Re: [WISPA] It's been a ride... Some up, some down.

[MDK]

I knew I could count on you to demonstrate complete ignorance of What Should 
Be, Because It Once Was.   

The founders would curse you for having no understanding.  


++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++





I really think you seriously need to read about our founding fathers, and how 
they operated, (they all did not get together and sing kumbaya at the camp 
fire, neither did they pickup their scrolls of paper and walk away to their own 
corners when there was disagreement )...and try to gain an understanding on the 
'Democratic Principles of Government'  on how they function and operate.

You seem to be totally missing the last 2 thirds of the  'for the people, of 
the people and by the people' , and yes it is precisely because of thinking 
like yours (suggested in your own words), that the Great French Philosophers of 
their time, said that the US Constitution / way of Governing is never going to 
work, and it is doomed for failure  When asked why ? The response was .. 
'Simple. common people are not interested in participating in the Governing 
process'.
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[WISPA] bandwidth provider at Westin

[MDK]

I'm looking for wholesale bandwidth providers located in Westin..  Anyone have 
names / etc?   

Thanks

Mark



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++



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Re: [WISPA] bandwidth provider at Westin

[MDK]

I'm using Spectrum now, and at 65/meg, it hurts, since my use is going up as 
much as 10% a month.   Not only that, I haven't been able to get anyone to 
talk to me or respond to emails in six months, except for matters of 
collecting money.They're all over that, but I'm too small, I guess, to 
warrant anyone's time for any other matters.



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Ryan Spott" 
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 9:57 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] bandwidth provider at Westin

> spectrumnet.us (aka condointernet)
> http://www.seattleix.net/ <- get on this! :)
> http://www.seattleix.net/participants.htm
>
>
> ryan
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:52 AM, MDK  wrote:
>> I'm looking for wholesale bandwidth providers located in Westin..  Anyone
>> have names / etc?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> ++
>> Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
>> 541-969-8200  509-386-4589
>> ++
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Figuring it out

[MDK]

I've had my one test sector up for some time, and then it suddenly developed 
ethernet issues.  

I changed both cables and switch, and no joy.   

I have the replacement rocket, just waiting for the moment I can get back up 
there and replace it.  

Since this is more common than it should be, I'm going to go whine to UBNT.  I 
thought mine might a fluke or some kind of odd damage issue, but apparently 
not.   

Unless someone knows of a managed switch that uses less than 3W power, I'm 
stuck with dumb switches...  



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Chuck Hogg 
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 6:47 AM
To: spie...@avolve.net ; WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Figuring it out


Try setting the Rocket AP to 10Mbit on the Ethernet and see if you get the same 
results.  I have had several 100Mbit ethernet issues with Rockets, only fix I 
have had has been to put a modified POE RB/750G near the top of the tower to 
the Rocket.  At 100Mbit they had 7-20% packet loss.  If you have a mikrotik you 
can also test this using the ping command from base to top and set the timeout 
to 75ms.  If you have any packet loss, try setting to 10Mbit and ping again. 

Regards,

Chuck





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Re: [WISPA] FCC Commish: No need for net neutrality; we have white spaces!

[MDK]

To heck with the critics!

What do they know?   Did anyone ask the people who know something, rather 
than just the pointy-headed academics?

NN rules are a disaster waiting to happen,  and "open access" is an 
unsustainable model based on a pretend market.

He is absolutely right, however, competition and the ability become 
competition simply removes the need for ANY meddling.


++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Jack Unger" 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 1:25 PM
To: ; "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] FCC Commish: No need for net neutrality;we have white 
spaces!

> Speechless, I am...
>
>
> "Critics of US broadband want one of two things: "open access" rules that 
> would
> create greater ISP competition of the kind that actually existed in the 
> early
> 2000s or, barring that, net neutrality rules to keep ISPs from abusing 
> their
> market power. But according to FCC Commissioner Robert McDowell, we don't 
> need
> either policy—white space devices make both approaches unnecessary... "
>
> 
>
>
> -- 
> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> Author (2003) - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks"
> Serving the WISP, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993
> www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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[WISPA] MIMO antenna cabling...

[MDK]

I'm in the position of wanting to test the Star-OS MIMO mode, and it occurs to 
me that connecting an antenna through a few feet of cable may have some 
pitfalls...

I'm going to use dual polarity antennas, and so I'm wondering if I need to use 
very closely matching cable lengths for the cables that connect the radio to 
the wire?The board / radio are inside the building, and the antennas will 
be about 10 feet away, or so.   

Is this an issue to be concerned about?   

Anyone know? 




++
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541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


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Re: [WISPA] MIMO antenna cabling...

[MDK]

I'm aware of cable loss issues, but in this case, that's just not an option.   
LMR-400 has low enough loss at 5 ghz that I don't see any big issue with using 
it, and the run really isn't all that long.  

The radio system is an ALIX mini-itx and it has 5 radios, plus a 2 radio ALIX 
board, all in one enclosure.   BTW, it's a metal building, with the radios 
inside another heavy steel box, required to prevent nearby lightning strikes 
from shutting it down.  



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: support 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:51 AM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] MIMO antenna cabling...


10ft in RF cable is a Bad Idea I would put you board in a weather proof box and 
put it next to your antennas

On 1/11/2011 1:16 PM, MDK wrote: 
I'm in the position of wanting to test the Star-OS MIMO mode, and it occurs to 
me that connecting an antenna through a few feet of cable may have some 
pitfalls...

I'm going to use dual polarity antennas, and so I'm wondering if I need to use 
very closely matching cable lengths for the cables that connect the radio to 
the wire?The board / radio are inside the building, and the antennas will 
be about 10 feet away, or so.   

Is this an issue to be concerned about?   

Anyone know? 




++
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541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++




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-- 


Tim Steele

supp...@nitline.com

NITLine Support

(574) 772-7550 ext 103

www.NITLine.net







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Re: [WISPA] MIMO antenna cabling...

[MDK]

I believe that's somewhere down the road, not too far distant.  


++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Tom DeReggi 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:22 AM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] MIMO antenna cabling...


OK... I just visited the forums and saw StarOS has been hard at work adding N 
Class support.
(Better late than never).

I stopped paying attention after around Starv3 v1.3.23 or soThinking EOL 
was near.

I just noticed the opposite on the forums with V3- v1.5.15, and even an ALIX 
specific version.
It appears StarOS's implementation is still playing catch up, but exciting to 
see that their product is evolving.
They definately have the talent on staff to evolve their product to a stable 
product.

Wondering if they are working on adding an embedded Spectrum Scanner software 
for Ncards yet?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message ----- 
  From: MDK 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 2:16 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] MIMO antenna cabling...


  I'm in the position of wanting to test the Star-OS MIMO mode, and it occurs 
to me that connecting an antenna through a few feet of cable may have some 
pitfalls...

  I'm going to use dual polarity antennas, and so I'm wondering if I need to 
use very closely matching cable lengths for the cables that connect the radio 
to the wire?The board / radio are inside the building, and the antennas 
will be about 10 feet away, or so.   

  Is this an issue to be concerned about?   

  Anyone know? 




  ++
  Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
  541-969-8200  509-386-4589
  ++


--




  

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[WISPA] Looking for residential WISP in Phoenix area.

[MDK]

Please contact me offlist, by email, only...

mark   at   neofast   dot  net



++
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541-969-8200 
++
 



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Re: [WISPA] Connected Nation Rules

[MDK]

Matt, I commend your thoughts, and how you chose to write them.   I always 
admire people who speak clearly, but from the heart. 

I would like to add something, or perhaps just explain why I think this 
industry will never become the domain of a few large players.   Our industry 
requires a dedication to individual service.   Many in the beginning wanted a 
box to plant on the desk, so that NO interaction with the customer was needed.  
 Instead, we serve each customer individually.   Our deployments require that 
we learn and plot our coverage and service in place, on the ground, interacting 
with local people.  

There is no large company that can do that.We CARE about our own business, 
because it IS our own business, and thus, we CARE about our customers, 
something you cannot ever pay someone to do.   The employee who  can be paid to 
care, is indeed...rare.   Thus, we have entered an industry with a model based 
upon the highest ideal of business - that of true service.   The flakes will 
fail, the greedy will fail, only those with a true concern for doing what needs 
to be done, in return for a modest paycheck will be successful.   Some can 
instill or find that kind of employee to hire, but no HR department will 
accomplish it.  

