[Texascavers] Forest Service Implements Rules at National Cave Convention in Colorado to Prevent Spread of Bat-killing Disease
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2011/white-nose-syndrome-06-14-2011.html
[Texascavers] Forest Service Implements Rules at National Cave Convention in Colorado to Prevent Spread of Bat-killing Disease
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2011/white-nose-syndrome-06-14-2011.html
[Texascavers] Forest Service Implements Rules at National Cave Convention in Colorado to Prevent Spread of Bat-killing Disease
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2011/white-nose-syndrome-06-14-2011.html
[Texascavers] cave vandals caught
http://www.adventure-journal.com/2011/06/oregon-cave-art-vandals-nailed/
[Texascavers] cave vandals caught
http://www.adventure-journal.com/2011/06/oregon-cave-art-vandals-nailed/
[Texascavers] cave vandals caught
http://www.adventure-journal.com/2011/06/oregon-cave-art-vandals-nailed/
[Texascavers] Bats in a wall...
How unusual. Bats were found in an old building: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_localdallas/20110602/ts_yblog_localdallas/thousands-of-bats-invade-walls-of-historic-cleburne-building?bouchon=623,tx
[Texascavers] Bats in a wall...
How unusual. Bats were found in an old building: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_localdallas/20110602/ts_yblog_localdallas/thousands-of-bats-invade-walls-of-historic-cleburne-building?bouchon=623,tx
Re: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope
You better go kill a dolphin...you were wrong: Fluorescence is the emission of light by a substance that has absorbed light or other electromagnetic radiation of a different wavelength. [1]. It is a form of luminescence. In most cases, emitted light has a longer wavelength, and therefore lower energy, than the absorbed radiation. However, when the absorbed electromagnetic radiation is intense, it is possible for one electron to absorb two photons; this two-photon absorption can lead to emission of radiation having a shorter wavelength than the absorbed radiation. The most striking examples of fluorescence occur when the absorbed radiation is in the ultraviolet region of the spectrum, and thus invisible, and the emitted light is in the visible region. Fluorescence has many practical applications, including mineralogy, gemology, chemical sensors (Fluorescence spectroscopy), fluorescent labelling, dyes, biological detectors, and, most commonly, fluorescent lamps. --- On Thu, 6/2/11, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote: From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com Subject: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, June 2, 2011, 10:26 PM Something that can be charged up in light and then will glow for six hours is phosphorescent, not fluorescent. Sheesh!.--Bill Mixon, fussy editor No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Bats in a wall...
How unusual. Bats were found in an old building: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_localdallas/20110602/ts_yblog_localdallas/thousands-of-bats-invade-walls-of-historic-cleburne-building?bouchon=623,tx
Re: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope
You better go kill a dolphin...you were wrong: Fluorescence is the emission of light by a substance that has absorbed light or other electromagnetic radiation of a different wavelength. [1]. It is a form of luminescence. In most cases, emitted light has a longer wavelength, and therefore lower energy, than the absorbed radiation. However, when the absorbed electromagnetic radiation is intense, it is possible for one electron to absorb two photons; this two-photon absorption can lead to emission of radiation having a shorter wavelength than the absorbed radiation. The most striking examples of fluorescence occur when the absorbed radiation is in the ultraviolet region of the spectrum, and thus invisible, and the emitted light is in the visible region. Fluorescence has many practical applications, including mineralogy, gemology, chemical sensors (Fluorescence spectroscopy), fluorescent labelling, dyes, biological detectors, and, most commonly, fluorescent lamps. --- On Thu, 6/2/11, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote: From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com Subject: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, June 2, 2011, 10:26 PM Something that can be charged up in light and then will glow for six hours is phosphorescent, not fluorescent. Sheesh!.--Bill Mixon, fussy editor No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Ancient Cave Women....left childhood homes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13609260 Interesting psuedo cave related article.with perhaps some parallels to modern day cave women
[Texascavers] Ancient Cave Women....left childhood homes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13609260 Interesting psuedo cave related article.with perhaps some parallels to modern day cave women
[Texascavers] Ancient Cave Women....left childhood homes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13609260 Interesting psuedo cave related article.with perhaps some parallels to modern day cave women
Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
The article had links to a flickr slide show of the cave. And it also had a link to a google map location for the cave. --- On Tue, 5/31/11, Tim Stich timstic...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tim Stich timstic...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue To: Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 9:55 AM It's funny how news agencies all report that the man was trapped in the cave, which to me would indicate he had something pinning him down or that a collapse prevented getting out of the cave. News writers really don't appreciate that cavers are happy underground and that they put themselves there on purpose. So being underground a little longer than planned is just perhaps inconvenient. Maybe they could rewrite the story along those lines: An injured 51-year-old caver got to stay in the cave longer than expected as he was helped along by rescuers. On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-cave Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
The article had links to a flickr slide show of the cave. And it also had a link to a google map location for the cave. --- On Tue, 5/31/11, Tim Stich timstic...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tim Stich timstic...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue To: Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 9:55 AM It's funny how news agencies all report that the man was trapped in the cave, which to me would indicate he had something pinning him down or that a collapse prevented getting out of the cave. News writers really don't appreciate that cavers are happy underground and that they put themselves there on purpose. So being underground a little longer than planned is just perhaps inconvenient. Maybe they could rewrite the story along those lines: An injured 51-year-old caver got to stay in the cave longer than expected as he was helped along by rescuers. On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-cave Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
The article had links to a flickr slide show of the cave. And it also had a link to a google map location for the cave. --- On Tue, 5/31/11, Tim Stich timstic...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tim Stich timstic...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue To: Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 9:55 AM It's funny how news agencies all report that the man was trapped in the cave, which to me would indicate he had something pinning him down or that a collapse prevented getting out of the cave. News writers really don't appreciate that cavers are happy underground and that they put themselves there on purpose. So being underground a little longer than planned is just perhaps inconvenient. Maybe they could rewrite the story along those lines: An injured 51-year-old caver got to stay in the cave longer than expected as he was helped along by rescuers. On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-cave Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
[Texascavers] Finding Lost Cities in Eygpt with infrared
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13522957 This is an interesting approach being used to find Lost Cities and forgotten pyramids in Egypt. The program airs on the BBC on May 30, 2011. It would be interesting to see if this technique could be used to find caves.
[Texascavers] Finding Lost Cities in Eygpt with infrared
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13522957 This is an interesting approach being used to find Lost Cities and forgotten pyramids in Egypt. The program airs on the BBC on May 30, 2011. It would be interesting to see if this technique could be used to find caves.
[Texascavers] Finding Lost Cities in Eygpt with infrared
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13522957 This is an interesting approach being used to find Lost Cities and forgotten pyramids in Egypt. The program airs on the BBC on May 30, 2011. It would be interesting to see if this technique could be used to find caves.
Re: [Texascavers] Re: new mars sinkhole photo
If you zoom inThere are actually 4 parallel lines visible in the sinkole. Maybe they rigged it for a spring Caver / Naturefest party on Mars. --- On Sun, 4/24/11, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: new mars sinkhole photo To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sunday, April 24, 2011, 3:53 PM If you look closely at the floor of the sinkhole, there are two parallel lines running across the sinkole http://www.astroengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/hirise_esp_011386_2065_cut-250x250.jpg My best guess is the former cavers that were there rigged tyroleans, using one for filming. And due to lack of time or oxygen, they had to leave the pit rigged. If you download that image and zoom in, you can see the ropes are clearly above the floor of the cave, maybe by at least 100 feet. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: new mars sinkhole photo
If you zoom inThere are actually 4 parallel lines visible in the sinkole. Maybe they rigged it for a spring Caver / Naturefest party on Mars. --- On Sun, 4/24/11, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: new mars sinkhole photo To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sunday, April 24, 2011, 3:53 PM If you look closely at the floor of the sinkhole, there are two parallel lines running across the sinkole http://www.astroengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/hirise_esp_011386_2065_cut-250x250.jpg My best guess is the former cavers that were there rigged tyroleans, using one for filming. And due to lack of time or oxygen, they had to leave the pit rigged. If you download that image and zoom in, you can see the ropes are clearly above the floor of the cave, maybe by at least 100 feet. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: new mars sinkhole photo
If you zoom inThere are actually 4 parallel lines visible in the sinkole. Maybe they rigged it for a spring Caver / Naturefest party on Mars. --- On Sun, 4/24/11, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: new mars sinkhole photo To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sunday, April 24, 2011, 3:53 PM If you look closely at the floor of the sinkhole, there are two parallel lines running across the sinkole http://www.astroengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/hirise_esp_011386_2065_cut-250x250.jpg My best guess is the former cavers that were there rigged tyroleans, using one for filming. And due to lack of time or oxygen, they had to leave the pit rigged. If you download that image and zoom in, you can see the ropes are clearly above the floor of the cave, maybe by at least 100 feet. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] PNG Caves on Google Earth
After seeing Sanctum...I was interested in the real story of cave exploration in Papua New Guinea. And I have been reading Beneath the Cloud Forests by Howard Beck. It is a history of cave exploration in Papua New Guinea. Numerous expeditions were lured to PNG after seeing large mega dolines on aerial photographs taken by companies doing oil and mineral explorations. I wondered if these mega dolines would be visible on Google Earth...and sure enough...have found a few. Most of the aerials used by Google Earth for PNG are too low resolution (or the mountains are too obscured by cloud cover) to be of much use. But some of the mega dolines show up anyway. I have been looking for Nare. But the resolution appears to low to see the entrance. Here are a few that I have found: Minye: Latitude: 5°14'35.30S Longitude:151°30'16.50E Kururu: Latitude: 5°49'7.41S Longitude:151° 3'59.44E Unidentified Hole?: Latitude: 4°59'2.04S Longitude:142°30'24.14E
[Texascavers] PNG Caves on Google Earth
After seeing Sanctum...I was interested in the real story of cave exploration in Papua New Guinea. And I have been reading Beneath the Cloud Forests by Howard Beck. It is a history of cave exploration in Papua New Guinea. Numerous expeditions were lured to PNG after seeing large mega dolines on aerial photographs taken by companies doing oil and mineral explorations. I wondered if these mega dolines would be visible on Google Earth...and sure enough...have found a few. Most of the aerials used by Google Earth for PNG are too low resolution (or the mountains are too obscured by cloud cover) to be of much use. But some of the mega dolines show up anyway. I have been looking for Nare. But the resolution appears to low to see the entrance. Here are a few that I have found: Minye: Latitude: 5°14'35.30S Longitude:151°30'16.50E Kururu: Latitude: 5°49'7.41S Longitude:151° 3'59.44E Unidentified Hole?: Latitude: 4°59'2.04S Longitude:142°30'24.14E
[Texascavers] Dallas Morning News Article on Caving 101 at CaCa
http://www.dallasnews.com/travel/southwest/20110305-caving-101-at-carlsbad-caverns.ece From today's Dallas Morning News...
Re: [Texascavers] obnoxious landowners
Many recreational cavers have no desire to attend grotto meetings, but getting a monthly caving publication in their mailbox is a good start towards educating even the rawest spelunker about current events in the caving world. Do any Caving organizations other than the NSS actually send out Old School newsletters or caving publications that arrive in our mailboxes?
Re: [Texascavers] U.S. customs agents killed and wounded outside Monterrey today
to quote a famous song by Gil Scott Herron: the revolution will not be televisedapparently he was wrong in this instance. He also had a great song entitled Whitie on the moon...which is appropriate music for another topic of discussion today --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Diana Tomchick diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu wrote: From: Diana Tomchick diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu Subject: [Texascavers] U.S. customs agents killed and wounded outside Monterrey today To: Cave Tex texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 1:27 PM http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/15/AR2011021506693.html?hpid=artslot When does the revolution begin? Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) UT Southwestern Medical Center The future of medicine, today. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Sanctum
Not a dive trip? Huh? Nullabor was very much a cave diving trip/expedition. They used large underwater sleds (aka big diver propulsion vehicles) to haul massive amounts of tanks over long distances...and used dive scooters.and besides the epic flood and the incident; the cave and exploration were notable because of the length of underwater penetration by the divers. Someone, please correct me if I am wrong, but at the time the length of underwater traverse at Nullabor was considered a significant undertaking. And it would have been a note worthy expedition...even if the cave had not flooded in such spectacular fashion. I looked at the sketch map on the National Geo site for Nullabor...and I thought there was much cave mapped than what the sketch map indicates...has anyone seen another map of Nullabor? Also...As Sanctum supposedly takes place in Papua New Guinea...I was curious about PNG...and have been reading Beneath the Cloud Forests by Howard M. Beck. it is a history of cave exploration in PNG. Its a very interesting account of the early explorations and expeditions. My only complaint thus far...is I wish the book had a better overall map of the Caving Areas. I had to resort to referring to another map to keep track of where everyone was going to find caves. As for the filmwell...I chalked it up to Hollywood and entertainment. I am not a big fan of the mercy killings eithernor was I fond of the plot twist that sent the cavers further into the cave to escape the flooding. And I thought having an in-cave camp a foot or two above the sump pool was a bit ridiculous. But then so was the use of a fancy computer at the in cave camp...and having the cave wired with lighting. And did anyone else notice that they had 3 in cave camps...but it only seemed to take them a few hours to get to the dive camp? But those are nit-picky criticisms of details. So...we all know that one can not rely on Hollywood for a sense of realism or accurate detail in a caving movie. But then Hollywood films have never been about realism. One can see that in other new films such as True Grit...time, space, detail, and geography are all distorted in the storytelling within a film...and this distortion is deliberate and intentional to hold the attention of the audienceit is a part of the genre of film. I might add that I thought the character development was a miss also...they hinted at the motivations of cavers to explore...but only on the shallow superficial level of a cliche...for all of the fancy stunts and special effects; they failed to capture the human experience of exploration...or for lack of a better term the act of caving. What drives people to explore caves? Sanctum could have asked that question...instead of bogging itself down in showy stunts and mercy killings. I am not embarrassed in the least bit for James Cameron...but it is unfortunate that Sanctum is such a spectacular missed opportunity to create a more authentic film about the nature of exploration and the underground world. My 5 cents... --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Karen Perry txcavem...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Karen Perry txcavem...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sanctum To: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 9:37 AM The only thing I found in common with Nullabor was both take place in a cave. Nullabor wasn't a diving trip was 13 people no one died or was seriously injured. Karen --- On Mon, 2/7/11, David Ochel li...@ochel.net wrote: From: David Ochel li...@ochel.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sanctum To: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 10:57 PM So, Bill, Is there anything on: Based on the true story of co-writer Andrew Wight. He once went cave diving and became trapped with fourteen other people in a cave for two days. Their entrance collapsed and they had to look for another way out. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0881320/trivia in your library? Here is what Google found: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/sanctum-the-real-story-6322/blog http://www.cavediving.com.au/cave-diving-articles/1988/12/4/13-hauled-to-safety-from-cave/ By the way, as opposed to others, I was reasonably entertained by the movie... ;-) Cheers, David On 1/27/11 6:48 PM, Mixon Bill wrote: They certainly do play fast and loose with geography. The original event on which the story was based was in Australia. The cave in the movie is said to be in Papua New Guinea, which is a great area for caves, but with its high relief, I wouldn't expect the very long, easy (except for length) sumps like in the original cave in Australia. And then of course some of the stuff appears to have been shot at Golondrinas in Mexico. Poetic license. -- Mixon A fearless man cannot be brave. You may
[Texascavers] Cavers in Puerto Rico?
