Re: [Vo]:Private information about Rossi was the Ampernergo tests described by McKubre
- Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 19.12.2011 03:03 Betreff: [Vo]:Private information about Rossi was the Ampernergo tests described by McKubre Here is a key issue. Rossi's personality is an open book thanks to his website. That is unique to the 21st century. People who dismiss him because of his personality should think about that. Suppose in 1879 Edison had a kept an Internet blog while he invented the incandescent light. Suppose everyone could follow along with his trials and tribulations and his frequent crazy ideas. The comparison to Edison is a good one. What you forget, are the differences and there are many: If Edison had multiply announced a closed loop flow calorimetry test with all details to be made in University of Uppsalla, then he had done so. If Edison had invited Kullander and Essen, then he had not sent them home without definitive results. Edison did never instrumentalize scientists to support his claims, he had not the necessity to do so. If Edison had promised to give a device to UniBo or Uppsala, he had done so. If Edison had invited the european patent office for a test in a lab of UniBo with international high level scientists and journalists, then he had made this as announced in a lab of UniBo and not a doubtful test in his own shed. Edison had invited his worst pathological sceptics and enemies to the demo. If Edison had invented this device then he had made a demonstration as good as possible and would sell to known customers. It must also been said, Edison was a clever genius amateur, but he never made a really grundbreaking invention. The self excited generator was invented by Siemens. All really groundbreaking inventions where made by others. He made applications and improvements, but no groundbreaking inventions. Even the thermal electron emission, what he has discovered, was finally explored and developed by others. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Private information about Rossi was the Ampernergo tests described by McKubre
You write too much. A lot of citations and it is unclear in which context there where made. A citation from Westinghouse, who where a competitor. (If this citation was about AC, then Westinghouse was correct. Not anything that Edison did or propagated, was a success) I think your other statements are worse. Confindential informations out of confidential and secret sources is almost ever wrong. This is this stuff that is used at stockmarkets to get the money of unexperienced investors. I give you some private information: I got a lot of mail for soon to explode tips after I sent a mail to you, using another (commercial business) adress. All was about questionable HHO devices that are known not to fullfil their promises. This was months ago before I joined this list. Never used this mail adress for something similar. I think you are in this business. You are not believed. As soon as I hear the word confidential or private all my alarm bells ring. If its private, then please keep it private or get permission to publish. If you dont have permission then stay quiet. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 19.12.2011 15:43 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Private information about Rossi was the Ampernergo tests described by McKubre Susanna Gipp susan.g...@gmail.com wrote: Do we have something else excepts a bunch of words ? Yes, data. Do you know who they are ? Yes, I said I did. Please read my message more carefully. These guys are all friends or in someway related to Rossi. No, they are not. Sorry but in my world independent test has a different meaning. You know nothing about this, except for McKubre's slide. You cannot judge. peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: If Edison had invited Kullander and Essen, then he had not sent them home without definitive results. He did send them home with definitive results. They are convinced. You may not be, but they are. If you think people were convinced by Edison, you need to read history. Some observers and investors were convinced. Others, especially those who refused to go and look, said: It would be almost a public calamity if Mr. Edison should employ his great talent on such a puerility - letter to Scientific American from a noted scientist Edison's claims are So manifestly absurd as to indicate a positive want of knowledge of the electric circuit and the principles governing the construction and operation of electric machines. - Edwin Weston, arc-light and electrical equipment manufacturer, Newark, NJ (a short distance from Edison's lab) One must have lost all recollection of *American hoaxes* to accept such claims. The sorcerer of Menlo Park appears not to be equated with the subtleties of the electric science. Mr. Edison takes us backwards. - the distinguished Prof. Du Moncel After Edison displayed dozens of lights, impressed huge crowds of people, and was lauded in the mass media, a professor who had worked with him previously from the nearby Stevens Institute said he felt compelled to protest in behalf of true science that the results were a conspicuous failure, trumpeted as a wonderful success. A fraud upon the public. Edison did never instrumentalize scientists to support his claims, he had not the necessity to do so. He used the best instruments in the world, which he purchased for large sums of money, or invented himself. He was able to measure a vacuum to ppm levels. (When I say purchase I mean he issued a purchase order, accepted delivery, but he never actually paid in several cases. That was his way of doing business.) If Edison had promised to give a device to UniBo or Uppsala, he had done so. If Edison had invited the european patent office for a test in a lab of UniBo with international high level scientists and journalists, then he had made this as announced in a lab of UniBo . . . I suggest you learn something about Edison. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Private information about Rossi was the Ampernergo tests described by McKubre
Am 19.12.2011 15:43, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Susanna Gippsusan.g...@gmail.com wrote: Do we have something else excepts a bunch of words ? Yes, data. Do you know who they are ? Yes, I said I did. Please read my message more carefully. Same what Allan Sterling says about the Penderev Magnet Motor. He knows very reliable and credible people who have seen it works. So he continues to promote it and he is sure it works. He never says he has seen it working himself. Posssibly Allan Sterling or people like him are Jed's trustable witnesses? ;-) ;-) Peter
Re: [Vo]:Kick starter for funding?
Am 18.12.2011 05:17, schrieb Sean True: If Dr. Miley is in need of low thousands of dollars to get to a breakthrough, is there a possibility of using kickstarter.com to raise the money? I'd kick in a thousand dollar pledge if Jed said it would get the good doctor over the hump. Miley is closely working together with CETI ( Clean Energy Technologies, Incorporated) and has without doubt created a lot of free advertisement for them. I think CETI or their investors should give him the money, because these will also get the results, and if true, then they will all get very, very rich. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Possible Proof of Peter's theory of gravity and New Matter Accrual
- Original Nachricht Von: Wm. Scott Smith scott...@hotmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com, peter.heck...@arcor.de Datum: 16.12.2011 00:26 Betreff: [Vo]:Possible Proof of Peter's theory of gravity and New Matter Accrual Peter, your thoughts about matter sucking ZPE and accruing mass may be extremely important. Your theory is a fascinatingly possible explanation for how the Earth has grown to its present size. Scott, thank you very much for this encouraging comment. I am now at work and will read it at evening, have no time now. I wanted to add this: If matter converts ZPE into matter, then this explains why matter exists. If this happen, then it is of course a ZPE process also. This means, LENR cannot only produce energy, it can store virtually unlimited amounts of energy by a nuclear or quantum process and release it at a later point in time. This explains why many experiments only work after a lot of preparations and trials and why electrodes that worked before, also work later. So I think, LENR resesearchers should consider and experimentally if energy can be lost in LENR processes. This does of course not mean it is really lost, it means energy is stored as an atomar or quantum state of matter and it can be released later. If this is the case, it would be a great discovery that also solves global energy problems. There is sun- and windenergy more than enough, the only problem is storage and transport. So far I know, nobody has yet considered or researched this possibility. best regards, Peter
[Vo]:LENR and Cold Fusion from a critical logical point of view.
LENR - Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, is this possible? If we see physics as a statistical phenomenom, then energy is another word for probability. So, Low Energy reactions are low probability reactions - reactions that dont happen frequently ;-) It is therefore improbable to get energy out of them ;-) From a logical and scientific point of view LENR is a contradiction in itself. The acronym was invented purposefully to avoid the stigma of cold fusion, but it was not made by scientifically and logically thinking people. Cold means low temperature, but it doesnt mean low energy. There can still be high energy in form of tension, pressure or voltage. Therefore LENR is not a good idea. It is very misleading. It is very unscientific. Cold Fusion is a better idea, even if it might be not a correct description. Arent there better words?
Re: [Vo]:Twenty-Year History of Lattice-Enabled Nuclear Reactions (LENR) - Hiding in Plain Sight
Am 16.12.2011 21:59, schrieb Aussie Guy E-Cat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VymhJCcNBBc It is interesting and looks very convincing. However, it is unclear to me how performant this is. For example they measure neutrons. So far I know the neutrons from cosmic rays are 20 neutrons /(cm^2*s) respective 72000 neutrons per hour per cm^2. There are also cosmic muons. If they measure many hours, then spurious nuclear reactions in this reactive environment should not be too surprising. These could even release more neutrons, but not enough for selfsustaining. Possibly they invented a neutron multiplier? They should try to put many of these cells close together and see if the reaction is amplificated, and the efficiency improved. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion tells a reader : visit us
Am 14.12.2011 21:05, schrieb Mary Yugo: On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Charly Sistovaris charlysi...@gmail.comwrote: That's in Athens, not Xanthi which is a town in the North. You often bring up good arguments, but the bickering is a tiresome. I simply copied the information given by Defkalion and indeed it's Athens. Questioning the veracity of Defkalion is hardly bickering. Nothing they ever said ever checked out! And much of it, for example their self destruct mechanism and the design for Hyperion power plants that rely for continuing to operate on a telemetry link with their mothership that needs to be continuously functional, seem fanciful at best. This principle was invented by Mike Brady years ago. Description in detail is here, unfortunately in german language. http://magnetmotoren.info/interview-mit-perendev-motor-erfinder/ Peter
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion tells a reader : visit us
Am 15.12.2011 19:12, schrieb Peter Heckert: Am 14.12.2011 21:05, schrieb Mary Yugo: On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Charly Sistovaris charlysi...@gmail.comwrote: That's in Athens, not Xanthi which is a town in the North. You often bring up good arguments, but the bickering is a tiresome. I simply copied the information given by Defkalion and indeed it's Athens. Questioning the veracity of Defkalion is hardly bickering. Nothing they ever said ever checked out! And much of it, for example their self destruct mechanism and the design for Hyperion power plants that rely for continuing to operate on a telemetry link with their mothership that needs to be continuously functional, seem fanciful at best. This principle was invented by Mike Brady years ago. Description in detail is here, unfortunately in german language. http://magnetmotoren.info/interview-mit-perendev-motor-erfinder/ BTW, I have better ideas. I would invent a security mechanism that injects an (harmless) acid into the device that destroys and pollutes everything, so that neither by chemical analysis nor by microscopic inspection the working principle can be revealed. I guarantee, everybody who opens the device will find it destroyed, polluted and unusable. The mechanism is constructed in such a way that any hard x-rays or external gamma measurements are detected and it will trigger. This is an absolutely secure method and much cheaper. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion tells a reader : visit us
Am 15.12.2011 19:50, schrieb Alan J Fletcher: At 10:32 AM 12/15/2011, Peter Heckert wrote: The mechanism is constructed in such a way that any hard x-rays so far, so good ... or external gamma measurements are detected and it will trigger. How can you detect an EXTERNAL gamma measurement? This is a proprietary secret and not disclosed. It will even detect bad emanations of pathologic sceptics by pheromon analysis and self destroy. As I said, it is an 101% secure mechanism. Or do you mean that an attempt to probe the inside from outside with gamma rays? I'm not sure that would give you any useful information anyway.
[Vo]:Thoughts about Mass and Gravitation and zeropoint.
Hi, my thesis is that matter sucks up energy and this is the reason for gravity. I dont know in which frequency range this happens, but I think matter sucks up zeropoint energy and converts it to matter. There was a similar theory that was discussed by Clerk Maxwell and Boltzmann and others. They had the idea gravity is caused by radiation pressure. Matter absorbs this radiation and so we get an attraction force, which is a pressure force from outside. Maxwell calulated this and finally came to the conclusion, that under this condition matter must infinitely heat up, and so this idea was finally rejected. Now, he did not know e=m*c^2. What happens if the energy is converted into mass? Lets use air as an example for energy. Speed of sound is independent from pressure, but it is dependent from temperature. c ~ sqrt(T). If c is speed of sound and T is temperature, then c is proportional dependent from squareroot of temperature. c^2 ~ T. c squared is proportional to temperature. T = p* c^2. p is the proportional factor. Now, lets replace t by energy and p by mass, then we get e =m*c^2. Because mass sucks up energy, the energy density near to a mass must be lower than far away. With lower temperature in air we get lower speed of sound. With lower energy density in space we get slower speed of c. Therefore light is bent by gravitation. But c is always measured constant! How this? This is, because we use c to measure space and time. Distance is measured by an electromagnetic wavelength and time is measured from a resonancy frequency of atoms. So c is constant by definition of the measurement method. So, instead measuring slower speed of c we must measure dilated time and dilated space as Einsteins relativity theory predicts. Peter
[Vo]:Statistics and LENR and Thermodynamics - a new theory.
Lets assume we play in lottery. Sometimes we win, mostly we dont win. Is this a scientific proof that lottery delivers excess money? No, it is not. I think this is clear to everybody, no explanation is necessary. Of course, only those people who have won, report. Those, who have lost, dont report. So we find (mad) people, who seriously think they can make a living as soldiers of fortune and modern medicine has acknowleged that fortune games are as addictive as drugs and addiction to fortune games is a mental health problem like drug and nicotine addiction. I smoke, so I know what I say. I dont play fortune games, possibly this would be healthier ;-) How can it happen, that some people have this luck and win very high? This is because lottery is an artificially created structure that distorts the laws of probability. Possibly the same situation can exist in condensed matter systems. Sometimes energy is converted into matter and sometimes matter is converted into energy. To proof this theory, it would be required to look out for unexplained losses of energy. I have the theory that the sum of losses and wins is near to zero. This explains the poor reproducibility of LENR excess energy events. This explains the high energy production under rare circumstances. This does not violate the laws of thermodynamics and nuclear physics, because these laws basically are statistical laws. This means, under rare and special circumstances a local violation is possible, but it is not possible to win always. The wins must always equal the losses. Best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Statistics and LENR and Thermodynamics - a new theory.