I don't call us heroes... Certainly I am not anyone's hero.  I'm a villain, 
when the power fails at 8 pm on a school night, and everyone's connection dies. 
 But I do my best, and I really, DO care that someone needs and I have the 
means of meeting it, and so I get up and go out, missing my dinner, to get 
things back up and going. 

Any of you on this list who won't do that, you're the exception, not the rule.  
 I can with confidence that you have a passion to do things for other people... 
 And found a way to earn that paycheck... and meet the need.   I believe very 
few of you are in this, solely for the money.   

And I disagree about our image...  It should be a nameless, faceless guy, 
working out of his truck, doing the job for his neighbor, on a handshake.   
That's who we are, more than anything else.   It's who we should sell ourselves 
as, and in doing so, gain our customer's loyalty, as we're loyal to them. Our  
business operations, and our treatment of customers should reflect that, as 
well.  

I don't have the answer for the problems in DC.   I don't have the answer for 
how to get Congress and agencies to allow us to do what we know how to do, and 
have the answers for.   I just think we should be on the offensive, not the 
defensive, and seek to change the nature of the game.  

BTW, I read your site from time to time, it's quite good.   Keep it up.  



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Matt Larsen - Lists 
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 11:16 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Connected Nation Rules


Scottie (and all other non-WISPA members on this list)

I would like to repost something that I put on the WISPA Members list and on my 
blog at Wirelesscowboys.com - the WISP Manifesto.

I am advocating that we should change our strategies to put together our own 
numbers, fight government programs that harm our businesses with taxpayer money 
and show the world that we are heroes to our communities.   I would really 
enjoy commentary from anyone on the list.   ML


(This email started out as a response to Brian Webster's email and went WAY off 
on a tangent, so I'm changing the subject - sorry!) 


Brian, I'm going to disagree with you on a couple of points here.   

 I think that you are mostly right, but you are accepting the framing of the 
issues as the telcos and politicians want them to be framed.   That there is no 
way that we can win a toe-to-toe slugging match for spectrum, but this is not 
about a full on, frontal attack.This is guerilla warfare, and the game is 
played by a completely different set of rules.

 Think of it from the wisp operator's point of view..

 1) We've been given essentially no spectrum (the junk bands that we 
use were around long before WISPs were), 

2)We get no government subsidies, despite the existence of stimulus and 
rural development programs for broadband deployment, which actually..

3)Pours billions of taxpayer dollars into our competition, the same 
competition that has either delivered low grade broadband or none at all.

4)The USF program allows telcos to impose additional "taxes" on their 
services to go into a giant government enabled slush fund that goes right back 
into their systems.  

5)RUS only lends to ILECs and will not work with multiple entities in 
an area 

6)We are asked to turn over highly detailed information about our 
subscriber bases, tower sites and anchor tenants as part of the broadband 
mapping programs - information that is a FOIA request away from being public 
knowledge!

 In many (most) ways, we have little i

Re: [WISPA] Smith: Companies must save private data to combat child porn

[MDK]

Careful Matt, someone might confuse you and me, if you keep up this attitude 

Just a friendly warning 

++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Matt Larsen - Lists 
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:50 PM
To: li...@stlbroadband.com ; WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Smith: Companies must save private data to combat child 
porn


I will be exercising my right to civil disobedience in the event that something 
like this comes to pass.   This would never make it through the court/judiciary 
system, so I'm fairly certain it won't be a problem.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com

On 1/25/2011 7:22 PM, St. Louis Broadband wrote: 
  Same thing here from CNET: 
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20029393-281.html#ixzz1C6HMbtXG

  Except they are saying it has to be saved for two years!  All browsing data 
and email.

  Nice if you're a big ILEC and have endless funds .


  The more I look at the state of the broadband market today, I wonder if WISPs 
will exist in the next few years.



  Victoria Proffer - President/CEO

  www.ShowMeBroadband.com

  www.StLouisBroadband.com

  www.FarmingtonForum.com

  314-974-5600


  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
Behalf Of Jeromie Reeves
  Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:12 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Smith: Companies must save private data to combat child 
porn

  Why do they not just make everyone apply for v6 space. At least that

  way was designed for tacking IP space to people.

  On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Jack Unger  wrote:

  > The following information is offered for your personal use only. It 
contains no

  > added starch, sugar or editorial content. It was not processed on any 
machinery

  > that also processes eggs or nuts.

  >

  > 
*

  >

  > House Judiciary Chairman Lamar Smith says new laws are needed that would 
force

  > companies to save private data in order to help law enforcement combat child

  > pornography.

  >

  > Smith said at a hearing on Tuesday that Internet access providers should be

  > forced to save personal details linked to users' IP addresses as a way to 
help

  > combat child pornography. In the last Congress, he introduced a bill 
requiring

  > they do so for two years...

  >

  > LINK:

  > 


  >

  >

  > 
***

  >

  >

  > --

  > Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.

  > Author (2003) - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks"

  > Serving the WISP, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993

  > www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com

  >

  >

  >

  >

  >

  > 


  > WISPA Wants You! Join today!

  > http://signup.wispa.org/

  > 


  >

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  >

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  >

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  >



  


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--

[WISPA] net neutrality... Two articles...

[MDK]

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/147121-house-leadership-questions-why-industry-isnt-fighting-in-net-regs?tmpl=component&print=1&page=

Excerpt:
House GOP Whip Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) convened a meeting of top communications 
companies on Wednesday morning, where he questioned why they are not doing more 
to help Republicans in the fight against net-neutrality rules. 

A spokeswoman for McCarthy confirmed the meeting. 

http://biggovernment.com/nrbrown/2011/03/04/republican-reactive-neutrality/print/

Excerpt:

The facts are that Net Neutrality is not about keeping all the bits equal.  Net 
Neutrality is about regulatory creep.  It's about controlling the 
infrastructure so that the message can be controlled.  It's about things like 
Internet Sidewalks [5], and Free Press' founder Robert McChesneys desire to 
control information, have a government takeover of infrastructure, and control 
what is available to the people.  We know this when he stated,

"You will never, ever, in any circumstance, win any struggle at any time. That 
being said, we have a long way to go. At the moment, the battle over network 
neutrality is not to completely eliminate the telephone and cable companies. We 
are not at that point yet. But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media 
capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control."


I asked once... about a year ago.   "What side is WISPA on?"

I still can't tell.  Are they on the "no regulation is needed, get lost!" 
bandwagon, or are they on the "We welcome the chance to have input on your 
future plans" bandwagon?

The two roads diverged a while back.   

Which is WISPA on?  


++
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541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++



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Re: [WISPA] net neutrality... Two articles...

[MDK]

Rick, I didn't take any potshots at anyone.   

I linked a couple of short blurbs on the net..

and asked... What's WISPA's official stand or statement?   Is there one?   



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Rick Harnish 
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 7:49 AM
To: 'WISPA General List' 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] net neutrality... Two articles...


Mark,

 

Why don't you join WISPA and be part of the process instead of taking pot shots 
from the "hinterlands".  It is time you stepped up to be counted.

 

For the record, I am personally "totally against" Network Neutrality; at least 
the versions that have been presented thus far.  Forcing unmanaged network 
content on broadband infrastructure operators will have dire consequences in 
the operation of the Internet and the businesses that provide it.

 

Rick

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of MDK
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 1:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] net neutrality... Two articles...

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/147121-house-leadership-questions-why-industry-isnt-fighting-in-net-regs?tmpl=component&print=1&page=

 

Excerpt:

House GOP Whip Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) convened a meeting of top communications 
companies on Wednesday morning, where he questioned why they are not doing more 
to help Republicans in the fight against net-neutrality rules. 

A spokeswoman for McCarthy confirmed the meeting. 

http://biggovernment.com/nrbrown/2011/03/04/republican-reactive-neutrality/print/

Excerpt:

The facts are that Net Neutrality is not about keeping all the bits equal.  Net 
Neutrality is about regulatory creep.  It's about controlling the 
infrastructure so that the message can be controlled.  It's about things like 
Internet Sidewalks [5], and Free Press' founder Robert McChesneys desire to 
control information, have a government takeover of infrastructure, and control 
what is available to the people.  We know this when he stated,

"You will never, ever, in any circumstance, win any struggle at any time. That 
being said, we have a long way to go. At the moment, the battle over network 
neutrality is not to completely eliminate the telephone and cable companies. We 
are not at that point yet. But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media 
capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control."

 

I asked once... about a year ago.   "What side is WISPA on?"

 

I still can't tell.  Are they on the "no regulation is needed, get lost!" 
bandwagon, or are they on the "We welcome the chance to have input on your 
future plans" bandwagon?