Does anyone have any caver contacts in Puerto Rico? I will be down there in a few weeks...and think it would be fun to going caving for a day or two. Please respond OFF LIST.
[Texascavers] Stenlight wire connectors problems?
Has anyone experienced problems with the wire connector plugs on Stenlights? My Sten light seems to be having some issues.
Re: [Texascavers] 9:00 CDT tonight: World's Biggest Cave on National Geographic channel
This show is replaying on Monday, December 27th at 5 pm Plenty of time to hit those post Christmas sales and buy a BIG screen TV. --- On Mon, 12/20/10, Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote: From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com Subject: [Texascavers] 9:00 CDT tonight: World's Biggest Cave on National Geographic channel To: Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, December 20, 2010, 8:06 PM A reminder that the NG channel has a show on the World's Biggest Cave in one hour: tonight at 9:00 pm. Unfortunately, I don't have a wide-screen TV; the images may not fit on my small old TV. Logan - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Lost World blog on NY TIMES website
http://scientistatwork.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/17/following-maps-and-finding-a-lost-world/?ref=science This is an interesting BLOG on the NY Times website, posted by a expedition in Madagascar. In this and other posts; they have visited quite a few caves. They don't have a TV show requiring a big TV...but each blog is an interesting read.
Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Caving on the moon
Maybe the TCMA ( aka...The Caving on the Moon Association) will buy it for us. --- On Mon, 12/20/10, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: From: Gill Edigar gi...@att.net Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: Caving on the moon To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, December 20, 2010, 8:58 AM Take a look at this Devils Sinkhole type collapse cave presently located on the moon. --Ediger -- Forwarded message -- From: Philip Balister phi...@balister.org List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:10 PM Subject: Caving on the moon To: siv...@listserv.vt.edu http://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/looking-into-a-lunar-cave Philip - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Devils River State Natural Area
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/texas/features/art29779.html I think the seller is Rod Sanders of Dallas. Apparently, if it is the same Sanders, he is a trustee with the Nature Conservancy. --- On Fri, 10/29/10, edwin lehr edwin_leh...@hotmail.com wrote: From: edwin lehr edwin_leh...@hotmail.com Subject: [Texascavers] Devils River State Natural Area To: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 9:11 AM For those Texans who think this public land swap and taxpayer money transfer is something we should not do, I have included the contact information of the person you should voice your concern to. If we remain silent it's as if we don't matter. Ted Hollingsworth Texas Parks and Wildlife Department Land Conservation Director ted.hollingswo...@tpwd.state.tx.us (512) 389-4520 office (512) 389-4469 fax If you email him you will received the following. Mr. Lehr, Thank you for sharing your concerns about TPWD’s Devils River Ranch project. The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission has not made a final determination regarding this project. On November 4, 2010, the Commission will decide whether or not to authorize the Executive Director to continue project evaluation potentially resulting in a transaction. Public use planning for the site is only conceptual at this point. TPWD’s goal is to improve public access to this spectacular Devils River , while protecting fragile natural and cultural resources and respecting the rights of other property owners on the river. We are aware that transfer of the State Natural Area (SNA) will affect paddlers who currently enjoy paddling the reach from Bakers Crossing to the SNA, and are looking into alternatives for preserving that recreational opportunity. We also understand that uncontrolled or poorly managed access to the river will result in negative impacts and is not in the best interest of the resource. The public will have the opportunity to voice concerns, suggestions or support for the project before the TPW Commission on November 4. For more details about the proposed transaction please visit information posted on TPWD’s home page. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/news_roundup/devils_river_land_acquisition/ In the mean time, your comment has been added to the public comment record. Edwin Lehr
[Texascavers] Lumens ?
I have a question for you engineers. The Sten light power brightness summary : http://www.stenlight.com/fact-sheet.htm States that on TURBO setting with no limiting the LUMEN output is 140 lumens...and at the top of the chart it says the units are LUMENS 2 ( squared). What does that mean? What is the actual LUMEN output? I am trying to compare the LUMEN output of a Stenlight to a cycling light that claims to put out 1400 LUMENSand I simply do not believe that it is 10 times brighter than a STEN Light. I would be running into a lot of trees if the Stenlight is truely that dim
[Texascavers] cave closures
Please excuse my recent rant concerning TPWD cave closures due WNS. I apologize if my rant offended anyone. For the record; I think we should do everything we can do to preserve bat populations; because like Logan, I can't imagine Texas without bats. I understand that most of the caves closed are caves that I do not care to visit anyway. I am not a big fan of going into active bat caves. But I am still opposed to reactionary cave closures; because I do not think it makes any sense. What is to stop an infected bat from flying from one colony to another? Are they going to close the bat caves to bats too? Is there scientific proof that closure stops the spread of WNS? Call me paranoid; but I am concerned that the limited closure will spread to other caves on Public Land and that could be carried over to private land caves. And if WNS is truely a threat to Texas bats; why is Punkin Cave still open?
Re: [Texascavers] dumb list
After 30 years of active caving...and very few incidents to report from vertical caving; I recently found myself in this predicament. My t shirt was pulled into my rack...through to about the second bar. My first impulse was to try to cut it loose...but fortunately did not have a knife. As it was a short ³nuisance² drop; I had thought ³why bother² putting on climbing gear²its just a short drop². But then found my self about 6¹ feet from the top. And 50 feet or so from the bottom with my shirt being torn from my body.which didn¹t really bother me...but seeing my rack becoming jammed was alarming. I thought about waiting for help. And while a couple of cavers at the top of the drop looked for a free hand lineI made a ³loop² of rope, from below me, with my foot on the bottom of the loop and my right (strong) hand grasping the loop AND the climbing rope. I ³stood² up on the loop to take a little bit of tension off of my rack...and with my left hand pulled my shredded t shirt free. It was a good reminder to always be vigilant. On 5/25/10 9:53 PM, Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net wrote: Unfortunately, this kind of rope cutting is more than just a hypothetical possibility. A very serious accident of this type actually happen to a caver in the Colorado Grotto during the time that I was a member there before moving to Austin. He was rappelling down a cliff during a ropework practice and training session with a group of cavers, when his rain poncho got caught in his rack. He attempted to cut the poncho free with a knife, accidently cut his rope instead, and took a long fall onto the rocks below. The accident was not fatal, but it easily could have been if he had landed differently or if the falling distance had been a little longer. He did receive multiple fractures in the leg and hip and, even after many months of recovery, had to use a cane when walking. Like most of the serious accidents involving cavers I have known, this one did not happen to some novice caver who didn't know what he was doing. Instead, it happened to a very experienced caver who fully understood what he was doing. In fact this caver had been involved many times with teaching vertical techniques to new cavers, including the standard warnings about not using knives or other sharp objects near the climbing rope. Some people even recalled one or more earlier training sessions when this caver had done rope cutting demonstrations to show new cavers how easily a rope could be cut when it was under tension. He clearly understood the potential risk, but apparently was overly confident about his ability to cut only what he intended to cut while doing what he and other experienced cavers routinely warned new cavers not to do. In retrospect, it was easy to see multiple ways that this accident could have been avoided. If he had used an extra ascender or rappel safety device above his rack to temporarily relieve rope tension in the rack, then he probably could have removed the poncho from the rack with no cutting. If he did not have the equipment with him to do this, then other cavers nearby could have lowered extra equipment to him on another rope. If no equipment of this type had been available, they could have lowered a second rope to him, so that he could have attached the second rope to his harness like a belay to relieve tension on the rack. In fact, there was already a second climbing rope rigged near the one this caver was using, so, if necessary, another caver could have gone to his aid on the second rope. Of course, a poncho is not the best type of clothing to wear while rappelling, either, even if it is raining. The primary lesson from this incident is not so much that cavers need the equipment and knowhow to do things safely (which, of course, they do), but rather that they need to be diligent about actually using the safety equipment and knowledge they have instead of letting overconfidence tempt them into risky shortcuts. Rod -Original Message- From: Geary Schindel Sent: May 25, 2010 2:23 PM To: Charles Goldsmith Cc: Mixon Bill , Cavers Texas Subject: RE: [Texascavers] dumb list If you respond by cutting your hair out of a rack with a knife, then it is a very real possibility of cutting the rope and that gets you back on the list of 52 ways to die in a cave. The times when I knife is a solution to a problem in vertical caving is very rare. You can almost always find a technical solution using the tools you have on you most importantly your experience and your brain. Geary From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:19 PM To: Geary Schindel Cc: Mixon Bill; Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] dumb list Depends on how much hair as well.. a few strands, would sting... a whole pony tail worth of hair would be very painful On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Geary Schindel
[Texascavers] Another cave-like building
I find it interesting that there are some many new cave like buildings..from the new Las Vegas casino project by Jean Nouvel, based on Caves.( he got the geology wrong, but cool building ).The gambling halls are designed to look like large cave rooms. And now the torch at the winter games was obviously inspired by the Naica Cave And now this Taipei performance venue: http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/9286/mario-bellini-architects-ta ipei-pop-music-center.html - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns
I would agree with AndyI am not one of the states foremost snake-i-tologists, picnic-i-tologists or gun-i-toligists...nor do I own a gun. But in over 30 years of caving in Texas and in the rattlesnake invested Arbuckle Mountains; I have never seen the need to carry a gun, or shoot a snake in or out of a cave. In fact; I might add, a foremost observant, competent caver can typically detect the presence of a rattlesnake by simply checking the entrance of a cave before entering it, by simply tossing a couple of rocks or making some noise with a stick.the tell tale signs of rattlesnakes are pretty easy to pick up...even if one doesn't have a fire armfor one thing; they usually will rattle...and for another; rattlesnakes typically smell really bad. Guns maybe useful as a prosthetic penis...but guns are not necessary for caving or snake detection. --- On Mon, 2/22/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns To: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 9:09 AM Guns and caves don't mix. I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of a cave when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a ledge in the same sinkhole. They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, apparently oblivious to the ricochets. Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not. Gun play is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of cause and effect often required in caving. If you showed up for a caving trip with a gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass. Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 andy@gluesenkamp.
[Texascavers] A 'cave boutique
No need to dye trace this ³cave²...and it comes complete with the latest fashions and LED lighting http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/9170/suppose-design-office-karis .html
Re: [Texascavers] Re: underground texting
I will refrain from texting underground...so do not see the need to abbreviate. If I am ever in need of a rescue while caving; you should expect to NOT hear anything from me. Sonext time I post on my facebook page that I am going caving...and IF NO ONE receives a text from me...you should ASSUME that I have fallen down a deep pit, have broken my leg and have become STUCK and incapaciatated from high CO2 Levels..So it would be best to call out the NCRC, The Republican Guard, the Department of Homeland Securityand possible the Air Force and the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders to come rescue me. Remember: NO TEXT while UNDERGROUND Means I had an accident. BUT IF YOU do receive a TEXT from me...then that means everything went OK. Of course; this presents a dilemna...as I typically do NOT TEXT everyone I know if the caving world...the LACK of a TEXT doesn't necessarily mean that I need to be rescued...but just to be SAFE and Avoid CONFUSION...it would be best that if there is NO TEXT from me; you should call out a rescue anyway. --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: From: Gill Edigar gi...@att.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: underground texting To: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 9:32 AM I'm behind you Brian. We gotta get this thing going before it gets any further out of hand. What good are laws if you can't restrict people's rights freedoms with um? We've got to protect the world's idiots from themselves. --Ediger On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Brian Riordan riordan.br...@gmail.com wrote: Yes! Quick Gill, alert the Government so they can save us from our foolish selves! Does your congressman receive texts? That might be the quickest and most efficient way to get this passed in a timely manner. If you could abbreviate your words by eliminating vowels or truncating common words in a confusing memory saving manner, it might expedite the process. A quick statement might be Move quickly and ban all text messsaging activities being performed in caves please. Which would then read: mv qly bn al tx msg actvts bng prfd in cvs pz Which could then be interpretted on the recieving end as Mauve quietly and begin anal texas massages bouncing perforated in CVS pharmacies, which of course makes no sense, but no time for thinking, only doing. We'll make a law of this yet! I'm gonna go get some sharpies and foam board to make picket signs. Stay strong, -B On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Gill Edigar gi...@att.net wrote: I'm pretty sure that this is not a safe practice. I'm gonna write my congressman as soon as I'm through here and suggest that he initiate legislation banning texting whilst caving. --Ediger On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 2:06 PM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: I found his science fair project fascinating. Back in 2004 or 2005, there was a post on Cavetex about beaming data from the bottom of a surface pit up to the base-camp. I think the article suggested that a new technology like Bluetooth would emerge. The idea didn't have any merit at that time, partly because there didn't seem to be a practical reason for it. But with text messaging, cavers can adopt a new set of standard speleo-texting language ( STL ): like stalgmt, stalctit, H2O, gwno, freatic, vedoz, CaCO3, CO2, falt, etc. For example, the 1st responder could relay a message to the surface: vktim slippd n gwno, trippd ovr stalgmt hit hed on stalctit, landed on bum slid dwn flwston, fell n H20, washd dwnstrm ovr falls. Brok bth ankls. Need strtchr team rope! Heez hypothrmk hed bleedn The rescue team on the surface would get the following message: ktim slppdngwno, trpp vrtalgmt ht talctit, lad onum sldn flston, fll n H0, wsd dnstm or flls. Bok th akls. Ned trchr eam ope! eez ypothrm ed ledn But they might be able to decipher part of that. Also, I wonder if the first cavers on Mars will use part of his idea for communication? Maybe he can get a NASA contract? Is there a potential market for an Portable Underground Texting System ( PUTS )? Which caves would this work best in? the remote areas of Jewel Cave or Wind Cave, or long sections of a lava tube ? Any particular Texas cave where this might be handy? The back of Airman's cave? David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com -- Brian Riordan 979-218-8009 (Mobile) riordan.br...@gmail.com
Re: [Texascavers] Brad Pitt buys house with cave.
