Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Gleason, > Friday, July 19, 2019, 2:42:09 PM, you wrote: Gleason>> HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why Gleason>> browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people Gleason>> use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. > Then stop showing emails without attachments as having a dozen or > more attachments. I can live with messed up display, but having to > dig through a list of attachment or tabs of different types of text > only to discover I'd already read it all is absurd. As for that > matter is defending it as the best there is and denying it's full of > issues. I would never argue its not the best there is, if with the > knowledge I have I didn't think that I'd be using something else, > but that does not change the fact that it's rather severely broken > with seemingly almost no hope of it ever being fixed. Or maybe it is simply that anybody who insists on trying to improve a product in the face of a dieing market for it and in the face of so little appreciation for their efforts must be a little crazy. So maybe we can forgive their oversights on that basis. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Gleason, > Friday, July 19, 2019, 2:42:09 PM, you wrote: Gleason>> HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why Gleason>> browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people Gleason>> use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. > Then stop showing emails without attachments as having a dozen or > more attachments. I can live with messed up display, but having to > dig through a list of attachment or tabs of different types of text > only to discover I'd already read it all is absurd. As for that > matter is defending it as the best there is and denying it's full of > issues. I would never argue its not the best there is, if with the > knowledge I have I didn't think that I'd be using something else, > but that does not change the fact that it's rather severely broken > with seemingly almost no hope of it ever being fixed. But no more broken and demonstrably less broken than the other choices. I certainly don't deny it has issues, and as I said I have my own with it. I also understand what it means to produce and maintain a product like The Bat. So, I am perhaps a little less outraged by its faults, and impressed by what it does accomplish. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Gleason, Friday, July 19, 2019, 2:42:09 PM, you wrote: Gleason> HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why Gleason> browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people Gleason> use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. Then stop showing emails without attachments as having a dozen or more attachments. I can live with messed up display, but having to dig through a list of attachment or tabs of different types of text only to discover I'd already read it all is absurd. As for that matter is defending it as the best there is and denying it's full of issues. I would never argue its not the best there is, if with the knowledge I have I didn't think that I'd be using something else, but that does not change the fact that it's rather severely broken with seemingly almost no hope of it ever being fixed. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Ira, > Hello Gleason, > Friday, July 19, 2019, 7:10:47 AM, you wrote: Gleason>> Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now Gleason>> defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. > It died because someone thought Thunderbird with a Eudora looking > theme would be enough, but Thunderbird is so far conceptually from > what Eudora was, it could never get close. I tried it. It called > itself Eudora, imported all my Eudora stuff, but then I had to use > Thunderbird which sucks so I kept using Eudora till it started > crashing and then moved to The Bat, something good enough for my > needs that I could live with it. But the list of the Bat's > idiosyncrasies is is long and troubling and no one seems to care to > fix them. You know, really basic stuff like properly displaying a message > with text and html. HTML being a moving target. That might have something to do with why browsers require such frequent updates. Good enough reason to let people use MS libraries to view html email like The Bat does. Maybe Rit thinks they have enough to do without constantly chasing evolving html. Thunderbird at least has the advantage of being able to tap into Firefox html display, which means Thunderbird's html is probably the best outside of MS libraries. My experience with programs that try to do various different things, is that they end up doing none of them well. Like, for instance, programs that try to do email and be a pim at the same time. Let MS take care of the html. Mailbird's html is quite good too if that matters to you. But in the end, choosing an email client is a matter of what you can live with as you say. > -- Ira -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 15:32 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >>> I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I >>> would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), >> But for some reason you did not. > The simple reason is that my OS/2 PC