 

The two roads diverged a while back.   

 

Which is WISPA on?  

 

 

++
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541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

 









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Re: [WISPA] WISP Testifying before Congress Wednes - Kill NetNeutrality- What you can do!

[MDK]

If you speak to to Walden, thank him for his efforts.   He's my congressman and 
has been at the very front of this the whole time.   

Thanks



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Tom DeReggi 
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 8:21 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Cc: legislat...@wispa.org ; fcccommit...@wispa.org 
Subject: [WISPA] WISP Testifying before Congress Wednes - Kill NetNeutrality- 
What you can do!


Reforwarding. Sorry for the repeat, I forgot to change the subject field 
appropriately, last Email send.




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Re: [WISPA] Living Disaster Fund - Not a One Time Charity Event

[MDK]

If possible, the idea would be in cases where insurance is likely to eventually 
compensate, it could act as a loan, and the fund is replenished whenever 
insurance finally cuts a check.   Where there is not going to be insurance, 
perhaps the operator can agree to future payments for partial repayment...   

This would be the best way to avoid rapid depletion, while at the same time, 
donors never operate under the assumption that the whole of donations are 
simply gifts to someone who's suffered disaster.   

The other half of this, is that often help, especially the expert kind, is 
often as or more valuable than money... and a list of available volunteers for 
X purposes with X skills be maintained, as well.  People sign up for periods of 
time when available and periods when not.   Just to spread the risk around a 
bit.   



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Rick Harnish 
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:04 AM
To: memb...@wispa.org ; 'WISPA General List' ; us...@wug.cc ; 
motor...@afmug.com 
Subject: [WISPA] Living Disaster Fund - Not a One Time Charity Event


I would like to further clarify a few things.  Obviously, I am moving quickly 
on this immediate need, however, I did send the Board an email this morning 
recommending a Disaster Committee be established.  I also made some initial 
recommendations on how this fund would be administrated.  I invite comments 
below and we can move this along rather quickly.  It is definitely needed and 
will be beneficial to have in place.

 

This disaster started me thinking that we need to become more proactive (as 
Marlon has suggested many times in the past) rather than reacting at the moment 
of need.  I am thinking some of the rules of the fund, if established would be:

 

  1.. Disaster Fund donations would be kept in a separate Disaster Fund 
Account, not to be used for General WISPA operating expenses. 
  2.. Sponsorships of the Disaster Fund could be available to our 
Vendor/Manufacturer members 
  3.. No more than 10% to 25% of the fund could be allocated to any one 
disaster (Up to the committee to decide) 
  4.. Interference from another operator would not qualify as a disaster.. 
  5.. Smaller automatic monthly donation payments would be encouraged and 
accepted. 
  6.. Vendors would feel comfortable shipping product immediately if the fund 
was paying for the equipment. 
  7.. The receiver of emergency funds would pay back at least 80% (Percentage 
to be determined by the committee) of the funds appropriated on a payment plan 
to be determined by the committee 
  8.. Interest earned on the fund, would return to the fund. 
  9.. More thoughts  
 

 

Respectfully,

 

Rick Harnish

Executive Director

WISPA

260-307-4000 cell

866-317-2851 Option 2 WISPA Office

Skype: rick.harnish.

rharn...@wispa.org

 

 









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Re: [WISPA] Living Disaster Fund - Not a One Time Charity Event

[MDK]

I made a small donation, as well.   Come on guys, I know a lot of you are 
better off than me.   We should be able to make an adequate fund in 2 days  




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: MDK 
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:03 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Living Disaster Fund - Not a One Time Charity Event


If possible, the idea would be in cases where insurance is likely to eventually 
compensate, it could act as a loan, and the fund is replenished whenever 
insurance finally cuts a check.   Where there is not going to be insurance, 
perhaps the operator can agree to future payments for partial repayment...   

This would be the best way to avoid rapid depletion, while at the same time, 
donors never operate under the assumption that the whole of donations are 
simply gifts to someone who's suffered disaster.   

The other half of this, is that often help, especially the expert kind, is 
often as or more valuable than money... and a list of available volunteers for 
X purposes with X skills be maintained, as well.  People sign up for periods of 
time when available and periods when not.   Just to spread the risk around a 
bit.   



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Rick Harnish 
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:04 AM
To: memb...@wispa.org ; 'WISPA General List' ; us...@wug.cc ; 
motor...@afmug.com 
Subject: [WISPA] Living Disaster Fund - Not a One Time Charity Event


I would like to further clarify a few things.  Obviously, I am moving quickly 
on this immediate need, however, I did send the Board an email this morning 
recommending a Disaster Committee be established.  I also made some initial 
recommendations on how this fund would be administrated.  I invite comments 
below and we can move this along rather quickly.  It is definitely needed and 
will be beneficial to have in place.

 

This disaster started me thinking that we need to become more proactive (as 
Marlon has suggested many times in the past) rather than reacting at the moment 
of need.  I am thinking some of the rules of the fund, if established would be:

 

  1.. Disaster Fund donations would be kept in a separate Disaster Fund 
Account, not to be used for General WISPA operating expenses. 
  2.. Sponsorships of the Disaster Fund could be available to our 
Vendor/Manufacturer members 
  3.. No more than 10% to 25% of the fund could be allocated to any one 
disaster (Up to the committee to decide) 
  4.. Interference from another operator would not qualify as a disaster.. 
  5.. Smaller automatic monthly donation payments would be encouraged and 
accepted. 
  6.. Vendors would feel comfortable shipping product immediately if the fund 
was paying for the equipment. 
  7.. The receiver of emergency funds would pay back at least 80% (Percentage 
to be determined by the committee) of the funds appropriated on a payment plan 
to be determined by the committee 
  8.. Interest earned on the fund, would return to the fund. 
  9.. More thoughts  
 

 

Respectfully,

 

Rick Harnish

Executive Director

WISPA

260-307-4000 cell

866-317-2851 Option 2 WISPA Office

Skype: rick.harnish.

rharn...@wispa.org

 

 









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[WISPA] FCC not listening to us

[MDK]

Take what you read here with a grain of salt, the quality of articles is 
variable.   However,  that at some level, the hearings were a sham, is not 
to be disputed.

When partisans, who are motivated to implement political ideology, over 
stewardship of public assets, are appointed to office... this is what you 
get.   Everyone keeps accusing me of being political and I keep trying to 
tell you all that THEY are the ones who are bringing politics into your and 
my business, often partisan or ideologically radical politics, at that.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/2011/06/conn-carroll-documents-show-fcc-coordinated-net-neutrality-effort-outside

I said years ago it was a waste of time to try to generate "good will" in 
WAshington DC.   The other name for "good will" is bribery, and when the 
people change, all we did was start the history of both asking for and 
playing in a game of "who's got the most to offer".   From day one,  WISPA 
should have held a strident and inflexible position that ISP's are NOT to be 
subject to regulation, federal mandates, etc, and made friends of the 
organizations who would help us in that message and fight.

Instead, we've played into their hands and now have no history except one of 
"going along to get along", while a tiny, but influential number of us who 
are still trying to get their hands on other people's money, have managed to 
make WISPA's history one of non-opposition to mandates and regulation - 
while continually shouting that opposition to mandates and regulations and 
refusal to accept such mandates was "partisan politics" - "radical politics" 
at that.

I can't imagine and I'm not even trying to guess what percentage of WISP's 
believe as a matter of simple and straitforward principle that we should NOT 
be under the federal government's thumb, providing free labor for the 
benefit of politicians,  as a price of being "allowed" into business.But 
I can't imagine that percentage being any less than almost all of us.

It was and is, and always will be perfectly NON PARTISAN notion that 
businesses should be free to operate without providing blackmail money or 
free labor to politicians to serve the public's needs.   It isn't even 
political.   It's a rational and perfectly sensible idea for any 
businessperson to hold.   And any American, for that matter.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

 




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Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

[MDK]

Nice re-write of history, Forbes.   Who are you trying to protect?

It is NOT Congress which has been the motivating factor behind the FCC's 
anti-competitive behavior... It has been the administration and the people 
that this administration have appointed and have hired, combined with a 
small number of extreme left-wing groups who have been pushing Net 
Neutrality, etc.   It was NEVER Congress that pushed this.