- Original Nachricht Von: peter.heck...@arcor.de An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 14.12.2011 12:06 Betreff: [Vo]:Statistics and LENR and Thermodynamics - a new theory. Lets assume we play in lottery. Sometimes we win, mostly we dont win. Is this a scientific proof that lottery delivers excess money? No, it is not. I think this is clear to everybody, no explanation is necessary. Of course, only those people who have won, report. Those, who have lost, dont report. So we find (mad) people, who seriously think they can make a living as soldiers of fortune and modern medicine has acknowleged that fortune games are as addictive as drugs and addiction to fortune games is a mental health problem like drug and nicotine addiction. I smoke, so I know what I say. I dont play fortune games, possibly this would be healthier ;-) How can it happen, that some people have this luck and win very high? This is because lottery is an artificially created structure that distorts the laws of probability. Possibly the same situation can exist in condensed matter systems. Sometimes energy is converted into matter and sometimes matter is converted into energy. To proof this theory, it would be required to look out for unexplained losses of energy. I have the theory that the sum of losses and wins is near to zero. This explains the poor reproducibility of LENR excess energy events. This explains the high energy production under rare circumstances. This does not violate the laws of thermodynamics and nuclear physics, because these laws basically are statistical laws. This means, under rare and special circumstances a local violation is possible, but it is not possible to win always. The wins must always equal the losses. Best regards, Peter I want to add, I mean this serious. This theory is brand new and it is a Grand Universal Theory that explains everything. It explains why matter exists: Matter has a tendency to suck up energy and to convert it into matter. Because this tendency is very small, it has not been discovered until now. Under normal circumstances this tendency is unmeasurable small. But it can been proven: Gravity is the proof. It explains the existence of gravity. It explains nuclear and LENR effects, but it excludes consistent energy production out of LENR reactions. So it explains what we observe. It explains the existence of everything and it is completely tautological and mathemathical. (All good natural science theorys are like this) It has the capability to enlighten the human mind and to change the world into a better world with more humbleness and rationality and love. best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion Economic Effects
Bushnell had the vision to make Mars habitable. Ok, thats an utopy. But can make deserts green and siberia habitable. Its unclear what this does to global climate. It can solve the water problems in far east and israel and can prevent wars for oil. But this all must be seen with care. Each new technology has unwanted effects. The fertility of biological life, vegetables, animals and humans grows exponential in time when the resources are available. Space can only grow cubic in best case, when we increase our radius. This is the basic problem of biological live and it is purely mathematical. Even if space where filled with habitable paradisic planets, infinite growth is impossible. There is no heaven in this side of reality where we live physically. There is always a purely mathematical limit of growth and if this is not seen and handled with care and with ratio, then it will produce new conflicts, this is foreseeable. best regards, Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 13.12.2011 08:10 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion Economic Effects Cold fusion will solve every major global problems. And they can be defined with two words: For environmental problems: _vertical agriculture_ For political problems: _global basic income_ And ALL known political, economical and environmental problems are solved and we live in the age of Star Trek more than 100 years earlier than in Star Trek time line. We could do this already without cold fusion, but I would say that people are slow, so they need a little push. Cold fusion will render anyway all conventional thinking useless. Therefore with cold fusion new ideas are easier to accept. ?Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Replication News from Chan
Am 13.12.2011 23:21, schrieb ecat builder: Hi All, Just a brief update on the replication attempt by Chan. Chan is an anonymous poster who claims to have replicated the Rossi reaction using powders on two builder sites, ecatbuilder.com and buildecat.com. He uses an RFG connected to a induction coil to heat the contents of a copper reaction vessel that he fills with a mixture of MgH2, Ni, and Fe. He provides molar percentages and possible catalysts. This is rather exactly what they use at Max Plank Institute for their high temperature heat storage system. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/325/pdf Quoting: Experiment with RFG to determine sweet spot for initial heating and then sweet spot for maintaining reaction, modulating pulse rate, frequency and power. Wave shape is important. Half wave sweet spots also exist. Key is sending Hydride ion into oscillations (e+p+e = n+e = e + Fusion) http://www.ecatplanet.net/showthread.php?100-Chan-Method-of-Ni-H-fusion Standard disclaimers apply: This is unconfirmed. No videos, images, documented results, or peer reviewed papers to substantiate. Just interesting! This RFG approach is also used by Brian Ahern in his recent patent: http://www.buildecat.com/article_detail/brian-ahern-and-nano-magnetism-3.html - Brad
Re: [Vo]:Fwd: check out this 10,000 volt single cell battery near end of lecture
- Original Nachricht Von: mix...@bigpond.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 14.12.2011 07:22 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Fwd: check out this 10,000 volt single cell battery near end of lecture In reply to fznidar...@aol.com's message of Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:30:30 -0500 (EST): Hi, [snip] Subject: check out this 10,000 volt single cell battery near end of lecture I see it but I still don't believe it. http://academicearth.org/lectures/batteries-emf-energy-conservation-kirchof fs-rules The water picks up a static charge as it travels through a hollow can, and transfers it to the bucket. Because of the crossed wires, the charge on the bucket increases the charge on the opposite hollow can. IOW the two streams end up carrying opposite charges and reinforcing the charge carried by the other stream. This continues until the voltage is high enough to cause a spark. Nature uses a similar method to create lightning. (Falling charged raindrops carry charge from cloud to ground until the voltage is so high that a lightning strike shorts out the stored potential.) I am unable to view this at work, but according to your description, this is the historical water electricity experiment invented by Lord Kelvin more than 100 years ago. Its a classic experiment of electrostatics physics, and of course it works with any conductive media, water is not required (but easiest to do). The principle is charge separation. A modern machine that uses the same principle is the pelletron made by NEC. It is used as high voltage source for article accelerators. http://www.pelletron.com/charging.htm Peter
Re: [VO]: ENEA endorses the phenomenon
- Original Nachricht Von: Moab Moab moab2...@googlemail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 13.12.2011 21:51 Betreff: [VO]: ENEA endorses the phenomenon my first post ... Mary Yugo wrote As Carl Sagan was fond of pointing out, the more extreme the claim, the better the evidence has to be. Anyone can claim anything and there are plenty of strange and not wonderful web sites that demonstrate the phenomenon. The interesting thing to me is always the evidence and not the claim, especially when it comes to Rossi. In their 2009 book *COLD FUSION The history of research in Italy* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion#cite_note-ENEAbook-14 The Italian National agency ENEA present an overview of the research in ENEA departments, CNR Laboratories, INFN, Universities and Industrial laboratories in Italy. In the foreword of the book Luigi Paganetto, president of ENEA says: *In other words, two government programs ? carried out in close interaction and with check of results ? have proved the existence of this phenomenon in terms that are not ascribable to a chemical process. This must be considered a starting point. The results achieved so far represent an obligation to continue on the scientific path already started with the aim of achieving a complete definition of the studied phenomenon.* Yes, the proof is in the pudding. The problem is: There is no pudding. I looked up Piantelli in this document. Piantelli reports neutrons 2000 times above natural background and gamma radiation that darkenes a photographic film. Remember, Bequerel discovere radiactivity by accident, when he used urane as a paperweight for a photographic film. He also had a scissor on the film and he found its shadow picture at the film. This experiment was repeated many times and changed history of science. So, if Piantelli where able to give definitive proof about this, he could change history of science again. Why doesnt he do it? I dont know his reasons, but probably he wants to protect his secrets. This is always the problem with these LENR guys, they must protect their industrial secrets. So nobody knows, do they industrial RD or unversitary fundamental research. They are always between two chairs, you dont know what they want. Of course they cannot get public funding and scientific acknowledgement, if they keep their methods secret and dont show definitive results. So they think they can do without public funding, then they should not complain, if they get none. My question to Mary Yugo: Why would the president from ENEA endorse the existance of the phenomenon ? Possibly because he is professor in economics, but not professor in physics? What would be is the rationale for that in your opinion ? If you use rhetoric to dismiss the ENEA as competent research agency or to dismiss its president as a loony then I will know that you have no real answer. Thank you Moab
Re: [Vo]:The dark side of cold fusion
Allan Sterling has an interesting article about it: http://www.naturalnews.com/026116_energy_free_population.html The article is very long and I citate only the end. citation: Handing this over to human beings now would be like giving a child a set of big red buttons for launching nuclear missiles. What could be a possible solution for all this? *An energy device that only works in conjunction with high-vibration intention from open-hearted individuals*. If a device could amplify positive human intention into cheap energy -- while not working at all for those with dark hearts -- it could change everything for the positive. Love, after all, is the highest vibratory energy in the universe. It's not beyond imagination that love might someday be tapped as a conduit for clean, renewable electromagnetic energy. Need to recharge your laptop computer? Just send it some love! end citation. So he wants a machine that only works with the right high vibration energy from true believers. I do of course respect his religious mormon belief, but he seems to think he has powers like Jesus. If, then I must say, such powers cannot been monetarized. Everybody who thinks this it is paranoid and mad Possibly he thinks the secret catalyst is strong believe and it stops working as soon as persons with negative vibrations (Krivit) are around. I dont know Rossis believes. Possibly they are fanatic believers and this is a sect and they want to build a theocratic. They think this is possible and they are mad. I respect believers, but true believe cannot been sold, patented and drive machines. Also true believers dont give false promises and lie the whole day long. Peter Am 12.12.2011 22:43, schrieb Axil Axil: In economics, competitive advantage is defined as the strategic advantage one business entity or country has over its rival entities within its competitive industry. Achieving competitive advantage strengthens and positions a business or country better within the business environment and achieving this business advantage is currently the major preoccupation of countries worldwide as well as just about every international conglomerate. It is currently thought by some informed analysts of the international business environment that in the coming age of expensive power brought on by peak oil and coal, the increased expense of local labor would be less than the greatly increased expense of energy used to import fossil fuels as well as transporting foreign made products to local markets. In more specifics, as the price of energy increases as a fraction of a cost of a product, the increased cost of local labor is washed out as a competitive advantage. However in this age of rampant globalization, when cold fusion can produce energy at essentially zero cost, cheap labor remains and in point of fact proportionately increases as the only factor able to provide a country with a Competitive advantage. Multi-national companies will look increasingly to the countries whose populations will work for subsistence wages and below and the continuing race to the bottom associated with labor costs will be redoubled. No matter what Jed Rothwell says, poisoned by the deepest failings of uncaring and debased human nature, Cold fusion could usher in a new dark age of human exploitation and misery for all mankind. Cold fusion will result in a world where slavery is brutally reinstated as the business strategy of choice for the international corporate oligarchy. Regards: Axil
Re: [Vo]:The dark side of cold fusion
Am 12.12.2011 23:16, schrieb Peter Heckert: Allan Sterling has an interesting article about it: http://www.naturalnews.com/026116_energy_free_population.html Sorry, I was in error, this article is not by Sterlin Allan. I found it linked, when searching for his religious articles. But I think, it reflects his strange believes. He thinks, believing against all natural evidence and against the truth caqn create energy. This might be true, but believe cannot been sold as a secret catalyzer or as fuel. Peter
Aw: [Vo]:God Revealed Tomorrow?
So far I have read, they got strong evidence, but not this high evidence that is needed for such a fundamental discovery. They are not like Rossi. They will test it again and again and doubt and harden it by all possible methods, before they confirm it. Scientific evidence is yet not reached. - Original Nachricht Von: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 13.12.2011 00:50 Betreff: [Vo]:God Revealed Tomorrow? Has the 'God Particle' Been Found? Major Announcement Expected Tuesday Published December 12, 2011 CERN A proton-proton collision at the Large Hadron Collider particle accelerator at CERN laboratory in Geneva that produced more than 100 charged particles. The world of physics is abuzz with speculation over an announcement expected Tuesday, Dec. 13, from the CERN laboratory in Geneva -- home of the world's largest particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). The announcement, planned for 8 a.m. EST (2 p.m. CET), will address the status of the search for the elusive Higgs boson particle, sometimes called the God Particle because of its importance to science. Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/12/has-god-particle-been-found-major- announcement-expected-tuesday/#ixzz1gMqOkd19
[Vo]:What is so special abbout Rossi?
