Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Craig Franklin]

Nifty!  Much more attractive than my list - did you use a bot or a tool to 
generate this, or was it all done by hand?

Cheers,
Craig

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PO Box 1093
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Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, 
and Culture.


- Original Message - 
From: "K. Peachey" 
To: "Wikimedia-au" 
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:12 PM
Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


>>> Still, doing this groundwork can be useful for
>>> other things, namely, identifying that the articles on some of our 
>>> earlier
>>> Prime Ministers could use a bit of spit and polish.
> Here is a table of all their current rankings
> [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Schools_Selection]]
> It lists their WP Aus, WikiProject Australian politics and their WP Bio 
> rankings
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[K. Peachey]

2008/12/14 Nathan Carter :
> Still, it will all help.
> Cheers!
>
> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:41 PM, K. Peachey  wrote:
>>
>> 2008/12/14 Nathan Carter :
>> > Which state did you undertake your education in?
>> QLD, but i might only have some stuff from last year and this year
>> (11/12) left and i didn't do that many OP courses =(
I found everything i could in my digital collection and filing
cabinet, some of it is a tad too detailed, some could possibly never
be covered ect but i just stuck it all up at
[[User:Peachey88/Sandbox/009]]

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nathan Carter]

Still, it will all help.
Cheers!

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:41 PM, K. Peachey  wrote:

> 2008/12/14 Nathan Carter :
> > Which state did you undertake your education in?
> QLD, but i might only have some stuff from last year and this year
> (11/12) left and i didn't do that many OP courses =(
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[K. Peachey]

2008/12/14 Nathan Carter :
> Which state did you undertake your education in?
QLD, but i might only have some stuff from last year and this year
(11/12) left and i didn't do that many OP courses =(

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nathan Carter]

Which state did you undertake your education in?

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 1:27 PM, K. Peachey  wrote:

> I could probably dig out some of my past school work and make a list
> of what i did and we could expand on that and use that as a basis,
> although i didn't do that much "Australian" stuff.
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[K. Peachey]

>> Still, doing this groundwork can be useful for
>> other things, namely, identifying that the articles on some of our earlier
>> Prime Ministers could use a bit of spit and polish.
Here is a table of all their current rankings
[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Schools_Selection]]
It lists their WP Aus, WikiProject Australian politics and their WP Bio rankings

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[K. Peachey]

I could probably dig out some of my past school work and make a list
of what i did and we could expand on that and use that as a basis,
although i didn't do that much "Australian" stuff.

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nathan Carter]

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Craig Franklin  wrote:

> Oh, definitely.  Unfortunately most of my contacts in Education Queensland
> are off on holidays right now, and probably won't be back until the new
> year.  I'd imagine this is probably the case in all of the other state
> education bureaucracies.

It's great to hear someone has contacts within Queensland Education. NSW DET
commences holidays at the end of this week, however most bureaucratic and
support staff will only have around a week and a half brake.


> Still, doing this groundwork can be useful for
> other things, namely, identifying that the articles on some of our earlier
> Prime Ministers could use a bit of spit and polish.
>
I agree.
Cheers,
Nathan.
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nathan Carter]

I have been doing some work on matching the NSW syllabus with Australian
articles -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cartman02au/Syllabus_Article_Matching. I
am looking at creating something that we can show to educators and get their
feedback.
Cheers,
Nathan
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Craig Franklin]

Oh, definitely.  Unfortunately most of my contacts in Education Queensland 
are off on holidays right now, and probably won't be back until the new 
year.  I'd imagine this is probably the case in all of the other state 
education bureaucracies.  Still, doing this groundwork can be useful for 
other things, namely, identifying that the articles on some of our earlier 
Prime Ministers could use a bit of spit and polish.

And yeah, the proposed audience for this is different to that of the 
original SOS Children selection; because I think that Australian students 
(and Australian teachers and educators!) could make good use of this 
resource as well.

Cheers,
Craig


---
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PO Box 1093
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Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, 
and Culture.


- Original Message - 
From: "David Gerard" 
To: "Wikimedia-au" 
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:19 AM
Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


> 2008/12/13 Craig Franklin :
>
>> Well, I just went through all the Australian Prime Minister articles to 
>> see
>> what state they were in - I expect that we'd ideally want to include all 
>> of
>> these if possible.  It took me about half an hour to do, although some of
>> that was spent messing with templates and the like.  The results are 
>> here:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Schools_Selection/Article_Assessment_Workspace
>> In addition to seeing what we ideally should include, it also gives a 
>> good
>> idea on how good our coverage on this topic is (my verdict: good, but 
>> could
>> be better).
>
>
> Might be worth asking some schools and teachers: "Look, would this be
> useful for you?"
>
> The impetus for the SOS Children selection was to make an encyclopedia
> for them to use in their own schools in third-world countries, i.e.
> they had a specific use in mind. The choice of the English National
> Curriculum was just as a handy standard to work to.
>
> So "who's this for" would be useful to check :-)
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[David Gerard]

2008/12/13 Craig Franklin :

> Well, I just went through all the Australian Prime Minister articles to see
> what state they were in - I expect that we'd ideally want to include all of
> these if possible.  It took me about half an hour to do, although some of
> that was spent messing with templates and the like.  The results are here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Schools_Selection/Article_Assessment_Workspace
> In addition to seeing what we ideally should include, it also gives a good
> idea on how good our coverage on this topic is (my verdict: good, but could
> be better).


Might be worth asking some schools and teachers: "Look, would this be
useful for you?"

The impetus for the SOS Children selection was to make an encyclopedia
for them to use in their own schools in third-world countries, i.e.
they had a specific use in mind. The choice of the English National
Curriculum was just as a handy standard to work to.

So "who's this for" would be useful to check :-)


- d.

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Craig Franklin]

MessageWell, I just went through all the Australian Prime Minister articles to 
see what state they were in - I expect that we'd ideally want to include all of 
these if possible.  It took me about half an hour to do, although some of that 
was spent messing with templates and the like.  The results are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Schools_Selection/Article_Assessment_Workspace

In addition to seeing what we ideally should include, it also gives a good idea 
on how good our coverage on this topic is (my verdict: good, but could be 
better).  

How do I envision this being delivered?  Hopefully we can stick it on some 
hosting somewhere, put it under the WMAU domain name, and give teachers that 
address (hopefully getting it whitelisted by the various state education 
departments).  We then put prominently on the main page "There are 2.5 million 
more articles at http://en.wikipedia.org";.

With that said, it's a fair chunk of work, although a good percentage of the 
legwork has been done by the team that put together the existing Schools 
Selection; it's an excellent base to build upon and they have really done a 
fantastic job.  To use an encyclopædia analogy, I see this project as an 
offering extra volume or two to a general encyclopædia for specifically 
Australian subjects.

So what has to be done?  Ideally, we find out what teachers and educators want, 
and include that content.  If any of those topics are poorly covered or not 
covered at all, we collaborate to improve that content (this is a benefit that 
flows back into the main WP project, as well).  Once we have our selection, we 
pick "good" revisions that do not have any vandalism, are properly cited, etc.  
We make a copy of them somewhere (a private Wiki, perhaps), and remove anything 
WP-specific that doesn't make sense on a partial snapshot copy, such as 
disambig headers.  We also remove any unfree media that might be in the 
article.  We add in a link at the bottom of each page to the "live" version of 
the article on the main WP site.  We do any copyediting that has to be done.

Now, doing all this will be a pretty big job, but I'm sure its nothing we can't 
handle.  The big challenge at this point is talking to educators and finding 
out what they want.

In any case, I'm open to ideas, as I'm sure there are things I've not 
considered yet.  I don't have any special claims of ownership over this little 
mini-project, so if ýou're interested, please go and edit the page and jot down 
your own thoughts!

Cheers,
Craig




---
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PO Box 1093
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Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, and 
Culture.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Pru Mitchell 
  To: 'Wikimedia-au' 
  Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 9:53 AM
  Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


  Thanks Craig
  I can see some real potential here as a 'bridge' for schools coming to terms 
with concepts such as Wikipedia, and also for those with access issues 
(filters, bandwidth and costs). 
  How long do you envisage such a project would take? How much work do you 
think is involved?
  It may be possible to organise some assistance with this, but I don't have 
any concept of what process would be followed to develop this project.
  Could you give some 'how to' information as background?