broke down. And I see that PMail on os2 is not the same as PMail on Windows (Pegasus). In any case, it does sound like you decided that The Bat was the best choice you could make. Agreed. > > So I looked for an alternative to PMmail on Windows, and TheBat! > with the same 3-panel window seemed to be the closest. > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Title: Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Hello Gleason, Friday, July 19, 2019, 7:10:47 AM, you wrote: Gleason> Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now Gleason> defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. It died because someone thought Thunderbird with a Eudora looking theme would be enough, but Thunderbird is so far conceptually from what Eudora was, it could never get close. I tried it. It called itself Eudora, imported all my Eudora stuff, but then I had to use Thunderbird which sucks so I kept using Eudora till it started crashing and then moved to The Bat, something good enough for my needs that I could live with it. But the list of the Bat's idiosyncrasies is is long and troubling and no one seems to care to fix them. You know, really basic stuff like properly displaying a message with text and html. -- Ira 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 15:32 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I >> would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), > But for some reason you did not. The simple reason is that my OS/2 PC broke down. So I looked for an alternative to PMmail on Windows, and TheBat! with the same 3-panel window seemed to be the closest. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 16:10 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >>> this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. >>> A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. >> I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. > You speak like the people on this job interview which the great > Argentinian cartoonist recorded in 9 images, each with a recruiter's > question (marked ¿>) and an applicant's response (marked <), plus a tenth > image showing the result: In this case, the important thing is that the system works, not what it is called. But ok, I will grant the distinction. What about the rest of my reply? > ¿> Name? > < March 19, 1924 > ¿> Address? > < male > ¿> Place of birth? > < married > ¿> highest degree in education? > < 79, Main Street, 2nd floor > ¿> sex? > < High School > ¿> profession? >> Peter Fireman > ¿> marital status? > < three thousand six hundred and twentyfour > ¿> nationality? > < pertussis in the age of 4, measles at 7 > ¿> Good. That's enough. You can start working tomorrow. > > The 10th image shows the applicant sitting at a desk marked "Information". > > You see, it doesn't matter what you say, it works. > > You tell me "Pay the bill I sent you", and I will think "OK, he > says that I should pay the bill, but as usual he means something > completely different, probably that I should instead go out and walk my dog. > > Why bother about language? > > Why use ADD in programming an addition, when you can write > SUBTRACT? Who cares, when Gleason does not care? > > > > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Freitag, 19. Juli 2019 at 16:10 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) >> this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. >> A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. > I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. You speak like the people on this job interview which the great Argentinian cartoonist recorded in 9 images, each with a recruiter's question (marked ¿>) and an applicant's response (marked <), plus a tenth image showing the result: ¿> Name? < March 19, 1924 ¿> Address? < male ¿> Place of birth? < married ¿> highest degree in education? < 79, Main Street, 2nd floor ¿> sex? < High School ¿> profession? > Peter Fireman ¿> marital status? < three thousand six hundred and twentyfour ¿> nationality? < pertussis in the age of 4, measles at 7 ¿> Good. That's enough. You can start working tomorrow. The 10th image shows the applicant sitting at a desk marked "Information". You see, it doesn't matter what you say, it works. You tell me "Pay the bill I sent you", and I will think "OK, he says that I should pay the bill, but as usual he means something completely different, probably that I should instead go out and walk my dog. Why bother about language? Why use ADD in programming an addition, when you can write SUBTRACT? Who cares, when Gleason does not care? Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, By the way, they told us in Software Engineering school years ago that there is no greater compliment you can pay to a programmer than "It works." Your code can be as sophisticated as you like, but users don't see that. > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 15:26 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > > this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. > A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. > You may select a small sample of unkown email clients My list is of the major players, I do a sweep once in a while to look for newcomers. Mailbird, for instance, is newer than the others. It appear in the past 10 years or so. I haven't seen any reasonably successful new clients since. All of the clients on my list have a large (shrinking) group of loyal, committed users willing to defend their choice on the battlefield. >which do it the wrong way. > Especially trying to build endlessly nested TABLEs, as TheBat! is doing, it > utter nonsense. It works. > The correct was has been specified already in 1998 in this > document to be found at W3C, HTML Threading: Conventions for use of > HTML in email written by Eric Berman (Microsoft Corporation), Pete > Resnick (QUALCOMM Incorporated), and Nick Shelness (LOTUS). Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. Eric and Pete should have realized that they would not be able to change a specification in use by a variety of clients and have them follow. One of the special challenges of email clients is that they need to be able to interact successfully with other clients that do things differently or even incorrectly. Mozilla has ignored this requirement in this case, and it has hurt the spread of Thunderbird users. >HTML hat two semantic tags for quoting: BLOCKQUOTE and Q. > BLOCKQUOTE is, as the name says, a block element, while Q is an inline tag. > > >From the above linked document: > > Appendix A: Suggested Implementation Guidelines > This section describes a suggested implementation model for UAs. > These are guidelines only and do not constitute a requirement for compliance. > Editing issues > Quoting during reply/forward > When quoting a message during a reply/forward, it is recommended > that the text be encapsulated with BLOCKQUOTE elements, with a CITE > attribute identifying the message being quoted, and optionally a > CLASS attribute defining default style information. (BLOCKQUOTEs > explicitly authored by the user should not have an CITE, or should > have a CITE pointing to the current message, so that they can be > distinguished from message excerpts.) > As a message makes several roundtrips, it may acquire several > nested BLOCKQUOTE blocks. Because most HTML implementations indent > BLOCKQUOTE text, the use of BLOCKQUOTE ensures that recipients that > support neither this recommendation nor CSS1 can still display an > appropriate level of indentation to the user. However, a mail UA may > choose to use other elements, such as DIV, if they do not wish to > use BLOCKQUOTE in order to achieve the same grouping of text within > a message (for example, for forwarding a message, where indenting may not be > desired.). > An application MAY choose to enclose all new message text in a DIV > block so that all text is unambiguously tagged. This is not strictly > necessary (since the lack of any explicit element or context > indicates that the text is new). UAs MUST respect this element. When > replying or forwarding the message, UA's MAY change the DIV to a > BLOCKQUOTE to avoid needlessly nesting a DIV within a BLOCKQUOTE. > Editing quoted text > It is common when responding to a message to edit within the quoted > block of text. For example, questions asked within the original > message may be answered one at a time in the response. These edits > can fall into two categories: "block level", where the division > between quoted and new text is a block-level boundary, and "inline", where > there is no such division. > If the user was starting a new block in the middle of an existing > one (by hitting enter, for example), the UA must restart the > existing style and CITE block after the BLOCKQUOTE. > For example, if the original text was: > • > ??The quick black fox?? > >?? > and the replying author hits enter before the word "fox", then the resulting > HTML would be: > • > ??The quick black > ?? >??You mean brown! >?? >??fox > ?? > ?? > The text "You mean brown" will thus appear on its own line and in > the style defined for "ericbe--microsoft-com". Since the new text is > not enclosed in any DIV or BLOCKQUOTE elements, it is considered part of the > current message. > Note that this may nest a
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> list [of email clients] I keep >> For instance here is my short list — with my comments regarding quoting HTML >> mails >> Becky - never heard of this >> Pegasus - does Pegasus still exist? >> eMclient - never heard of this >> The Bat - does it wrong >> Thunderbird - quotes correctly with HTML tags for quoting >> Postbox - never heard of this >> Maiilbird - unknown to me >> inscribe - never heard of this > What about Applemail? Outlook? Outlook express, MS Live? My interest is in high performance email clients. None of those qualify. They are general use clients for people who read an email, maybe reply and then delete it. But I do see that Outlook also does not show Mozilla quotes. At least for the ones who interact with me. The age of the general use email client is past. General users use webmail, texting on phones, and forums these days. The only market now is for high performance clients. Quote bars that don't show on other clients is not high performance. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Running The Bat! on wine by using GnuPG from Linux