Your effort to see spectrum auctioned is not so much a matter of lobbyists 
having taken over Congress as it is a matter of Congress finding ways to 
raise money.   A later poster reminded us that not only is Congress 
unfamiliar with what we do and how we do it - along with why we are needed - 
the FCC is just as ignorant as well.   Despite that fact that WISPA has 
communicated, the FCC people as a whole just DO NOT GRASP the realities of 
free market service providers.

Until the readers were so sore here that nobody would talk to me, and 
threatened to expel me, I tried to explain how WISPA needed to take a 
PRINCIPLED STAND at the time WISPA began to be noticed in DC, that we 
believed in Free Markets and freedom to do business, without being 
encumbered (killed) by federal regulation.

To this day, WISPA has no published principles which say that it, or you, 
believe in  free markets, open competition, and consumer - oriented 
stewardship of the nation's RF spectrum-rather than auctioning the assets to 
the largest bidder.  Instead, WISPA has a history of alternatively being for 
and against various actions - mostly based upon whether or not it was 
financially a win for the larger voices of WISPA.

This lack of principled direction has now come and bitten us in the 
backside, potentially lethally.   The central notion we have to fight is 
that spectrum should be auctioned (revenue to the feds) to the highest 
bidder.   And someone, in their ignorance, has managed to commit an idea 
commensurate to your local city government suddenly deciding to create a 
"license to sell groceries"  and has structured it so that it is all tied to 
one auction, where any deep pockets bidder can remove the ability of all the 
incumbents to stay in business.   Instead of educating Congress, the FCC 
,and our allies (if we have any) about how freedom to be in business has 
been the central mechanism by which a vast swath of America has great 
internet service,  we've quibbled over dollars and rules and tried to slant 
them for us against others - the very thinking we must now defeat.

I have said we all stand on freedom, or fall together, and for this I have 
been branded as a radical, idiot, moron, right wing extremist, and so on - 
as such principles are, according to the self proclaimed 'wise men' of the 
group, outdated and unworkable.   Until we need them, of course.  Even the 
tortured and twisted explanation below is still trying to defend the big 
government crapola, and by now, it better be as clear and obvious to you, as 
a just hammered thumbnail, that NOTHING ELSE MATTERS IF WE DO NOT HAVE THE 
FREEDOM TO BE IN BUSINESS.

I was at founding of WISPA.   I was there within a week or two of the 
interest list being formed, and I joined and donated money, until previous 
people of WISPA were found by me to be advocating FCC mandates on us.   At 
which I resigned and will not rejoin until my money is no longer at risk of 
being used against our basic and fundamental freedoms.

YEARS have been sqandered, because WISPA failed to advocate for freedom 
first, a consistent, principled basis for everything said, advocacy 
positions, etc.  Now, you have to suddenly "get religion", because 
EVERYONE's freedom is at stake, even our competition's,.   Rather than 
advocate for that, WISPA now has a history just as compromised as AT&T's and 
every lobbyist's, because it stood for little more than trying to bend the 
rules to favor US instead of "THEM".   Expediently, we've "discovered" that 
open markets mean open to competition, as well, something not advocated by 
WISPA before.

I said in 2009 that there were people headed for Congress, a sea change 
coming, and that WISPA needed to get politically allied with the pro freedom 
crowd.  They were called radicals and idiots on this list instead.

If you have even ONCE advocated for big government intervention...  For 
money your way, for regulation to favor you instead of them, for a chance to 
get your hands on the subsidies, or IN ANY WAY supported the notion of 
government intervention in the markets YOU are directly to blame for the 
mess we're facing.   YOU failed to stand for the ONE thing that matters, 
freedom.   I sure hope we win this fight.

When I started posting about defending your right to be in business several 
years ago, it was because I had envisioned this happening, it was written on 
the wall, in big letters.  I told you so.  Are you going to get serious, or 
this just going to be just more arguments of convenience?


+++

Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

[MDK]

A "plan of action"?  If I said "this is what WISPA should do" and laid it 
out in detail, all you'd do is say "who are you?  Why should we hacve to do 
what you say?"

Frankly, I have no idea why you're having difficulty.  You see, when you 
have proper business principles as your guiding mechanism, what you should 
do is crystal clear.   Nobody needs to write out a plan of action, it 
becomes self evident - you always advocate FOR the proper and best thing. 
And, after being consistent, year after year, and when stuff like this comes 
up, which becomes so blatantly obviously a result of failure to follow true 
principle, again, nothing is obscure or difficult.

Additionally, I said absolutely NOTHING partisan.   Not even ideological. 
It's simple straightforward business principles.   Principle Numero Uno is 
"have the freedom to be in business", and there is nothing convoluted or 
difficult about that.

You seem to be interested in mere expediency.   That's what's gotten us to 
this crisis point, the idea of managing the favoritism, the cronyism, etc, 
to favor you, or at least not hurt you too much.   That's what's BEEN going 
on.  Had we (WISPA) been looking for and actively seeking allies who would 
with us, say with many voices, but one message - "hands off, and be a 
steward of what's entrusted to you", I think the landscape would look 
different.  The word "steward" is loaded.  It means one entrusted to manage 
things for the benefit OF THE OWNER, that's us.The FCC and Congress are 
managing for the benefit of the federal treasury and the donations to 
campaigns - which is the polar opposite of managed for the good of the 
people.

In the previous post, I wrote an analogy, one where the city effectively 
puts every service and business up for licensure at auction.  It takes no 
imagination at all to see that the city coffers and the winning bidder are 
the beneficiaries and the people are the losers.   Spectrum is a public or 
national resource held in trust by the federal government.   Auctions to the 
highest bidder do not benefit anyone but the monopoly holder and the 
treasury, by creating monopolies or very limited competition.   Again, we as 
consumers and businessmen are the losers.  Imagine if there were enough 
spectrum delegated so that if us WISP's wanted to be mobile broadband 
providers we could, as well as cellular, or even video / audio broadcasters. 
Instead, such services have been delegated a minute slice of available 
spectrum, keeping up the price of the auctions - and the number of 
competitors down.

Why?   It is in the interest of politicians to separate us from our money. 
But their REAL job is to defend us keeping it.  There are NOW myriad 
political allies to spread this message, to change the discussion from "whom 
to screw out of lots of money" to "what is the best policy for the people 
and keep competition alive?"   And, that's the message that is NOT being 
advocated by WISPA, and it should be.

You seem to think that the answer is to find the right pol to influence and 
the right committee members to lobby and the right allies to obstruct X or 
advance Y, but those are expediency, not principle.   They should be TACTICS 
to a principled purpose, one that will attract others, on the basis of its 
soundness and validity.

And lastly, about the FCC, the last administration's appointees were 
advocates for free markets and for competition and deregulation.  Not 
particularly effective ones, but at least they were not our enemy.   The 
current administration's people at the FCC are IN NO WAY our friend, for any 
way, manner, or purpose, and everything they want is bad for us and the 
country.  STop talking political party talking points, and get some reality.



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Faisal Imtiaz" 
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

> Errr...  and your point is ?
>
> Ok, I am a nobody... I have seen / read your emails, not once can I say
> I have been able to pick out a proposed specific, action or a plan of
> action from you 
>
> My friend you and I can agree or dis-agree on concepts all day long...
> but the point still remains ... I for myself still am not able to
> ascertain what exactly is it that you have been proposing ? ( I
> understand the anger at all of the powers to be part...and I beg to
> differ when you start blaming ..'this administration'. I personally
> have been watching and following the FCC stuff, on sliding slopes, for
> the last 12 years..that according to my calculations has been multiple
> administrations.)
>
> You clear your head, and try to articulate your position in a
> non-partisan manner, which can be understood by the general public, and
> put forward a reasonably understandab

Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

[MDK]

Ok, lets get this in perspective.   I am one, uno, sole, lone person.  While 
I believe I am right, I am NOT interested in saying I have a right to impose 
my views on all this stuff on all the other members of WISPA.   Two years 
ago, I asked, prodded, and then nagged, to see if WISPA would voluntarily 
attempt to get some kind of consensus or perhaps at least write a standard 
of principles when it comes to the business philosophy.  I was booed down.

Like it or not, the semi-political aspects of business, being forced on us 
by an intrusive government, have to be dealt with.  Do you as members 
believe you have a RIGHT to be in business?  Without needing a license from 
some authority?  Do you actually believe in free and unencumbered 
enterprise?  Or does consensus fall elsewhere philosophically?

What are the guiding principles that drive WISPA's policy stands?  Is it 
just advantage for ourselves, however or wherever it can be found, including 
trying to get public money with strings that further tie our industry, or do 
you shoot for freedom first?  If it's not the latter, then me joining will 
not change the philosophy of WISPA and it's advocacy, and I see it's efforts 
as ultimately being negative, not positive for my life and future - 
translated as "no money from me".

