Re: [Talk-transit] local_ref problem around Anerley in NAPTAN
1) Would it make sense to seek permision from TfL to derive labelling information from their website maps. It's such a rich source of info, it'd be a pity not to try. They're a bit daft putting copyright on their spider diagrams - if I were them, I'd want them to be copied. 2) I don't like the idea of ways for platforms, except possibly for the limited case where you've got one platform on each side. It's just not extendable. They should be areas. Sublettering for parts of platforms should probably be on nodes, representing the point on the platform that's the midpoint for boarding a train that stops at that platform (it will be in the timetable system as 2a, and a notional router ought to direct you to that point). If a platform is split into 2a and 2b, you probably need three nodes - 2a/2b and 2 (for trains that take up the full length). Richard On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.comwrote: 2009/9/2 Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk That was ages ago that I done that. I have added those extra details to a few stations, in some cases even adding the platform numbers. It does become more difficult when there are island platforms. The reason why I have been adding them is from a desire to know how to access the station, and how to access the platforms. It is also an increased detail thing. I had a discussion about island platforms on the wiki a while back (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/unified_stoparea#Sheffield). When I mapped Sheffield Station ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/?relation=79249) I noted that some platforms have up to 6 different names (2A, 2B, 3, 4, 5A, 5B). The options as I see it are: * stick all the names in a single ref= tag, semi-colon or comma separated (the former seems to be the convention?) * add the names to the stopping points (the node on the actual railway way). * splitting the platform way into different ways (eg two halves) and then tagging those separately (although this still leaves you the problem of different names for the different 'edges'). * doing something complicated with relations. Thoughts? Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] local_ref problem around Anerley in NAPTAN
I'm not sure I like the idea of a 2 way on top of a shorter 2a and 2b way; hence my instinctive preference for nodes in the complicated situations. It can also be unclear where one subplatform starts and ends (especially where the split does't reflect a signalling berth, as is common in Germany, for instance). However, I can't really see the harm in using ways in the simple situation, and equally the full platform face name could be a way, but I'd make subplatform locations nodes rather than ways. The length of a platform could equally well be recorded as a length= tag on a node; the info is on the NR website if you know where to look - and have permission to use it. And the fact that it may not _yet_ render is - ahem - not relevant. Richard On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.comwrote: On 2 Sep 2009, at 16:27, Richard Mann wrote: 2) I don't like the idea of ways for platforms, except possibly for the limited case where you've got one platform on each side. It's just not extendable. They should be areas. Sublettering for parts of platforms should probably be on nodes, representing the point on the platform that's the midpoint for boarding a train that stops at that platform (it will be in the timetable system as 2a, and a notional router ought to direct you to that point). If a platform is split into 2a and 2b, you probably need three nodes - 2a/2b and 2 (for trains that take up the full length). Personally I find linear ways pretty satisfactory for platforms, which often have no more width than a footpath after all (which are also tagged as linear features)/ Possibly we should use areas for larger platforms (ie the paved/tarmac area) with highway=pedestrian;area=yes and then add railway=platform ways to the edges of the area as required. Sub platforms can also be linear ways for their actual extent (I don't like using nodes for sub-platforms because they do have an extent which can be measured and is sometimes be important). For a platform that serves two tracks, one of either side then an area should be used with the two different sides having appropriate linear 'platforms' associated with them. I am not sure how to represent a set of steps coming down to a point in the middle of an area though. One reason to use linear ways for now is because we already have the tools to build, render and route models that use them. Areas are fine with side accesses, but not top and bottom accesses. Regards, Peter ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] local_ref problem around Anerley in NAPTAN
2009/9/2 Péter Connell p...@connell.plus.com: Isn't different names what name/loc_name/alt_name/nat_name c. are for? Where they differ I would probably prefer name: what it says on the flag e.g. Woodhouse Street Holborn Terrace loc_name: the most common name people/bus drivers/timetables would use e.g. Charing Cross Shops alt_name: (where applicable) where timetables show something different still e.g. old name of pubs, pubs that have closed etc. (though the old King's Head could be a loc_name I guess) nat_name: what it says in NaPTAN Nah, just use naptan:CommonName for what NaPTAN says, as it is imported, there's no point changing it, since it wont make any difference upstream. All the other suggestions are good. In most cases CommonName and name should be the same, but TfL just don't like us... though obviously where name is the same as some of these you wouldn't use them. I would tend to assume all this data is worth capturing rather than just deferring to NaPTAN's superiority as it is buggy in some places... (and it its purpose is really for helping PTI pros identify bus stops rather than for passengers?) Would appreciate anyone's views Péter -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] local_ref problem around Anerley in NAPTAN
Peter The commonname and indicator fields in NaPTAN are designed ONLY for public facing information. I do not disagree that compliance with guidance is not 100% still in some regions - but there is a high level of compliance in many regions, particularly in the SE, EM and EA regions and London. Best wishes Roger -Original Message- From: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Péter Connell Sent: 02 September 2009 17:15 To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] local_ref problem around Anerley in NAPTAN Isn't different names what name/loc_name/alt_name/nat_name c. are for? Where they differ I would probably prefer name: what it says on the flag e.g. Woodhouse Street Holborn Terrace loc_name: the most common name people/bus drivers/timetables would use e.g. Charing Cross Shops alt_name: (where applicable) where timetables show something different still e.g. old name of pubs, pubs that have closed etc. (though the old King's Head could be a loc_name I guess) nat_name: what it says in NaPTAN though obviously where name is the same as some of these you wouldn't use them. I would tend to assume all this data is worth capturing rather than just deferring to NaPTAN's superiority as it is buggy in some places... (and it its purpose is really for helping PTI pros identify bus stops rather than for passengers?) Would appreciate anyone's views Péter Richard Mann wrote: NaPTAN has node info; I was thinking more of deriving way and relation info. Richard On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Roger Slevin ro...@slevin.plus.com mailto:ro...@slevin.plus.com wrote: TfL supplies its data to NaPTAN and this is the national official source of stop names. I would therefore ask that OSM focuses on using the official source of data and reports discrepancies which I can then take up with the responsible people in TfL thanks Roger *From:* talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] *On Behalf Of *Richard Mann *Sent:* 02 September 2009 16:27 *To:* Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics *Subject:* Re: [Talk-transit] local_ref problem around Anerley in NAPTAN 1) Would it make sense to seek permision from TfL to derive labelling information from their website maps. It's such a rich source of info, it'd be a pity not to try. They're a bit daft putting copyright on their spider diagrams - if I were them, I'd want them to be copied. 2) I don't like the idea of ways for platforms, except possibly for the limited case where you've got one platform on each side. It's just not extendable. They should be areas. Sublettering for parts of platforms should probably be on nodes, representing the point on the platform that's the midpoint for boarding a train that stops at that platform (it will be in the timetable system as 2a, and a notional router ought to direct you to that point). If a platform is split into 2a and 2b, you probably need three nodes - 2a/2b and 2 (for trains that take up the full length). Richard On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com mailto:fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/2 Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk mailto:sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk That was ages ago that I done that. I have added those extra details to a few stations, in some cases even adding the platform numbers. It does become more difficult when there are island platforms. The reason why I have been adding them is from a desire to know how to access the station, and how to access the platforms. It is also an increased detail thing. I had a discussion about island platforms on the wiki a while back (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/unified_stoparea#S heffield). When I mapped Sheffield Station (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?relation=79249) I noted that some platforms have up to 6 different names (2A, 2B, 3, 4, 5A, 5B). The options as I see it are: * stick all the names in a single ref= tag, semi-colon or comma separated (the former seems to be the convention?) * add the names to the stopping points (the node on the actual railway way). * splitting the platform way into different ways (eg two halves) and then tagging those separately (although this still leaves you the problem of different names for the different 'edges'). * doing something complicated with relations. Thoughts? Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
I'll go over what the mapper did in Ireland, which to me is the clearest case of (at least) reckless incompetence (an ill that can be cured through communication, but only with two-way communication): * All motorway under construction marked complete. Including adding amateurish (wrong way, driving on right) stubs to make the pieces connect. * Most long-distance dual-carriageways up-tagged to motorways, including the changing of refs (e.g. N7-M7) * Slip roads on the up-classified sections retagged to motorway (not motorway_link) In all, about 2-200km of road were retagged with no basis whatsoever But some dual carriageway *has* been upgraded to motorway recently - August 28th - 294km worth - (including some sections under construction) See http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10193-PRESS_RELEASE1_-0.DOC Having said that, I reviewed some changes done in Derbyshire in the UK and they looked horribly wrong. Didn't seem to move any nodes, but road numbers were changed, road classifications changed without any clear indication as to why. Some highway=primary reclassified as highway=secondary with fabricated B-road numbers. Some fairly minor roads upgraded to highway=secondary or highway=primary, again with fabricated route numbers. I'll be happy to revert these particular edits. Most of the edits are not in areas I know well enough. Most seem to be in Iceland. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type
Andy Allan gravitystorm at gmail.com writes: By analogy, when adding a street to OSM, most editors do not just show a blank textbox and expect the user to enter key=value pairs manually. You need more understanding of the history of how OSM grew - the editors did used to just throw up blank textboxes and everything worked fine. The usage came first, then consensus, then presets. Hmm, you have a point. But still, what worked back in the early days of the project, when a small number of fervent OSMites wandered the desert with GPS devices surviving on honey and locusts, is not necessarily the best answer for a much bigger user base. Certainly the project gets far more contributions now than a few years back, and while there are several factors that contribute to that (the aerial imagery, momentum, and so on), I would suggest that one reason is we have user-friendly OSM editors which provide clickable choices rather than expecting you to remember tags. (I know that when I started mapping I didn't enter some POIs or information because there wasn't a menu item for them in Merkaartor. Mostly, I just didn't think of adding them.) Remember we are discussing meta-information about GPS traces rather than the map itself. And there are some important differences between map data and GPS data. If something is tagged vaguely or in a non-standard way on the map, then it can always be cleaned up later. amenity=hotel can be changed to leisure=hotel; note=This is a pub can be changed to amenity=pub. But with a GPS trace that isn't clearly labelled, unless you can contact the original uploader and get them to remember the details, the information is lost. Another person on this list mentioned that he didn't think of tagging traces with the mode of transport used. There's no prompt for it when you upload a file, and so most people don't. Similarly, I never thought until now of adding the model of GPS I used, until by chance someone happened to mention it on the mailing list. And even now that I know I should add it, it's far from obvious how to do so. If there were a simple text box labelled 'GPS unit used' then I would have filled it out on every trace uploaded, and so, I assume, would hundreds of others. Maybe this is the point you're missing - we already have conventions on tagging GPS traces. car outnumbers motorcar by orders of magnitude. Let me explain what information I think is useful, and then it may become clear why the current single textbox is inadequate. When you view GPS traces in an editor to add or adjust ways, it's important to see how they were made. If you have a mixture of foot and vehicle tracks, then at best you can add ways as footways, unless you have other information. If you know that the tracks are all made by motor vehicles and nothing else, then you can trace them and tag as roads. What happens if I drive in a car then get out and walk? If I tag the trace as 'car', does that mean that the whole trace was made in a motor vehicle, or just part of it? Someone viewing it in an editor and looking for 'car' traces might mistakenly trace my route and make it a road suitable for motor vehicles, when in fact I was just following a footpath for that section of the trace. Perhaps, you might suggest, all methods of transport used should be tagged. So if the trace has 'car,foot' then it is a mixture of the two, but just 'car' would mean exclusively in a vehicle. That could work, but you have to be sure that the person tagging their GPS trace did indeed follow this convention. (Should they add a 'following_gps_trace_tagging_convention_version_1' tag to their traces?) But also, every editor would need to have a list of all method of transport tags. If I tag a route as 'car,pogo_stick' but then someone loads it into JOSM, which doesn't know that pogo_stick is a method of transport, then it would display as a motor vehicle GPS trace. (Another fun wrinkle is that 'car' is a placename in some parts of the world, but we just jumble place names, transport, and other things all together in a freeform list of tags.) However, if I knew that the tagging was based on a simple UI that clearly explained the choices (such as the checkboxes proposed earlier in this thread) then I would be happy to trust it and use it for making new ways. Again this is different to tagging objects on the map. If I see an object tagged with building=apartments then it's pretty clear that the person doing that tagging intended the same meaning I am thinking of. For English speakers, the tags are fairly self-explanatory. Not so with something like 'foot'. I have made GPS traces on foot which were not following footpaths at all, but clambering over rocks. So should they be tagged as 'foot'? More to the point, if I see a trace uploaded by somebody else tagged 'foot', can I assume that they were following paths or not? I really have no idea what they had in mind, and the tag name by itself is not
Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009, Ed Avis wrote: Another person on this list mentioned that he didn't think of tagging traces with the mode of transport used. There's no prompt for it when you upload a file, and so most people don't. So I drive somewhere, walk a bit to get some details, unload the bike, cycle some, drive home and now you think that I am going to split a trace into what I was doing where? If I'm solo driving I stop and start on lonely roads to get all the markers, get out of the car to photograph stuff, with the gps unit now attached to the camera, so it can be used for better geo-tagging what information will you get from this trace on the average speed? and how will this info relate to the average speed of a person on a normal trip? I ask this because you are thinking about collecting information and you aren't thinking about the relevance of the gathered information to the intended use of this information. It is poor planning to collect information without working out for what you are going to use this information. You cannot assume that the information is going to be relevant. Neither random nor compulsive information gathering are going to add value to the data. Similarly, I never thought until now of adding the model of GPS I used, until by chance someone happened to mention it on the mailing list. And even now that I know I should add it, it's far from obvious how to do so. If there were a simple text box labelled 'GPS unit used' then I would have filled it out on every trace uploaded, and so, I assume, would hundreds of others. While the average OSMer has one GPS, I confess to owning 3, and having had a number of others pass through my hands, all of which I have used and tested before sending elsewhere in the world. No, I am not going to add in which GPS unit I used. I use them as most suited to me on the day - availability of bike mount, accuracy, whether it takes standard batteries or needs a fancy recharger - and by the time I sort out my traces and photos I may no longer know which GPS I used. And what will this add to the data?? Zilch (although I actually mean another Oz phrase, which would be offensive in print for most). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Richard Bullock rb...@cantab.net: I'll go over what the mapper did in Ireland, which to me is the clearest case of (at least) reckless incompetence (an ill that can be cured through communication, but only with two-way communication): * All motorway under construction marked complete. Including adding amateurish (wrong way, driving on right) stubs to make the pieces connect. * Most long-distance dual-carriageways up-tagged to motorways, including the changing of refs (e.g. N7-M7) * Slip roads on the up-classified sections retagged to motorway (not motorway_link) In all, about 2-200km of road were retagged with no basis whatsoever But some dual carriageway *has* been upgraded to motorway recently - August 28th - 294km worth - (including some sections under construction) See http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10193-PRESS_RELEASE1_-0.DOC Having said that, I reviewed some changes done in Derbyshire in the UK and they looked horribly wrong. Didn't seem to move any nodes, but road numbers were changed, road classifications changed without any clear indication as to why. Some highway=primary reclassified as highway=secondary with fabricated B-road numbers. Some fairly minor roads upgraded to highway=secondary or highway=primary, again with fabricated route numbers. I'll be happy to revert these particular edits. Most of the edits are not in areas I know well enough. Most seem to be in Iceland. Richard Please leave the ways untouched for now, it'll be easier to revert the whole changeset in the long run. -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type
Liz edodd at billiau.net writes: Another person on this list mentioned that he didn't think of tagging traces with the mode of transport used. So I drive somewhere, walk a bit to get some details, unload the bike, cycle some, drive home and now you think that I am going to split a trace into what I was doing where? Not at all - I do just the same thing. I've uploaded lots of traces which are a mixture of different transport modes. (If I were mapping a new area from scratch then I might take the trouble to turn my GPS off and on when getting off the bus so I could have separate foot vs vehicle traces, but I wouldn't bother just for everyday GPSing.) I ask this because you are thinking about collecting information and you aren't thinking about the relevance of the gathered information to the intended use of this information. The intended use is to add or adjust ways on the map based on GPS traces. Not every GPS trace corresponds to a way that exists - for example, some people make traces in aeroplanes, and they don't follow any street pattern. So it's useful to have some record of what kind of transport was used to make the trace. In the example you gave, you'd just mark the trace as 'mixed car / bike / foot'. Other people might upload a car-only trace and tag it as such, so that when someone is tracing it to add a new way, they can know for sure that this is a road suitable for cars. I'm not proposing that people spend half an hour assembling the exact combination of tags every time they upload a GPS trace. Quite the opposite. I think it would be a good idea to have a few simple checkboxes for [ ] car, [ ] bicycle, [ ] foot, so that it only takes a couple of seconds to add. No, I am not going to add in which GPS unit I used. Fine. Nobody says you have to. If you don't remember what GPS you used, don't tag it. It will be useful for some people to know that information. (Not me personally - I hadn't realized that the GPS model might be useful until someone mentioned it in this discussion. I think it is wanted by hardcore geo-anorak types who want to know whether the traces adjust for height above the earth's surface, or have reliable altitude measurements. I haven't needed that data myself when mapping, but if it's useful for somebody and quick to add, why not add it?) -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too widespread to be reverted manually. -- Bjarki Sigursveinsson bja...@gmail.com +354 8215644 Múlalandi 12 (403) 400 Ísafjörður, Iceland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Tom Hughes wrote: On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote: Richard Fairhurst wrote: Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing, although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green signs remain? I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary route which means it will have green signs. Tom In Scotland, Primary does mean Trunk. Jenny ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Richard Bullock rb...@cantab.net: But some dual carriageway *has* been upgraded to motorway recently - August 28th - 294km worth - (including some sections under construction) I know - I upgraded them. This mapper took all the bits that have not been upgraded, upgraded them anyway, and opened up all the under-construction sections for good measure. Random behaviour... Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type
2009/9/2 Liz ed...@billiau.net: So I drive somewhere, walk a bit to get some details, unload the bike, cycle some, drive home and now you think that I am going to split a trace into what I was doing where? If we had time stamps on traces properly you wouldn't need to, we could tell the mode of transport based on the time/distance between points. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:59 AM, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Pierenpier...@gmail.com wrote: And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins You're a gold-level member of the OSMF, right? Y'know, the level that means your annual membership fee is the same cost as a full time admin to do your beck and call, right? Don't speak like that... You can't resume any personal investment only based on money. Pieren is a great contributor, helping newbies on the french list, active on discution about all corner of the project, and even the developper of the Cadastre plugin for JOSM. As you are capitalizing all about money... time is money right ? I guess he is a diamond-level contributor... And what.. If you are not member of OSMF, you are not contributing to the project and you can't tell what you think ? Didn't think so. until a real revert in one click is possible from the interface like in wikipedia. You'll be waiting a loonnngg time for that then. Unless you have some l33t h4x0rz skills you're willing to share? He has. Using it to help mapping from French Cadastre... After all, everyone else who's worked on revert code has consistently said on these mailing lists oh yeah, a revert button would be trivial, I'll do it tomorrow. Oh, wait, no we didn't. This is not meaning we won't have one soon. I understand what it's like dealing with vandals, so I know why your annoyed. But please don't start demanding stuff on the mailing lists from other volunteers, admins or not, it's not going to get anything solved. Like under-estimating others... it's an open-crowd-project, every one can contribute, even by just clues or ideas. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : ste...@jabber.fr 0x39494CCB ste...@le-roux.info 2FF7 226B 552E 4709 03F0 6281 72D7 A010 3949 4CCB ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On 2 Sep 2009, at 13:18, Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too widespread to be reverted manually. I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an official email might help. Banning people is a possible last-resort, but this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place which should be done by the community. I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) should be dealt with by the community. I believe that we need better tools to do this. Let's learn from the many Wikipedia 'counter-vandalism' tools which are available for use.[1] I don't believe that anyone needs permission to develop, deploy or use such OSM counter-vandalism tools and would encourage people to do so. I would of course ask developers and users to follow the guidelines for bots.[2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_counter-vandalism_tools [2]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct Regards, Peter -- Bjarki Sigursveinsson bja...@gmail.com +354 8215644 Múlalandi 12 (403) 400 Ísafjörður, Iceland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too widespread to be reverted manually. It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his edits can be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert them all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Jennifer Campbell wrote: Tom Hughes wrote: On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote: Richard Fairhurst wrote: Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing, although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green signs remain? I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary route which means it will have green signs. Tom In Scotland, Primary does mean Trunk. Jenny - even in Scotland the Trunk routes are maintained by a central contract while Primary routes are now maintained by the local authorities. Some routes that were ORIGINALLY 'primary' have been declassified so that the local authorities are not required to maintain them to the same standard as required for a Primary/Trunk route. OSM still works to the format when ALL primary routes were maintained by central government and were identified by their 'green' Trunk route designation ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Peter Miller wrote: Banning people is a possible last-resort, but this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place which should be done by the community. Absolutely. If RR88 started messing with my beloved cycle routes I'd be straight in there with revert.pl. I would strongly encourage the Icelanders and the Irish to do the same, right now. You know the area; you know if an edit is right or wrong; you can make it right again. It might be helpful to create a wiki page to co-ordinate efforts, like this one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-tp25253451p25257965.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too widespread to be reverted manually. It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his edits can be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert them all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? I haven't looked through /all/ of his edits for Iceland. Currently he has 880 ways and 306 nodes to his name (user=RR8 in the XML) and I haven't gone through all his edits. But what I've looked at has been 100% harmful. He's re-classified highways in a manner that's inconsistent, arbitrary and completely ignores our previously established conventions[1]. Including marking some things that were highway=primary before as highway=trunk and introducing highway=motorway in Iceland (which has no motorways). 1. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Is:Map_Features#Highway ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an official email might help. this sounds reasonable Banning people is a possible last-resort, +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account and here you are again) but this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place which should be done by the community. +1 I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) no, IMHO that's no more graffiti but it's removing the covers of manholes, maybe even poisoning the drinking water reserve ;-). It is too big to remove manually. If like throwing a lot of paint-cluster-bombs over wide areas. Think of 880 ways in Ireland: that's too much to ask the community to do it manually. Reverts at that scale (if they are really 100% useless or harmful) should be dealt with in a more professional way than hitting 880 times h in potlatch. Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2009/9/2 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an official email might help. this sounds reasonable Banning people is a possible last-resort, +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account and here you are again) but this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place which should be done by the community. +1 I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) no, IMHO that's no more graffiti but it's removing the covers of manholes, maybe even poisoning the drinking water reserve ;-). It is too big to remove manually. If like throwing a lot of paint-cluster-bombs over wide areas. Think of 880 ways in Ireland: that's too much to ask the community to do it manually. Reverts at that scale (if they are really 100% useless or harmful) should be dealt with in a more professional way than hitting 880 times h in potlatch. Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. cheers, Martin The thread was started for consensus on whether the edits were vandalism, and what should be done. Now we're at a stage that we've confirmed it is 100% harmful, we can get them reverted. -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk wrote: It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his edits can be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert them all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? Oh yes simply. I'm interested in mass-reverting his edits in Iceland. Apparently the revert.pl script can be used for this. And it looks like around 60 changesets have been made by RR8 to Iceland: a...@aoeu:/tmp$ wget -q http://download.geofabrik.de/osm/europe/iceland.osm.bz2 2009-09-02 14:22:47 (138 KB/s) - `iceland.osm.bz2' saved [4204618/4204618] a...@aoeu:/tmp$ bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe 's/.*changeset=(.*?).*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n | wc -l 61 So to revert them all do I just do: 1. perl changeset.pl create ( note the id changeset.pl returns) 2. for vandal_id in $(bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe 's/.*changeset=(.*?).*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n); do perl revert.pl $vandal_id $CURRENT_CHANGESET; done I.e. revert the oldest changesets first. 3. perl changeset.pl close $CURRENT_CHANGESET Reverted edits by RR8 edits to Iceland. See OSM-talk ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2009/9/2 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an official email might help. this sounds reasonable I think it was said in this same thread that it was the DWG's task? Banning people is a possible last-resort, +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account and here you are again) You might want to see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Revert,_block,_ignore I think locking accounts should be one of the tools available to the community, maybe by means of a working group (not like the DWG which is separate from the community judging from Peter's words, and has response times and the not my problem attitude worthy of a serious committee-style working group) Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. Also not everybody can develop or deploy tools that can be used directly from osm website or affect other user's permissions, you do need a permission to do that. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Martin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. Exactly. Vandalism will increase as project popularity will increase and we are not ready to face that. You cannot rely on experienced/enabled community members as it will happen more and more often. The main site provides all opportunities for easy vandalism (e.g. the online editor) and the community has all opportunities to detect them (e.g. view contributors edits) but nothing to revert the 145 RR8 changesets in an easy way - or at least give a try. We understand that the revert might fail if someone changed the data again but contributors who doesn't want to use perl scripts can accept this and fix them manually. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Pieren wrote: The main site provides all opportunities for easy vandalism (e.g. the online editor) Come come - I'm still waiting for you to pass some more details about Cadastre over, so people can use Potlatch for something other than vandalism! (SCNR) and the community has all opportunities to detect them (e.g. view contributors edits) but nothing to revert the 145 RR8 changesets in an easy way Indeed. I guess we're just having this fairly futile discussion while we wait for the magic code-writing fairies to turn up. *waits* svn is that way - cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-tp25253451p25259239.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On 2 Sep 2009, at 14:54, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Bjarki Sigursveinsson wrote: I can confirm that the changes this user has made in Iceland are completely disruptive and illogical. The user has gone all around the country and either promoted or demoted roads in a seemingly random way without any regard to the established conventions of the Icelandic mapping community. I have tried communiating with this user but there have been no responses. The damage that has been done is way too widespread to be reverted manually. It does sound as if it has reached the point where NONE of his edits can be shown to be beneficial. So perhaps it is time simply to revert them all? Especially if he is unwilling to defend his actions? I haven't looked through /all/ of his edits for Iceland. Currently he has 880 ways and 306 nodes to his name (user=RR8 in the XML) and I haven't gone through all his edits. But what I've looked at has been 100% harmful. He's re-classified highways in a manner that's inconsistent, arbitrary and completely ignores our previously established conventions[1]. Including marking some things that were highway=primary before as highway=trunk and introducing highway=motorway in Iceland (which has no motorways). 1. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Is:Map_Features#Highway I think we are needing to agree the protocol on the wiki for responding the vandalism. I have updated the response section of the vandalism page. Please do edit away until on the page and discuss the issues here until it is right. [1] I suggest that where we find someone who has performed a significant number of edits which appear to be gratiffi (be it mindless, malicious, or whatever) and possibly many others that are of no clear benefit and none or very few that on casual inspection of a sample of edits are well researched then we should normally message them and if we don't get a response within 24-48 hours we revert them. If the edits are of a high-profile nature (such as these) we revert first and then message. We also add reverts to an appropriate wiki page to say what we have done. We need a tool that will revert even if further edits have been made on top, and to highlight any ways that require manual attention because the reversion is too complex. We also need a tool to revert the revert in case the reversion was in itself vandalism or ill- thought out. Fyi, we still need this tool to respond for Liam123 who still has many many current edits in the Essex/Kent areas (and also possibly some still in Germany and Spain which he also fiddled with). None of this needs the permission of the Foundation, we are quite able to do this ourselves in the usual way and as Michael Collinson suggested at the AGM the Foundation should only be there to do the things that the community is not able to do (ie Finance and Legal). [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism Regards, Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS gadgets can get you jailed and fined
I've left my HCX on in flights more than once. I get a very nice trace if it's facing up and sitting in my hand luggage in the overhead locker. I really must remember to turn the darn thing off when boarding a flight as I really don't like the idea of taking it out and doing so during the flight ;-) Andy -Original Message- From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Donald Allwright Sent: 31 August 2009 9:54 PM To: Arlindo Pereira; talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] GPS gadgets can get you jailed and fined Wow, such a crazyness... I tried to log a flight with my GPS-enabled cellphone (a Nokia N95), but it didn't worked after a minute. http://sportstracker.nokia.com/nts/workoutdetail/index.do?id=569496 http://sportstracker.nokia.com/nts/workoutdetail/index.do?id=569496 (forgive the google maps background, as this GPX is useless for mapping I didn't uploaded it to OSM) But sometimes I run into some problems using my smartphone on a plane. It happened - twice - that the cabin crew didn't allowed me to use the phone, even after explaining it was on the airplane (offline) mode. I managed to log a flight from France back to England, using a Garmin Legend HCX, purely out of interest. Even though it isn't a phone, doesn't look like a phone and is not capable of transmitting anything, I was careful to be discreet for the whole flight. Even if it didn't contravene any 'rules'* I was aware that other people can often draw very strange conclusions if you're doing something that they don't consider normal. *I think they usually say something about not using electronic devices during take off and landing, but aren't specific about what. However I've never seen anyone remove the battery from their digital watch, so I guess this is something that is enforced, at most, inconsistently. Donald ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Hi, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: So to revert them all do I just do: 1. perl changeset.pl create ( note the id changeset.pl returns) 2. for vandal_id in $(bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe 's/.*changeset=(.*?).*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n); do perl revert.pl $vandal_id $CURRENT_CHANGESET; done I.e. revert the oldest changesets first. 3. perl changeset.pl close $CURRENT_CHANGESET Reverted edits by RR8 edits to Iceland. See OSM-talk revert.pl should be able to combine steps 1-3 for you, if you just call perl revert.pl $vandal_id. There was a bug in the SVN version which I hopefully just fixed to allow this. I would suggest to replace sort | uniq | sort -n by sort -run (reverse order). That way, if the vandal created a node in changeset 1 and used it to build a way in changeset 2, you first delete the way and later the node... rather than the other way round which would fail. None of this is failure safe but it's worth a try. - What I would probably do is download all changesets, merge them into one, sort it suitably, and then try to undo the changes en bloc. This would not necessarily work better, just give me the feeling of being more in control. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: I think we are needing to agree the protocol on the wiki for responding the vandalism. Yes, this does seem to be a key part of our difficulty here. The problem is that any random mapper could be the next person who has to deal with vandalism, and most will be ill equipped, won't know the drill, but probably _will_ assume that Somebody Else(tm) has a process that can fix it. At this point I think it's also worth considering that when these kinds of discussions get to the level of heat that this one reached it ends up with the anger of good mappers directed against other good mappers, which is not at all how the anger should be directed... Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Tom Hughes schrieb: On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote: I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks like the worst form of vandalism. As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm perfectly capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate authority to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, jury and executioner in these matters. But Dermot McNally already pointed out that this *is* vandalism, at least in Ireland: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041412.html http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041397.html What more do you want? A Plane-Ticket to fly there and check for yourself? Sorry for that.. I'm seeing people doing investigation, finding things are going mad, reporting this - and getting ignored. What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner. Just as e.g. Dermot McNally did. A group of people demanding that something by done on a mailing list does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act. What/Who does constitute a legitimate authority for you? Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Hi I'd like to do a Brainstorming about how a Revert-Tool could look like, that is more open to the Community, can be used without programming knowledge and is able to to reverts fast. Please throw in you're ideas, thoughts, whatever you have to say. I'll add my own Ideas in a separate mail. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
I'd like to do a Brainstorming about how a Revert-Tool could look like, that is more open to the Community, can be used without programming knowledge and is able to to reverts fast. I'm thinking of a process like this: - Identify the Changeset you'd like to be reverted. - Go to tool and throw in the Changeset-ID - tool downloads the Changeset and the current state of all members - tool shows you a list of all members of the Changeset - highlight conflicting changes (tag- or position-mismatch) - highlight conflicts that could be reverted automatically (e.g. in the malicious changeset highway=secondary was changed to highway=track and on the current node it's highway=secondary again, or the node/way added in the malicious changeset was deleted already) - propose actions on nodes/ways that must be edited by hand (like jsom does when connecting two ways with conflicting tags) - when all conflicts are resolved tool generates a voting-url - post this url to the appropriate mailing-list (global and local) and let the community vote for your revert-proposal - we'll need some kind of authentication here - when 100 (20?, 50?, 1000?) people said yes to your proposal, the tool applies your revert - if this produces further conflicts the author should be able to correct them (and only them!) without another vote. - there should be a history when who reverted what - each revert should have an explanation with a minimal length (e.g. 30 words) Please plug your own thoughts in :) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
hi. 1.) with great power comes great responsibility! 2.) the number of votes should depend on the complexity (number of affected objects?) 3.) mailing lists might be flooded because every single (and simple) revert request is sent to a complete list - of course I don't know how many reverts might be requested per time generally it's an idea worth thinking about it because right now only a few people are able to conduct such complex operations properly - but remember 1.) gary68 On Wed, 2009-09-02 at 20:23 +0200, Peter Körner wrote: I'd like to do a Brainstorming about how a Revert-Tool could look like, that is more open to the Community, can be used without programming knowledge and is able to to reverts fast. I'm thinking of a process like this: - Identify the Changeset you'd like to be reverted. - Go to tool and throw in the Changeset-ID - tool downloads the Changeset and the current state of all members - tool shows you a list of all members of the Changeset - highlight conflicting changes (tag- or position-mismatch) - highlight conflicts that could be reverted automatically (e.g. in the malicious changeset highway=secondary was changed to highway=track and on the current node it's highway=secondary again, or the node/way added in the malicious changeset was deleted already) - propose actions on nodes/ways that must be edited by hand (like jsom does when connecting two ways with conflicting tags) - when all conflicts are resolved tool generates a voting-url - post this url to the appropriate mailing-list (global and local) and let the community vote for your revert-proposal - we'll need some kind of authentication here - when 100 (20?, 50?, 1000?) people said yes to your proposal, the tool applies your revert - if this produces further conflicts the author should be able to correct them (and only them!) without another vote. - there should be a history when who reverted what - each revert should have an explanation with a minimal length (e.g. 30 words) Please plug your own thoughts in :) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 02/09/09 18:51, Peter Körner wrote: Tom Hughes schrieb: On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote: I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks like the worst form of vandalism. As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm perfectly capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate authority to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, jury and executioner in these matters. But Dermot McNally already pointed out that this *is* vandalism, at least in Ireland: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041412.html http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/041397.html What more do you want? A Plane-Ticket to fly there and check for yourself? Sorry for that.. I'm seeing people doing investigation, finding things are going mad, reporting this - and getting ignored. Not one single person has reported it to the Data Working Group as suggested by the wiki page that has already been referred to. What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner. Just as e.g. Dermot McNally did. Yes, but who appointed him as the arbiter? Whoever is making the decision needs to be selected by and accountable to the community in some way, not self-appointed. A group of people demanding that something by done on a mailing list does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act. What/Who does constitute a legitimate authority for you? Well that's the problem - the best thing we have at the moment is the foundation and it's working groups. In this case the Data Working Group is the appropriate one I guess. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