http://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/brad-pitt-buys-bachelor-pad-01-26-2010 Don't get too worked up...it's a man cave. Not sure what THAT is proof of...but maybe Angelina will spill the sordid details --- On Tue, 1/26/10, Mallory Mayeux mmay...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mallory Mayeux mmay...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brad Pitt buys house with cave. To: tbsam...@verizon.net Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 3:46 PM If I ever needed proof that Brad Pitt was sexy in every conceivable waynow I have it. -Mallory On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:20 PM, tbsam...@verizon.net wrote: According to the tabloids.. he's bought a bachelor pad with a cave. T. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] cave like house.....
http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/8827/search-and-cma-villa-vals.html Here is an interesting cave like house
Re: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
I have kept paper copies of the Texas Caver around for over 30 yearsthere hasn't been any degradation, other folded corners or slight yellowing of the paperand I haven't had to make new copies every 10 years or so..and unlike digital copies which may, by the admissions below, not be around in 30 years...I suspect my boxes of Texas Cavers will out live me. --- On Fri, 12/18/09, Glen Goldsmith glen.goldsm...@gmail.com wrote: From: Glen Goldsmith glen.goldsm...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data To: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 10:41 AM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Expected_lifespan In short, Mixon is right - you'll have to copy the contents of a CD-R/DVD-R pretty often. More so than 20 years though. I've read an article, can't remember where - that said a CD-R that could last 10 years was pretty good. Organizing cd/dvd's by age seems like a good idea for this. Who's got the time for that though? In the process of moving, I was able to get data off of CD-R's (single speed, gold backed) as late as 1996. Silver backed single speed CD-RW's written around this time were completely unreadable, causing me to lose some data from that era. Just don't be fooled that they'll last 20 or 30 years. In my personal experience, they don't. Glen On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: David Locklear said: I think the next hurdle is to develop a laptop that doesn't use batteries, and uses a crank and some kind of power saving device not affected by storage. Why not make your computer solar powered? I don't know the expected lifetime of solar panels, but ones stored dry and in the dark might last a long time. Take them and your archived computer out into the sun and let 'er rip. Presumably there will still be sunshine, unless the future is a Matrix sort of world. ;-) Actually, electricity will still likely be used and available in some form for a long time. Just provide a simple set of terminals on your computer and any power source of the future with the proper voltage and amperage should work. The bigger problem would be communicating anything 500 years into the future. What language would you use? Bill Mixon said: Anyway, there wouldn't be any convenient way to get the data out of the computer, even if you could read it on screen. It seems likely that some sort of scanning technology will be around for quite a while. Assuming the language on the screen could be understood, it shouldn't be too much trouble to scan it, or take the equivalent of movies of it, and then convert that into whatever the current digital format is. Again the bigger problem would be making the archived output meaningful. Pictures might be better than anything written. Mark You may reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
I want to save the TSA from financial ruinI will go digital if Ediger renews his membership. Anyone else willing to make that commitment? On 12/14/09 1:14 PM, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Welcome back, Karen! Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
Re: [Texascavers] SUCKERS REVISITED
Shouldn¹t this subject fall into the category of ³Don¹t ask, Don¹t tell² ? On 10/26/09 7:35 PM, Carl Kunath carl.kun...@suddenlink.net wrote: Louise is refering to a photograph that was not posted to TexasCavers but rather to a small number of former Carta Valley cavers and was not intended for the entire TexasCaver audience. That said, there is a detailed history in 50 YEARS OF TEXAS CAVING, pages 199-205. ===Carl Kunath - Original Message - From: Sheryl Rieck mailto:shri...@cableone.net To: 'Texas Cavers' mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:00 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] SUCKERS REVISITED For those of us who do not know the story behind CVSUCKS, would someone post a history? Sheryl From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:11 PM To: Texas Cavers Subject: [Texascavers] SUCKERS REVISITED For those of you who didn't recognize practically anybody in the SUCKERS pic because they looked so old, get a clue. When CVSUCKS started 40 years ago, most of us were in our mid-to-late 20s. For the math-impaired, that makes us in our mid-to-late 60s. Of course we're OLD FARTS now, gray or bald, and, for those of us whose injuries have made us less than spry, somewhat rotund. But we're still SUCKERS at heart. As the old saying goes, aging is mandatory, growing up is not. And, if truth be known, I didn't recognize but four for sure either. I've been out of Texas, but not uninterested in Texas goings on, for 30 years. And just remember this, for the next SUCKERS 40-year reunion, you, too, will be old, gray or bald, and probably rotund...if you're lucky. THE 68 Y.O. LITTLE OL' LADY No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.33/2461 - Release Date: 10/26/09 20:22:00
[Texascavers] Google maps seeking nominations
Google maps is seeking nominations for where to ride their trike...that is specially equipped to record a 360 view...there are some examples on the website of Santa Monica Pier yawn.and a shopping mall...yawn yawnand the Monterrey Bay Bike Trailok...a little better. They are seeking nominations for other places to ride. We should all nominate Carlsbad Caverns. Hey if the Big Room Trail is ADA accessible...surely you could ride a trike around it. Click the link below and nominate away! https://services.google.com/fb/forms/streetviewussuggestions/?utm_campaign=e nutm_medium=hautm_source=en-ha-na-us-gns-svn
[Texascavers] Scary underground tunnels....
Not real sure what's so scary about these tunnels..but these are some pretty cool cave like photos: http://smoont.com/10-scariest-underground-tunnels/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Speleotherapy related
I wonder if they serve pretzels, pop corn or beer in the salt cave? On 10/3/09 2:05 PM, Matt Turner kat...@yahoo.com wrote: Those are some awesome Pseudo-science websites you found there. Seems everyone is getting on the Ionized Air craze. http://www.thebiomatcompany.us/ Who knew that the all the human races' ills could be healed by Salt, Amethyst, and Infrared? Man you would have thought nature would just provide such thingsoh wait. Matt Turner It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do that.- Norman Vincent Peale From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Sat, October 3, 2009 12:45:20 AM Subject: [Texascavers] Speleotherapy related This is some kind of health spa in the Himalayas: http://media1.pioneerlocal.com/multimedia/ch-saltcave-100109-p4_pp_feed_200909 29_22_21_45_4411-400-283.imageContent Here is one in Vermont that advertises as, Speleotherapy Clinic. http://www.pyramidvt.com/pyramid_holistic_wellness_center_009.htm Does the 2010 NSS Convention registration include a session there ? Here is a company that claims to sell materials to build your very own Speleotherapy chamber http://www.paksalts.com/index.php?controller=categorypath=32 Anybody out there had a salt cave session ? David Locklear Ref: http://www.showcaves.com/english/explain/Misc/Speleotherapy.html http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001741.html http://www.halotherapy.com/ http://www.natural-salt-lamps.com/polishsaltmines.html http://www.qsensei.com/content/14vsss - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Slide scanning services?
Can anyone recommend a good slide scanning service? Have thousands of old caving slides.and would like to get some scanned. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Big Brother
Scan away...I have nothing to hide.Its all around us...and is probably pointless to worry about. Yes...The new passports are scannable...and many countries that require VISAs are making those scannable as wellOn a recent trip to BrazilMy VISA and passport was scanned in Brazil and was surprised that they just implemented that technologyand my passport was scanned coming back into the US And I was scanned on a trip to Europe before thatso it is not just the US heading this way.. And my drivers liscense was scanned when I was recently stopped for speeding. The county officer had a handheld wireless scanner...and a printer on his belt...just like they use in the Apple storethere was one guy stopping speeders such as me...and one guy in the police car checking people out on the computer. And my bank has been using the thumbprint authorization for a few years. I suspect this is just part of the world now...and although I am concerned about privacy...it is hard to take that very seriously...since I do use facebook...and subscribe to several e-lists such as this. There are bigger problems in the world than this. --- On Tue, 9/1/09, Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Big Brother To: 'Mixon Bill' bmixon...@austin.rr.com, 'Cavers Texas' texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 12:18 PM Microwave disables the strip? Or was it the freezer? Passports have them too, at least the new ones do. -Original Message- From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 12:07 PM To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] Big Brother Nobody has mentioned that we've had to give a thumbprint to get a Texas driver's licence for at least ten years now. What the hell does a thumbprint have to do with a driver's license, you may well ask. Well, my understanding it that it was a federal mandate having something to do with tracking down deadbeat dads who haven't been paying child support. The magnetic strip on my current driver's license probably won't work, because I've made a point of trying to erase it, without any way to tell for sure that I have. Not that it can be read remotely, but if anybody ever wants to scan it, I probably won't be in a very cooperative mood. Nobody ever scanned the last one I had. Of course, with the new driver's licenses we're supposed to be getting soon, there will be a lot more irrelevant stuff on them. Probably there will be some easy trick to disable the RFI chip in the new licenses--something more subtle than drilling a hole through it. Of course, the more paranoid among us will never, ever use a tollway pass-- Mixon A fearless man cannot be brave. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] free diving in sumps-or not
We used to free dive several sumps in some Oklahoma caves..while surveying one water cave; we realized that there was a submerged passage coming into the cave from one side...on the next survey trip; we brought in a mask...and by dropping under the water could see the mirrored surface of the water in a large room about 6 feet away. So we used a piece of webbing as a dive line...and someone dove through...it popped up into a large room! We realized that SOME sumps were just duck-unders in disguise. That first room led to a second, longer duck-under...it was about 16 feet long...and led to several thousand feet of virgin passageOur technique evolvedwe started rigging the duck unders with old PMI caving rope...and used the rope to pull ourselves through...that was easier than carrying flippersand eventually we were leaving drop weights ( dive weights with brass latches) at duck-unders that we crossed frequently for longer survey trips into the cavewe used the drop weights to ballast our packs to keep them from floating up and snagging on the ceiling ( which did happen once or twice...it was a scary moment)we were very cautious when doing these free dives..We finally found a couple of sumps that we didn¹t feel comfortable free diving...they were either too deep or too long or at the base of a waterfall...and we switched over to proper cave diving gear. I am sure that one of these days someone will get access to that cave again...and will wonder why someone would stash dive weights in such odd locations On 8/28/09 9:43 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: I love freediving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmv84gLdSdA My deepest dive (resulting in the biggest fish) on the video was 60ft. That's about 120ft, roundtrip. I can't imagine doing 395ft on a single breath but the world record (without fins) is well over 300ft (600ft roundtrip). Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com --- On Thu, 8/27/09, tbsam...@verizon.net tbsam...@verizon.net wrote: From: tbsam...@verizon.net tbsam...@verizon.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] interesting news - free diving in sumps To: dlocklea...@gmail.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 5:54 AM I did Aqua in Bath County VA in 1995 or 1996. T Aug 26, 2009 10:28:10 PM, dlocklea...@gmail.com http://us.mc320.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: How many of you have ever been in a cave and done a duck under ? Like maybe in Honey Creek, where you hold your breath for just a second and go thru a very short sump and pop out on the other side. Or how about free diving a very short sump where you have to swim a few feet like in Carrizal or Acahuizotla? Well here is a very crazy guy in Austalia that went 395 feet on a single breath of air thru an underwater cave passage: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article6808538.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00605/news_dive_605008a.jpg Here is a summary: Mike Wells swam through Fish Rock Cave in only two minutes and 40 seconds. He narrowly averted disaster when his MONOFIN became trapped in a narrow crevice. His son, a member of the support team, freed him. ³It was very hard,² Mr Wells said. Mr Wells, who describes freediving as a ³grand madness², followed a rope to dive down to the tunnel entrance and swam through the cave to the pool of light that marked its exit. The cave, on the New South Wales coast, has an ocean surge that sweeps through the narrow chambers. Most experts thought the cave was too long and dangerous for anyone to get through without oxygen tanks. Mr Wells¹s respiratory specialist, Professor Matthew Peters, described the pressure that would be placed on his body: ³During this dive, his lungs will compress dramatically, his diaphragm will move up, his ribs will cave in,² he said. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com http://texascavers.com/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com http://us.mc320.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=texascavers-unsubscribe@texasc avers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com http://us.mc320.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=texascavers-help@texascavers.c om - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
Did someone mention Dallas? On 8/25/09 7:49 PM, Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Whoa. After cave-camping without water except for food for a week life is still good, and squizzin¹ still worth it. But there is not going to be that little water. Besides options are limited unless you want to go to Dallas for TCR. So OKAY all is good and get it on! From: Andy Zenker [mailto:andyzen...@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:38 PM To: TexasCavers Subject: RE: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion Sungglin' with your main squeeze ain't so fun when you got the stank on... but do-able I suppose Andy Zenker Texas Caver --- On Tue, 8/25/09, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote: From: Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion To: TexasCavers texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 5:38 PMSurely we¹re cavers and can wait til we get home to clean off? Would save a bunch of hassle/TCR expense Stefan From: Rod Goke [mailto:rod.g...@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:36 PM To: TexasCavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion If I remember correctly, there was running water available in the restrooms, and there was a hose from that building to the cooking area, supplying water for dishwashing, hosing off, etc. If that's still available, I don't see any need for a water truck. Is there any reason to think that that water supply will not be available at TCR this year? Rod -Original Message- From: cavera...@aol.com Sent: Aug 24, 2009 12:26 PM To: gonza...@msu.edu, texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion Regarding washing, etc., water at TCR: how much would it cost to have a non-potable water truck or trailer placed at the site for hosing off, filling the hot tub, etc. if there is no flowing water at the time of the event? Is that feasible? Roger Moore -Original Message- From: Fofo gonza...@msu.edu To: texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 11:19 am Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion G'morning! Speaking of Tlaloc... Here's a short story that I like very much, from Paco Ignacio Taibo II, called Tlaloc: http://tinyurl.com/l3tybz It's in Spanish. I couldn't find a translated version, but here's a Google translation: http:/tinyurl.com/lv3xbh Some things sound funny, but I guess that you can follow most of the story in English (it translated the name of a town, Los Tecomates, as the gourds, and it definitely can't handle swear words and slang, but it's amusing to read neither mothers for ni madres). - Fofo Allan Cobb wrote, on 24/8/09 8:12: Oztotl says there will be at least some water. Oztotl has spoken with Tlaloc and they are trying to work out a deal. - Original Message - *From:* wesley s mailto:mudmal...@hotmail.com *To:* a...@oztotl.com mailto:a...@oztotl.com ; texascavers@texascavers.com mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com *Sent:* Monday, August 24, 2009 10:06 AM *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion Yes but will there be water to swim in? If levels get too low all of the flow out of that reservoir will go down that diversion channel and not over the dam. Is there a river authority for the Medina? Will they let it run dry or do they have to keep the river bed wet for the fish and wildlife? Wes~ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Seeking Logan McNatt's email address!!!