Previous conversations on this list lead to a realization that some people 
are afraid to advocate a philosophy that runs counter to whatever ideology 
the regulators hold - as if being "yes men" will curry favor and therefore 
crumbs will fall in greater quantity from the master's table in DC.  But if 
you had a clear philosophy up front, I think you could attract far more 
allies, the kind that stick with you, and help change the conversation. 
You keep asking for people to  to set up and WORK for what you want, but 
continue to refuse to say what it is you intend to work for.

I again ask for the leadership to demonstrate leadership and make a clear 
and unambiguous philosophical stand - and if I can agree with it, then I 
will support with time and dollars and energy.   But until I know it's 
something I can back with a clear conscience, I (and others, as well) remain 
on the sidelines.

++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Forbes Mercy" 
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 3:19 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

> I'm sorry I guess I missed you at the Legislative Committee list when I
> was putting this together sending out drafts and asking for comments and
> help .  WISPA is a representation of those who show up to help
> formulate consensus and policy, not my personal views.  So easy to throw
> darts at the end result when you wouldn't be part of the process, isn't 
> it?
>
 




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Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

[MDK]

+100 Rick.  And it is this fundamental philosophical perspective that I am 
asking WISPA to answer - what is the official position?   If there is none, 
then are all the positions and statements and arguments just convenient at the 
moment?   Does WISPA advocate for things that will result in higher regulatory 
hurdles?   

Where is the "We have a fundamental belief that free enterprise, unencumbered 
by artificial spectrum shortages or regulatory barriers is the only viable 
solution to America's broadband needs" statement?   And a few other statements 
of principles against which every written statement and every proposal is 
measured?   

Thus, all committees and all writers and all communication remains consistent 
in philosophy and message?   Is this being political?   Soemwhat, but the need 
to be so has been shoved upon us and if we're not dealing with it, then I see 
little hope of being a conversation leader, rather than just a "I wanna be 
heard" like all the rest.  

++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: RickG 
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:03 PM
To: fai...@snappydsl.net ; WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire


"it is Regulation (1996 Telecom Act) that
allowed us (ISP's) to be able to go into the business of providing
internet access and other communication services"

With all due respect, it's exactly the mindset that government "allows" us to 
be in business that IS the problem. Telecom Act or no, regulation or no, there 
should be no question that we are allowed to make a living the way we want to 
regardless.




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Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

[MDK]

Mark, you seem to think that what I'm advocating is a 'dream' or some kind of 
old fashioned fantasy.  To correct your mistake here, I must point out that the 
"system" you seem to want to continue has brought this nation to the brink of 
bankrtuptcy, destroyed our industrial and scientific base, our technology base 
has eroded, our information age has enabled our competitors now, and we're 
rapidly proceeding to a nation full of people who  feed each other at 
mcdonald's, mow each other's lawns, provide internet, and lend each other money 
- or, in terms of reality, a fantasy.  

The history of our current telecom industry points to only one thing... 
Congress is wholesale inept at regulating business, services or industry.   We 
have 5 bazillion laws, all being targeted for efforts to gain advantage for 
this or that segment, or for this, or against that industry.  While we have 
played in the tide pools, away from the ocean sized breakers of Congressional 
and Federal controls, it has abundantly clear that what is going on is not 
sustainable, not good, not even faintly viable.   

I am not advocating a fantasy... I am advocating a restoration of the PROPER 
governance our constitution provided and served us so incredibly well while we 
stuck to it.  And, has done such immense damage when we ignored it. 

I am confused about why you think that WISPA and all other ISP organizations 
should not propose a clear philosophical message that FREE MARKETS WORK.  Duhh, 
we know they do, we compete as best we can, hobbled by the regulatory structure 
that grants others certain advantages, etc.  There's NOTHING wrong with the 
idea that Congress should set about undoing the sins of the last generations.  

Furthermore, as someone said, WISPA itself should, just because it is an 
advocacy organization, have a clear and unambiguous philosophy on what the 
organization is going to advocate for, not just WHO it advocates for - and I 
recall the heated discussions on that topic.  


++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++





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Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire

[MDK]

The thing is, he has no constitutional authority for ANY of this.  

Instead, we have the three blind mice trying to make the country work.   WE 
know what we're doing and how to get it done.  They need to respect that they 
don't know squat and need to get the heck out of the way.  

++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Mark Nash 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:28 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Legislative Situation Is Dire


As much as I can feel for you Sam, put yourself in 
government-man-decision-maker shoes.  Put your money where you think it will be 
successful, and small players can't provide that assurance.  It's just too much 
of a gamble.  That's how I would feel I would think.  This is a high-tech 
service better left up to high-tech companies. (from their perspective).  Never 
mind that there is success happening in small doses everywhere.  It's a 
question of confidence and CYA'ing on the part of the decision-makers.




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Re: [WISPA] Weekend Politics that Make Sense

[MDK]

The mythical starving Congresscritter has never been located.  If one had ever 
been found, I'd be prepared to agree with you.   But, since most of them are 
far wealthier than you and I have any chance to be, then I'd say this is 
invalid. 

The fact of the matter, is that issue at hand is who holds the power.   
Congress and the federal government have vastly too much power.   The idea that 
they can demand you and I to obtain a permit or implement some network notion 
is absurdly insane.It is sheer lunacy beyond all measure of sense, 
intelligence, or reason.  The Constitution never gave them those powers.  But, 
with those powers being exercised, EVERYONE HAS AN INTEREST IN CORRUPTING 
CONGRESS TO HELP THEM.  If Congress can't make you buy insurance, can't make 
you build a house with 8 million added on expenses that fund special interests 
( low flow toilets, cars with air bags, all sorts of other sheer lunacy), then 
they have no reason to try to corrupt Congress either.  

The matter is, that Congress has vastly too much money, too much power, and 
thus,  IS INHERENTLY CORRUPT.The only cure is to restore the Constitution 
and limit Congress to those few, specific items it shoulid be doing, with all 
the oversight and checks and balances that were built in.   

Do that, and our debt problems vanish overnight, our economic problems vanish 
with it, and our social problems start mending - FAST.EVERY "crisis" facing 
America is directly caused by exceeding the boundaries that are plainly written 
into our Constitution.   




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: Tom DeReggi 
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 9:45 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Weekend Politics that Make Sense


To explain my mentality on that...

I believe most congressman are people with good intentions who want to do good 
for their state, and effect posititve change. Intentions are always good.  If 
they weren't they never would have got into politics in the first place.  Many 
have high ethical morals, to fight for the cause, and never consider selling 
out their beliefs.  Most people when they have a decent amount of money that 
affords them a fine basic life without to much compromise, its usually enough, 
for them to stay strong to their morals.  The issue comes when a congressman 
has to choose between his family and his constituents. Family will always be 
more important 


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Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality

[MDK]

If I ever post anything in regards to it will be:

"Hey, FCC, I claim my Constitution right to be unencumbered by laws which 
neither you nor Congress have any authority to write, go stick your head in 
the sand!"  Sincerely:  John Q Public.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Josh Luthman" 
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 3:19 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality

> If a legislator or someone from the FCC reads that I'm going to be
> pretty irritated.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Dennis Burgess  
> wrote:
>> Yes, we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason at 
>> any time. We will insure our network runs as fast as possible for 
>> interactive web applications.  If you feel that we are blocking something 
>> you need, then you can go back to dialup.  Ahhahaha
>>
>> ---
>> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>> Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>> LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training - Author of "Learn RouterOS"
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Matt
>>> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 3:43 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality
>>>
>>> > I am working with two law firms which I hope to announce today, that 
>>> > will
>>> be
>>> > marketing Open Internet (Net Neutrality) Disclosure Compliance
>>> Statements
>>> > templates or assistance at a relatively low cost.  They are doing this 
>>> > for
>>> > WISPA members.  All ISP's must be in compliance and have statements on
>>> their
>>> > websites by November 20th.  There is a bit of homework that will need 
>>> > to
>>> be
>>> > done by each WISP about their network, management practices,
>>> throughputs,
>>> > etc. that may not be accomplished if you wait until the last minute.
>>> >
>>> > Again, my hope is to get this out today or Monday morning, maybe both!
>>>
>>> Have any ISP's posted this on there website already?  Curious what it
>>> looks like?
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> 
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>> 
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality

[MDK]

Tom:

I understand your position that we should respect authority, but there's 
also the fact that sometimes, you have to stand up to people who are not 
supposed to be doing what they're doing, even when in government office.

