date:20050109







Charles Perry Locke wrote:

  

   I'll bet you are surprised that I responded to this email :-). Kevin
is much more qualified than I to answer your question, but I thought
that I would just recall some rather detailed posts I made some 
months, maybe a year, back. Many of our current members have probably
joined since those posts. The short answer
  

Hi, DaveH.


DAVEH:   How does your answer pertain to my below question, Perry???

  
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
  
  
  It does not matter how Christian is defined at this point in the
conversation..
DAVEH:  Sure it does, Perry.  I asked the question to somebody else,
and you jumped into the middle of the discussion to change the nature
of the discussion.  Another respondent answered the question, but I
have yet to hear your or Kevin's definition for Christian.  It
seems you just want to denigrate my religionis that correct?  I
also suppose that means that you will not answer my question in order
that we can carry on an intelligent exchange regarding the definition
of Christianis that also correct?
.what matters is that before one can become a Christian,
one must know the Christ and God of the Bible,
DAVEH:  From what other's have previously said on TT, Perry...I've
been led to understand that Rom 2 has made that not quite necessary. 
Am I in error on that?
 not the false christ or god of Morminism.
  
  
  I see in Kay's response the naïveté of not knowing Mormon beliefs.
Kay is basically right in her statement that those who follow Christ
are Christians...she just does not realize that the jesus Smithism
teaches is not the Jesus described in the Bible,
DAVEH:  OK...Does that mean that those who believe the Bible (Rom
2) does not allow for salvation of those who do not have the
chance to learn of Jesus while in this life?  That was my previous
assumption, but some (if I remember correctly, it was either you or
Kevin or maybe another TTer) who told me Rom 2 covered those who did
not have a chance to hear the gospel (let alone the name of Jesus)
while in mortality.  So now I'm not sure what the prevailing Protestant
thought on this isWould some other TTers care to weigh in on this,
please?
 and the god Smithism teaches is not the same God
described in the Bible. Once she comes to a knowledge of that, she will
certainly see that the LDS worship a false god and false christ, and
therefore cannot be Christians.
  

DAVEH:  As you know Perry, I'm sorry you feel this way..and
respectfully disagree with you on that.   
:-( 

  We all also must come to understand that two dictionaries are needed
to interpret between LDS word usage and Christian word usage.
DAVEH:  I've always tried to make that clear when chatting with TTers. 
That's why I've asked Kevin and you to define what you mean by Christian. 
As of yet, neither of you have honored us with your perspective.  Do
you want to have a conversation, Perryor, do you just want to trash
my faith?
 LDS have redefined words with traditional Christian
denotations to mean something different in the LDS argot. Like Judy
points out with understanding of the  Godhead and the Trinity. You see,
to a Christian, the Trinity IS the Godhead. To a Mormon, the godhead
consists of two gods and a spirit;
DAVEH:   That's how I read the Bible to explain it.  I view the
T-Doctrine as influencing the Protestant perspective, which to me seems
in contrast to the Biblical view.
 a false jesus, a false god, and the spirit of the false
god.
DAVEH:  Thank you bringing up those concerns.  Do you want to discuss
whether or not you've accurately portrayed my beliefs, or do you just
want to pass judgment without further discussion, Perry?
 Same word, two different meanings. Many words are this
way, so all should be wary when a Mormon speaks.
  

DAVEH:  OK Perry.You've warned everybody (again).Now will you
please define Christian for us so that we can see how you want
to exclude Mormons from being eligible.

Perry
  
  
  
is that the LDS worship a different jesus
and different god than those decribed in the Bible. That excludes them
from being Christian.
  
  
Perry
  
  
  Kevin Deegan wrote:


Mormons are generally nice people SADLY
anyone that follows official Mormon Doctrine
  
could not possibly be a CHRISTIAN
  
  
  

DAVEH:  Not only do I respectfully disagree with you on that, Kevin,
but I am sad that you feel that way.    :-(


   However, perhaps you define Christian differently than I do.  How do
you define it so that it excludes LDS folks, Kevin?

  

  


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[TruthTalk] Courtesy of My Son, Ross


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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

John wrote:
> If Jesus was not the Son before the incarnation,
> the virgin birth was His rite of adoption

No, because Jesus did not lay aside his divinity in becoming man.  The 
virgin birth was a miracle of God begetting a son, something that had never 
been done before.  There was no adoption, but rather a begetting of a holy 
son.

All of us were adopted because we were born children of Satan, but he was 
born a child of God from the beginning.  Therefore we call him the only 
begotten son of God.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Temple Altar is necessary for Torah Observance?

David Miller wrote:
>> Are you saying that if I build my own altar
>> (kind of like Noah did) to observe the Torah
>> commandments that I would be in violation
>> of Torah? Can you tell me what passage I
>> would be in violation of?

Jeff wrote:
> David are you a Levite? If not you would be
> building a pagan altar.

Where does the Torah teach that only a Levite can build an altar?

David built an altar in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite while the 
tabernacle of Moses was still in Gibeon.  David was not a Levite, and God 
sent fire from heaven upon his altar indicating his favor with it. (1 Chron. 
21).  Are you sure that only Levite's can build an altar?

Also, consider how the Lord speaks of the altar that "thou shalt make" in 
the next passage.  Other passages give some specifics about how to make the 
altar of earthen stone, not hewn stone.

Deuteronomy 16:21-22
(21) Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of 
the LORD thy God, WHICH THOU SHALT MAKE THEE.
(22) Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God 
hateth.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

p.s.  The reason Jews do not offer sacrifice outside a Jerusalem Temple is 
because of Deut. 12:13-14, but for the Christian, where has the Lord 
determined to place his name? 

--
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how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 7:53:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


John wrote  > when, exactly, was the prodigal saved?   When he came to himself?   When he turned and started the trek home?   When he saw his father?   When he came to the door of the house?   When he entered therein or when or accepted and particiated in the meal?   I say  --   in the pit, with the swine, covered with mud,  coming to himself.  

 
I say he was the father's son throughout. The fact that the father was always looking for his son's return ought to tell us that the son was accepted and loved and considered a son throughout. Repentance brought the son to his senses; it did not make him a son. Repentance brings us to our senses; it does not make us sons or daughters of God. Adopted in Christ, we are already His children.
  
Bill
  


Yes, a son always.   But in need of a turning around, correct?   If he had not turned what would have been the implications?   It seems to me that the prodigal son was separated from his father because of his decision to reject the father's partnership and live for himself.   Destruction was his only destiny.  

Agree?

John Boy

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me





DAVEH:  My latest response is in BLUE.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:23:38 PM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  

  
So be it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother (
in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is so?    The
only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood"
is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no longer a Mormon

DAVEH:   ???   Not sure why you would deny me Mormonism while
maintaining Protestantism, JD.  Is that not a double standard?  It
would be as you are understanding my post  --   but that is not what I
am saying.   I think my use of the word "effectively" has caused some
confusion.   My point is that one cannot make an effective argument.  
The only rebuttal to your inclusion would be an effective argument that
allows for the differing traditions of all except you  --   not
possible as far as i am concerned.  
  
  
DAVEH:   Ahhh.thanx for clearing that up
for me, JD.

  
but
allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay as a Messianic and
Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian
Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us "protestants,"

DAVEH:  Seems like I already didat least in one aspect..that
without Jesus, there would be no salvation.   Absolutely  --  sorry
the confusion.  
  
  
DAVEH:  I suspect there are other areas I may
agree as well.  But for the sake of dividing folks (and I admit to
doing it too), it is more interesting/entertaining to point out the
differences.

  

nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.

DAVEH:   Heyno need to draw hasty conclusions, JD!    :-D Read
on  ;-)
 
Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do not know her
denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   But the fact embraced
in the above "confession" binds us together in a way that cannot be
destroyed. This includes you.  

  
  
DAVEH:  You won't win any TT popularity trophies
with comments like that, JD.   
;-) 

  


DAVEH:   Perhaps.But I suspect you are making a lot of TTers rather
uncomfortable right now, JD.  Very few TTers are going to feel good
about getting chummy with a Mormon boy.Perhaps.  
Why
so      because we are only passively involved in this
reconciliation that names Christ as the Author and Finisher.   Joseph
Smith is not that  --   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin,
Luther and the like.  
  
JD
  


  
  
  
  