There are scientists that report much better results: http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/204israel.html citation: - Run #64b gave 1500% excess heat over a duration of 80 hours with a total excess energy of 4.6 Megajoules So, why do they all stare at Rossi and his poor COP and questionable methods? Peter
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 11.12.2011 15:15, schrieb Robert Lynn: The key is the brass manifold - the heat exchanger is unimportant. But I have not seen the Brass manifold anywhere on their website. I dont think the heatexchanger is unimportant. I got the heater applications handbook from SWEPS website. http://www.swep.net/index.php?tpl=page0lang=enid=168 It comes as an exefile. Here is a screenshot about condensing applications: http://hphsite.de/vortex/SWEP-handbook.png I think Rossi did it perfectly wrong and the exchanger cannot work in horizontal orientation. SWEP has also a software to calculate heatexchangers. It calculates everything, flowrates,delta_t and pressures. Possibly somebody could try it, it is free. Best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 11.12.2011 16:49, schrieb David Roberson: The exchanger did work in the horizontal position. All it has to do is to condense and cool the vapor/water mixture that enters into the primary. The temperature of the exiting liquid was low enough and that is proof that the device transferred the heat. The temperature of the exiting liquid was not measured. The temperature of the secondary out pipe was measured too close to the steam/hot water inlet. The heatexchanger was horizontal and therefore had no condensate drainage. I must fill up with condensate. It could not produce more than 2° delta_t in this situation, because the primary delta_t was 80° and the primary/secondary water flow ratio was 1:40. So it is proven, that the secondary delta_t measurement was wrong due to wrong thermoelement placement. Peter
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 11.12.2011 17:12, schrieb David Roberson: Peter, Mats Lewan measured the output water temperature at two points in time and it was quite low. Review his report. What evidence do you have that the heat exchanger did not transfer the heat? I did not say that. Of course it transferred the heat. This is proven. But it was filled with condensate. The primary outflow was surprisingly low in temperature, so it must have transferred all heat that was available in this unfortunate configuration. I have not seen an example in the SWEP handbook that exposed so good performance under normal operation conditions. Therefore there was not hot steam, but hot water and the actual secondary delta_t was much lower than measured..
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
I downloaded an image from Ny Teknik and enhanced contrast and brightness and sharpened it, to make the thermoelement visible: http://hphsite.de/vortex/thermoelement.jpg
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Yes, I do now think, the heat exchanger should do it in the horizontal orientation. I tested this as follows: I downloaded and installed the heatexchanger calculation software from SWEP. It is unregistered and in demo mode. Registering is free bust must be approved, so I have none. In this mode the application supports only water-water applications, so far I found. So I inserted the primary water flow multiplied by 5, this gives about the thermal energy of the steam. Under this conditions I get secondary delta_t of 5° and the difference between primary out and secondary in is about 0.5 degrees. Lewan reported about 1 degree. So if this exchanger can do it with water, then it should also be able to do it with the equivalent energy in steam. Apparently horizontal orientation is not a problem here. BTW, the difference between primary out and secondary in was about 1 degrees in Lewans report. If the primary delta_t was 100° then this means, the energetic efficiency of the heatexchanger was 99 %. This is pretty good and is probably because this exchanger is designed for higher flow rates. Best, Peter Am 11.12.2011 21:06, schrieb Alan Fletcher: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de Here is a screenshot about condensing applications: http://hphsite.de/vortex/SWEP-handbook.png I think Rossi did it perfectly wrong and the exchanger cannot work in horizontal orientation. I think that the combination of using it horizontally AND with a low team volume will work against Rossi -- any pooling of water in the HE which creates a blockage would rapidly result in a temporary fall in the secondary output temperature. But which wins .. a blockage, or negative pressure from condensation? Any negative pressure from condensation (vacuum relief valve) feeding back into the eCat would result in a lower pressure and greater evaporation. Also, this argues against the input pump blockage -- negative pressure would increase the flow. All of which makes the 120C reading less understandable. SWEP has also a software to calculate heatexchangers. ... I'll try to give it a shot next week. Maybe I'll also try to get the Elmer FEM system working again.
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 11.12.2011 21:51, schrieb Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint: Peter: Thanks for taking time to RAISE the SNR! What can we conclude from your analysis? Well, at first reading, it seems reasonable, so it is at least helpful and might swing the 'accuracy meter' a little over to Rossi's favor, however, I don't think its conclusive. But that seems to be the norm in this case, that the only conclusive thing we can conclude from what facts we do have, is that nothing is conclusive! I APPLAUD your efforts here since what you did is EXACTLY what this discussion group is for... tomorrow you could run some more test cases with this software and come to the opposite conclusion, which I would also applaud! It's unfortunate that some people on this list just don't understand that... No. I can say you, that I did not test exactly the same model, because I could not find this. I tested if the orders of magnitude are possible with water and nothing more and I confirmed it. And no, I cannot do other tests. Say I use double the flow rate, then I get an efficiency of 98% instead of 99%. This doesnt matter. Im not interested in peanut counting and will not do this. Any test with similar magnitudes will give similar results. Why should I repeat it? The result is plausible. Only an experiment with the real thing could bring new findings, but i doubt it. -Mark -Original Message- From: Peter Heckert [mailto:peter.heck...@arcor.de] Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:23 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model Yes, I do now think, the heat exchanger should do it in the horizontal orientation. I tested this as follows: I downloaded and installed the heatexchanger calculation software from SWEP. It is unregistered and in demo mode. Registering is free bust must be approved, so I have none. In this mode the application supports only water-water applications, so far I found. So I inserted the primary water flow multiplied by 5, this gives about the thermal energy of the steam. Under this conditions I get secondary delta_t of 5° and the difference between primary out and secondary in is about 0.5 degrees. Lewan reported about 1 degree. So if this exchanger can do it with water, then it should also be able to do it with the equivalent energy in steam. Apparently horizontal orientation is not a problem here. BTW, the difference between primary out and secondary in was about 1 degrees in Lewans report. If the primary delta_t was 100° then this means, the energetic efficiency of the heatexchanger was 99 %. This is pretty good and is probably because this exchanger is designed for higher flow rates. Best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 11.12.2011 22:57, schrieb Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint: Peter: There's a bit of a language barrier here... I was not suggesting that you actually repeat the analysis, or do something a little different... but I think most readers will understand my point. I dont understand your point. If I could test the ecat I would do it in the same way. If it works I would confirm it. If it does not work I would not confirm it. This is what I did with the heatexchanger software, inside the frame of my possibilities. If I understand you right, you dont want anything being tested this way. And Rossi does not want it. This is strange. At some day, however, it must happen. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Am 09.12.2011 22:11, schrieb Horace Heffner: Photos are from Alan Fletcher's site, the page with the nifty FEA simulations: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_oct11_spice.php If air bubbles are collected at the blue side, this would produce rather large errors in thermal coupling: http://lenr.qumbu.com/lenr_spicepics/bh_09_manifold_001.jpg I believe, there are so many possibilities for more or less important errors with this arrangement, that even a precise simulation or calculation cannot give a conclusive result. Only improvement of the experiment and repetition can clear this situation. Peter
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 10.12.2011 21:08, schrieb Colin Hercus: Did you see in the specs that the heat exchanger should be mounted vertically when used for phase change. Having it horizontal should reduce effectiveness and err in Rossi's favour Yes. It must be vertical. But I think the error should be in Rossi's disfavour, if there was a lot of steam. The heat exchanger would fill up with condensate and the active crossectional area will be reduced. If there was not much steam, it doesnt matter. citation from installation manual: http://www.swep.net/fileview.**php?file=1300709490http://www.swep.net/fileview.php?file=1300709490 Condensers The refrigerant (gas) should be connected to the upper left connection, F1, and the condensate to the lower left connection, F3. The water/brine circuit inlet should be connected to the lower right connection, F4, and the outlet to the upper right connection, F2. end citation On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Horace Heffnerhheff...@mtaonline.netwrote: The heat exchanger is Swedish, make and model: SWEP E8T-SC-S http://www.swep.net/index.php?**tpl=productsheetslang=enid=** 361Type=ESize=8TMaterial=**SCPressure=Shttp://www.swep.net/index.php?tpl=productsheetslang=enid=361Type=ESize=8TMaterial=SCPressure=S The installation manual is here: http://www.swep.net/fileview.**php?file=1300709490http://www.swep.net/fileview.php?file=1300709490 The brass manifold is also from SWEP. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~**hheffner/http://www.mtaonline.net/%7Ehheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Why not duplicate Rossi's setups and see how they work without LENR?
Am 10.12.2011 17:51, schrieb Mary Yugo: I wish someone had taken the considerable trouble to duplicate Rossi's small E-cat and Ottoman (Oct 6) experiments. By this, I mean to make devices as similar as possible as Rossi's and to show that the experimental results KE and Lewan got could be obtained by mismeasurement rather than LENR heat production. Possibly it is sufficient to test the heat exchanger. For condensation applications the heatexchanger must be mounted vertical. If mounted horicontal the heat exchanger would fill up with condensate and the active crossectional area will be reduced. If there was not much steam, it doesnt matter. It could be sufficient to test, if this heatexchanger can handle the claimed amount of steam in horicontal position. I doubt it. citation from installation manual 1st page: http://www.swep.net/fileview.**php?file=1300709490http://www.swep.net/fileview.php?file=1300709490 Condensers The refrigerant (gas) should be connected to the upper left connection, F1, and the condensate to the lower left connection, F3. The water/brine circuit inlet should be connected to the lower right connection, F4, and the outlet to the upper right connection, F2. end citation Peter
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 10.12.2011 22:46, schrieb Robert Leguillon: But the E class is listed specifically as a single-phase heat exchanger. Does it double as a condenser? http://www.swep.net/index.php?tpl=products-rangeslang=enid=352 I dont know, if this matters. Possibly it has only to do withthe pressure. It is also listed for low pressure boiler applications. Another citation from installation manual: In single-phase applications, e.g. water-to-water or water-to-oil, the mounting direction has little or no effect on the performance of the heat exchanger, but in two-phase applications, the orientation of the heat exchanger becomes very important. In two-phase applications, SWEP's BPHEs should be mounted vertically, with the arrow on the front plate pointing upwards. It should be tested, if this exchanger can handle the claimed flow of steam in horicontal position. Peter
Re: [Vo]:The 6 Oct Rossi test heat exchanger model
Am 10.12.2011 23:06, schrieb Alan Fletcher: With the 1:40 primary:secondary flows there's most likely not a problem. And any problems (steam not condensed) would give a lower calculated power (as pointed out, in Rossi's -- ie less likely fake-- favour.) The question is, if it works in horicontal position. The condensate will fill up the heatexchanger horicontal position. This reduces the effective area and rises the steam pressure. - Original Message - It should be tested, if this exchanger can handle the claimed flow of steam in horicontal position. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Das Spiegel Article
Am 10.12.2011 23:03, schrieb Alan Fletcher: http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/0,1518,801836,00.html (google translate is tolerable) Not TOO bad ... of course, they call a Plasma Physicist at Max Planck Institute to say the mandatory defies the laws of physics. This will reach many readers. Spiegel is the biggest or second biggest political magazine here.
Re: [Vo]:Why not duplicate Rossi's setups and see how they work without LENR?
Am 11.12.2011 00:04, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: By this, I mean to make devices as similar as possible as Rossi's and to show that the experimental results KE and Lewan got could be obtained by mismeasurement rather than LENR heat production. Possibly it is sufficient to test the heat exchanger. No, that is not sufficient. Even if you can prove the heat exchanger is flawed and the thermocouple is positioned incorrectly, that is an unimportant side issue. It depends on the result of the test. If it turns out, the pressure rises too high in horizontal position, then this is a definitive proof. If it turns out, the claimed delta_t cannot been reached in horizontal position, then this is a definitive proof. If it turns out, the heatexchanger works as claimed in horizontal position then the claims are hardened. If you wish to disprove these claims, you must demonstrate by conventional means that you can keep a reactor of this size at boiling temperatures for 4 hours, while it remains too hot to touch. Skeptics should confront the facts head on, instead of raising petty objections to unimportant aspects of the test. Thats what I do. If you seriously believe these results are in error, or that this can done with conventional stored energy or some sort of hidden chemical device, prove it. You claim violates so many established laws of physics, you will win the Nobel prize. You should know, I have said it can be done with a secret wireless heater switch and/or with a vacuum sucking out water. Please dont lay words onto my tongue, that I never said. I know that hidden sources are improbable. These are too easy to detect in a serious verification. I dont think, Rossi is so stupid to do primitive and common tricks, that every dummy would suspect first. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Why not duplicate Rossi's setups and see how they work without LENR?