logan.mcn...@tpwd.state.tx.us On 8/5/09 7:32 PM, Marlena Cobb marlenac...@hotmail.com wrote: If anyone has it, could you please send it to me? Many thanks! ___ Each man is haunted until his humanity awakens -Blake Windows Live: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_syn c:082009
RE: [Texascavers] Re: ICS Amazing Backpack Stories
LOL..Lesson learned once againNEVER LEAVE your back pack ALONE with Bill Steele for even a NANO-SECONDor you WILL end up with a rock in your pack. Thats like one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS of CAVING Thou shalt not trusteth thine pack to the Man O Steele... --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: From: Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: ICS Amazing Backpack Stories To: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org, Frank Binney fr...@frankbinney.com Cc: Texas Cavers texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 12:20 PM Bill Steele has told similar stories and is famous for this. You were just one of the fortunate recipients. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 10:34 AM To: Frank Binney Cc: Texas Cavers Subject: [Texascavers] Re: ICS Amazing Backpack Stories And how long have you known Bill? Caved with him? Really cool story about the Grand Canyon and your pack though. Charles On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Frank Binneyfr...@frankbinney.com wrote: On 7/29/09 8:46 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: So Frank, what's this I hear about you and your extra big backpack? Actually I had two amazing backpack experiences at ICS: 1) Back in the early 1970s I visited a multiple entrance cave in the Grand Canyon. Technical climbing was required to reach the entrances, and wetsuits were required to negotiate the stream passage deeper inside the cave (which, by the way, had been mapped by Rune and other Texas cavers back in the 1960s). We entered by way of a dry upper entrance, where I stashed the brand-new expensive backpack I had used to transport the wetsuits, rope and climbing gear. Twelve hours later, exhausted from pushing tight leads deep in the cave, we decided to save time by rappelling down to the Colorado River by way of a lower, wet entrance. As dawn light began to illuminate the Grand Canyon, we pushed off down stream in our oar raft and it was shortly thereafter I realized my expensive new backpack remained in that upper entrance. Over the next 35 years, especially when I passed below those cave entrances on numerous Grand Canyon raft trips, I wondered what might have happened to that pack. So imagine my surprise at the ICS banquet when Bob and Debbie Buecher came over and asked if I was missing a backpack. A few years ago Bob was at that particular entrance and noticed a dusty pack stashed on a ledge. He's got it at his home in Tucson and plans to reunite me with it. 2) My other ICS amazing backpack story concerns the charity of my good friend Bill Steele. One day I loaded up my backpack with heavy books I planned to mail home (ICS proceedings, Derek Ford's Castleguard book, Bill's Huautla book, a coffee table-sized French caving diving book, the Vertical Bill Cuddington bio, etc.) Unfortunately, the campus mail center was closed when I arrived but Bill Steele graciously allowed me to stash the pack in his truck while he, Diana and I attended the photo salon. Later that night he was kind enough to hand deliver the pack to me in Groad Hollow. As I schlepped the pack across campus to my apartment, I remember thinking how smart I was to be mailing those books home--they weighed a ton and never would have passed airline weight limits. The never morning I struggled to get the heavy pack on my back and made the long walk the length of the campus from the Pecan Grove apartments to the registration building coffee shop. The mail center wasn't open so I carried the pack around most of the day, criss-crossing the campus numerous times for various sessions. Finally I made it to the mail center with the backpack, where upon transferring the contents into Priority Mail cartons I discovered a quite large, beautifully stream-sculpted, authentic Texas karst rock in the bottom of the pack. What a thoughtful gift--Thanks, Bill! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Gold mines in Texas
When checking a cave near Montell and Camp Wood years ago...we were shown a pit that the landowner claimed was an old silver mine. I was dubious..but we checked it. And it was obviously an excavated hole...and not a cave. In southern Oklahoma (north of here, in case you were wondering)there are legends of someone absconding with 20 ³jackloads² of goldI have heard two versions. In one version, its the native Americansand in another confederate troops. Anyway, at least one or two versions claim the gold was hidden in a cave. Not quite the same as a minebut similar. AnywayWindmill Cave near the Wichita Mountains has been one of the suspected locations. We mapped the cave in the late 80s and named a hidden room as the ³treasure² roombut the gold wasn¹t there when we left the cave. On 6/25/09 10:58 PM, Geary Schindel gschin...@mindspring.com wrote: I¹ve been to one of the silver prospects in Uvalde County. It is about 20 feet long and 5 high by 4 foot wide. It is in an igneous intrusion within the Edwards limestone on the edge of the hill country. It is unclear what the age of the mine is but the land owner, who has had the property in his family for more then a hundred years, said it wasn¹t worked by any of his family. It may date back to pre settlement times or maybe even early Spanish explores. Generally, it is thought that they carried the ore to the nearby river where they pounded it into fine dust and then separated it by gravity (panning method) Also, the Frio, Dry Frio, and to some extent, the Nueces rivers have traces of gold in the sediments of the river (placer deposits). So, yes, there is gold in them there hills. There is actually a description of a mine near Concan that was active in the late 1800?s which had some pretty nice assays of gold but very limited amount of ore. The mine was never very productive from what I understand and was soon shut down. Geary
Re: [Texascavers] ICS
Why was the River Walk tour canceled? Is there a threat of spreading WNS to the pigeons? On 4/17/09 8:58 AM, Jim Kennedy jkenn...@batcon.org wrote: Yes, but be prepared to rigorously follow all decon procedures. No bat caves will be visited during that trip. -- Crash From: Preston Forsythe [mailto:pns_...@bellsouth.net] Sent: Thu 4/16/2009 10:01 PM To: Cave Tex Subject: [Texascavers] ICS Is the Northern Mexico pre-convention trip still on? Preston in western KY - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com http://texascavers.com/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Dada means Death!
I would think that playing Russian Roulette...you would be a ³dumb-ass² way before getting to the 6 out of 6 times.in fact; if you are at that point in life.you have probably been one for much of your existence On 3/22/09 11:37 AM, Ron Miller rons...@yahoo.com wrote: Back in the 60's and 70's we used to consume a lot of beer on long drives to caving activities. Drinking and driving was an accepted fact of life then and today no one can honestly say that DWI is a socially acceptable behavior. The previous reply seems to point this out. It is almost 2010 and some folks believe time stopped in the 70's. There are plenty of rock-n-roll legends now gone as a result of their Russian Roulette. From: S S back2scool...@hotmail.com To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:42:29 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Dada means Death! The thing about Russian Roulette is. your a bad ass 5 out of 6 times and a dumb ass the other time. From: qui...@clearwire.net To: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 09:19:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Dada means Death! How would you have felt if they had caught you? RE: Some years ago I went to Malaysia. The first thing I saw when I got there was a big billboard that said Dada (drugs) means Death and had an actual hangman's noose draped over the top to make it clear that drug users would be imprisoned and drug dealers would be executed. So what was the first thing I did? Go buy some drugs! So I hope Allah was looking when I displayed my middle finger to him and all of his fanatical followers, regardless of whether they wear wrapped rags, gold crosses around their necks, ten gallon Stetsons, or shiny new badges. They can all kiss my ass! (sorry for the French). The fact that organized criminals often own the grow houses is just more evidence that the only people who should be allowed to grow pot should be little old ladies with an organic garden in the backyard! Sleazel Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. See how. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_ WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme
Re: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul
Excuse me for sounding like a sour pussbut it is a quarry.AND WHY isn¹t anyone¹s ³soul hurting² for the caves that have been and are being destroyed by urban sprawl in Central Texas? In my humble opinion; building houses, Walmarts, hotels, strip centers AND patronizing those business is a much greater sin against nature..and yet I know cavers and other environmentalist types who love to live out in those brushy hills...and buy all their cheap plastic stuff at Walmartand love to go for a Saturday drive in the ³country² on freeways that trench a horrid scar across our beautiful karst many of us add our little piece of this damage everyday through our daily actions. It ³hurts my soul² that I live this way...and have little choice in the matter. To complain about a house in a quarry, that some call a cave, seems to me a bit inauthentic...and it covers a pain that we all feel when we consider the damage being done all around us. If this type of thing offends us, we should be called to action. We should be lobbying for ³urban growth² boundaries for out cities to protect the remaining hill country, before it ALL becomes covered with parking lots and fry pits and Walmarts and Big Box retailers. We should being saying enough to the everyday excessive use of automobiles AND insist that development be SMART. We should support initatives that create walkable, more dense cities that have and support mass transit. I could go on.but will not. But I do hope that we can all see the ³cancer² that we are creatingif ones desire is to save caves; one might start by looking at the real problemand that is how we use our fragile land everyday. And excuse me if I sound brash...I woke up with some kind of stomach crud this morning...jb On 2/20/09 5:10 PM, Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote: Why would anybody want to ruin a perfectly good cave with a house? What family of 5 needs 17000 sq ft? What happened to all the cave formations? Where does their waste go? Does it pollute the ground water? It looks cool, but degrades the whole area! I was appalled. When I was in what was then called Yugoslavia, there were people in the Karst Mountains living in caves out of necessity, not necessarily because it was cool. They also penned up their livestock right there in the entrance. (Where is Glade room freshener when you need it?) Louise Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:31:07 -0800 From: kat...@yahoo.com To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=330306913609ssPageName=ADM E:B:EF:US:1123 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemamp;item=330306913609amp;ssPag eName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123 Just in case someone wants a cave home in missouri. I'm sure it had low energy bills. Matt Turner It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do that.- Norman Vincent Peale
Re: [Texascavers] guano question
I may have been in deeper or worse guano before.but the grossest for me was in Stowers Cave in Texas. I went a little way past the bat room at the back into a crawland the floor was about 16 inches of bat guano with the gelatinous quality of jello.the smell was horrid...and I was gagging from the ammonia...and I tried to minimize my point of contact with the floor as much as possible...but every time I put a hand or foot down...it sank through the bat guano-jello and make a quishing sound.after about 30 feetI was rewarded with the coolest white calcite that was forming on top of the guano jello into a small stalactite and several layers of splash ringsi got the picture..by very carefully balancing my camera box and camera.as I was afraid that my camera box would sink into the guano-jello if I set it down..fortunately my squish holes remained and I was able to retreat following my steps...I was recovering from a respiratory infection at the timeand being around that guano didn't help.come to think about itneither did the millions of gnats all through the cavebut it was odd...there were not any gnats in the bat room On 12/4/08 9:40 PM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: I am just curious which cave passages have you experienced your worst encounter with bat guano. For me, it was the last pit in Emerald Sink, but I heard someone tell me that there is a pit off the main route of the cave which is the worst they have ever seen. Another time near Ocampo in the Sierra Madres, we were in an open air pit and on some ledges was what appeared to be vampire guano, but we didn't have to get near it. I guess being in Bracken or Frio at the peak of the guano freshness would be another place. I have also been in water that had a high concentration of bat poop. The wet entrance of Carrizal can be like that. I don't think I have ever been waste deep in a slurry of bat guano, but nearly was on a trip to a pit ( Sotano Molino ? ) just outside of Gomez Farias. But I seem to recall reading about someone who has. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] 2008 DFWG Holiday Party
Metroplex Cavers, Its that time of year again.dig those white elelphant gifts out of the closetand plan on attending the DFWG Holiday Party. The details: December 13, 2008 7:30 pm until 1:00 am 6879 Avalon Avenue Dallas, Texas 75214 214.320.0166 What to bring ? BYOB. Potluck food ( wouldn¹t it be nice if everyone cooked their favorite holiday dish?) Pictures of of your latest caving adventures ( we will have a slide projector and digital projector ) Tales of daring, heroic trips and don¹t forgetbring a white elephant gift to recycle through the grotto THE RULES: 1. All white elephant gifts brought or received must be removed from the premises after the party. We will keep a list of who is naughty and nice 2. Please do not park in the yard. 3. Friends or relatives recently released from prison or mental hospitals are encouraged to attend the Bexar Grotto Holiday party. 4. All Metroplex and Texas cavers are invited; however the formation of new Grottoes at the party is strictly prohibited. 5. Please drink responsibly and designate a driver. 6. Objects with large steel wheels should not be rolled around inside of the house.