  
John 

-- 
~~~
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Re: [TruthTalk] Brotherhood

In a message dated 1/9/2005 7:53:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


JS: Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   
 
jt: I'm a follower of Christ John. I don't promote any denomination.
  
BillyT goes to a Baptist Church (Conservative Baptist), but Bill likes to think of himself as a free-agent. I don't mind the fact that there are myriad denominations. I've learned from them all -- some good, some bad. I think it is much better to be a participating member in a local church than it is to think you've got a direct line with God and don't need fellowship. That fellowship teaches us a whole lot about ourselves and how to love our neighbors through the long haul -- you know, when disagreements arise and such.
  
Bill
  
PS Hey Judy, if you don't mind me asking, what church do you attend? Are you a member of a local congregation? I seem to remember you saying something about this before. I could look it up if you like.



Yes but I hope we all understand the point I was trying to make.   :-)

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 7:53:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


You forgot your guyBenny Hinn...right???
  
:)
  


Yes -  I say reluctantly.  

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:23:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



So be it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no longer a Mormon
DAVEH:   ???   Not sure why you would deny me Mormonism while maintaining Protestantism, JD.  Is that not a double standard?  It would be as you are understanding my post  --   but that is not what I am saying.   I think my use of the word "effectively" has caused some confusion.   My point is that one cannot make an effective argument.   The only rebuttal to your inclusion would be an effective argument that allows for the differing traditions of all except you  --   not possible as far as i am concerned.  
but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us "protestants,"
DAVEH:  Seems like I already didat least in one aspect..that without Jesus, there would be no salvation.   Absolutely  --  sorry the confusion.  
 nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.
DAVEH:   Heyno need to draw hasty conclusions, JD!    :-D Read on  ;-)
  Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   But the fact embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way that cannot be destroyed. This includes you.  

DAVEH:   Perhaps.But I suspect you are making a lot of TTers rather uncomfortable right now, JD.  Very few TTers are going to feel good about getting chummy with a Mormon boy.Perhaps.  
Why so      because we are only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as the Author and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  --   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the like.  

JD






John

Re: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report

DAVEH:  FWIW...I am encouraged that only 9 of the 28 subscribers 
were lurking last quarter.  We have a higher participation ratio (2/3) 
than I would have thought.

Slade Henson wrote:
We have 28 subscribers.
-- slade

BTWHow many TTers are currently subscribed?
 

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~~~
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ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report

DAVEH:  Thanx Slade.  Hm.that ain't too many, eh!  I wonder if 
we should have a membership drive?!?!?!?! :-)

   BTW.I suppose we could invite the street preachers back   :-(
Slade Henson wrote:
We have 28 subscribers.
-- slade
BTWHow many TTers are currently subscribed?
 

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~~~
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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

John wrote:
> these Gentiles KNOW NOTHING. They have
> heard nothing (v v 13,14) that would cause
> them to even begin to compare with those
> of prominence.

The phrase, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the 
doers of the law shall be justified," does not mean that these who did the 
law had not heard it.  Rather, it simply means that justification before God 
is not based upon hearing but upon doing.  Back up and look at Rom. 2:6-11. 
God renders glory, honor, and peace to every man that WORKETH GOOD, to the 
Jew first, and also to the Gentile.

There are some who become righteous (work good) because of faith in Jesus 
Christ.  Although these do not have Torah, they keep Torah because Torah is 
written upon their hearts.  So by their new nature in Christ, they do the 
things contained in the law and are a law unto themselves.  They show the 
work of the law written upon their hearts.

John wrote:
> You are not the only who goes elsewhere
> in the letter or the biblical message to argue
> the point that this passage could not possibly
> mean what it says.

On the contrary, I believe that the passage means exactly what it says.  You 
simply seemed to read your own idea into it and caused a reading of it that 
contradicts what Paul teaches elsewhere in this same epistle.

John wrote:
> I see no contradiction, but more importantly,
> I see the critical importance for the existence
> of these Gentiles in this illustration.  Without
> them,  Paul's point is without the contrast
> necessary to the making of his point.

I think you mean that without the contrast necessary, he could not make YOUR 
point.  His point is something other than you think (IMO).

If you won't hear me, maybe you would reconsider upon hearing the highly 
respected Bishop of Durham, who seems to take the same position as me on 
this subject. :-)

Tom Wright considers several viewpoints of Romans 2, including yours, and he 
says that your viewpoint "... falls foul of Paul's emphasis on the 
universality of human sin, in the overarching theme stated in 1:18 and 
concluded in 3:20.  ... here he [Paul] is hinting at a theme he will explore 
later in the letter, namely that the people in question are Christian 
Gentiles (vv. 14-15)."

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
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how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Temple Altar is necessary for Torah Observance?

Think red this go round:

> Jeff wrote:>> I think the better
translation would>> be more along the line of,>> Lev 23:42
"You shall dwell in booths seven>> days; all that are home-born in
Israel shall>> dwell in booths;" JPS version> > Yes,
that is a better translation. Thanks. So the command to observe
> Sukkoth is only meant for the home-born Israelite? Is that how
you read it? No.
Deu 16:14"Be joyful at your Feast-you, your sons and daughters, your
menservants and maidservants, and the Levites, the STRANGERS the fatherless and
the widows that live in your towns."
How do you read this
David?
> > Jeff wrote:>> David you still DO NOT UNDERSTAND
the sacrificial>> system of the Temple. There can be no sacrifices
without>> the Temple Altar. It's amazing, I know 6,7 and 8
year>> olds that understand this ...
I don't think its an ad hominem to speak the
truth. Christianity has rejected God's Covenant. But if the moderator chides me
for this so be it. David, your next remark was entirely uncalled for and just
shows me that once again you are attempting to pick an argument. Face it, your
tactics are antiquated and annoying, a large reason I tend not to reply to your
posts. I don't claim to know it all and I don't have to win every argument,
therefore if you continue with this method I will again ignore you and let you
claim your victory.
Jeff. I'm a little bit slow and a quart low sometimes. I
really > depend upon smart guys like you who take time to explain this
stuff to me. > I don't know where you find the patience to respond to
someone as stupid as > I am.> > My first problem in
understanding you is that there was no Temple when the > Torah was
written, so it seems really confusing to me why you would think > that
there needs to be a Temple Altar.> > Are you saying that if I
build my own altar (kind of like Noah did) to > observe the Torah
commandments that I would be in violation of Torah? YES Can > you tell me what passage I would be
in violation of?> David are you a Levite? If not you
would be building a pagan altar. Secondly, God, Himself, tells us how we are to
offer the sacrifices. Exodus 25 we begin to see the Tabernacle of His design. In
Ex.27 we are given the instructions for the altar and in chapter 29 the
instructions for consecrating the sons of Aaron, the Levitical Priests. Then
about verse 13 we see the Altar designed by God used for the first time. I
figure you will probably argue that this is the Tabernacle, not the Temple, but
you need to understand that the Tabernacle was the forerunner of the Temple. Now
read all of Ex 29, taking note of Who,what,when and why of these sacrifices.
Where does an ordinary man make a sacrifice?
Take special notice of verses
42-44. Especially verse 44. Who consecrates the Altar? Certainly not a
man!
What happened when Aaron made
an altar NOT consecrated by God (Ex.32)? Moses pleads with God for the peoples
sake. Instead of killing the Israelites God nails them with a plague (32:25) So
go right ahead David, build an altar if you wish, but be warned you will be
thumbing your nose at God if you do. So now the rest of Exodus pretty much tells
us about the building of the Tabernacle and the order in which it is set
up.
Then we get to Leviticus and
the rules for making offerings. Again, it cannot be done in ones own yard or
without a Levitical Priest. It can only be done at the Tabernacle then after
Solomon builds the Temple at the Temple. And remember, the Tabernacle was the
portable Temple during the time when the Israelites were still very much a band
of nomads.
The first Temple was built by
Solomon of course. But not without God's blessing. Remember God didn't allow
David to build it because he had blood on his hands. I think it's interesting
that folling this same line of thought we can see why the Temple has not been
rebuilt in our time yet. Since Israel became an independant state in 1947 it has
had bloodstained leaders! When Israel elects a leader that is free of a
bloodstained past I think the Temple will be built almost overnight and when
it's ready God, Himself will light the fire on the Altar because man let it go
out in violation of Lev.6:12-13. It was to be kept burning
eternally.
I'm too tired to go any further
tonight so I'll let you stew on this and maybe if you can discuss this in a
civil manner with out trying to pick more of a fight I'll continue.
Jeff
Life makes warriors of us all.To
emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of
weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

Re: [TruthTalk] Brotherhood

In a message dated 1/9/2005 3:05:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:38:04 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So be it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) 
when this confession is so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood" is based 
upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and 
and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals !!
  
jt: The Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of mankind is a concept that comes from Freemasonry John. It is
 not the doctrine "once delivered to the saints" upon which the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ stands.   

The Fatherhood of God is clearly taught in scripture.   The "brotherhood of man"  has nothing to do with my post. 


 
Dave will never agree with us "protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.   Nor will I ever be whatever Judy 
is  (I truly do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   
 
jt: I'm a follower of Christ John. I don't promote any denomination.

Great.  Neither do I.   I fact,  I just pretend they are not there when it comes ot determining fellowship in Christ.   If one names the Name, makes the kind of confession admitted to by David H and myself,   a brotherhood of believers is the result.    

  
But the fact embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way that cannot be destroyed.  Why so  
     because we are only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as the Author and Finisher.   
Joseph Smith is not that  --   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the like.  
 
jt: Why do you say "passively involved" John? I'm not passive. 

Neither am I .   But activity does not establish the reconcilation between God and man  --   only Christ can and did accomplish this for us.  His death is once and for all time  --   as you well know  -   thus, eliminating the need for us to cause this reconciliation.   Salvation is a gift.   That is what I mean by passivity.   The love of God, our deep appreciation for this gift, the influence of the Spirit and so much more causes us to respond.  We don't respond to solve theproblem,   We respond because the problem has been solved by someone other than ourselves.  


In fact I fear being lukewarm because Jesus said

 he would spew that kind out of his mouth.  I don't believe we need to be just like anyone else but we should all be
 saying the same thing.about the one we serve that is.
  
judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

Bill Taylor wrote:
>> The Son did not become less than God
>> in his service to humanity

David Miller wrote:
>> 1. Yeshua, in his earthly service to humanity,
>> was made a little lower than the angels.
>> 2. Yeshua said his father was greater than he was.
>> Do such facts have any relevance in discussing the
>> notion of equality with God?

Bill Taylor wrote:
>  I fail to see how this statement needs to be handled
> or understood in a light different than that of the
> kenosis of Phi 2.5-11. ...
> rather than parse my thoughts into oblivion,
> how about a definitive statement from you on
> your own teaching on these matters? That, it
> seems to me, would give us all a comparative
> basis upon which to draw. God bless you.
> I will be eagerly awaiting your presentation.

-
ke·no·sis
noun
partial relinquishing of divinity: according to Christian belief, Jesus 
Christ's act of partially giving up his divine status in order to become a 
man, as recorded in Philippians 2: 6-7

[Late 19th century. From Greek kenosis "an emptying," from the phrase in 
Philippians 2:7 heauton ekenose "emptied himself."]
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft 
Corporation. All rights reserved.
-

I don't think I have it all figured out, Bill, and I am certainly not as 
good a writer as you are.  Nevertheless, following are some thoughts I have 
which perhaps explain how I view the kenosis.

I perceive that in the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, 
and the Logos was God.  The Logos did not perceive equality with God 
something to be held onto, but rather he emptied himself, and took the form 
of a servant, being born of a woman by the power of the Holy Spirit, not 
just a son of a woman, but was born the son of God by his miraculous mighty 
power.

At this point he took upon himself some other names.  The Logos became known 
as the Son of man.  The Son of God.  Emmanuel.  Yeshua.  Jesus.  Messiah. 
Christ.  The Cornerstone.  The Lamb of God.  Apostle of God.  High Priest of 
God.  Previously he was unknown by these names, but he now took upon himself 
a new function which brought upon him new names and new titles.

In becoming the man we know as Yeshua, the Logos relinquished some of his 
glory that he had with Yahweh.  He did not relinquish any of his divinity. 
Who he was had not changed.  Rather, he set aside the power and glory which 
he had in the beginning.  He took upon himself the flesh of man and became a 
servant, being made lower than the angels.  There are some ways in which he 
is equal to the father.  He takes the father's name and inherits all that is 
the father's.  There are other ways in which he is not equal to the father. 
This is why he said that the father is greater than he is. On the earth in 
human flesh, he did not have the glory and power that the father had.  So he 
was not equal in this way.  He was not omniscient, which is why he prayed so 
much and inquired of others, and he was not omnipotent, which is why he said 
he could have called angels to deliver him from the crucifixion instead of 
saying that he could have just used his powers as God to escape them.  So 
becoming the son was a humbling experience.  The role of son is to represent 
God to a world in darkness, and to submit unto the death of a cross when the 
world which was made by him rejected him.  This was the specific role of the 
son of God.  And now he is resurrected and glorified with the glory which he 
had with the father in the beginning.  We will always remember his role as 
the son, but as he rules upon the throne of David, he will be better known 
in our hearts as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Everlasting 
Father.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 2:08:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Read Romans 2 again.  The Gentile there is one who had faith in Christ.
Otherwise, Paul contradicts other statements that he makes in the book of
Romans.


Paul's point in Romans 2 is this:   Paul is concerned with the issue of judgment some members of the church might levy against others. He reminds them of two things, at least, in this passage.   1)  Judging others is wrong because in some ways, we are all guilty  ( v v 1-3).   2) Secondly, judging is wrong because God is the one, in this case, who works the work of repentance (v 4) and judgment through Christ (v 15,16).   The Gentiles, in this passage are in contrast to those of prominence within the church  (v v 17ff).  They (those in prominence) have the Law;   they are teachers of the immature and are the embodiment of knowledge and truth.  By contrast, these Gentiles KNOW NOTHING. They have heard nothing (v v 13,14) that would cause them to even begin to compare with those of prominence.  All these Gentiles have, by contrast, is a natural inclination to perform what is essentially required in the Law.   Paul is saying  " You have all this going from you and are wrong while they have nothing going for themselves except righteous (as it turns out) effort.   While we might have everything going for us, the only thing that really works in our expressed effort at living outside ourselves is  Jesus.   
 

You are not the only who goes elsewhere in the letter or the biblical message to argue the point that this passage could not possibly mean what it says.  I see no contradiction, but more importantly,  I see the critical importance for the existence of these Gentiles in this illustration.  Without them,  Paul's point is without the contrast necessary to the making of his point.  

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Temple Altar is necessary for Torah Observance?

Jeff wrote:
> I think the better translation would
> be more along the line of,
> Lev 23:42 "You shall dwell in booths seven
> days; all that are home-born in Israel shall
> dwell in booths;" JPS version

Yes, that is a better translation.  Thanks.  So the command to observe 
Sukkoth is only meant for the home-born Israelite?  Is that how you read it?

Jeff wrote:
> David you still DO NOT UNDERSTAND the sacrificial
> system of the Temple. There can be no sacrifices without
> the Temple Altar.  It's amazing, I know 6,7 and 8 year
> olds that understand this ... 

I know, Jeff.  I'm a little bit slow and a quart low sometimes.  I really 
depend upon smart guys like you who take time to explain this stuff to me. 
I don't know where you find the patience to respond to someone as stupid as 
I am.

My first problem in understanding you is that there was no Temple when the 
Torah was written, so it seems really confusing to me why you would think 
that there needs to be a Temple Altar.

Are you saying that if I build my own altar (kind of like Noah did) to 
observe the Torah commandments that I would be in violation of Torah?  Can 
you tell me what passage I would be in violation of?

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

p.s.  I know how the Jew answers this, but I'm not sure how you would answer 
this.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report

Embarrassment

-- slade

-Original Message-
From: Terry Clifton
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 07.13
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report

>What did we win?  Cash? Prizes?
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report

We have 28 subscribers.

-- slade

-Original Message-
From: Dave Hansen
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 02.06
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report

BTWHow many TTers are currently subscribed?
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