Am 11.12.2011 00:53, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: You should know, I have said it can be done with a secret wireless heater switch and/or with a vacuum sucking out water. I suggest you prove that. Build something with wires large enough to produce this much heat yet which remain invisible when people open the reactor or pick it up from the table and put it on a scale. Trigger these wires with your wireless heater switch. Make a reactor remain too hot to touch for 4 hours by using a vacuum to suck out the water. Easy. I use a hidden wireless heater switch and activate it, when nobody looks. The vacuum reduces the energy needed and the big heat intertia of the device smoothes the variations in boiling. Do this, and I will believe you are right. I will not do it. I dont have money, space and time. I could do it from the technical point of view. But not from the psychological point of view. Do not waste your time trying to show that trivial aspects of this claim might be wrong. If you think, thermoelement placements and heatexchanger efficiency are trivial aspects then you are wrong. This are central aspects, this is where the final output is measured. If you dont understand this, why do you write books about cold fusion? Sometime ago I wanted to buy a book about cold fusion, but when I noticed, you wrote the foreword, I preferred not to buy it. Your arguments are impossible and you delete my arguments and the you put other words into my mouth and disprove them. This is so demagogic and inacceptable. Of course, if we see the e-cat as an unimportant scam out of many others, then everything is important. Without Levi Kullander Essen Focardi, Rossi where a nobody. He would be ignored. I find Rossi funny in a refreshing way. The real mischief this are the scientists and journalists that support him and make money from this. These should all be fired and jailed.
Re: [Vo]:Why not duplicate Rossi's setups and see how they work without LENR?
Am 11.12.2011 01:46, schrieb Aussie Guy E-Cat: This is silly. There was a clamp on amp meter on the mains cord and on the heater wires going into the E-Cat. Power consumption was recorded during the self power run. Refer to the Higgins data. Are you suggesting that during the self powering period NONE of the MANY people in the room would have failed to see the clamp on amp meter showing high levels of power consumption? Also present was the LENR guy from SPAWAR. There is no way power could have been supplied to the E-Cat heaters without someone seeing the amps meter increase. Just not possible. Look here: http://youtu.be/NNCuLAZKvL4 I dont see a meter that seems to be capable to record data without a realtime computer connection. I dont remember if any amperage recording instruments where mentioned in the report. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Why not duplicate Rossi's setups and see how they work without LENR?
Am 11.12.2011 01:57, schrieb David Roberson: Peter, don't you think your statement is a little extreme? I suspect you should have more evidence before you condemn everyone who believes in this field? Now, I am not a fanatic believer, but often I tend to believe, it should be possible. I dont condemn everybody, for example not Brian Josephson. He had recommended some books to me, some time ago, we had some nice information exchange. But seeing people supporting an obvious testable scam or justifying obvious junk chaos measurements with demagogic argumentations does really hurt my confidence into this field. I begin to understand why it is ignored by mainstream. Dave -Original Message- From: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-lvortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Dec 10, 2011 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why not duplicate Rossi's setups and see how they work without LENR? Am 11.12.2011 00:53, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: ...snip...Of course, if we see the e-cat as an unimportant scam out of many thers, then everything is important. ithout Levi Kullander Essen Focardi, Rossi where a nobody. He ould be ignored. find Rossi funny in a refreshing way. he real mischief this are the scientists and journalists that support im and make money from this. hese should all be fired and jailed.
[Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Hi, Where I work: http://hphsite.de/Vortex/AtWork.jpg Measuring Arrangement: http://hphsite.de/Vortex/Overview.jpg Macro detail - tape: http://hphsite.de/Vortex/Tape.jpg (It is worth to note, that a small air gap or spurious glassfiber isolation material had the same effect as the tape.) The thermoelement on the tape has a bad contact to the metal and measures preferrably the air temperature. I used warm air here, so it displays more than the other element, which is in direct touch with the metal) Control measurement: http://hphsite.de/Vortex/Touch.jpg Calibration labels on instruments:http://hphsite.de/Vortex/Labels.jpg Measurement: http://hphsite.de/Vortex/Measure.jpg I post this without comment as is. Some explanations are embedded into the images. Everyone can have his own opinion if this is relevant for calorimetric measurements and if it can be applied to Rossis heat exchanger. The experiment itself cannot been doubted. It is real. Best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Am 09.12.2011 18:59, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: The thermoelement on the tape has a bad contact to the metal and measures preferrably the air temperature. This is not a valid test. You have to cover up the thermocouples. Rossi did not leave them open to the air. I assume that under the surface of the insulation warm air can distribute. Probably the air has the average temp of input and output. The thermoelement would be exposed to this air even if it might be separately glued on with adhesive tape, but not tightly, or if glassfiber was between thermoelement and metal. Remember, for this measurement in Rossis setup there was a typical delta_t measured of 5 degrees. This means, 0.5 degrees is 10% error. The problem would be avoided, if a reasonable delta_t of 30° would be chosen. This is typical for domestic heat radiators and so this would also give a nice customer-oriented demo. rossi has missed this chance. Of course leaving them open will pick up the air temperature. That is obvious. Yesterday when I removed the foam pipe insulation, the temperature dropped 1.4 to 3°C, even though the TC was still covered with adhesive tape. It began fluctuating, no doubt due to air currents. Putting a layer of tape under the TC in open air might well increase this problem. You have put everything under insulation. I see no point to testing for problems that Rossi cannot possibly have. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tests with thermoelements and tape.
Am 09.12.2011 19:40, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Heckert can also test for this with some insulation. - Jed Sorry, its only possible when the boss is not around ;-) We are rather busy now, at end of year many customers must use up their budget, if they dont do this they get less next year... Peter
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
I think it is not necessary to test something that is known and expected from theory and experience. If there is no thermal flow, then there are no temperature differences, this is known from physics. So especially when the measurment location is wrapped with thermal isolation a thermoelement fitted on a tube or on a hose will measure the water temperature. The only necessary condition for this is: the thermal coupling to the water must be stronger than the thermal coupling to environment. It is necessary to think about unexpected effects: It is clear, in Rossis setup there was a thermal flow and an unwanted temperature difference close to the thermoelement. If the steam inlet was 100 degree and the water outlet was 20 degree then inbetween in the middle symmetry point the temperature MUST be (100+20)/2 = 60 degrees. This is simple to see from the symmetry. This 60 degree location was definitely too close to the thermoelement. It is a waste of time to discuss this, because a skilled engineer would easily recognize and would avoid such a unclear situation. It is also clear, a thermoelement must not have /multiple/ undefined and unknown electrical contact to the environment in a multichannel measurement system. Its a waste of time to discuss this, because it can be easily avoided. Best regards, Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 08.12.2011 00:04 Betreff: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe I wrote: Try placing at thermocouple on a hot pipe, in various spots, under various covers. You will find the differences are insignificant. I did this years ago, working at Hydrodynamics. I happen to have a nice dual input thermocouple, with a T1 - T2 mode, so I will try it again with a copper hot water pipe, with and without insulation and so on. I will do this under the kitchen sink. Varying water temperatures do not matter because I am looking for a difference between T1 and T1 (when they are mounted differently), and the response is quick. I have insulated all of the hot water pipes in my house foam pipe insulation. Look it up at Lowe's. It works remarkably well. Anyway, I'll try it with and without that, in air, under bubble wrap and a few other ways. I have different kinds of probes too. I use a shielded probe for cooking turkey. I'll just use the regular ones for this test. I can compare the actual fluid temp to the pipe temp if you like. I'll bet it is the same to within 0.3 deg C. You people should do stuff like this, instead of blabbing for weeks at a time about magic pots full of water that do not cool down. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
- Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 08.12.2011 15:59 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: It is necessary to think about unexpected effects: It is clear, in Rossis setup there was a thermal flow and an unwanted temperature difference close to the thermoelement. If the steam inlet was 100 degree and the water outlet was 20 degree then inbetween in the middle symmetry point the temperature MUST be (100+20)/2 = 60 degrees. This is simple to see from the symmetry. That is incorrect. See: http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/Houkes%20Oct%206%20Calculation%20of%20influen ce%20of%20Tin%20on%20Tout.xlsx I did some tests last night with a flexible hot water pipe tied to a cold water pipe, under insulation, with the sensor on the outside of the hot water pipe. Tying the two together and putting them under the insulation had no measurable effect on the surface temperature. The only thing that affects the temperature is the hot water flowing through the pipe. This depends from the thickness of the pipe wall. If the wall is thin, the coupling to the water is very strong and other factors can be neglected. If the wall is thick, then the crosscoupling increases. If the geometry is unknown, then the crosscoupling is unknown. The easiest way to avoid this problem, is: make the distance much longer than the pipe diameter. Then everybody sees there is no relevant crosscoupling. Peter
Aw: [Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate
- Original Nachricht Von: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 08.12.2011 14:29 Betreff: [Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news-Quantum-Entanglement-Allows-Diamonds -to-Communicate-120511.aspx?xmlmenuid=51 Researchers have managed to get one small diamond to communicate with another small diamond utilizing quantum entanglement, one of the more mind-blowing features of quantum physics. The problem is: Entanglement means the diamonds are in connection, but the entanglement is destroyed as soon as an external influence kicks in. Therefore this cannot been used for communication. If one diamond is on mars and another is on earth then two observers one at earth and one at mars make the same observations without time delay, but they cannot interchange messages. The two diamonds behave like synchronized clocks. The mechanism could possibly been used for a precise one-way measurement of lightspeed.
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
- Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 08.12.2011 15:59 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: It is necessary to think about unexpected effects: It is clear, in Rossis setup there was a thermal flow and an unwanted temperature difference close to the thermoelement. If the steam inlet was 100 degree and the water outlet was 20 degree then inbetween in the middle symmetry point the temperature MUST be (100+20)/2 = 60 degrees. This is simple to see from the symmetry. That is incorrect. See: http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/Houkes%20Oct%206%20Calculation%20of%20influen ce%20of%20Tin%20on%20Tout.xlsx How can you say this is incorrect? Do you know everything, great master? There is symmetry, and so the temperature distribution must be symmetrical. This is EASY to see. If the calculation comes to another result then the calculation is wrong or uses unusual assumptions about geometry and temperature flow.
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
- Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 08.12.2011 17:00 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: How can you say this is incorrect? Do you know everything, great master? I can say that because Houkes knows what he is doing, other experts agree with him, and it has been my experience that the water temperature in a pipe dominates the surface temperature even when there is another pipe or hot body nearby. As for example, in a calorimeter where the inlet and outlet sensors are close, and both under insulation. Or in the tests I did last night. Air temperature and heat conducted by the pipe do not play much of a role. There is symmetry, and so the temperature distribution must be symmetrical. This is EASY to see. Evidently not. If your experts dont see this simple fact, then they are not experts but buggy calculation machines. I have calculated many linear networks, by hand, 35 years ago, when computers could not do this. I know how to simplify a linear network. best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
Am 08.12.2011 17:20, schrieb Robert Leguillon: Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple for two reasons: 1) the secondary flow rate was much higher than the primary, moving the equilibrium point closer to the hot side 2) the primary flow rate is unknown, and quite possible variable, moving the equilibrium point back and forth 3) the primary flow is sometimes steam, sometimes water, sometimes both. If the steam were to immediately condense in the brass fitting, it would impart the same energy as water at hundreds of degrees celsius, driving the equilibrium closer to the cold side. Yes this is true. If the thermal resistance against the massflow is not symmetric, then there is no precise symmetry. But we have seen hot water outflow before. Also air bubbles can make problems. if the heat exchanger is partially filled with air, the thermal coupling increases. So we have other unknown parameters discovered. This arrangement is not good enough to do an industrial test for a gas boiler. Its therefore a waste of time to calculate this precisely, too much unknown factors. These problems can be easily avoided. Fit 30 cm of copper pipe to the heat exchanger or insert a piece of copper pipe into the hose at a reasonable distance and measure the temperature there. Thermal insulation can be used to avoid heat loss, but because the absolute temperature was not much above ambient, not much loss is expected. Anyway, thermal isolation is cheap and would eliminate the influence of ambient air. Peter Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 17:09:53 +0100 From: peter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe - Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwelljedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 08.12.2011 17:00 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: How can you say this is incorrect? Do you know everything, great master? I can say that because Houkes knows what he is doing, other experts agree with him, and it has been my experience that the water temperature in a pipe dominates the surface temperature even when there is another pipe or hot body nearby. As for example, in a calorimeter where the inlet and outlet sensors are close, and both under insulation. Or in the tests I did last night. Air temperature and heat conducted by the pipe do not play much of a role. There is symmetry, and so the temperature distribution must be symmetrical. This is EASY to see. Evidently not. If your experts dont see this simple fact, then they are not experts but buggy calculation machines. I have calculated many linear networks, by hand, 35 years ago, when computers could not do this. I know how to simplify a linear network. best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate
Am 08.12.2011 19:49, schrieb David Roberson: Is the entanglement robust enough to survive a long shaky trip? I recall reading that it is not easy to keep the effect for a long time. The entanglement of macroscopic objects is probably not stable enough. It is possible to slow down entangled photons and store them in a glassfiber loop. This should be stable. Peter Dave -Original Message- From: peter.heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-lvortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:37 am Subject: Aw: [Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate Original Nachricht on: Michele Comitinimichele.comit...@gmail.com n: vortex-l@eskimo.comvortex-l@eskimo.com atum: 08.12.2011 14:29 etreff: [Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news-Quantum-Entanglement-Allows-Diamonds -to-Communicate-120511.aspx?xmlmenuid=51 Researchers have managed to get one small diamond to communicate with another small diamond utilizing quantum entanglement, one of the more mind-blowing features of quantum physics. he problem is: Entanglement means the diamonds are in connection, but the ntanglement is destroyed as soon as an external influence kicks in. herefore this cannot been used for communication. f one diamond is on mars and another is on earth then two observers one at arth and one at mars make the same observations without time delay, but they annot interchange messages. The two diamonds behave like synchronized clocks. he mechanism could possibly been used for a precise one-way measurement of ightspeed.
