Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
Am 19.02.2010 00:02, schrieb Safety Off: I don't think there is any point using it currently, simply because the user doesn't have enough control over the orientation/movement of the droids and their formations. I think that when droids turn they will expose their weaker side by no fault of the player, this will likely be more frustrating than anything else. Cheers, -Safety0ff I'm with i-NoD to keep this code and make it useable (at least in future). Right now, most fighting is just who has the best upgrades instead of unit tactics. Making flanking more attractive would add a lot of competition to warzone. And about the unit movement code, I guess we really need an update there, to implement such features as retreat (Moving backwards, which might be slower then driving forards, but it faces the good armor side to the enemy) and real formations. - Kamaze ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 5:20 AM, NoName fearthec...@gmail.com wrote: I'm with i-NoD to keep this code and make it useable (at least in future). Right now, most fighting is just who has the best upgrades instead of unit tactics. Making flanking more attractive would add a lot of competition to warzone. And about the unit movement code, I guess we really need an update there, to implement such features as retreat (Moving backwards, which might be slower then driving forards, but it faces the good armor side to the enemy) and real formations. I don't know, seems like too much tactics. Our movement code is horrible; making fine-grained control of units necessary would suck for everyone... OTOH, I'd prefer not to change the mod format that much, so I'd vote to keep everything the way it is (lots of fixes to movement code notwithstanding). -Zarel ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
Am 19.02.2010 12:27, schrieb Zarel: I don't know, seems like too much tactics. Our movement code is horrible; making fine-grained control of units necessary would suck for everyone... OTOH, I'd prefer not to change the mod format that much, so I'd vote to keep everything the way it is (lots of fixes to movement code notwithstanding). -Zarel I'm not talking necessarily about a fine graded single unit micromanagement, but more about a better group behaviour. World in Conflict is a very good example from my point of view. It just has 2 possible formations, a straight line and a simple quad. If you move units, you can also set easily where to face, by simply holding the mose button and then drag into the direction where to look. If you drag farther, the formation will be more loosely. It's somewhat simple and intuitive. Also a better group select would help a lot. Last but not least we still have _much_ potential using commanders. Using this, you could at lleast take down some havy tanks when attacking intelligent with weaker units. - Kamaze ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
Per Inge Mathisen wrote: Hello, In my effort to clean up the basic engine definitions, I would like remove the armour hit sides. This was added a while ago by Watermelon, and to my best knowledge it has never been used for anything useful or interesting, nor do players keep this in mind while playing or make use of it while micromanaging their units. It does, however, waste some memory for each game object, and we could get rid of some code complexity by removing this feature. So unless anyone complains, I will rip it out. I am all for removing it: 1. Too complex. 2. GUI not up to show people this. 3. Control over units not good enough to use the knowledge. 4. Even more stuff to consider when balancing (similar to too complex). 5. There already is enough variation/tactics in Warzone 2100. Less is more. - Kreuvf signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
I am all for removing it: 1. Too complex. 2. GUI not up to show people this. 3. Control over units not good enough to use the knowledge. 4. Even more stuff to consider when balancing (similar to too complex). 5. There already is enough variation/tactics in Warzone 2100. Less is more. - Kreuvf I still wonder what is s complex in this code? Could someone give me a hint, please? Yes, there is a usability problem due to 2 and 3, but I think those could be changed/fixed. I'm more then willing to make some improvements to current GUI (as I'm not much in betawidget stuff) and could start right from this task. I don't ask to change current stats/tactics model, I just want to allow some productive persons to use this feature in their mods and maps and invite some new tactics to gameplay - as more alternatives is not always bad (this will solve 4 and 5 for core game if you wish). I don't know for sure, but maybe a majority of modders/people aren't aware of the feature? We could re-announce it and just to see if it will interest someone. We could always remove it if not... just give another chance. i-NoD ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