hey, what ever he is, benny ha ha has a great 
money-making shtick going!  Now if only he could see clear to support a 
couple of starving seminary students!
:)
Jeff
 
Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, 
we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is 
prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  ShieldsFamily 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 
20:56
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal 
  Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
  
  
  Try 
  Lebanese?
   
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff PowersSent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 6:08 
  PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal 
  Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
   
  
  Isn't Benny Hinn 
  Jewish?
  

- Original Message - 


From: Slade 
Henson 

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 


Sent: Sunday, 
January 09, 2005 18:28

Subject: RE: 
[TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to 
Me

 

You forgot your 
guyBenny Hinn...right???

 

:)

 

Kay

  -Original 
  Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 
  14.38To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the 
  Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
  In a message 
  dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
it is not because of his 
faith  --   it is because of the faith of Christ Jesus 
Himself.   There is salvation in none other.  On that we 
all agree.  Does Dave Hansen 
agree?
  DAVEH:  
  Yes.
  John
   
  So be 
  it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a 
  brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is 
  so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively 
  argue that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him 
  no longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay 
  as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance 
  as Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us 
  "protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.   
  Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do not know her 
  denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   But the fact 
  embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way that cannot 
  be destroyed.  Why so      because we 
  are only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as 
  the Author and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  
  --   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, 
  Luther and the like.  
JD

RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me









Try Lebanese?

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Powers
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005
6:08 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the
Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me



 



Isn't Benny Hinn Jewish?







- Original Message - 





From: Slade
Henson 





To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org






Sent: Sunday, January
09, 2005 18:28





Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me





 





You forgot your guyBenny
Hinn...right???





 





:)





 





Kay





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005
14.38
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the
Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03
AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:






it is not because of his faith  --   it is
because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is salvation in
none other.  On that we all agree.  

Does Dave Hansen agree?




DAVEH:  Yes.




John

 



So be it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a
brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is
so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue
that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him
no longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay as a
Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as
Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us
"protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to
Mormonism.   Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do
not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   But the
fact embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way
that cannot be destroyed.  Why so     
because we are only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ
as the Author and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that 
--   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther
and the like.  

JD

RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?









It’s economics, Kay.  Settle
and lose a little or win a drawn out case and lose more (due to legal costs).
Izzy

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005
5:48 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats
next?



 



If the case will lose, then the other side
should refuse to settle. Never, ever take a plea bargain if you're not guilty.
I learned that one first hand.





 





Kay





-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Friday, 07 January, 2005
00.21
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats
next?

Kay, REALLY if it’s a case that bad
of course it will go to court.  Problem is, even with a case that will
lose, it’s cheaper for the insurance co to bail out with a settlement;
otherwise they go on for weeks or more. Izzy

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005
7:35 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats
next?



 



I don't pay for insurance.





The easy fix is...refuse to settle. Go to
trial and if the claim is truly meritless, it will lose. But, in my opinion,
the doctor who removes the wrong kidney should be suedand lose his license.
Would it be Biblical to ask for his kidney in exchangeeye for an
eye...tooth for a tooth...kidney for a kidney:)





 





Kay





-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005
20.26
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats
next?



 

(Sorry Iz, I cannot support him on this one, either:)

You never file any claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a
dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let the jury decide. Juries tend to award the
big bucks.Kay

 

PS
I forgot to mention, juries don’t even usually get to the point of making
a judgment.  Most medical malpractice suits are settled out of court to
avoid the soaring costs.  The lawyers for the “injured”
patients know this, and their whole strategy is just to get an out of court
settlement—it’s almost guaranteed.  All you have to do is file
a ridiculous claim and you’ll get several thousand dollars for it as a
buy-out by the medical lawyers to avoid having to go through the whole
trial.  It’s such a scam!  I was on a jury this past spring
that had this exact thing happen.  It all adds up to impossible legal fees
for no valid reason, and it harms you and me because we are losing medical care
everywhere. It costs millions of dollars/year (from insurance and the
gov’t, which we also pay) because doctors must order all kinds of tests
as a defense in case there is a claim against them for some reason—it’s
called defensive medicine.  This is why insurance costs are going through
the roof.  Do you like paying exorbitant insurance rates??? (I
don’t!) Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?









Way to go—promote more
lawsuits.  Don’t be thankful that things turned out okay.  It’s
biblical and exactly what our nation needs more of, right? J Izzy

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005
5:47 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats
next?



 



So, if a doctor took the wrong kidney on
you, what would you do? Forgive and forget? Woops, little slip there with the
knife, doc had one too many to drink before he came in tonight.





By the wayI met with a client last
night who had a little slip up in the OR. Doc cut his femoral artery while in
surgery. The man almost bled to death. He's got a wife and kids. I told him not
to settle. Go to trial...with a jury.





 





 





Kay





-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Friday, 07 January, 2005
00.21
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats
next?

As I said, most cases never reach a jury,
and the plaintiff’s lawyers know it.  Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Reggie White NFL Football Player

It is a time of rejoicing

Deut. 16:14 WOULD include you.

REJOICE at your festival--you, your sons and daughters, your male and female
slaves, the Levi living in your towns, and the FOREIGNERS [that would be
you, David], orphans and widowers among you. [You qualify...you're among
US...here goes the US and THEM...:)] v.15 Seven days you are to keep the
festival FOR ADONAI [for who?? God...not the Jews] your God [Whose God? YOUR
God. Isn't He the same God I have...the one in the Bible, right?]in the
place Adonai your God will choose, BECAUSE[here's the kicker!!] Adonai
your God will BLESS YOU in all your crops and in all your work, so you are
to BE FULL OF JOY! [Whoa, too cool]

Again, we see blessing for obedience. What's so hard about obeying God
regarding an eight day long party

By the way...the whole sacrifice part of your post...get real, David.


Kay

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 17.43
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Reggie White NFL Football Player


Kay wrote:
> Are you thinking of celebrating Sukkot?

It depends upon what you mean by the word "celebrating."  Are you sure you
meant to use this word?

This week is actually meant to be a week of remembrance, with special
sacrifices made by fire each day.  If you are asking me if I am thinking of
dwelling in booths made with branches of palms and willows, and sacrificing
the 199 animals that are commanded to be sacrificed during this festival,
the answer is no.  The Torah teaches that this remembrance is for the
Israelite born, which I am not.  Note verse 42 below:

Leviticus 23:39-43
(39) Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered
in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on
the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
(40) And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees,
branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the
brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
(41) And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It
shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in
the seventh month.
(42) Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; ALL THAT ARE ISRAELITES BORN shall
dwell in booths:
(43) That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to
dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD
your God.

On the other hand, if you are NOT talking about Torah observance but whether
I might take a camping vacation during this week in September with some
Messianics, then my answer might be a little different. :-)  You will have
to ask again when the season gets here.  I have not planned that far ahead.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




Are 
Jews no longer Jewish when they accept their very Jewish 
Savior?
Does 
anyone agree 100% with what their church, home group, denomination, etc. has to 
say regarding doctrine or beliefs?
For 
instance, our ministry is affiliated with another rather large ministry and I 
don't believe everything they teach or believe. Do ALL Baptists believe 
they can't dance, can't drink, can't play cards, can't go to movies? Do all 
Pentecostals believe in Jesus Only, or that women have to have long hair and 
wear it in a beehive thing and wear long dresses? Do all Plymouth Brethren 
believe they have to take communion every Sunday? Are ALL 7th Day Adventists 
veggie heads and do they ALL believe Helen G. White is a prophet completely 
without error? Do ALL Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception or her 
perpetual virginity? Do ALL Mormons have more than one wife? Do ALL Amish refuse 
to ride in cars? Do ALL Muslims hate Jews and Christians?
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Dave 
  HansenSent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 18.12To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal 
  Sonship of Christ Matters to Me[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  it is not because of his faith  --   it is 
because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is 
salvation in none other.  On that we all agree.  Does 
Dave Hansen agree?DAVEH:  Yes.
  JohnSo be it  
   How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother ( in 
the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is 
so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively 
argue that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no 
longer a MormonDAVEH:   ???   
  Not sure why you would deny me Mormonism while maintaining Protestantism, 
  JD.  Is that not a double standard?
  but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay as a 
Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as 
Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us 
"protestants,"DAVEH:  Seems like I already 
  didat least in one aspect..that without Jesus, there would be no 
  salvation.
    nor will any of us convert to 
  Mormonism.DAVEH:   Heyno need to draw 
  hasty conclusions, JD!    :-D 
  
     Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly 
do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   
But the fact embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way 
that cannot be destroyed. DAVEH:   
  Perhaps.But I suspect you are making a lot of TTers rather uncomfortable 
  right now, JD.  Very few TTers are going to feel good about getting 
  chummy with a Mormon boy.
  Why so      because we are only 
passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as the Author 
and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  --   
neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the 
like.  JD-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




He's from Lebanon. judyt
 
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:48:39 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
writes:

  I 
  think he's from Palestine
   
  Kay
  
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff 
PowersSent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 19.08To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the 
Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Isn't Benny Hinn Jewish?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Slade Henson 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 
  18:28
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Why the 
  Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
  
  You forgot your guyBenny Hinn...right???
   
  :)
   
  Kay
  
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 
Sunday, 09 January, 2005 14.38To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to 
MeIn a message dated 
1/9/2005 6:59:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  it is not because of his faith  --   it 
is because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There 
is salvation in none other.  On that we all agree.  
Does Dave Hansen agree?DAVEH:  
  Yes.
  JohnSo be 
it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a 
brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is 
so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively 
argue that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds 
him no longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and 
and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and 
Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never 
agree with us "protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to 
Mormonism.   Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I 
truly do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is 
BillyT.   But the fact embraced in the above "confession" 
binds us together in a way that cannot be destroyed.  Why 
so      because we are only passively 
involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as the Author and 
Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  --   
neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the 
like.  JD

RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




I 
think he's from Palestine
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jeff 
  PowersSent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 19.08To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal 
  Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
  Isn't Benny Hinn Jewish?
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Slade 
Henson 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 
18:28
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Why the 
Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

You forgot your guyBenny Hinn...right???
 
:)
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 
  Sunday, 09 January, 2005 14.38To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
  Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to 
  MeIn a message dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03 
  AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
it is not because of his faith  --   it is 
  because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is 
  salvation in none other.  On that we all agree.  
  Does Dave Hansen agree?DAVEH:  
Yes.
JohnSo be 
  it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a 
  brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is 
  so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively 
  argue that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him 
  no longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay 
  as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance 
  as Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us 
  "protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.   
  Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do not know her 
  denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   But the fact 
  embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way that cannot 
  be destroyed.  Why so      because we 
  are only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as 
  the Author and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  
  --   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, 
  Luther and the like.  JD

RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement




Unfortunately DavidM decided this was a major reason that the Messianic 
Movement is dangerous. I am merely quoting DavidM in this manner. Please know 
that in my last email, the courier font was DavidM.
 
-- 
slade

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 
  04.18To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: 
  [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/8/2005 7:34:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who 
emphasize shadows over reality.News flash  
      Truth is "dangerous."    The above 
  comments, once again, have nothing to do with the actual debate 
  itself.   Whether an aspect of a movement is "dangerous" is of no 
  logical consequence to the discussion at hand  --    but, 
  oh how we love to press our judgment as if that carried some weight in the 
  determination of "truth." Christ's claims were considered 
  "dangerous."   So what ? !!  It seems to me that a better use 
  of script would be to simply stick to the subject.  
Jd

RE: [TruthTalk] On Echad




If you 
like, I have one already done..
 
-- 
slade

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Bill 
  TaylorSent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 18.40To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] On 
  Echad
  
  No need to throw the baby out with the bath 
  water, Judy. Three Persons, Yes -- but One God. Do a study on the Hebrew word 
  echad; that will help you understand the oneness of God.
   
  Bill
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Judy 
Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:43 
AM
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon 
Related #2

jt: I wouldn't have thought that at one time but I 
am now seriously reconsidering in light of all this
Eternal Father, Eternal Son talk.  I had 
thought that Godhead and Trinity were speaking of the same 
thing
Now I'm not so sure.  If the Father and Son 
are locked into these roles then it appears that some are speaking 

of three separate personages and/or gods.  
judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




Isn't Benny Hinn Jewish?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Slade 
  Henson 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 
18:28
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal 
  Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
  
  You 
  forgot your guyBenny Hinn...right???
   
  :)
   
  Kay
  