  Many thanks, Pru
  Pru Mitchell 
  ph: 0433 551 204 
  me: me.edu.au/p/pru 
  e: pru.mitch...@bigpond.com 


-Original Message-
From: wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Craig Franklin
Sent: Thursday, 11 December 2008 9:38 PM
To: Wikimedia-au
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


Okay, there seems to be a bit of interest here, so I've boldly created a 
subpage for planning:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Schools_Selection

At the moment it's really just my thoughts on the subject, but as the 
advice on the edit page says; feel free to edit it mercilessly.

Cheers,
Craig

---
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PO Box 1093
Toombul, Q, 4012
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, 
and Culture.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Gnangarra 
  To: Wikimedia-au 
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:43 PM
  Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


  I'd be up for that, cant let it have solely an Eastern States POV :)


  2008/12/11 K. Peachey 

> Anyone for a mini-project then? =).  The existing SOS selection looks 
like
> it'll be a good base, but adding more "Au

Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Pru Mitchell]

Thanks Craig
I can see some real potential here as a 'bridge' for schools coming to terms
with concepts such as Wikipedia, and also for those with access issues
(filters, bandwidth and costs). 
How long do you envisage such a project would take? How much work do you
think is involved?
It may be possible to organise some assistance with this, but I don't have
any concept of what process would be followed to develop this project.
Could you give some 'how to' information as background?
 
Many thanks, Pru
Pru Mitchell 
ph: 0433 551 204 
me:  <http://me.edu.au/p/pru> me.edu.au/p/pru 
e:  <mailto:pru.mitch...@bigpond.com> pru.mitch...@bigpond.com 

 

-Original Message-
From: wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Craig
Franklin
Sent: Thursday, 11 December 2008 9:38 PM
To: Wikimedia-au
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


Okay, there seems to be a bit of interest here, so I've boldly created a
subpage for planning:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Scho
ols_Selection
 
At the moment it's really just my thoughts on the subject, but as the advice
on the edit page says; feel free to edit it mercilessly.
 
Cheers,
Craig
 
---
Craig Franklin
PO Box 1093
Toombul, Q, 4012
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.
 
 

- Original Message - 
From: Gnangarra <mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com>  
To: Wikimedia-au <mailto:wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org>  
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:43 PM
Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

I'd be up for that, cant let it have solely an Eastern States POV :)


2008/12/11 K. Peachey 


> Anyone for a mini-project then? =).  The existing SOS selection looks like
> it'll be a good base, but adding more "Australian" themed articles to it
> would probably be a nice attention grabber when we go talking to schools.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig

I would be! maybe a task-force for WikiProject Australia?
And we would have to decide what "Australian" contents gets in, eg:
iconic/well known tv shows/what history content gets in.


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nathan Carter]

Indeed.
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:54 PM, Craig Franklin  wrote:

> I really like this product, but maybe we should look at providing a tweaked
> version for Australian schools with more "Australian" topics (ie: less
> American Presidents and more Australian Prime Ministers).
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> ---
> Craig Franklin
> PO Box 1093
> Toombul, Q, 4012
> Australia
> http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
> and Culture.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Gerard" 
> To: "Wikimedia-au" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:18 PM
> Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools
>
>
> > Something that we can and should suggest also is the SOS Wikipedia
> > Selection for Schools, all of which has been screened for educational
> > relevance and classroom suitability:
> >
> > http://schools-wikipedia.org/
> >
> > Anyone who gets a DVD or memory stick of it can run off copies as needed.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Gnangarra]

Think you missed the point of what I proposed, there would be an extreme
minority of schools without any net access. IMHO it would be reasonable to
presume that if a school doesnt have net access for their students then its
unlikely that the teachers are going to use Wikipedia with the class
enviroment, the teachers probably wont even use WP a major resource either.

As for the other points I rasised I know we do these things already, what
I'm saying is rather then create a CD/DVD with articles we select on it, we
create one which empowers the teachers to create there own focused on what
they want.  We need to remember that many teachers arent Wiki literate nor
should we expect them to understand how the community works.

The idea is that we create a guide for them on how to use Wikimedia
resources both on and off line. That includes showing them how to identify
articles and how relaible the information is, how to track the actions of
their students and where to seek help when they need it.

2008/12/11 Liam Wyatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> None of these things require a stable version online or offline. They
> are things that we already do with regards to Wikipedia proper.
> >
> > We show them how to identify article quality and what the class
> > rating indicates, including what deficiencies are.
> We should be doing this already with "normal" WP
> > How to read article historys to identify the version that they are
> > using
> Ditto
> > Cover copyright issues both for articles, and images what the
> > requirements are for a class room disc.
> Copyright is already ok. There is no problems for this - even for
> Fair Use because classroom use is perfectly acceptable.
> > High light the sourcing//verifiability of articles.
> We should already be doing this with "normal" WP
> >
> > Also cover editing basics, norms for user interaction, where to get
> > what type of help when online
>
> Ditto
>
>
> -Liam
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Liam Wyatt]

None of these things require a stable version online or offline. They  
are things that we already do with regards to Wikipedia proper.
>
> We show them how to identify article quality and what the class  
> rating indicates, including what deficiencies are.
We should be doing this already with "normal" WP
> How to read article historys to identify the version that they are  
> using
Ditto
> Cover copyright issues both for articles, and images what the  
> requirements are for a class room disc.
Copyright is already ok. There is no problems for this - even for  
Fair Use because classroom use is perfectly acceptable.
> High light the sourcing//verifiability of articles.
We should already be doing this with "normal" WP
>
> Also cover editing basics, norms for user interaction, where to get  
> what type of help when online

Ditto


-Liam 

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Gnangarra]

What if rather than a fixed format CD/DVD for every school we create a
sample with instructions that enables teachers to make customised versions
to suit their style of teaching, the age group, and intended subject area.

We show them how to identify article quality and what the class rating
indicates, including what deficiencies are.

How to read article historys to identify the version that they are using

Cover copyright issues both for articles, and images what the requirements
are for a class room disc.

High light the sourcing//verifiability of articles.

Also cover editing basics, norms for user interaction, where to get what
type of help when online

2008/12/11 Craig Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>  I think you've misinterpreted what I'm proposing.  I agree with you in
> regards to "offline content", it takes away entirely one of the chief
> advantages of an online encyclopaedia - that is, being up to date.  If this
> project happens, I fully support the main mode of delivery being a website
> that students can access, and which can be periodically updated (although a
> download is probably still a good idea for the handful of places where an
> online interactive site can't be supported, such as extremely remote schools
> with limited or no internet connectivity).
>
> In response to your specific questions:
>
> 1) I've talked to two teachers in the past few days, and asked them
> specifically for their thoughts on Wikipedia.  One said "there's porn on
> that site, so we don't allow students to use it at school", and the other
> cited the usual concerns about data being incorrect, incomplete, etc.  I
> realise that the opinions of two teachers don't cover the opinions of all
> teachers, but I'd wager that their views are not unusual.  As we all know,
> neither of these concerns are particularly true, but nevertheless, the
> perception continues to persist.
>
> 2) I think that highlighting Wikipedia's best content and delivering it is
> a laudable endeavour.  There's lots of great content, but there's also lots
> of not-so-great content.  While we work on getting the not-so-great stuff up
> to scratch, why not provide a sample of the good stuff to get people
> interested?  Especially if we can tie in the good content with topics
> teachers want to teach.  It can also be a useful tool to find out what
> content we need to concentrate on improving (that is, what the general
> public, our "customers", are interested in).
>
> 3) Obviously, we'd have to talk to education departments to see what they
> want.  But even without talking to them, it's obvious that there are some
> gaps, which it won't take that much effort to fill in.
>
> 4) See my comments above.  This is an entirely separate issue, in my view.
>
> I'm well aware that with all things, there will be disagreement on whether
> this is a suitable use of our time.  However, my view is that this will cost
> WMau nothing, not take up that much work (relatively speaking), and can
> possibly lead to some good press, help spread the knowledge around, and
> perhaps help recruit the next generation of Wiki-contributors.
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
> ---
> Craig Franklin
> PO Box 1093
> Toombul, Q, 4012
> Australia
> http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
> and Culture.
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Peter Halasz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* Wikimedia-au 
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:22 PM
> *Subject:* [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools
>
> Basically there are three issues being discussed: censorship, cut down
> wikipedia for schools, and an offline wikipedia.
>
> The schools issue is also confused. What is its purpose? Are we talking
> censoring images? Protecting children from dangerous information? Legal
> concerns? or are we trying to create textbooks? Use more appropriate
> (simpler) language? Create an offline Wikipedia? Filter content for children
> who are not old enough to tell nonsense from fact? Pick the best revision of
> an article for children? I don't see (which is) the purpose.
>
> But here's my two cents on these issues all the same:
>
> 1) We should be working with schools and concerned parents on these issues.
> We're not exactly being preemptive with schools anyway: Schools have been
> using Wikipedia for years, often having specific policies relating to its
> use in assignments. So before we do anything, we should be talking with
> schools. Do schools even have an issue with explicit images on Wikipedia?
> This thread was started by ISPs in England censoring Wikipedia -- not

Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Craig Franklin]

I think you've misinterpreted what I'm proposing.  I agree with you in regards 
to "offline content", it takes away entirely one of the chief advantages of an 
online encyclopaedia - that is, being up to date.  If this project happens, I 
fully support the main mode of delivery being a website that students can 
access, and which can be periodically updated (although a download is probably 
still a good idea for the handful of places where an online interactive site 
can't be supported, such as extremely remote schools with limited or no 
internet connectivity).

