Last Stormtrooper (for any old guys who are keeping count). I got within a week about 30 mails about the misspelling and half of them thought it was so cool that I had misspelled it ON PURPOSE that I just left it... so you could say that today the misspelling is on purpose... Like I wrote, sight can be taken as an intentional metaphor... hard to explain to a German :-), and it's a stretch, but if you're saying it's intentional then I'd just run with that. ;) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a PC, but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. I am not calling that brand a PC -- maybe you're misunderstanding my usage of PC. I use PC as a platform designation. As written earlier, I write PC games when I am referring to games written for the IBM PC model 5150 and all clones and derivatives. For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, I was talking about PCs, not Apples. But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think that you don't. Again your choice. Just like (God forbid) if I had cancer of the rectum, I wouldn't want the doctor to tell me I had colon cancer just because it was a shorter or more common term (since that would be incorrect). I prefer to discuss both my rectum and my PCs correctly :-))). So you're saying no two abbreviations in the world are the same? I'm not calling them personal computer games, I'm calling them IBM PC/clone games. Maybe this is where the disagreement comes from; maybe you think that by referring to the model 5150 generically as a PC that I'm somehow slandering all of the other platforms? I'm not. But if you're saying I shouldn't use the term PC to informally refer to the model 5150 because it's already used for something else, I think that's foolish. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: I'm simply saying that it is incorrect to say that the term PC only applies to IBM/Intel-compatibles. Which term? Personal Computer, or IBM PC Model 5150? PC is an abbreviation for both. That, ultimately, is the crux of my argument. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. We are the experts in this field. We are?! : Just as doctors, mechanics, etc. have their own words and terms to discuss their expertise, so should we. But we do, like the pink frisbee, or the OCCID, or the hobbyt, etc! Seriously now, RPGers at least have some specific words/expressions for typical ocurrences in the games. Like Foozle, Death Trap, etc. I think this is a bit unique as far as gamers go. These words need not be known or understood by the layman or the Oxford Dictionary. And just like we made up our own grading scale, we shouldn't be afraid to make up terms when it helps clarify things for those that really care. Agreed. On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as tapes? Ugh, for similar reasons, I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was common doesn't make it right. PC is easier to type than IBM (one less char :)), and besides, IBM isn't quite correct, it must be IBM-compatible then (which takes much longer) I'd stick to PC myself. Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk boldly stated: On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as tapes? Yes, and it still does. Although I understand it sometimes help to stoop to that level to find them at yard sales. 8) I believe classic game (cartridge) collectors sometimes find it helpful to simply say Atari and not confuse people with terms like Vectrex. -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a PC, but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, I was talking about PCs, not Apples. Excuse me, but then you can't talk about Apples either. Apple is a fruit :) So you'll have to say an Apple Macintosh for it to be correct too But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think that you don't. Again your choice. Just like (God forbid) if I had cancer of the rectum, I wouldn't want the doctor to tell me I had colon cancer just because it was a shorter or more common term (since that would be incorrect). I prefer to discuss both my rectum and my PCs correctly :-))). I'm sure that if you start discussing your rectum, most people won't care if you're doing it correctly or not! ;) ;) ;) Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
You are correct in both cases. In this instance, I was talking about all Apple PCs...not just the Apple II. I don't mean to confuse the issue. I'm simply saying that it is incorrect to say that the term PC only applies to IBM/Intel-compatibles. Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a PC, but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, I was talking about PCs, not Apples. Excuse me, but then you can't talk about Apples either. Apple is a fruit :) So you'll have to say an Apple Macintosh for it to be correct too But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think that you don't. Again your choice. Just like (God forbid) if I had cancer of the rectum, I wouldn't want the doctor to tell me I had colon cancer just because it was a shorter or more common term (since that would be incorrect). I prefer to discuss both my rectum and my PCs correctly :-))). I'm sure that if you start discussing your rectum, most people won't care if you're doing it correctly or not! ;) ;) ;) Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: Jim Leonard wrote: Pedro Quaresma wrote: Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them. Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare In what world do you live in? :-) In a world with more valuable apple games than PC games :) The Apple II had a HUGE pirate movement all throughout its life. Of course; Apple games are very easy to crack. Not necessarily; there was a huge movement because there was time to form such a movement. Apple was around since 1977, with games worthy of being pirated since 1979. Besides, *you* try using the built-in monitor to debug encrypted self-modfying code loading off of a quarter-tracked disk and tell me Apple games are very easy to crack. :-) Some of them were a BITCH to crack. I never got good at it; I found PC games easier to crack because less people wrote them in assembly (most of them were written in C). A thousand? Well, if not on the net, they must be available somewhere :) Not if I can't find disks to copy and release, they won't be. I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. Did you crack the games? Or just had them on the web? Both. True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. What do you mean? That it took several 3d mistakes for people to see that 2d was OK too? Not quite in those words, but let's just say that a lot of fledgling developers were glad to see Sierra and Origin take on the task -- and run into problems -- before they did. That's very astute (perceptive) -- and also, unfortunately, a fact of life in an industry where 1% of the market buying your game is considered a huge success :-( The market is way too saturated :-( Still room for some great companies/developers to create fantastic original games. Look at Troika Games's Arcanum. Magic vs Technology in this isometric RPG, what a fantastic idea! Kudos for Tim Cain, one of the best RPG developers ever, for having the guts to do it. I didn't mean that the market was saturated with great titles, merely that it was saturated at all. There are so many titles with a pressure to move that great titles may never get shelf space more than 2 months. You can't window shop software stores any more because of all of the crap (extreme sports games, TV show licensees, fishing and hunting games, etc.). Yes, but about the fans' life that he ruined? What about all those people that met each other on Shadow of Yserbius? What about all the Quest series fans? And Larry? Are you saying he had an obligation to his customers that extended past 16 years of his life? -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Karl Kuras wrote: I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. Well I can't say anything personally... but by 1997, the abandonware movement (not called that at the time) was old. I remember it being quite prolific (no names please) :) Already by early 1995. But it was underground until 1997. I remember IRC bots, etc. -- no different than any warez scene. I think the move to the public eye with Abandonware was necessary to generate more sources of software. I don't remember any of the hard-core oldwarezing guys in 1995 coming up with stuff like Cartels and Cuthroats for the PC; you had to rope in the average joe who still had a copy to find stuff like that. My mission is noble, although I know it doesn't always seem that way :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
LKS Of course it's collectible! You never know when you'll find the disks LKS loose somewhere. Surely you can't tell me you'd pass over a pink LKS frisbee or Suspended mask package just because the disks were LKS missing. Obviously a package with disks is worth more than one LKS without and a one with working disks should be worth more than one LKS with non-working disks. JLThe Suspended frisbee is a special case -- of course I'd grab it because JLeveryone else is trying to. But I guarantee you I would probably use it JLas barter or trade material, because EVERYONE has Suspended. So I had the intention of creating that hobbyt trademark, but ended up making another one, the pink frisbee! :) Hope it continues to catch on! ;) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them. Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare In what world do you live in? :-) The Apple II had a HUGE pirate movement all throughout its life. That's why practically every single Apple II game is on Asimov. The PC didn't have a significant pirate following until about 1986, but games date back to 1982 (1981 if you listen to some pundits). That's why hardly any early PC games are on various Abandonware sites. Unless, of course, you're talking about the packaged/boxed software, in which case I'd agree with you past 1985, and disagree with you pre-1985. Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On those games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important Bingo. But they're the exceptions. There aren't that many. You must not be familiar with the early PC gaming industry. There are easliy a thousand PC games/ports made before 1990 that aren't freely downloadble on the 'net. Why do you think my cause is so dedicated? ;-) Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-) Lee? Hugh? Karl? Chris?... H... no idea :) No, not them! ME! I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. But of course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and buried. :-( Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company. Yes, and they've taken a great project: they're supporting this super-crappy online asian RPG, for it to make a triumphal entrance on the US market. Yeah, right. Oh, I don't agree with their RPG stuff... but who knows, maybe 3 years down the road when they have some seed money they can come up with Ultima X. That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's 2D. True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. In a mini-return to that subject, can you tell me why you didn't like Baulder's Gate 2? Or more specifically, what you wish it had and what you wish it hadn't? (Because I just started playing and after 3 hours of gameplay I'm not disliking it) Quakers love 3d, so some geniuses in game companies start directing their efforts to please them too. _That_ was their mistake... BG1, BG2, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Diablo 2, Fallout 12, they all sold pretty decently. True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. ;-) Speaking of BG2, can you give me your email, so I can send you my first direct comparison? Sure: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe my questions above would be best answered in email. Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended. It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something. As I said above, the problem is that they didn't stick to their fans, but to other's games fans. That's very astute (perceptive) -- and also, unfortunately, a fact of life in an industry where 1% of the market buying your game is considered a huge success :-( The market is way too saturated :-( Also, why in the world are great game creators selling their companies to other bigger ones? Don't tell me RG was so poor he just _had_ to sell to EA, or that Williams had to sell Sierra to ATT, or van Caneghem NWC to 3DO (I wonder how he's surviving so well in there, btw) RG/EA: Many at the company didn't like it, but they needed the development capital to make bigger and better games. It was the beginning of their downfall (exactly why I'm still trying to figure out), but it was also the beginning of their most technologically advanced projects (Wing Commander 3, Strike Commander, Ultima 7, etc.) They wrote their own 3D code (Strike Commander had so much advanced 3D code that then-modern machines couldn't run it quickly), wrote their own memory extenders (which is why it's so damn hard to run U7 on a modern box), etc. and nobody else was doing that at the time. They were trying to innovate, and they succeeded in some areas. Williams: He had said many times before how sad it was that the market had become so saturated, and that you had to claw your way to a 0.5% market share. He didn't sell Sierra because they needed money; he just didn't want to be a part of it any more. I don't blame him, given the change of the industry in the first half of the
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should refer to them like I do on my site -- Intel-compatibles or Intels for short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called IBM-compatibles, but in hindsight, Intel-compatibles is a more appropriate term. Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: Okay, well the word has come back from Jon, and the answer is...inconclusive. He said there wasn't one when he left Epyx to form Free Fall Associates in 81 (which makes sense, of course). However, there could have been one made later on. That is exactly the answer I got from the programmer of the original Rescue on Fractalus. And when I asked Will Harvey about the PC version of Music Construction Set, he said There's a PC version? This is why the PC versions of these programs are even more rare than the rare games they were ported from. I do know that there was a C-64 version made in 83 so it's possible that a DOS version was also made. You mean PC. PC != DOS. For hard-core PC collectors, this is significant. For all you other guys, never mind ;-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should refer to them like I do on my site -- Intel-compatibles or Intels for short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called IBM-compatibles, but in hindsight, Intel-compatibles is a more appropriate term. This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting putting stuff like Doh and thru into the dictionary (I am not making that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember Intel-compatibles being part of common vernacular... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should refer to them like I do on my site -- Intel-compatibles or Intels for short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called IBM-compatibles, but in hindsight, Intel-compatibles is a more appropriate term. This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting putting stuff like Doh and thru into the dictionary (I am not making that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember Intel-compatibles being part of common vernacular... OK... the gauntlet has been tossed Let the SEMANTIC WARS BEGIN!!! (sarcasm added at no extra cost) :) Karl Kuras http://www.trantornator.com -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Sure, I'd trade away 90% of those Suspended too, the same way I'd trade away 2 or 3 of my Ultima 4... if anybody wanted them! :) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us Hugh Falk hughfalk@mindsPara: [EMAIL PROTECTED] pring.comA/C: Ref: 02-07-2001cc: 17:07 Assunto: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Solicita-se resposta a swcollect Absolutely I would buy them all! However, I would likely use 90% of them as trade material to get other games I wanted. But that would be the only reason I buy something I already own...because I can get something else I want...eventually. Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote, Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, wouldn't you buy them all? =) Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) Nah, it's the other way around: the market is trying to corner me into buying more! ;) As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). E huh h... I'll stick to habbyt I think. Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, right? No? :) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. Yes, but you still need the software. But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on extreme situations Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? Trinkets are way cool, I agree, but the software is the entire point they were created in the first place. Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies Again, special case -- the Dragon edition was specifically assembled and marketed as a collector's edition. Most software (sadly) isn't this way. Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were the case? (hint: no ;-) If suddenly Origin started selling old, mint, Ultima 4 manuals (spares), they would sell like strawberry muffins! :) ..and the overall value of Ultima 4 manuals would diminish ;-) But of course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and buried. :-( What continually confuses me is that there are at least 50 times the number of copies of Ultimas, Infocoms, etc. than there are of titles like Cyborg for the PC. Cyborg PC is definitely an extremely rare item. So why isn't it extremely sought after, or valued highly? Or ICON: Quest for the Ring... there were only 1000 made. Why isn't that at the top of everyone's list? -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: Pedro Quaresma wrote: Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) That's different. You probably have that specific game for other platform(s), right? But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, right? No? :) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. Yes, but you still need the software. But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on extreme situations Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On those games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important Trinkets are way cool, I agree, but the software is the entire point they were created in the first place. Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies Again, special case -- the Dragon edition was specifically assembled and marketed as a collector's edition. Most software (sadly) isn't this way. Ultima 4/5/6 without trinkets are worth half... Starcross/Suspended without the pink frisbee (I just love calling the saucer that!) and the mask aren't worth one tenth, Ultima CPC without the cover art is worth 1/10th too... Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were the case? (hint: no ;-) If suddenly Origin started selling old, mint, Ultima 4 manuals (spares), they would sell like strawberry muffins! :) ..and the overall value of Ultima 4 manuals would diminish ;-) Nah, Origin are (were :| ) experts in reselling stuff as Special Editions! ;) But of course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and buried. :-( Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( I hope RG eventually makes another RPG that dignifies his past. What continually confuses me is that there are at least 50 times the number of copies of Ultimas, Infocoms, etc. than there are of titles like Cyborg for the PC. Cyborg PC is definitely an extremely rare item. So why isn't it extremely sought after, or valued highly? Or ICON: Quest for the Ring... there were only 1000 made. Why isn't that at the top of everyone's list? Want me to be honest? I never even heard of either. Maybe it's because Meretzky and Garriott are more famous than the creators of both? I'm sure neither is a RPG, or I would have known about them and the creators. But that's an interesting topic, indeed. Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
About Murder on the Zinderneuf...I have the DOS version, and I'm in the Northern Hemisphere! :-) I had no idea it was valuable at all. I don't remember where/when I got mine, but the person would have been lucky to get $5 for it. I don't see how the DOS version would have been especially rare. EA was notorious for mass producing games. The DOS version didn't come out until 1984 -- the original (Atari 800 version, 1983) has the distinction of being the first game to sign a contract with EA (it is also historically significant, of course, because it was written by Free Fall Associates -- also of Archon fame -- Jim Freeman's (founder of Epyx) company). So in my opinion, the Atari 800 version is far move valuable from a historic standpoint. I didn't know the DOS version was especially rare, but I'll keep an eye out from now on! There is another EA Flat for DOS only called Radio Baseball. I haven't seen many of these around, so maybe the DOS versions of EA games are more rare...maybe they didn't sell well. By the way, to blow my own horn, if I have one area of expertise it would be EA flat box games. I have one of the few complete collections of EA flats that I know about (some of you probably have complete as well). I don't have every platform, but I do have every title. Anyone who wants to know more on the topic should visit my EA Flats page: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/eaflats.htm Or my EA History page: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/ea.htm Or my Epyx History (Free Fall Associates) page: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/epyx.htm Best regards, Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors C.E. Forman wrote: So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who collects anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. It would explain a lot of odd, quirkish behavior. And I myself am mildly obsessive-compulsive in other areas of my life besides collecting. I think anyone who collects anything fits this criteria. Something for a thesis study, no doubt. I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the shrinkwrap on. I'm this way with my Infocoms (you just have to be able to get at the props), but I've got to know: If you get a shrinked copy BEFORE you get an opened copy, do you personally (1) break the wrap first and risk not being able to appreciate another wrapped copy for a long long time, or (2) hang onto the wrapped copy until you find another wrapped copy or one that's already been opened, and take the chance that the disk media will go bad while you're waiting? Jim, from what you write after this statement it sounds like you're definitely in the first category... How about everyone else? I'm definitely in the first category. I crack the wrap. And you'll just love this one: Sometimes I buy a third so that I can cut up the manual. Yes, I cut all the pages out of the manual. This is so I can get the best possible scan of the manual pages for creating an archival quality PDF of them (the stuff on Underdogs is mostly crap). (!!!) Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. This raises an interesting dilemma, and the main reason I continually refuse to open it: Suppose I did break the wrap, I went to copy the disk... and it's already bad? The retrogamers are upset because they won't be able to play it after all. I'm out my shrinkwrapped package with absolutely nothing to show for it. But there's no way to tell that until I do crack it. Classic Schroedinger's Cat. I don't gamble with my collection. It's definitely a classic schroedinger's cat. There's just no way to know. And so we wait for another copy to turn up. (I've dealt with my other reasons in Shoppe columns enough times that I won't bore you reciting them again here.) What, you have other reasons? :-) I think the above is the best reason. I totally support you, BTW -- it just sucks for both of us. Somewhere, someday, another copy will turn up. We hope. Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value on the diskette than the entire package. I've thought about this one for a long time, and yes, the software is definitely worth less to me than the package. Why? Because the package is PHYSICAL. Only a certain number of game packages were ever produced. Once all the others have been lost or thrown out, that's it. Mine is the only one left, and there will never be any more. But software does not exist in any
