Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Sam Klein]

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 7:07 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:
>
> Again as I recall, many chapters tried to negotiate amendments to that
> prohibition, and I vaguely recall the French chapter being successful,
> and I vaguely recall the Italian chapter being unsuccessful.
>
> I see the French chapter's shop is still open.
>
> http://wikimediashop.spreadshirt.net/
>
> I do not see a shop for Italia or Deutschland, but locals may be able
> to find what I can not.
>
> Any details regarding the old chapters stores, especially German and
> Italian, would be most welcomed to augment and possibly correct my
> vague recollections.
>
> Sj, 99% of this happened during your time on the board, so it would be
> great if you can help provide some clarity with whatever memories you
> have.


TLDR: If a local group comes up with a swag item and design, it should be
possible to get that into the hands of supporters and community members in
short order.  What group produces the item, from where it is shipped in
what batch quantities, and who pays for the item, depend a bit on context.


I discussed this with lawyers on staff a number of times while on the
board.  My understanding  [lawyers, please weigh in to correct me as
needed] was that a separate agreement was necessary, but did not need to be
onerous, and could be worked out for stores run by established
organizations (such as french and german stores).

It is possible to be extra cautious to the extent of not allowing any swag
to use trademarks unless the central licensor has direct control over the
quality of the produced product, though some argue that this is not
necessary.[1]  This extra caution could be a reason not to allow one-off
initiatives such as a run of hats carried out by a user group.  But
established chapters & thematic orgs with offices & administrative staff
should be able to run their own regional store (providing in-country
shipping, a website in the national languages, ) which could handle any
one-offs requested by user groups or projects in the area.


Finally, for cases where the WMF is feeling trademark-conservative (smaller
stores, or any swag with a possibility of recipients feeling that there was
some trademark confusion), it has two further options: a] it can cover the
full cost of local swag (if you give things away rather than selling them,
you don't trigger the risk mentioned above, or iirc the related clause in
the affiliate agreements)... and b] it can arrange to make the swag in the
global store, and cover the difference in int'l shipping costs (or ship the
results in bulk to the regional affiliate for further distribution).


Actual data on which groups want stores and swag, and what they are looking
for, has been scant.  I recommend organizing such plans and designs on
meta, and noting any open tm-related discussion threads there.

If it turns out that inspiring designs, requested by community groups, are
unable to be produced because the global store cannot produce them, local
groups cannot get a grant to cover their production, and local groups
cannot get a simple TM agreement to let them recoup their costs from the
recipients, then something need to be fixed.  A fix, once there is a
specific problem in hand, should not be difficult.

Warmly,
SJ

[1] For a brief & incomplete review of relevant issues, see:
http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027=aulr
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Pine W]

Fascinating. My discussions with WMF Trademarks and WMF Fundraising lead me
to think that they didn't know of the existence of these historical
arrangements, because if they had I would think that they would have
swiftly approved the license request for logo use on hats, modeled after
the agreement with WMFR.

My experience with WMF Trademarks in general has been mixed. Sometimes
they're great and resolutions are swift, and sometimes there's clunkiness
and dropped balls. The situation with logo licenses for apparel is one of
the latter.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Sam Klein  wrote:
>..
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> IIRC, there were several affiliates that were previously running a
>> store, and naturally supporting the most relevant languages of their
>> community.  They were effectively shutdown, and localisation lost due
>> to centralisation to the WMF.
>
>
> Is this true?  Please record any actual examples on:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_trademarks

I dont have any actual examples, only possibly faulty memories of
events that mostly affected other affiliates.

As I recall, and apologies in advance for my memories fading or being
faulty, the French, Italian and German chapters were running what
could be considered a store before the WMF's "Chapters Agreement"
and/or "Fundraising Agreements" of 2009/2010 were required to be
signed by chapters , and the language of those agreements removed the
possibility of merchandise.

Again as I recall, many chapters tried to negotiate amendments to that
prohibition, and I vaguely recall the French chapter being successful,
and I vaguely recall the Italian chapter being unsuccessful.

I see the French chapter's shop is still open.

http://wikimediashop.spreadshirt.net/

I do not see a shop for Italia or Deutschland, but locals may be able
to find what I can not.

Any details regarding the old chapters stores, especially German and
Italian, would be most welcomed to augment and possibly correct my
vague recollections.

Sj, 99% of this happened during your time on the board, so it would be
great if you can help provide some clarity with whatever memories you
have.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia Zero mass effect on Wikimedia projects

[Mwaoshe Njemah]

Reminder: Wikipedia Zero is actually a very good thing. We are hoping to
improve the quality and quantity of articles

Mwaoshe Njemah,
Siku Ya Wiki Project
On 21 Mar 2016 09:58, "WereSpielChequers" 
wrote:

> Is much of the problem about differing varieties of Portuguese? Last I
> heard the Portuguese language Wikipedia allowed multiple versions of
> Portuguese in a similar way to English - i.e. standardised at the article
> level not the project level; Though the editing base is much more skewed to
> Brazil than EN is to the US. Assuming Angolan Portuguese is closer to the
> Portuguese spoken in Portugal, then just as in EN you are likely to get
> some goodfaith newbies "correcting" spelling to the version they know. If
> so perhaps edit filters might work. Alternatively, would it be possible to
> do something similar to the Chinese Wikipedia and display different
> versions of Portuguese according to user preference/IP geography?
>
> WereSpielChequers
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Lodewijk]

It is good that you keep such track of the commitment. It would be nice if
that were done in a more constructive fashion.

You will often find me on your side when asking for more transparency. I do
think that doing this in a more constructive way will be much more
effective in the long run.

Lodewijk

Op dinsdag 22 maart 2016 heeft Fæ  het volgende
geschreven:

> Hi Lodewijk, thanks for stepping in to rationalize Jimmy Wales'
> behaviour in the silence from WMF trustees or Jimmy.
>
> Last week Kolbe summarized the situation in an email as:
> "Walking away rewards and encourages the strategy that Jimmy has
> consciously
> or unconsciously applied here: tell people that their questions are
> justified, setting up an expectation that their queries will be looked
> into, and then ignore any further questions. Give people something that
> sounds like a promise, to pacify them, and then hope that everyone forgets.
> 
> If Jimmy is not forthcoming on the above by John Vandenberg, I suggest we
> start a public vote of no confidence for him, as we did for Arnnon. It has
> gone on long enough."
>
> Jimmy made a commitment to publish by Monday and effectively halted
> this discussion while we waited for Monday to come, and pass.
>
> It's nice to wrap things up with complements and pleasantries, however
> when this is tried the questions still end up being forgotten, taken
> on tangents or given strangely obfuscatory replies that never take the
> issue head on and cherry pick at parts of the question. None of this
> gives confidence in the self-governance or transparency commitments
> from our "appointed" WMF board of trustees.
>
> Fae
>
>
> On 22 March 2016 at 18:18, Lodewijk  > wrote:
> > Let me rephrase that for you:
> >
> > Hey Jimmy, thanks for this commitment. I would definitely be interested.
> > Were you successful in getting clarity?
> >
> > If we all would spend a tiny bit more effort on how we ask things and
> > argue, the last would be more pleasant and people would probably be more
> > tempted to interact.
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > Op dinsdag 22 maart 2016 heeft Fæ > het
> volgende
> > geschreven:
> >
> >> It's now Tuesday, so presumably Jimmy Wales' commitment to publish
> >> something by yesterday at the latest was met somewhere.
> >>
> >> Can anyone share a link to it?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 16 March 2016 at 17:58, Jimmy Wales  
> >> > wrote:
> >> > I think all will be clear by Monday.  Maybe sooner, but I'm not
> >> > promising any sooner.
> >> >
> >> > On 3/10/16 12:13 AM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 6:51 AM, SarahSV  
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:42 PM, John Mark Vandenberg <
> jay...@gmail.com 
> >> >
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> 
> >>  Are we still waiting for Jimmy to agree/reject to James' request to
> >>  release an email?
> >> 
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes. Jimmy said on 28 February that he wanted to speak to others
> about
> >> >>> whether it was okay to release his 30 December 2015 email to James.
> [1]
> >>
> >> --
> >> fae...@gmail.com  
> >> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> --
> fae...@gmail.com 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Fæ]

Hi Lodewijk, thanks for stepping in to rationalize Jimmy Wales'
behaviour in the silence from WMF trustees or Jimmy.

Last week Kolbe summarized the situation in an email as:
"Walking away rewards and encourages the strategy that Jimmy has consciously
or unconsciously applied here: tell people that their questions are
justified, setting up an expectation that their queries will be looked
into, and then ignore any further questions. Give people something that
sounds like a promise, to pacify them, and then hope that everyone forgets.

If Jimmy is not forthcoming on the above by John Vandenberg, I suggest we
start a public vote of no confidence for him, as we did for Arnnon. It has
gone on long enough."

Jimmy made a commitment to publish by Monday and effectively halted
this discussion while we waited for Monday to come, and pass.

It's nice to wrap things up with complements and pleasantries, however
when this is tried the questions still end up being forgotten, taken
on tangents or given strangely obfuscatory replies that never take the
issue head on and cherry pick at parts of the question. None of this
gives confidence in the self-governance or transparency commitments
from our "appointed" WMF board of trustees.

Fae


On 22 March 2016 at 18:18, Lodewijk  wrote:
> Let me rephrase that for you:
>
> Hey Jimmy, thanks for this commitment. I would definitely be interested.
> Were you successful in getting clarity?
>
> If we all would spend a tiny bit more effort on how we ask things and
> argue, the last would be more pleasant and people would probably be more
> tempted to interact.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> Op dinsdag 22 maart 2016 heeft Fæ  het volgende
> geschreven:
>
>> It's now Tuesday, so presumably Jimmy Wales' commitment to publish
>> something by yesterday at the latest was met somewhere.
>>
>> Can anyone share a link to it?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Fae
>>
>> On 16 March 2016 at 17:58, Jimmy Wales > > wrote:
>> > I think all will be clear by Monday.  Maybe sooner, but I'm not
>> > promising any sooner.
>> >
>> > On 3/10/16 12:13 AM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 6:51 AM, SarahSV > > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:42 PM, John Mark Vandenberg > >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> 
>>  Are we still waiting for Jimmy to agree/reject to James' request to
>>  release an email?
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes. Jimmy said on 28 February that he wanted to speak to others about
>> >>> whether it was okay to release his 30 December 2015 email to James. [1]
>>
>> --
>> fae...@gmail.com 
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Scholarship Decline

[Moheen Reeyad]

1+

---
*Moheen Reeyad*
Global user *|* Moheen Reeyad
 on all Wikimedia
Foundation 's public
wikis
Executive Member
 of Wikimedia
Bangladesh 
Administrator of Bengali Wikipedia

http://wikimedia.org.bd

My blog  *| *@moheenreeyad
 | fb.com/MoheenReeyad
 | in/moheenreeyad



On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:58 AM, Richard Farmbrough <
rich...@farmbrough.co.uk> wrote:

> I believe that Wikimania scholarships are one of the best uses of WMF
> funds.  I would like to see more scholarships.  If funds are a problem,
> then by all means have more scholarships for relatively local people - but
> frankly I don't think funds _are_ a problem.
>
>
> On 21/03/2016 14:00, Rodrigo Padula wrote:
>
>> I had a conversation with Vitor Mazuco about this email and agreed with
>> his point of view.
>>
>> Analyzing the list of users from Brazil that received schollarships from
>> WMF during the last years, I noted that WMF/Scholarship Committees are
>> always supporting the same group of people not generating opportunities for
>> new people(and very important contributors) to join and enjoy Wikimania.
>>
>> Including, some of the users that received support to go to Wikimania
>> never provided any feedback to our community regarding Wikimania
>> experience, learnings, knowledge acquired or any kind of reports.
>>
>> I think the scholarship committee should take in consideration those who
>> have been to the event several times, so that we can also include more
>> people, increasing the Wikimania's diversity in all possible ways, avoid so
>> many repetitions engaging more people into this international movement.
>>
>> I'm not saying that the users that received support in recent years do
>> not deserve this support, my point is that we have more people who also
>> deserve to go to Wikimania and never get this opportunity, sometimes it
>> disengage our volunteers.
>>
>> Rodrigo Padula
>> Coordenador de Projetos
>> Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa
>> http://www.wikimedia.org.br
>> 21 99326-0558
>>
>>
>> --- Em Qui, 17 Mar 2016 20:32:36 -0300 Ellie Young &
>> lt;eyo...@wikimedia.org escreveu 
>> Vitor,
>>
>> I have asked the Scholarship Committee for Wikimania '16 to reply to your
>> email.
>> wikimania-scholarsh...@wikimedia.org
>>
>> Ellie Young
>> WMF Events Manager
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Vitor Mazuco vitor.maz...@gmail.com
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi everybody!
>> 
>>  my apply was decline.
>> 
>>  This is my second time that is decline, and my friend of Brazil goes
>>  every year, same users in every year and I never.
>> 
>>  If do you compare my contribution as long with their, I have much
>> more
>>  and my apply is every year decline by WMF.
>> 
>>  Please, who can help with this?
>> 
>>  Thanks in advanced,
>> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Lodewijk]

Let me rephrase that for you:

Hey Jimmy, thanks for this commitment. I would definitely be interested.
Were you successful in getting clarity?

If we all would spend a tiny bit more effort on how we ask things and
argue, the last would be more pleasant and people would probably be more
tempted to interact.

Lodewijk

Op dinsdag 22 maart 2016 heeft Fæ  het volgende
geschreven:

> It's now Tuesday, so presumably Jimmy Wales' commitment to publish
> something by yesterday at the latest was met somewhere.
>
> Can anyone share a link to it?
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On 16 March 2016 at 17:58, Jimmy Wales  > wrote:
> > I think all will be clear by Monday.  Maybe sooner, but I'm not
> > promising any sooner.
> >
> > On 3/10/16 12:13 AM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote:
> >> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 6:51 AM, SarahSV  > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:42 PM, John Mark Vandenberg  >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> 
>  Are we still waiting for Jimmy to agree/reject to James' request to
>  release an email?
> 
> >>>
> >>> Yes. Jimmy said on 28 February that he wanted to speak to others about
> >>> whether it was okay to release his 30 December 2015 email to James. [1]
>
> --
> fae...@gmail.com 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Joseph Seddon]

Hi Fae,

Apologies for the length. I'll take your question into two parts:

Firstly about how we use the funds. We are extremely explicit about how the
proceeds are used:

On the front of the store:

*"We use the proceeds from the store to send thank you gifts to the
volunteers who make Wikipedia possible."*


In the shop FAQ:


*Who profits from this shop?**100% of the proceeds from the Wikipedia store
go to the Wikimedia Foundation, the non-profit organization that operates
Wikipedia and other free knowledge projects. The profits are earmarked
toward our Merchandise Giveaways Program to reward those who have made an
impact on the projects.*


And on the FAQ on meta a slight variant of the above:

*Who profits from this shop?*
*100% of the profits from the Wikimedia Shop go to the Wikimedia
Foundation. It is not the intended purpose of the Wikimedia Shop to become
a Profit center. All proceeds are filtered back into the shop to keep
production costs low, subsidize shipping and help to provide merchandise
specifically aimed towards community members.*


On the point specifically about what the profit margin of the store is and
the percentage of any one purchase going towards the above. At no point do
we claim that any purchase is a "donation" and we do state the following:


*Are purchases tax deductible?*
All of the purchase price of the item goes directly to funding the cost of
the merchandise and the shop overhead, therefore we're not able to provide
a tax receipt for any of the purchase. You can make a donation to the
Wikimedia Foundation, which may be tax deductible in the country where you
donate from, by visiting donate.wikimedia.org.


What is not currently made explicitly clear on any of those pages is what
percentage of a merchandise bought goes towards community merchandise so we
could do a little better in that respect, and it is something I will follow
up on. It's important to keep in mind that it's not quite as simple as if
you purchase X then Y goes to community merchandise since we also subsidise
shipping which is also covered in the FAQ page which states the following:



*Why does shipping cost so much?*Shipping products internationally is
always going to cost more than a domestic shipment. We've created the
'Wikimedia flat-rate global' shipping option, which is $15 USD, to provide
a cost-effective way to send a shipment anywhere in the world. In some
cases your shipment costs could be well under $15 USD, but when it isn't,
and when your order is under 5lbs (about 2.2Kg), we provide a subsidized
flat rate so customers in all parts of the world can purchase products at a
reasonable rate.

I hope that covers the majority of what you asked.

Seddon
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Fæ  wrote:

> Tim, thanks for raising the Trademark Policy.
>
> Joseph, can you point me to where https://store.wikimedia.org explains
> exactly how much of the "donation" is profit going to WMF funds and
> how much is administration and costs (both supplier and WMF costs of
> administration)?
>
> My assumption is that "You truthfully advertise to customers how much
> of the selling price, if any, will be donated to Wikimedia sites" is
> an ethical standard that applies to the Wikimedia Store and Fund
> raising department as much as it is it legally required by the WMF for
> Chapters or other organizations that sell or create products with the
> trademark.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On 22 March 2016 at 13:38, Tim Landscheidt  wrote:
> > Fæ  wrote:
> >
>  (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine,
> the shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
> >
> >>> Expensive? The profit adds funds the WMF, surely.
> >
> >> This is a logical fallacy that many charities fall into, and end up
> >> damaging their reputation in the tabloid press when it turns out that
> >> 80%+ of donations "disappear" in costs such as commercial fees, paying
> >> chugger agencies and bonuses and six-figure salaries for
> fundraising/marketing
> >> directors, rather than going to the intended beneficiary.
> >
> >> Here's a highly likely pragmatic scenario... if, say, a $20 "donation"
> >> to get a WMF merchandise tee-shirt disappeared as:
> >> * $ 12.00 basic transaction and product costs
> >> * $ 6.00 profit/fees to intermediary organizations
> >> * $ 1.80 WMF administration costs
> >> * 20 cents is the outcome "donation" to WMF causes (1%)
> >
> >> Then yes, the transaction adds funds to the WMF, but in a really
> >> crappy way where the system probably cost several times more in WMF
> >> staff time to set up than it will make over many years, comparatively
> >> huge profit margins are going to unnamed parties (at least unnamed for
> >> the purchaser or WMF volunteers), and in a non-transparent way too.
> >
> > Your point is made much more succinct in the Trademark Pol-
> > icy
> > (cf.
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Pine W]

The current practice, in my experience, is maximum red tape.

Pine
On Mar 22, 2016 10:52, "Sam Klein"  wrote:

> Having a shop that is run with low overhead by someone who specializes in
> handling inventory and shipping, is a very good idea.  I've had to do this
> both in-house and externally at a few organizations and when your shipping
> volume is as low as the WM Shop's currently is, it doesn't make sense to do
> it yourself.  Economies of scale are tremendous until you reach the stage
> of having a large storage unit and are shipping thousands of items a day.
>
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > IIRC, there were several affiliates that were previously running a
> > store, and naturally supporting the most relevant languages of their
> > community.  They were effectively shutdown, and localisation lost due
> > to centralisation to the WMF.
>
>
> Is this true?  Please record any actual examples on:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_trademarks
>
>
> > The trademark policy provides a sound basis for this type of use of the
> > trademarks, and could allow
> > affiliates to re-open their own shops.
> >
>
> Yes.  As far as I know, any affiliate that wants to run its own shop (for
> instance, including localized swag if they know inexpensive local
> manufacturers & want to set up in-country shipping to avoid international
> shipping fees) should be able to do so with minimal red tape.
>
> SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Sam Klein]

Having a shop that is run with low overhead by someone who specializes in
handling inventory and shipping, is a very good idea.  I've had to do this
both in-house and externally at a few organizations and when your shipping
volume is as low as the WM Shop's currently is, it doesn't make sense to do
it yourself.  Economies of scale are tremendous until you reach the stage
of having a large storage unit and are shipping thousands of items a day.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:

>
> IIRC, there were several affiliates that were previously running a
> store, and naturally supporting the most relevant languages of their
> community.  They were effectively shutdown, and localisation lost due
> to centralisation to the WMF.


Is this true?  Please record any actual examples on:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_trademarks


> The trademark policy provides a sound basis for this type of use of the
> trademarks, and could allow
> affiliates to re-open their own shops.
>

Yes.  As far as I know, any affiliate that wants to run its own shop (for
instance, including localized swag if they know inexpensive local
manufacturers & want to set up in-country shipping to avoid international
shipping fees) should be able to do so with minimal red tape.

SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Pine W]

I am having a very stretched out discussion, over the course literally of
multiple years, to try to get approval from WMF to produce or aquire
Wikipedia-branded hats. So far no trademark license has been granted. I
have heard multiple times that the WMF store may get these hats, but after
multiple requests over the course of years, this has yet to happen and I at
this rate it will never happen. Given the lack of progress in the WMF
store, I would appreciate it if WMF would grant a trademark license for
Wikipedia-branded apparel for independent production to affiliates who
request it. The lack of progress so far is quite frustrating.

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Nathan  wrote:
> FWIW, it's clear that the trademark policy is intended to apply to users
> other than the WMF. This is all a bit overblown, considering the tiny scale
> of use and money involved.

IIRC, there were several affiliates that were previously running a
store, and naturally supporting the most relevant languages of their
community.  They were effectively shutdown, and localisation lost due
to centralisation to the WMF.  The trademark policy provides a sound
basis for this type of use of the trademarks, and could allow
affiliates to re-open their own shops.

I'd like to know if anyone has received a trademark license under that
"Commercial merchandise" provision of the trademark policy.

It would also be interesting to hear from anyone whose application for
Commercial merchandise was rejected.

-- 
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Fæ]

It's now Tuesday, so presumably Jimmy Wales' commitment to publish
something by yesterday at the latest was met somewhere.

Can anyone share a link to it?

Thanks,
Fae

On 16 March 2016 at 17:58, Jimmy Wales  wrote:
> I think all will be clear by Monday.  Maybe sooner, but I'm not
> promising any sooner.
>
> On 3/10/16 12:13 AM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 6:51 AM, SarahSV  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:42 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 Are we still waiting for Jimmy to agree/reject to James' request to
 release an email?

>>>
>>> Yes. Jimmy said on 28 February that he wanted to speak to others about
>>> whether it was okay to release his 30 December 2015 email to James. [1]

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Nathan]

FWIW, it's clear that the trademark policy is intended to apply to users
other than the WMF. This is all a bit overblown, considering the tiny scale
of use and money involved.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Fæ  wrote:

> Tim, thanks for raising the Trademark Policy.
>
> Joseph, can you point me to where https://store.wikimedia.org explains
> exactly how much of the "donation" is profit going to WMF funds and
> how much is administration and costs (both supplier and WMF costs of
> administration)?
>
> My assumption is that "You truthfully advertise to customers how much
> of the selling price, if any, will be donated to Wikimedia sites" is
> an ethical standard that applies to the Wikimedia Store and Fund
> raising department as much as it is it legally required by the WMF for
> Chapters or other organizations that sell or create products with the
> trademark.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On 22 March 2016 at 13:38, Tim Landscheidt  wrote:
> > Fæ  wrote:
> >
>  (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine,
> the shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
> >
> >>> Expensive? The profit adds funds the WMF, surely.
> >
> >> This is a logical fallacy that many charities fall into, and end up
> >> damaging their reputation in the tabloid press when it turns out that
> >> 80%+ of donations "disappear" in costs such as commercial fees, paying
> >> chugger agencies and bonuses and six-figure salaries for
> fundraising/marketing
> >> directors, rather than going to the intended beneficiary.
> >
> >> Here's a highly likely pragmatic scenario... if, say, a $20 "donation"
> >> to get a WMF merchandise tee-shirt disappeared as:
> >> * $ 12.00 basic transaction and product costs
> >> * $ 6.00 profit/fees to intermediary organizations
> >> * $ 1.80 WMF administration costs
> >> * 20 cents is the outcome "donation" to WMF causes (1%)
> >
> >> Then yes, the transaction adds funds to the WMF, but in a really
> >> crappy way where the system probably cost several times more in WMF
> >> staff time to set up than it will make over many years, comparatively
> >> huge profit margins are going to unnamed parties (at least unnamed for
> >> the purchaser or WMF volunteers), and in a non-transparent way too.
> >
> > Your point is made much more succinct in the Trademark Pol-
> > icy
> > (cf.
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_policy#policy-commercialmerch
> ):
> >
> > | You may make merchandise with the Wikimedia trademarks for
> > | commercial use, if:
> >
> > | - You obtain a trademark license from the Wikimedia Founda-
> > |   tion;
> > | - You follow our Visual Identity Guidelines; and
> > | - You truthfully advertise to customers how much of the
> > |   selling price, if any, will be donated to Wikimedia sites.
> >
> > The problem is the belief that a charity with a focus on
> > distributing knowledge must have its own t-shirt shop,
> > probably fostered by firm disciples getting free mugs.
> >
> > Tim
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Fæ]

Tim, thanks for raising the Trademark Policy.

Joseph, can you point me to where https://store.wikimedia.org explains
exactly how much of the "donation" is profit going to WMF funds and
how much is administration and costs (both supplier and WMF costs of
administration)?

My assumption is that "You truthfully advertise to customers how much
of the selling price, if any, will be donated to Wikimedia sites" is
an ethical standard that applies to the Wikimedia Store and Fund
raising department as much as it is it legally required by the WMF for
Chapters or other organizations that sell or create products with the
trademark.

Thanks,
Fae

On 22 March 2016 at 13:38, Tim Landscheidt  wrote:
> Fæ  wrote:
>
 (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the 
 shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
>
>>> Expensive? The profit adds funds the WMF, surely.
>
>> This is a logical fallacy that many charities fall into, and end up
>> damaging their reputation in the tabloid press when it turns out that
>> 80%+ of donations "disappear" in costs such as commercial fees, paying
>> chugger agencies and bonuses and six-figure salaries for 
>> fundraising/marketing
>> directors, rather than going to the intended beneficiary.
>
>> Here's a highly likely pragmatic scenario... if, say, a $20 "donation"
>> to get a WMF merchandise tee-shirt disappeared as:
>> * $ 12.00 basic transaction and product costs
>> * $ 6.00 profit/fees to intermediary organizations
>> * $ 1.80 WMF administration costs
>> * 20 cents is the outcome "donation" to WMF causes (1%)
>
>> Then yes, the transaction adds funds to the WMF, but in a really
>> crappy way where the system probably cost several times more in WMF
>> staff time to set up than it will make over many years, comparatively
>> huge profit margins are going to unnamed parties (at least unnamed for
>> the purchaser or WMF volunteers), and in a non-transparent way too.
>
> Your point is made much more succinct in the Trademark Pol-
> icy
> (cf. 
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_policy#policy-commercialmerch):
>
> | You may make merchandise with the Wikimedia trademarks for
> | commercial use, if:
>
> | - You obtain a trademark license from the Wikimedia Founda-
> |   tion;
> | - You follow our Visual Identity Guidelines; and
> | - You truthfully advertise to customers how much of the
> |   selling price, if any, will be donated to Wikimedia sites.
>
> The problem is the belief that a charity with a focus on
> distributing knowledge must have its own t-shirt shop,
> probably fostered by firm disciples getting free mugs.
>
> Tim
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
With the same pragmatism a different scenario. If say a $20,- donation
arrives and a T-shirt is send,
* $12 basic transaction and product costs
* $12 pro rata costs of having our "own" product to sell produce
* 1,80 WMF administration costs
* $5,80 loss on every T-shirt
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 22 March 2016 at 13:40, Fæ  wrote:

> On 22 March 2016 at 11:51, Gordon Joly  wrote:
> > On 21/03/16 19:39, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> >> (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine,
> the shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
> >
> >
> > Expensive? The profit adds funds the WMF, surely.
>
> This is a logical fallacy that many charities fall into, and end up
> damaging their reputation in the tabloid press when it turns out that
> 80%+ of donations "disappear" in costs such as commercial fees, paying
> chugger agencies and bonuses and six-figure salaries for
> fundraising/marketing
> directors, rather than going to the intended beneficiary.
>
> Here's a highly likely pragmatic scenario... if, say, a $20 "donation"
> to get a WMF merchandise tee-shirt disappeared as:
> * $ 12.00 basic transaction and product costs
> * $ 6.00 profit/fees to intermediary organizations
> * $ 1.80 WMF administration costs
> * 20 cents is the outcome "donation" to WMF causes (1%)
>
> Then yes, the transaction adds funds to the WMF, but in a really
> crappy way where the system probably cost several times more in WMF
> staff time to set up than it will make over many years, comparatively
> huge profit margins are going to unnamed parties (at least unnamed for
> the purchaser or WMF volunteers), and in a non-transparent way too.
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Tim Landscheidt]

Fæ  wrote:

>>> (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the 
>>> shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)

>> Expensive? The profit adds funds the WMF, surely.

> This is a logical fallacy that many charities fall into, and end up
> damaging their reputation in the tabloid press when it turns out that
> 80%+ of donations "disappear" in costs such as commercial fees, paying
> chugger agencies and bonuses and six-figure salaries for fundraising/marketing
> directors, rather than going to the intended beneficiary.

> Here's a highly likely pragmatic scenario... if, say, a $20 "donation"
> to get a WMF merchandise tee-shirt disappeared as:
> * $ 12.00 basic transaction and product costs
> * $ 6.00 profit/fees to intermediary organizations
> * $ 1.80 WMF administration costs
> * 20 cents is the outcome "donation" to WMF causes (1%)

> Then yes, the transaction adds funds to the WMF, but in a really
> crappy way where the system probably cost several times more in WMF
> staff time to set up than it will make over many years, comparatively
> huge profit margins are going to unnamed parties (at least unnamed for
> the purchaser or WMF volunteers), and in a non-transparent way too.

Your point is made much more succinct in the Trademark Pol-
icy
(cf. 
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_policy#policy-commercialmerch):

| You may make merchandise with the Wikimedia trademarks for
| commercial use, if:

| - You obtain a trademark license from the Wikimedia Founda-
|   tion;
| - You follow our Visual Identity Guidelines; and
| - You truthfully advertise to customers how much of the
|   selling price, if any, will be donated to Wikimedia sites.

The problem is the belief that a charity with a focus on
distributing knowledge must have its own t-shirt shop,
probably fostered by firm disciples getting free mugs.

Tim


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] FLOSS for operations equipment

[Richard Farmbrough]

I think there are two clear policies here:

1. The forkability of the projects
2. The "niceness" of suppliers.

The first is a movement and project principle.  The second is - loosely 
- connected to a broader movement.  It is philosophically and morally 
dubious to coerce people to conform to our preferred ethics model.  
Perhaps this would be highlighted best if we were to consider only 
serving web pages to readers using FLOSS operating systems.






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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Scholarship Decline

[Richard Farmbrough]

I believe that Wikimania scholarships are one of the best uses of WMF 
funds.  I would like to see more scholarships.  If funds are a problem, 
then by all means have more scholarships for relatively local people - 
but frankly I don't think funds _are_ a problem.


On 21/03/2016 14:00, Rodrigo Padula wrote:

I had a conversation with Vitor Mazuco about this email and agreed with his 
point of view.

Analyzing the list of users from Brazil that received schollarships from WMF 
during the last years, I noted that WMF/Scholarship Committees are always 
supporting the same group of people not generating opportunities for new 
people(and very important contributors) to join and enjoy Wikimania.

Including, some of the users that received support to go to Wikimania never 
provided any feedback to our community regarding Wikimania experience, 
learnings, knowledge acquired or any kind of reports.

I think the scholarship committee should take in consideration those who have 
been to the event several times, so that we can also include more people, 
increasing the Wikimania's diversity in all possible ways, avoid so many 
repetitions engaging more people into this international movement.

I'm not saying that the users that received support in recent years do not 
deserve this support, my point is that we have more people who also deserve to 
go to Wikimania and never get this opportunity, sometimes it disengage our 
volunteers.

Rodrigo Padula
Coordenador de Projetos
Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa
http://www.wikimedia.org.br
21 99326-0558


--- Em Qui, 17 Mar 2016 20:32:36 -0300 Ellie Young eyo...@wikimedia.org 
escreveu 
Vitor,

I have asked the Scholarship Committee for Wikimania '16 to reply to your
email.
wikimania-scholarsh...@wikimedia.org

Ellie Young
WMF Events Manager


On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Vitor Mazuco vitor.maz...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi everybody!

 my apply was decline.

 This is my second time that is decline, and my friend of Brazil goes
 every year, same users in every year and I never.

 If do you compare my contribution as long with their, I have much more
 and my apply is every year decline by WMF.

 Please, who can help with this?

 Thanks in advanced,

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] FLOSS for operations equipment

[Marc A. Pelletier]

On 2016-03-22 2:04 AM, James Salsman wrote:

Are the FreeBSD-based pfSense C2758 series in the Foundation's throughput tier?
[...]


That looks like decent mid-range gear, but definitely not the the 
hardware-supported levels needed to support operations.



What are the current Foundation throughput bandwidth requirements?


Big.  :-)  I'm not the best one to ask for those details as I've had 
very little involvement in the networking side of ops; Faidon or Mark 
would be your best bet there.


But, to be honest, I think this is besides the point:  I'm not arguing 
that specific piece of gear X or Y needs or should not be replaced with 
a possible FLOSS-only alternative; but that *attempting* to do so is a 
difficult, expensive, and manpower-hungry endeavor whether you succeed 
or not.


There are things where that investment is worthwhile - or even 
necessary.  There are other things where doing so is at best a waste of 
donors' money (especially for one-offs or accessory parts of what the 
Foundation does that impact how the work is done rather than the projects).


A good example might be our videoconferencing software.  The Foundation 
uses Google Hangouts a lot.  Nowadays, for bigger meetings, Bluejeans 
has been added to the list.  At (very) regular interval, someone in 
engineering does another round of testing of FLOSS videoconferencing 
alternatives, because it irks many of us that we rely on proprietary 
solutions - and every time to date the result is that none will work to 
cover our use cases properly.


In the end, there are three only choices: (a) pick an inexpensive 
proprietary solution that does the job, (b) make our own (or participate 
in making it), or (c) do without.  When doing without would prevent the 
staff from doing the job, that doesn't leave very many options.


-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Fæ]

On 22 March 2016 at 11:51, Gordon Joly  wrote:
> On 21/03/16 19:39, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
>> (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the 
>> shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)
>
>
> Expensive? The profit adds funds the WMF, surely.

This is a logical fallacy that many charities fall into, and end up
damaging their reputation in the tabloid press when it turns out that
80%+ of donations "disappear" in costs such as commercial fees, paying
chugger agencies and bonuses and six-figure salaries for fundraising/marketing
directors, rather than going to the intended beneficiary.

Here's a highly likely pragmatic scenario... if, say, a $20 "donation"
to get a WMF merchandise tee-shirt disappeared as:
* $ 12.00 basic transaction and product costs
* $ 6.00 profit/fees to intermediary organizations
* $ 1.80 WMF administration costs
* 20 cents is the outcome "donation" to WMF causes (1%)

Then yes, the transaction adds funds to the WMF, but in a really
crappy way where the system probably cost several times more in WMF
staff time to set up than it will make over many years, comparatively
huge profit margins are going to unnamed parties (at least unnamed for
the purchaser or WMF volunteers), and in a non-transparent way too.

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Gordon Joly]

On 21/03/16 19:39, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> (I must admit that i tested the job a year ago, the product was fine, the 
> shipment fast. A bit expensive for my taste.)


Expensive? The profit adds funds the WMF, surely.

Gordo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] FLOSS for operations equipment

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Given that a Google and Facebook are working on networking equipment and
are making both hardware and associated freely available, it makes more
sense to concentrate on this high end solution. A solution that fits with
the need of WMF.
Thanks,
 GerardM

PS I am not so interested that I know what license it is. I know it is free.

On 22 March 2016 at 11:56, Antoine Musso  wrote:

> Le 22/03/2016 07:04, James Salsman a écrit :
> >
> >> >... as far as I know, high-end networking hardware is not
> >> > available with Libre OSes
> > Are the FreeBSD-based pfSense C2758 series in the Foundation's
> throughput tier?
> >
> > https://www.pfsense.org/products/product-family.html#c2758
> >
> > https://portal.pfsense.org/docs/manuals/c2758/system-specification.html
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PfSense
> >
> > What are the current Foundation throughput bandwidth requirements?
>
> I would not qualify the PfSense product as high-end. It is basically a
> PC with packet management handled at the software layer.  Wikimedia does
> not have FreeBSD systems AFAIK and the operations people dealing with
> networking would need a training for PfSense.
>
>
> From wikitech, ones can get a list of hardware routers and switches
> being used:
>
> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Common_Datacenter_Specifications#EQIAD
>
> They are Juniper, a leader in networking equipments (another is Cisco).
> Its operating system administration commands are well known by network
> engineers around the world. That makes it easier to enroll new network
> people.
>
> According to the wikitech page, the routers are MX80 and MX480 and
> switches EX4200 / EX4550.  They come with integrated circuits to deal
> with packets, ie it is a hardware chip dealing with packets and network
> flow. That makes them order of magnitude faster.   The Juniper operating
> system is BSD based and comes with a wide range of features that are
> imho unmatched in the Libre world.
>
> I understand the idea behind pushing for 100% FOSS, but that should not
> be a goal of the foundation.  As long as the projects can be cloned and
> rebuild based on FOSS, I think it is good enough.
>
> Surely, I don't see the Foundation asking for buildings plans to be
> under a creative common or forbid use of Mac OS, Windows or iPhone ?
> That is really a different goal than sharing knowledge.
>
> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] FLOSS for operations equipment

[Antoine Musso]

Le 22/03/2016 07:04, James Salsman a écrit :
> 
>> >... as far as I know, high-end networking hardware is not
>> > available with Libre OSes
> Are the FreeBSD-based pfSense C2758 series in the Foundation's throughput 
> tier?
> 
> https://www.pfsense.org/products/product-family.html#c2758
> 
> https://portal.pfsense.org/docs/manuals/c2758/system-specification.html
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PfSense
> 
> What are the current Foundation throughput bandwidth requirements?

I would not qualify the PfSense product as high-end. It is basically a
PC with packet management handled at the software layer.  Wikimedia does
not have FreeBSD systems AFAIK and the operations people dealing with
networking would need a training for PfSense.


From wikitech, ones can get a list of hardware routers and switches
being used:
 https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Common_Datacenter_Specifications#EQIAD

They are Juniper, a leader in networking equipments (another is Cisco).
Its operating system administration commands are well known by network
engineers around the world. That makes it easier to enroll new network
people.

According to the wikitech page, the routers are MX80 and MX480 and
switches EX4200 / EX4550.  They come with integrated circuits to deal
with packets, ie it is a hardware chip dealing with packets and network
flow. That makes them order of magnitude faster.   The Juniper operating
system is BSD based and comes with a wide range of features that are
imho unmatched in the Libre world.

I understand the idea behind pushing for 100% FOSS, but that should not
be a goal of the foundation.  As long as the projects can be cloned and
rebuild based on FOSS, I think it is good enough.

Surely, I don't see the Foundation asking for buildings plans to be
under a creative common or forbid use of Mac OS, Windows or iPhone ?
That is really a different goal than sharing knowledge.

-- 
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] FLOSS for operations equipment

[James Salsman]

Marc A. Pelletier wrote:

>... as far as I know, high-end networking hardware is not
> available with Libre OSes

Are the FreeBSD-based pfSense C2758 series in the Foundation's throughput tier?

https://www.pfsense.org/products/product-family.html#c2758

https://portal.pfsense.org/docs/manuals/c2758/system-specification.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PfSense

What are the current Foundation throughput bandwidth requirements?

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