In response to your specific questions:

1) I've talked to two teachers in the past few days, and asked them 
specifically for their thoughts on Wikipedia.  One said "there's porn on that 
site, so we don't allow students to use it at school", and the other cited the 
usual concerns about data being incorrect, incomplete, etc.  I realise that the 
opinions of two teachers don't cover the opinions of all teachers, but I'd 
wager that their views are not unusual.  As we all know, neither of these 
concerns are particularly true, but nevertheless, the perception continues to 
persist.

2) I think that highlighting Wikipedia's best content and delivering it is a 
laudable endeavour.  There's lots of great content, but there's also lots of 
not-so-great content.  While we work on getting the not-so-great stuff up to 
scratch, why not provide a sample of the good stuff to get people interested?  
Especially if we can tie in the good content with topics teachers want to 
teach.  It can also be a useful tool to find out what content we need to 
concentrate on improving (that is, what the general public, our "customers", 
are interested in).

3) Obviously, we'd have to talk to education departments to see what they want. 
 But even without talking to them, it's obvious that there are some gaps, which 
it won't take that much effort to fill in.

4) See my comments above.  This is an entirely separate issue, in my view.

I'm well aware that with all things, there will be disagreement on whether this 
is a suitable use of our time.  However, my view is that this will cost WMau 
nothing, not take up that much work (relatively speaking), and can possibly 
lead to some good press, help spread the knowledge around, and perhaps help 
recruit the next generation of Wiki-contributors.

Regards,
Craig


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http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, and 
Culture.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Peter Halasz 
  To: Wikimedia-au 
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:22 PM
  Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


  Basically there are three issues being discussed: censorship, cut down 
wikipedia for schools, and an offline wikipedia.

  The schools issue is also confused. What is its purpose? Are we talking 
censoring images? Protecting children from dangerous information? Legal 
concerns? or are we trying to create textbooks? Use more appropriate (simpler) 
language? Create an offline Wikipedia? Filter content for children who are not 
old enough to tell nonsense from fact? Pick the best revision of an article for 
children? I don't see (which is) the purpose.

  But here's my two cents on these issues all the same:

  1) We should be working with schools and concerned parents on these issues. 
We're not exactly being preemptive with schools anyway: Schools have been using 
Wikipedia for years, often having specific policies relating to its use in 
assignments. So before we do anything, we should be talking with schools. Do 
schools even have an issue with explicit images on Wikipedia? This thread was 
started by ISPs in England censoring Wikipedia -- not schools. Would hiding 
images be enough, or do they want entire articles censored? Are they happy 
enough censoring it themselves, or do they want more precise filters (e.g. 
removing/hiding images). 

  2) a schools wikipedia should not simply be a "whitelist" of "good pages" -- 
there are 2.5 million articles and we're not going to classify each one. For 
one it's far easier to blacklist, and then you're just censoring. 

  3) But if you want to pretend that a cutdown wikipedia is different to a 
censored Wikipedia .. A cutdown pedia needs a specific curriculum. I believe 
schools-wikipedia is based on some UK curriculum. If we make one for Australian 
schools (which I do not personally think is a great idea) it needs to be based 
on topics from Australian cirricula (and every state has its own). Probably 
should be based on an age group (because I really don't think year 12's need a 
special cutdown 'pedia) It also needs to be based on demand from schools, 
parents and students (see #1), which I'

Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Peter Halasz]

Ok so you're not convinced that an offline version is a bad idea. Here's how
it should be done (in my not-so-humble opinion)

Basically, it should work like the online Wikipedia as much as possible

That means you view it in your browser using the same URLs.

I imagine this can be done with [[Gears (software)]] (previously known as
Google Gears), which adds a bunch of offline functionality to web browsers
for web sites that wish to utilise it.

Users could view pages online, and have them cached so they work "offline".
(this might work with browsers already with normal caching). The hard part
would be to allow offline editing, and then syncing when you get online
again (with the appropriate prompts and diffs if the target article has
since changed). But I imagine this would be possible using Gears.

Additional functionality could include: downloading all articles from a
plain text list of article names (which could be, for example, drawn from a
school curriculum), and storing these in the offlline cache, allowing
updating from the net when there is access. Specific reversions should be
selectable as well. Individual teachers may draw up lists, or use lists
developed by groups or organisations (who might make the list of articles on
a Wiki).

Allowing the offline cache to be copied would mean anyone can easily make a
"DVD" version of Wikipedia, without creating something entirely separate
from WIkipedia, and therefore not creating something which is instantly out
of date, incomplete, and uneditable.

I have not (intentially) mentioned any form of whitelisting nor blacklisting
(censorship) nor Wikipedia 1.0, nor Australian content, as those things are
separate issues, which have little to do with offline browsing and editing
of Wikipedia.

If there are keen developers and/or resources to get it done, I think
creating an offline Gears-based Wikipedia would be preferable to a plain
HTML based one, or one requiring the setup of a fork using Mediawiki
software.

However, for Australia, I think we should be pushing for better, cheaper
internet access to schools and homes rather than working around the problem.

Peter Halasz
User:Pengo
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Peter Halasz]

Basically there are three issues being discussed: censorship, cut down
wikipedia for schools, and an offline wikipedia.

The schools issue is also confused. What is its purpose? Are we talking
censoring images? Protecting children from dangerous information? Legal
concerns? or are we trying to create textbooks? Use more appropriate
(simpler) language? Create an offline Wikipedia? Filter content for children
who are not old enough to tell nonsense from fact? Pick the best revision of
an article for children? I don't see (which is) the purpose.

But here's my two cents on these issues all the same:

1) We should be working with schools and concerned parents on these issues.
We're not exactly being preemptive with schools anyway: Schools have been
using Wikipedia for years, often having specific policies relating to its
use in assignments. So before we do anything, we should be talking with
schools. Do schools even have an issue with explicit images on Wikipedia?
This thread was started by ISPs in England censoring Wikipedia -- not
schools. Would hiding images be enough, or do they want entire articles
censored? Are they happy enough censoring it themselves, or do they want
more precise filters (e.g. removing/hiding images).

2) a schools wikipedia should not simply be a "whitelist" of "good pages" --
there are 2.5 million articles and we're not going to classify each one. For
one it's far easier to blacklist, and then you're just censoring.

3) But if you want to pretend that a cutdown wikipedia is different to a
censored Wikipedia .. A cutdown pedia needs a specific curriculum. I believe
schools-wikipedia is based on some UK curriculum. If we make one for
Australian schools (which I do not personally think is a great idea) it
needs to be based on topics from Australian cirricula (and every state has
its own). Probably should be based on an age group (because I really don't
think year 12's need a special cutdown 'pedia) It also needs to be based on
demand from schools, parents and students (see #1), which I'm not aware of.
Also, it seems to be a massive waste of effort, as it's just going to be a
poorer version of the full Wikipedia. What is the specific need we're
addressing? (see questions at top) If there's content school kids shouldn't
be allowed to see, then we need to work with schools. If there's a need for
offline viewing, then there's probably a better way than putting HTML on a
DVD.

4) a CD/DVD/USB stick offline version of Wikipedia fails in a number of
fundamental ways. Apart from being inherently incomplete, uneditable and
immediately out of date, the only real purpose is to make Wikipedia
available where there isn't internet access. This is an odd way of making
the internet available where there isn't internet. In my opinion, lobbying
governments to give schools internet access would be more effective than
trying to tackle the impossible task of turning a massive, dynamic,
interactive website (Wikipedia) into a DVD. (What came of the German DVD
anyway? Honest question, not retorical)

I'm writing another message on how I think an offline WIkipedia could
possibly work, in a general way, if there are keen developers and/or
resources to get it done.