Re: [Texascavers] TSA Election Results
I have the tabulation of votes. But not the total number of voters. However, It appears that there were approximately 82 votes cast out of a membership of around 220. On 11/19/08 7:24 AM, speleoste...@tx.rr.com speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote: Hi Jackie, I'm curious: how many TSA members voted out of how many eligible to vote? Also, how much of a difference did it seem to make having ballots at TCR? I thought that was a good idea. Bill J. LaRue Thomas jlrbi...@sonoratx.net wrote: Thanks, all who worked on the elections. Congratulations to the new officers! Jacqui - Original Message - From: John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net To: Texas Cavers texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:59 PM Subject: [Texascavers] TSA Election Results TSA Members and Texas Cavers; I am pleased to announce the results of the TSA Election of officers for 2009: Chairman: Mark Alman Vice Chairman: Rob Bissett Treasurer: Darla Bishop Secretary: Denise Prendergast Congratulations to all. And thank you to all candidates who accepted a nomination and ran for an office. Thanks go to Linda Palit for soliciting nominations. And thanks to Ron Ralph for counting the votes. Please plan on attending the TSA Winter Meeting at Colorado Bend State Park in January. The date coincides with the monthly Colorado Bend Project and is listed on the TSA activities calendar on the website. Go Caving! John Brooks 2008 TSA Chairman - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] TSA Election Results
TSA Members and Texas Cavers; I am pleased to announce the results of the TSA Election of officers for 2009: Chairman: Mark Alman Vice Chairman: Rob Bissett Treasurer: Darla Bishop Secretary: Denise Prendergast Congratulations to all. And thank you to all candidates who accepted a nomination and ran for an office. Thanks go to Linda Palit for soliciting nominations. And thanks to Ron Ralph for counting the votes. Please plan on attending the TSA Winter Meeting at Colorado Bend State Park in January. The date coincides with the monthly Colorado Bend Project and is listed on the TSA activities calendar on the website. Go Caving! John Brooks 2008 TSA Chairman - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Texas Architect Magazine:
W's gestapo has taken on that moniker as well.. On 9/5/08 8:21 PM, Gill Ediger gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote: At 12:41 PM 9/5/2008, RD Milhollin wrote: I just saw this article in the magazine. Kudos to BCI, beautiful design. You will notice, I hope, that the Texas Society of Architects has unceremoniously usurped the initials TSA without the slightest pretense of shame. --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] World Heritage Site panography
http://www.world-heritage-tour.org/ I found this site to be quite fascinating. They are creating panographs of UNESCO world Heritage and posting these to this site. The intent is to make it possible for those who are disabled or otherwise cannot make the trip to visit and experience something of the sites. There are even a couple of CavesThere are a couple of nice panographs of the entrance areas around St. Pauls Cave in the Phillipines. You have to register...and if you have a slow connection; it will not be a pleasant experience waiting for it to download. But with DSL or a cable modemthey download very well.
Re: [Texascavers] Wall Arch collapsed
I wonder if people climbing on it had anything to do with the collapse On 8/10/08 8:00 AM, Gill Ediger gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote: The not-so-well-known Wall Arch in Arches National Park has collapsed. Photos at: http://mountainproject.com/v/southern_utah_deserts/geology_in_action/10622543 4http://mountainproject.com/v/southern_utah_deserts/geology_in_action/1062254 34 There's a link to an article in the text. And NPS article at: http://www.nps.gov/arch/parknews/news080808.htmhttp://www.nps.gov/arch/parkn ews/news080808.htm --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Caves in South America
Interesting articlethey were surprised to find water in a cave in the driest place on earth.and then they were surprised to find animal bones in another cave?seems like they should have invited a PHD in Common Sense along on their expedition. On 8/1/08 11:23 AM, Gill Ediger gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote: At 09:33 AM 8/1/2008, Jon Cradit wrote: http://www.livescience.com/environment/080731-cave-water.html Thermal Imaging to find caves on Mars. How 'bout putting some of that Thermal Imaging to work finding the caves here on Earth. Say like Edwards County. Huh? --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] NSS Convention
I have been an NSS member for close to 30 years...and to date have been to a
full convention once...and parts of a convention twice...and I would say that I
am a very dedicated member despite not fully drinking the kool aide every
summer.
I would enjoy attending more conventions...but would rather spend my vacation
time in other ways. I think it would be great if portions of the convention
were webcast for us dedicated other cavers.
Perhaps we should elect directors that share the vision or desires of the
members.
And...I agree with Mr. Ediger; the TSA would well advised to consider how we
can leverage technology to better suit the needs of our geographically diverse
membership.
Bill Walden wdwal...@windstream.net wrote:
BLOCKQUOTE { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } DL {
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } UL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px;
PADDING-TOP: 0px } OL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } LI {
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px }A reply to William Hart Russell:
The NSS Convention moves around enough that it is within a day's drive for
most of us every few years. My family has always made it a vacation - a week at
convention and a week touring.
I don't believe that digital interaction can ever replace personal
interaction and hands on experience. I continue to look forward to the NSS
Convention every year that I am able to attend.
That said, I do agree that a caver does not have to attend conventions to be
a dedicated NSS member.
Best regards,
Bill Walden
- Original Message -
From: William H. Russell
To: Philip L Moss ; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] NSS Convention
I am looking forward to the day when the NSS Photo Salon is shown
live on my 65 inch LCD TV in my living room, along with the
exploration
programs, and video salon, etc.
David Locklear
The opinions offered below are my own.
I hope the NSS never shows the photo salon or any other convention
activities live. NSS membership retention (not recruitment as many would
have you believe) is way down. From the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s, the
NSS Convention had attendance that was equivalent to 20% of the
membership. Since 1976, the largest convention has been equivalent to
14% of the membership and many have been under 10%, although at least one
flaw in my model is the fact that membership retention did not plummet
until 1995 (Does anybody know what it was the NSS did in 1995 or possibly
1994 to so disaffect its members?) It is my opinion that membership
retention is affected strongly by personal interaction among the members.
Convention attendance is one of main things that separates a committed
member from a magazine subscriber. The NSS can not thrive by having any
number of subscribers to the NSS; there are way too many activities that
the NSS depends on volunteers to run. Voting generally tracks the
attendance at the previous convention.
I believe that conventions are the glue that holds the NSS together and
we need more glue, not less. The more one can get the benefits of
convention without attending and having the personal interactions of
actually attending, the poorer the NSS will be. People who routinely
attend NSS conventions are more likely to volunteer their time, donate
their money, and vote for Directors.
Philip L. Moss
Former NSS Director and recovering speleopolitician
philipm...@juno.com
On the other hand perhaps the decline in NSS retention post 1995 is
because the NSS directorate is holding on to a rosy nostalgia of driving across
the country to meet their friends at a convention as the glue that holds the
NSS together; while the general society is moving to digital interaction.
Cavers along with everyone else increasingly see little need for everyone to
gather in one place; and perhaps, given the time and expense as even
counterproductive. Retention in any group is affected strongly by personal
interaction between the members, but having to drive across the country to do
this would appear to be a strategic weakness.
In the digital age one should not have to attend a convention to be a
committed member. It might be to increase retention we need to find
directors that are more comfortable with digital interaction. They will spend
the time and energy to make the digital NSS more than a magazine subscription.
Bill Russell
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[Texascavers] Wikipedia and St. Pauls Cave
Here is one that you missed David. It has a wikipedia page also. But the UNESCO page has more information. http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/652/ I visited this while I was in the Philippines in June. It is quite spectacular and a very fun tour. You take a banca across a bay on the south China Sea to the entrance. Then walk through the jungle and see large monitor lizards. The tour is conducted in mostly Tagalog with a few english words tossed inand from the laughs of my two traveling companions...the narrative was very colorful. I was able to understand Texas sized.while the guide shown a light on a large stalagmite. After the tour, I talked to the guides that spoke english. They reported that the river is navigable to a rock slide around 4.5 kilometers into the cave. But the tour only goes about a kilometer. You do pass through some very large chambers.and in a very spots...tantalizing black holes could be seen high up on the walls. There weren't any obvious infeeders...and the guides said that there are not any tributaries that enter the cave..but there was a lot more water coming out of the entrancethan was going in at the insurgence. I asked the guides if it was possible to make a through trip...and I got several different answers.but later talked to a guide who helped explore the cave. And he said a breakdown pile can be reached from both sides...but it was not possible to find the way around. After our tour; we walked back to Sabang on a trail called the Monkey Trail. Its a wooden walkway that climbs up and over the spectacular tower karst that surrounds the underground river. It seemed like there were caves and pits everywhere. Or at least enough to keep a few cavers occupied for a couple of days. After the tower karst the trail wound through the jungle to several isolated crescent shaped coves...where you could see coral reefs just below the surface of the ocean. Swimming was not permitted due to the coral...but we finally found a beach and took a swim. As we approached Sabangwe had to wade across the discharge from the mangrove swamp as it flowed out into the sea.and I was stunned by how much water was coming out of the swamp. The fresh water discharged from the swamp was much greater than the subterranean river appeared to be..later that day, we toured the mangrove swamp. And we passed several openings that appeared to be caves where the swamp came up to the karst.our guides were not aware of anyone ever entering these entrances. I asked where the fresh water came from...and was told that there are several large springs...but the tour did not get close enough to see these. We spent several more days in Sabang enjoying the beach and snorkeling on the coral reefs. And we heard that there are numerous large pits and caves up in the mountains.but it was a three day round trip hike just to get up there..There are also several other wild caves that you can tour.and some areas of amazing tower karst surrounded by rice patties. Of course those rice patties were once mangrove forests. We also met the Mayor of Puerto Princesahe has been very instrumental in getting the National Park established and getting UNESCO recognition for the Subterranean River...He asked me when can you come back and see the other caves? - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Music in Caves
There is a hotel built in a lava tube in the canary islands as wellthe pool is in a large sinkhole. And adjoining sinkholes have restaurants in them. Of course the public spaces and corridors run through the lava tubes. And I think the rooms are built in smaller sinkholes. It is quite a famous resort boutique type hotel. The hotel was built back in the 60s or early 70s...and was designed by a famous french painter and sculptor...although I don't remember his name at the moment. An article on the hotel appeared in the New York Times magazine...sometime last year. On 7/12/08 1:26 PM, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: I was along as a safety diver with a well-known cave scientist, actually a respected Texas biologist, actually Texas AM's own Tom Iliffe, several years back on a trip to the Atlantic Island of Lanzarotte in the Canary Islands. The cave he was sampling in is a huge lava tube that plunges from a volcano in the middle of the island down to the coast and then under the seabed. Before the tube encounters the coast the government established a unique national park called the Jameos del Agua, encompassing three major sinkholes. One was the entrance to a part of the tube used as a concert hall, one was whitewashed and embellished by a famous local artist, and the one closest to the sea was the entrance to a large nightclub-restaurant. The last two were of course connected by the lava tube, and this passage was home to a very rare shrimp. People could pass through the tunnel on a walkway, leaving the heat and glare of the outside for the cool semi-twilight of the cave. Signs in several languages begged tourists not to throw coins into the water, but can guess what the result of that was. The first time I went in there something about the place was suddenly strange but familiar. It took several minutes to realize that the cave had a soundtrack, and that was the familiar part. The music itself is strange... Ambient One: Music For Airports by Brian Eno. Very cool! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3
On 6/27/08 6:01 PM, George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com wrote: This is the notorious problem with Wikis. In principle they allow a great and open exchange of information, but in practice the lack of quality control allows anyone to post just about anything, even information that is terrible wrong or short-sighted. The International Congress of Speleology next year in Texas will broaden many US cavers¹ perspective, but if anyone reading this can make it to France this August, the European Congress of Speleology will be an amazing event in a spectacular karst area and I encourage you to go. http://www.vercors2008.ffspeleo.fr/ George (and not nearly as famous as some poor well-intentioned Wiki-writer thinks) From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 4:15 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3 David Locklear said: There are 41 questions on the new wiki-answers page after just one week of being up: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/4337 The list seems a bit ³Texas centric²maybe Texas really is ³The Center of the Caving Universe². John Brooks I take issue with the suggested answer to the first question: Who are the top 10 most famous speleologist? (That should be speleologists, plural; same with question 5.) The names given are embarrassingly U.S.-centric. There is only one non-American listed, and that is a French archaeologist I've never heard of. What about people like Norbert Casteret? Bill Stone is listed as the only human to reach the deepest point in a cave. Say what? Which cave? He's never even been to the deepest cave in the world (Krubera/Voronja) as far as I know, and I don't think he's the only person to get to the bottom of any deep cave. That answer should be pulled. I'm afraid to look at any of the others... Mark Minton
Re: [Texascavers] RE: Cave rescue in Tennessee?
It is interesting that they left to go caving at 10 pm.alcohol and testosterone must have played a big part in their expedition planning. On 3/21/08 9:06 PM, Minton, Mark mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote: Frank Binney posted: Search Underway for 4 Missing Tennessee Cavers The following was posted today on VARList. I like how they say that the lost cavers could not be heard over the noise of the waterfall, rather than pointing out that cell phones don't work underground. :-) Mark Minton From: Meredith Hall Johnson Sent: Fri 3/21/2008 8:41 PM To: varl...@listserv.vt.edu Subject: [VARLIST] TN Cavers Safe--article Hi all, I just came across this news item on wtop.com. None of these guys are in the 2007 NSS Members Manual. 4 Tenn. Cavers Found Safe After Search March 21, 2008 - 8:03pm TOWNSEND, Tenn. (AP) - Rescuers found four cavers cold and wet but otherwise safe after they didn't return as planned from an overnight spelunking trip in Great Smoky Mountains National Park. The four were found around 2 p.m. Friday in Rainbow Cave. They had left Maryville, Tenn., around 10 p.m. the night before and had expected to return five hours later. It is not clear why they didn't. The wife of one of the cavers, Garry Blakesley, a 24-year-old youth minister in Maryville, reported the group missing around Friday morning. Also missing were Blakesley's brother, Dustin Blakesley, 17; Jake Layman, 17; and Chris Smith x-excid://9FC1/jmp:http://wtop.com/?nid=733amp;inform_keyword=Chris+Sm ith http://wtop.com/?nid=733amp;inform_keyword=Chris+Smith , 20, all of Owasso, Okla. x-excid://9FC1/jmp:http://wtop.com/?nid=733amp;inform_keyword=Oklahoma http://wtop.com/?nid=733amp;inform_keyword=Oklahoma They had little or no experience in caving and were very poorly equipped, park spokesman Kent Cave said. Once they discovered they couldn't get out, they apparently called for help but couldn't be heard over the sound of underground waterfalls. It might take until 10 p.m. Friday to remove the men from where they were found in the cave, about 500 feet inside, Cave said. They were at the bottom of the third of three major vertical drops in the cave, Cave said. It's like rock climbing, but rock climbing in the dark with water falling over you. The vertical drops are basically waterfalls. Rangers and rescue workers began searching Rainbow Cave, one of four with entrances in the area, after finding a backpack and rope belonging to the men. A volunteer rescue squad from Knoxville x-excid://9FC1/jmp:http://wtop.com/?nid=733amp;inform_keyword=Knoxvill e http://wtop.com/?nid=733amp;inform_keyword=Knoxville , was helping in the rescue. (This version CORRECTS the spelling of 'Owasso' Okla.)