As far as it goes, I have nothing to lose, really.  While the business is 
self sustaining, and makes me a small profit, I have never been in this bad 
of shape in my life.   10 months ago, the wife was injured at work,  4 
months ago, the injury, though treated and investigated, reached the point 
she could no longer work.  The workmen's comp insurer decided to try to duck 
any responsibility, and now lawyers are dragging them kicking and fighting 
all the way, but it's going to take months to get this done, with endless 
hearings and legal dodging and gamesmanship.   Even when or if we win (and 
we should) it means many more months of surgery, recovery, therapy.

At this point,  we're down to our last few bucks, I don't make enough to pay 
even the rent+utilities+cell phones.  So, if they want to try to squeeze me 
for money...  bring it on, I got nuttin, honey.   They just can't hurt me 
anymore than we've been hurt, so, I got nothing to lose.   And further,  I'm 
fighting mad.  Just one more "authority" showing up with a big stick saying 
"work for me for nothing, you slave!"



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Tom DeReggi" 
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 2:54 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality

> At the end of the day it boils down to whether its justified for a WISP to
> risk going to court.
> Admittedly, any government industry can cause a private company a lot of
> pain, if they want to, if you challenge them.
> That is not something someone should consider doing, lightly.
>
> With that said sometimes one must take a stand to defend their rights
> and what they believe in.
> Even if not cost effective for their own good, if its for the good of 
> their
> industry.
>
> Just like BrandX, eventually someone had to step up to take it to trial, 
> win
> or loose.
> If a WISP was put in a position that they had to go to court, I bet that
> other third party groups would be willing to assist fund the battle behind
> the scenes.
> I'm not talking just other WISPs. I'm talking about other big money
> companies that couldn't risk a netneutrality loss on the court record,
> documenting presidence.
>
> My "opinion" is that it would not be wise for the federal enforcement
> agencies to target small organizations to challenge their rulemaking in
> court.
> One, It would be a media/publicity nightmare.  Such as  "FCC puts small
> business out of business".
> Two, It would be embaressing, and make FCC look weak. "Bully FCC picks on
> the little guy".
> Three, Small WISPs would gain more sympathee from Juries than Big money
> Telcos.
>
> In my "opinion" the FCC rule making is not legal. Atleast not for those 
> that
> aren't telecom act defined regulated carriers.  And in my opinion, a WISP
> could simply refuse to comply, and demand that the FCC obtain a court 
> order
> to back their claim of authority. If the FCC came knocking on my door to
> enforce an alledged NetNeutrality issue, I would fight it.
>
> I think the "disclosure portion" is the one good part of the FCC 
> rulemaking.
> For that reason, I plan to comply with the disclosure portion, just 
> because
> it makes good sense to do it anyway. Not to mention it would be just plain
> stupid not to comply to such an easy request, which would be almost like
> "requesting a challenge", not to cooperate on such an easy request.  Plus,
> not disclosing info could open up a WISP to legal issues covered by laws 
> not
> related to NetNeutrality, such as truth in advertising. Disclosure should 
> be
> vague, so not to self inciminate more than necessary.
>
> But as far as complying to the other rules of NetNeutrality, I am going to
> operate my network the way I want to, and I'm not going to change that,
> unless I'm forced to.
>
> Please note, in general I respect the FCC's authority, and my viewpoint
> stated herein is strictly relating to "NetNeutrality".
>
> Hopefully, I as well as other WISPs will operate their networks fairly, so
> this issue never has to come up. So many issues could be defended by
> "reasonable network mangement", to defend oneself without the need for
> court.
>
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tony Iacopi" 
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality
>
>
> Hi there,
>
> Unfortunately I would love to agree with Matt and the fact that I paid for
> the network so I should be able to do what I want with it, however, the 
> way
> it is currently written, if you provide internet serv

Re: [WISPA] Neighbor Sharing Internet

[MDK]

I don't do anything.  I will do tech support ONLY for the paying person, and 
won't respond to complaints of "slow" or anything else.

Am I losing money?   Mulitple perspectives;   1.  I've got a customer that 
pays a bill.   2. if I prohibit it, there's probably not much chance they'll 
all sign up.  3.  I have no data use tracking anymore, so I don't know who's 
doing what.   4.  I know if the one paying the bill leaves, that  the 
other(s) will immediately call and re-up in another name.

Potentially lost revenue isn't lost...  It's just what you don't have.  If 
we fret ourselves into a stroke over "potentially lost",  life would be 
hell.

As it is, I have bigger fish to fry and more pressing issues at hand.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Matt" 
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:56 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Neighbor Sharing Internet

> What do you do when you find out that a customer is using a wireless
> router to share Internet with neighbor and splitting the bill?  I am
> sure there are quite a few doing this but when they out right tell you
> about it when on a tech call is rare.  It is against our TOS.
>
> What do others do?
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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[WISPA] Net Neutrality

[MDK]

Monday morning I got a phone call from a 202 number and answered it.   The 
name sounded vaguely familiar, but he finally identified himself as the 
assistant to my congressman.   Ahh, now I know why I recognize the name. 
Been in politics around here for many years.   State and federal.

Thursday or Friday, I stumbled across a news story of my US Rep praising the 
FCC's "changes" to USF, which, from descriptions, look bad for me and most 
of us, as it involves "subsidizing rural wireless" (insert cellular for 
"wireless" and you get the gist) I was ticked as you can imagine, because 
he's literally from a small town where WISP's play a signficant role in 
broadband availablity.

Well, I guess I must have used the right combination of words, because he 
(the assistant to my US Rep)  wanted to know what it was I thought.  Well, 
we had 20 minute conversation, where I explained that we as an industry are 
often the only viable operators for small "niche" areas where it simply is 
impossible to string wires or bury cables or whatever, in a cost effective 
manner (and he knows precisely what I mean, he drives the same roads and 
knows the same places I do), and now, someone's going to apply to get USF 
money to come and build right out over us, with subsidized funding.

He didn't disagree with that assessment, btw, and asked what I thought 
should be done.   Abolish, of course.   In his view, the term of life for 
continual subsidy of rural telecom via USF has been abruptly shortened, and, 
they're at least talking about ending any continuous subsidy for anyone.  Of 
course, they can't end USF, because Congress made it law, but ending it is 
certainly an option in House, he implied.

Further, we've reached the point where much of rural broadband is hampered 
by beaurocratic obstruction as much as anything else.  the need to use 
public land, or telephone pole access, or power pole access,  federal land 
use, and numerous other expensive and complicated matters.   I explained 
that it has traditionally been that people with great skill for beaurocracy 
get the money, but rarely seem to have great skill at getting customers 
happy and resourceful at accomplishing the technical challenges.  That 
subsidy causes business models to be built on it, rather than sustainable 
competitive operations.

That we need the markets open to being able to enter the phone, tv, and 
internet business with whatever the appropriate technology, without endless 
hurdles in our way.   No idea if it did any good, but at least one person, 
who is at the top of the issues that matter to us in the house, got some 
input from the ground level.




++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

 




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Re: [WISPA] Neighbor Sharing Internet

[MDK]

My customer agreement on "acceptable use" says "interfering with proper 
operation of the network" and "abuse of bandwidth" and "breaking the laws of 
the land" as matters that get my attention.  It's simple and has yet to be a 
matter of any contention with any customer.