Basically, what is the driving force for a Schools Wikipedia Australia, and
who needs it?

Peter Halasz
User:Pengo
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Craig Franklin]

Okay, there seems to be a bit of interest here, so I've boldly created a 
subpage for planning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia/Australian_Schools_Selection

At the moment it's really just my thoughts on the subject, but as the advice on 
the edit page says; feel free to edit it mercilessly.

Cheers,
Craig

---
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PO Box 1093
Toombul, Q, 4012
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, and 
Culture.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Gnangarra 
  To: Wikimedia-au 
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:43 PM
  Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


  I'd be up for that, cant let it have solely an Eastern States POV :)


  2008/12/11 K. Peachey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Anyone for a mini-project then? =).  The existing SOS selection looks like
> it'll be a good base, but adding more "Australian" themed articles to it
> would probably be a nice attention grabber when we go talking to schools.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig

I would be! maybe a task-force for WikiProject Australia?
And we would have to decide what "Australian" contents gets in, eg:
iconic/well known tv shows/what history content gets in.


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Gnangarra]

I'd be up for that, cant let it have solely an Eastern States POV :)

2008/12/11 K. Peachey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> > Anyone for a mini-project then? =).  The existing SOS selection looks
> like
> > it'll be a good base, but adding more "Australian" themed articles to it
> > would probably be a nice attention grabber when we go talking to schools.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Craig
> I would be! maybe a task-force for WikiProject Australia?
> And we would have to decide what "Australian" contents gets in, eg:
> iconic/well known tv shows/what history content gets in.
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[K. Peachey]

> Anyone for a mini-project then? =).  The existing SOS selection looks like
> it'll be a good base, but adding more "Australian" themed articles to it
> would probably be a nice attention grabber when we go talking to schools.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
I would be! maybe a task-force for WikiProject Australia?
And we would have to decide what "Australian" contents gets in, eg:
iconic/well known tv shows/what history content gets in.

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Craig Franklin]

Anyone for a mini-project then? =).  The existing SOS selection looks like 
it'll be a good base, but adding more "Australian" themed articles to it would 
probably be a nice attention grabber when we go talking to schools.

Cheers,
Craig

---
Craig Franklin
PO Box 1093
Toombul, Q, 4012
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, and 
Culture.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Orderinchaos78 
  To: Wikimedia-au 
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:20 AM
  Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


  Perhaps that's something the WMA could commit to working towards? I think 
that would be quite a reasonable outcome.


  2008/12/10 Craig Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I really like this product, but maybe we should look at providing a tweaked
version for Australian schools with more "Australian" topics (ie: less
American Presidents and more Australian Prime Ministers).

Cheers,
Craig

---
Craig Franklin
PO Box 1093
Toombul, Q, 4012
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
and Culture.



- Original Message -
From: "David Gerard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Wikimedia-au" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


> Something that we can and should suggest also is the SOS Wikipedia
> Selection for Schools, all of which has been screened for educational
> relevance and classroom suitability:
>
> http://schools-wikipedia.org/
>
> Anyone who gets a DVD or memory stick of it can run off copies as needed.
>
>
> - d.
>
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>


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[David Gerard]

Best approach is the way this was compiled: get a wikiproject of
Australians together, use the power of the wiki. Then it needs a
dedicated group to work at it.

WMAU will help as a name to talk to schools etc. about what they'd
like. The SOS selection is based on the English national curriculum,
someone could assemble a suitable mix of the various state standard
curricula.


- d.




2008/12/10 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> This is a great idea, I reckon - and I've got a few other ideas that might
> be interesting around this! (more anon) - it's interesting (to me anyways)
> to note though that recommending a 'schools wikipedia' does kind of imply
> that the actual wikipedia might not be a good fit for schools - doesn't it?

> 2008/12/11 Orderinchaos78 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>> Perhaps that's something the WMA could commit to working towards? I think
>> that would be quite a reasonable outcome.

>> 2008/12/10 Craig Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>>> I really like this product, but maybe we should look at providing a
>>> tweaked
>>> version for Australian schools with more "Australian" topics (ie: less
>>> American Presidents and more Australian Prime Ministers).

>>> From: "David Gerard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>>> > http://schools-wikipedia.org/

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[private musings]

This is a great idea, I reckon - and I've got a few other ideas that might
be interesting around this! (more anon) - it's interesting (to me anyways)
to note though that recommending a 'schools wikipedia' does kind of imply
that the actual wikipedia might not be a good fit for schools - doesn't it?



2008/12/11 Orderinchaos78 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Perhaps that's something the WMA could commit to working towards? I think
> that would be quite a reasonable outcome.
>
> 2008/12/10 Craig Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I really like this product, but maybe we should look at providing a tweaked
>> version for Australian schools with more "Australian" topics (ie: less
>> American Presidents and more Australian Prime Ministers).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Craig
>>
>> ---
>> Craig Franklin
>> PO Box 1093
>> Toombul, Q, 4012
>> Australia
>> http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music,
>> Art,
>> and Culture.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "David Gerard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Wikimedia-au" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:18 PM
>> Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools
>>
>>
>> > Something that we can and should suggest also is the SOS Wikipedia
>> > Selection for Schools, all of which has been screened for educational
>> > relevance and classroom suitability:
>> >
>> > http://schools-wikipedia.org/
>> >
>> > Anyone who gets a DVD or memory stick of it can run off copies as
>> needed.
>> >
>> >
>> > - d.
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikimediaau-l mailing list
>> > Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Orderinchaos78]

Perhaps that's something the WMA could commit to working towards? I think
that would be quite a reasonable outcome.

2008/12/10 Craig Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I really like this product, but maybe we should look at providing a tweaked
> version for Australian schools with more "Australian" topics (ie: less
> American Presidents and more Australian Prime Ministers).
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
> ---
> Craig Franklin
> PO Box 1093
> Toombul, Q, 4012
> Australia
> http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
> and Culture.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Gerard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Wikimedia-au" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:18 PM
> Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools
>
>
> > Something that we can and should suggest also is the SOS Wikipedia
> > Selection for Schools, all of which has been screened for educational
> > relevance and classroom suitability:
> >
> > http://schools-wikipedia.org/
> >
> > Anyone who gets a DVD or memory stick of it can run off copies as needed.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimediaau-l mailing list
> > Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Craig Franklin]

I really like this product, but maybe we should look at providing a tweaked 
version for Australian schools with more "Australian" topics (ie: less 
American Presidents and more Australian Prime Ministers).

Cheers,
Craig

---
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PO Box 1093
Toombul, Q, 4012
Australia
http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art, 
and Culture.


- Original Message - 
From: "David Gerard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Wikimedia-au" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:18 PM
Subject: [personal] Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools


> Something that we can and should suggest also is the SOS Wikipedia
> Selection for Schools, all of which has been screened for educational
> relevance and classroom suitability:
>
> http://schools-wikipedia.org/
>
> Anyone who gets a DVD or memory stick of it can run off copies as needed.
>
>
> - d.
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>
> 


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[David Gerard]

Something that we can and should suggest also is the SOS Wikipedia
Selection for Schools, all of which has been screened for educational
relevance and classroom suitability:

http://schools-wikipedia.org/

Anyone who gets a DVD or memory stick of it can run off copies as needed.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nick Jenkins]

> Lets look at this differently, Wikipedia/Foundation is about providing
> free access to all knowledge, how could someone who supports the
> project consider promoting censorship of the information?

Well, one argument would be "the lesser of two evils".

Suppose you have a choice between these two situations:
1) Schools opt not to include the Wikipedia in their syllabus (because
it contains content the teacher / the parents / the children may
offensive), so to avoid the whole minefield of issues, students are not
taught about the Wikipedia, and by extensions are not taught about free
access to all knowledge.
2) Schools teach the Wikipedia in their syllabus, and the concerns they
have about offensive content are handled as part of the wikipedia itself
with (e.g. there was a DVD project like this in Germany for schools a
year or so back that only included G-rated content, which is an
alternative white-list approach). These ratings/categories/whatever can
be shared between schools/states/countries, centralising the solution to
problem inside the Wikipedia (instead of pushing the problem out to the
nodes), and making the whole Wikipedia far more usable in our
under-resourced classrooms as an educational resource. Children are
taught about the Wikipedia, and by extension free access to knowledge.
And if they have enlightened and/or clueless parents, and if they find
something blocked at school, then they can view it at home, without any
restriction whatsoever.