Hello list, hello Maxim! The following problem isn't really a problem which should be solved next time: it's more a general issue with "The Bat!" running on Linux with a little help from wine. So nothing to really worry about. But maybe I can get some help or some ideas. Preface: Running "The Bat!" on top of a Linux installation with wine is working without any (known) problem. Also in this special case the interaction with GnuPG for encrypting and/or signing mails is working. I use GnuPG installed also in wine (GnuPG as its Windows version). The Idea: I want to use the GnuPG infrastructure directly which is installed in Linux. What is working: -"The Bat!" works -I can call GPG from the underlaying Linux via a simple symbolic link to '/usr/bin/gpg'. -GnuPG will read my keys correctly, see log from the console. --- output of Linux console --- sec:u:4096:1:67673EA872AD2EB6:1562876870:1720556870::u:::scESC::23::0: fpr:652D822DFB01726C37E5B55B67673EA872AD2EB6: grp:4814EA4B73394857D76E458114DE0C6A81BC00F8: uid:u1562877116::56E50EB55AAEBBAAE29FC9B267C7168DE5EA539D::Joerg Schiermeier (Das ist ein Testaccount.) ::0: uid:u1562877089::DDCF210BF75D183FDFCFBB96AF4730CE206E5930::Joerg Schiermeier (Das ist ein Testaccount.) ::0: ssb:u:4096:1:E404F244EB598803:1562876870:1720556870:e::23: fpr:DAC5D92E02064D3D1A72C720E404F244EB598803: grp:F589BE3F009FDE31064250F6A3D2D9CC8F9B52E5: --- // --- This didn't work: The transfer of this infos back to "The Bat!" fails. The "thebat32_Exceptions.log" said: --- thebat32_Exceptions.log --- The Bat! pro v8.8.9.0 (32bit) Date: 18 Jul 2019 00:43:05 OS: Windows 7 SP1 X64 (AMD or Intel) build 7601 PhysMemFreeTotal: 002047/002047 MB VirtMemFreeTotal: 002047/002047 MB CommandLine: C:\opt\winprog\thebat\thebat32.exe /nologo Bitness: x32 MAPI #0: Native Mail Client [Native Mail Client]; Path: C: \windows\system32\winemapi.dll (not valid) MAPI #1: The Bat! [The Bat!]; Path: C:\opt\winprog\thebat\tbmapi32.dll (valid) Default Profile: Address: 0144E076 ClassName: Exception Message: ExecuteStdApp PI.hProcess event error IsOSException: 0 Modules: 0040 20190604170359 C:\opt\winprog\thebat\thebat32.exe Stack: 0144E076 [0040] 0144E071 [0040] 004071D4 [0040] 0042DDE5 [0040] 01451156 [0040] 014512A4 [0040] 01451AFE [0040] 0144D2D9 [0040] 0161718D [0040] 016189ED [0040] 0161490C [0040] 016190F0 [0040] 01618E43 [0040] 00D9F334 [0040] 0162D76E [0040] 00B242D2 [0040] 00B26DC0 [0040] 00B26174 [0040] 00B27299 [0040] 00D9A878 [0040] 007A3428 [0040] 0080 [0040] 007A32B4 [0040] 004D74F8 [0040] 00CD425E [0040] 006A8567 [0040] 006A85AA [0040] 00CD425E [0040] 006A88DD [0040] 01846399 [0040] 01870F80 [0040] --- // --- Could anybody tell me what "ExecuteStdApp PI.hProcess event" means here? I want to examine this deeper and try to get a better connection to Linux GnuPG. This would be helpful to follow the way to run "The Bat!" correctly under wine/Linux. But please don't waste time for this - its only my interest to run "The Bat!" on Linux. As I said above: this is working nice with GnuPG for Windows. Thanks a lot! -- Best regards, Joerg Schiermeier Bielefeld, Germany -- productive: The Bat! pro v8.8.9.0 (32bit) - wine(at)Debian64 test environment (32bit + 64bit): The Bat! pro - latest beta wine: v4.12.1 - Debian64/bullseye: v4.19.37-5 (2019-06-19) 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 15:26 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > > this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. > A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. I guess I don't think it matters what it is called. > You may select a small sample of unkown email clients My list is of the major players, I do a sweep once in a while to look for newcomers. Mailbird, for instance, is newer than the others. It appear in the past 10 years or so. I haven't seen any reasonably successful new clients since. All of the clients on my list have a large (shrinking) group of loyal, committed users willing to defend their choice on the battlefield. >which do it the wrong way. > Especially trying to build endlessly nested TABLEs, as TheBat! is doing, it > utter nonsense. It works. > The correct was has been specified already in 1998 in this > document to be found at W3C, HTML Threading: Conventions for use of > HTML in email written by Eric Berman (Microsoft Corporation), Pete > Resnick (QUALCOMM Incorporated), and Nick Shelness (LOTUS). Qualcomm, which produced the (at one time widely used) Eudora email client, now defunct. They gave it to Mozilla where it has gone no where. Eric and Pete should have realized that they would not be able to change a specification in use by a variety of clients and have them follow. One of the special challenges of email clients is that they need to be able to interact successfully with other clients that do things differently or even incorrectly. Mozilla has ignored this requirement in this case, and it has hurt the spread of Thunderbird users. >HTML hat two semantic tags for quoting: BLOCKQUOTE and Q. > BLOCKQUOTE is, as the name says, a block element, while Q is an inline tag. > > >From the above linked document: > > Appendix A: Suggested Implementation Guidelines > This section describes a suggested implementation model for UAs. > These are guidelines only and do not constitute a requirement for compliance. > Editing issues > Quoting during reply/forward > When quoting a message during a reply/forward, it is recommended > that the text be encapsulated with BLOCKQUOTE elements, with a CITE > attribute identifying the message being quoted, and optionally a > CLASS attribute defining default style