- tool shows you a list of all members of the Changeset ... for which we would need a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567 which includes the primitives, if possible even a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567/full. Currently, editors/offline tools would have to screen scrap /browse/changeset/123456 which includes information about the primities in the changeset -- Karl -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Im Auftrag von Peter Körner Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. September 2009 20:24 An: OSM Talk Betreff: Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools I'd like to do a Brainstorming about how a Revert-Tool could look like, that is more open to the Community, can be used without programming knowledge and is able to to reverts fast. I'm thinking of a process like this: - Identify the Changeset you'd like to be reverted. - Go to tool and throw in the Changeset-ID - tool downloads the Changeset and the current state of all members - tool shows you a list of all members of the Changeset - highlight conflicting changes (tag- or position-mismatch) - highlight conflicts that could be reverted automatically (e.g. in the malicious changeset highway=secondary was changed to highway=track and on the current node it's highway=secondary again, or the node/way added in the malicious changeset was deleted already) - propose actions on nodes/ways that must be edited by hand (like jsom does when connecting two ways with conflicting tags) - when all conflicts are resolved tool generates a voting-url - post this url to the appropriate mailing-list (global and local) and let the community vote for your revert-proposal - we'll need some kind of authentication here - when 100 (20?, 50?, 1000?) people said yes to your proposal, the tool applies your revert - if this produces further conflicts the author should be able to correct them (and only them!) without another vote. - there should be a history when who reverted what - each revert should have an explanation with a minimal length (e.g. 30 words) Please plug your own thoughts in :) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Hi 1.) with great power comes great responsibility! We'll have to distribute this responsibility to many shoulders and do it crowdsourced. 2.) the number of votes should depend on the complexity (number of affected objects?) that's cool.. 3.) mailing lists might be flooded because every single (and simple) revert request is sent to a complete list - of course I don't know how many reverts might be requested per time How about some kind of community within this tool, excluding the mailinglist or including it after 10% of the needed votes are done. We could have some lists like recent revert-requests, revert requests with the lowest number of votes to get people to vote for them. generally it's an idea worth thinking about it because right now only a few people are able to conduct such complex operations properly and that's not compatible with the osm approach of allowing anybody to commit data, from the nerd to the dau *) Peter *) sorry for that, i don't know how Lischen Müller is called in english ;) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Hi, Peter Körner wrote: - when all conflicts are resolved tool generates a voting-url I'm against voting. Voting is a way to take responsibility away from the individual. I think that in most cases we should strive to have individuals responsible for everything (just like with mapping - you don't suggest something which the community then votes upon, you just map). You break the roads in my village - I repair it. If it later turns out that I was too quick and indeed your edits were mostly good, then it is my fault and I have to take responsibility for this. This means that I will be careful with reverting stuff. On the other hand, if you create this voting apparatus then this works like a lynch mob where nobody actually feels responsible for anything. Later you have the dead newbie hanging from a tree and everybody says wasn't me!. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Karl Guggisberg schrieb: - tool shows you a list of all members of the Changeset ... for which we would need a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567 which includes the primitives, if possible even a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567/full. Currently, editors/offline tools would have to screen scrap /browse/changeset/123456 which includes information about the primities in the changeset We could do this from a planet.osm, a database-mirror, maybe the xapi could be extended. There are plenty of possibilities, i think. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
+1 agreed, its like me dropping in CanVec data everywhere, and people unaware of whats going on, might act in the offensive. And try to be 'helpful' and start drawing in more features as im copying them over. (not knowing that the file is freely available). I know a bit of Ireland (but not aware, and equally confused of the road classification over there.) it took a couple days of cycling to not turn the wrong way (just out of habbit) :). For the local area mappers, i would recommend the reverse approach. Assume that the user is 'just a newbie trying to be helpful'. Has anyone invited this user to a mapping party? Why not assume that the user is 10years old and just learning how to hack for the first time? Or learning how to make a batch file. Don't they teach that in basic computer programming class? When we learn that 'its been done before then its no longer fun. :() for the people being destructive. As everyone likes new things. If a live person offers to help, the user quickly learns that we are not a 'closed source' group, but a talented team of the worlds greatest computer geniuses, cartographers, and simply the best software developers there is. ... and volunteers at that. This is a tool for us brilliant minds to map the world. Id say why bother being frustrated at what 1 person who doesn't know what their doing? Why not focus on clearly mapping the area with more details all around? We all know that the mapper is a human. .. and we all make mistakes. When approached as a newbie mapper, you dont want to turn them off. ... just remember what it was like when you started. I remember How frustrating it was to learn all these details. It's a whole new paradigm thinking, let alone a new language.When enough people continue to approach it in a nice way, then that will turn off that user who just is playing. (it's hard to keep mad when everyone around you is happy :-) ... if you want to stay mad, you need to leave the room.) But anyway, im noticing chat about brainstorming ideas of how to quickly revert edits. Brainstorming is good, as long as we keep focused on the goal of a spiral going upwards to making a better wiki world map for the masses, than spiral down and focus on the few who want to be destructive. Happy mapping, Sam Vekemans Across Canada Trails On 9/2/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/2 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: I spoke to members of the Data Working Group recently and it seems clear to me (and them) that dealing with vandalism is in general a community problem, not their problem. They are mainly about dealing with those situations where a legal response is required such as copyright violation or where an official email might help. this sounds reasonable Banning people is a possible last-resort, +1. Even if it might not be very powerful (just create another account and here you are again) but this does not deal with removing graffiti or spotting it in the first place which should be done by the community. +1 I believe that monitoring of graffiti (which this is) no, IMHO that's no more graffiti but it's removing the covers of manholes, maybe even poisoning the drinking water reserve ;-). It is too big to remove manually. If like throwing a lot of paint-cluster-bombs over wide areas. Think of 880 ways in Ireland: that's too much to ask the community to do it manually. Reverts at that scale (if they are really 100% useless or harmful) should be dealt with in a more professional way than hitting 880 times h in potlatch. Not everybody is able to run revert.pl like Richard suggested, that's why some members of the community started this thread: to ask the more experienced/enabled community members for help in doing so. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
I'm against voting. Voting is a way to take responsibility away from the individual. I think that in most cases we should strive to have individuals responsible for everything (just like with mapping - you don't suggest something which the community then votes upon, you just map). But this could lead to reverting as a extended form of vandalism (which is much more effective!) You break the roads in my village - I repair it. If it later turns out that I was too quick and indeed your edits were mostly good, then it is my fault and I have to take responsibility for this. This means that I will be careful with reverting stuff. On the other hand, if you create this voting apparatus then this works like a lynch mob where nobody actually feels responsible for anything. Good point. Later you have the dead newbie hanging from a tree and everybody says wasn't me!. I love Hang-Newbee! (It's called Hang-Trainee in some companies afaik) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
For the local area mappers, i would recommend the reverse approach. Assume that the user is 'just a newbie trying to be helpful'. Has anyone invited this user to a mapping party? He'd have to responde to mail for that. Why not assume that the user is 10years old and just learning how to hack for the first time? Or learning how to make a batch file. Don't they teach that in basic computer programming class? He should be (or get) aware that hacking this way is not good at all, and we won't teach it to him by silently fixing the trail of crap he left behind.. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Well that's the problem - the best thing we have at the moment is the foundation and it's working groups. In this case the Data Working Group is the appropriate one I guess. I think a crowdsourced approach against vandalism would scale better than dedicated working-groups. See my Brainstorming on a tool for that. Sorry for my rough tone. I just was a little frustrated as I couldn't find my bottle opener. Now, with a cool beer to my right, i's much better. Btw. this would be a good strategy for RR8, too ;) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/2 Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu: Yes, but who appointed him as the arbiter? Whoever is making the decision needs to be selected by and accountable to the community in some way, not self-appointed. FFS Tom, you can't have it both ways. I understand and respect that you don't want the final decision resting, by default, with you as the man with the stick. This being so, you have to be prepared to assess the claims of individual mappers on their merits, having regard to the facts. I don't expect you to have prior knowledge of my body of work (and IMHO it's extensive), but a number of members of what is a fairly small Irish community also weighed in. We all presented the facts. And TBH, in the area I map, I _am_ self-appointed as a quality champion, such is the OSM just-do-it culture. I think the problem here is what looks to Joe mapper like mixed messages. The message that we should as much as possible fix vandalism ourselves at local level tells us that we shouldn't expect central intervention. The fact that, say, a copyright violator is hit with the stick of ban suggests OTOH that gross breaches of how-it-should-be-done _will_ be centrally sanctioned. And not enough of us have considered where the dividing line between the two should lie. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Hi, Karl Guggisberg wrote: - tool shows you a list of all members of the Changeset ... for which we would need a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567 which includes the primitives, if possible even a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567/full. You mean /api/0.6/changeset/1234567/download? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On 02/09/09 19:55, Dermot McNally wrote: 2009/9/2 Tom Hughest...@compton.nu: Yes, but who appointed him as the arbiter? Whoever is making the decision needs to be selected by and accountable to the community in some way, not self-appointed. FFS Tom, you can't have it both ways. I understand and respect that you don't want the final decision resting, by default, with you as the man with the stick. This being so, you have to be prepared to assess the claims of individual mappers on their merits, having regard to the facts. I absolutely am not going to get involved in evaluating the claims of individual mappers. Both because it would be an inappropriate conflict of interest and because I don't have the time. If the community wants to appoint somebody to do that then that's fine and I will be happy to act on that person's decision. I would not personally vote for such a system however. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
On 02/09/2009, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: I'm against voting. Voting is a way to take responsibility away from the individual. I think that in most cases we should strive to have individuals responsible for everything (just like with mapping - you don't suggest something which the community then votes upon, you just map). But this could lead to reverting as a extended form of vandalism (which is much more effective!) They you can use the tool again and just revert the revert. Currently, messing things up things is easy, even without any revert tool, reverting them (without asking someone with DB access to do the dirty job) is not so easy. With the tool, reverting will become much easier. And it would help not only against vandalism, but also against bugs introduced by some bot that did not work as the author expected (like bot uploading new copy of all objects with new tags, instead of updating the objects, leading to thousands of duplicated stuff in the map). Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatra...@gmail.com: Why not assume that the user is 10years old and just learning how to hack for the first time? Or learning how to make a batch file. Don't they teach that in basic computer programming class? That's unintentional vandalism then. Still needs quick response to keep the quality of data at any useful level. Users should definitely not be learning basics on a live database. The way people learn things like that is by first observing and then making very localised small changes, then you commit once you're happy with them. If after more than a couple of tens of changesets and messages sent to you by people you're still making wrong changes and don't respond to the messages then we really don't care whether you're a newbie or not, we don't want you, project will not benefit from your contributions. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
Dermot McNally wrote: FFS Tom, you can't have it both ways. I understand and respect that you don't want the final decision resting, by default, with you as the man with the stick. This being so, you have to be prepared to assess the claims of individual mappers on their merits, having regard to the facts. No. The you in you have to be prepared to assess is not Tom, it's OSMF. OSMF is the nearest to a community-appointed arbiter that we have. In particular, it's OSMF's Data Working Group: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_working_group There are two questions re: RR8; should his edits be reverted? and should he be banned?. We have unanimous agreement on the former, we have tools to do it and people prepared to use them, so all it needs is someone, anyone, to do it. You have suggested that in Ireland that's already happened, so that's good. (Reverts aren't really an issue, to be honest. Many of us do them every day on an individual level - just clearing up a daft merge, an accidental deletion, or a confused mistagging. I didn't ask the mailing list for approval to revert the city of Bournemouth Square [sic] this morning, or to reinstate NCN6 into Kendal yesterday, and so on. The problem comes from edit wars, i.e. when a revert is followed by a reinstatement, and so on. We have no indication that RR8 is engaging in an edit war.) The second question, that of banning the user, is more difficult. In some cases it's probably justified - generally when the user is damaging the map (large-scale vandalism, infringement, edit war) on an ongoing basis, and has not responded satisfactorily to attempts to get in touch and resolve the situation. But this really has to be where OSMF makes the decision, and as Tom posted earlier, no-one affected by RR8's edits appears to have contacted OSMF on the issue yet. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-%28assistance-required-in-various-countries%29-tp25230343p25264114.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Sybren A. Stüvel schrieb: On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 09:17:11PM +0200, Peter Körner wrote: A revert is changing a lot of things in one time, which would be much more time-consuming with e.g. josm. I see this (doing a lot of things with just a single click) as the main problem with an easy revert tool without some kind of vote. In that case the entire API should be scrapped. After all, I can easily make some small program You can do as, but with a webservice that takes a changeset-number in a form and offers a revert-button, everybody can do this. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 09:17:11PM +0200, Peter Körner wrote: A revert is changing a lot of things in one time, which would be much more time-consuming with e.g. josm. I see this (doing a lot of things with just a single click) as the main problem with an easy revert tool without some kind of vote. In that case the entire API should be scrapped. After all, I can easily make some small program that uploads random changes to random nodes and ways, and mess up a lot. And once I've written that program, I can run it again and again, even large scale on a network of zombie computers. With the API there is already a way for people to mess up the data. What we need is a way to easily clean up such a mess. Cheers, -- Sybren Stüvel http://stuvel.eu/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/sybrenstuvel signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Frederik Rammfrede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: So to revert them all do I just do: 1. perl changeset.pl create ( note the id changeset.pl returns) 2. for vandal_id in $(bzgrep RR8 iceland.osm.bz2 |perl -pe 's/.*changeset=(.*?).*/$1/' | sort | uniq | sort -n); do perl revert.pl $vandal_id $CURRENT_CHANGESET; done I.e. revert the oldest changesets first. 3. perl changeset.pl close $CURRENT_CHANGESET Reverted edits by RR8 edits to Iceland. See OSM-talk revert.pl should be able to combine steps 1-3 for you, if you just call perl revert.pl $vandal_id. There was a bug in the SVN version which I hopefully just fixed to allow this. The revert.pl script doesn't have docs for this and I can't see anywhere in the code where it would get a list of all changesets by a userr. I would suggest to replace sort | uniq | sort -n by sort -run (reverse order). That way, if the vandal created a node in changeset 1 and used it to build a way in changeset 2, you first delete the way and later the node... rather than the other way round which would fail. Yes sounds good. None of this is failure safe but it's worth a try. - What I would probably do is download all changesets, merge them into one, sort it suitably, and then try to undo the changes en bloc. This would not necessarily work better, just give me the feeling of being more in control. Combine them how? Using osmosis? Anyway would you be willing to do the revert using your tools? I only want to mess with this if nobody else is willing to. If not all of his changesets then at least the edits he's made to Iceland. Those should all be reverted. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] First import working group meeting
Hi The first import working group meeting will be held next week • Thursday September 10th • 6pm UK time, 10 AM Pacific Time Agenda • Participant introductions • Sort out the impo...@osmfoundation vs. impo...@openstreetmap.org lists, and their need • Divide work in to people finding data, people good at getting it licensed, and those who can do imports • Create list of potential and existing imports • Prioritise them • Any other business All are welcome, please find more info and contribute at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Import_Support_Working_Group Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
Hi, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: The revert.pl script doesn't have docs for this and I can't see anywhere in the code where it would get a list of all changesets by a user. Right, sorry, my misunderstanding. It does the create/revert/close thing for you but then of course you have one individual changeset for each of his. None of this is failure safe but it's worth a try. - What I would probably do is download all changesets, merge them into one, sort it suitably, and then try to undo the changes en bloc. This would not necessarily work better, just give me the feeling of being more in control. Combine them how? Using osmosis? I would probably simply concatenate them then use the oscgrep utility to retrieve individual changes of a certain type from them. Anyway would you be willing to do the revert using your tools? I only want to mess with this if nobody else is willing to. I'm doing Iceland now because I know I can take your word for it. I have no idea whether or not the Irish have already begun fixing things but I can do Ireland as well if they want. But I really need people familiar with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the edits are bogus. Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
On 2 Sep 2009, at 20:30, Peter Körner wrote: Sybren A. Stüvel schrieb: On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 09:17:11PM +0200, Peter Körner wrote: A revert is changing a lot of things in one time, which would be much more time-consuming with e.g. josm. I see this (doing a lot of things with just a single click) as the main problem with an easy revert tool without some kind of vote. In that case the entire API should be scrapped. After all, I can easily make some small program You can do as, but with a webservice that takes a changeset-number in a form and offers a revert-button, everybody can do this. Yes, I would like to see a revert function available to which I could give a changeset to and it would revert all the changes made to the database within that changeset. It must flag the changes as being made by me and being made using that tool (I must take responsibility for the decision to revert and the tool must also be identified as it has some responsibility for the quality of the revert). Would the tool be something that ran on my computer? Possibly. A good tool will need to be able to do this even when some changes have been made on top of the changeset and possibly highlight a few issues that cannot be reverted because of conflicts. A good might be able to review all the changes made by a particular user over a period of time and list the status of the features before and after to assess what the user is doing and if there is any sense to it or what. It should be possible to revert multiple changesets by one user in this way. A good tool might be able to monitor the minutely diffs and identify unlikely behaviour, such as someone randomly changing names for features that have been stable for some time, or moving nodes around that have been stable for some time. This is just a warning, not a definite problem and would need to be assessed. A good tool might be able to monitor the minutely diffs and check names against a 'swear list' to check for unlikely street names and locality names etc. Not all rude names are incorrect as the book 'rude Britain' can testify but it is worth checking.[1] The camp sites at Burning Man have some very offensive names as well. A good tool might be able to import a 'white list' of trusted editors and then focus the attention on unknown contributors in the minutely diffs feed. There would need to be a way for trusted users to give trusted status to others or challenge it and share lists. A good tool might spot users breaking coastline or motorways or railway lines or administrative boundaries or other very established features and highlight this for review. This tool should be configurable so that one can monitor only a part of the world that one is interested in, or only feature types that one is interested in, for example railways in Europe, or everything within a bounding box. A good set of tools will allow us to revert vandalism within minutes. Please can a bunch of coders get on with producing support for this important work. We have remarkably little graffiti but it does exist and will get more of a problem. It is such a shame to see vandalism messing up a lot of good work and we risk loosing established contributors unless we can protect the work already done better than we are doing. We will of course have some revert wars, that would be a sign that we had the technology and needed to build the social infrastructure to control its use. Currently we don't seem to have the technology to revert changes where changes have been made on top. You could check the tool on the edits made over the previous two months by Liam123, some of which have still not been reverted for lack of a suitable tool to achieve it. [1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rude-UK-Exposed-British-Passages/dp/0752226657 Regards, Peter Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
be added at the right side of every changeset line. One click might report succeed or conflict/failed, do it manually. Until this is possible I want to try to (or at least collect all necessary information to) write an external tool for this. Adding revert to main site could attract vandals (ok, let's just revert stuff) or experimentators (what does this button do?). I think better would be to have it as external tool that can either revert or prepare file for reverting (so that it would be loaded, checked and uploaded in JOSM) - reverting should be easy, but not that easy, that it would suffice to click one button to revert. Maybe such a tool could block such revert-reverts (A revert's Bs changeset, B reverts As revert) and only allow them to others, to avoid revert-wars. Maybe this should only happen after two rounds? How do you (automatically) distinguish revert from ordinary edit (or almost-revert from ordinary edit)? I think you can't at least not reliably (you can't rely on the commit message, etc ...) So for avoiding revert war we need to use same mechanisms as for avioding any other unwanted edits - block users/IP's from editing, etc ... Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
How do you (automatically) distinguish revert from ordinary edit (or almost-revert from ordinary edit)? I think you can't at least not reliably (you can't rely on the commit message, etc ...) This decision would be made in the revert-tool we talk here about. It would not be includes as part of the main api / osm.org. I'm talking about avoiding reverting a previously done revert *within this tool* Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
On 2 Sep 2009, at 21:52, MP wrote: be added at the right side of every changeset line. One click might report succeed or conflict/failed, do it manually. Until this is possible I want to try to (or at least collect all necessary information to) write an external tool for this. Adding revert to main site could attract vandals (ok, let's just revert stuff) or experimentators (what does this button do?). I think better would be to have it as external tool that can either revert or prepare file for reverting (so that it would be loaded, checked and uploaded in JOSM) - reverting should be easy, but not that easy, that it would suffice to click one button to revert. Only 'established users' can upload images to Wikipedia and I would suggest that the revert option is only available to established OSM users. It would need to take many edits to get 'established' but it means that there are some controls on 'drive-by vandals' who register and then cause mischief. I guess one can loose one's 'established user' credentials by partaking in vandalism. Maybe such a tool could block such revert-reverts (A revert's Bs changeset, B reverts As revert) and only allow them to others, to avoid revert-wars. Maybe this should only happen after two rounds? How do you (automatically) distinguish revert from ordinary edit (or almost-revert from ordinary edit)? I think you can't at least not reliably (you can't rely on the commit message, etc ...) I am not sure you need to. Not all reverts in Wikipedia use the revert mechanism, because for complex multiple edit vandalism it is easier to go back to a previoud version and cut the text from there and paste it in again. The main thing is to be able to see the differences between now and then for an area and decide what sort of revert is appropriate. For a simple single changeset a revert might often be good, however sometimes one might decide one needed to revert a part of the dataset wholesale. Not sure why. A good tool might be able to identify a revert war by spotting tags for features that are flipping backwards and forwards frequently or tags that get created and deleted. Basically any feature that returns to a recent state again a number of times in a short period. So for avoiding revert war we need to use same mechanisms as for avioding any other unwanted edits - block users/IP's from editing, etc These are surely the last line of defence and are easily circumvented unless the other devices are also in place. To start with we need to be able to deal with the basic drive-by vandal (using a simple revert) and then be able to deal with people registering many names and doing a few edits with each (white lists and patrols might help here). For revert wars we need detection of flip-flopping features and we need human arbitrators. Only if all that fails do we need to start banning people which is something which only the Data Working Group can do - everything else if for the community to organise. Regards, Peter ... Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
How whow what a great post. Thank you for that! I was nodding most of the time while reading :) Yes, I would like to see a revert function available to which I could give a changeset to and it would revert all the changes made to the database within that changeset. It must flag the changes as being made by me and being made using that tool (I must take responsibility for the decision to revert and the tool must also be identified as it has some responsibility for the quality of the revert). Would the tool be something that ran on my computer? Possibly. I'd like to have a web-interface as this would make interaction with others much more easy. Also the example [2] shows the great power of the crowd and I'd like to make as much use of this as possible. And finally I'm a Web-Developer :) A good tool will need to be able to do this even when some changes have been made on top of the changeset and possibly highlight a few issues that cannot be reverted because of conflicts. In cases where it's unable to solve a conflict automatically it should give logical proposals but also allow completely free edits on all nodes (including none-conflicting) A good might be able to review all the changes made by a particular user over a period of time and list the status of the features before and after to assess what the user is doing and if there is any sense to it or what. It should be possible to revert multiple changesets by one user in this way. It should also show which changes already have been reverted to show how others think about them. I think I might be able to build such a tool around the mid of September, maybe even a little later. If s/o else wants to, feel free. I put [.. very good ideas about a monitoring-tool, which is out of my current scope] A good set of tools will allow us to revert vandalism within minutes. And should not make intentional vandalism more easy than it is to day. Please can a bunch of coders get on with producing support for this important work. The biggest issue in writing those tools is planning them. When a tool is planned from A-Z, it's coded within days. So come on and discuss further how you'd like to work with this tool, so that we're able to build it. You could check the tool on the edits made over the previous two months by Liam123, some of which have still not been reverted for lack of a suitable tool to achieve it. Thank you for that hint, i'll do this. I pushed all collected ideas to [3]. I signed your input with a link to your mail in the archives, hope this is ok. While discussion goes on here I'll try to copy the good points to that page. Peter [2] cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Change_rollback ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Peter Miller schrieb: On 2 Sep 2009, at 21:52, MP wrote: Until this is possible I want to try to (or at least collect all necessary information to) write an external tool for this. Adding revert to main site could attract vandals (ok, let's just revert stuff) or experimentators (what does this button do?). I think better would be to have it as external tool that can either revert or prepare file for reverting (so that it would be loaded, checked and uploaded in JOSM) - reverting should be easy, but not that easy, that it would suffice to click one button to revert. Only 'established users' can upload images to Wikipedia and I would suggest that the revert option is only available to established OSM users. It would need to take many edits to get 'established' but it means that there are some controls on 'drive-by vandals' who register and then cause mischief. I guess one can loose one's 'established user' credentials by partaking in vandalism. I don't think the number of edits is a good indicator of beeing established. How about the time beeing an OSM member? Half a year (maybe with activity every month) would be better, I think. For a simple single changeset a revert might often be good, however sometimes one might decide one needed to revert a part of the dataset wholesale. Not sure why. Our cool-tool could allow this as well. I'm thinking of a list of all changes with the option to choose an action (revert, keep, revert tag(s), revert position, ...) So you could mark those things that should stay as ignore, leave the rest as revert and let the tool do the work. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Peter Körnerosm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: Hi I'd like to do a Brainstorming about how a Revert-Tool could look like, Having a Big Green Button that says this changeset is trivial to revert would be good enough for many tasks. The most important feature of an revert tool is to visualize and list the conflicts that are caused by reverting a changeset. Then you will have to do it manually. Conflict handling beyond stating This is a conflict isn't available in any tool I've seen, when I used JOSM last summer it sucked at conflicts and so does Potlatch even though you edit live. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
On 2 Sep 2009, at 22:35, Peter Körner wrote: Peter Miller schrieb: On 2 Sep 2009, at 21:52, MP wrote: Until this is possible I want to try to (or at least collect all necessary information to) write an external tool for this. Adding revert to main site could attract vandals (ok, let's just revert stuff) or experimentators (what does this button do?). I think better would be to have it as external tool that can either revert or prepare file for reverting (so that it would be loaded, checked and uploaded in JOSM) - reverting should be easy, but not that easy, that it would suffice to click one button to revert. Only 'established users' can upload images to Wikipedia and I would suggest that the revert option is only available to established OSM users. It would need to take many edits to get 'established' but it means that there are some controls on 'drive- by vandals' who register and then cause mischief. I guess one can loose one's 'established user' credentials by partaking in vandalism. I don't think the number of edits is a good indicator of beeing established. How about the time beeing an OSM member? Half a year (maybe with activity every month) would be better, I think. Registering, moving one node and then waiting for 6 months doesn't seem to be a good indicator of being a 'good citizen' Making 10 changesets of more than 10 features each over a period of at least 2 weeks without attracting reverts or complaints should be sufficient I would have thought. That would mean that a newbie who gets on with it can be 'established' within 2 weeks. I think that was how long it took me to get rights to upload images to Wikipiedia. Some vandals will slip through, but that is fine - we can deal with them in the usual way. For a simple single changeset a revert might often be good, however sometimes one might decide one needed to revert a part of the dataset wholesale. Not sure why. Our cool-tool could allow this as well. Great. I'm thinking of a list of all changes with the option to choose an action (revert, keep, revert tag(s), revert position, ...) So you could mark those things that should stay as ignore, leave the rest as revert and let the tool do the work. Sounds great. I think the main message is 'please don't wait for permission to develop this' and get going! I love you practical energy on this. I agree that a web-service would be better that a downloadable tool - I would be much more likely to use a web-service, but any tool is better than no tool. What we need now is for people to just get on with it and make tools and try them cautiously on small test edits and then try them on bigger stuff so we are ready for the big nightmare vandalism that could well occur before anyone attempts it. I can think of some very bad scenarios where people do very political edits to strategic parts of the map where it would generate a lot of press that would be read by millions of people. If we are not ready when it strikes we will descend again into a bear-pit of accusation and counter-accusation while leaving the graffiti in place for everyone to continue to write about - just think of some of the negative press that Wikipiedia as had over the recent years. The more high-profile users we get the more opportunity we have for big vandalism stories. Regards, Peter Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
2009/9/2 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: The you in you have to be prepared to assess is not Tom, it's OSMF. OSMF is the nearest to a community-appointed arbiter that we have. In particular, it's OSMF's Data Working Group: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_working_group Richard - yes, this is a fair catch. A better way to express it would be there has to be a 'you' that can assess (Reverts aren't really an issue, to be honest. Many of us do them every day on an individual level - just clearing up a daft merge, an accidental deletion, or a confused mistagging. I didn't ask the mailing list for approval to revert the city of Bournemouth Square [sic] this morning, or to reinstate NCN6 into Kendal yesterday, and so on. The problem comes from edit wars, i.e. when a revert is followed by a reinstatement, and so on. We have no indication that RR8 is engaging in an edit war.) This is also true, though on his form, we can expect him to continue making daft edits. Not an edit war, but it shares with edit wars the prospect of continued damage. The second question, that of banning the user, is more difficult. In some cases it's probably justified - generally when the user is damaging the map (large-scale vandalism, infringement, edit war) on an ongoing basis, and has not responded satisfactorily to attempts to get in touch and resolve the situation. But this really has to be where OSMF makes the decision, and as Tom posted earlier, no-one affected by RR8's edits appears to have contacted OSMF on the issue yet. This is also fair. In OSM we get over-used to the fact that The Major Players are reading what goes down on the lists or IRC. Which is not reasonable. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal
2009/9/2 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: I'm doing Iceland now because I know I can take your word for it. I have no idea whether or not the Irish have already begun fixing things but I can do Ireland as well if they want. But I really need people familiar with the region who tell me that they are reasonably sure that the edits are bogus. Just because someone made bogus edits in Iceland doesn't automatically mean he's messing up Ireland as well etc. State of Ireland :) All edits were about as bogus as they get. I _believe_ I have reverted all he did, and I did so by hand. If it's straightforward, I'd be happy to see any stray edits of his reverted that I somehow missed. If my manual work makes this tricky, I suggest you expend your kindness on another territory he's broken, because we seem to be back to normality. And as always, thanks for the offer! Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Revert my own and only my own changeset. On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 2:03 AM, Peter Körnerosm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: Hi I'd like to do a Brainstorming about how a Revert-Tool could look like, that is more open to the Community, can be used without programming knowledge and is able to to reverts fast. Please throw in you're ideas, thoughts, whatever you have to say. I'll add my own Ideas in a separate mail. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Hi, Yes, exactly, wasn't aware of this call but it turns out this would have been an RTFM ... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6#Download:_GET_.2 Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset.2F.23id.2Fdownload thanks Karl -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. September 2009 21:00 An: karl.guggisb...@guggis.ch Cc: 'osm' Betreff: Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools Hi, Karl Guggisberg wrote: - tool shows you a list of all members of the Changeset ... for which we would need a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567 which includes the primitives, if possible even a /api/0.6/changeset/1234567/full. You mean /api/0.6/changeset/1234567/download? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
Karl, Karl Guggisberg wrote: Yes, exactly, wasn't aware of this call but it turns out this would have been an RTFM ... Glad it happens to other people as well ;-) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
2009/9/2 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: 2009/9/2 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Revert should be possible from the main site everywhere changesets are listed : from the history tab on a bbox or the recent changes without bbox ([1]) or from an individual contributor ([2]) edits. A new élink revert could be added at the right side of every changeset line. One click might report succeed or conflict/failed, do it manually. +1 As a possible watchdog, the system could send automatically a message to the author of the reverted changeset like User:XXX reverted your changeset 12345. +1, that's a good idea I would also find it very helpful to have renderings of the different states on the api-history-pages (of elements way/node), as well as for changesets (before/after), although this might not be possible in some cases (e.g. when the area is very big / a way very long). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Statistieken voor alle webdiensten
Volgens mij moet je geen ip adressen en hostnames publiekelijk maken. Ik weet, er zijn zat awstats installaties die niet beveiligd zijn, maar als je er bewust mee bezig bent moet je het niet doen (vind ik). Privacy zou ook op internet een belangrijk goed moeten zijn. Als bepaalde andere sites hun iplogs bekend zouden maken zou de wereld moord en brand schreeuwen. Stefan de Konink wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Hoi, Roeland en ik zijn vanavond begonnen aan een operatie om 3.2GB aan log files inzichtelijk te gaan maken voor het gebruik van onze openstreetmap apparatuur. Ik dacht zelf totdat ik daarnet in de badkamer stond (daar komen al mijn goede ideeen naar boven) dat er wellicht wel wat gevoelige informatie in zou kunnen zitten. ...ik zie bijvoorbeeld overheid bij ons kijken; en niet de minsten - so to speak. Gaarne wil ik even vanuit de 'community' horen of we dit het publiek in gooien of niet. Er zijn al eerder standpunten in genomen dat je ipadressen/hostnames eigenlijk niet hoort te publiceren... Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREKAAYFAkqdr9UACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn2NsACeIiVUYUpBNVTXxTuRmYHenKHw IjEAn1Px1odNSf8K0CxBLnw5TyXyc9XR =6F51 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Statistieken voor alle webdiensten
zolang je geen individu eruit kunt aanwijzen ben je niet bezig met privacy schending lijkt me.. is natuurlijk interessante informatie om te publiceren Rob Op 2 september 2009 10:54 schreef Frank Fesevur (f...@users.sourceforge.net) het volgende: Op 2 september 2009 01:35 schreef Stefan de Konink (ste...@konink.de) het volgende: ...ik zie bijvoorbeeld overheid bij ons kijken; en niet de minsten - so to speak. Maar misschien zijn dat wel gewoon enthousiast mappende ambtenaren ;-) Gaarne wil ik even vanuit de 'community' horen of we dit het publiek in gooien of niet. Er zijn al eerder standpunten in genomen dat je ipadressen/hostnames eigenlijk niet hoort te publiceren... Je kunt misschien wel een overzicht maken zonder dat je te veel in detail gaat. Die genoemde overheid vind ik best interessante informatie, misschien kun je het in een begeleidend schrijven noemen of zo? Gegroet, Frank ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
[OSM-talk-nl] En toen was er trac.openstreetmap.nl
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Hoi, Binnen de kamers en IRC kwamen toch goede ideeën naar boven om een beetje project management te gaan doen binnen ons nationalistische projectje. De keuze is gevallen op TRAC (met git en postgresql), de stylesheets staan nu op: http://trac.openstreetmap.nl/ We zullen even kijken hoe we de boel met meerdere repositories aan de gang te krijgen is. Daarbij denk ik persoonlijk aan een grote openstreetmap.nl repo die in git staat. Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREKAAYFAkqfBXQACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn3gDgCfUjv8qyXB+DkXMaBZll6U6K8T mzMAnR/Ojzm7Seig42qBqhGXOcDJdQz2 =S5L8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [talk-au] Missing post code boundaries?
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009, John Smith wrote: The following is a list of postcode areas considered Delivery Area by AusPost, but we have no osm file for: 2649, 2661, 2678, 2769, 2899, all of these drew a blank on my work database search. actually i found 5 people in 2678 but their addresses were all in 2680, so I amended their records. 2649 /might/ exist and we not have any customers from there, but I suspect that it doesn't exist ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Missing post code boundaries?
2009/9/2 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Sun, 30 Aug 2009, John Smith wrote: The following is a list of postcode areas considered Delivery Area by AusPost, but we have no osm file for: 2649, 2661, 2678, 2769, 2899, all of these drew a blank on my work database search. actually i found 5 people in 2678 but their addresses were all in 2680, so I amended their records. 2649 /might/ exist and we not have any customers from there, but I suspect that it doesn't exist I think what's happened is AusPost has split postcodes, I was looking at towns in a missing post code in NT and it was a big area and well yea... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] post code boundaries
Ok, finally found one of the boundaries I moved. http://osm.org/go/u...@rpric6- J.W. Crane Place wasn't a boundary, but is a postcode bounary. I can keep digging through all my edits if you want, but I made a lot of edits. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] post code boundaries
2009/9/2 Liz ed...@billiau.net: is it thought that we can draw boundaries around unique post code areas? The thing to bear in mind is that the ABS post code boundaries aren't accurate either, they are close approximations, it looks like AusPost has split 2,507 boundaries into 2,623, so even those that were close approximations they aren't accurate any more anyway. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] post code boundaries
I was just curious - it means that any sort of automated matching is really hard ;-( cheers On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 10:30 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: Ok, finally found one of the boundaries I moved. http://osm.org/go/u...@rpric6- J.W. Crane Place wasn't a boundary, but is a postcode bounary. I can keep digging through all my edits if you want, but I made a lot of edits. -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] post code boundaries
I had made the assumption based on a small(ish) sample of postcodes in major cities that for the ABS data set, that the boundaries between adjacent postcodes were coincident with boundaries between suburns (sorry for the mouthful). I noted several suburbs that consisted of disjoint areas, so I would assume that postcodes could be the same (I'd even expect this to be more common). Have you found cases where the postcode boundaries don't lie on top of the suburb boundaries ? (which would make the problem even uglier) cheers On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 9:50 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: is it thought that we can draw boundaries around unique post code areas? we could be wrong 2652 (i've been cheating off the database) extends merriwagga goolgowi tabbita boorga and then reappears in another area grong grong matong (skips a few towns) marrar mangoplah old junee then south of the Sturt tarcutta uranquinty boree creek and just east of wagga gumly gumly and apparently near tumbarumba rosewood ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] post code boundaries
Yeah - I think I would come to the same conclusion ;-) cheers On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 10:35 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/9/2 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com: I was just curious - it means that any sort of automated matching is really hard ;-( There may be some way to do it automatically, but I figured the time spent doing all that would be better spent doing QC on the boundaries. -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-talk] How to tag giant acorn?
great opportunity here there's a nice giant strawberry just south of Tocumwal http://www.thebigstrawberry.com.au/ and another one on the sunshine coast http://www.bigthings.com.au/s.htm Came across this by accident this morning, someone already has tagged the big shell http://maps.bigtincan.com/?zoom=18lat=-26.386291470173lon=153.03765129668 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-talk] How to tag giant acorn?
2009/9/3 gehar...@gmail.com: tourism=attraction tourism=information You can't have 2 tags with the same key, so you need to tag 2 nodes usually to cover both. I wonder how many Big Things have been tagged like: select name from planet_osm_point where tourism='attraction' and name ilike '%big%' Big Brook Dam The Big Crocodile Big Rocking Horse The Big Orange Big Tree Big Tree The Big Merino Big Bike Big Mobile Phone The Big Pineapple Big Banana Big Kauri Tree The Big Shell ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [Talk-br] Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calça das, ruas, CEP)
Oi pessoal, Vou verificar se estes dados são de domínio público. Se eles forem, eu tenho uma proposta. Creio que no momento não há como fazer uma importação automática deles para o Centro Expandido da Cidade de São Paulo, porque já existem muitos dados na área e seria muito dificil fazer um algoritmo para fazer uma importação seletiva. Para aproveitarmos os dados de alguma maneira, sugiro criar um jpg de alta resolução com a geometria e nomes de ruas para a região a partir da base da FSEADE. Desta maneira, a gente pode aproveitar o trabalho que o Diogo fez de desenhar as geometrias e deixar todas as ruas com o nome correto, sem precisar fazer o mapeamento de campo. Se houver alguma dúvida sobre vielas ou pequenas ruas, podemos olhar na imagem. Já para as outras partes da cidade e para os outros municípios da RMSP, podemos fazer uma importação direta dos dados. Vitor 2009/8/27 Junior, Claudomiro claudomiro.jun...@citi.com Oi Vitor, Se vc puder checar isso, seria ótimo. O que eu e o Diego indentificamos olhando um pouco os dados e comparando com o que temos no mapa é que: * Não dá pra dizer qual dos dois traçados é mais preciso pelo visual. Precisariamos levantar alguns pontos com uma fonte mais precisa (GPS, por exemplo) pra confirmar isso. * Os dados do CEM (SEADE, realmente é parceiro deles) contem muitas pequenas ruas que são dificeis de identificar visualmente na foto do satelite. * A numeração nas ruas foi armazenada pela estimativa (metros a partir da origem) e não por levantamento no local. Assim que eu tiver mais informações eu repasso aqui. []s This message is originated by Claudomiro Junior, who is NOT an employee or agent of Citicorp North America Inc. [or other applicable CITIGROUP LEGAL VEHICLE], but an external service provider. If you are not the intended addressee or authorized person to receive this message, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by replying to this message and by deleting this message. Thank you for your cooperation . -- *From:* talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto: talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org] *On Behalf Of *Vitor George *Sent:* quinta-feira, 27 de agosto de 2009 12:13 *To:* OSM talk-br *Subject:* Re: [Talk-br]Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calçadas, ruas, CEP) Olá Pessoal, Desculpe o sumiço! Tenho andado sem tempo para nada... Só para esclarecer, estes dados não são da Fundação SEADE, e sim deste Centro de Estudos da Metrópole. Alguém pode me lembrar se já tinhamos verificado se eles são de domínio público? Lembro que os dados do IBGE são, mas estes não tenho certeza. Se não forem, farei o contato com o CEM para ver se evoluímos. Abraços, Vitor. 2009/8/22 Claudomiro Nascimento Junior claudom...@claudomiro.com Pessoal, No esforço de mapeamento de São Paulo, lembrei desse email do Vitor de fevereiro e resolvi baixar pra dar uma olhada nos dados. Realmente é uma base gigante com TODAS as ruas do município e talvez incluíndo os outros municípios da região Metropolitana. O Shapefile contem uma linha para cada de segmento de rua (um quarteirão) com os limites de numeração a esquerda e direita e CEP tambem. Infelizmente não tenho ideia de como mesclar as informações deles com o que temos já traçado - os algoritmos são mais complexos que os de importação dos municípios com certeza. Comecei uma página no wiki sobre isso: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Importa%C3%A7%C3%A3o_SEADE Vamos marcar um encontro para fazer um plano mais detalhado? []s 2009/2/8 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com: Apesar de não existir um sistema de busca de CEP ainda, podemos começar a definir como seriam as tags para isso, conforme o skippern sugeriu. Parece-me que alguns CEPs são diferentes para os lados esquerdo e direito das ruas, mas é preciso tirar esta dúvida. Uma coisa que tem me preocupado é a númeração de ruas. Acredito que no passo que estamos indo me mapeamento, vamos demorar muito para ter estas informações. O ideal é buscarmos base prontas, talvez de prefeituras, com estes dados. Aproveitando a deixa, conversei com Gustavo Coelho, que é o responsável por Geoprocessamento da Fundação Seade, e ele comentou que o Centro de Estudos da Metrópole oferece base gratuita dos logradouros de São Paulo, inclusive com numeração das ruas. É possível checar os dados aqui: http://centrodametropole.org.br/t_transf_bases_3.htm Não abri ainda estes dados, mas é uma opção para as pessoas que estão mapeando a Região Metropolitana de São Paulo. 2009/2/8 Aun Johnsen (via Webmail) skipp...@gimnechiske.org On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:42:14 -0200, Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org wrote: Em Dom, 2009-02-01 às 20:27 -0200, Arlindo Pereira escreveu: (...) Então, o que tenho
Re: [Talk-br] Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calça das, ruas, CEP)
Entendi, Poderíamos renderizar o shapefile e usar a imagem resultante como background para digitarmos os nomes corretos nas ruas. Outra ideia seria a de converter os dados como estão para formato OSM e carrega-lo como uma camada em separado no JOSM. Nessa abordagem podiamos usar copypaste direto da propriedade com o nome da rua. Quanto a licença, acho que os nomes das ruas não são protegidos, somente o shape (trocadilho proposital :-)) dos mapas - mas não sou advogado muito menos advogado especialista na área... _ From: talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Vitor George Sent: quarta-feira, 2 de setembro de 2009 09:14 To: rodr...@avila.eti.br; OSM talk-br Subject: Re: [Talk-br]Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calçadas, ruas, CEP) Oi Rodrigo, A idéia seria gerar um mapa em formato de imagem (.jpg ou outro formato) com as informações da SEADE para ser utilizado para verificação. Abs, Vitor 2009/9/2 Rodrigo de Avila rodr...@avila.eti.br 2009/9/2 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com sugiro criar um jpg de alta resolução com a geometria e nomes de ruas Desculpem minha ignorância, mas... o que é um jpg com geometria? -- Rodrigo de Avila Analista de Desenvolvimento +55 51 9733.3488 * rodr...@avila.eti.br * www.avila.eti.br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calça das, ruas, CEP)
2009/9/2 Junior, Claudomiro claudomiro.jun...@citi.com Entendi, Poderíamos renderizar o shapefile e usar a imagem resultante como background para digitarmos os nomes corretos nas ruas. Outra ideia seria a de converter os dados como estão para formato OSM e carrega-lo como uma camada em separado no JOSM. Nessa abordagem podiamos usar copypaste direto da propriedade com o nome da rua. Quanto a licença, acho que os nomes das ruas não são protegidos, somente o shape (trocadilho proposital :-)) dos mapas - mas não sou advogado muito menos advogado especialista na área... Também não sou advogado, mas isso não seria o mesmo que copiar os nomes de ruas do Google Maps? [] -- *From:* talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto: talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org] *On Behalf Of *Vitor George *Sent:* quarta-feira, 2 de setembro de 2009 09:14 *To:* rodr...@avila.eti.br; OSM talk-br *Subject:* Re: [Talk-br]Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calçadas, ruas, CEP) Oi Rodrigo, A idéia seria gerar um mapa em formato de imagem (.jpg ou outro formato) com as informações da SEADE para ser utilizado para verificação. Abs, Vitor 2009/9/2 Rodrigo de Avila rodr...@avila.eti.br 2009/9/2 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com sugiro criar um jpg de alta resolução com a geometria e nomes de ruas Desculpem minha ignorância, mas... o que é um jpg com geometria? -- Rodrigo de Avila Analista de Desenvolvimento +55 51 9733.3488 • rodr...@avila.eti.br • www.avila.eti.br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br -- Arlindo Saraiva Pereira Jr. Bacharelando em Sistemas de Informação - UNIRIO - uniriotec.br Consultor de Software Livre da Uniriotec Consultoria - uniriotec.com Acadêmico: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.br Profissional: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.com Geral: cont...@arlindopereira.com Tel.: +5521 92504072 Jabber/Google Talk: nig...@nighto.net Skype: nighto_sumomo Chave pública: BD065DEC ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calça das, ruas, CEP)
Se os dados de nomes de ruas da Fundação Seade são de domínio público, não. 2009/9/2 Arlindo Pereira nig...@nighto.net 2009/9/2 Junior, Claudomiro claudomiro.jun...@citi.com Entendi, Poderíamos renderizar o shapefile e usar a imagem resultante como background para digitarmos os nomes corretos nas ruas. Outra ideia seria a de converter os dados como estão para formato OSM e carrega-lo como uma camada em separado no JOSM. Nessa abordagem podiamos usar copypaste direto da propriedade com o nome da rua. Quanto a licença, acho que os nomes das ruas não são protegidos, somente o shape (trocadilho proposital :-)) dos mapas - mas não sou advogado muito menos advogado especialista na área... Também não sou advogado, mas isso não seria o mesmo que copiar os nomes de ruas do Google Maps? [] -- *From:* talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto: talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org] *On Behalf Of *Vitor George *Sent:* quarta-feira, 2 de setembro de 2009 09:14 *To:* rodr...@avila.eti.br; OSM talk-br *Subject:* Re: [Talk-br]Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calçadas, ruas, CEP) Oi Rodrigo, A idéia seria gerar um mapa em formato de imagem (.jpg ou outro formato) com as informações da SEADE para ser utilizado para verificação. Abs, Vitor 2009/9/2 Rodrigo de Avila rodr...@avila.eti.br 2009/9/2 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com sugiro criar um jpg de alta resolução com a geometria e nomes de ruas Desculpem minha ignorância, mas... o que é um jpg com geometria? -- Rodrigo de Avila Analista de Desenvolvimento +55 51 9733.3488 • rodr...@avila.eti.br • www.avila.eti.br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br -- Arlindo Saraiva Pereira Jr. Bacharelando em Sistemas de Informação - UNIRIO - uniriotec.br Consultor de Software Livre da Uniriotec Consultoria - uniriotec.com Acadêmico: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.br Profissional: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.com Geral: cont...@arlindopereira.com Tel.: +5521 92504072 Jabber/Google Talk: nig...@nighto.net Skype: nighto_sumomo Chave pública: BD065DEC ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calça das, ruas, CEP)
On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 11:56:26AM -0300, Rodrigo de Avila wrote: 2009/9/2 Arlindo Pereira nig...@nighto.net 2009/9/2 Junior, Claudomiro claudomiro.jun...@citi.com Entendi, Poderíamos renderizar o shapefile e usar a imagem resultante como background para digitarmos os nomes corretos nas ruas. Outra ideia seria a de converter os dados como estão para formato OSM e carrega-lo como uma camada em separado no JOSM. Nessa abordagem podiamos usar copypaste direto da propriedade com o nome da rua. Quanto a licença, acho que os nomes das ruas não são protegidos, somente o shape (trocadilho proposital :-)) dos mapas - mas não sou advogado muito menos advogado especialista na área... Também não sou advogado, mas isso não seria o mesmo que copiar os nomes de ruas do Google Maps? Cara... já vi muita discussão sobre isto... uns dizem que nome de rua não tem dono; outros dizem que, se escrevi um nome em um determinado lugar, eu sou dono daquele nome naquele lugar. (eu não sou advogado, então não acreditem totalmente em mim) (aliás, nesse caso eu não acreditaria nem mesmo em um advogado, sem consultar outros além dele 8) Eu entendo deste modo: o nome não tem dono, mas se o mapa que você está copiando tem dono. Tentando fazer uma comparação, isso é equivalente a dizer: palavras sozinhas não têm dono, mas nem por isso você pode sair copiando um livro. Ao copiar dados de outro mapa, você corre o risco de introduzir informações que caracterizam uma cópia indevida do mapa. E esse é um risco que o projeto OSM não pode correr. Há casos interessantes desse tipo aqui: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Copyright_Easter_Eggs#OSM.27s_view_of_the_Topic E mais informações em: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#Why_don.27t_you_just_use_Google_Maps.2Fwhoever_for_your_data.3F O resumo é: _nunca_ copie informações de outro mapa (nem nomes de ruas!), a menos que tenha autorização do autor/detentor-dos-direitos. -- Eduardo ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calça das, ruas, CEP)
Em Qua, 2009-09-02 às 11:50 -0300, Arlindo Pereira escreveu: 2009/9/2 Junior, Claudomiro claudomiro.jun...@citi.com Entendi, Poderíamos renderizar o shapefile e usar a imagem resultante como background para digitarmos os nomes corretos nas ruas. Outra ideia seria a de converter os dados como estão para formato OSM e carrega-lo como uma camada em separado no JOSM. Nessa abordagem podiamos usar copypaste direto da propriedade com o nome da rua. Quanto a licença, acho que os nomes das ruas não são protegidos, somente o shape (trocadilho proposital :-)) dos mapas - mas não sou advogado muito menos advogado especialista na área... Também não sou advogado, mas isso não seria o mesmo que copiar os nomes de ruas do Google Maps? É trabalho derivado! Se a licença mapa original não permite trabalhos derivados, não podemos fazer dessa forma. As licenças do Google Maps e dos mapas do INPE não permitem, por exemplo. Abraço, -- Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org signature.asc Description: Esta é uma parte de mensagem assinada digitalmente ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calça das, ruas, CEP)
No meu entendimento, o que acontece é que os nomes em sí (como dados brutos) não são passíveis de copyright, assim como números de telefone, etc. MAS a APRESENTAÇÃO desses dados é - Os detalhes legais nesses pontos ficam um pouco obscuras. No caso de mapas com copyright claro qualquer cópia abre uma BRECHA para problemas, mesmo que seja de dados brutos. Portanto, mesmo tendo uma boa chance dos dados em questão estarem no domínio público por questão de PRINCÍPIO é melhor esperar uma resposta mais conclusiva. _ From: talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Arlindo Pereira Sent: quarta-feira, 2 de setembro de 2009 11:50 To: OSM talk-br Subject: Re: [Talk-br]Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calçadas, ruas, CEP) 2009/9/2 Junior, Claudomiro claudomiro.jun...@citi.com Entendi, Poderíamos renderizar o shapefile e usar a imagem resultante como background para digitarmos os nomes corretos nas ruas. Outra ideia seria a de converter os dados como estão para formato OSM e carrega-lo como uma camada em separado no JOSM. Nessa abordagem podiamos usar copypaste direto da propriedade com o nome da rua. Quanto a licença, acho que os nomes das ruas não são protegidos, somente o shape (trocadilho proposital :-)) dos mapas - mas não sou advogado muito menos advogado especialista na área... Também não sou advogado, mas isso não seria o mesmo que copiar os nomes de ruas do Google Maps? [] _ From: talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-br-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Vitor George Sent: quarta-feira, 2 de setembro de 2009 09:14 To: rodr...@avila.eti.br; OSM talk-br Subject: Re: [Talk-br]Import SEADE (Era Dúvidas: calçadas, ruas, CEP) Oi Rodrigo, A idéia seria gerar um mapa em formato de imagem (.jpg ou outro formato) com as informações da SEADE para ser utilizado para verificação. Abs, Vitor 2009/9/2 Rodrigo de Avila rodr...@avila.eti.br 2009/9/2 Vitor George vitor.geo...@gmail.com sugiro criar um jpg de alta resolução com a geometria e nomes de ruas Desculpem minha ignorância, mas... o que é um jpg com geometria? -- Rodrigo de Avila Analista de Desenvolvimento +55 51 9733.3488 * rodr...@avila.eti.br * www.avila.eti.br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br -- Arlindo Saraiva Pereira Jr. Bacharelando em Sistemas de Informação - UNIRIO - uniriotec.br Consultor de Software Livre da Uniriotec Consultoria - uniriotec.com Acadêmico: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.br Profissional: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.com Geral: cont...@arlindopereira.com Tel.: +5521 92504072 Jabber/Google Talk: nig...@nighto.net Skype: nighto_sumomo Chave pública: BD065DEC ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
[Talk-is] Villur frá mkgmap um Ísland
Eftirfarandi eru villur sem ég fǽ frá mkgmap þegar ég bý til Íslandskortið fyrir Garmin. Þetta virðast vera aulavillur sem hægt er að sjá með t.d. JOSM validator. SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 13253299) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12956lon=-21.91691zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road Þverbrekka (OSM id 29644436) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.11323lon=-21.86816zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road 503 Innnesvegur (OSM id 28988410) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.32126lon=-22.05975zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road Karlabraut (OSM id 26728379) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.09164lon=-21.90356zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road Langirimi (OSM id 8024244) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.14299lon=-21.79213zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 26531929) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.13237lon=-21.92077zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 26170608) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.11177lon=-21.88706zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 26532512) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12911lon=-21.92558zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 34076921) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12810lon=-21.75688zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 28992038) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.32452lon=-22.06915zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 26531698) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.13106lon=-21.91983zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 26200740) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12700lon=-21.85758zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road 60 Vestfjarðavegur (OSM id 4074498) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=66.02174lon=-23.37140zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road Ólafsgeisli (OSM id 34079005) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12417lon=-21.76728zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 27393798) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12224lon=-21.84123zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 27224806) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.13162lon=-21.86659zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 27226026) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12919lon=-21.86376zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 27226013) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12913lon=-21.86376zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 28310355) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.13164lon=-21.92650zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 25745763) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.06926lon=-16.92611zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 26763088) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=64.12228lon=-21.88625zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 27099819) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=63.68528lon=-19.51307zoom=17 SEVERE (RoadNetwork): Road null (OSM id 38675480) contains zero length arc SEVERE (RoadNetwork): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=65.67507lon=-18.09360zoom=17 ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Notandi:RR8
2009/9/2 Thorir Jonsson thorir...@gmail.com: Það eru fleiri að kvarta yfir RR8: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-September/thread.html#41363 Vonandi að þetta leysist sem fyrst. Þetta er komið í gegn núna sýnist mér: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2352857 ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
[Talk-de] Stromzapfstellen für KFZ's wie taggen ?