Which of these situations does the most to promote free access to
knowledge? Sometimes you have a choice between two sucky alternatives,
and you choose the best option that you can (and not making a choice is
the same as de-facto making a choice - by not making a choice, you ARE
making a choice). In one situation you transparently police yourself. In
another you get idiots like the IWF opaquely policing you. In one
situation you give schools something they can work with to decide what
they don't want their students to see, in the other you get ignored
completely because "it's just too damn hard, and someone will complain,
and I don't have the budget to do this right, so let's just teach them
using whatever ancient pre-censored textbook we taught them with last
year".

-- All the best,
Nick.


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Gnangarra]

But that exactly what being suggested with filters,

When a Britannica representative goes to a school to sell their book they
dont talk about their encyclopaedia covering topics like penis, breast and
the definitely dont suggest the school takes those pages out the books. So
why should we?


2008/12/10 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I (think / hope) that what I'm suggesting is certainly not censorship in
> any way - more just the reasonable expectation that some of our content may
> raise an eyebrow in schools - and that it's a good idea to be mindful of
> this in our communications and work with them.
>
> By way of further illustration, here's an example of a good faith
> contributor at commons compiling a collection of some of his favourite
> shots;
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TwoWings/Fav#Sexy
>
> I think we're all big enough and ugly enough to accept that there's nothing
> wrong with this sort of thing, and that it's normal to enjoy eroticism - I
> think it's also perfectly fair enough for schools to want to be a bit
> careful with how they interact with this sort of material - maybe it's as
> simple as saying 'look, there's actually quite a lot of images on various
> wiki projects that you might not want your pupils to see / share / collect -
> and here's how you can help achieve this' - back to the directed projects,
> supervised access etc. I guess.
>
> best,
>
> Peter
> PM.
>
> another example doing the rounds is this one - 'not safe for work';
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaved_genitalia_(female)
>
> (by the way - if something's 'not safe for work' - presumably it's 'not
> safe for schools' either? dunno!)
>
>
>
> 2008/12/10 Gnangarra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Lets look at this differently, Wikipedia/Foundation is about providing
>> free access to all knowledge, how could someone who supports the project
>> consider promoting censorship of the information?
>>
>>
>>
>> 2008/12/10 Gnangarra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2008/12/10 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>


  though I would prefer there were better systems in place to
 ensure that the images are legal (ie. models consenting and of age), and
 that (per Nick) folk have some opportunity to self-select. I'd be inclined
 to support a flickr like 'please click here to indicate that you're of age
 to view this material' sort of thing, I think.

>>>
>>>
>>> Yep and every kid is going to just tick such a box anyway, the intention
>>> of the box is to dimish responsibility of the provider not to protect the
>>> viewer.
>>>
>>>

 cheers,

 Peter
 PM.




 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:28 AM, David Gerard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I must say, there's a certain appeal to attempting to forbid kids from
> reading encyclopedias, so they'll think it's cool.
>
>
> - d.
>
> ___
> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>


 ___
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> GN.
>>> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>>
>> ___
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>> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
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>


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[private musings]

ps. as a bit of a cheeky side note, does anyone else find the inclusion of
pregnant women and the family snaps a bit... um.. creepy.. here; (scroll
down)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Passiverebellion   ?

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:17 PM, private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I (think / hope) that what I'm suggesting is certainly not censorship in
> any way - more just the reasonable expectation that some of our content may
> raise an eyebrow in schools - and that it's a good idea to be mindful of
> this in our communications and work with them.
>
> By way of further illustration, here's an example of a good faith
> contributor at commons compiling a collection of some of his favourite
> shots;
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TwoWings/Fav#Sexy
>
> I think we're all big enough and ugly enough to accept that there's nothing
> wrong with this sort of thing, and that it's normal to enjoy eroticism - I
> think it's also perfectly fair enough for schools to want to be a bit
> careful with how they interact with this sort of material - maybe it's as
> simple as saying 'look, there's actually quite a lot of images on various
> wiki projects that you might not want your pupils to see / share / collect -
> and here's how you can help achieve this' - back to the directed projects,
> supervised access etc. I guess.
>
> best,
>
> Peter
> PM.
>
> another example doing the rounds is this one - 'not safe for work';
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaved_genitalia_(female)
>
> (by the way - if something's 'not safe for work' - presumably it's 'not
> safe for schools' either? dunno!)
>
>
>
> 2008/12/10 Gnangarra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Lets look at this differently, Wikipedia/Foundation is about providing
>> free access to all knowledge, how could someone who supports the project
>> consider promoting censorship of the information?
>>
>>
>>
>> 2008/12/10 Gnangarra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2008/12/10 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>


  though I would prefer there were better systems in place to
 ensure that the images are legal (ie. models consenting and of age), and
 that (per Nick) folk have some opportunity to self-select. I'd be inclined
 to support a flickr like 'please click here to indicate that you're of age
 to view this material' sort of thing, I think.

>>>
>>>
>>> Yep and every kid is going to just tick such a box anyway, the intention
>>> of the box is to dimish responsibility of the provider not to protect the
>>> viewer.
>>>
>>>

 cheers,

 Peter
 PM.




 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:28 AM, David Gerard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I must say, there's a certain appeal to attempting to forbid kids from
> reading encyclopedias, so they'll think it's cool.
>
>
> - d.
>
> ___
> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>


 ___
 Wikimediaau-l mailing list
 Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l


>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> GN.
>>> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[private musings]

I (think / hope) that what I'm suggesting is certainly not censorship in any
way - more just the reasonable expectation that some of our content may
raise an eyebrow in schools - and that it's a good idea to be mindful of
this in our communications and work with them.

By way of further illustration, here's an example of a good faith
contributor at commons compiling a collection of some of his favourite
shots;

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TwoWings/Fav#Sexy

I think we're all big enough and ugly enough to accept that there's nothing
wrong with this sort of thing, and that it's normal to enjoy eroticism - I
think it's also perfectly fair enough for schools to want to be a bit
careful with how they interact with this sort of material - maybe it's as
simple as saying 'look, there's actually quite a lot of images on various
wiki projects that you might not want your pupils to see / share / collect -
and here's how you can help achieve this' - back to the directed projects,
supervised access etc. I guess.

best,

Peter
PM.

another example doing the rounds is this one - 'not safe for work';
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaved_genitalia_(female)

(by the way - if something's 'not safe for work' - presumably it's 'not safe
for schools' either? dunno!)


2008/12/10 Gnangarra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Lets look at this differently, Wikipedia/Foundation is about providing free
> access to all knowledge, how could someone who supports the project consider
> promoting censorship of the information?
>
>
>
> 2008/12/10 Gnangarra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>>
>> 2008/12/10 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  though I would prefer there were better systems in place to ensure
>>> that the images are legal (ie. models consenting and of age), and that (per
>>> Nick) folk have some opportunity to self-select. I'd be inclined to support
>>> a flickr like 'please click here to indicate that you're of age to view this
>>> material' sort of thing, I think.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yep and every kid is going to just tick such a box anyway, the intention
>> of the box is to dimish responsibility of the provider not to protect the
>> viewer.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>> Peter
>>> PM.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:28 AM, David Gerard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>>>
 I must say, there's a certain appeal to attempting to forbid kids from
 reading encyclopedias, so they'll think it's cool.


 - d.

 ___
 Wikimediaau-l mailing list
 Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l

>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
>>> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Gnangarra]

Lets look at this differently, Wikipedia/Foundation is about providing free
access to all knowledge, how could someone who supports the project consider
promoting censorship of the information?



2008/12/10 Gnangarra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
>
> 2008/12/10 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>
>>
>>  though I would prefer there were better systems in place to ensure
>> that the images are legal (ie. models consenting and of age), and that (per
>> Nick) folk have some opportunity to self-select. I'd be inclined to support
>> a flickr like 'please click here to indicate that you're of age to view this
>> material' sort of thing, I think.
>>
>
>
> Yep and every kid is going to just tick such a box anyway, the intention of
> the box is to dimish responsibility of the provider not to protect the
> viewer.
>
>
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Peter
>> PM.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:28 AM, David Gerard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> I must say, there's a certain appeal to attempting to forbid kids from
>>> reading encyclopedias, so they'll think it's cool.
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
>>> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/
>



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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Gnangarra]

2008/12/10 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
>
>  though I would prefer there were better systems in place to ensure
> that the images are legal (ie. models consenting and of age), and that (per
> Nick) folk have some opportunity to self-select. I'd be inclined to support
> a flickr like 'please click here to indicate that you're of age to view this
> material' sort of thing, I think.
>


Yep and every kid is going to just tick such a box anyway, the intention of
the box is to dimish responsibility of the provider not to protect the
viewer.