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, 
09 January, 2005 14.38To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: 
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to 
MeIn a message dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03 AM 
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  it is not because of his faith  --   it is 
because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is 
salvation in none other.  On that we all agree.  Does 
Dave Hansen agree?DAVEH:  Yes.
  JohnSo be it  
   How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother ( in 
the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is 
so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively 
argue that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no 
longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay as a 
Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as 
Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us 
"protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.   
Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do not know her 
denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   But the fact 
embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way that cannot be 
destroyed.  Why so      because we are 
only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as the 
Author and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  
--   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, 
Luther and the like.  JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Brotherhood

JS: Nor will I ever be whatever Judy
is (I truly do not know her denominational
tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.
jt: I'm a follower of Christ John. I
don't promote any denomination.
BillyT goes to a Baptist Church (Conservative
Baptist), but Bill likes to think of himself as a free-agent. I don't mind the
fact that there are myriad denominations. I've learned from them all -- some
good, some bad. I think it is much better to be a participating member in a
local church than it is to think you've got a direct line with God and don't
need fellowship. That fellowship teaches us a whole lot about ourselves and how
to love our neighbors through the long haul -- you know, when disagreements
arise and such.
Bill
PS Hey Judy, if you don't mind me asking, what
church do you attend? Are you a member of a local congregation? I seem to
remember you saying something about this before. I could look it up if you
like.

- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 4:01
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Brotherhood

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:38:04 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:So be it How can I conclude that Dave
Hansen is not a brother ( in the grandest sense of that word)

when this confession is so?
The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood" is
based
upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no
longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and

and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin
Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals
!!
jt: The Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood
of mankind is a concept that comes from Freemasonry John. It
is
not the doctrine "once
delivered to the saints" upon which the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ
stands.
Dave will never agree with us
"protestants," nor will any of us convert to Mormonism. Nor
will I ever be whatever Judy
is (I truly do not know her
denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.

jt: I'm a follower of Christ John.
I don't promote any denomination.
But the fact embraced in the above "confession"
binds us together in a way that cannot be destroyed. Why
so
because we are
only passively involved in this reconciliation that
names Christ as the Author and Finisher.
Joseph Smith is not that --
neither is Charles Finney, the Pope, Calvin, Luther and the
like.
jt: Why do you say "passively
involved" John? I'm not passive. In fact I fear being lukewarm because Jesus
said
he would spew that kind out of his
mouth. I don't believe we need to be just like anyone else but we should
all be
saying the same thing.about the
one we serve that is.
judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]

I think the better translation would be more along the 
line of,

Lev 23:42 "You shall dwell in booths seven days; all that 
are home-born in Israel shall dwell in booths;" 
JPS version
But then this was a shadow of things to come, in our 
Fathers Kingdom, we will celebrate with all the sacrifices and all the pagentry 
and glory to God! And we are going to have a great time! Well, some of us, the 
rest are going to be suprized that they were wrong. But thats OK God is going to 
have Yeshua teach ya'll how it's done and after the shock you will have a great 
time also!
Also, David you still DO NOT UNDERSTAND the sacrificial 
system of the Temple. There can be no sacrifices without the Temple Altar.  
It's amazing, I know 6,7 and 8 year olds that understand this, yet grown adults 
that are in denial of God's Covenant fail to grasp the meaning. Serve Yeshua as 
He served His Father and you just might begin to understand.
Jeff
Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, 
we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is 
prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 17:42
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football 
Player]
> Kay 
wrote:>> Are you thinking of celebrating Sukkot?> > It 
depends upon what you mean by the word "celebrating."  Are you sure you 
> meant to use this word?> > This week is actually meant to 
be a week of remembrance, with special > sacrifices made by fire each 
day.  If you are asking me if I am thinking of > dwelling in booths 
made with branches of palms and willows, and sacrificing > the 199 
animals that are commanded to be sacrificed during this festival, > the 
answer is no.  The Torah teaches that this remembrance is for the > 
Israelite born, which I am not.  Note verse 42 below:> > 
Leviticus 23:39-43> (39) Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, 
when ye have gathered > in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast 
unto the LORD seven days: on > the first day shall be a sabbath, and on 
the eighth day shall be a sabbath.> (40) And ye shall take you on the 
first day the boughs of goodly trees, > branches of palm trees, and the 
boughs of thick trees, and willows of the > brook; and ye shall rejoice 
before the LORD your God seven days.> (41) And ye shall keep it a feast 
unto the LORD seven days in the year. It > shall be a statute for ever in 
your generations: ye shall celebrate it in > the seventh month.> 
(42) Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; ALL THAT ARE ISRAELITES BORN shall 
> dwell in booths:> (43) That your generations may know that I 
made the children of Israel to > dwell in booths, when I brought them out 
of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD > your God.> > On the 
other hand, if you are NOT talking about Torah observance but whether > I 
might take a camping vacation during this week in September with some > 
Messianics, then my answer might be a little different. :-)  You will have 
> to ask again when the season gets here.  I have not planned that 
far ahead.> > Peace be with you.> David Miller. > 
> > --> "Let your speech be always with grace, 
seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org> 
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you 
will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he 
will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?




If the 
case will lose, then the other side should refuse to settle. Never, ever take a 
plea bargain if you're not guilty. I learned that one first 
hand.
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  ShieldsFamilySent: Friday, 07 January, 2005 00.21To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats 
  next?
  
  Kay, REALLY if it’s a 
  case that bad of course it will go to court.  Problem is, even with a 
  case that will lose, it’s cheaper for the insurance co to bail out with a 
  settlement; otherwise they go on for weeks or more. 
  Izzy
   
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Slade 
  HensonSent: Thursday, 
  January 06, 2005 7:35 PMTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats 
  next?
   
  
  I don't pay for 
  insurance.
  
  The easy fix 
  is...refuse to settle. Go to trial and if the claim is truly meritless, it 
  will lose. But, in my opinion, the doctor who removes the wrong kidney should 
  be suedand lose his license. Would it be Biblical to ask for his kidney in 
  exchangeeye for an eye...tooth for a tooth...kidney for a 
  kidney:)
  
   
  
  Kay
  
-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Thursday, 06 January, 2005 
20.26To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats 
next?

 
(Sorry Iz, I cannot 
support him on this one, either:)
You never file any 
claim, (tort claim or otherwise) with a dollar amount in it. You ALWAYS let 
the jury decide. Juries tend to award the big 
bucks.Kay
 
PS I forgot to mention, juries 
don’t even usually get to the point of making a judgment.  Most medical 
malpractice suits are settled out of court to avoid the soaring costs.  
The lawyers for the “injured” patients know this, and their whole strategy 
is just to get an out of court settlement—it’s almost guaranteed.  All 
you have to do is file a ridiculous claim and you’ll get several thousand 
dollars for it as a buy-out by the medical lawyers to avoid having to go 
through the whole trial.  It’s such a scam!  I was on a jury this 
past spring that had this exact thing happen.  It all adds up to 
impossible legal fees for no valid reason, and it harms you and me because 
we are losing medical care everywhere. It costs millions of dollars/year 
(from insurance and the gov’t, which we also pay) because doctors must order 
all kinds of tests as a defense in case there is a claim against them for 
some reason—it’s called defensive medicine.  This is why insurance 
costs are going through the roof.  Do you like paying exorbitant 
insurance rates??? (I don’t!) Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Whats next?




So, if 
a doctor took the wrong kidney on you, what would you do? Forgive and forget? 
Woops, little slip there with the knife, doc had one too many to drink before he 
came in tonight.
By the 
wayI met with a client last night who had a little slip up in the OR. Doc 
cut his femoral artery while in surgery. The man almost bled to death. He's got 
a wife and kids. I told him not to settle. Go to trial...with a 
jury.
 
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  ShieldsFamilySent: Friday, 07 January, 2005 00.21To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Whats 
  next?
  
  As I said, most cases 
  never reach a jury, and the plaintiff’s lawyers know it.  
  Izzy

[TruthTalk] On Echad





No need to throw the baby out with the bath water, 
Judy. Three Persons, Yes -- but One God. Do a study on the Hebrew word 
echad; that will help you understand the oneness of God.
 
Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:43 
  AM
  Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon 
  Related #2
  
  jt: I wouldn't have thought that at one time but I am 
  now seriously reconsidering in light of all this
  Eternal Father, Eternal Son talk.  I had thought 
  that Godhead and Trinity were speaking of the same thing
  Now I'm not so sure.  If the Father and Son are 
  locked into these roles then it appears that some are speaking 
  of three separate personages and/or gods.  
  judyt
   
  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:45:18 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  writes:
  
So, you're saying...yes, you believe in multiple gods, but you only 
worship only ONE God? Or LDS believe in multiple gods and YOU personally 
only worship/believe in one? Do you think the Trinity doctrine is 
worshipping three Gods?  Kay

  Slade Henson wrote: 
  
  





All I did was read the definition. As Christian is defined, lots 
of denominations would be included.
Are you saying that Dave believes in multiple gods?  KayDAVEH:  
  Yes.. but I believe we are only to worship one God.  IMHO the 
  Bible supports my belief, but a lot of folks have gotten sidetracked by 
  the T-Doctrine.
  

 
Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot 
to sign it.

  
  
  I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian 
  category.
  
  Kay
  
  Kay, I find it amazing that you 
  believe that a believer in multiple gods is a Christian. How do you 
  figure? izzy
  
  -- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




John wrote  >  when, exactly, 
was the prodigal saved?   When he came to himself?   When he 
turned and started the trek home?   When he saw his 
father?   When he came to the door of the house?   When he 
entered therein or when or accepted and particiated in the meal?   I 
say  --   in the pit, with the swine, covered with mud,  
coming to himself.   
 
I say he was the father's son throughout. The fact 
that the father was always looking for his son's return ought to tell us that 
the son was accepted and loved and considered a son throughout. Repentance 
brought the son to his senses; it did not make him a son. Repentance brings us 
to our senses; it does not make us sons or daughters of God. Adopted 
in Christ, we are already His children.
 
Bill
 
 


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 2:12 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal 
  Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
  In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:52:57 AM Pacific 
  Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:43:50 -0800 Dave Hansen 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
writes:
DAVEH:  ???   Do you believe one can be saved 
  without obedience to repentance?John: Aaah.   
  My first real question after stating that I know what I believe.  
  What we might call "obedience",  which would include repentance, 
  doing good,  confession, visiting the widows and the fatherless, 
  taking communion and the like, are things we do because we have been 
  saved  --   because we are already involved with 
  God.  jt: Say John, this is a discussion isn't it?  It's not 
  just a "wise one" (like a guru or something) taking questions and giving 
  answers - right?Read my first post in this 
  thread (of mine) and the above question will be seen as a waste of 
  effort.  I am not the one on this list who speaks excethedra, Judy.  
  
  
I'd say 'obedience' goes much deeper than the things you 
  list above which are all outward. God desires truth in the "inward parts" 
  and anyone who claims to be saved by the faith of Jesus ought to be 
  walking the same walk as Jesus and doing what he did. Jesus said "Lo, I 
  come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy 
  will, O GodThen said he, Lo I come to do thy 
  will, O God..." (Hebrews 10:7,9).  So how does one claim to 
  be saved by Jesus' faith and ATST reject obedience?  Isn't there 
  something wrong with this picture?Right on.   
  
  
 That passage in Philip 2:12,13 is critical to 
  me.     "Wherefore my beloved, as ye 
  have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much 
  more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 
  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good 
  pleasure." (Phil 2:12,13)  The notion that "no man 
  comes to the Son except the Father draw him" ( a paraphrase of John 6:44) 
  is explained in this passage   "No man can come to me, 
  except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at 
  the last day. (John 6:44) It is written in the prophets, And they 
  shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that 
  hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, 
  cometh unto me."So far, we are on the same 
  page, my Child.  
  
 --- "work out your salvation in fear and trembling for 
  it is God at work in you both to will and do His good 
  pleasure."   BOTH TO WILL AND TO 
  PERFORM.  Sure John, but (see above) 
  first one must hear and learn and be taught of God before they are able to 
  'come to Jesus' and many are hearing and learning from a polluted 
well.So many are waiting that 
  pracher to show and tell.  
  
There is a sense, a very real sense, that God is a part 
  of our lives already.   When Chrsit speaks of the 
  children, he says " for such is the Kingdom  ..."  
    He is talking about their trust and faith in someone higher 
  than themselvesHe is talking about 
  kids   -   not to deny your conclusion above.  
  
  
  God is already there.  He created us, 
  He draws us unto Himself,  if you believe that Christ is God 
  Manifested and Defined;   He is the influence that wills good 
  works,  He is power that performs those good works. What we are doing 
  when we repent or confess or feed the poor  --  is 
  this:   we are responding to the God within.   
  Both 
  New Agers and 12 Step Programs teach that we have a Higher Power residing 
  within. Are you speaking of the same thing here John? Like Shirley Maclaine when 
  she stood on the sand at Malibu raised her arms heavenward and said "I am 
  God" - is not such a great leap from this kind of 
  thinkingIf you go back to my 
  post,

RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




You 
forgot your guyBenny Hinn...right???
 
:)
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 
  14.38To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: 
  [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to 
  MeIn a message dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03 AM 
  Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
it is not because of his faith  --   it is 
  because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is 
  salvation in none other.  On that we all agree.  Does 
  Dave Hansen agree?DAVEH:  Yes.
JohnSo be it  
     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother ( in the 
  grandest sense of that word) when this confession is so?    The 
  only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood" is 
  based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no longer a Mormon but allows me 
  to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a 
  Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals 
  !!   Dave will never agree with us "protestants,"  nor will any 
  of us convert to Mormonism.   Nor will I ever be whatever Judy 
  is  (I truly do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is 
  BillyT.   But the fact embraced in the above "confession" binds us 
  together in a way that cannot be destroyed.  Why so   
     because we are only passively involved in this 
  reconciliation that names Christ as the Author and Finisher.   
  Joseph Smith is not that  --   neither is Charles Finney,  
  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the like.  
JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me







[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03 AM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  
it
is not because of his faith  --   it is because of the faith of Christ
Jesus Himself.   There is salvation in none other.  On that we all
agree.  
  
Does Dave Hansen agree?


DAVEH:  Yes.

John


  
  
  
So be it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother (
in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is so?    The
only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood"
is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no longer a Mormon
DAVEH:   ???   Not sure why you would deny me Mormonism while
maintaining Protestantism, JD.  Is that not a double standard?
 but allows me to continue as a
Pentecostal and and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool
For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will
never agree with us "protestants,"
DAVEH:  Seems like I already didat least in one aspect..that
without Jesus, there would be no salvation.
  nor will any of us convert to
Mormonism.
DAVEH:   Heyno need to draw hasty conclusions, JD!     :-D 
   Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is 
(I truly do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is
BillyT.   But the fact embraced in the above "confession" binds us
together in a way that cannot be destroyed. 
  
DAVEH:   Perhaps.But I suspect you are making a lot of TTers rather
uncomfortable right now, JD.  Very few TTers are going to feel good
about getting chummy with a Mormon boy.
 Why so      because we are
only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as the
Author and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  --   neither is
Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the like.  
  
JD
  
  
  

-- 
~~~
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Re: [TruthTalk] Brotherhood