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
Am 08.12.2011 20:13, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: Thermal insulation can be used to avoid heat loss, but because the absolute temperature was not much above ambient, not much loss is expected. Anyway, thermal isolation is cheap and would eliminate the influence of ambient air. 1. Rossi's thermocouple was well insulated. Yes, of course. 2. Ambient air has little influence even when you use only a Band Aid to insulate the thermocouple. The water temperature dominates. Perhaps if you had a fan blowing on the thing that would have a measurable effect. Yes, as I wrote it is cheap and easy and therefore it should be done. When it is cheap and easy to do then I am a perfectionist ;-) It avoids mismeasurements when there are airbubbles at the measuring position. This is another problem with Rossis arrangement. The measuring point was close to the highest point in the water flow and it can happen that air bubbles accumulate at this point. This increases the thermal resistance against the water and increases the effect of thermal crosstalk. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
Am 08.12.2011 20:19, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Mary Yugomaryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Jed's well intentioned experiments won't help either unless he gets himself a heat exchanger or properly simulates it with a nice heavy steam-heated copper . . . My tests were rudimentary. But in my opinion, they helped a hell a lot more than weeks and weeks of blabbing, handwaving, and empty speculation. For example, people here imagine that trapped air under the insulation might have a measurable effect on a thermocouple. That is nonsense. I knew it was nonsense. I have now demonstrated it is nonsense. Yes this is nonsense, if the thermoelement is in close thermal contact to the metal. If there is an air gap of 0.1mm between metal and thermoelement, then it is not nonsense. If the thermoelement is electrically isolated, then it is also not nonsense. Dont you see that Rossis arrangement was horrible and disqualifies him and Levi and Focardi to do such measurements? Everybody who defends this is in danger to disqualify himself. There was a heck of a lot more trapped air with the foam pipe insulation I used than there would be with Rossi's black tape, but it still did not make any measurable difference. Frankly, I have no doubt Houkes is right and the rest of you do not know what you are talking about. He is right only if his wellmeaning assumptions are all true. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
Am 08.12.2011 20:53, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: If there is an air gap of 0.1mm between metal and thermoelement, then it is not nonsense. I doubt that. I would like to see you prove it. I do not think this would cause even a 0.1°C difference. Can you suggest a way to deliberately introduce such a small gap? Perhaps with a thin piece of paper instead of an air gap? A thin piece of plastics. This is also good for electrical isolation. Of course this will have no effect, if there is not another heatsource nearby and if the thermoelement is covered with thermosisolation. Dont you see that Rossis arrangement was horrible and disqualifies him and Levi and Focardi to do such measurements? No, I do not. I have measured temperatures on pipes several times. As far as I know, this method works fine. Actually Rossi did a better job than most people do. Your other assertions about bubbles of air in the pipe are untrue. The metal of a steel or copper pipe averages out the temperature quite nicely. Yes, this is true. And if there is another heat source nearby, the pipe will average this also ;-) Miles and others showed this with a copper sheathed calorimeter with an air space at the top and thermal gradients inside. Probably braided pipe does not work as well. I expect that Miles and others had installed the thermoelement in an equilibrium place without heatgradient as required. This is correct. Dont forget, there was another heat source (the steam input) nearby. Thermoelements must be installed in an area where a thermal equilibrium can be expected. If you are so sure this was horrible I suggest you do a test and prove it. Even a rudimentary test such as the one I did shows it is not horrible. Rossi's methods were much better than mine. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
Am 08.12.2011 21:31, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: Can you suggest a way to deliberately introduce such a small gap? Perhaps with a thin piece of paper instead of an air gap? A thin piece of plastics. This is also good for electrical isolation. Like Saran wrap? (What you wrap sandwiches with.) IDont know. The thermoelement must not make a hole into it. When I measure electronic PCB's then I have sometimes to avoid, that the thermoelement makes a shortage. I cover it with a thin piece of silicon hose and apply a thermal isolation. This works. Because the wires of the element also conduct heat to the ambient, the isolation must cover some cm of the wire. Of course, I dont do precision measurements. An error of 5 degrees would not hurt much if the semiconductor has 100°. We have a thermal security headroom of 25-50% under worst case conditions. I know, what happens when the thermoelement has good or has bad contact, and I know if I need additional isolation or not. So you need not to do this experiment for me. I do not measure waterpipes, but semiconductors, but the problem is the same. I will try it on a copper pipe. Your other assertions about bubbles of air in the pipe are untrue. The metal of a steel or copper pipe averages out the temperature quite nicely.Dont know Yes, this is true. And if there is another heat source nearby, the pipe will average this also ;-) Nope. Not upstream or downstream very far. The air trapped in the pipe has only a tiny thermal mass and it is the same temperature as the water so it cannot affect things. In an axial area whole pipe is the same temperature, even if there is air in part of it. That is what you see with Miles' calorimeter, which is essentially a copper pipe open at the top. Fig. 4, p. 55: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf If you measure the temperature of a pipe with a great deal of water flowing through it a short distance from a hot boiler, the water temperature predominates. I expect that Miles and others had installed the thermoelement in an equilibrium place without heatgradient as required. He installed several thermocouples at various locations in the copper sheath. They all registered the same temperature to better than 0.01°C as I recall. Then there was no gradient. This is fine. If you heat one end of the pipe and cool the other end, then you get a gradient and another temperature at each location. A water flow would partially smear this gradient, but if you have air in the pipe, the gradient will increase.
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
Jed, seriously: If you say, Rossis thermomeasurements are fine, does this mean that you dont see the possibility for easy and cheap improvements? All points that are discussed here can be eliminated by better thermoelement placement almost without efforts and costs. If somebody does not admit this, then he must be a blind mouse. Rossi has chossen an arrangement that is complicated to verify and to analyse. A little bit more worse, and it would not deliver any reasonable results. So he has choosen the most worse and doubtful placement that was possible. Your experiments will not change anything about this fact. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Will tests surface mounted thermocouples on pipe
Am 08.12.2011 22:17, schrieb Jed Rothwell: If somebody does not admit this, then he must be a blind mouse. I not only admitted it, I emphasized it in my report. However, these problems -- bad as they are -- do not negate the findings. They do negate the findings. To prove a billion dollar invention, a little bit more care is required. This is not acceptable and triggers unnecessary doubts. I pay not ten dollars for this. I use more care and brain when I measure a semiconductor with 5° accuracy. If you think they do, I suppose you do not know much about measuring temperatures. I know enough. This is a simple measurement. Not much accuracy is required to prove a COP of 6. But he did not manage to solve this simple problem. I invite you to demonstrate your assertions with actual tests, rather than words. No. Rossis methods are so crappy, he must proof the correctness. I will check your claim about plastic wrap. I do not think it will cause a measurable difference. I also dont think. It does not matter, because the precise construction of Rossis arrangement and the temperature gradient is unknown. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Yo: Peter Heckert! Is a 0.1 mm gap a problem or not?
Am 08.12.2011 22:49, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: So what are you saying? Is there a problem with a 0.1 mm gap, or is there not? Are you asking me to waste my time doing a test that will not prove anything? I have never asked you to do this. It was your wish. It is a simple problem for me. Tere are two heatt resisteances in series and the heat resistance of a 0.1 mm air gap is much larger than the resistance of a metal-metal connection. I know what happens when a transistor is not firmly connected to the heatsink. This all depends on the thermal flow. If there is no thermal flow, then it has of course no effect. If you have a good reason to believe there is a problem with measuring temperature by putting a thermocouple on a pipe, please tell us what it is. I have always said this is perfectly fine, if it is correctly done. Do not make up reasons in the morning and then in the afternoon -- after I offer to test your hypothesis -- suddenly withdraw your ideas. I spent an hour and a half on this actually testing skeptical ideas. Okay, that isn't much time, and the test was rudimentary, but that is still 1.5 hours more than all of the skeptics combined have spent. I showed that trapped air is not a problem, and that cold metal next to hot metal cannot produce a measurable effect, where the metal temperature difference is ~40 deg C. If you want me to try something else that is fine, but please do not waste my time with tests that you know will prove nothing. You waste your time. You try to support Rossis crappy measurements. Nobody asked you to do this. If anybody needs a proof, then you need it, to support your businesses. I have never asked you. Can you show a posting where I asked? I know how to calculate multiple heat sources and multiple heat resistances in combination. Please see it: Rossi is unable to proof a COP of 6. But he says he has a billion dollar invention. Isnt this ridiculous? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Yo: Peter Heckert! Is a 0.1 mm gap a problem or not?
Jed, if I find the time tomorrow during work, I do the test myself. This is better. I fear your test will not be correct. I will use a resistor in an aluminium housing as a heat source and two thermoelements and two instruments. One thermocouple will be in close metallic contact to the resistor and the other will be isolated by a piece of duct tape. I will provide a macrophotography. I will also provide an overall photography that shows both thermometers and the measuring instrument in comparison. I upload this to my home page, when ready. best regards. Am 08.12.2011 23:17, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Mary Yugomaryyu...@gmail.com wrote: There is no problem in measuring temperature on a pipe in general especially if the thermocouple is properly bonded to the pipe and somewhat insulated from the surroundings. I have shown there is no problem even if the thermocopule is improperly bonded. With a Band Aid! That was deliberate. It was the worst method of bonding I could come up. I improved it with better tape and insulation. It made no measurable difference. Today I shall try to measure the difference in temperature between the outside of the pipe and the fluid on the inside. I predict that no matter how badly I bond the thermocouple, it will be reasonably accurate. We'll see. There is a big problem if the way the thermocouple is attached No, there isn't. and its proximity to the pipe are questionable . . . Prove it. Do a test and prove it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Yo: Peter Heckert! Is a 0.1 mm gap a problem or not?
I have now done it. I did it different as announced, because this was faster and is better comparable to Rossis situation. I used a warm airblow on an aluminium board and Tesafilm for the isolation layer. This simulates the heat distribution in Rossis experiment. It was a full success and I got good photos that prove every detail. One of my instruments has fresh calibration by Testo, and I have photos that show both display the same temperature under the same conditions. With Tesafilm the difference is 4-5° in a 35° warm airblow. But dont ask, I have not much time to answer. This was about 40 minute of work to do and I will upload the images in evening. The photos explain everything. It is better documented than Rossis demonstration. Its now 8:30 here and I am at work. I hope I can upload the photos in evening after 20:00 best regards, Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 09.12.2011 03:54 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Yo: Peter Heckert! Is a 0.1 mm gap a problem or not? Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: One thermocouple will be in close metallic contact to the resistor and the other will be isolated by a piece of duct tape. Ah, ha. Maybe you mean the other will be attached to the metal with a piece of duct tape. That would be interesting. A sub-standard way to attach it. In a proper calorimeter that would be a terrible way to do things. No the duct tape (Tesafilm) is on the metal and simulates an air gap. You will see it in the photos. I thought you meant there would be duct tape between the TC and the metal surface. Not so interesting. I was surprised today to find that ordinary adhesive tape works well enough to keep the two TCs remarkably in sync with one another. It was uncanny. I decided to start by eliminating the bias with the screw adjustment, rather than just pressing REL. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:[Rossi] University RD has gone away?
- Original Nachricht Von: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 07.12.2011 08:36 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:[Rossi] University RD has gone away? Rossi has said the 1st customer is a US military research contractor and that the first plant is installed in the US. If this where true they would jail him for telling it. Dont you see how ridiculous his claims are? University RD cannot go away because it never existed. Only a contract exists and it is broken. If he made a contract, he must fulfill it. It was promised and announced for a much earlier time. A lot of Rossi Fan websites have said in July it is a fact and Rossi got a lot of advertising from it. NASA verification did not happen. Upsalla verification did not happen. He has multiply in BIG LETTERS written, this will happen and how it will be precisely done. International high level scientists and high level scientific press was not there for the 1MW demonstration. Now he has definitely exceeded the deadline. He can be called a liar. It is proven. Peter Why would Rossi need to pay a local Italian university to do research when that is probably already happening in the US and at no cost to Rossi. You did read, in the 3 LENR workshop slide presentations, the benefits that LENR would deliver? You think the US would want to share that technology leap with other countries? On 12/7/2011 5:36 PM, Susan Gipp wrote: A.R. like a wet piece of soap, is a master in answering with void answers. The user asked why he doesn't start the University RD program and he answer that it's already started by the *Customer*. So there's no need anymore to waste half a million euros to start wit the U: the *Customer *is happy !
Re: [Vo]:[Rossi] University RD has gone away?