>
> cheers,
>
> Peter
> PM.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:28 AM, David Gerard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I must say, there's a certain appeal to attempting to forbid kids from
>> reading encyclopedias, so they'll think it's cool.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaau-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>>
>
>
> ___
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>
>


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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nathan Carter]

2008/12/9 Liam Wyatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> is it not the case that schools already have a filter on their PCs? Is it
> not the case that if you were to look for [[category:erotic]] it would be
> dynamically filtered out?

The school's filtering system would isn't that complex.
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[private musings]

not a bad plan, david ;-) - and per the above, I think I should note that I
may be willing to adopt Nick if he feels it would help - he's so cute in a
party hat!

I think the bigger discussion about what images are cool for kids (my
reading of the general viewpoint here - pretty much all of them?) - is
interesting, and can no doubt be continued all over the place - I will say
that I kind of like Nick's idea of having some sort of flag system so folk
can make choices for themselves and the kids their responsible for - is this
mailing list GFDL? - and would you mind if I shamelessly stole your words
and popped them here, Nick?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sexual_content#Proposal_2_-_A_sexual_content_flag

However, my intention was more to discuss how and what we communicate to
schools as part of our outreach work, and specifically on a Chapter level,
whether or not we feel schools should allow full and free access to
Wikimedia projects. I've mentioned that my answer is currently 'no' - and
I'm getting the strong 'yes' vibe from most (although please do pipe up and
state as much clearly)... the next open quesiton is what level of
responsibility should we as a chapter take on for ensuring schools etc. are
aware of the practical implications of encouraging kids' access.

It's a peripheral matter to the substantive discussion, but I further
believe there are PR landmines around in this area, which adds to the
incentive to figure something out ahead of time. I gather a rather amusing
OTRS ticket illustrated this potential problem fairly recently, with a
member of the public being 'disgusted' at the top google result if you
search for 'Prince Albert' - image that article coming up in a history
classroom (@ witty lama!) - and you begin to consider some of the small
pragmatic sticking points ;-)

Finally - I think all over the place the rhetoric in this area can be a bit
distracting, and occasionaly unhelpful - here are a couple of lines in the
sand. I'm all for all types of explicit imagery, including bits 'n bobs, and
people playing with each other's - though I would prefer there were better
systems in place to ensure that the images are legal (ie. models consenting
and of age), and that (per Nick) folk have some opportunity to self-select.
I'd be inclined to support a flickr like 'please click here to indicate that
you're of age to view this material' sort of thing, I think.

cheers,

Peter
PM.



On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:28 AM, David Gerard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I must say, there's a certain appeal to attempting to forbid kids from
> reading encyclopedias, so they'll think it's cool.
>
>
> - d.
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[David Gerard]

I must say, there's a certain appeal to attempting to forbid kids from
reading encyclopedias, so they'll think it's cool.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Gnangarra]

Sexuality sensitivity as an argument for banning, blocking or not using
Wikipedia is utter garbage.

Schools teach this from pre-primary onwards ok at pre-primary its just the
distinction between being a boy and a girl by grade 5 the class rooms are
discussing periods, sex, drugs the whole gamete of unmentionable topics.

As a parent I'd rather my children read and learn from neutral information
in an informed manor, within class room environment with teacher and peers
is a good external(non-home) environment. The children learn that saying no
is ok, they learn that its their decision that matter when it comes to them,
likewise to respect the choices of other people. They learn about being
safe, the learn of the dangers and consequences of the decisions they take.

Wikipedia has images of the human body these are realistic images rather
than un-natural representation that require surgery or self abuse to attain,
it also has images of the damage poor choices can result in. Its not perfect
nor is it comprehensive in some areas its limited but the major topics are
well covered they are heavily patrolled and problems rarely last more then a
minute or two. As a group we need to admit to the limitations and work to
improve them but we should also be high lighting the amount of positive
information, the way its neutrally presented and the fact that its not about
promoting unrealistic images of what's "normal".

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, schools have National Geographic, they have
copies of Britannica in their libraries, they have books specifically about
sex all with images that are comparable to what we have. We have depth, we
have currency, we are in the medium that children are most comfortable with.

We do cover every topic so yes they'll find articles about porn,
prostitution, drugs, along with death, religion, history, plants, wars,
buildings, places, people, events, maths, languages, cultures, politics,
medicine, space, ufos, literature, theatre, movies, games, tv shows, animals
and on, on.. because thats what Wikipedia is about. When you talk to a
teacher about Wikipedia talk about knowledge for its with knowledge that a
person grows, if they think that restricting knowledge maybe its better
point them to article on people like
Goebbles, Bin Laden  to
see what can be achieved by controlling the flow of
knowledge and the way its presented...



2008/12/9 Zero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I'm sorry to break it to you, but the problems with these points of
> view is that this isn't limited to just Wikipedia and such. Any kind
> of sensitive information, or new opinions, anywhere, will have some
> sort of backlash and outrage. It's an inherent part of society, and
> it's difficult, if not impossible to change the status quo without
> simply waiting for the next generation to take dominance. And even
> then the cycle will repeat. If you have an idea to tackle it, I'd be
> eternally grateful.
>
> In the end we'll just have to work around it.
>
> All I can suggest right now is, while informing them about Wikimedia's
> projects, we warn them that there are sensitive subjects, but it is
> not our aim to censor, and we write strictly in an informative,
> academic sense. If one sees something that's not written so, it's our
> job to fix that, and if there's a lasting problem, remind them that
> they can censor and filter things with their own software, at their
> own discretion.
>
> 2008/12/9 Orderinchaos78 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > I really liked this post, it reflects my point of view. We're talking
> about
> > teenagers who probably know more about it than some of the people wishing
> to
> > censor it, for starters. And they see worse on TV every night - there's
> > serial killers, murders, drugs and sex even before 8:30 in many cases. To
> be
> > forewarned is to be forearmed, as the saying goes, and I think censoring
> > things "for the children" is a pretty outmoded approach that reflects a
> lack
> > of understanding of modern youth - especially if we're talking about a
> > factual resource with an NPOV approach.
> >
> > cheers
> > Andrew
> >
> > 2008/12/9 Andrew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >> 2008/12/9 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> > My answer right now to the question 'should wikipedia be available in
> >> > schools' is 'no' - I'd be interested to hear yours.
> >> >
> >> > I think it'd be great to lead the way on a community level in figuring
> >> > out
> >> > how best to communicate this - you know - accentuating the positives,
> >> > communicating clearly the nature of the wiki beast etc.
> >> >
> >> > Stuff that I've done in this area goes back a little way - primarily
> in
> >> > 'project space' with;
> >> >
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents  and
> recently
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sexual_content
> >> >
> >> > On a side note, I believe Commons has a bit of catch up to do in terms
> >> >

Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Zero]

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the problems with these points of
view is that this isn't limited to just Wikipedia and such. Any kind
of sensitive information, or new opinions, anywhere, will have some
sort of backlash and outrage. It's an inherent part of society, and
it's difficult, if not impossible to change the status quo without
simply waiting for the next generation to take dominance. And even
then the cycle will repeat. If you have an idea to tackle it, I'd be
eternally grateful.

In the end we'll just have to work around it.

All I can suggest right now is, while informing them about Wikimedia's
projects, we warn them that there are sensitive subjects, but it is
not our aim to censor, and we write strictly in an informative,
academic sense. If one sees something that's not written so, it's our
job to fix that, and if there's a lasting problem, remind them that
they can censor and filter things with their own software, at their
own discretion.

2008/12/9 Orderinchaos78 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I really liked this post, it reflects my point of view. We're talking about
> teenagers who probably know more about it than some of the people wishing to
> censor it, for starters. And they see worse on TV every night - there's
> serial killers, murders, drugs and sex even before 8:30 in many cases. To be
> forewarned is to be forearmed, as the saying goes, and I think censoring
> things "for the children" is a pretty outmoded approach that reflects a lack
> of understanding of modern youth - especially if we're talking about a
> factual resource with an NPOV approach.
>
> cheers
> Andrew
>
> 2008/12/9 Andrew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> 2008/12/9 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> > My answer right now to the question 'should wikipedia be available in
>> > schools' is 'no' - I'd be interested to hear yours.
>> >
>> > I think it'd be great to lead the way on a community level in figuring
>> > out
>> > how best to communicate this - you know - accentuating the positives,
>> > communicating clearly the nature of the wiki beast etc.
>> >
>> > Stuff that I've done in this area goes back a little way - primarily in
>> > 'project space' with;
>> >
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents  and recently
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sexual_content
>> >
>> > On a side note, I believe Commons has a bit of catch up to do in terms
>> > of
>> > policy and practice in dealing with images best described as 'edgy' and
>> > uncharitably described as free porn, and whilst I'm happy to talk about
>> > that
>> > here, I guess the most 'on topic' matter in hand is how this (and indeed
>> > recent press coverage) impact our outreach work, and what we might be
>> > able
>> > to do to best work with schools etc.
>>
>> You're resting your entire argument on the assumption that
>> encyclopedic, earnest and frank discussion of sexuality is a weakness,
>> and something to be ashamed of. I don't agree that children need to be
>> "protected" from sexuality any more than they need to be "protected"
>> from non-heterosexual influences. History, past and present, shows
>> that those societies in which sexuality is discussed openly,
>> earnestly, and honestly, have the lowest rates of sexually transmitted
>> infection, teen pregnancy, and divorce. While many of the powers that
>> be (parents and teachers, as well as the government of the day) are
>> afraid of earnest discussion of sexuality, I don't see why we ought to
>> indulge them.
>>
>> Even if you accept the idea that pornography is inherently damaging to
>> society and to viewers (which is an entirely different, but related
>> argument, and I can certainly see arguments on either side, regardless
>> of my feelings on it), it does not necessarily follow that sexual
>> content is also damaging to society. In your crusades against
>> sexualised content, you have consistently denied or ignored the
>> distinction between smut (that is, something that appeals purely to
>> the prurient interest), and tasteful but relevant illustration (that
>> is, something which would also appeal to curiosity or a more
>> intellectual interest).
>>
>> The fact of the matter is that a basic understanding of human anatomy
>> is essential to any well-rounded education, and I would far prefer
>> that a child comes to this understanding through tasteful, but earnest
>> images (including photographs), rather than a mishmash of unclear and
>> over-complicated diagrams (made complicated to mask the sexual aspect
>> of them), vague description, and personal experience that most of us
>> have used to come to our current understanding of the anatomy of both
>> genders.
>>
>> I therefore view your, and other's attempts to suppress representation
>> of sexuality for fear that it is 'inappropriate' for children (without
>> any stipulation as to the reasons for this assertion) as misguided at
>> best, and at worst willful denial of the education that children need
>> to funct

Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Orderinchaos78]

I really liked this post, it reflects my point of view. We're talking about
teenagers who probably know more about it than some of the people wishing to
censor it, for starters. And they see worse on TV every night - there's
serial killers, murders, drugs and sex even before 8:30 in many cases. To be
forewarned is to be forearmed, as the saying goes, and I think censoring
things "for the children" is a pretty outmoded approach that reflects a lack
of understanding of modern youth - especially if we're talking about a
factual resource with an NPOV approach.

cheers
Andrew

2008/12/9 Andrew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> 2008/12/9 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > My answer right now to the question 'should wikipedia be available in
> > schools' is 'no' - I'd be interested to hear yours.
> >
> > I think it'd be great to lead the way on a community level in figuring
> out
> > how best to communicate this - you know - accentuating the positives,
> > communicating clearly the nature of the wiki beast etc.
> >
> > Stuff that I've done in this area goes back a little way - primarily in
> > 'project space' with;
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents  and recently
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sexual_content
> >
> > On a side note, I believe Commons has a bit of catch up to do in terms of
> > policy and practice in dealing with images best described as 'edgy' and
> > uncharitably described as free porn, and whilst I'm happy to talk about
> that
> > here, I guess the most 'on topic' matter in hand is how this (and indeed
> > recent press coverage) impact our outreach work, and what we might be
> able
> > to do to best work with schools etc.
>
> You're resting your entire argument on the assumption that
> encyclopedic, earnest and frank discussion of sexuality is a weakness,
> and something to be ashamed of. I don't agree that children need to be
> "protected" from sexuality any more than they need to be "protected"
> from non-heterosexual influences. History, past and present, shows
> that those societies in which sexuality is discussed openly,
> earnestly, and honestly, have the lowest rates of sexually transmitted
> infection, teen pregnancy, and divorce. While many of the powers that
> be (parents and teachers, as well as the government of the day) are
> afraid of earnest discussion of sexuality, I don't see why we ought to
> indulge them.
>
> Even if you accept the idea that pornography is inherently damaging to
> society and to viewers (which is an entirely different, but related
> argument, and I can certainly see arguments on either side, regardless
> of my feelings on it), it does not necessarily follow that sexual
> content is also damaging to society. In your crusades against
> sexualised content, you have consistently denied or ignored the
> distinction between smut (that is, something that appeals purely to
> the prurient interest), and tasteful but relevant illustration (that
> is, something which would also appeal to curiosity or a more
> intellectual interest).
>
> The fact of the matter is that a basic understanding of human anatomy
> is essential to any well-rounded education, and I would far prefer
> that a child comes to this understanding through tasteful, but earnest
> images (including photographs), rather than a mishmash of unclear and
> over-complicated diagrams (made complicated to mask the sexual aspect
> of them), vague description, and personal experience that most of us
> have used to come to our current understanding of the anatomy of both
> genders.
>
> I therefore view your, and other's attempts to suppress representation
> of sexuality for fear that it is 'inappropriate' for children (without
> any stipulation as to the reasons for this assertion) as misguided at
> best, and at worst willful denial of the education that children need
> to function correctly in society. Sexuality is a part of society - an
> integral part, as it happens, it governs much of our lives. This will
> remain the case despite the attempts to suppress it by you, the IWF
> and other organisations.
>
> --
> Andrew Garrett
>
> ___
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> Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l
>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Nick Jenkins]

> is it not the case that schools already have a filter on their PCs? Is
> it not the case that if you were to look for [[category:erotic]] it
> would be dynamically filtered out?

But won't there be other forms of content that are liable to be of
concern to schools? E.g. illicit drugs, contraception, detailed
descriptions of serial killer crimes, photos of mass graves, etc. There
are plenty of things that people may get upset about, for a wide variety
of reasons and beliefs.

Maybe what's needed is a generalised approach, where you say on a
picture / article / whatever, that something may be offensive because of
the following reasons, tick all that apply:
[ ] sexually explicit
[ ] contains swear words
[ ] contains recreational drug use
[ ] contains graphic depiction of dead people
... etc

Then a user could say, either:
a) I wish to censor _myself_ for the following categories of content.
b) I wish to censor the following usernames and/or IP addresses for the
following categories of content, _and_ I am the legal guardian or have a
legal duty-of-care towards these users, _and_ I represent the
organisation which is paying in its entirety for this Internet access.

Then when someone attempt to access some content which violates the
above restrictions, it puts up a big warning sign, and says "you cannot
access this content because it contains ,
which was censored by , and this censorship
was put in place on ". That way it's clear what's blocked, and
why, and by whom.

Therefore, this allows:
* People to censor themselves - i.e. censor what they and they alone
see.
* Schools to censor content for teachers and/or students.
* Employers to censor content for employees.
* Parents can censor content for their children.

However, neither you, nor the government, nor an ISP, have any right to
censor what I see on a connection that I pay for, until such time as
you're willing to foot the bill (in its entirety) for my net connection,
and are willing to accept a legal duty-of-care (e.g. adopt me / take on
employment obligations including paying me the minimum wage +
superannuation / enrol me in a recognised qualification that you run as
a registered educational site / etc) ... a simple principle, but one
that Senator Conroy & the UK ISPs & various other nanny-staters might do
well to consider.

Sound fair? Hopefully such an approach would balance the needs of
different groups (such as schools, parents, etc) who may have legitimate
concerns, against the needs of those who value personal freedoms and
personal responsibility.

-- All the best,
Nick.