information. (BLOCKQUOTEs > explicitly authored by the user should not have an CITE, or should > have a CITE pointing to the current message, so that they can be > distinguished from message excerpts.) > As a message makes several roundtrips, it may acquire several > nested BLOCKQUOTE blocks. Because most HTML implementations indent > BLOCKQUOTE text, the use of BLOCKQUOTE ensures that recipients that > support neither this recommendation nor CSS1 can still display an > appropriate level of indentation to the user. However, a mail UA may > choose to use other elements, such as DIV, if they do not wish to > use BLOCKQUOTE in order to achieve the same grouping of text within > a message (for example, for forwarding a message, where indenting may not be > desired.). > An application MAY choose to enclose all new message text in a DIV > block so that all text is unambiguously tagged. This is not strictly > necessary (since the lack of any explicit element or context > indicates that the text is new). UAs MUST respect this element. When > replying or forwarding the message, UA's MAY change the DIV to a > BLOCKQUOTE to avoid needlessly nesting a DIV within a BLOCKQUOTE. > Editing quoted text > It is common when responding to a message to edit within the quoted > block of text. For example, questions asked within the original > message may be answered one at a time in the response. These edits > can fall into two categories: "block level", where the division > between quoted and new text is a block-level boundary, and "inline", where > there is no such division. > If the user was starting a new block in the middle of an existing > one (by hitting enter, for example), the UA must restart the > existing style and CITE block after the BLOCKQUOTE. > For example, if the original text was: > • > ??The quick black fox?? > >?? > and the replying author hits enter before the word "fox", then the resulting > HTML would be: > • > ??The quick black > ?? >??You mean brown! >?? >??fox > ?? > ?? > The text "You mean brown" will thus appear on its own line and in > the style defined for "ericbe--microsoft-com". Since the new text is > not enclosed in any DIV or BLOCKQUOTE elements, it is considered part of the > current message. > Note that this may nest arbitrarily deep, so it may be necessary > to close multiple BLOCKQUOTE elements and then reopen each one, with > the right CLASS and CITE attributes, and in the right order. > [follows an example of inline quoting using
Re: One more on chosing FROM name and address (was: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)))=
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 22:49 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > > Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email > address. Better > would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email > addresses, etc. > Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the > identity I > want from a drop down list. > See my feature request on this at 1291: To allow all mail > addresses associated with the server mail account to be configured in TheBat! > mail account > >> All but one eMail service providers I know allow each mail account >> to be associated with more than one email address, some limited to >> two, others to 10, still others without a limit. >> >> It would be very helpful if I could configure all those mail >> addresses with the corresponding account configuration in The Bat!. >> >> Such configuration could be used by TheBat! >> - to automatically select the proper account for sending mail >> depending on the "FROM" address in the mail; >> - to prevent accidentally sending out mail via accounts to which >> the FROM address of the mail is not related; in this case, TheBat! >> should open a dialogue "Do you really want to send this mail via that >> account" or so. >> >> It also helps the user to remember which email addresses are associated with >> which account. > Does that concur with your wish? Probably, but I do not expect Rit to make this change. I suspect that it would require a large intervention into their program design. It is not a reasonable expectation, and not really a show stopper for me. I use specific folders for specific correspondents, or group of correspondents, with a reply-to macro in the folder reply template. Close enough. Sometimes, I move an email to the folder that gives me the reply template I want to use. But, still, the identity lack is in my list of weirdnesses. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Chosing the FROM name and address in a drop down menu (was: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 22:49 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > > Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email > address. Better > would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email > addresses, etc. > Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the > identity I > want from a drop down list. > But you can with TheBat!. > > Click in the "FROM:" line of the header of a new mail, and it > turns into a drop down menu of your various identities. True, but I must create a separate mail server account for each. Since I use Fastmail, I can have a great many email addresses all of which point to the same server. I should be able to create identities for return email addresses that are not otherwise identified in The Bat. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Dienstag, 16. Juli 2019 at 12:49 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> It seems to me that Rit Labs is an economic marvel. They have >> produced the best product on the market and remain viable in a niche >> that many others have found bankrupting > I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I > would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), But for some reason you did not. Perhaps > no automatic mail check for imap, no message flag made Pegasus unusable for you as it did for me. Also it's imap implementation is not nearly as well done as The Bat's. David does continue to promise a much better version 3. But he is getting older, and he has been working on v3 for a long time. > but one should > consider that Moldova is a special place to live in. Cheaper to live > in but with easy access to a lot of other markets. There are a lot of cheap places to live in the world, all with easy internet access to other markets. Rit remains a marvel. David, for instance, lives in New Zealand. I suspect one thing that holds him back is that he continues to want to soldier on by himself. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > list [of email clients] I keep > For instance here is my short list — with my comments regarding quoting HTML > mails > Becky - never heard of this > Pegasus - does Pegasus still exist? > eMclient - never heard of this > The Bat - does it wrong > Thunderbird - quotes correctly with HTML tags for quoting > Postbox - never heard of this > Maiilbird - unknown to me > inscribe - never heard of this What about Applemail? Outlook? Outlook express, MS Live? Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 15:26 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) this universally accepted quoting is what I don't want to loose. A quote is a QUOTE, not a table. You may select a small sample of unkown email clients which do it the wrong way. Especially trying to build endlessly nested TABLEs, as TheBat! is doing, it utter nonsense. The correct was has been specified already in 1998 in this document to be found at W3C, HTML Threading: Conventions for use of HTML in email written by Eric Berman (Microsoft Corporation), Pete Resnick (QUALCOMM Incorporated), and Nick Shelness (LOTUS). HTML hat two semantic tags for quoting: BLOCKQUOTE and Q. BLOCKQUOTE is, as the name says, a block element, while Q is an inline tag. From the above linked document: Appendix A: Suggested Implementation Guidelines This section describes a suggested implementation model for UAs. These are guidelines only and do not constitute a requirement for compliance. Editing issues Quoting during reply/forward When quoting a message during a reply/forward, it is recommended that the text be encapsulated with BLOCKQUOTE elements, with a CITE attribute identifying the message being quoted, and optionally a CLASS attribute defining default style information. (BLOCKQUOTEs explicitly authored by the user should not have an CITE, or should have a CITE pointing to the current message, so that they can be distinguished from message excerpts.) As a message makes several roundtrips, it may acquire several nested BLOCKQUOTE blocks. Because most HTML implementations indent BLOCKQUOTE text, the use of BLOCKQUOTE ensures that recipients that support neither this recommendation nor CSS1 can still display an appropriate level of indentation to the user. However, a mail UA may choose to use other elements, such as DIV, if they do not wish to use BLOCKQUOTE in order to achieve the same grouping of text within a message (for example, for forwarding a message, where indenting may not be desired.). An application MAY choose to enclose all new message text in a DIV block so that all text is unambiguously tagged. This is not strictly necessary (since the lack of any explicit element or context indicates that the text is new). UAs MUST respect this element. When replying or forwarding the message, UA's MAY change the DIV to a BLOCKQUOTE to avoid needlessly nesting a DIV within a BLOCKQUOTE. Editing quoted text It is common when responding to a message to edit within the quoted block of text. For example, questions asked within the original message may be answered one at a time in the response. These edits can fall into two categories: "block level", where the division between quoted and new text is a block-level boundary, and "inline", where there is no such division. If the user was starting a new block in the middle of an existing one (by hitting enter, for example), the UA must restart the existing style and CITE block after the BLOCKQUOTE. For example, if the original text was: • The quick black fox and the replying author hits enter before the word "fox", then the resulting HTML would be: • The quick black You mean brown! fox The text "You mean brown" will thus appear on its own line and in the style defined for "ericbe--microsoft-com". Since the new text is not enclosed in any DIV or BLOCKQUOTE elements, it is considered part of the current message. Note that this may nest arbitrarily deep, so it may be necessary to close multiple BLOCKQUOTE elements and then reopen each one, with the right CLASS and CITE attributes, and in the right order. [follows an example of inline quoting using the Q tag, so that the quoted text does not appear in a line by itself] Try to do that with nested TABLEs (TABLE is meant to be nested arbitrarily deep), and it will create a madhouse. What TheBat! does is an abuse of HTML. If there would be an HTML police, TheBat! would be punished for this violation of fundamentals. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Lüko, > Hello everybody, > on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote > re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? > (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > >> Thunderbird - Must assign bcc by identity. Quote bar doesn't show on other >> clients. > Showing a bar to to mark a blockquote is the task of the > renderer. This is regulated in the CSS STYLE which does either > accompany the mail, or which is used by the receiving client by its default > STYLE. That's interesting. But my comment stands from my testing of different clients. If I send a quoted email from Thunderbird, no other client shows the quote bar. Only other Thunderbird installations do that. > > TheBat! does not mark proper quotes at all. > See »1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE« at Ritlabs' > Mantis bug tracker > > This is an error of TheBat!, not of Thunderbird. Regardless, the reverse is true of The Bat. All other clients, including Thunderbird do show quote bars sent by The Bat. > Cheers, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt am Main > Germany > using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) > OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) > CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ > MEM: 4097 MB -- Gleason 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
One more on chosing FROM name and address (was: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)))=
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 22:49 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email address. Better would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email addresses, etc. Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the identity I want from a drop down list. See my feature request on this at 1291: To allow all mail addresses associated with the server mail account to be configured in TheBat! mail account > All but one eMail service providers I know allow each mail account > to be associated with more than one email address, some limited to > two, others to 10, still others without a limit. > > It would be very helpful if I could configure all those mail > addresses with the corresponding account configuration in The Bat!. > > Such configuration could be used by TheBat! > - to automatically select the proper account for sending mail > depending on the "FROM" address in the mail; > - to prevent accidentally sending out mail via accounts to which > the FROM address of the mail is not related; in this case, TheBat! > should open a dialogue "Do you really want to send this mail via that > account" or so. > > It also helps the user to remember which email addresses are associated with > which account. Does that concur with your wish? Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Chosing the FROM name and address in a drop down menu (was: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 22:49 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) Yes, that allows you to tie a specific set of macros to a specific email address. Better would be to be able to specify a set of identities with different email addresses, etc. Then when I prepare a new email/reply, I should be able to simply choose the identity I want from a drop down list. But you can with TheBat!. Click in the "FROM:" line of the header of a new mail, and it turns into a drop down menu of your various identities. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Dienstag, 16. Juli 2019 at 12:49 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > It seems to me that Rit Labs is an economic marvel. They have > produced the best product on the market and remain viable in a niche > that many others have found bankrupting I can't comment on the "best product" (I am not satisfied, and I would have liked to continue using PMMail/2), but one should consider that Moldova is a special place to live in. Cheaper to live in but with easy access to a lot of other markets. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt))
Hello everybody, on Montag, 15. Juli 2019 at 19:55 Gleason wrote re ...working on version 9 — will essential changes be implemented? (was: The Bat! v8.8.9 MSI (3rd attempt)) > Thunderbird - Must assign bcc by identity. Quote bar doesn't show on other > clients. Showing a bar to to mark a blockquote is the task of the renderer. This is regulated in the CSS STYLE which does either accompany the mail, or which is used by the receiving client by its default STYLE. TheBat! does not mark proper quotes at all. See »1216: HTML viewer does not render BLOCKQUOTE« at Ritlabs' Mantis bug tracker This is an error of TheBat!, not of Thunderbird. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt am Main Germany using: TheBat! 8.8.2.8 (BETA) OS: Windows 7(NT 6.1 Build 7601 - Service Pack 1) CPU: AMD amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4200+ MEM: 4097 MB 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