- Original Nachricht Von: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 07.12.2011 08:57 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:[Rossi] University RD has gone away? It is about which nation controls LENR as it has the capability to reshape the world. As for living happily ever after, well that may be the fairy story. As soon as there is a definitive proof and it works, worldwide research will start and others will find it. If Piantelli Focardi Patterson Rossi Defkalion can find it, do you really think, others cannot, when they do serious research? Its nonsense what you say, sorry. Peter On 12/7/2011 6:13 PM, Axil Axil wrote: Rossi?s fairy tale: The US military is the customer. The DOD RD guys bought the Big-cat to see how it works. When they find out, they will keep it quiet as a post. Why give another country the benefit of their well spent procurement money? The US military will take the E-Cat to pieces, see what makes it tick, and improve on the E-Cat; way more than Rossi could have ever done on his own. Rossi has a boatload of money, his baby is improving and he is happy. All Rossi?s secrets are protected in perpetuity by the DOD, people who really know how to keep secrets. Everyone has everything that they ever wanted and they all live happily ever after.
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
Probably Rossi used some duct tape to repair the reactor. This makes Gamma rays ;-) Honestly, after all was happened, better: NOT happened, such a singular observation is without worth. Of course there might be a strange mechanism producing gamma rays, possibly a welding apparatus or another industrial x-ray apparatus in neighbourhood, but this proves nothing. It is an industrial location and the source of the rays is unknown and so it is ridiculous to discuss this. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Berke Durak berke.du...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 07.12.2011 14:08 Betreff: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Remember that guy who measured a gamma spike while Rossi was adjusting a reactor in the other room? I don't. Is there a link or citation? (thanks) Now there is: see my transcript of the LENR documentary: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg58293.html It was Celani. Here is the relevant part. After various vicissitudes, because the reactor was having major problems, some inner resistors had broken down, Mr. Rossi came out of the room delighted: The reactor has started. Before he came out, a few minutes before, I had independently measured that both the gamma detector and the mini Geiger had hit the top of the scale, whereas the two detectors of electromagnetic interference were not showing anything. This meant that a short but intense emission of gamma radiation had taken place. -- Berke Durak
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
- Original Nachricht Von: Berke Durak berke.du...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 07.12.2011 14:48 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor Francesco Celani is a professor at the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics. He performed measurements on the Rossi device. Sergio Focardi, emeritus professor physics, confirms what Celani said: there were gamma emissions during the functioning of the device. --- 00:23:37 | Focardi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7lAlzMBzLQt=23m37s During the first experiments, when we were working in Bondeno, we were using an open experimental system, and on those occasions I was using a Geiger detector, set for the gamma scale, through which I verified the presence of gamma emissions during its functioning. Focardi said also not much above environment. Possibly there was a dentist or internist doctor or a antique colortv in neighbourhood. Possibly there where suneruptions. He did not give more details, and so everything can be believed or not believed. An multiply observed fact is: No Gamma above environment are measured with Rossis's e-cat during operation. None is measured with 50 ecats in operation. Even if screened, a little bit must come through and must be measureable. So there is no high energy radiation inside. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Mesauremtn of gamma without shielding
Am 07.12.2011 16:03, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Mattia Rizzi wrote: No gamma radiation was measured over background. If inside the reactor there was a 10kW gamma source, with a hole in shielding, everybody had died. All these data is inside the Bianchini report, in January. I do not think that contradicts Celani's findings. Celani discussed Bianchi's detector. I do not recall what he said. (I could ask him.) The burst he measured was very brief. If it had continued for a fraction of a second it would have killed everyone. It is immoral to discuss this because it is a trial to reveal Rossis proprietary hard earned secrets. Celani is a snake and a competitor spreading false rumours, because he wants Rossi's ruin. Rossi has already accused Celani about stealing his secrets. All people who are discussing this seriously are snakes and imbeciles. If there is anything important to know for us about gamma radiation or steam generation or energy production, Rossi will without doubt tell us. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Mesauremtn of gamma without shielding
Am 07.12.2011 19:59, schrieb Ahsoka Tano: Your sense of morality is not to talk about possible gamma radiation that could kill the observers? All of whom were assured by Rossi that it was safe? Of course it is safe. Look at Rossi his coworkers. They look healthy. Why discuss something that obviously does not exist, and generate and spread false rumours? This is against my morality. It is a pity that no observers with real oldfashioned filmcameras where there. If there was a strong gamma burst, they should have had black and noisy negatives. Also a pity that no oldfashioned computer screen was there. This should flash. But wait! Where not fluorescent lamps there? What do these? Shouldnt they flash? How does a laptop react to gamma bursts that can kill? best regards, Peter On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.dewrote: Am 07.12.2011 16:03, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Mattia Rizzi wrote: No gamma radiation was measured over background The burst he measured was very brief. If it had continued for a fraction of a second it would have killed everyone. It is immoral to discuss this because it is a trial to reveal Rossis proprietary hard earned secrets... Peter
RE: [Vo]:Speaking of MAHG
- Original Nachricht Von: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 05.12.2011 02:39 Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Speaking of MAHG The 15 kHz frequency is in the low ultrasonic range, and has been seen in a number of claimed gainful (or very efficient) devices: most recently the Joule Thief or the Stiffler or Kugushov circuits, but before that- Stanley Meyer, and importantly - a number of cavitation LENR devices and Bearden's MEG. Not sure about Griggs. Probably others are in this low ultrasound range. Coincidence? The coincidence could be this: Higher frequencies are difficult to handle. There are dozens of videos on YouTube of CFL lamps operating to produce significant light at 100 times less input power than specs (milliwatt range). In most of them the video cam will pick up the ultrasonic hum (very annoying) which is not evident to the builder, until he sees the video. It is just above audible. I have seen these demos. The problem is this: The sensitivity of human eye is the logarithm of photon count. For example, if you have a LED and you reduce the current by 50%, then, without direct comparison, you would not see a difference in brightness. Also, in videos, the camera will change the exposure, if brightness changes, and this has the same effect. It is not possible to estimate the power from the visual experience of brightness. Without power measurements these lamp and LED demonstrations are meaningless and misleading. Added to this, we have resonance transformation effects, and this makes precise electrical power measurements difficult if not impossible without very expensive equipment. Peter
Re: [Vo]:LENR Presentation by Joseph Zawodny, NASA Langley Research Center Edit
Am 05.12.2011 19:50, schrieb Robert Lynn: It is clearly demonstrable that there exist mechanisms (of unknown type) in room temperature condensed matter to create at least 10's of keV, check out the rather fascinating following video: http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/10588/X_Rays_from_Sellotape/ They should use glue made out of deuteriumcarbon, instead of hydrogencarbon and see if they get neutrons ;-)
Re: [Vo]:Ni producer
Am 05.12.2011 21:44, schrieb mix...@bigpond.com: Hi, The (private?) Swiss company Glencore has acquired all the shares of the largest Australian Nickel producer Minara. This is not a problem. The e-cat does not use much nickel. We can extract it from Euro coins or from others. They contain 25% Nickel. SCNR, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Ni producer
Am 05.12.2011 22:03, schrieb Alain dit le Cycliste: not so false. according to Rossi's E-cat figures, it would consume 25% of annual Ni production to produce the annual energy. in my opinion, according to defkalion info, the powder seems simple. the reactor and the H bottle seems the most expensive So far I understood, the Nickel is contaminated and the powder degrades, but most is not consumed and can be recycled. Anyway, it is possibly cheaper to get the nickel out of recycled NiMH batteries. |nb: assuming it works, as told. Yes. We have seen in another thread here, the x-ray generation of duct tape. Why cannot Rossi or other LENR researchers do such an impressive demonstration? ;-)
[Vo]:Kullander Essen -have they analyzed the unused nickel powder?
According to the report of Kullander Essen Rossi has given to them a sample of unused Nickel powder and a sample of used powder. It was often said, they found only natural isotope distribution in the used powder. I could not find reports about the new powder. Rossi has multiply claimed that he has a proprietary confidential cheap method to enrich the powder with a nickel isotope and this enriched material is used as e-cat fuel. Was the unused powder analyzed and the results published? Peter
Re: [Vo]:Re: Krivit article on NASA Forum
Am 05.12.2011 22:56, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Stephen A. Lawrencesa...@pobox.com wrote: Have you read nothing of how psychics operate? Actually, I have read a lot about that, possibly more than Yugo has. I have also read about stage magicians. In both cases their methods could not begin to fool anyone looking inside a fake cold fusion device. Any engineer or scientist would see the method at a glance. It is not possible to hide a source of energy on this scale. The components are macroscopic and instantly identifiable. Watch this magician: http://youtu.be/VsYDRRGmpXU At 6:00 he makes steam and he allows more access than Rossi ;-)
Re: [Vo]:Re: Krivit article on NASA Forum
Am 05.12.2011 23:25, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckert wrote: Watch this magician: http://youtu.be/VsYDRRGmpXU At 6:00 he makes steam and he allows more access than Rossi ;-) His Japanese is pretty good. Do you seriously think that a chemist examining that cup would not find the source of heat? Get real. Once you look inside the magic trick stage prop, the trick is always instantly obvious. I think he uses a secret catalyst and will not disclose it. At least he lets us look inside ;-)
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 04.12.2011 05:07, schrieb Horace Heffner: That is because Bill did not call them water thread experiments. My mistake, and bad memory. The above wasser.html reference was indeed about water bridge experiments, not Bill Beaty's air thread experiments, which are a very different thing - thread lengths up to 60 cm. Thank you for confirmation. Yes, it is miraculous that these threads are so sharply focussed. Air Ions behave strangely, this was known before. I think they follow the electrical lines of field, but because they are charged, they also distort the field. It should be expected they repell and distribute, but they dont. Possibly they follow only the strongest maximum in the field, this might explain it partially. Now, an electron beam also does not diffuse, physics is often counterintuitive. I have often made the experince, that 50 cm away from a charged electrode, I can suddenly feel a cool flow and smell ozone. With these air threads this is easily explained. I also by accident pointed with a charged needle on an microamperemeter from 50 cm distance. Suddenly the meter displayed a current and this current was there without cables connected. It was a conventional analog meter and had a plastic glass (plexiglass) at the front. It turned out, that this plexiglass was permanently charged. The charges where embedded into the plastic and it was impossible to remove them. Finally I removed the glass and washed it a minute under warm water. Then they went away. There are also reports that air ions can charge an isolated object meters away. Air ions are not necessarily identical with those ions, that we have in modern physics. It is a historical name, Ion is the greek name for wanderer. The name existed more than hundred years ago, when the modern concept of Ion was unknown. Air Ions are simply charged amounts of air and this can be charged molecules or clusters of molecules or whatever. The precise structure is unknown, because the lifetime is only some minutes. Biophysicists and architectural physicists and weather physicists know more about them than chemists or particle physicists. They are important for climate and there are measurement instruments for them. Here is a company that makes this instruments and they have a very good article about natural air ions: http://www.trifield.com/content/about-air-ions/ For example these ions can exist in a positive negative-mixture without discharging and this can be measured. They behave very strangely and miraculous. I believe there is a lot of fluid dynamic effects involved and in fluid dynamic, which is a multi body problem, there are often effects observed that are counter intuitive. best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:[Vo] : Rossi to show e-cat live... like Defkalion...
Am 04.12.2011 08:04, schrieb Alain dit le Cycliste: after defkalion who say they will install a webcam to show an hyperion working http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17t=587 it seems that rossi agree too for a 24x7 show http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/12/rossi-open-to-live-streaming-video-of-his-e-cat-technology/ Note to MY : I agree that this is not a proof. Best regards (We need you like the DA in US court). He also promised a webcam for the 1MW demo and online power meters and this stuff. The mechanism is this: Somebody asks him could you do this or that, could you invite this honest sceptic or set up a webcam and of course he can not say no. So he says yes this is a nice idea, I will do it. So people are happy and distribute the good news over the internet, and he gets new advertising from this. This does not mean, that he really will do it. His Yes is a yes without value. Same for Defkalion. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Energy Catalyzer Wiki : FLAT EARTH! FLAT EARTH! FLAT EARTH!