 
 
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:38:04 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:So be it     How can I conclude that Dave 
Hansen is not a brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) 

when this confession is so?    The 
only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood" is based 

upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no longer 
a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and 
and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin 
Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals 
!!
 
jt: The Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of 
mankind is a concept that comes from Freemasonry John. It is
not the doctrine "once 
delivered to the saints" upon which the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ 
stands.    
 
Dave will never agree with us 
"protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.   Nor 
will I ever be whatever Judy 
is  (I truly do not know her denominational 
tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   
 
jt: I'm a follower of Christ John. I 
don't promote any denomination.
 
But the fact embraced in the above "confession" 
binds us together in a way that cannot be destroyed.  Why 
so  
    because we are 
only passively involved in this reconciliation that 
names Christ as the Author and Finisher.   
Joseph Smith is not that  --   
neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the 
like.  
 
jt: Why do you say "passively 
involved" John? I'm not passive. In fact I fear being lukewarm because Jesus 
said
he would spew that kind out of his 
mouth.  I don't believe we need to be just like anyone else but we should 
all be
saying the same thing.about the 
one we serve that is.
 
judyt

Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: Reggie White NFL Football Player]

Kay wrote:
> Are you thinking of celebrating Sukkot?

It depends upon what you mean by the word "celebrating."  Are you sure you 
meant to use this word?

This week is actually meant to be a week of remembrance, with special 
sacrifices made by fire each day.  If you are asking me if I am thinking of 
dwelling in booths made with branches of palms and willows, and sacrificing 
the 199 animals that are commanded to be sacrificed during this festival, 
the answer is no.  The Torah teaches that this remembrance is for the 
Israelite born, which I am not.  Note verse 42 below:

Leviticus 23:39-43
(39) Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered 
in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on 
the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
(40) And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, 
branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the 
brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
(41) And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It 
shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in 
the seventh month.
(42) Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; ALL THAT ARE ISRAELITES BORN shall 
dwell in booths:
(43) That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to 
dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD 
your God.

On the other hand, if you are NOT talking about Torah observance but whether 
I might take a camping vacation during this week in September with some 
Messianics, then my answer might be a little different. :-)  You will have 
to ask again when the season gets here.  I have not planned that far ahead.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

John Smithson wrote to Izzy:
> You write Your faith in Christ is what saves you
> ânot His faith in you.  The first part of this statement,
> ignores the Gentile in Romans 2 who had no faith in
> Christ, was neither a Jew or a Christian but simply
> accomplished ( to a degree) those things in the law
> that could be known "instinctively."   I cannot get by
> this.

Read Romans 2 again.  The Gentile there is one who had faith in Christ.
Otherwise, Paul contradicts other statements that he makes in the book of
Romans.

Romans 2:13-16
(13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of
the law shall be justified.
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things
contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(15) Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing
or else excusing one another;)
(16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 12:32:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Is he stealing pencils at work, pilfering words from another author, not working as hard for his pay as he could and should  (a form of theft),  keeping extra change after a purchase, stealing food from a tryant or seeing good to do and stealing the time of day to do what he perfers, leaving off the good that needs to be done?   

JD  

 

Answering a question with a question?



I believe there was a follow up post.   

Did you get that?   May have not come through as yet.

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:52:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 
 
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:43:50 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 
DAVEH:  ???   Do you believe one can be saved without obedience to repentance?

John: Aaah.   My first real question after stating that I know what I believe.  What we might call "obedience",  which would include repentance, doing good,  confession, visiting the widows and the fatherless, taking communion and the like, are things we do because we have been saved  --   because we are already involved with God.  
 
jt: Say John, this is a discussion isn't it?  It's not just a "wise one" (like a guru or something) taking questions and giving answers - right?

Read my first post in this thread (of mine) and the above question will be seen as a waste of effort.  I am not the one on this list who speaks excethedra, Judy.  


 I'd say 'obedience' goes much deeper than the things you list above which are all outward. God desires truth in the "inward parts" and anyone who claims to be saved by the faith of Jesus ought to be walking the same walk as Jesus and doing what he did. Jesus said "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O GodThen said he, Lo I come to do thy will, O God..." (Hebrews 10:7,9).  So how does one claim to be saved by Jesus' faith and ATST reject obedience?  Isn't there something wrong with this picture?

Right on.   



  
That passage in Philip 2:12,13 is critical to me.   
  
"Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12,13)
  
 The notion that "no man comes to the Son except the Father draw him" ( a paraphrase of John 6:44) is explained in this passage 
  
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

So far, we are on the same page, my Child.  


  
--- "work out your salvation in fear and trembling for it is God at work in you both to will and do His good pleasure."   BOTH TO WILL AND TO PERFORM.  
 
Sure John, but (see above) first one must hear and learn and be taught of God before they are able to 'come to Jesus' and many are hearing and learning from a polluted well.

So many are waiting that pracher to show and tell.  



 
There is a sense, a very real sense, that God is a part of our lives already.   When Chrsit speaks of the children, he says " for such is the Kingdom  ..."  
  
He is talking about their trust and faith in someone higher than themselves

He is talking about kids   -   not to deny your conclusion above.  
 

  
God is already there.  He created us, He draws us unto Himself,  if you believe that Christ is God Manifested and Defined;   He is the influence that wills good works,  He is power that performs those good works. What we are doing when we repent or confess or feed the poor  --  is this:   we are responding to the God within. 
  
Both New Agers and 12 Step Programs teach that we have a Higher Power residing within. Are you speaking of the same thing here John? Like Shirley Maclaine when she stood on the sand at Malibu raised her arms heavenward and said "I am God" - is not such a great leap from this kind of thinking

If you go back to my post,  you will find scripture that reveals what I was talking about.   I never reference New Age or 12 step programs as a source of "truth."  But you know that.  



  
In view of the scriptures above, how could we not think and believe that our actions or God's actions.   I am not saved by that response  -- rather, I am saved by that relationship.   The reponses just happen. 
  
Really? And what if there is no godly fruit in the life - what then?  

This is what I believe and said    I loose my salvation when I move to serve myself and in so doing, deny the very Image I am.  I am destroyed in serving self.  Does that sound as though I believe that Christ in me will not produce godly fruit?   I certainly do not mean it that way.    


For instance let's look at Amber Frey who is well known and in the news right now.  
She was raised a Baptist, went to Church and SS but lacked a godly example at home. Still she was taught in God's Word. As a teen she became pg and had an abortion which so traumatized her she vowed never to do that again.  Later in an affair with a man barely separated who had a pg wife she became pg again and insisted upon carrying this baby to term even tho he wasn't ready to be a dad. Then came Scott Peterson and a seduction on their first date along with the public humiliation and all that .. but even before Amber witnessed at

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons are not Christians; formerly "Mormon Related #2"

Interesting. That just described most brands of Christians who also follow a
different jesus from the one we find in the Bible.

Kay

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles Perry
Locke
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 13.37
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] Mormons are not Christians; formerly "Mormon
Related #2"





   It does not matter how Christian is defined at this point in the
conversation...what matters is that before one can become a Christian, one
must know the Christ and God of the Bible, not the false christ or god of
Morminism.

   I see in Kay's response the naïveté of not knowing Mormon beliefs. Kay is
basically right in her statement that those who follow Christ are
Christians...she just does not realize that the jesus Smithism teaches is
not the Jesus described in the Bible, and the god Smithism teaches is not
the same God described in the Bible. Once she comes to a knowledge of that,
she will certainly see that the LDS worship a false god and false christ,
and therefore cannot be Christians.

   We all also must come to understand that two dictionaries are needed to
interpret between LDS word usage and Christian word usage. LDS have
redefined words with traditional Christian denotations to mean something
different in the LDS argot. Like Judy points out with understanding of the
Godhead and the Trinity. You see, to a Christian, the Trinity IS the
Godhead. To a Mormon, the godhead consists of two gods and a spirit; a false
jesus, a false god, and the spirit of the false god. Same word, two
different meanings. Many words are this way, so all should be wary when a
Mormon speaks.

Perry


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:44:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:22:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Looks like you have most of it figured out John, but as I read what you say, I sometimes have trouble seeing a concrete statement.  Please answer this question yes or no ,based on what you now believe.  If a theif believes that Christ is his Savior, but continues to steal,  Is he saved?
Terry


Is he stealing pencils at work, pilfering words from another author, not working as hard for his pay as he could and should  (a form of theft),  keeping extra change after a purchase, stealing food from a tryant or seeing good to do and stealing the time of day to do what he perfers, leaving off the good that needs to be done?   

JD
===Stealing is stealing John.  If that one is too hard, let's make him a homosexual.  If that is the pattern of his life and he claims Jesus as his Savior, but continues in his sin, according to what you now believe, is he saved?
Terry



I was hoping for an answer to my question.  But, whether a thief or a homosexual  --  it makes no difference to me. Good question, I might add.    If we take that list in Romans 1,  we can add to the short list above, back-talking our parents,  envy and arrogance.  None of these things (in and of themselves)  keep Christ from us  --    all of them, without Christ, will send us to "hell."   Our relationship with Christ, a saving relationship,  is not one thing.   "Not stealing" is no more a sign of salvation than "not burping."    A willful disregard for the will of God in my life and a  commitment to the resulting  shabbiness will find me a prodigal.   I cannot say more than this  --   I am not the one who determines eternal sentence.    Is it wrong?   Of course.   It is dangerous?  Yes.  Apart from any other consideration, is this person lost?  Yes   ---   but "any other consideration" is not my field of expertise  (nor anyone else's).  I do know that there is Christ and there is what I do.   Two different things.   One is a witness to the other.   When this is not true  --  one is in trouble.   

You know that from time to time, I counsel the gay types      incidently, never lesbians, only the guys  (wondering why?).   I have been in their homes.   In a number of cases,  I see no reason to believe that they are saved. I have seen some really disgusting things.    Also, I have seen a number of addicts who have completely given in to their addiction.  Most, in fact.    No fight is left.   No continued confession.  Nothing.   Not good for them at all.   And I do not blame the addiction  --   we are all responsible for our circumstance.   Romans 14:4 is important to me as a (pastoral) counselor  --   the reality of standing and falling is circumvented by the Master's MAKING US TO STAND.   If the sinner  (aren't we all) rejects that assistence  -   well, then, he is on his own.   I pray to never heard those words from the Lord,   "John, you are, now, on your own !!!"  

Hopefully that gives answer.   In a practical sense  --  you and I are on the same page, I am sure of that.  

John

RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me









Looks like you have most of it figured out John, but as I
read what you say, I sometimes have trouble seeing a concrete statement. 
Please answer this question yes or no ,based on what you now believe.  If
a theif believes that Christ is his Savior, but continues to steal,  Is he
saved?
Terry



Is he stealing pencils at work, pilfering words from another author, not
working as hard for his pay as he could and should  (a form of
theft),  keeping extra change after a purchase, stealing food from a
tryant or seeing good to do and stealing the time of day to do what he perfers,
leaving off the good that needs to be done?   