[Texascavers] TSA Members meeting at Spring Convention!
Greetings Texas Cavers, This is a reminder that there will be a TSA meeting at the convention. Like last year; the meeting will be convened after the last programs are complete and just before dinner. Please see the schedule of meetings being circulated for the exact time. If you are interested in Texas Caving; I would urge you to attend! As I have said many times...the TSA is a member driven organization. That means we can do ANYTHING our members decide to support(well as long as its legal..and it fits our mission). So come out and help make caving better for all Texas Cavers. If you have agenda items for the TSA business meeting; please forward them to me. I look forward to seeing each of you at the Spring Convention! John Brooks - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Fwd: Deep Down Underground event, Austin, TX
Is anyone in Austin available to help this group out? John Brooks Note: forwarded message attached. ---BeginMessage--- Hello, We are having a special event to educate Austin schoolchildren in K-3rd grades about caves in central Texas. It will take place at the Sheffield Education Center/Splash! exhibit, located at Barton Springs Pool in Austin, on March 27. We are looking for volunteers to help out with activities, and I was hoping to get some cavers from the Texas Speleological Society to share their enthusiasm and expertise with these kids. If you think your members would be interested in volunteering, please forward this email or let me know how to best go about notifying them. Here is a short description of the event: Deep Down Underground is an event to educate children about the geology, ecology, and exploration of the unique limestone cave environments of central Texas. Kids learn how to map caves, tie knots that cavers use, and navigate through a cave obstacle course. They will learn about the animals that live in caves, and a live bat will be available for viewing. Lots of hands-on, interactive activities will be available. This is a free event being held on a school day for visiting classrooms of 1st, 2nd and 3rd graders. We will need volunteers to staff activity booths and to escort school groups through the activities. Volunteers are welcome to work 9am-1pm, 12pm-4pm, or 9am-4pm. If you have questions or if you would like to sign up, please contact Susannah Reilly at 478-3170 or susannah.rei...@ci.austin.tx.us . Thank you, Susannah Reilly Culture Arts Instructor Splash! Into the Edwards Aquifer Austin Nature Science Center http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/splash (512) 478-3170 phone (512) 477-4901 fax ---End Message--- - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] prints of Devil's Sinkhole painting
Yesstrangely you left out the format it IS available in.in a framed print hanging on your living room wall ! On Feb 8, 2008 10:10 AM, David wrote: I would like to see Jacqui's painting on a T-shirt. And embroidered on the back of my denim cave-patch jacket. And a quilt. And a stain-glass window. And a nylon flag to fly on the patio. And a post-card. And painted on the side of a cave-vendor van. On a mural of a wall in a Rocksprings restaurant. On a Paint-by-numbers kit. In a coloring book for caver kids. And on a refrigerator magnet. Did I leave out anything? David Locklear
RE: [Texascavers] [Caving in Star Trek]
Maybe the TSS should publish quot;The Caves of the Federation od Planetsquot;or perhaps the ICS should change it name to the Intergalactic Conference of Speleology. Travis could set up conference trips to lava tubes on Mars or the moon. Maybe NASA could be enlisted as a sponsor and provide transport. Don Arburn wrote: Star Trek: Enterprise the Breach 2003 Caving throughout most of this episode, including the use of words like spelothem! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] FW: Pseudo Archeology on the Discovery Channel
Hello All - We watched the Bone Detective program about Maya burial caves in Belize (Midnight Terror, Actun Tunichil Muknal and a shelter cave near Caves Branch) on the Discovery Channel and were appalled by the destruction of a stalagmite, the lack of respect for the caves and their contents and the absurd premise of the program. Unfortunately, there will be another program in the series. We received the following email from Jaime. David and Eleanor Friends and colleagues A few days ago the Discovery Channel aired a show entitled The Bone Detective. I don't know how many of you saw it but the show focused on two caves that we have been working on here in Belize. These are Midnight Terror and ATM caves. Let me simply say that this show was the worst piece of caca I have ever had to suffer through. The shameless editing of much of what we said and the way they cut and pasted our discussions and interpretations was appaling, disgusting and incredibly unprofessional. So much of what Gabe, I and Raffi said was distorted for the simple purpose of making it fit their incredulous story. All to achieve their goal of sensationalism. And when you see the show it appears that Gabe and I were only here to assit their cowboy archaeologist as he removed objects from one site to the other. Ahhh! I can assure you that these folks will never ever have another opportunity to film at any of our sites here in Belize. Neither will I ever consider to participate in any show by these people. I truyly hope that this will serve as a warning to all of you and that you be careful when agreeing to participate in any filming with the Discovery folks in the future. As for me, this has been a harsh learning lesson and in the future I will request to have a signed agreement with any film crew requiring that I be given some level of editorial rights before the release of any show. If they refuse then they can go film somewhere else. Below I attach some comments that Gabe sent me as well. Well, my plan is to hunt Robert Yuhas and tie him down over a fireant nest. Or, perhaps put him in a room with one of those crazy three-step snakes. Anyway, based on all the comments I've heard, as well as have read on their comments page on the website, at least poor scotty and the show are taking the blame, as they should. I was just so disappointed. I talked with robert endlessly about the show in the spring and he took what I suggested and just twisted it all out of shape. I suggested he show how we go about interpreting a new context (midnight terror) by showing the data there, and then comparing it to other similar contexts which are more indicative sacrifice (ATM) and a burial plot (Caves Branch). And somehow, from those noble beginnings, they get to that ridiculous conclusion! How sad. Thanks to all for your time and here's hoping that this unfortunate even may never be repeated again. Warm regards to all, Jaime Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003 0002548 -- End of Forwarded Message
RE: [Texascavers] Caving Show on Discovery Channel
But if the earth is only 8 to 10,000 years old...why is the age of speleothems important? Does dating them prove that the cave existed before creation? Geary Schindel wrote: Mark, Maybe one of the specialists in this area will respond with more detailed information but yes, speleothems can be dated by analyzing the ratios of radioactive elements. They do have growth rings but the ones you see with the naked eye do not equate to dates like tree rings – it is a lot more complicated than that. In the past, ice cores have been used to determine atmospheric gas composition and estimates about climate back to approximately 100,000 years. I understand that the speleothem dating techniques can take the dating back almost 400,000 years with surprisingly good resolution (20+ years?) and are now becoming the gold standard for age dating and climate studies with microcrystalline growth rings being used to estimate regional rainfall. It is also much complicated than I’ve described. Speleothems have the added advantage in that they occur almost anywhere there are caves so therefore, you can create a local data base of dates rather then depending upon ice cores which can only be obtained from high mountains or the Polar Regions . Dating of speleothems used to be a pretty arcane practice done by very few geologists/speleologists who were looking to answer specific questions such as whether speleothems continued to grow during ice ages which would imply that the area above the cave was ice free or to try and determine a relative minimum age for a cave passage. The techniques have become more refined and speleothems have now a hot field of study and have become a critical piece of data to understand global climate change. Generally, the speleothem is cut in half and rock specimens are removed along the axis of the speleothem and analyzed for their uranium thorium content through a process which involves a lot of complex chemistry using some fairly strong acids (needless to say, you can’t do this at home with your rock tumbler). Regarding your comment about whether speleothems should be removed for use in scientific interest. Well that depends – most scientists are very responsible about the removal of speleothems and would not recommend that prominent formations be removed and if a specimen needed to be collected, that it be done so to minimize the impacts to a cave. Removal should also only occur with permission of the owner. Cave formations are very nice to look at and the indiscriminate destruction of formations should certainly be discouraged. However, the removal of a few formations for scientific use is considered by many scientists to be acceptable. Note that cave sediments can also be used for relative age dating and should not needlessly be disturbed, not only does an undisturbed floor look nice but the sediments may provide some important scientific data. Formations have been removed from a number of caves in Texas including Devils Sinkhole. The UT Geosciences Department has one of the better labs in the country and has published their results in a number of scientific publications. Geary -Original Message- From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:27 PM To: Allan Cobb; Texascavers Mailing List Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Caving Show on Discovery Channel Did anyone happen to watch this show the other night? Were you as horrified as I was when the overly dramatic host and another scientist took a chisel to an ~ 3 foot by 4 inch stalagmite in order to break it free in order to count the rings? Apparently, they were wanting to calculate the rate of annual water flow in order to match it up to the apparent demise of the below mentioned headless skeleton. Their theory was that the hapless victim was sacrificed at about the same time as a drought was occurring and, by doing so, the gods would be pleased with the sacrifice and send rain. How you could correlate the age of the stalag with the victim's death is beyond me. Is this appropriate behavior? I'm surprise no one else hear saw this or thought to comment on it. Y'all's thoughts? Mark A. From: Allan Cobb [mailto:a...@oztotl.com] Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:58 PM To: Texascavers Mailing List Subject: [Texascavers] Caving Show on Discovery Channel Monday night (January 21) at 8 PM is a new series called Bone Detectives. This episode is about a headless skeleton in a cave in Belize. The cave that the show centers around is called Midnight Terror and it was only discovered about a year ago. The show also did filming in several other caves in Belize.
[Texascavers] FW: tpwd tv
- Original Message - Subject: tpwd tv Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:26:36 From: Don Cash don.c...@tpwd.state.tx.us To: chair...@cavetexas.org John, I’ve produced a segment for the Texas Parks Wildlife television show on the LiDAR laser mapping project at the Devil’s Sinkhole State Natural Area. The show airs on the Texas PBS stations the week of February 10-17, 2008 , and repeats August 10-17, 2008 . The segment is titled “New Wave Cave”. I was hoping to get the word out to cavers and climbers about this show. Any chance you can help us get the info out. The show info is on the tv section of our web site www.tpwd.state.tx.us/tv I’ll be happy to drop you a preview copy of the show in the mail if you’ll send your mailing address. Any other groups I can promote this to? Thanks for you interest and help. New Wave Cave The Devil’s Sinkhole near Rocksprings is a cavernous wonder. Visitors to the sinkhole can only peer into the abyss from a platform near the edge. Thanks to a crew of geologists and photographers, a 3D virtual map of the cave is in the works, one that will give visitors a unique view of this geologic oddity. Don Cash Texas Parks Wildlife Television 4200 Smith School Road Austin , Texas 78744 512-389-4792 don.c...@tpwd.state.tx.us www.tpwd.state.tx.us/tv - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:
³I¹ve done some caving in Texas but was not much impressed by the caves. ³ I doubt there is a cave anywhere in the US or internationally that can rival BMC or Caverns of Sonora...except maybe the ³L² cave in New Mexicoand not many anywhere much better than Midnight Cave.
Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
The TSA does a lot for Texas Caving...but we apparently do not do a good job of bragging about all that we do... Here is one very real benefit that the TSA provides to ALL Texas Cavers whether they are members or not: The TSA is providing funding for improvements to the tower at Honey Creek Cave. All Cavers benefit from this. In addition; the TSA maintains a database of Texas Cavers for the TCR and the TSA. And we publish on an annual basis a Texas Cavers directory that is available to all Texas Cavers whether they are members or not. The TSA is a sponsor of the ICS in Kerrville in 2009. The TSA provides support for TCR registration. And the TSA is funding the acquisition of new directional signs used to direct cavers to caving events. The TSA maintains a website with a consolidated calendar of caving events of all Texas caving organizationsthat is available to all cavers. In addition the TSA website has information useful to new and experienced cavers...such as a liability release that can be used by anyone. The TSA provides organizational support for projects. I could go on as there are numerous other benefits that the TSA provides to all Texas Caverswhether they are members of the TSA or not. What else does the TSA do? Well, we can do whatever it is that our members decide to do and support. That is sometimes projects, it is publishing ³The Texas Caver² or an activities newsletter. We provide cave rescue wallet cards that could be a resource should it ever be needed. The TSA has held vertical training workshops that have been open to ALL Texas Cavers. And the TSA hosts an annual Spring Convention; where interested cavers can see presentations on what is happening with the various caving groups around the state. These presentations range from recent explorations around Texas and Mexico to other topics of concern to cavers such as efforts to protect regional aquifers and cave systems. As with everything else; membership in the TSA is not required to attend or participate in the convention. So...if membership in the TSA is not required for anything we do...why join? Because, by joining and participating, the TSA can do more to support Texas Cavers and Texas Caving.and by joining you get ³The Texas Caver²but the real benefit is knowing that your support for the TSA directly translates to supporting Texas Cavers. On 1/17/08 1:12 PM, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX);
Re: [Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting at Colorado Bend State Park Project, January 11-13th
9 AM On Saturday. Finish by 10.45 and go caving! On 1/9/08 3:29 PM, Terry Holsinger tr...@sprynet.com wrote: So what time will the TSA meeting be held and on Saturday or Sunday? Terry H. rafal kedzierski wrote: TSA Winter Meeting at Colorado Bend State Park project weekend is up on Come help locate, survey, and produce maps of all the caves on the 5400+ acre property. By last count, there are about 400 caves and karst features in the park, and no doubt many more that still have not been found. I - Rafal - will not be there - I have work and home stuff to take care of - but Butch Fralia, Keith Heuss, Jim Kennedy, and likely Mark Gee will be there - and Butch Fralia and Keith Heuss have agreed to run the project. Plenty of camping space at the caver's camp, which is uphill just to the right of the Colorado Bend SP entrance sign. TSA meeting will be held at conference center on the falls, which also has space to crash at. If needed directions and GPS data are at http://www.maverickgrotto.org/maps/cbsp.html. For questions, email Butch Fralia at cave...@charter.net or Keith Heuss at caverke...@yahoo.com. Rafal Kedzierski _ Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Science, Evolution and Creationism
³Right, back to microprocessors... at least we know when they started and where they came from. Stefan² WELL DuhWe all know microprocessors came from partially destroyed, high evolved Terminators, sent from the future, to kill Sarah Connors first born male child.