i-NoD wrote: I am all for removing it: 1. Too complex. 2. GUI not up to show people this. 3. Control over units not good enough to use the knowledge. 4. Even more stuff to consider when balancing (similar to too complex). 5. There already is enough variation/tactics in Warzone 2100. Less is more. - Kreuvf I still wonder what is s complex in this code? Could someone give me a hint, please? I do not mean code-complexity. It's the gameplay itself that's getting too complex IMHO. There is enough stuff in the game that you have to worry about. Yes, there is a usability problem due to 2 and 3, but I think those could be changed/fixed. I'm more then willing to make some improvements to current GUI (as I'm not much in betawidget stuff) and could start right from this task. I don't ask to change current stats/tactics model, I just want to allow some productive persons to use this feature in their mods and maps and invite some new tactics to gameplay - as more alternatives is not always bad (this will solve 4 and 5 for core game if you wish). I don't know for sure, but maybe a majority of modders/people aren't aware of the feature? We could re-announce it and just to see if it will interest someone. We could always remove it if not... just give another chance. Some time ago Per posted his experiences from that Freeciv and IIRC one of the interesting things was: Don't make things for modders only/add only stuff that _you_ want to have in the game and that _you_ use. Per will be able to correct me if I'm wrong :) - Kreuvf signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
I do not mean code-complexity. It's the gameplay itself that's getting too complex IMHO. There is enough stuff in the game that you have to worry about. Some time ago Per posted his experiences from that Freeciv and IIRC one of the interesting things was: Don't make things for modders only/add only stuff that _you_ want to have in the game and that _you_ use. Per will be able to correct me if I'm wrong :) - Kreuvf Well, the idea was to give that feature second(or first?) chance, without disrupting current too complex gameplay. It could be promoted into core game or purged after that, as it's clear for me that mod-only feature (effectively unused) will not live long... That's is the only option I see in contrast to removal... i-NoD ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
There is no question that different armor values for front/side/rear hits more closely models the real world. And it would certainly add to the tactical nuances of the game. Good things, IMHO. HOWEVER: Right now the movement code makes a droid circle and expose what would be its most vulnerable sides instead of retreating backwards. Until this is changed, side values are a defect. People are arguing we can fix this and that and add some more code and all is well. No, we can't. Manpower is limited. The two biggest problem areas are the netcode and movement/orders. Better to focus our attention on refactoring those areas than make promises for future features. If you want to work on this, make a branch. This is a prime example of what branches are for. We look forward to your work. Bottom line: simple is better. Take it out. -- Stephen Swaney sswa...@centurytel.net ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
Fine, I got you point and will not object more. And I already have one branch to keep up and there is no point to spread up even more. ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
On 2/18/10, Per Inge Mathisen per.xx...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, In my effort to clean up the basic engine definitions, I would like remove the armour hit sides. This was added a while ago by Watermelon, and to my best knowledge it has never been used for anything useful or interesting, nor do players keep this in mind while playing or make use of it while micromanaging their units. It does, however, waste some memory for each game object, and we could get rid of some code complexity by removing this feature. So unless anyone complains, I will rip it out. While it is a good idea, it really wasn't finished, and implementation was pretty much at a standstill, and lots would have to change to make good use of this code. The same can be said about multi-turrets which still isn't really finished, and still is possible to make crappy looking units. Perhaps it is best to remove it, and those that want to improve this, just make a patch. ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
In my effort to clean up the basic engine definitions, I would like remove the armour hit sides. This was added a while ago by Watermelon, and to my best knowledge it has never been used for anything useful or interesting, nor do players keep this in mind while playing or make use of it while micromanaging their units. It does, however, waste some memory for each game object, and we could get rid of some code complexity by removing this feature. So unless anyone complains, I will rip it out. I was aware of it's existence, but never noticed any effects... I guess it was done in scope of http://developer.wz2100.net/changeset/901 By looking into the patch and comparing with current values the reason for nor do players keep this in mind while playing is that armor values are the SAME for all sides. *SHOKED* If it possible we should not remove this feature and start using it instead. For example: a modeler could display a unit weakness by using a glassed top with subsequent tweak to top armor level... Plus the feature isn't too complex when compared with some other WZ code... Well it's just IMHO. i-NoD ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [warzone2100-dev] Remove armour hit sides
i-NoD wrote: If it possible we should not remove this feature and start using it instead. For example: a modeler could display a unit weakness by using a glassed top with subsequent tweak to top armor level... Plus the feature isn't too complex when compared with some other WZ code... I don't think there is any point using it currently, simply because the user doesn't have enough control over the orientation/movement of the droids and their formations. I think that when droids turn they will expose their weaker side by no fault of the player, this will likely be more frustrating than anything else. Cheers, -Safety0ff ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