JD  

 

Answering a question with a question?

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 7:49:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John > How am I doing?
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." -- John 5.24

I think we're close, John.

By the way, Michael got third place again yesterday, but wrestled his best tournament of the year. He's learning to slow down the match and wrestle with more control. He got a bad draw and had to wrestle a state champ from last year in the first round (112 lbs last year, 140 this year. hm) and got beat 5-4 on a reversal in the third. From there he won out. I didn't see anything in the kid that got 2nd that would make me think Michael couldn't have handled him, at least the way they were both wrestling yesterday. Michael used your advice in his final match and beat a kid 13-6. Almost all of the points were scored on take downs and releases. Michael just didn't give him opportunity to work him from the bottom -- reversals and those dreaded 5-point reversal-to-back moves that have got him in trouble in other tournaments. Great advice. When Michael had to wrestle on top, he used a two (hands) on one (arm) that Tyler taught him over their break. Tyler had a half-dozen or more things he could do from that position. Michael doesn't have it all figured out yet, but did a good job with it, controlling his opponents.

Talk to you later,

Bill

Awesome for Michael. Wrestling your strengths and avoiding your weaknesses is a great strategy - but it only works for those who can be honest about this apprasial. I am sure Michael knows this, also, but the very best set up for standing take-downs is to get the opponent to follow you. That circling back wards action keeps Mike close to the mat's edge for easy retreat (under the pretense of aggressiveness) but it also keeps his opponent leaning/moving forward, making it almost impossible to get his feet away when attacked.

John

Feb is coming on and March is around the corner and the summer will soon be here !!!

Time flies when we are having fun.

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 7:06:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



  Sin will not separate us  --  

How am I doing?

John

The practice of sin (read: given over as a servant of sin) is not the same as sinning, 
The scriptures you quote about the practice of sin are favorites of mine, as well.  

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:59:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

it is not because of his faith  --   it is because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is salvation in none other.  On that we all agree.  

Does Dave Hansen agree?

DAVEH:  Yes.

John



So be it     How can I conclude that Dave Hansen is not a brother ( in the grandest sense of that word) when this confession is so?    The only rebuttal, as I see it, is to effectively argue that "brotherhood" is based upon doctrinal agreement that finds him no longer a Mormon but allows me to continue as a Pentecostal and and Kay as a Messianic and Bill as a Bricklayin Fool For Christ and Jonathan/Lance as Canadian Mega Liberals !!   Dave will never agree with us "protestants,"  nor will any of us convert to Mormonism.   Nor will I ever be whatever Judy is  (I truly do not know her denominational tie) or a Baptist as is BillyT.   But the fact embraced in the above "confession" binds us together in a way that cannot be destroyed.  Why so      because we are only passively involved in this reconciliation that names Christ as the Author and Finisher.   Joseph Smith is not that  --   neither is Charles Finney,  the Pope,  Calvin, Luther and the like.  

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:27:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



John, I think NOT. You say that there is salvation in none other than Christ, but also that someone whose god is Buddha is saved.  This is very confused reasoning.  Either you are IN Christ or you are NOT. Christâs âfaithâ does not save you.  (His faith in what???)  Your faith in Christ is what saves youânot His faith in you.  Who is worshipping whom??? Izzy



How do you know that the Gentile without the law in Romans 2 did not have a faith of his own  --   he certainly is not pictured as being Jewish or Christian.   If he can be saved because he was a doer,  why not the Buddist who does the same?   Again, it is not their god that saves  --  it is Christ.


The faith of Christ?   When Bill first wrote of this some time ago,   I did not agree either --   but I did not understand.    As I understand this biblical teaching today,   it is the faith of Christ, Himself, that saves me because I do not have the degree of faith that allows me to do it for myself.   As I see it, there is no choice to this teaching.   It was Christ's faithfulness to His assignment that works the working of God in my life.   Linda, ask yourself this question  --   why didn't God do all this saving of man from the comfort of His throne room?  I do not believe there is anything arbitrary about the administration of the Plan.  If that true,  then God did what He had to do and in the way it was done.

In an earlier post,  I spoke of "eternal" life as opposed to "spiritual" life.   If the life that awaits us is truly "eternal,"  it is a life force without a beginning.    It is the very force that "makes" God eternal.   Our final destiny is in that Life  -   His life.   So Christ, God Eternal,  empties Himself of that circumstance and suffers for us.    In so doing,  He reconciles that which is eternal with that which is not yet.    It is more than fitting that the Creator God is also the Author and Finisher of the Faith.   Izzy,  that makes so much sense to me, now , that I am somewhat startled that I did not see it the moment Bill introduced the idea.   

You write Your faith in Christ is what saves youânot His faith in you.  The first part of this statement, ignores the Gentile in Romans 2 who had no faith in Christ, was neither a Jew or a Christian but simply accomplished ( to a degree) those things in the law that could be known "instinctively."   I cannot get by this.   Now, I do not deny the importance of our faith.   I can say that personal faith "saves" to the same degree that anything we do saves  -   caring for the poor, visiting widows and fatherless, confession for some, repentance for others,  selling all that we own for still others,  knowing brokenness and contrition,  water baptism,  leaving off adultery ("go thy way and sin no more") and so on.  My faith in Christ does not save me as a condition of "getting " saved,  but as result of being saved by the response of Christ to His Father   [hence -- the "faith of Christ].   

I do not believe you think differently?   What I do believe, here, is that I am not doing a good job in making my case.   but the lights have gone on for me, in more ways than one this past week.  Time will tell if I am any kind of teacher  ( read: witness). 

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




 
 
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:43:50 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  DAVEH:  ???   Do you believe one 
  can be saved without obedience to repentance?John: Aaah.   My first real question after 
  stating that I know what I believe.  What we might call 
  "obedience",  which would include repentance, doing good,  
  confession, visiting the widows and the fatherless, taking communion and the 
  like, are things we do because we have been saved  --   because 
  we are already involved with God.  
   
  jt: Say John, this is a discussion 
  isn't it?  It's not just a "wise one" (like a guru or 
  something) taking questions and giving answers - right?
  I'd say 'obedience' goes much deeper than the 
  things you list above which are all outward. God desires truth in the "inward 
  parts" and anyone who claims to be saved by the faith of Jesus ought to 
  be walking the same walk as Jesus and doing what he did. Jesus said "Lo, 
  I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy 
  will, O GodThen said he, Lo I come to do thy 
  will, O God..." (Hebrews 10:7,9).  So how does one claim to 
  be saved by Jesus' faith and ATST reject obedience?  Isn't 
  there something wrong with this picture?
   
  That passage in Philip 2:12,13 is critical to 
  me.   
   
  "Wherefore my beloved, as ye have 
  always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now 
  much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 
  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good 
  pleasure." (Phil 2:12,13)
   
   The notion that "no man comes to the Son 
  except the Father draw him" ( a paraphrase of John 6:44) is explained in this 
  passage 
   
  "No man can come to me, except the 
  Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 
  (John 6:44) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all 
  taught of God. Every man therefore that 
  hath heard, and hath learned 
  of the Father, cometh unto me."
   
  --- "work out your salvation in fear and 
  trembling for it is God at work in you both to will and do His good 
  pleasure."   BOTH TO WILL AND TO 
  PERFORM.  
   
  Sure John, but (see above) first 
  one must hear and learn and be taught of God before they are able to 'come to 
  Jesus' and many are hearing and learning from a polluted 
  well.

  There is a sense, a very real sense, that God is a part of our 
  lives already.   When Chrsit speaks of the children, he says 
  " for such is the Kingdom  ..."  
   
  He is talking about their trust and faith in someone 
  higher than themselves 
   
  God is already there.  He created us, He draws us unto 
  Himself,  if you believe that Christ is God Manifested and 
  Defined;   He is the influence that wills good works,  He is 
  power that performs those good works. What we are doing when we repent or 
  confess or feed the poor  --  is this:   we are responding 
  to the God within. 
   
  Both New Agers and 12 Step Programs teach that we 
  have a Higher Power residing within. Are you speaking of the same thing here 
  John? Like Shirley Maclaine when she stood on 
  the sand at Malibu raised her arms heavenward and said "I am God" - is not 
  such a great leap from this kind of thinking
   
  In view of the scriptures above, how could we not think and believe that 
  our actions or God's actions.   I 
  am not saved by that response  -- rather, I am saved by that 
  relationship.   The reponses just happen. 
   
  Really? And what if there is no godly fruit in the 
  life - what then?  For instance let's look at Amber Frey who is well 
  known and in the news right now.  She was raised a Baptist, went to 
  Church and SS but lacked a godly example at home. Still she was taught in 
  God's Word. As a teen she became pg and had an abortion which so traumatized 
  her she vowed never to do that again.  Later in an affair with a man 
  barely separated who had a pg wife she became pg again and insisted upon 
  carrying this baby to term even tho he wasn't ready to be a dad. Then came 
  Scott Peterson and a seduction on their first date along with the public 
  humiliation and all that .. but even before Amber witnessed at the trial 
  she was fornicating again (with the son of this "wonderful Christian 
  couple") and was pg by another fellow who was 'not ready to be a 
  dad'. This girl is obviously hurting and has obvious spiritual problems 
  but in her book Amber quotes scripture all over the place. She talks of 
  attending Chosen Woman meetings and Bible Studies.  She sent 
  Scott Peterson "The Purpost Driven Life" book as a witness to him in 
  prison. Note: I admire the girls honesty 
  and the fact that she was willing to put her life out there warts and all 
  but what kind of a witness for Christ is this? Are Amber's actions God's 
  actions?  Dosen't he say "fornicators don't inherit the 
  Kingdom?".  An obedie

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:22:46 AM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  Looks
like you have most of it figured out John, but as I read what you say,
I sometimes have trouble seeing a concrete statement.  Please answer
this question yes or no ,based on what you now believe.  If a theif
believes that Christ is his Savior, but continues to steal,  Is he
saved?
Terry
  
  
  
Is he stealing pencils at work, pilfering words from another author,
not working as hard for his pay as he could and should  (a form of
theft),  keeping extra change after a purchase, stealing food from a
tryant or seeing good to do and stealing the time of day to do what he
perfers, leaving off the good that needs to be done?   
  
JD
===
Stealing is stealing John.  If that one
is too hard, let's make him a homosexual.  If that is the pattern of
his life and he claims Jesus as his Savior, but continues in his sin,
according to what you now believe, is he saved?
Terry

[TruthTalk] Mormons are not Christians; formerly "Mormon Related #2"

2005-01-09 Thread Charles Perry Locke

From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:24:44 -0800

Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Hi, DaveH.
   I'll bet you are surprised that I responded to this email :-). Kevin 
is much more qualified than I to answer your question, but I thought that 
I would just recall some rather detailed posts I made some  months, maybe 
a year, back. Many of our current members have probably joined since those 
posts. The short answer
DAVEH:   How does your answer pertain to my below question, Perry???
  It does not matter how Christian is defined at this point in the 
conversation...what matters is that before one can become a Christian, one 
must know the Christ and God of the Bible, not the false christ or god of 
Morminism.

  I see in Kay's response the naïveté of not knowing Mormon beliefs. Kay is 
basically right in her statement that those who follow Christ are 
Christians...she just does not realize that the jesus Smithism teaches is 
not the Jesus described in the Bible, and the god Smithism teaches is not 
the same God described in the Bible. Once she comes to a knowledge of that, 
she will certainly see that the LDS worship a false god and false christ, 
and therefore cannot be Christians.

  We all also must come to understand that two dictionaries are needed to 
interpret between LDS word usage and Christian word usage. LDS have 
redefined words with traditional Christian denotations to mean something 
different in the LDS argot. Like Judy points out with understanding of the  
Godhead and the Trinity. You see, to a Christian, the Trinity IS the 
Godhead. To a Mormon, the godhead consists of two gods and a spirit; a false 
jesus, a false god, and the spirit of the false god. Same word, two 
different meanings. Many words are this way, so all should be wary when a 
Mormon speaks.

Perry

is that the LDS worship a different jesus and different god than those 
decribed in the Bible. That excludes them from being Christian.

Perry
Kevin Deegan wrote:
Mormons are generally nice people SADLY anyone that follows official 
Mormon Doctrine
could not possibly be a CHRISTIAN

DAVEH:  Not only do I respectfully disagree with you on that, Kevin, but 
I am sad that you feel that way.:-(

   However, perhaps you define Christian differently than I do.  How do 
you define it so that it excludes LDS folks, Kevin?