RE: [Texascavers] OT - the Chuck Stuehm Award
David Locklear The TSA does have an Awards committee and chair...when we can find someone willing to take this task onthe TSA has also resorted to the officers as a defacto awards committee. As with any volunteer organization; the TSA can and will do whatever our membership wants to do...and will support with their time and effort. We are a member driven organization. A fabulous example of how the TSA can work is the tower enhancement at Honey Creek Cave. Bill Steele and Kurt Menking had a fabulous idea. And they pitched it to the TSA. And the TSA along with the TCMA and TCR are providing funding for this effort. While Bill, Kurt and others are organizing the work project.This project is occuring in April . The Chuck Steuhm awards are TSA awards; but the nominations process and selection has typically resided with the grottoes. I would welcome anyone who would like to serve as an awards chair to coordinate an awards committee made of TSA members.I personally think it best if the officers of the TSA are not involved in the award selection process.But we, officers, are always willing to step in and do what needs to be done. With all the great ideas that you have, Mr. Locklear, I think you are an excellent candidate to serve in this position. And I appreciate that you are willing to take this task and run with it. And I will add a report from the Awards Committee to the agenda for the TSA Winter Meeting at CBSP.I would encourage anyone interested in serv ing on this committee to contact David. I am sure he can use your support.David, Thank you for stepping forward and supporting the TSA. We will see you at CBSP in mid january. John Brooks 2008 TSA Chairman David Locklear wrote: The new book 50 years, does list many of the Stuehm Award recipients.I saw at least 8 listed, and there may be more in the book somewhere ( It is a huge book ). I have always felt the Chuck Stuehm Award was a prestigious award, and a great way to encourage new cavers to keep up the good work. I also feel that it has been neglected. I know there was once a Texas Caver article on the subject, but maybe it is time for a new one.For example, the article could include photos of the past recipients, along with a very short bio on each.That is just a suggestion for someone looking for ideas on topics for the caver. Here in east Texas, we always have a hard time finding a new candidate. However, I would like nominate 2 new ones for 2007 or 8. And if it is possible to go way back further, I would like to nominate someone that may have been over looked from many years ago. Who in the TSA is officially responsible for granting the award and making sure that it gets to the recipient? Does the TSA have an Awards Chairperson? Is it an official award of the TSA? I propose that a PDF file be created of the Award Certificate and that it be placed on a secure part of the TSA web-site where any member can view it. I also propose that, a grotto president ( who is a TSA member ) has the authority to just print out the PDF file of the award certificate and give it out to whoever he wants to? Many good independent cavers were over-looked on this award, because there was nobody to nominate them. I can't think of a solution to that at the moment. I guess they could politely knudge somebody to nominate them? David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] OT - the Chuck Stuehm Award
David Locklear The TSA does have an Awards committee and chair...when we can find someone willing to take this task onthe TSA has also resorted to the officers as a defacto awards committee. As with any volunteer organization; the TSA can and will do whatever our membership wants to do...and will support with their time and effort. We are a member driven organization. A fabulous example of how the TSA can work is the tower enhancement at Honey Creek Cave. Bill Steele and Kurt Menking had a fabulous idea. And they pitched it to the TSA. And the TSA along with the TCMA and TCR are providing funding for this effort. While Bill, Kurt and others are organizing the work project.This project is occuring in April . The Chuck Steuhm awards are TSA awards; but the nominations process and selection has typically resided with the grottoes. I would welcome anyone who would like to serve as an awards chair to coordinate an awards committee made of TSA members.I personally think it best if the officers of the TSA are not involved in the award selection process.But we, officers, are always willing to step in and do what needs to be done. With all the great ideas that you have, Mr. Locklear, I think you are an excellent candidate to serve in this position. And I appreciate that you are willing to take this task and run with it. And I will add a report from the Awards Committee to the agenda for the TSA Winter Meeting at CBSP.I would encourage anyone interested in serv ing on this committee to contact David. I am sure he can use your support.David, Thank you for stepping forward and supporting the TSA. We will see you at CBSP in mid january. John Brooks 2008 TSA Chairman David Locklear wrote: The new book 50 years, does list many of the Stuehm Award recipients.I saw at least 8 listed, and there may be more in the book somewhere ( It is a huge book ). I have always felt the Chuck Stuehm Award was a prestigious award, and a great way to encourage new cavers to keep up the good work. I also feel that it has been neglected. I know there was once a Texas Caver article on the subject, but maybe it is time for a new one.For example, the article could include photos of the past recipients, along with a very short bio on each.That is just a suggestion for someone looking for ideas on topics for the caver. Here in east Texas, we always have a hard time finding a new candidate. However, I would like nominate 2 new ones for 2007 or 8. And if it is possible to go way back further, I would like to nominate someone that may have been over looked from many years ago. Who in the TSA is officially responsible for granting the award and making sure that it gets to the recipient? Does the TSA have an Awards Chairperson? Is it an official award of the TSA? I propose that a PDF file be created of the Award Certificate and that it be placed on a secure part of the TSA web-site where any member can view it. I also propose that, a grotto president ( who is a TSA member ) has the authority to just print out the PDF file of the award certificate and give it out to whoever he wants to? Many good independent cavers were over-looked on this award, because there was nobody to nominate them. I can't think of a solution to that at the moment. I guess they could politely knudge somebody to nominate them? David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] OT - the Chuck Stuehm Award
David Locklear The TSA does have an Awards committee and chair...when we can find someone willing to take this task onthe TSA has also resorted to the officers as a defacto awards committee. As with any volunteer organization; the TSA can and will do whatever our membership wants to do...and will support with their time and effort. We are a member driven organization. A fabulous example of how the TSA can work is the tower enhancement at Honey Creek Cave. Bill Steele and Kurt Menking had a fabulous idea. And they pitched it to the TSA. And the TSA along with the TCMA and TCR are providing funding for this effort. While Bill, Kurt and others are organizing the work project.This project is occuring in April . The Chuck Steuhm awards are TSA awards; but the nominations process and selection has typically resided with the grottoes. I would welcome anyone who would like to serve as an awards chair to coordinate an awards committee made of TSA members.I personally think it best if the officers of the TSA are not involved in the award selection process.But we, officers, are always willing to step in and do what needs to be done. With all the great ideas that you have, Mr. Locklear, I think you are an excellent candidate to serve in this position. And I appreciate that you are willing to take this task and run with it. And I will add a report from the Awards Committee to the agenda for the TSA Winter Meeting at CBSP.I would encourage anyone interested in serv ing on this committee to contact David. I am sure he can use your support.David, Thank you for stepping forward and supporting the TSA. We will see you at CBSP in mid january. John Brooks 2008 TSA Chairman David Locklear wrote: The new book 50 years, does list many of the Stuehm Award recipients.I saw at least 8 listed, and there may be more in the book somewhere ( It is a huge book ). I have always felt the Chuck Stuehm Award was a prestigious award, and a great way to encourage new cavers to keep up the good work. I also feel that it has been neglected. I know there was once a Texas Caver article on the subject, but maybe it is time for a new one.For example, the article could include photos of the past recipients, along with a very short bio on each.That is just a suggestion for someone looking for ideas on topics for the caver. Here in east Texas, we always have a hard time finding a new candidate. However, I would like nominate 2 new ones for 2007 or 8. And if it is possible to go way back further, I would like to nominate someone that may have been over looked from many years ago. Who in the TSA is officially responsible for granting the award and making sure that it gets to the recipient? Does the TSA have an Awards Chairperson? Is it an official award of the TSA? I propose that a PDF file be created of the Award Certificate and that it be placed on a secure part of the TSA web-site where any member can view it. I also propose that, a grotto president ( who is a TSA member ) has the authority to just print out the PDF file of the award certificate and give it out to whoever he wants to? Many good independent cavers were over-looked on this award, because there was nobody to nominate them. I can't think of a solution to that at the moment. I guess they could politely knudge somebody to nominate them? David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] OT - Coal Ash Is More Radioactive than Nuclear Waste
Radioactive concrete block? That#39;s absurd...I can assure you that if there was even a small level of radioactivity or anything harmful in these blocks...building codes would ban them and or our liability insurance would prohibit the use...concrete block is safe...although I would think twice about building a concrete block home or school in a high humidity area Fritz Holt wrote: Nico, I would assume that like so many things, the radioactive hazard of these concrete blocks is blown way out of proportion. But I would like to know from an expert on the matter so that I can be better informed. While many people don’t live in the same home for 23 years it is possible that effects from exposure may take a much longer period and therefore not considered a hazard to human health. There is a small subdivision in Jacinto City , Texas , surrounded by Houston on the east side where most of the small homes were built of concrete block in the 1940’S OR 50’S. From a RESIDENTIAL INSURANCE standpoint, concrete block homes and those with solid masonry exterior walls (those with no wood framing in the walls) take a lower insurance rate (premium) than the brick veneer homes in which many of us live. I haven’t insured one of these in the last twenty-five years. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL. Fritz From: Nico Escamilla [mailto:pitboun...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:30 AM To: Fritz Holt Cc: Don Cooper; Simon Newton; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OT - Coal Ash Is More Radioactive than Nuclear Waste I have lived in a cinder/concrete block house my whole life (23 years) and I am healthy as can be. a little overweight but thats another story. Nico On Dec 19, 2007 9:31 AM, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Don, I know a little bit about a lot of things but I don't know enough about – cinder blocks. (Lyrics from a very old song). As I understand it, a cinderblock is one of the building materials of choice on many commercial buildings such as warehouses. I generally refer to them as concrete blocks and they have about three hollow spaces. Are these cinderblocks that contain Radioactive material? Is there a danger in long term exposure inside buildings constructed of this material? If so, why is it allowed to be used so extensively? Fritz From: Don Cooper [mailto: wavyca...@gmail.com ] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:34 PM To: Simon Newton Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OT - Coal Ash Is More Radioactive than Nuclear Waste That is correct! As well - consider that radioactive CARBON can create radioactive Carbon Dioxide. Radioactivity released by coal powered plants IS indeed significantly greater than any well-mannered nuclear power plant. This was something taught to me by the 'critical mass' nerds (nuclear engineers) that I sometimes hung out with when I was going to La. Tech. Another thing you might want to consider is how radioactive cinderblock is. I dont know exactly what the numbers are, but its enough to test a Geiger counter! -WaV On Dec 18, 2007 10:54 PM, Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com wrote: Some food for thought... From the article: Among the surprising conclusions: the waste produced by coal plants is actually more radioactive than that generated by their nuclear counterparts. In fact, fly ash—a by-product from burning coal for power—contains up to 100 times more radiation than nuclear waste. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-wastesc=WR_20071218 - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] OT - future of automobiles
Those Guatemala caves must be open pits? Or caves without roofs. I have seen P51s fly over while caving in Carta Valley before. Actually, we were looking for caves. Because if we were, tevhnically caving, unless the rock was transperant, we wouldn,t have seen them.of course, with the improvements in LED Media Wall technology; it would be possible to line the ceiling of a cave with an LED mesh...and then place cameras on the surface to capture what flys over...or capture images, so you know if its raining or when it gets dark outside. You could even add a satellite dish so you could catch the latest Desparate Housewives episode or watch the tu longhorns play. Of coursethese images are very grainy...so it would need to be a large room. Which leads one to wonder why you couldn,t just line all the walls, floor and ceilings with LEDs? Then you could play one of those Lechugilla 360 dvds and it would be almost like the real thing. But if you wanted to see the planes fly over in this scenario...you might have to add it in with photoshop or animate it. Allan B. Cobb wrote: Strictly an opinion but as the DC3 is obsolete, 3% ain’t bad. My first commercial flight was on a DC3 from Bryan/College Station to Houston while attending Allen Academy in about 1950. I rode on a DC-3 on a flight between Cozumel and Cancun back in 1983. The starboard engine was smoking really badly but we made it OK. There is still one sitting at the airport in Guatemala City. It has moved around over the years but I don't know if they still fly it. The Guatemalan air force has some P-51 Mustangs that it still flies. I see them when I go to Guatemala for caving. (Just to make this caving related.) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] OT - future of automobiles
The LED mesh we are using to cover the outside of a stadium costs around 400 to 500 usd per sf. Then you need all the technology infrastucture to run it...plus programs and content...but, yes, one could create a virtual cave at home. But before you make the leap...I would wait a couple of years..as this technology is likely to make some big leaps in the next few years. Interestingly...this whole idea of massive media came about from the film quot;bladerunnerquot;. Corky wrote: Or even better for us that are unable to cave right now, we could line our homes with LED's and project images of cave interiors. I could take a cave trip and never leave the farm! All I would need is a can of Guano Air Freshener to complete the illusion. Corky John P Brooks wrote: Those Guatemala caves must be open pits? Or caves without roofs. I have seen P51s fly over while caving in Carta Valley before. Actually, we were looking for caves. Because if we were, tevhnically caving, unless the rock was transperant, we wouldn,t have seen them.of course, with the improvements in LED Media Wall technology; it would be possible to line the ceiling of a cave with an LED mesh...and then place cameras on the surface to capture what flys over...or capture images, so you know if its raining or when it gets dark outside. You could even add a satellite dish so you could catch the latest Desparate Housewives episode or watch the tu longhorns play. Of coursethese images are very grainy...so it would need to be a large room. Which leads one to wonder why you couldn,t just line all the walls, floor and ceilings with LEDs? Then you could play one of those Lechugilla 360 dvds and it would be almost like the real thing. But if you wanted to see the planes fly over in this scenario...you might have to add it in with photoshop or animate it. Allan B. Cobb wrote: Strictly an opinion but as the DC3 is obsolete, 3% ain’t bad. My first commercial flight was on a DC3 from Bryan/College Station to Houston while attending Allen Academy in about 1950. I rode on a DC-3 on a flight between Cozumel and Cancun back in 1983. The starboard engine was smoking really badly but we made it OK. There is still one sitting at the airport in Guatemala City. It has moved around over the years but I don't know if they still fly it. The Guatemalan air force has some P-51 Mustangs that it still flies. I see them when I go to Guatemala for caving. (Just to make this caving related.) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Flying suits video
This is probably a very good test for the theory of evolution also. On 12/10/07 3:20 PM, CaverArch cavera...@aol.com wrote: There is a New York Times cover article today on the folks experimenting with flying suits (as on the viral video of late) that discusses their ultimate objective: to dispense with the parachute, and yet survive. Several potential methods are discussed, none of which are very sane at this early stage. Roger Moore GHG See AOL's top rated recipes http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304 and easy ways to stay in shape http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop000303 for winter.