Am 04.12.2011 06:56, schrieb Alain dit le Cycliste: I've look a gain, and I'm still suspect about using ZPE, because ZPE is only an energy that you cannot use to go below... by definition. There are new reports that photons where extracted from ZPE: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26813/ This however requires as much energy as the photons contain. I personally believe, that hydrogen atoms can be made from ZPE. The mechanism to do this, is gravity. There is no other mechanism to compress ZPE than gravity. Therefore this can only happen in the intergalactic space in unimaginable large dimensions of absense of matter. This empty space is a billion times larger than the galaxys themselfes. Most people are not aware about this fact, because we always only look to the visible matter, but not the invisible space. Therefore I think, it is impossible to tap the ZPE on earth. But it can be engineered and used as a medium if it exists. Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 04.12.2011 13:40, schrieb Horace Heffner: I am familiar with air ions. The phenomenon measured by Bill Beaty in the presence of much water vapor, and having nano-amp current, I think is not made of non-polarized air molecules, but of a contiguous string of polarized molecules. Here is one way to tell: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg20467.html Note: the water bridge lost stability in the presence of carbon dioxide, due to ion conduction. Bill Beaty's air bridge worked better in the presence of carbon dioxide. I think this is because it is the structure of the thread that permits proton conduction, and the CO2 molecule works just as well as an H2O molecule in that structure for that purpose. Yes the CO2 effect in water is easyly explained: CO2 dissolves in water and makes it conductive. The current will increase. This causes breakdown of voltage and electrostatic forces. If the HV supply is stron enough to maintain the voltage, the water will boil and this interrupts the thread. I have observed the air threads in dry air. Of course they are not visible, but the effects can be observed. The air blow, if directed on easy to move objects like hair or feathers or wool moves them. I believe this are threads in air, that are charged and also are electrically conductive. This means, as soon as the tread is interrupted, there will be a strong voltage difference at the interrupted position. This generates electrostatic forces that again close the gap. It is very similar to the water thread mechanism, it is a flow-force equilibrium. The currents in air are microamperes and nanoamperes, I have measured them too. This is more easy to do than most people think. You can easily use a DVM to measure nanoampere currents. Typically a DVM has an inner resistance of 10 MOhm. If it displays a voltage of 1 millivolt, then this equals a current of 0.1 nanoamperes. The instrument must be protected with a neonbulb and filter capacitors , to avoid destruction by HV and to avoid mismeasurements caused by RF frequencies. 100 Nanoampere * 10 kV = 1 mW. This is enough energy to make a considerable air blow. Calculate the mechanical equivalent. I have done these experiments and I think experiments have more evidency than calculations, sorry ;-). best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 04.12.2011 14:30, schrieb Horace Heffner: Some relevant quotes of interest from Bill Beaty at: http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/airexp.html The threads can survive in a zero-field region. I made a crude thread gun and passed a thread through an accelerator ring composed of an aluminum bundt pan. I didn't expect this to work, since the hole in the pain is shielded and relatively field-free. Yet the thread did come out the other side. Once I've set up a thread-emitter, I find that I can cup my hands very closely around the path of the invisible thread, yet this does not eliminate the furrow in the fog. Evidentally the threads either have enough inertia to survive the zero-field regions temporarily, and to traverse several inches of zero-field space... or they need no fields at all once they have been created. Their behavior is not simply that of ionized wind. They act WEIRD! If the thread is electrically conducting, like a high resistance wire, it is never in a zero field region, because there is always a voltage drop along the conductive thread. The thread will carry its own field with it. Its impossible to surpress the field. Let's assume we have 1 m of thread length and 10 kV. This equals 100V per centimeter and is enough to move air molecules. In an air ion measuring instrument, the positive and negative air ions are separated in a 60 V field and counted separately. The thread will carry its own field with it. It is reasonable to assume that a needle will inonize molecules that are easy to ionize. These are charged and repelled and form a conductive path in air that has a current and a voltage drop along it. This might be radioactive molecules or water molecules. The thread does therefore not consist out of arbitrary air molecules but consists out of a nonrepresentative collection of conductive molecules. Of course this can be water molecules. If true, this mechanism could be used to collect radioactive gases out of the athmosspere. Peter
Re: [Vo]:How to make a 100 kV Lenard valve for deuterium fusion - idea
Am 04.12.2011 21:57, schrieb mix...@bigpond.com: In reply to Peter Heckert's message of Sat, 03 Dec 2011 01:36:18 +0100: Hi, [snip] The other problem is, where to get deuterium in pressurized bottles ;-) [snip] That one isn't really a problem. Electrolysis can easily produce high gas pressures. You could do the entire experiment in the D collecting side of a DC electrolysis setup. The problem is, the athmosphere must be absolutely dry. I have seen D2O costs about 1-3 Euro per milliliter. Possibly it works with dry D2O steam? The other problem is, when I get 2-3 Watt energy out of it, will I survive the neutrons and gammas? This is not cold fusion or LENR. Neutrons and radiation are expected ;-) Peter
Re: [Vo]:How to make a 100 kV Lenard valve for deuterium fusion - idea
- Original Nachricht Von: mix...@bigpond.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 05.12.2011 03:31 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:How to make a 100 kV Lenard valve for deuterium fusion - idea BTW exactly which reactions are you looking for, and do you expect them to be brought about by high energy electrons or high energy ions? (If the former, please explain.) I dont know. It is known that fusion with pyroelectric crystals in a low pressurized Deuterium gas works. This has been shown. It generates some 1000 neutrons on each stroke. My thought is to improve the efficiency of this process. Generate 100 keV electrons or protons in a vacuum and shoot them directly in a lossless way into a /pressurized/ deuterium /stream/. I dont aim to discover something new, I just try to improve the efficiency of this known process. Both electrons or protons could be tried by reversing the polarity or by using AC high voltage. Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 03.12.2011 22:14, schrieb Harry Veeder: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I believe there is a vacuum for these reasons: 1) I placed a charged needle 1-2 cm above a water surface. The air blow makes a sharp, mm deep and mm wide hole into the water surface. If I assume, that the air stream originates from the needle's tip, wich is measured in ľm, the blowing pressure and the repulsion at the needles tip in a ľm distance must be 100 to 1000 times stronger. The sudden electrostatic acceleration of electrons and ions must create a vacuum. Is it possible the water hole is caused by repulsion? No, the water was attracted, because it was connected to the other terminal of the generator and grounded. Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 03.12.2011 23:00, schrieb Horace Heffner: Say, Bill Beaty's experiments made it as a reference on wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_thread_experiment Yes, this experiment was made by others too and published in science journals. It must be seen that a strong current flows through the water thread. This means there is a voltage gradient in the water thread. If the threa becomes thinner, the resistance will increase and at this position the voltage will increase and electrostatic forces pull the thread together. So the thread is in an dynamic equilibrium of electrostatic forces and pinching. In some videos it can be seen that the thread becomes boiling hot. Ethanol does also conduct some electricity, also glycol and glycerine. The resistance is some megohm between to wires in the fluid. I believe, the effect is not specific to water and could be done with these fluids also. I tried it, but my HV source did not deliver enough power. This experiment consumes some ten to hundred Watts. Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 03.12.2011 22:57, schrieb Horace Heffner: Here are some URLs related to Bill Beaty's air threads: http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/airexp.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_prcDanfMw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLG8gKb-lyk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKvLUL8f4LU http://amasci.com/freenrg/iontest.html He has another desktop hot fusion experiment, it is interesting, it exploded: http://amasci.com/freenrg/plasbang.txt (This is not cold fusion, it is D-D bubble fusion. It is well known to me that ultrasonic makes bubble cavitation and sonoluminicense in water. If the water is saturated with gaseous deuterium, /hot/ fusion could happen.)
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 03.12.2011 23:51, schrieb Horace Heffner: On Dec 3, 2011, at 1:30 PM, Peter Heckert wrote: Am 03.12.2011 23:00, schrieb Horace Heffner: Say, Bill Beaty's experiments made it as a reference on wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_thread_experiment Yes, this experiment was made by others too and published in science journals. It must be seen that a strong current flows through the water thread. This means there is a voltage gradient in the water thread. If the threa becomes thinner, the resistance will increase and at this position the voltage will increase and electrostatic forces pull the thread together. So the thread is in an dynamic equilibrium of electrostatic forces and pinching. In some videos it can be seen that the thread becomes boiling hot. Ethanol does also conduct some electricity, also glycol and glycerine. The resistance is some megohm between to wires in the fluid. I believe, the effect is not specific to water and could be done with these fluids also. I tried it, but my HV source did not deliver enough power. This experiment consumes some ten to hundred Watts. Peter Bill Beaty's water threads consumed very little power. He used an about 10 micro-amp negative ion generator power supply, at 10-15 kV. http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/airhard.html http://amasci.com/emotor/negion.html I dont believe, he used this for the water thread experiment. This needs more current. I tried with deionized water, but my supply was too week. It should deliver about 100µA. Its a TV split diode flyback transformer driven by a selfbuild electronics. Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 04.12.2011 00:01, schrieb Peter Heckert: I dont believe, he used this for the water thread experiment. This needs more current. I tried with deionized water, but my supply was too week. It should deliver about 100µA. Its a TV split diode flyback transformer driven by a selfbuild electronics. He writes here, he did not do the experiment himself: http://amasci.com/freenrg/wasser.html Lets assume the electrical resistance of the water thread is some megaohm. Then the current at 10 kV is some milliampere and the required power is in the 50 to 100 Watt range. I have read everything about this sometime ago and calculated the expected resistance. A resistance from some ten MegOhms upto 1 Gigaohm must be expected It cannot work if the water does not conduct, because in this case the electric field does not propagate over the thread. Also there is a steady water flow from one glass into the other, caused by the current. Without this it does not work. There are many videos, in some it is visible, that the water thread is hot. The experiment is fun, but I dont think it is a water anomaly. Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 04.12.2011 00:29, schrieb Horace Heffner: On Dec 3, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Peter Heckert wrote: Am 04.12.2011 00:01, schrieb Peter Heckert: I dont believe, he used this for the water thread experiment. This needs more current. I tried with deionized water, but my supply was too week. It should deliver about 100µA. Its a TV split diode flyback transformer driven by a selfbuild electronics. He writes here, he did not do the experiment himself: http://amasci.com/freenrg/wasser.html Again, you confuse this with Bill Beaty's experiments. They are related but not identical at all. Very different linear range, thread diameter, and currents. I cannot find a water thread experiment made by him. Here is an water thread experiment with a closeup macro video: http://youtu.be/iC8KDYcdiUI It can be seen, there is a fast flow and some turbulence inside the water thread. It is a dynamic equilibrium and not an static equilibrium. Of course for air experiments there is not much power required and I have seen and admired Bill Beatys experiments before. And yes, he is right, there are threads in air. He demonstated this very well and it impressed me. Again, this are dynamic flowing threads, not static threads. And if the flow is fast enough there can be a local µm sized vacuum at the needles tip. This is what I tryed to explain. Peter Lets assume the electrical resistance of the water thread is some megaohm. Then the current at 10 kV is some milliampere and the required power is in the 50 to 100 Watt range. I have read everything about this sometime ago and calculated the expected resistance. A resistance from some ten MegOhms upto 1 Gigaohm must be expected It cannot work if the water does not conduct, because in this case the electric field does not propagate over the thread. Also there is a steady water flow from one glass into the other, caused by the current. Without this it does not work. There are many videos, in some it is visible, that the water thread is hot. The experiment is fun, but I dont think it is a water anomaly. Peter Sigh. There was a huge amount of discussion of this on vortex-l. Is see no reason to repeat it. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Another video (62 minutes) about the water thread experiment: http://youtu.be/N1At3Gcd-No Its from SETI and demonstrates the science behind. It coveres everything from flow to conductivity to bubbles to thermographic measurements and heavy water experiments. Very interesting are the Schlieren photograpy demos where the water flow is made visible. Peter
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 04.12.2011 01:16, schrieb Peter Heckert: Another video (62 minutes) about the water thread experiment: http://youtu.be/N1At3Gcd-No Its from SETI and demonstrates the science behind. It coveres everything from flow to conductivity to bubbles to thermographic measurements and heavy water experiments. Very interesting are the Schlieren photograpy demos where the water flow is made visible. Here is the same experiment, made with castor oil. http://youtu.be/rxBGEdT8ygE This proves, it is not a water anomaly. Remarkable is, they use 25 kV and the current is about 0.02 µA. This gives 0.5 milliWatt. Oil isolates quite well. So this should be possible at home.
Re: [Vo]:desktop hot fusion concept
Am 04.12.2011 01:41, schrieb Horace Heffner: This is about the water bridge experiment, not Bill Beaty's water thread experiments. His fine threads extended multiple times the length of the water bridge, and were sustained indefinitely, with orders of magnitude less current. Read the archive references. Possibly there is a misunderstandment. I have seen many of his experiments, especially the experiment with dry ice nebula on a water surface. It is clearly visible that a stream of focussed air ions flow to the water surface and draws traces into the steam. Air ions make the nebula coagulate and vanish, this makes them visible. I would however call this air threads, and not water threads. There are focussed and laminar threads of ions flowing in air and this demonstration really impressed me. I have seen this last year or earlier. I have read everything about air ions, that I could get at this time and discovered his site also. I have not found any water thread experiments made by him, sorry. If there is something else, a pointer would be welcome. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Prepares
minimum COP is 25 so far I remember. Details are here: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/HyperionSpecsSheetNovember2011.pdf This is now on their website under products. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 30.11.2011 15:30 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Prepares Is the unit basically a small furnace, perhaps to heat a few rooms or water? What's the COP on this configuration? I haven't been able to determine that yet. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Hyperion Hyperlink
Am 30.11.2011 16:52, schrieb Mary Yugo: I knew they were coming out with something sexy. It has a pleasure sensor! I kid you not: http://i.imgur.com/X8AZQ.jpg Remembers me of good old Amiga which had a BEER line connected to the processor.