--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
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--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/9/2005 6:22:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Looks like you have most of it figured out John, but as I read what you say, I sometimes have trouble seeing a concrete statement.  Please answer this question yes or no ,based on what you now believe.  If a theif believes that Christ is his Savior, but continues to steal,  Is he saved?
Terry


Is he stealing pencils at work, pilfering words from another author, not working as hard for his pay as he could and should  (a form of theft),  keeping extra change after a purchase, stealing food from a tryant or seeing good to do and stealing the time of day to do what he perfers, leaving off the good that needs to be done?   

JD

Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2




jt: I wouldn't have thought that at one time but I am 
now seriously reconsidering in light of all this
Eternal Father, Eternal Son talk.  I had thought 
that Godhead and Trinity were speaking of the same thing
Now I'm not so sure.  If the Father and Son are 
locked into these roles then it appears that some are speaking 
of three separate personages and/or gods.  
judyt
 
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:45:18 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
writes:

  So, 
  you're saying...yes, you believe in multiple gods, but you only worship only 
  ONE God? Or LDS believe in multiple gods and YOU personally only 
  worship/believe in one? Do you think the Trinity doctrine is worshipping three 
  Gods?  Kay
  
Slade Henson wrote: 


  
  

  All I did was read the definition. As Christian is defined, lots of 
  denominations would be included.
  Are you saying that Dave believes in multiple gods?  KayDAVEH:  
Yes.. but I believe we are only to worship one God.  IMHO the Bible 
supports my belief, but a lot of folks have gotten sidetracked by the 
T-Doctrine.

  
   
  Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot to 
  sign it.
  


I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian 
category.

Kay

Kay, I find it amazing that you 
believe that a believer in multiple gods is a Christian. How do you 
figure? izzy

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
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JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

Maybe we could just do the bidding right
here on TT?  Come on folks, send in those bids NOW!!! (Before that banana turns
black.) Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005
9:38 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy
of Me as seen on KPTV12

DAVEH:   I do hope DavidM sees it and places
a bid.  I'm sure he will want to gift it to me for Christmas should he win
itunless Terry talks it out of him first!   :-) 

ShieldsFamily wrote: 

DaveH, I think I spied Joseph Smith (and a
couple dozen of his wives) in my banana this morning--I'm putting it on eBay
for all the mormons to fight over asap!!! Izzy

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

DAVEH:  Oh, I don't know it's all that bad
Izzy.  What is bad is 

that I think DavidM is currently the high bidder under
an alias ;-)

ShieldsFamily wrote:

>Ugh! That's as bad as the recent Madonna on an old
dried up slice of cheese

>pizza that went for thousands. Izzy

> 

> 

>Subject: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on
KPTV12

> 

>

--

"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list,
send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join,
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and he will be subscribed.

-- ~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain six email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me




John  >   How am I 
doing?
 

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes 
in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but 
has passed from death into life." -- John 5.24
I think we're close, John. 
By the way, Michael got third place again yesterday, but wrestled 
his best tournament of the year. He's learning to slow down the match and 
wrestle with more control. He got a bad draw and had to wrestle a state champ 
from last year in the first round (112 lbs last year, 140 this year. hm) and 
got beat 5-4 on a reversal in the third. From there he won out. I didn't see 
anything in the kid that got 2nd that would make me think Michael couldn't have 
handled him, at least the way they were both wrestling yesterday. Michael used 
your advice in his final match and beat a kid 13-6. Almost all of the points 
were scored on take downs and releases. Michael just didn't give him opportunity 
to work him from the bottom -- reversals and those dreaded 5-point 
reversal-to-back moves that have got him in trouble in other tournaments. Great 
advice. When Michael had to wrestle on top, he used a two (hands) on one (arm) 
that Tyler taught him over their break. Tyler had a half-dozen or 
more things he could do from that position. Michael doesn't have it all 
figured out yet, but did a good job with it, controlling his opponents. 
Talk to you later,
Bill

RE: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2




So, 
you're saying...yes, you believe in multiple gods, but you only worship only ONE 
God? Or LDS believe in multiple gods and YOU personally only worship/believe in 
one? Do you think the Trinity doctrine is worshipping three 
Gods?
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Dave 
  HansenSent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 10.31To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related 
  #2Slade Henson wrote: 
  



All I did was read the definition. As Christian is defined, lots of 
denominations would be included.
Are you saying that Dave believes in multiple 
gods?DAVEH:  Yes.. but I believe we 
  are only to worship one God.  IMHO the Bible supports my belief, but a 
  lot of folks have gotten sidetracked by the T-Doctrine.
  

 
Kay

  
  
  Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot to 
  sign it.
  
  I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian 
  category.
  
  Kay
  
  Kay, I find it amazing that you 
  believe that a believer in multiple gods is a Christian. How do you 
  figure? izzy
  
  -- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2





DAVEH:  Thank you, Kay.  I do hope Perry and Kevin will provide their
definitions of Christian as well.

Slade Henson wrote:

  Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot to sign it.

I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian category.

Kay

DAVEH:  Thanx for contributing to the discussion, Slade.  Do you feel
the below definitions you provided disqualifies LDS folks from being
Christian?


Slade Henson wrote:

  
  
Mormons are generally nice people
SADLY anyone that follows official Mormon Doctrine
could not possibly be a CHRISTIAN




Chris.tian( P )  Pronunciation Key  (krschn)
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the
life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based

  
  on
  
  
the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.


---

  
  -
  
  

[Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chrstinus,

  
  >from Chrstus, Christ. See Christ.]
  
  
---

  
  -
  
  

Christian.ly adj. & adv.

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition
Copyright C 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


christian

adj 1: relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
[syn: Christian] 2: following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or
spirit of Jesus Christ [ant: unchristian] n : a religious person who
believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian

  
  denomination
  
  
[syn: Christian]


Source: WordNet R 2.0, C 2003 Princeton University


  

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12





DAVEH:   I do hope DavidM sees it and places a bid.  I'm sure he will
want to gift it to me for Christmas should he win itunless Terry
talks it out of him first!    :-) 

ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  
  

  
  
  
  DaveH,
I think I spied
Joseph Smith (and a couple dozen of his wives) in my banana this
morning--I'm
putting it on eBay for all the mormons to fight over asap!!! Izzy
  
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12
   
  DAVEH:  Oh, I don't know it's all that
bad Izzy.  What is bad is 
  that I think DavidM is currently the high
bidder under an alias
;-)
   
  ShieldsFamily wrote:
   
  >Ugh! That's as bad as the recent Madonna
on an old dried up slice
of cheese
  >pizza that went for thousands. Izzy
  > 
  > 
  >Subject: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as
seen on KPTV12
  > 
  >
  
  
  --
  "Let your speech be always with grace,
seasoned with salt, that
you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
   
  If you do not want to receive posts from this
list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have
a friend
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and he will be subscribed.
   
  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2







Slade Henson wrote:

  
  
  
  
  All I did was read the definition. As Christian
is defined, lots of denominations would be included.
  Are you saying that Dave believes in multiple
gods?

DAVEH:  Yes.. but I believe we are only to worship one God.  IMHO
the Bible supports my belief, but a lot of folks have gotten
sidetracked by the T-Doctrine.

   
   
  Kay
  

 
Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I
forgot to sign it.
 
I would say LDS folks fall under the
Christian category.
 
Kay
 
Kay, I find it
amazing that you believe that a believer in multiple gods is a
Christian. How do you figure? izzy
 
 

  


-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
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JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2









Ask Dave (he cannot tell a lie. J ) Izzy

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005
9:17 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon
Related #2



 



All I did was read the definition. As
Christian is defined, lots of denominations would be included.





Are you saying that Dave believes in
multiple gods? 





 





Kay





-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005
10.07
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon
Related #2

 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:57 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2

 

Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot to sign it.

 

I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian category.

 

Kay

 

Kay, I find it amazing that you believe
that a believer in multiple gods is a Christian. How do you figure? izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2




All I 
did was read the definition. As Christian is defined, lots of denominations 
would be included.
Are 
you saying that Dave believes in multiple gods? 
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  ShieldsFamilySent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 10.07To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related 
  #2
  
   
   
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:57 AMTo: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: 
  [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2
   
  Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot to sign 
  it.
   
  I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian 
  category.
   
  Kay
   
  Kay, I find it amazing that you believe 
  that a believer in multiple gods is a Christian. How do you figure? 
  izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2




We 
have also found that "missionizing Jews" doesn't work, either. It turns them 
off. 
I 
recently spent a day with my boss who is a Jewish man. We had a distance to 
travel together. Some of the folks I work with have been missionizing him. Their 
intentions are good and their hearts are pure; they just don't understand. He 
was leery when I first picked him up at the airport. He made mention of 
something someone had said to him about Jesus. It wasn't a question, just a 
statement. Instead of preaching at him, elaborating on the comment about Jesus, 
I simply told him I was not going to missionize him and he could relax. On our 
ride to the court house we were going to, he taught me Constitutional law. On 
the way back, he asked questions about our faith. He always asks...all I have to 
do is wait.
 
Kay

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy 
  TaylorSent: Saturday, 08 January, 2005 11.24To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related 
  #2
  Kay:
  Thanks for sharing Cheryl's surrender to the 
  truth this morning.  Reading this has done me good :)  God certainly has you in the right place and He sure is 
  faithful.  My brother told me the same - about not wanting to hear what I 
  was into that is,  and I had to honor his wishes.  Sadly he didn't 
  have as long as Cheryl to get it together and to my knowledge never 
  did.   judyt

RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

DaveH, I think I spied
Joseph Smith (and a couple dozen of his wives) in my banana this morning--I'm
putting it on eBay for all the mormons to fight over asap!!! Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 9:05 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

DAVEH:  Oh, I don't know it's all that bad Izzy.  What is bad is 

that I think DavidM is currently the high bidder under an alias
;-)

ShieldsFamily wrote:

>Ugh! That's as bad as the recent Madonna on an old dried up slice
of cheese

>pizza that went for thousands. Izzy

> 

> 

>Subject: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

> 

>

> 

> 

>  

> 

-- 

~~~

Dave Hansen

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.langlitz.com

~~~

If you wish to receive

things I find interesting,

I maintain six email lists...

JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,

STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

--

"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that
you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12


Terry Clifton wrote:
Dave Hansen wrote:
 


What a find  If only I could afford it.  Maybe I could get G 
and Izzy to chip in and buy it for me.
DAVEH:  No need to worry 'bout that, Terry..I think DavidM has just 
about outbid everybody on it.  I just didn't know who he was going to 
give it to.now you've pretty well answered that!   :-D

Lance may be interested too.  He could display it in his store window.
Thanks for brightening my morning Dave.
Terry
--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
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STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2









 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:57 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2

 

Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot to sign it.

 

I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian category.

 

Kay

 

Kay, I find it amazing that you believe
that a believer in multiple gods is a Christian. How do you figure? izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

DAVEH:  Oh, I don't know it's all that bad Izzy.  What is bad is 
that I think DavidM is currently the high bidder under an alias ;-)

ShieldsFamily wrote:
Ugh! That's as bad as the recent Madonna on an old dried up slice of cheese
pizza that went for thousands. Izzy
Subject: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12
 

 

--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me









   Sin will not separate us  --  

How am I doing?

John

 

Not well, John.  I admire your searching for truth, just
not your conclusions. Stick with the Bible, John, not with human reasoning.
That’s my advise.  Izzy

I John7(R)Little children,
make sure no one (S)deceives you; (T)the one who practices righteousness
is righteous, just as He is righteous;  
   8the one who practices sin is (U)of the devil; for the
devil has sinned from the beginning (V)The Son of God (W)appeared for this purpose, (X)to destroy the works of the devil.    

   9No one who is (Y)born of God (Z)practices sin, because His seed
abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.    

   10By this the (AA)children of God and the (AB)children of the devil are obvious: anyone
who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who (AC)does not love his (AD)brother. 

 

Rom 6:16Do
you not (AC)know that when you present
yourselves to someone as (AD)slaves for obedience, you are
slaves of the one whom you obey, either of (AE)sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
23For the wages of (AR)sin is death, but the
free gift of God is (AS)eternal life in Christ Jesus our
Lord.

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me







[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/8/2005 4:53:45 AM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  
  
Â He is 'saved" when he stops serving himself and begins the quest for
expressed community and all the benefits that are associated with
community.ÂÂ Smithson

Â 

Smithson,
what if his chosen âcommunityâ is Al Qaeda?Â Izzy



  
  
Al Qaeda is not a religous choice, as far as I am concern.ÂÂÂ There is
nothing in Al Qaeda tha demonstrates the Lordhsip of Christ and His
teachings.Â 
  
But what about Buddism?ÂÂ Are Buddist's saved?
  