++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++

--
From: "Sam Tetherow" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:51 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Neighbor Sharing Internet

> It's not fretting myself over potentially lost revenue.  It is a
> customer breaking the acceptable use policy.
>
> If you don't have a problem with customers sharing internet by all means
> don't list that as unacceptable use, your network, your rules.
>
> For me I see it as leaving money on the table.  It is listed as not
> allowed in my acceptable use policy and if I find it occurring I remind
> the customer that sharing internet with neighbors is not allowed and
> offer to help them secure the network.  I spin it as you don't want them
> 'stealing' your internet, and you don't want them dragging down your
> speed.  If they say they know about it and condone it I remind them
> again that it is against policy and if it continues I will have to
> disconnect them.
>
> If someone can get something for free, pay half price or pay full price,
> 11 times out of 10 they will go with free.  Will I gain customer #2?
> Sometimes.  Will I lose customer #1?   Sometimes, but if don't do
> anything I will never gain customer #2 and it negatively impacts my
> network as I now have more resources used and I gain no additional
> revenue.  It also sets the precedent that the acceptable use policy does
> not need to be adhered to.
>
> On 11/1/11 12:38 PM, MDK wrote:
>> I don't do anything.  I will do tech support ONLY for the paying person, 
>> and
>> won't respond to complaints of "slow" or anything else.
>>
>> Am I losing money?   Mulitple perspectives;   1.  I've got a customer 
>> that
>> pays a bill.   2. if I prohibit it, there's probably not much chance 
>> they'll
>> all sign up.  3.  I have no data use tracking anymore, so I don't know 
>> who's
>> doing what.   4.  I know if the one paying the bill leaves, that  the
>> other(s) will immediately call and re-up in another name.
>>
>> Potentially lost revenue isn't lost...  It's just what you don't have. 
>> If
>> we fret ourselves into a stroke over "potentially lost",  life would be
>> hell.
>>
>> As it is, I have bigger fish to fry and more pressing issues at hand.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ++
>> Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
>> 541-969-8200  509-386-4589
>> ++
>>
>> --
>> From: "Matt"
>> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:56 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List"
>> Subject: [WISPA] Neighbor Sharing Internet
>>
>>> What do you do when you find out that a customer is using a wireless
>>> router to share Internet with neighbor and splitting the bill?  I am
>>> sure there are quite a few doing this but when they out right tell you
>>> about it when on a tech call is rare.  It is against our TOS.
>>>
>>> What do others do?
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> 
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>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality

[MDK]

We had quite a conversation on TVWS, actually.   I explained how rules prohibit 
its use in so many instances that though it's a huge effort, where I live, for 
instance, there's no more than 2 channels.   If that.  Also, that HAAT rules 
seriously block deployment in areas where it would be most useful (mountains, 
forest).   
++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  509-386-4589
++


From: John Scrivner 
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:10 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Net Neutrality


Glad to hear someone up there in DC is listening. Did you happen to mention 
anything about our need of access to TVWS? 
Scriv



On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:56 PM, MDK  wrote:


  Monday morning I got a phone call from a 202 number and answered it.   The
  name sounded vaguely familiar, but he finally identified himself as the
  assistant to my congressman.   Ahh, now I know why I recognize the name.
  Been in politics around here for many years.   State and federal.

  Thursday or Friday, I stumbled across a news story of my US Rep praising the
  FCC's "changes" to USF, which, from descriptions, look bad for me and most
  of us, as it involves "subsidizing rural wireless" (insert cellular for
  "wireless" and you get the gist) I was ticked as you can imagine, because
  he's literally from a small town where WISP's play a signficant role in
  broadband availablity.

  Well, I guess I must have used the right combination of words, because he
  (the assistant to my US Rep)  wanted to know what it was I thought.  Well,
  we had 20 minute conversation, where I explained that we as an industry are
  often the only viable operators for small "niche" areas where it simply is
  impossible to string wires or bury cables or whatever, in a cost effective
  manner (and he knows precisely what I mean, he drives the same roads and
  knows the same places I do), and now, someone's going to apply to get USF
  money to come and build right out over us, with subsidized funding.

  He didn't disagree with that assessment, btw, and asked what I thought
  should be done.   Abolish, of course.   In his view, the term of life for
  continual subsidy of rural telecom via USF has been abruptly shortened, and,
  they're at least talking about ending any continuous subsidy for anyone.  Of
  course, they can't end USF, because Congress made it law, but ending it is
  certainly an option in House, he implied.

  Further, we've reached the point where much of rural broadband is hampered
  by beaurocratic obstruction as much as anything else.  the need to use
  public land, or telephone pole access, or power pole access,  federal land
  use, and numerous other expensive and complicated matters.   I explained
  that it has traditionally been that people with great skill for beaurocracy
  get the money, but rarely seem to have great skill at getting customers
  happy and resourceful at accomplishing the technical challenges.  That
  subsidy causes business models to be built on it, rather than sustainable
  competitive operations.

  That we need the markets open to being able to enter the phone, tv, and
  internet business with whatever the appropriate technology, without endless
  hurdles in our way.   No idea if it did any good, but at least one person,
  who is at the top of the issues that matter to us in the house, got some
  input from the ground level.





  ++
  Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
  541-969-8200  509-386-4589
  ++






  

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[WISPA] It's been a ride... Some up, some down.

[MDK]

As the anniversary of my full 8th year actively in the wireless internet 
business is here, I decided to make some comments.  My interest in wireless 
internet, and actual efforts to actually start doing  it are now 14 years old.  
 Yes, really, it was that long ago.  And I'm feeling much older these days. 

My first internet venture failed quite spectacularly.   I think I made every 
mistake one could make, and didn't learn every lesson there was to learn, 
either.   But it did help, as I did not repeat a bunch of things that were 
fatal.  The most important one was to not start with vastly larger bills than 
your revenue.   Growth doesn't always come in rapid fashion.   And there's a 
cost to all growth. Know before you make that leap, what the consequences will 
be. 

Over the last few years, I've been known to get what some people call 
"political".   Perhaps it is, I say it isn't.  It's just common sense business 
principles.  It was one of my first lessons - learn how to preserve your future 
flexibility, because THINGS CHANGE.  That, too, was one of my first mistakes.  
I had no alternatives, really, to travelling down the road I started on, which 
was a seriously bad mistake.  That ability to be flexible, to violate the 
"rules" of internet by wire, is what created the WISP business in the first 
place, and yet, it's one of the things that's been done the most damage to, and 
faces the largest threats in the future. 

This post is probably my last, as it concerns things WISPA.   I have given up 
on WISPA completely.  Mostly for the reasons above.  While WISPA was being 
formed, I had the self-generated illusion that fellow  WISPS's would be all 
about getting, expanding, and maintaining the freedom to be in business.  We're 
notorious for being rogues, cowboys, unconventional, and extremely 
individualistic.  It would have never occurred to me that one or more founders 
of WISPA would go to the FCC and tell them that they should create reporting 
mandates and then encourage regulation of our industry.  My shock when I 
learned that was a kind of "rock your world" kind of thing.   And anger.  
Serious anger.   How dare people undertake to put us under the thumb of the 
utterly incompetent idiots in Washington DC?  If you want to live that way, go 
live some place like that, don't undertake to force it upon me.   That's the 
essence of the American attitude, history, and the very thing that built this 
country. 

Over the years, I've come to realize that unlike me, few of our industry have 
any such lesson learned.  The idea of getting free money or loans or other 
favors in the form of money from government or government actions has lured 
them into becoming just another faction of the crony capitalism that has all 
but destroyed our nation's economy, currency, and threatens to finish the job, 
rapid-fire.  WISPA certainly doesn't seem to have any interest in telling 
Washington DC to go pound sand, and do what is the morally, economically, and 
Constitutionally  right and proper thing. Leave us the HELL ALONE!  Stop 
pretending that DC is the source of goodness, and stop pretending that they 
have even an IOTA of the answers for what ails the country and how to supply 
our needs.  They do not. 

I won't waste your time with explanations of what I want, after all, either 
you're in agreement, or else your only interest is in creating false portrayals 
to attack me personally, calling me an "anti-government nut" or any of 100 
other senseless phrases. Some of you I've gotten to know a bit over the years, 
and I have no idea if any of you are on this list anymore.   Maybe someone will 
post this where everyone can read it if they want.  Why we can't advocate for 
economic and business operation freedom anymore is completely beyond my 
comprehension.  Especially since we're supposed be about business, a business 
which exists solely because  of that amazing concept of economic and personal 
liberty otherwise known as capitalism - or free enterprise - take your pick.  
It offends too many, and those who it doesn't are too too timid to stand for 
what they think in the presence of the socialist bullies. 

It's my wish and my prayer as well, that all of you have a good life, a 
prosperous future, health, and happiness.   But I hold out little hope, long 
term.  Unless things change, we're all going away, our plans and enterprises 
massacred by the attitude that all our needs are merely a utilitarian function 
of government.  Still, I hope the best for all - and always have and always 
will.  

Mark


++
Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy
541-969-8200  
++


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Re: [WISPA] It's been a ride... Some up, some down.