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim, I've sent Jon Freeman a note asking if a DOS version of CCC exists. He made the game and has an excellent memory, so I should be able to let you know soon. Why isn't Quest for the Ring at the top of my list? You should read my thoughts about what makes a game valuable. It can be found at: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/collectibles.htm But I'll paste it here as well: A collectible computer game is a game that is more valuable than the average game that can be purchased in the store today. GOTCHA does not presume to determine prices for classic games; instead value is used here as a measurement of desirability for classic gaming enthusiasts. Game value will constantly fluctuate based upon the whims of collectors; however, a classic game generally will have greater value if it meets one of these criteria: 1)It is a great game. A great game is like a great work of art. Veteran gamers still remember and desire these games. Future generations will learn about them as classics. 2)It is a rare game. More people start collecting computer games every day. As more people become involved, less classic games will be available for the others. Therefore the games that were produced in lower quantities or with low survival rates are often highly sought after. Just like any business, there is a law of supply and demand that can raise a game's value. Keep in mind that not all rare games are valuable. If a game was not a great game (see #1) it may have been rare for a good reason...nobody wanted it. If that is the case, it still may be unwanted. 3)It is a particularly old game. In computer gaming terms, anything from 1983 or earlier fits this category. Old games are generally desirable because they were often produced in lower quantities and have lower survival rates (see #2). While many of them may not be great (see #1) by today's standards, they are often groundbreaking and therefore deserve recognition. Much like Edison's original films, they have historical value if not artistic value. Old games are not necessarily rare. For example, 1979's Star Raiders is still readily available, mostly because it was a great game and very popular. It also came in cartridge format and durable packaging, which gives it a very good survival rate. 4)It is in good condition. A game's condition probably has the most profound effect on its value. See GOTCHA's Conditions page for the various grades. Obviously, the better the condition, the more valuable the game. However, condition alone can't make a game collectible. Condition is a modifier of value on an already collectible game. Of course, the most valuable games meet all four criteria above. -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 5:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Pedro Quaresma wrote: Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, right? No? :) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. Yes, but you still need the software. But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on extreme situations Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? Trinkets are way cool, I agree, but the software is the entire point they were created in the first place. Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies Again, special case -- the Dragon edition was specifically assembled and marketed as a collector's edition. Most software (sadly) isn't this way. Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were the case? (hint: no ;-) If suddenly Origin started selling old, mint, Ultima 4 manuals (spares), they would sell like strawberry muffins! :) .and the overall value of Ultima 4 manuals would diminish ;-) But of course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and buried. :-( What continually confuses me is that there are at least 50 times the number of copies of Ultimas, Infocoms, etc. than there are of titles like Cyborg for the PC. Cyborg PC is definitely an extremely rare item. So why
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: About Murder on the Zinderneuf...I have the DOS version, and I'm in the Northern Hemisphere! :-) I had no idea it was valuable at all. I don't That's because the DOS version isn't DOS -- it's a booter. You must have a cracked copy. Unless, of course, my sources are wrong. I will find out and report back. (Shouts from the swcollect community: No! Don't do it! Don't crack the wrap!) ;-) remember where/when I got mine, but the person would have been lucky to get $5 for it. I don't see how the DOS version would have been especially rare. PC games are generally pretty rare because people didn't really use the PC to play games until about 1985, when the industry started to move and Apple/C64/Atari stayed in the same place. EA was notorious for mass producing games. The DOS version didn't come out until 1984 -- the original (Atari 800 version, 1983) has the distinction of being the first game to sign a contract with EA (it is also historically significant, of course, because it was written by Free Fall Associates -- also of Archon fame -- Jim Freeman's (founder of Epyx) company). So in my opinion, the Atari 800 version is far move valuable from a historic standpoint. I didn't know the DOS version was especially rare, but I'll keep an eye out from now on! There is another EA Flat for DOS only called Radio Baseball. I haven't seen many of these around, so maybe the DOS versions of EA games are more rare...maybe they didn't sell well. Exactly. They didn't sell well. And the PC versions may or may not have significant improvments (or detriments) in gameplay and features. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Lee K. Seitz wrote: Jim Leonard boldly stated: That's not quite what I meant, but you pose an interesting point: Is a software package without diskettes collectable at all? I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I can't place any value at all in a software package that is missing the actual software. No matter how excellent the package and materials are in, it's worthless for me without the actual product, which is sort of the point. Even if the disks are bad, they have to be there (although bad disks are a severe disappointment). Of course it's collectible! You never know when you'll find the disks loose somewhere. Surely you can't tell me you'd pass over a pink frisbee or Suspended mask package just because the disks were missing. Obviously a package with disks is worth more than one without and a one with working disks should be worth more than one with non-working disks. The Suspended frisbee is a special case -- of course I'd grab it because everyone else is trying to. But I guarantee you I would probably use it as barter or trade material, because EVERYONE has Suspended. I guess it all goes to say that worth and/or value is in the eye of the beholder. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Lee K. Seitz wrote: them in to get one.) Many people have it at the top of their wanted list, but (even discounting one-of-a-kind prototypes) there are certainly other games that are rarer. What's rarer than a one-of-a-kind prototype? I thought prototypes were the Holy Grail of cart collecting... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Cracked? What do you mean? I have the original box and disk that says on the EA label: IBM XT, PC, PCjr, COMPAQ Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: About Murder on the Zinderneuf...I have the DOS version, and I'm in the Northern Hemisphere! :-) I had no idea it was valuable at all. I don't That's because the DOS version isn't DOS -- it's a booter. You must have a cracked copy. Unless, of course, my sources are wrong. I will find out and report back. (Shouts from the swcollect community: No! Don't do it! Don't crack the wrap!) ;-) remember where/when I got mine, but the person would have been lucky to get $5 for it. I don't see how the DOS version would have been especially rare. PC games are generally pretty rare because people didn't really use the PC to play games until about 1985, when the industry started to move and Apple/C64/Atari stayed in the same place. EA was notorious for mass producing games. The DOS version didn't come out until 1984 -- the original (Atari 800 version, 1983) has the distinction of being the first game to sign a contract with EA (it is also historically significant, of course, because it was written by Free Fall Associates -- also of Archon fame -- Jim Freeman's (founder of Epyx) company). So in my opinion, the Atari 800 version is far move valuable from a historic standpoint. I didn't know the DOS version was especially rare, but I'll keep an eye out from now on! There is another EA Flat for DOS only called Radio Baseball. I haven't seen many of these around, so maybe the DOS versions of EA games are more rare...maybe they didn't sell well. Exactly. They didn't sell well. And the PC versions may or may not have significant improvments (or detriments) in gameplay and features. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: Cracked? What do you mean? I have the original box and disk that says on the EA label: IBM XT, PC, PCjr, COMPAQ PC does not equal DOS. It is a bootable disk, like Pinball Construction Set, Music Construction Set, Dr J. and Larry Bird go One on One, and other conversions. You stick the disk in and turn on the PC, and it boots directly using custom code. The fact that it is NOT a DOS executable makes it valuable because unless it is cracked it is impossible to play on a modern machine without jumping though hoops. Check http://www.oldskool.org/pc/flopper/ for some more info. Cracking bootable games is a black art -- and converting them to .EXE files is even blacker. There's a link to Retrograde Station off of the Flopper page mentioned above that lists a large number of bootables that I've helped supply and crack, if you're interested. Most were extremely rare until we supplied them to the world. You know, noble cause and all that. :-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard boldly stated: Lee K. Seitz wrote: them in to get one.) Many people have it at the top of their wanted list, but (even discounting one-of-a-kind prototypes) there are certainly other games that are rarer. What's rarer than a one-of-a-kind prototype? I thought prototypes were the Holy Grail of cart collecting... Let me restate what I said in a way that's perhaps vaguely more intelligible: Many people have it (Chase the Chuck Wagon) at the top of their wanted list, but there are certainly other games that are rarer than CtCW. And I'm not talking about one-of-a-kind prototypes. -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Okay, well the word has come back from Jon, and the answer is...inconclusive. He said there wasn't one when he left Epyx to form Free Fall Associates in 81 (which makes sense, of course). However, there could have been one made later on. I do know that there was a C-64 version made in 83 so it's possible that a DOS version was also made. Hugh -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Jim, I've sent Jon Freeman a note asking if a DOS version of CCC exists. He made the game and has an excellent memory, so I should be able to let you know soon. Why isn't Quest for the Ring at the top of my list? You should read my thoughts about what makes a game valuable. It can be found at: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/collectibles.htm But I'll paste it here as well: A collectible computer game is a game that is more valuable than the average game that can be purchased in the store today. GOTCHA does not presume to determine prices for classic games; instead value is used here as a measurement of desirability for classic gaming enthusiasts. Game value will constantly fluctuate based upon the whims of collectors; however, a classic game generally will have greater value if it meets one of these criteria: 1)It is a great game. A great game is like a great work of art. Veteran gamers still remember and desire these games. Future generations will learn about them as classics. 2)It is a rare game. More people start collecting computer games every day. As more people become involved, less classic games will be available for the others. Therefore the games that were produced in lower quantities or with low survival rates are often highly sought after. Just like any business, there is a law of supply and demand that can raise a game's value. Keep in mind that not all rare games are valuable. If a game was not a great game (see #1) it may have been rare for a good reason...nobody wanted it. If that is the case, it still may be unwanted. 