RE: [Texascavers] theTerlingua Mine
Its this oneeven has some very cool descriptions of the breccia pipes out near the Solitario. Has location maps and maps of the mines. 1959 PP 312 Geology and quicksilver deposits of the Terlingua district, Texas Yates, R. G.; Thompson, G. A. Ted Samsel tbsam...@infionline.net wrote: I did a quick search at USGS pubs and terlingua brings up seven pub titles.. Ted -Original Message- From: John P Brooks Sent: Dec 4, 2007 3:36 PM To: gi...@worldnet.att.net Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] theTerlingua Mine Interesting stories! I might add, there is a very nice USGS publication on the mines of the Terlingua area. It has descriptions of many of the old minesand really cool maps that look like cave maps. I think it is out of print...but if you ever see it for sale at a second hand book seller..pick it up. A few of the mines even intersect naturally occuring cavities... Gill Ediger wrote: At 01:32 PM 12/2/2007, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: OK - you have twisted my arm. But it is much better told around a campfire in Big Bend and after several beers. Tracy Blashill and I went into that mine back in the early '80s. Tracy was a caver from around Temple or such, had moved to San Antonio and went on several trips to Mexico in my truck--El Abra, Brinco, etc--in the mid to late '70s. So we were at least moderate buddies. Both he and I, quite independently, also took up whitewater rafting in the '80s. As chance would have it we both also became associated with a Terlingua boating company called Far-Flung Adventures. They had originally had space in the main Terlingua mine office building, but later built their own office/warehouse a block or so farther west and a couple of literal stone throws from the shaft entrance. (FFA sold out a few years and it is my understanding that their old building was turned into a cafe. I've been told by several folks who've eaten there that a 14-foot wooden oar that once belonged to me is mounted on the wall of the cafe, complete with my stenciled name and Mockingburd address displayed to the public.) Fate brought Tracy and I together at the FFA facility one fair West Texas day and he told me of the walk-in/crawl-in entrance to a mine just a few feet behind the building. After working up our nerve, we grabbed cave packs and carbides (and maybe a short rope??) and headed in. As I recall we had entered one of the emergency exit ramps so we followed a walkable, narrow passage down to what was probably the first level. There were some more-or-less straight passages with sorta right-angle passages off of them. It wasn't extensive but did have a passage that broke out into the shaft in question. Then there was a long void that had obviously been dug which followed a sloping surface (70 degrees or so, not climbable) downward for a hundred feet or more. We found passages that worked their way around it to another level. On this level we also discovered a passage that broke out into the main shaft. We then found passage down to a third level and another opening into the elevator shaft--not as far as half-way down, but a couple of hundred feet--probably. At that point we ran out of time or enthusiasm or, more likely, any passage extensions. I seem to recall that we thought these to be some isolated secondary passages (they were never large) and that more extensive parts of the mine existed but were not connected to the ones we were in. Undoubtedly they would all be connected into the main shaft. It is rumored to be 600 feet deep--or was before people started throwing rocks and railroad ties and wooly goats down it. I had heard a rumor at an earlier date (in the early '70s) that a caver or cavers had rappelled into it, but don't have any further info on that. The caveat that was included in the rumor was the unstable pit walls which produced lots of rock falls when the rope brushed them. The word is that most or all of the known entrances to old mines in the state were sealed, under the auspices of some state or federal program, either permanently (with concrete slabs or walls or dynamite or bulldozers) or with locked gates (to allow access in case of some emergency or scientific study) and sufficient legal penalties should the gates be violated. Too bad. It was kinda neat having 5000 drunks wandering about during the chili cook-offs with 600 foot pits punctuating the countryside. Now, through the efforts of dedicated do-gooders to protect the public from their own ignorance, we no longer have access to a lot of fun things. Who shall protect us from the ignorance of the do-gooders? --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h
RE: [Texascavers] theTerlingua Mine
Interesting stories! I might add, there is a very nice USGS publication on the mines of the Terlingua area. It has descriptions of many of the old minesand really cool maps that look like cave maps. I think it is out of print...but if you ever see it for sale at a second hand book seller..pick it up. A few of the mines even intersect naturally occuring cavities... Gill Ediger wrote: At 01:32 PM 12/2/2007, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: OK - you have twisted my arm. But it is much better told around a campfire in Big Bend and after several beers. Tracy Blashill and I went into that mine back in the early '80s. Tracy was a caver from around Temple or such, had moved to San Antonio and went on several trips to Mexico in my truck--El Abra, Brinco, etc--in the mid to late '70s. So we were at least moderate buddies. Both he and I, quite independently, also took up whitewater rafting in the '80s. As chance would have it we both also became associated with a Terlingua boating company called Far-Flung Adventures. They had originally had space in the main Terlingua mine office building, but later built their own office/warehouse a block or so farther west and a couple of literal stone throws from the shaft entrance. (FFA sold out a few years and it is my understanding that their old building was turned into a cafe. I've been told by several folks who've eaten there that a 14-foot wooden oar that once belonged to me is mounted on the wall of the cafe, complete with my stenciled name and Mockingburd address displayed to the public.) Fate brought Tracy and I together at the FFA facility one fair West Texas day and he told me of the walk-in/crawl-in entrance to a mine just a few feet behind the building. After working up our nerve, we grabbed cave packs and carbides (and maybe a short rope??) and headed in. As I recall we had entered one of the emergency exit ramps so we followed a walkable, narrow passage down to what was probably the first level. There were some more-or-less straight passages with sorta right-angle passages off of them. It wasn't extensive but did have a passage that broke out into the shaft in question. Then there was a long void that had obviously been dug which followed a sloping surface (70 degrees or so, not climbable) downward for a hundred feet or more. We found passages that worked their way around it to another level. On this level we also discovered a passage that broke out into the main shaft. We then found passage down to a third level and another opening into the elevator shaft--not as far as half-way down, but a couple of hundred feet--probably. At that point we ran out of time or enthusiasm or, more likely, any passage extensions. I seem to recall that we thought these to be some isolated secondary passages (they were never large) and that more extensive parts of the mine existed but were not connected to the ones we were in. Undoubtedly they would all be connected into the main shaft. It is rumored to be 600 feet deep--or was before people started throwing rocks and railroad ties and wooly goats down it. I had heard a rumor at an earlier date (in the early '70s) that a caver or cavers had rappelled into it, but don't have any further info on that. The caveat that was included in the rumor was the unstable pit walls which produced lots of rock falls when the rope brushed them. The word is that most or all of the known entrances to old mines in the state were sealed, under the auspices of some state or federal program, either permanently (with concrete slabs or walls or dynamite or bulldozers) or with locked gates (to allow access in case of some emergency or scientific study) and sufficient legal penalties should the gates be violated. Too bad. It was kinda neat having 5000 drunks wandering about during the chili cook-offs with 600 foot pits punctuating the countryside. Now, through the efforts of dedicated do-gooders to protect the public from their own ignorance, we no longer have access to a lot of fun things. Who shall protect us from the ignorance of the do-gooders? --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] First Annual Conference of Creation Geologists
I was wondering if anyone else saw the article on the first annual gathering of Creation Geologists in last weeks New York Times Magazine? Great reading. An interesting and dramatic account of the first conference of creation geologists as they struggle through the perplexing geologic questions of the daysuch as how did the Grand Canyon form?, how did fossils get layered so consistently? ( It had to do with thier distance from the sea shore when Noahs flood hit) and my favorite topic; how big was Noahs Ark?. Particularly poignant was an account of the geologists on a field trip picking up fossils and pocketing them in a state park ( what about thou shall not steal? )and the young son of one of the leaders of the group asked how did all these fossils get here?to which his dad answered the flood brought them here. Someone should tell that kid that parents always lie; Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the tooth Fairy, and now a big world encompassing flood that leave deposits of fossils in an Ohio State Park. Amazing. God help us all.
Re: [Texascavers] the geology conference
David Locklear dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: Why did our ancient ancestors do things in caves that we have no record of? Probably for the same reason that there isn't a record of some of the things that we have done in caves.
Re: [Texascavers] OT Albert Texas sold
I don't think that included the historic school housewhere LBJ once attended school. qui...@clearwire.net wrote: I had this in an email from someone today. I think it was posted here earllier. Quinta Posted Nov 25th 2007 3:02PM by Rigel Gregg Filed under: Auctions You really can get everything on eBay, even your own Unpopulated 1 House Texas Town. Gee, I've always wanted one of those. Albert is not the first town to get sold on eBay, but it's the latest. Just north of San Antonio, Texas, it consists of 13 acres that houses a tavern, a dance hall, a tractor shed, a 3 bedroom house, and a couple peach and pecan orchards. There's no post office and no permanent residents, but it sold for $3.8 million dollars to a bidder from Italy -- which was well over the reserve price which was set at only $2.5 million. Do you suppose the winner bought it as some kind of over-the-top Christmas gift for somebody? That would be so fun!
[Texascavers] Cult in cave siege
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7098671.stm Russia cult members in cave siege Scene of the doomsday cult stand-off in southern Russia Orthodox monks have been trying to reach the cave Police and clergy in southern Russia are trying to negotiate with members of a doomsday cult barricaded inside a cave and threatening to blow it up. The group calls itself the True Russian Orthodox Church. Members are waiting for the end of the world, which they are expecting to happen next May. They say they have enough food and water to last out the winter, as well as large quantities of petrol. The cult leader did not join them, and has been arrested by police. Russian television showed pictures of black-robed Orthodox monks scaling down into a snow-covered gully in a forest in the Penza region, about 650km (400 miles) south-east of Moscow. Pyotr Kuznetsov Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov is undergoing psychiatric examination They are hoping to make contact with the 30 cult members believed to have sealed themselves in the cave . Those inside are believed to include four small children. Cult members say they have hundreds of canisters of petrol and threatening to ignite them if the authorities try to force them out. The group was founded by a former engineer, Pyotr Kuznetsov, who had fallen out with the Russian Orthodox Church. He is thought to have ordered his followers into the cave but did not join them. He is now in custody and is undergoing psychiatric examinations. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Photoshop
I agree...using photoshop is neither good or bad. It is just another tool for creating images. As for the extraordinary cave photos that prompted this discussion; I thought they were stunning. They were executed with a sound understanding of composition, color and most important; art was present. I thought there was a painterly quality to them that is seldom seen in more pure traditional cave photography. The use of light and luminous color reminded me of many of the paintings of the Rennaisance. In my humble opinion, I say bravo. Well done. Thanks to Oztotl...someone is finally pushing the edges of cave photography! jerryat...@aol.com wrote: I believe any photo can usually be improved with a bit of touch up; whether you did it in the dark room in the olden days, or in PhotoShop at present is irrelevant. You are still working with a single exposure in which the photons that were captured, document an instant in time that was selected and engineered by the photographer - for better or worse. It's takes experience and talent to select the appropriate lighting, camera angle, exposure, and composition for that single photo. Only so much can be added or deleted in subsequent digital manipulations. The digital photos that give me pause are the composites, where several exposures are combined and edited into a final version. To be fair, a lot of talent is required to set up and engineer the shots; and to digitally merge them into a beautiful photo. But something unnatural has been added I think. You'll never see those scenes in the cave, however magnificent they are. To a purist, they are unfaithful representations of the underground, and pass into the realm of pure art. This is neither bad nor good, but certainly different then traditional photography. Jerry. In a message dated 11/14/2007 9:45:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, cvreel...@austin.rr.com writes: use Photoshop to some degree on all my cave shots. You can brighten underexposed areas bring out detail, you can darken overexposed areas, generally improve the quality of the final image with a little work. It's just the fake over-saturation of colors that weren't that bright in the actual setting that gets to me a bit. If you underexposed by an f-stop, by all means, lighten the shot up a bit, if it makes it presentable -- but show the cave as it really is. I do this with my scanned slides as well as shots from the new digital (Yes, I highly recommend the Nikons) so the real film vs. digital debate is kind of moot. The best thing about digital in the preview screen. It sure is nice to be able to look at the image and say Okay, I'm going to open 'er up an f-stop, and point that flash you're holding about 5 degrees more to the left, and hold it up higher. Ok, THAT's a keeper. (having a memory card that'll hold 275 RAW files is nice, too) CV - See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
Re: [Texascavers] cave mapping from the surface ?
That doesn't seem like much fun. Wouldn't that take all the mystery and excitement out of cave exploration? I think we should protest this intrusion on our domain. David Locklear dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: There was something in the news this week about the launching of a big research vessel that would map the underground layers of the earth as it traveled around the ocean. I barely caught a glimpse of the news story, but it indicated they could map deep voids in the earth. If this is true, do geologist have a similar device to map caves from a surface driven vehicle? Or is the technology old news? Or did I miss something? David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] speleo-kayaking
You can cave canoe in barton creek cave in belize. Its a quite popular tourist attraction...a few tousand feet in...the river is blocked by a collapse...and you start quot;cavingquot; at that point. David Locklear wrote: That photo in the previous post shows a scenic cave. I would love to go to Chiapas someday. Has anyone ever kayaked thru the 2 big river caves near Taxco:Chonta and San Jeronimo. I seem to recall someone floating them in inner tubes. I haven't been thru San Jeronimo and have only visited Chonta from the skylight to the resurgance. That was one of the funnest caving trips I ever went on. There were many Texas cavers there that day and there is a video of the trip. I have never seen the video. I heard rumors that it was shown at a UT Grotto meeting about 10 years ago? I have been rafting in a cave near a village called Comalapa, just south of Zongolica in Veracruz. That was fun, but it was not a thru trip nor were there any rapids in the cave, but plenty downstream. I don't seem to recall ever going canoeing in a cave.I missed a chance at the recent Indiana NSS Convention. But I do remember seeing a Harry Walker slide show ( from the 70's ), where they canoed the Rio Tamuin thru the Sierra Madres and they briefly passed under a limestone bridge that covered the river just east of Ciudad Valles, I think? One of the fun things to do in river caves is body-surfing ( if that is the right terminology ). That is were you just ride the rapids in the cave with no inner tube. Of course, you have to have already checked downstream to confirm it is safe. I have been body-surfing in a river cave by accident and that wasn't much fun, especially when you are underwater and can't seem to find the surface. David Locklear ( This e-mail was sent from my new job. Can an IT department monitor G-mail? ) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