Re: [Vo]:A bit of humor at Rossi's expense
Am 29.11.2011 18:15, schrieb Mary Yugo: If you're easily offended, just skip it. http://www.moletrap.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Rossicaptions Wanted to upload this but cannot find a way to register... attachment: ColdFusion3.jpeg
Re: [Vo]:A bit of humor at Rossi's expense
Am 30.11.2011 22:51, schrieb Mary Yugo: On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de mailto:peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: http://www.moletrap.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Rossicaptions Wanted to upload this but cannot find a way to register... Hi Peter, If you want to join the moletrap forum, please go to http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/ and ask to join. Everyone is admitted. Even Craig Brown! I don't have posting privileges for the moletrap wiki (never needed it) but I asked someone else to post your contribution. Thanks for it. Thanks, its fun ;-)
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula?
If this is true they are gangsters and Rossi has my full support. And also at University of Siena they have gangsters, if this is true. This doesnt shed a good light on their previous work for Piantelli. Possibly they are all gangsters, and this all is a horrible soap opera. Could be, nothing is true and nothing works and they want to spread rumours. I wonder what they really will announce tomorrow. My prediction is, they announce a revolutianry product that will be presented soon. Or they announce they got the process now running with a stable COP, what Miley announced 1996 and announced it 2011 again. ;-) All serious cold fusion companies do this from time to time, some do it succesful for 20 years now. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 29.11.2011 12:14 Betreff: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula? Hello group, Have a read at this article posted today on NyTeknik. It's about the backstage of tomorrow's Defkalion Announcement: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece A short excerpt: ?Let?s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I?m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months.? That is what Alexandros Xanthoulis, representative of Defkalion?s owners, told Ny Teknik in a telephone conversation on August 5, 2011. ?I know what he?s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (...) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,? he continued. It's quite interesting, to say the least, that the University of Siena was involved in this, assuming what Xanthoulis said is true. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula?
If it is true, then it is a case of scientific fraud and industrial spionage. If its untrue and they all collaborate behind the scenes, then ist is a gigantic staged investment fraud. In both cases it is a case for Interpol. For now I think they are all gangsters working together behind the scenes until something else is proven. This case could have been avoided. Rossi could easily claim priority if he had done a conclusive irrefutable calorimetry test, e.g. a realworld heating application that was measured by scientists and trustable witnesses. He had serious proposals and offers enough. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 29.11.2011 13:22 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula? Others have openly admitted in trying to get a spectrum. And joked about it how Rossi got angry at them for trying it on. Like it had no value. Almost suggesting Rossi had no right to withhold it from science. If true I do hope he sues the University and all involved for everything they have. If proven it may well be the biggest theft in the history of science, at least as far as I know. Most academics I know of have no real sense of commercial value or commercial confidentiality. They live in a world where you publish or perish. That is my personal experience. AG On 11/29/2011 10:31 PM, peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: If this is true they are gangsters and Rossi has my full support. And also at University of Siena they have gangsters, if this is true. This doesnt shed a good light on their previous work for Piantelli. Possibly they are all gangsters, and this all is a horrible soap opera. Could be, nothing is true and nothing works and they want to spread rumours. I wonder what they really will announce tomorrow. My prediction is, they announce a revolutianry product that will be presented soon. Or they announce they got the process now running with a stable COP, what Miley announced 1996 and announced it 2011 again. ;-) All serious cold fusion companies do this from time to time, some do it succesful for 20 years now. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Akira Shirakawashirakawa.ak...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 29.11.2011 12:14 Betreff: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula? Hello group, Have a read at this article posted today on NyTeknik. It's about the backstage of tomorrow's Defkalion Announcement: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece A short excerpt: ?Let?s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I?m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months.? That is what Alexandros Xanthoulis, representative of Defkalion?s owners, told Ny Teknik in a telephone conversation on August 5, 2011. ?I know what he?s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (...) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,? he continued. It's quite interesting, to say the least, that the University of Siena was involved in this, assuming what Xanthoulis said is true. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula?
I have no problems with that was done. I have problems with additional tests that where not done. Kullander Essen's trip was payed by Rossi and they where friendly treated by the italian scientists. So they dont believe or say there was fraud and this is understandable. But they do admit, they did not got enough evidency to exclude fraud by measured facts. This is Rossi's fault. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 29.11.2011 13:55 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula? I have no problems with the test the 2 Swedish physicists, Levi. Focardi and a hand full of other academics did. AG On 11/29/2011 11:12 PM, peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: If it is true, then it is a case of scientific fraud and industrial spionage. If its untrue and they all collaborate behind the scenes, then ist is a gigantic staged investment fraud. In both cases it is a case for Interpol. For now I think they are all gangsters working together behind the scenes until something else is proven. This case could have been avoided. Rossi could easily claim priority if he had done a conclusive irrefutable calorimetry test, e.g. a realworld heating application that was measured by scientists and trustable witnesses. He had serious proposals and offers enough. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula?
- Original Nachricht Von: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 29.11.2011 14:11 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula? We don't know how much of Piantelli's patents Rossi used anyway. Send both to jail? :) As long as he doesnt sell unlicensed products he can use as much patents as he wants. Mike Bradys satisfied secret customers where never revealed because he protected them, and so are Rossi's. Proof is impossible. ;-)
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula?
I am rather sure there is no radiation to measure and so there is no spectrum to measure and there is nothing to steal. They play a collaborative soap opera behind the scenes, where they all win investors. Everybody who has money invested in Piantelli, Defkalion or Rossi's business should go to police. A calorimetry test with a connected heater radiator can be done in Rossis lab. The input power can be measured in Rossis lab. Only heat measurements, no radioactive radiation must be measured. Or even simpler, Rossi could release the steam out of the window and not into a wall outlet. Its so simple, why havent they done it? - Original Nachricht Von: Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 29.11.2011 14:15 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion: ?We have Rossi?s formula? They acted like scientists do. We are not certain. We need to do more tests, which you can pay us for. Oh and by the way we need to do those tests in private so we can get the radiation spectrum and figure out that you have inside. I'm like Rossi, an engineer and I don't give a C**P what is inside or how it works as long as it works, which I'm 100% sure it does. AG On 11/29/2011 11:37 PM, peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have no problems with that was done. I have problems with additional tests that where not done. Kullander Essen's trip was payed by Rossi and they where friendly treated by the italian scientists. So they dont believe or say there was fraud and this is understandable. But they do admit, they did not got enough evidency to exclude fraud by measured facts. This is Rossi's fault. Peter
Re: [Vo]:A bit of humor at Rossi's expense
Am 29.11.2011 18:15, schrieb Mary Yugo: If you're easily offended, just skip it. http://www.moletrap.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Rossicaptions Here's another one to load up: attachment: ColdFusion2.jpeg
Re: [Vo]:Piantelli's amazing claims
Am 29.11.2011 20:38, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Piantelli has loads of academic credibility. He is been supported for many years by an Italian automobile manufacturer. I wish I could recall which one. So far I have read this was Fiat Avio SpA, which was Fiat's aviation business. They sold it some time ago. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Toyota announces plug-in hybrid sales
Am 29.11.2011 21:05, schrieb mix...@bigpond.com: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 29 Nov 2011 14:50:06 -0500: Hi, [snip] See (in Japanese): http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/atmoney/news/2029-OYT1T00943.htm Summary: Sales will begin January 30, 2012. Minimum sales price will be ¥3,200,000 ($41,000). after government rebates it comes to ¥2,750,000. it takes roughly 3 hours to recharge. The range on batteries alone is 26.4 km. Efficiency is 60.1 km per liter (141 mpg), compared to an ordinary Prius which gets 32.6 km per liter (77 mpg). (Those efficiency ratings sound too high to me.) They are probably based on the notion that a larger percentage of driving will be pure electric, thus decreasing the amount of gasoline consumed during any given trip. I think this 26 km distance is worst case. Their system can use the energy released during braking to recharge the batteries and this does substantially reduce fuel consumption. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Elevated-temperature excess heat production in a Pd D system in 1991
- Original Nachricht Von: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 28.11.2011 09:15 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Elevated-temperature excess heat production in a Pd D system in 1991 PeterH, as far I remember the Liaw et al paper is published in the Proceedings of ICCF-2. I have donated my CF library to my friend the journalist Haiko Lietz who lives in Germany, I hope you know him personally. I think the I am not an insider. If I had any possibility to repeat such an experiment I would do it. Unfortunately I have not. Also I have not too much hope for success. Detecting radiation or transmutation is totally beyond my possibilities. Temperature differences are not an irrrefutable proof. Hydrogen adsorption is exothermic and in an hydrogen saturated material there are heatpipe effects. Also thermal conductivity changes with current flow. Also gases leak out or recombine. If there is a lot of corrosion this means there are additional exothermic chemical processes. So, without a long time calorimetric proof, there is nothing proven. above Proceedings are at him and he can send you a copy. As regarding your assertion that technical problems can be solved- the problem is cost and price- at what price with which efforts. Liaw system was interesting- Pd is anode. PeterG On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 9:44 AM, peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: - Original Nachricht Von: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 28.11.2011 06:19 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Elevated-temperature excess heat production in a Pd D system in 1991 I spoke with Liaw at ICCF-2 Como 1991. The system had very great problems of corrosion. Rule No. 6 of problem solving says: NOT the main desired positive effect, but those secondary negative and/or undesired effects decide in most cases if a solution is implemented. It seems corrosion was so severe that this way was abandoned.. Technical problems are not important, these are almost ever solvable if the reward is high. History has shown this. We are on moon now, and everybody has a mobile phone and we have GPS and Laser. Impossible? So, why dont they publish their findings? Possibly others find a solution. It would be important to have a key experiment that is repeatable and that works. There is an unfortunate mechanism: First they publish success. This is is euphorical accepted by the LENR community and makes the way into their collection of papers. Then they continue their research and find unexpected problems or find errors. They give up. Of course this is not published. This is why there are so many positive results. This is also the mechanism why there are so many positive results about UFO's and unicorns. ;-) It seems most documented LENR successes are of this type: Unfinished stories about an anticipated success that never was tested and confirmed beyond all doubts. Peter Peter *(* http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2011/06/super-rule-included-complete-list-o f.html * * * * On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:01 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: It was in the 1990 paper : - Original Message - Liebert's still around : http://newenergytimes.com/v2/archives/fic/F/F199010.PDF 1990 : EXCESS HEAT USING MOLTEN-SALT ELECTROCHEMICAL CELL By Professors Liaw, Tao, Turner, Liebert As an example shown in the last entry in TABLE I, the power to the heating tape was maintained at about 69.25 W, the cell potential was typically in the range of 2.45 V, and the electrochemical input power was about 1.68 W at 692 mA/cm2 for a total input power of about 70.9W. We would expect 1.68 Wof joule heating to result in a 5.1 °C increase in temperature; however, the temperature increased by 82.4° C, which corresponds to a gain of about 27.1 W, according to the calibration curve. Therefore, a net gain of 25.4Wwas in excess, which results in an excess power gain of 1512 percent, in the range of 627 W/cm3 Pd. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Elevated-temperature excess heat production in a Pd D system in 1991
I think, this says all. This guy is a professional electrochemist and without doubt he has 1000fold more possibilities than I. If he gave up, he has doubts himself. If there is a serious chance for success others should try it, who have a laboratory. Patents dont hinder scientific research and experiments in any way. If somebody finds methods to handle the corrosion he could make additional patents. This guy found a lot of corrosion that whas not seen or reported before. This means, he found unexpected chemical sources of energy that possibly invalidate previous results and he has not published it. He is scientist and if he would see a chance for an irrefutable scientific proof he would (and should) do this himself. This is what I think about it. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 28.11.2011 09:42 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Elevated-temperature excess heat production in a Pd D system in 1991 Alternatively you could ask the main author- he is still active/young: http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/template2.asp?userID=bliaw He has continued the work, after Pd with Ni but this was also abandoned. PeterG On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:34 AM, peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: It was in the 1990 paper : - Original Message - Liebert's still around : http://newenergytimes.com/v2/archives/fic/F/F199010.PDF 1990 : EXCESS HEAT USING MOLTEN-SALT ELECTROCHEMICAL CELL By Professors Liaw, Tao, Turner, Liebert As an example shown in the last entry in TABLE I, the power to the heating tape was maintained at about 69.25 W, the cell potential was typically in the range of 2.45 V, and the electrochemical input power was about 1.68 W at 692 mA/cm2 for a total input power of about 70.9W. We would expect 1.68 Wof joule heating to result in a 5.1 °C increase in temperature; however, the temperature increased by 82.4° C, which corresponds to a gain of about 27.1 W, according to the calibration curve. Therefore, a net gain of 25.4Wwas in excess, which results in an excess power gain of 1512 percent, in the range of 627 W/cm3 Pd. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