http://www.golem.de/0909/69498.html ... Das Unternehmen verhandelt nach eigenen Angaben mit den Herstellern von Autonavigationsgeräten über eine Aufnahme der Stationen in die Landkarten. ... Die wollen ihre Produkte bewerben und wir wollen Daten sammeln. Ich frage mal nach. Ciao André ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Zusammenfassung des Treffens mit AEROWEST und weitere Planung
Am Mi, 2.09.2009, 06:35 schrieb Bernd Wurst: Aber ich darf diese Mischung vornehmen und selbst nutzen. Es darf nur kein Folgeprodukt entstehen, das gemäß CC-by-SA viral vond er Lizenz betroffen wäre. Wo und wie genau sind diese Grenzen definiert? ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Zusammenfassung des Treffens mit AEROWEST und weitere Planung
Am 2. September 2009 10:44 schrieb Tobias Wendorff tobias.wendo...@uni-dortmund.de: Am Mi, 2.09.2009, 06:35 schrieb Bernd Wurst: Aber ich darf diese Mischung vornehmen und selbst nutzen. Es darf nur kein Folgeprodukt entstehen, das gemäß CC-by-SA viral vond er Lizenz betroffen wäre. Wo und wie genau sind diese Grenzen definiert? http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/deed.de Wenn Sie das lizenzierte Werk bzw. den lizenzierten Inhalt bearbeiten oder in anderer Weise erkennbar als Grundlage für eigenes Schaffen verwenden, dürfen Sie die daraufhin neu entstandenen Werke bzw. Inhalte nur unter Verwendung von Lizenzbedingungen ___weitergeben, die mit denen dieses Lizenzvertrages identisch oder vergleichbar sind. Solange man die Daten nicht weitergibt, greift die Lizenz überhaupt nicht. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Stromzapfstellen für KFZ's wie taggen ?
André Riedel schrieb: http://www.golem.de/0909/69498.html ... Das Unternehmen verhandelt nach eigenen Angaben mit den Herstellern von Autonavigationsgeräten über eine Aufnahme der Stationen in die Landkarten. ... Die wollen ihre Produkte bewerben und wir wollen Daten sammeln. Ich frage mal nach. Bitte auf DE:Kommunikation im Wiki packen ;-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Zusammenfassung des Treffens mit AEROWEST und weitere Planung
Stefan Schwan schrieb: Wenn Sie das lizenzierte Werk bzw. den lizenzierten Inhalt bearbeiten oder in anderer Weise erkennbar als Grundlage für eigenes Schaffen verwenden, dürfen Sie die daraufhin neu entstandenen Werke bzw. Inhalte nur unter Verwendung von Lizenzbedingungen ___weitergeben, die mit denen dieses Lizenzvertrages identisch oder vergleichbar sind. Im Endeffekt sind davon aber nur Dinge betroffen, die urheberrechtlich nach § 2 UrhG geschützt sind. Abdigitalisierungen aus Luftbildern fallen sehr wahrscheinlich unter § 2 UrhG, ob das jedoch auch für aus GPS-Tracks erstellte Ways gilt, mag ich mittlerweile doch bezweifeln. Falls es nämlich nicht dafür gilt, gilt auch CC-BY-SA nicht. Und selbst wenn CC-BY-SA gilt, frage ich mich, ob das überhaupt mit deutschem Recht vereinbar ist: § 24 UrhG (Freie Benutzung). Vor Gericht wäre es höchstwahrscheinlich gar nicht nachweisbar, dass XY die Daten nicht aus OSM genommen oder selbst erhoben hat. Er müsste die OSM-Daten ja nur um einen zufälligen Faktor voneinander verschieben. Sowas Ähnliches gab es schon häufiger in deutschen Gerichten, allerdings überwog hier die Verletzung des Datenbankschutzes, wodurch § 24 UrhG nicht in Betracht kam. Ebendies haben wir ja derzeit nicht! Das Ganze ist glaube ich auch eine der Intentionen für die Erstellung der ODbL. Solange man die Daten nicht weitergibt, greift die Lizenz überhaupt nicht. Yepp, endlich ein Grund, die ODbL sinnvoll zu finden. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] AEROWEST-Luftbilder: Was kann man damit machen?
Hallo Community, es ist schade, dass viele Mapper empfinden, dass Luftbilder nur mit Georeferenzierung nützlich sind. Dies mag daraus resultieren, dass die vorhandenen Luftbilder eine schlechte Auflösung und Aktualität haben. Bei den AEROWEST-Luftbildern ist dies jedoch anders. Daraus ergeben sich vollkommen neue Nutzungsmöglichkeiten für den Mapper, der nicht vor Ort sein kann. An zahlreiche Informationen kommt man als Mapper sowieso nicht, weil sie nicht physisch erreichbar sind oder das Betreten von Objekten aufgrund von Eigentumsverhältnissen verboten sind. Wenn bereits Objekte am Aktionsort vorhanden sind, kann man sich wunderbar daran orientieren und braucht nicht unbedingt eine Georeferenzierung in JOSM. Da bereits ein paar Leute mit den Luftbildern arbeiten, habe ich einige Punkte zusammengefasst, was man so mit den Bilder anfangen kann: Objekte auffinden * Recycling-Container * Ampelanlagen, Zebrastreifen, Verkehrsinseln, Kreisverkehre * Taxi-Stände * Telefonzellen * ÖPNV-Halte und -Zugänge * Fuß- und Zugangswege zu Häusern * Frei- und Grünflächen, Plätze * Polizeistationen (FuStW/FuStKW stehen meistens davor) * Hubschrauberlandeplätze * Zäune, Mauen, andere Barrieren und deren Durchlässe * generelle Koordination: Wo fehlt noch etwas? Informationen erkennen und ableiten * Abbiegerelationen (Pfeile auf der Straße) * Mehrspurigkeit (Straße + Schiene) * Bürgersteige, Radwege, Straßenbeleuchtungen, Parken im Verkehrsraum * Parkplätze: Stellplätze zählen * Eisenbahnweichen, Wende-/Abstellanlagen * Überdachung und Art von Bushaltestellen * Farbe und Art von Hausdächern * Beschaffenheit und Oberfläche von Verkehrswegen * Vegetation Wie viele bereits festgestellt haben, sind die auf der Website von AEROWEST genannten Bedingungen (u.a. die AGB) bislang noch nicht aktualisiert worden. Im Gespräch mit Herrn Benfer jedoch klar genannt, dass die Luftbilder für unser Vorhaben mit den im Wiki genannten Bedingungen genutzt werden dürfen. Jedoch wird natürlich für eine explizite Erlaubnis gesorgt. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Aktionen/Luftbilder Viele Grüße Tobias ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] JOSM: Selektiere alle neuen Ways
Hi! wie selektiere ich denn in JOSM am einfachsten alle Ways (z.B. um nach einer Tracing Aktion überall source=Yahoo einzufügen) In der Suchfunktion gibt es ja modified - aber nicht new. Vielleicht id0 ? Mh... Viele Grüße, Alex ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] JOSM: Selektiere alle neuen Ways
Alexander Menk schrieb: wie selektiere ich denn in JOSM am einfachsten alle Ways (z.B. um nach einer Tracing Aktion überall source=Yahoo einzufügen) Falls es Dich interessiert, ich schreibe immer: YAHOO! aerial imagery. Ich finde, das ist aussagekräftiger, weil Yahoo alles sein kann (Informationen aus dem Suchportal, die Karten etc.). In der Suchfunktion gibt es ja modified - aber nicht new. Vielleicht id0 ? Mh... Ich habe in PHP ein kleines Script dafür gebaut, welches alle 0 Objekte genauso taggt. Allerdings finde ich es gerade nicht wieder. Wenn Du willst, kannst Du mir die OSM-Datei schicken, dann bastle ich etwas Anderes drum und schicke Dir die Datei zum Upload wieder zurück?! ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] JOSM: Selektiere alle neuen Ways
Hallo! Tobias Wendorff wrote: Alexander Menk schrieb: wie selektiere ich denn in JOSM am einfachsten alle Ways (z.B. um nach einer Tracing Aktion überall source=Yahoo einzufügen) Falls es Dich interessiert, ich schreibe immer: YAHOO! aerial imagery. Ich finde, das ist aussagekräftiger, weil Yahoo alles sein kann (Informationen aus dem Suchportal, die Karten etc.). In der Suchfunktion gibt es ja modified - aber nicht new. Vielleicht id0 ? Mh... Ich habe in PHP ein kleines Script dafür gebaut, welches alle 0 Objekte genauso taggt. Allerdings finde ich es gerade nicht wieder. Wenn Du willst, kannst Du mir die OSM-Datei schicken, dann bastle ich etwas Anderes drum und schicke Dir die Datei zum Upload wieder zurück?! Danke für das Angebot -- aber ist ja auch keine Dauerlösung, nicht? Da sollten wir lieber die Zeit in ne JOSM Lösung und ggf. ein Patch um den Key new einzufügen investieren. Viele Grüße, Alex ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Zusammenfassung des Treffens mit AEROWEST und weitere Planung
Am 2. September 2009 13:24 schrieb Tobias Wendorff tobias.wendo...@uni-dortmund.de: Im Endeffekt sind davon aber nur Dinge betroffen, die urheberrechtlich nach § 2 UrhG geschützt sind. Abdigitalisierungen aus Luftbildern fallen sehr wahrscheinlich unter § 2 UrhG, ob das jedoch auch für aus GPS-Tracks erstellte Ways gilt, mag ich mittlerweile doch bezweifeln. wieso nicht für tracks? Da ist die Schöpfungshöhe doch eher gegeben, z.B. durch die Auswahl, wo man langgeht (insb. wenn man nur deshalb dort langgeht, weil man den track haben will). Dagegen enthält ein Luftbild, mit dem man pauschal alles abbildet, deutlich weniger Schöpfungshöhe (nämlich keine). Datenbank entsteht in jedem Fall. Gruß Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] AEROWEST-Luftbilder: Was kann man damit machen?
Am 2. September 2009 14:15 schrieb Tobias Wendorff tobias.wendo...@uni-dortmund.de: Informationen erkennen und ableiten * Abbiegerelationen (Pfeile auf der Straße) * Mehrspurigkeit (Straße + Schiene) * Bürgersteige, Radwege, Straßenbeleuchtungen, Parken im Verkehrsraum * Parkplätze: Stellplätze zählen * Eisenbahnweichen, Wende-/Abstellanlagen * Überdachung und Art von Bushaltestellen * Farbe und Art von Hausdächern * Beschaffenheit und Oberfläche von Verkehrswegen * Vegetation +Formen von Gebäuden und anderem. Meistens reicht es ja, diese gut zu erkennen, damit man sie auch nach einem groben Yahoo-Luftbild nachzeichnen kann (die Details schätzt man anhand der guten Luftbilds ab). Gruß Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] AEROWEST-Luftbilder: Was kann man damit machen?
Martin Koppenhoefer schrieb: +Formen von Gebäuden und anderem. Meistens reicht es ja, diese gut zu erkennen, damit man sie auch nach einem groben Yahoo-Luftbild nachzeichnen kann (die Details schätzt man anhand der guten Luftbilds ab). Aufgenommen. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