3)It is a particularly old game. In computer gaming terms, anything from 1983 or earlier fits this category. Old games are generally desirable because they were often produced in lower quantities and have lower survival rates (see #2). While many of them may not be great (see #1) by today's standards, they are often groundbreaking and therefore deserve recognition. Much like Edison's original films, they have historical value if not artistic value. Old games are not necessarily rare. For example, 1979's Star Raiders is still readily available, mostly because it was a great game and very popular. It also came in cartridge format and durable packaging, which gives it a very good survival rate. 4)It is in good condition. A game's condition probably has the most profound effect on its value. See GOTCHA's Conditions page for the various grades. Obviously, the better the condition, the more valuable the game. However, condition alone can't make a game collectible. Condition is a modifier of value on an already collectible game. Of course, the most valuable games meet all four criteria above. -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 5:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Pedro Quaresma wrote: Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, right? No? :) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. Yes, but you still need the software. But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on extreme situations Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? Trinkets are way cool, I agree, but the software is the entire point they were created in the first place. Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies Again, special case -- the Dragon edition was specifically assembled and marketed as a collector's edition. Most software (sadly) isn't this way. Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: Okay, well the word has come back from Jon, and the answer is...inconclusive. He said there wasn't one when he left Epyx to form Free Fall Associates in 81 (which makes sense, of course). However, there could have been one made later on. That is exactly the answer I got from the programmer of the original Rescue on Fractalus. And when I asked Will Harvey about the PC version of Music Construction Set, he said There's a PC version? This is why the PC versions of these programs are even more rare than the rare games they were ported from. I do know that there was a C-64 version made in 83 so it's possible that a DOS version was also made. You mean PC. PC != DOS. For hard-core PC collectors, this is significant. For all you other guys, never mind ;-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
I think it's too Tolkeinesque. My company is looking into a game based on the Lord of the Rings...believe it or not, the caretakers of the Tolken estate would probably slap you with a cease and desist if this ever became official! Sad but true!:-) Hugh But in this case the name has absolutely nothing to do with Hobbits. Nevertheless, would you please suggest a different one? Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Pedro Quaresma wrote: I thought of habyt, hobit, but ended up with hobbyt, how does it sound? Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. Unless you're grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: Pedro Quaresma wrote: I thought of habyt, hobit, but ended up with hobbyt, how does it sound? Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. You have just stated that about 50% of game collectors in the world, and including reknown ones like Jason P. Cobb suffer from a mental disorder. Bravo! You have superseeded yourself. Unless you're grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? If you ask questions like the one above, it makes me wonder, do you _really_ collect games? OK, here's the short answer: a) When they're different versions b) when they are sold in a bundle in which I wanted some other thing from it c) When it's sold really really really cheap. Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote, Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, wouldn't you buy them all? =) Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) Nah, it's the other way around: the market is trying to corner me into buying more! ;) As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). E huh h... I'll stick to habbyt I think. Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your base are belong to us http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). Why complete it? I have no problem referring to Pedro as an OCCID. ;-D -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: Hugh Falk wrote, Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, wouldn't you buy them all? =) Yes, but of course that is a rare theoretical case that would probably never happen. E huh h... I'll stick to habbyt I think. I like OCCID myself. As in, I'm an OCCID. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Plus every Moonstone in Ultima VI is a little bit different. Thus you're getting a unique item with each copy you obtain! B-) - Original Message - From: Hugh Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:47 AM Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Pedro Quaresma wrote: I thought of habyt, hobit, but ended up with hobbyt, how does it sound? Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. Unless you're grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who collects anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. It would explain a lot of odd, quirkish behavior. And I myself am mildly obsessive-compulsive in other areas of my life besides collecting. I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the shrinkwrap on. I'm this way with my Infocoms (you just have to be able to get at the props), but I've got to know: If you get a shrinked copy BEFORE you get an opened copy, do you personally (1) break the wrap first and risk not being able to appreciate another wrapped copy for a long long time, or (2) hang onto the wrapped copy until you find another wrapped copy or one that's already been opened, and take the chance that the disk media will go bad while you're waiting? Jim, from what you write after this statement it sounds like you're definitely in the first category... How about everyone else? (!!!) Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. This raises an interesting dilemma, and the main reason I continually refuse to open it: Suppose I did break the wrap, I went to copy the disk... and it's already bad? The retrogamers are upset because they won't be able to play it after all. I'm out my shrinkwrapped package with absolutely nothing to show for it. But there's no way to tell that until I do crack it. Classic Schroedinger's Cat. I don't gamble with my collection. (I've dealt with my other reasons in Shoppe columns enough times that I won't bore you reciting them again here.) Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value on the diskette than the entire package. I've thought about this one for a long time, and yes, the software is definitely worth less to me than the package. Why? Because the package is PHYSICAL. Only a certain number of game packages were ever produced. Once all the others have been lost or thrown out, that's it. Mine is the only one left, and there will never be any more. But software does not exist in any physical sense. One very last copy easily becomes 8 million copies. So it's far easier to obtain and thus of far less value to someone who prizes rarity. Me personally, if I crack open a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is nearly worthless for me. Exactly. So why take the chance? (BTW, if you ever open any rare adventure games that turn out to have bad disks, I'll cut you a good deal on those nearly worthless items. B-) What good is a game that you CAN'T PLAY? :-) Like you said, for admiring. (Otherwise why keep shrinkwraps at all?) And it's an excellent catalyst for long theoretical discussions like this one. B-) The thing is (using Cyborg as an example), you CAN play it... provided you're willing to expend a little extra effort and download an Apple II emulator and the disk image. This exists on the web, I've seen it. The problem I've run into is that there are so many picky-shit players out there who absolutely MUST play the PC version, nothing else will do. They don't have pepperoni pizza, only sausage, so I guess I'll just go hungry. It's a little hard to feel sorry for people like that. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
C.E. Forman wrote: So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who collects anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. It would explain a lot of odd, quirkish behavior. And I myself am mildly obsessive-compulsive in other areas of my life besides collecting. I think anyone who collects anything fits this criteria. Something for a thesis study, no doubt. I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the shrinkwrap on. I'm this way with my Infocoms (you just have to be able to get at the props), but I've got to know: If you get a shrinked copy BEFORE you get an opened copy, do you personally (1) break the wrap first and risk not being able to appreciate another wrapped copy for a long long time, or (2) hang onto the wrapped copy until you find another wrapped copy or one that's already been opened, and take the chance that the disk media will go bad while you're waiting? Jim, from what you write after this statement it sounds like you're definitely in the first category... How about everyone else? I'm definitely in the first category. I crack the wrap. And you'll just love this one: Sometimes I buy a third so that I can cut up the manual. Yes, I cut all the pages out of the manual. This is so I can get the best possible scan of the manual pages for creating an archival quality PDF of them (the stuff on Underdogs is mostly crap). (!!!) Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. This raises an interesting dilemma, and the main reason I continually refuse to open it: Suppose I did break the wrap, I went to copy the disk... and it's already bad? The retrogamers are upset because they won't be able to play it after all. I'm out my shrinkwrapped package with absolutely nothing to show for it. But there's no way to tell that until I do crack it. Classic Schroedinger's Cat. I don't gamble with my collection. It's definitely a classic schroedinger's cat. There's just no way to know. And so we wait for another copy to turn up. (I've dealt with my other reasons in Shoppe columns enough times that I won't bore you reciting them again here.) What, you have other reasons? :-) I think the above is the best reason. I totally support you, BTW -- it just sucks for both of us. Somewhere, someday, another copy will turn up. We hope. Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value on the diskette than the entire package. I've thought about this one for a long time, and yes, the software is definitely worth less to me than the package. Why? Because the package is PHYSICAL. Only a certain number of game packages were ever produced. Once all the others have been lost or thrown out, that's it. Mine is the only one left, and there will never be any more. But software does not exist in any physical sense. One very last copy easily becomes 8 million copies. So it's far easier to obtain and thus of far less value to someone who prizes rarity. This is because you (and most collectors) value the package, whereas some people value the games themselves. I collect mostly for the games themselves -- I truly appreciate the work and effort that went into an older game, because the designers had a lot more hurdles to jump on such old hardware. This goes across all genres, including sports games (which I don't personally play but still collect out of respect). Me personally, if I crack open a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is nearly worthless for me. Exactly. So why take the chance? (BTW, if you ever open any rare adventure games that turn out to have bad disks, I'll cut you a good deal on those nearly worthless items. B-) Yes, you and the entire mailing list I'm sure :-) The thing is (using Cyborg as an example), you CAN play it... provided you're willing to expend a little extra effort and download an Apple II emulator and the disk image. This exists on the web, I've seen it. The problem I've run into is that there are so many picky-shit players out there who absolutely MUST play the PC version, nothing else will do. They don't have pepperoni pizza, only sausage, so I guess I'll just go hungry. It's a little hard to feel sorry for people like that. Agreed, but this isn't the reason I would like to see it copied; I like to compare different ports of games. I get a large amount of enjoyment of comparing and contrasting the following: - The original version of a game - The PC conversion (PC was powerful at the time but lacked decent graphics and sound) - The Mac conversion (2-color