I would ask the question a little differenctly.ÂÂ I would ask:Â "Can
a Buddist be saved?" 
For me the answer is "yes."ÂÂ If the Gentile in Romans 2 can be saved,
why not the Buddist who does by nature, the things of the law?ÂÂ It is
important to me, that one uderstands that IF that Buddist is saved,Â it
is not because of his faithÂ --ÂÂ it is because of the faith of Christ
Jesus Himself.ÂÂ There is salvation in none other.Â On that we all
agree.Â 
  
Does Dave Hansen agree?
  
DAVEH:Â Yes.

John
  

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
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RE: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2

Woops...that was me, Dave, not Slade. I forgot to sign it.

I would say LDS folks fall under the Christian category.

Kay

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 02.28
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormon Related #2



DAVEH:  Thanx for contributing to the discussion, Slade.  Do you feel
the below definitions you provided disqualifies LDS folks from being
Christian?


Slade Henson wrote:

>Mormons are generally nice people
>SADLY anyone that follows official Mormon Doctrine
>could not possibly be a CHRISTIAN
>
>
>
>
>Chris.tian( P )  Pronunciation Key  (krschn)
>adj.
>Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the
>life and teachings of Jesus.
>Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
>Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
>Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
>Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
>
>n.
>One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based
on
>the life and teachings of Jesus.
>One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
>
>
>---
-
>
>[Middle English Cristen, from Old English cristen, from Latin Chrstinus,
>from Chrstus, Christ. See Christ.]
>---
-
>
>Christian.ly adj. & adv.
>
>[Download or Buy Now]
>Source: The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
>Edition
>Copyright C 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
>Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
>
>
>christian
>
>adj 1: relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
>[syn: Christian] 2: following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or
>spirit of Jesus Christ [ant: unchristian] n : a religious person who
>believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian
denomination
>[syn: Christian]
>
>
>Source: WordNet R 2.0, C 2003 Princeton University
>
>
>

--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
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things I find interesting,
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STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
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RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me









Al Qaeda is not a
religous choice, as far as I am concern.    There is nothing in
Al Qaeda tha demonstrates the Lordhsip of Christ and His teachings.  

But what about Buddism?   Are Buddist's saved?

I would ask the question a little differenctly.   I would ask: 
"Can a Buddist be saved?"

For me the answer is "yes."   If the Gentile in Romans 2
can be saved, why not the Buddist who does by nature, the things of the
law?   It is important to me, that one uderstands that IF that
Buddist is saved,  it is not because of his faith  --   it
is because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is salvation
in none other.  On that
we all agree.  
John

 

John, I think
NOT. You say that there is salvation in none other than Christ, but also that someone
whose god is Buddha is saved.  This is very
confused reasoning.  Either you are IN Christ or you are NOT. Christ’s “faith”
does not save you.  (His faith in what???)  Your faith in Christ is what saves
you—not His faith in you.  Who is
worshipping whom??? Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

Ugh! That's as bad as the recent Madonna on an old dried up slice of cheese
pizza that went for thousands. Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Hansen
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:49 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:20:37 AM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  
  
John wrote  > There is a very real sense, then, that
salvation is ours to loose.   


I
agree with you, John. However, it is only before we have once
placed our faith in Jesus Christ that we may lose our salvation -- and
so, this may be a fairly significant HOWEVER that we will need to work
out. I do not believe the one who has heard the good news of Jesus
Christ and believed that message will ever lose his or her
salvation, because upon believing in Jesus Christ, believers receive
the gift of the Holy Spirit, who in the Power of God secures their
salvation forever; the Gift guarantees their inheritance in
Christ. Check out the wording here and see if you see what I am saying:
In [Christ] you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were
sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our
inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the
praise of His glory" (Eph 1.13-14).
  
Bill

  
  
At first glance,  I thought Bill was actually disagreeing with my
statement  --  kind of a surprise.   But after reading and reviewing
the above , it does not seem that we are far apart, at all.  So, I am
missing something, here.   
  
Let me put it another way  --  and with fewer words.  
  
I have studied Romans more times than I can count.   What I see there
presented by Paul, at least through the first seven chapters is a dual
theme:  1) man is a sinner and worthy of even death and 2) his (man's )
problems are solved in and through Christ.   
  
Romans 1  --  homosexuality along with 25 other listed sins are issues
that effect all of us    
   (Romans 2:1ff).  The kindness, forbearance and patience of
God is the soluton.
  
Romans 3  --  all have sinned and continually fall short of His glory. 
BUT
  Blessed is the man whose sins God will not take into
account.  (Romans 4)
  
Romans 5   While we were yet hopeless
   Christ died for the ungodly  (v 6)  {that would be all the
ungodly, I presume]
  
   While we were yet sinners
   Chrsit died for US   (now there is no doubt, we are a part
of the indictment)
  
   By the transgression of the one, the many
died
    By one does the gift of grace abound to the many
  
  
Romans 6 The wages of sin is death
    But the free gift results in eternal life IN Chrsit Jesus
our Lord. 
  
Romans 7  Who will set me free from this body of death?
 Thanks be to Christ
  
  
Man is connected to his Creator from the very beginning (thus, Christ's
declaration of the children  --  "and such is the kingdom of
heaven").   But somewhere along the way, he (most of mankind) becomes
self absorbed   ---    the very opposite of Divine
Commonality.  Along the way,  man looses his way and is need of a
savior, friend, partner, Brother (The Son is that to each of us), and 
Father.   The Gentile in Romans 2,  the one who does by nature the
things of Law without having any knowledge of the Law (?)  --   that
man is not a typical picture of what God sees. God through Christ saves
this man  --  based upon the commonaliy with God he demonstrates in his
righteous actions   --  a mirror of his conscience (or heart)   It is
clearly, the Faith of Christ that saves this man.  There isn't
anything else working for him!!!
  
Those who do have Law, who have been presented the gospel message,  
have a choice.  Some are confused.   Some deny the Lord and live for
self.   Others "accept" Christ in their lives and live with confidence
and direction  --   having received a knowledge of the truth that
others have missed.   
  
Can this person be lost?  Well, not if he prefers Christ?   Nothing can
separate us from the Lord   (Romans 8)  --- Nothing
but our own decision to leave Him behind.   I do believe we can make
that decision at any time.    I believe that we can leave off good
works and serve self, even after choosing Christ.   But we cannot loose
our salvation in any other venue.   Sin will not separate us  --   poor
doctrinal considerations will not hinder our relationship     
judgmentalism on the part of those zealots who claim the name and feign
knowledge of Him will not strike us down.   And so, I am saved until
such time as I care not to be.   
  
How am I doing?
  
John
  
Looks like you have most of it figured out John, but as I read what you
say, I sometimes have trouble seeing a concrete statement.  Please
answer this question yes or no ,based on what you now believe.  If a
theif believes that Christ is his Savior, but continues to steal,  Is
he saved?
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of Me as seen on KPTV12

Dave Hansen wrote:
 


What a find  If only I could afford it.  Maybe I could get G and 
Izzy to chip in and buy it for me.  Lance may be interested too.  He 
could display it in his store window.
Thanks for brightening my morning Dave.
Terry
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Moderator Report

Slade Henson wrote:
In the fourth quarter of 2004 (Oct-Dec), these are the ending numbers:
A total of 5,891 messages passed our port.
Clifton, Terry 334 Items5.67% of the total
Halverson, Marlin7 Items0.12% of the total
Hamm, Laura 63 Items1.07% of the total
Hansen, Dave24 Items0.41% of the total
Henson, Slade/Kay  717 Items   12.17% of the total
Hughes, Jonathan   232 Items3.94% of the total
Locke, Charles Perry13 Items0.22% of the total
Miller, David  422 Items7.16% of the total
Muir, Lance802 Items   13.61% of the total
Ottoson, Gary  337 Items5.72% of the total
Petersen, Suzy  62 Items1.05% of the total
Powers, Jeff   229 Items3.89% of the total
Shields, Izzy  925 Items   15.70% of the total
Smith, Ben   2 Items0.03% of the total
Smithson, Jon  980 Items   16.64% of the total
Taylor, Bill   146 Items2.48% of the total
Taylor, Judy   594 Items   10.08% of the total
???, Pete   12 Items0.20% of the total
???, Thomas  2 Items0.03% of the total
--
What did we win?  Cash? Prizes?
 

Terry
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/8/2005 4:53:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


  He is 'saved" when he stops serving himself and begins the quest for expressed community and all the benefits that are associated with community.   Smithson

  

Smithson, what if his chosen âcommunityâ is Al Qaeda?  Izzy




Al Qaeda is not a religous choice, as far as I am concern.    There is nothing in Al Qaeda tha demonstrates the Lordhsip of Christ and His teachings.  

But what about Buddism?   Are Buddist's saved?

I would ask the question a little differenctly.   I would ask:  "Can a Buddist be saved?" 
For me the answer is "yes."   If the Gentile in Romans 2 can be saved, why not the Buddist who does by nature, the things of the law?   It is important to me, that one uderstands that IF that Buddist is saved,  it is not because of his faith  --   it is because of the faith of Christ Jesus Himself.   There is salvation in none other.  On that we all agree.  

Does Dave Hansen agree?

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:20:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


John wrote  > There is a very real sense, then, that salvation is ours to loose.   

 
I agree with you, John. However, it is only before we have once placed our faith in Jesus Christ that we may lose our salvation -- and so, this may be a fairly significant HOWEVER that we will need to work out. I do not believe the one who has heard the good news of Jesus Christ and believed that message will ever lose his or her salvation, because upon believing in Jesus Christ, believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, who in the Power of God secures their salvation forever; the Gift guarantees their inheritance in Christ. Check out the wording here and see if you see what I am saying: In [Christ] you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph 1.13-14).
  
Bill


At first glance,  I thought Bill was actually disagreeing with my statement  --  kind of a surprise.   But after reading and reviewing the above , it does not seem that we are far apart, at all.  So, I am missing something, here.   

Let me put it another way  --  and with fewer words.  

I have studied Romans more times than I can count.   What I see there presented by Paul, at least through the first seven chapters is a dual theme:  1) man is a sinner and worthy of even death and 2) his (man's ) problems are solved in and through Christ.   

Romans 1  --  homosexuality along with 25 other listed sins are issues that effect all of us    
   (Romans 2:1ff).  The kindness, forbearance and patience of God is the soluton.

Romans 3  --  all have sinned and continually fall short of His glory.  BUT
  Blessed is the man whose sins God will not take into account.  (Romans 4)

Romans 5   While we were yet hopeless
   Christ died for the ungodly  (v 6)  {that would be all the ungodly, I presume]

   While we were yet sinners
   Chrsit died for US   (now there is no doubt, we are a part of the indictment)

   By the transgression of the one, the many died
    By one does the gift of grace abound to the many


Romans 6 The wages of sin is death
    But the free gift results in eternal life IN Chrsit Jesus our Lord. 

Romans 7  Who will set me free from this body of death?
 Thanks be to Christ


Man is connected to his Creator from the very beginning (thus, Christ's declaration of the children  --  "and such is the kingdom of heaven").   But somewhere along the way, he (most of mankind) becomes self absorbed   ---    the very opposite of Divine Commonality.  Along the way,  man looses his way and is need of a savior, friend, partner, Brother (The Son is that to each of us), and  Father.   The Gentile in Romans 2,  the one who does by nature the things of Law without having any knowledge of the Law (?)  --   that man is not a typical picture of what God sees. God through Christ saves this man  --  based upon the commonaliy with God he demonstrates in his righteous actions   --  a mirror of his conscience (or heart)   It is clearly, the Faith of Christ that saves this man.  There isn't anything else working for him!!!

Those who do have Law, who have been presented the gospel message,   have a choice.  Some are confused.   Some deny the Lord and live for self.   Others "accept" Christ in their lives and live with confidence and direction  --   having received a knowledge of the truth that others have missed.   

Can this person be lost?  Well, not if he prefers Christ?   Nothing can separate us from the Lord   (Romans 8)  --- Nothing but our own decision to leave Him behind.   I do believe we can make that decision at any time.    I believe that we can leave off good works and serve self, even after choosing Christ.   But we cannot loose our salvation in any other venue.   Sin will not separate us  --   poor doctrinal considerations will not hinder our relationship      judgmentalism on the part of those zealots who claim the name and feign knowledge of Him will not strike us down.   And so, I am saved until such time as I care not to be.   

How am I doing?

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement