Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Kerry Raymond kerry.raym...@gmail.com wrote: .. Sorry for this email by Kerry not being approved when it was sent. The images pushed it to the moderator, who was at Wikimania. Fwiw, it is possible to add trove references. 1. Open the transclusion dialog 2. On the left hand side there is a '+' symbol; hover over it and '[ ]' will appear - click that. 3. Paste in the raw wikitext in the text box that appears 4. Click apply This trick can be used to add any wiki text, anywhere in an article. This feature has been in the core VE since it was first deployed, but not documented . -- John ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Kerry Raymond kerry.raym...@gmail.com wrote: .. Sorry for this email by Kerry not being approved when it was sent. The images pushed it to the moderator, who was at Wikimania. Fwiw, it is possible to add trove references. 1. Open the transclusion dialog 2. On the left hand side there is a '+' symbol; hover over it and '[ ]' will appear - click that. 3. Paste in the raw wikitext in the text box that appears 4. Click apply This trick can be used to add any wiki text, anywhere in an article. This feature has been in the core VE since it was first deployed, but not documented . The feature requests for this are https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51899#c2 and this one is sort of related https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43133 -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
Thanks, John! That will come in handy for training on the VE. It also explains why Liam never saw my email - it did seem a little odd at the time. For those who like to follow instructions literally, John omitted one step. First, open the references dialog. Then open the transclusion dialog, etc as John describes. Of course adding a Trove reference in the VE is actually far more steps than in the source editor, plus you have the greater delays of loading the VE and saving from the VE, so it's unlikely to be the tipping point to switch anyone from the source editor to the VE. Kerry -Original Message- From: John Vandenberg [mailto:jay...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 9 October 2013 4:12 PM To: Kerry Raymond; Wikimedia Australia Chapter Subject: Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Kerry Raymond kerry.raym...@gmail.com wrote: .. Sorry for this email by Kerry not being approved when it was sent. The images pushed it to the moderator, who was at Wikimania. Fwiw, it is possible to add trove references. 1. Open the transclusion dialog 2. On the left hand side there is a '+' symbol; hover over it and '[ ]' will appear - click that. 3. Paste in the raw wikitext in the text box that appears 4. Click apply This trick can be used to add any wiki text, anywhere in an article. This feature has been in the core VE since it was first deployed, but not documented . -- John ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
In the short term, this is a reason why the Visual Editor needs to cater for wiki markup to be reprocessed as required. Hopefully the VE Template Editor has been designed for clipboard interaction and this will be easy to cater for. (Otherwise, again we've been foisted a pre-alpha version masquerading as a beta.) As I remember the last time I used the Trove cite (flukily exactly one year ago today), I needed to return the title to edit case and remove the underscores in the wikilink for the newspaper. Either I'm remembering incorrectly or you've fixed the title capitalisation, because only the underscores remain when I've regenerated the cites today. In case you want the example, I inserted two cites across these three edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Renfrey_Pottsdiff=506203537oldid=498866518 And I think I must be remembering the title casing incorrectly. My previous main use of NLA cites is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Casey where again the only differences between the cites as I entered them and as they are generated today are the actual newspaper wikilink and the accessdate. -- Regards, Mark Hurd, B.Sc.(Ma.)(Hons.) On 7 August 2013 11:37, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process - part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some feedback: 1) What effect does the Visual Editor have on the provision of this kind of code. Is it even useful anymore to provide pre-filled wiki markup? 2) Which kinds of results are useful to have this service provided, and which are irrelevant? I believe the best use-case is for individual newspaper articles within Trove. However, I believe that there is little/no value in providing this service for individual book results in the NLA catalogue search (because WP just wants the ISBN, not the fact that it's in any individual library's collection). However - what about manuscripts, music scores, unpublished collections of personal papers, digitised maps Is it useful to have this service provided in those circumstances? -Liam / Wittylama (In this case I'm asking from my professional capacity as employee of the NLA) -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
Hi Liam, I've used Trove for quite a few articles. In response to your questions: 1) Given that experienced Wikipedia editors are still mainly using wiki code, and will probably do so for some time, the pre-filled wiki mark up remains very useful. 2) I agree that this functionality is mainly useful for newspaper articles and the like. Something to support uploads of images into Commons would also be very useful, but would be less-used I suspect. I hope that's helpful. Regards, Nick Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:07:17 +1000 From: liamwy...@gmail.com To: wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process - part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some feedback: 1) What effect does the Visual Editor have on the provision of this kind of code. Is it even useful anymore to provide pre-filled wiki markup?2) Which kinds of results are useful to have this service provided, and which are irrelevant? I believe the best use-case is for individual newspaper articles within Trove. However, I believe that there is little/no value in providing this service for individual book results in the NLA catalogue search (because WP just wants the ISBN, not the fact that it's in any individual library's collection). However - what about manuscripts, music scores, unpublished collections of personal papers, digitised maps Is it useful to have this service provided in those circumstances? -Liam / Wittylama(In this case I'm asking from my professional capacity as employee of the NLA) -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
Thanks Mark, Nick, Gideon, In response to your points thus far, (and others - please send me any responses you have too!) The general gist, if I can put it this way, is the current cite code is working, don't fix it until it's broken. Which is good to hear :-) This answers my question no.1, but I'd be interested in feedback about question no.2 as well - which kinds of records in both the Trove and NLA search results would be actually useful for having this citation code appear. For example - here http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2540625 is the NLA catalogue reference for Harry Potter book 1. Clicking 'cite this' pulls up a WP code as well. My educated guess is that this code (and the equivalent in Trove) is neither useful for the NLA nor for WP. Am I right in this? Are newspaper articles the ONLY time wikimedians will use this citation code, or are there other cases that are beneficial (e.g. unique materials in the NLA that have no ISBN)? Mark, with regards to the formatting (underscores, capitalisation) this is something that I believe Grahame has already submitted a comprehensive series of bug reports for to the Trove team. The issue there is not so much the citation system itself but Trove's record naming structure and, more generally, the long list of higher priority bugs that are not as easily manually worked-around. As for the clipboard issue - this is a clear way of summarising my primary concern, thanks for framing it so neatly. I've subsequently asked it in those terms over on Mediawiki.org too. Nick, thank you too. WRT some ability to make uploads of images more direct might be cool - but as Gnang says, many of the files available in Trove aren't actually from the NLA and also many are in copyright (so a blanket system wouldn't be appropriate). -Liam wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 10:01, Nick Dowling nick_dowl...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Liam, I've used Trove for quite a few articles. In response to your questions: 1) Given that experienced Wikipedia editors are still mainly using wiki code, and will probably do so for some time, the pre-filled wiki mark up remains very useful. 2) I agree that this functionality is mainly useful for newspaper articles and the like. Something to support uploads of images into Commons would also be very useful, but would be less-used I suspect. I hope that's helpful. Regards, Nick -- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:07:17 +1000 From: liamwy...@gmail.com To: wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process - part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some feedback: 1) What effect does the Visual Editor have on the provision of this kind of code. Is it even useful anymore to provide pre-filled wiki markup? 2) Which kinds of results are useful to have this service provided, and which are irrelevant? I believe the best use-case is for individual newspaper articles within Trove. However, I believe that there is little/no value in providing this service for individual book results in the NLA catalogue search (because WP just wants the ISBN, not the fact that it's in any individual library's collection). However - what about manuscripts, music scores, unpublished collections of personal papers, digitised maps Is it useful to have this service provided in those circumstances? -Liam / Wittylama (In this case I'm asking from my professional capacity as employee of the NLA) -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
as to where the citation needs to available its any where from which editors draw information from Trove, including, newspapers, magazines, audio(http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/163116758) On 7 August 2013 18:33, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Mark, Nick, Gideon, In response to your points thus far, (and others - please send me any responses you have too!) The general gist, if I can put it this way, is the current cite code is working, don't fix it until it's broken. Which is good to hear :-) This answers my question no.1, but I'd be interested in feedback about question no.2 as well - which kinds of records in both the Trove and NLA search results would be actually useful for having this citation code appear. For example - here http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2540625 is the NLA catalogue reference for Harry Potter book 1. Clicking 'cite this' pulls up a WP code as well. My educated guess is that this code (and the equivalent in Trove) is neither useful for the NLA nor for WP. Am I right in this? Are newspaper articles the ONLY time wikimedians will use this citation code, or are there other cases that are beneficial (e.g. unique materials in the NLA that have no ISBN)? Mark, with regards to the formatting (underscores, capitalisation) this is something that I believe Grahame has already submitted a comprehensive series of bug reports for to the Trove team. The issue there is not so much the citation system itself but Trove's record naming structure and, more generally, the long list of higher priority bugs that are not as easily manually worked-around. As for the clipboard issue - this is a clear way of summarising my primary concern, thanks for framing it so neatly. I've subsequently asked it in those terms over on Mediawiki.org too. Nick, thank you too. WRT some ability to make uploads of images more direct might be cool - but as Gnang says, many of the files available in Trove aren't actually from the NLA and also many are in copyright (so a blanket system wouldn't be appropriate). -Liam wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 10:01, Nick Dowling nick_dowl...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Liam, I've used Trove for quite a few articles. In response to your questions: 1) Given that experienced Wikipedia editors are still mainly using wiki code, and will probably do so for some time, the pre-filled wiki mark up remains very useful. 2) I agree that this functionality is mainly useful for newspaper articles and the like. Something to support uploads of images into Commons would also be very useful, but would be less-used I suspect. I hope that's helpful. Regards, Nick -- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:07:17 +1000 From: liamwy...@gmail.com To: wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process - part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some feedback: 1) What effect does the Visual Editor have on the provision of this kind of code. Is it even useful anymore to provide pre-filled wiki markup? 2) Which kinds of results are useful to have this service provided, and which are irrelevant? I believe the best use-case is for individual newspaper articles within Trove. However, I believe that there is little/no value in providing this service for individual book results in the NLA catalogue search (because WP just wants the ISBN, not the fact that it's in any individual library's collection). However - what about manuscripts, music scores, unpublished collections of personal papers, digitised maps Is it useful to have this service provided in those circumstances? -Liam / Wittylama (In this case I'm asking from my professional capacity as employee of the NLA) -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l -- GN. Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com Gn. Blogg: http://gnangarra.wordpress.com ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
If the NLA page has the WP citation, currenlty its just *Citation Details* *Use the following url to begin from this point:* * http://www.nla.gov.au/amad/nla.oh-vn5811404/5-2 * *Or this url to play only the portion of audio:* * http://www.nla.gov.au/amad/nla.oh-vn5811404/5-2~5-4 *I'd probably just use the trove link for ease of use... On 7 August 2013 19:02, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: That's an interesting example Gnang - that link you gave is to an oral history that's in the NLA collection and happens to be digitised and online. Not all are, but this one is. Moreover, this one is part of a new system the NLA has (to which all oral histories are progressively being migrated) which includes a timecoded transcript and the ability to give a stable URL for EACH part of the transcript - potentially providing a direct citation to really interesting primary source footnotes! The URL for the same item in the NLA catalogue is this: http://nla.gov.au/nla.oh-vn5811404 So... given that, would you suggest that, in this example, it would be appropriate for Trove to provide a WP citation OR to leave that citation to the NLA catalogue itself? (Please say if I'm not being clear, it's a complex question!). -Liam wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 10:56, Gnangarra gnanga...@gmail.com wrote: as to where the citation needs to available its any where from which editors draw information from Trove, including, newspapers, magazines, audio(http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/163116758) On 7 August 2013 18:33, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Mark, Nick, Gideon, In response to your points thus far, (and others - please send me any responses you have too!) The general gist, if I can put it this way, is the current cite code is working, don't fix it until it's broken. Which is good to hear :-) This answers my question no.1, but I'd be interested in feedback about question no.2 as well - which kinds of records in both the Trove and NLA search results would be actually useful for having this citation code appear. For example - here http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2540625 is the NLA catalogue reference for Harry Potter book 1. Clicking 'cite this' pulls up a WP code as well. My educated guess is that this code (and the equivalent in Trove) is neither useful for the NLA nor for WP. Am I right in this? Are newspaper articles the ONLY time wikimedians will use this citation code, or are there other cases that are beneficial (e.g. unique materials in the NLA that have no ISBN)? Mark, with regards to the formatting (underscores, capitalisation) this is something that I believe Grahame has already submitted a comprehensive series of bug reports for to the Trove team. The issue there is not so much the citation system itself but Trove's record naming structure and, more generally, the long list of higher priority bugs that are not as easily manually worked-around. As for the clipboard issue - this is a clear way of summarising my primary concern, thanks for framing it so neatly. I've subsequently asked it in those terms over on Mediawiki.org too. Nick, thank you too. WRT some ability to make uploads of images more direct might be cool - but as Gnang says, many of the files available in Trove aren't actually from the NLA and also many are in copyright (so a blanket system wouldn't be appropriate). -Liam wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 10:01, Nick Dowling nick_dowl...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Liam, I've used Trove for quite a few articles. In response to your questions: 1) Given that experienced Wikipedia editors are still mainly using wiki code, and will probably do so for some time, the pre-filled wiki mark up remains very useful. 2) I agree that this functionality is mainly useful for newspaper articles and the like. Something to support uploads of images into Commons would also be very useful, but would be less-used I suspect. I hope that's helpful. Regards, Nick -- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:07:17 +1000 From: liamwy...@gmail.com To: wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process - part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some feedback: 1) What effect does the Visual Editor have on the provision of this kind of code. Is it even useful anymore to provide pre-filled wiki markup? 2) Which kinds of results are useful to have this service provided, and which are irrelevant? I
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
I have used Trove for predominantly newspaper articles in biographies, occasionally other encylopaedic articles. The ability to reference publications by author using the Wikipedia citation has also been useful. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Pasco - having the underscores and capitalisation in the citation fixed would be nice. Paul Foord On 7 August 2013 21:25, Gnangarra gnanga...@gmail.com wrote: If the NLA page has the WP citation, currenlty its just *Citation Details* *Use the following url to begin from this point:* * http://www.nla.gov.au/amad/nla.oh-vn5811404/5-2 * *Or this url to play only the portion of audio:* * http://www.nla.gov.au/amad/nla.oh-vn5811404/5-2~5-4 *I'd probably just use the trove link for ease of use... On 7 August 2013 19:02, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: That's an interesting example Gnang - that link you gave is to an oral history that's in the NLA collection and happens to be digitised and online. Not all are, but this one is. Moreover, this one is part of a new system the NLA has (to which all oral histories are progressively being migrated) which includes a timecoded transcript and the ability to give a stable URL for EACH part of the transcript - potentially providing a direct citation to really interesting primary source footnotes! The URL for the same item in the NLA catalogue is this: http://nla.gov.au/nla.oh-vn5811404 So... given that, would you suggest that, in this example, it would be appropriate for Trove to provide a WP citation OR to leave that citation to the NLA catalogue itself? (Please say if I'm not being clear, it's a complex question!). -Liam wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 10:56, Gnangarra gnanga...@gmail.com wrote: as to where the citation needs to available its any where from which editors draw information from Trove, including, newspapers, magazines, audio(http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/163116758) On 7 August 2013 18:33, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Mark, Nick, Gideon, In response to your points thus far, (and others - please send me any responses you have too!) The general gist, if I can put it this way, is the current cite code is working, don't fix it until it's broken. Which is good to hear :-) This answers my question no.1, but I'd be interested in feedback about question no.2 as well - which kinds of records in both the Trove and NLA search results would be actually useful for having this citation code appear. For example - here http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2540625 is the NLA catalogue reference for Harry Potter book 1. Clicking 'cite this' pulls up a WP code as well. My educated guess is that this code (and the equivalent in Trove) is neither useful for the NLA nor for WP. Am I right in this? Are newspaper articles the ONLY time wikimedians will use this citation code, or are there other cases that are beneficial (e.g. unique materials in the NLA that have no ISBN)? Mark, with regards to the formatting (underscores, capitalisation) this is something that I believe Grahame has already submitted a comprehensive series of bug reports for to the Trove team. The issue there is not so much the citation system itself but Trove's record naming structure and, more generally, the long list of higher priority bugs that are not as easily manually worked-around. As for the clipboard issue - this is a clear way of summarising my primary concern, thanks for framing it so neatly. I've subsequently asked it in those terms over on Mediawiki.org too. Nick, thank you too. WRT some ability to make uploads of images more direct might be cool - but as Gnang says, many of the files available in Trove aren't actually from the NLA and also many are in copyright (so a blanket system wouldn't be appropriate). -Liam wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 10:01, Nick Dowling nick_dowl...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Liam, I've used Trove for quite a few articles. In response to your questions: 1) Given that experienced Wikipedia editors are still mainly using wiki code, and will probably do so for some time, the pre-filled wiki mark up remains very useful. 2) I agree that this functionality is mainly useful for newspaper articles and the like. Something to support uploads of images into Commons would also be very useful, but would be less-used I suspect. I hope that's helpful. Regards, Nick -- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:07:17 +1000 From: liamwy...@gmail.com To: wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
I just want to point out a slight variation on the cites provided by these two URLs: http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/5811404 http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/163116758?versionId=13644 compared to the newspaper one: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71368302 Note how the former two actually suggest their wikipedia cite may need adjusting. I think that would be perfect for the last one too. Obviously, linking to the Template: page like the first does would be a nice to have :-) -- Regards, Mark Hurd, B.Sc.(Ma.)(Hons.) ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
Nicely spotted Mark. Thanks. wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 12:48, Mark Hurd markeh...@gmail.com wrote: I just want to point out a slight variation on the cites provided by these two URLs: http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/5811404 http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/163116758?versionId=13644 compared to the newspaper one: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71368302 Note how the former two actually suggest their wikipedia cite may need adjusting. I think that would be perfect for the last one too. Obviously, linking to the Template: page like the first does would be a nice to have :-) -- Regards, Mark Hurd, B.Sc.(Ma.)(Hons.) ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
Indeed, I've submitted bug reports to the NLA about the Wikipedia citation formatting. In addition to what Liam said, they're not so easy to fix automatically ... Graham On 7/08/2013 6:33 PM, Liam Wyatt wrote: Thanks Mark, Nick, Gideon, In response to your points thus far, (and others - please send me any responses you have too!) The general gist, if I can put it this way, is the current cite code is working, don't fix it until it's broken. Which is good to hear :-) This answers my question no.1, but I'd be interested in feedback about question no.2 as well - which kinds of records in both the Trove and NLA search results would be actually useful for having this citation code appear. For example - here http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2540625 is the NLA catalogue reference for Harry Potter book 1. Clicking 'cite this' pulls up a WP code as well. My educated guess is that this code (and the equivalent in Trove) is neither useful for the NLA nor for WP. Am I right in this? Are newspaper articles the ONLY time wikimedians will use this citation code, or are there other cases that are beneficial (e.g. unique materials in the NLA that have no ISBN)? Mark, with regards to the formatting (underscores, capitalisation) this is something that I believe Grahame has already submitted a comprehensive series of bug reports for to the Trove team. The issue there is not so much the citation system itself but Trove's record naming structure and, more generally, the long list of higher priority bugs that are not as easily manually worked-around. As for the clipboard issue - this is a clear way of summarising my primary concern, thanks for framing it so neatly. I've subsequently asked it in those terms over on Mediawiki.org too. Nick, thank you too. WRT some ability to make uploads of images more direct might be cool - but as Gnang says, many of the files available in Trove aren't actually from the NLA and also many are in copyright (so a blanket system wouldn't be appropriate). -Liam wittylama.com http://wittylama.com Peace, love metadata On 7 August 2013 10:01, Nick Dowling nick_dowl...@hotmail.com mailto:nick_dowl...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Liam, I've used Trove for quite a few articles. In response to your questions: 1) Given that experienced Wikipedia editors are still mainly using wiki code, and will probably do so for some time, the pre-filled wiki mark up remains very useful. 2) I agree that this functionality is mainly useful for newspaper articles and the like. Something to support uploads of images into Commons would also be very useful, but would be less-used I suspect. I hope that's helpful. Regards, Nick Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:07:17 +1000 From: liamwy...@gmail.com mailto:liamwy...@gmail.com To: wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process - part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some feedback: 1) What effect does the Visual Editor have on the provision of this kind of code. Is it even useful anymore to provide pre-filled wiki markup? 2) Which kinds of results are useful to have this service provided, and which are irrelevant? I believe the best use-case is for individual newspaper articles within Trove. However, I believe that there is little/no value in providing this service for individual book results in the NLA catalogue search (because WP just wants the ISBN, not the fact that it's in any individual library's collection). However - what about manuscripts, music scores, unpublished collections of personal papers, digitised maps Is it useful to have this service provided in those circumstances? -Liam / Wittylama (In this case I'm asking from my professional capacity as employee of the NLA) -- wittylama.com http://wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman
Re: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
I've never used a NLA generated citation template, but have added many
templates generated by Diberri's template filler, the google books tool,
DOIBot and by hand. (RDBrown)
Like the British Library, Library of Congress, Worldcat or Google the
NLA doesn't (from a quick look) provide structured metadata on the
catalog entry webpages.
(View Page Info in Firefox). It will provide book title and author in
the description array.
The ABC provides Dublin Core metadata and there is the Publishing
Requirements for Industry Standard Metadata
http://prismstandard.org/namespaces/1.2/basic/
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/5811404/Details?
Making the guess that the catalog librarian's view data is MARC I'd suggest
Adding a dc.identifier MARC001:5811404 tag (where the number is the
catalog entry number)
If not already available, provide a URL where the catalog entry may be
downloaded as XML for which ever standard wraps it.
For periodicals like Trove newspapers, provide dc.date, maybe
prism.{volume,number,startingpage}
If possible open source the existing tools for mapping MARC? data to
citation formats.
So rather than attempting to support particular citation formats,
provide metadata and access to structured catalog data so that browser
plugins or other tools can be used to format them as they require.
Providing a precedent for doing so could also be valuable.
Does Koha provide any tools for this kind of thing? What metadata do
they provide?
I'd ask Brianna Laugher's opinion of this suggestion too - if it's worth
considering.
On 07/08/13 20:33, Liam Wyatt wrote:
Thanks Mark, Nick, Gideon,
In response to your points thus far, (and others - please send me any
responses you have too!)
The general gist, if I can put it this way, is the current cite code
is working, don't fix it until it's broken. Which is good to hear :-)
This answers my question no.1, but I'd be interested in feedback about
question no.2 as well - which kinds of records in both the Trove and
NLA search results would be actually useful for having this citation
code appear. For example - here
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2540625 is the NLA catalogue
reference for Harry Potter book 1. Clicking 'cite this' pulls up a WP
code as well. My educated guess is that this code (and the equivalent
in Trove) is neither useful for the NLA nor for WP. Am I right in
this? Are newspaper articles the ONLY time wikimedians will use this
citation code, or are there other cases that are beneficial (e.g.
unique materials in the NLA that have no ISBN)?
Mark, with regards to the formatting (underscores, capitalisation)
this is something that I believe Grahame has already submitted a
comprehensive series of bug reports for to the Trove team. The issue
there is not so much the citation system itself but Trove's record
naming structure and, more generally, the long list of higher priority
bugs that are not as easily manually worked-around.
As for the clipboard issue - this is a clear way of summarising my
primary concern, thanks for framing it so neatly. I've subsequently
asked it in those terms over on Mediawiki.org too.
Nick, thank you too. WRT some ability to make uploads of images more
direct might be cool - but as Gnang says, many of the files available
in Trove aren't actually from the NLA and also many are in copyright
(so a blanket system wouldn't be appropriate).
-Liam
wittylama.com http://wittylama.com
Peace, love metadata
On 7 August 2013 10:01, Nick Dowling nick_dowl...@hotmail.com
mailto:nick_dowl...@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Liam,
I've used Trove for quite a few articles. In response to your
questions:
1) Given that experienced Wikipedia editors are still mainly using
wiki code, and will probably do so for some time, the pre-filled
wiki mark up remains very useful.
2) I agree that this functionality is mainly useful for newspaper
articles and the like. Something to support uploads of images into
Commons would also be very useful, but would be less-used I suspect.
I hope that's helpful.
Regards,
Nick
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:07:17 +1000
From: liamwy...@gmail.com mailto:liamwy...@gmail.com
To: wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service
include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all
search results (along with permalink, and various
standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently
in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process
- part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful
where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP
citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some
[Wikimediaau-l] WP citations in NLA/Trove
As many of you know, the National Library and its Trove service include a WP citation code in the cite this drop down in all search results (along with permalink, and various standardised footnoting styles). At the Library we are currently in the midst of a very broad tech and database integration process - part of which is revisiting what kinds of citations are useful where. I'm going to a meeting next week to discuss where the WP citation sits within this and I'd really appreciate some feedback: 1) What effect does the Visual Editor have on the provision of this kind of code. Is it even useful anymore to provide pre-filled wiki markup? 2) Which kinds of results are useful to have this service provided, and which are irrelevant? I believe the best use-case is for individual newspaper articles within Trove. However, I believe that there is little/no value in providing this service for individual book results in the NLA catalogue search (because WP just wants the ISBN, not the fact that it's in any individual library's collection). However - what about manuscripts, music scores, unpublished collections of personal papers, digitised maps Is it useful to have this service provided in those circumstances? -Liam / Wittylama (In this case I'm asking from my professional capacity as employee of the NLA) -- wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