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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Andrew Garrett]

2008/12/9 private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> My answer right now to the question 'should wikipedia be available in
> schools' is 'no' - I'd be interested to hear yours.
>
> I think it'd be great to lead the way on a community level in figuring out
> how best to communicate this - you know - accentuating the positives,
> communicating clearly the nature of the wiki beast etc.
>
> Stuff that I've done in this area goes back a little way - primarily in
> 'project space' with;
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents  and recently
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sexual_content
>
> On a side note, I believe Commons has a bit of catch up to do in terms of
> policy and practice in dealing with images best described as 'edgy' and
> uncharitably described as free porn, and whilst I'm happy to talk about that
> here, I guess the most 'on topic' matter in hand is how this (and indeed
> recent press coverage) impact our outreach work, and what we might be able
> to do to best work with schools etc.

You're resting your entire argument on the assumption that
encyclopedic, earnest and frank discussion of sexuality is a weakness,
and something to be ashamed of. I don't agree that children need to be
"protected" from sexuality any more than they need to be "protected"
from non-heterosexual influences. History, past and present, shows
that those societies in which sexuality is discussed openly,
earnestly, and honestly, have the lowest rates of sexually transmitted
infection, teen pregnancy, and divorce. While many of the powers that
be (parents and teachers, as well as the government of the day) are
afraid of earnest discussion of sexuality, I don't see why we ought to
indulge them.

Even if you accept the idea that pornography is inherently damaging to
society and to viewers (which is an entirely different, but related
argument, and I can certainly see arguments on either side, regardless
of my feelings on it), it does not necessarily follow that sexual
content is also damaging to society. In your crusades against
sexualised content, you have consistently denied or ignored the
distinction between smut (that is, something that appeals purely to
the prurient interest), and tasteful but relevant illustration (that
is, something which would also appeal to curiosity or a more
intellectual interest).

The fact of the matter is that a basic understanding of human anatomy
is essential to any well-rounded education, and I would far prefer
that a child comes to this understanding through tasteful, but earnest
images (including photographs), rather than a mishmash of unclear and
over-complicated diagrams (made complicated to mask the sexual aspect
of them), vague description, and personal experience that most of us
have used to come to our current understanding of the anatomy of both
genders.

I therefore view your, and other's attempts to suppress representation
of sexuality for fear that it is 'inappropriate' for children (without
any stipulation as to the reasons for this assertion) as misguided at
best, and at worst willful denial of the education that children need
to function correctly in society. Sexuality is a part of society - an
integral part, as it happens, it governs much of our lives. This will
remain the case despite the attempts to suppress it by you, the IWF
and other organisations.

-- 
Andrew Garrett

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Zero]

2008/12/9 Liam Wyatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> is it not the case that schools already have a filter on their PCs? Is it
> not the case that if you were to look for [[category:erotic]] it would be
> dynamically filtered out?
>

That's correct. You could say that my former high school is an example
of that, as I've personally seen it, but I remember someone mentioning
that those kinds of (complex) filters are created at the discretion of
the school, and isn't mandatory. For Queensland, anyway.

-- 
Always here,
Zero

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Karl Goetz]

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:05:04 +1100
"private musings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Right now, my feeling is that there's just a bit of a missing layer of
> controls / policies / practice in how Wikimedia handles some material
> - which means on balance I couldn't in good faith recommend to a
> School Librarian that they allow full access to the projects from
> their computers... or to put it another way - if we visit a school
> advocating high levels of active engagement in the project, we should
> understand that the Principle might be upset, or get complaints from
> upset parents that things like;
> 
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Erotic
> 
> come under our 'banner' - not safe for work, nothing hugely
> offensive, but available through Wikimedia pages, and likely to be
> the sort of thing schools would like to avoid?

I never knew that category existed - then again, I never thought too
look.
Thats posted in the commons - does that mean those images are part of
Wikipedia, or "just" sister projects?

kk

> cheers,
> 
> Peter
> PM.
> 


-- 
Karl Goetz, (Kamping_Kaiser / VK5FOSS)
Debian user / gNewSense contributor
http://www.kgoetz.id.au
No, I won't join your social networking group

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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Liam Wyatt]

is it not the case that schools already have a filter on their PCs? Is it
not the case that if you were to look for [[category:erotic]] it would be
dynamically filtered out?

On 12/9/08, private musings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> (ps. I should explain that things like supervised classroom access,
> directed projects, and a whole host of other things short of full and free
> access throughout the school network are wonderful ideas! - perhaps these
> sorts of things are useful to talk about?)
>
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>


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Email - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone - +61 (0)434 056 914
Skype - Wittylama
Wikipedia - [[User:Witty lama]]
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[private musings]

(ps. I should explain that things like supervised classroom access, directed
projects, and a whole host of other things short of full and free access
throughout the school network are wonderful ideas! - perhaps these sorts of
things are useful to talk about?)
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[private musings]

don't be sad, Liam :-) - it's not all doom 'n gloom!

I think Wikipedia has great utility within the education system - and I
think we can get out there and wave the flag for it. Parents and teaches
will be well aware of the availability of explicit imagery of all types all
over the internet, and how they manage children's access to it is of course
their concern, and responsibility.

Right now, my feeling is that there's just a bit of a missing layer of
controls / policies / practice in how Wikimedia handles some material -
which means on balance I couldn't in good faith recommend to a School
Librarian that they allow full access to the projects from their
computers... or to put it another way - if we visit a school advocating high
levels of active engagement in the project, we should understand that the
Principle might be upset, or get complaints from upset parents that things
like;

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Erotic

come under our 'banner' - not safe for work, nothing hugely offensive, but
available through Wikimedia pages, and likely to be the sort of thing
schools would like to avoid?

Ultimately, the decision rests with the communities of the projects (and the
legal counsel at the WMF of course) as to how content is managed, and with
the schools and individual institutions as to how they manage / recommend
access etc. all I'm really saying is we need to be open, and a bit
understanding that Wikimedia contains reasonably large quantities of
pictures generally considered unsuitable for minors.

cheers,

Peter
PM.





2008/12/9 Liam Wyatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
>
>> My answer right now to the question 'should wikipedia be available in
>> schools' is 'no' - I'd be interested to hear yours.
>> Peter
>> PM.
>>
>>
> I find this profoundly saddening. Today is filled with bad news from all
> directions - all the worse for those directions being from places where you
> didn't think bad news would come from. If someone such as yourself, who is
> intimately aware of the promise and possibilities of Wiki*edia (as well as
> its pitfalls), does not believe that it - an educational project - should be
> used in our educational facilities then why do we even bother?
>
> - Liam
>
> --
> Email - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone - +61 (0)434 056 914
> Skype - Wittylama
> Wikipedia - [[User:Witty lama]]
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[Liam Wyatt]

>
> My answer right now to the question 'should wikipedia be available in
> schools' is 'no' - I'd be interested to hear yours.
> Peter
> PM.
>
>
I find this profoundly saddening. Today is filled with bad news from all
directions - all the worse for those directions being from places where you
didn't think bad news would come from. If someone such as yourself, who is
intimately aware of the promise and possibilities of Wiki*edia (as well as
its pitfalls), does not believe that it - an educational project - should be
used in our educational facilities then why do we even bother?

- Liam

-- 
Email - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone - +61 (0)434 056 914
Skype - Wittylama
Wikipedia - [[User:Witty lama]]
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[Wikimediaau-l] Wikipedia and schools

[private musings]

Hi all,

just thinking out loud here - but following our brainstorming about
beginning outreach work into schools, I wonder if there's any appetite on
this list for discussion about Wikipedia's suitability in schools - and
other peripheral issues which kinda surround the broohaha raging elsewhere
(UK 'Virgin Killer' thing).

I had a very interesting chat with an editor yesterday, and we were sort of
coming around to the view that within schools, students need to understand
the nature of Wikipedia, and can learn a lot from engaging with it in
various ways, but that we need to be clear that some material in the
encyclopedia is reasonably likely to cause problems if accessed in school,
and is likely to be considered unsuitable for minors by teachers and parents
alike.

My answer right now to the question 'should wikipedia be available in
schools' is 'no' - I'd be interested to hear yours.

I think it'd be great to lead the way on a community level in figuring out
how best to communicate this - you know - accentuating the positives,
communicating clearly the nature of the wiki beast etc.

Stuff that I've done in this area goes back a little way - primarily in
'project space' with;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents  and recently
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sexual_content

On a side note, I believe Commons has a bit of catch up to do in terms of
policy and practice in dealing with images best described as 'edgy' and
uncharitably described as free porn, and whilst I'm happy to talk about that
here, I guess the most 'on topic' matter in hand is how this (and indeed
recent press coverage) impact our outreach work, and what we might be able
to do to best work with schools etc.

cheers,

Peter
PM.
(who's chomping at the bit to send someone money for membership ;-)
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