[MDK]

There was a time, Marlon, when I would have agreed with you.   Except that I've 
been paying attention for a quite a few years...  "compromise" is what got us 
to this.  Not galloping, leaps and bounds, unhindered statism, but the exact 
compromise you are talking about - it ALWAYS goes in one direction.  The only 
"compromise" has been how far and how much.  It's the ratchet effect.  
Sometimes not moving, but NEVER going in the right direction.  It has found its 
way into every detail of every thing.   So, no, no more compromising.  I'm 
done.  It's now REVERSE.  Not compromise on "not as much more" but, NO MORE, 
and NOW LESS.   And if you're (WISPA) not actively acting to accomplish that, 
then it's actively hindering that action.  It's on the wrong side.  It's like 
travelling a road.  You're going to go one way... Or the other.  There isn't a 
compromise, if you're not going north, you're going south, if you're not going 
east, you're going west, and there is no such thing as standing still without 
being pointed in some direction.  

You say that you alone can't do anything.That I can't.  I agree.   But it 
has to start...somewhere.  If Uncle Sam came running, handing me "free money" I 
would not take it - and I, personally, have never been personally in as 
precarious financially as I am now, with no assurance I'll even have a home 
from one week to the next.   It's called "principle", Marlon.  I have no right 
to what other people have worked for, or will work for in the next 50 years ( 
paying interest on our ocean of debt), and I will not take it.   In fact, it 
has to start with EVERY ONE OF US, not just how we vote, but how we act, how we 
talk to our neighbors, how we make our decisions, and what ideas we promote.   
I can't say "I'm for this" and then not live it.  

It's pure hypocrisy to say "you gotta live with the system".   No, you don't.  
You have the freedom to still say "no".   You have the freedom to NOT take CRP 
or RUS loans, or look for ways to get USF funding, for instance.  But, if 
you're willing to sell the use of your land for the pittance they give you, 
then you have no claim to saying you're 'with me', because you're not - you're 
completely willing to agree with, and take money from a program that robs one 
set of citizens to give money to another, plain and simple.  And look how 
widespread acceptance is among people who would otherwise claim to be small 
government conservatives.  I'm grateful you're now telling them to end USF and 
other stuff, but you know it's not going away until the Congress makes it go 
away.   

But Congress (and whoever is president) isn't going to make it go away until a 
very large majority of us, the people, demand it.  And no such demands are 
going to happen until we (you, me, and every single other person) have made the 
case for free markets, economic freedom, freedom to be in business, freedom of 
innovation, and freedom from political burdens with no redeeming value 
whatsoever.  But we're not there.   You're as helpful to the cause as the 
current president, because you're (and maybe not you, personally, Marlon, this 
has NEVER been about you in a personal way... My conversations referenced 
before... were not with you.  I've have conversations you don't know about) 
still willing to take money in opposition to what you claim to think.  Until 
we're not, Marlon, then we're not really believing what we're saying ,and of 
course, if we're not, we're never going to convince the country it has to 
change, or face a crisis beyond those of recorded history.  

Is WISPA making the case, not to just DC, but to the members as well, industry 
wide, that free markets solve problems?   Does the organization actively 
promote unfettered competition, by its members?  Does it make the case that "no 
subsidies" is, in fact, the only truly viable business and national strategy?   
If not, then WISPA is still in diametric opposition to me.   Does WISPA 
leadership routinely offer workshops on how individual WISP's can find 
opportunity to be those free market powerhouses?  And why and how you should 
stand on your own and why you should not get tangled up in trying to get a few 
dollars in exchange for a lack of autonomy?   

Going back to CRP, the people who signed up didn't see it in the terms I've 
posted.   Because we're conditioned to not think about it.  Because so many of 
us just see the dollars and don't apply forgotten principles that matter.   
Look how many millions of people went and borrowed money on a loan guaranteed 
by our federal government - many of which I'm sure, still claim to be for 
freedom, for limited government, and so on.   Look how it has corrupted us as a 
people, that we'll now give up almost anything we believe in for a few dollars 
or other material or monetary  benefit.  Nothing will change, until we're ready 
to live by what we think, and start doing so, and that includes our businesses, 
our financial lives, an

Re: [WISPA] USF changes?

[MDK]

Yes, they do understand it.   You're not understanding the point.The 
telcos have big bucks to lobby with, and benefit the regulators.   We do 
not.Thus, we will NEVER be on their "list".We cannot get onto the 
top of the rolodex until we have millions with which to lobby, and can 
legally bribe a bunch of government agencies.

There is no benefit to offering them data, free labor, etc.The mandates 
will get larger, deeper, more and more costly, and the benefits promised by 
certain individuals will never EVER happen.   And, should it ever reach the 
point we actually pinch the telcos or cablecos enough for them to get 
concerned, they will call in the favors and have us obliterated.   Welcome 
to the new generation of thug politics in DC.   Just look what's happening 
to broadcast industry, the insurance industry, etc."You exist to benefit 
our political aspirations.  The moment you fail in that regard, you will be 
shredded, beaten, whipped, ruined, bankrupted and criminalized".   Either 
you're a political ally, or you're toast.

This administration has removed all semblances of public service and has 
officially made it federal policy to conduct political wars upon the people, 
businesses, enterprises, and even the states, if there is any political 
benefit to doing so.   It is federal malevolence at the highest level ever 
seen before in this country.   And it's getting worse by massive leaps and 
bounds.   Even appointees to the FCC have made this clear, in demonstrating 
they believe in the direction and control of media and industry for the 
benefit of the political class.

I argued years ago that surrendering our sovereignty to the feds was a 
recipe for industry disaster.   So far, I've been called stupid, extreme, 
radical, idiotic, mindless, and a kook for thinking so.   Trying being a 
health insurance company, doctor, investor, banker or any one of a number of 
recently demonized groups.The White House has decided it can control 
your prices, wages, services, products, and policies, if ANY public money 
passes to you or even if you just happen to be in an industry that gets 
political attention.   Even if it just means a bailed out company did 
business with you.   Or, your service is considered "important" or 
"essential".

They haven't gotten around to us yet, but we're in the crosshairs.   After 
all, we're in business to make a profit,  and anyone making a profit needs 
to be slapped down and destroyed.We should have stood for our 
independence, instead of lusting after public money, but no, principle is 
foolish, and money is all that matters, I was told.   Well, you got what you 
wanted.   And I'm still around to say "I told you so".   The pursuit of 
favors, public money, loans, grants...  That was just too enticing, wasn't 
it?   The country's going to hell in a handbasket financially, because 
everyone's holding their hand out waiting for someone else's money to flow 
their way, courtesy of politicians.And lots of the leadership of WISPA 
was arguing and holding out the promise of "getting someone else's money" 
for the industry.

Well, ALL of you, and ALL of the same greedy mentalities all through our 
industry and nation have set the situation up that it's all come home to 
roost, and the taxpayers are... well, paying for it.   Unemployment, ruined 
retirements, bankruptcy, and so on.

You should have stood on principle, not on greed.Best never invite me to 
an "industry gathering" or I'll tell you what I really think.   It would not 
be pretty.

I haven't read this list in months, been busy.   But nothing has changed. 
We've still got WISPA leadership promoting the lusting after public money. 
Damn you for your immorality.The consequences are all around us, the 
people have suffered greatly because of that kind of thinking...  And you're 
STILL DOING IT???

I don't want to hear "they're going to give it anyway, might as well get 
your share".   Hell no.We should put our country first, and the lust for 
easy "someone else's money" given the boot.But we've been sold out to 
the FCC by former leadership urging the FCC to regulate and mandate stuff on 
our part for them.   In return, of course, for vague hints something might 
"come our way".

Shame on every one of you who took, is trying to get, or even thinking of 
trying to get your hands on someone else's money.It wasn't just a 
political matter after all.  It was moral, too.   And look at the 
consequences it wrought.

Ok, enough. I'm angry now and starting to get worked up.





--
From: "Scottie Arnett" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:55 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] USF changes?

> And they forgot all about the other ISP's out there. They are leaving it 
> up to the telcos to supply the demand! Do they(The FCC) not understand 
> that other companies besides the telcos and cable companies offer Internet 

Re: [WISPA] customers dogs chewing on CAT5

[MDK]

1/2 inch plastic conduit works, and it's about 95 cents per 10 foot stick at 
Home Depot...

The price is good, how's that compare to drip tube?



--
From: "Matt Jenkins" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:06 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] customers dogs chewing on CAT5

> 3/8 Inch drip tube. Its smaller than conduit and its flexible.
>
> - Matt
>
> Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
>> I've had several customers that have had their dog chew on the Cat5 going
>> from the house to the TV tower and some of them multiple times.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone have ideas on how to keep the dog from chewing on the wire? I've 
>> got
>> one customer on their 3rd Cat5 run and going out right now to replace a
>> different customer that will be his 3rd one as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm about ready to shoot the stinking dog..
>>
>>
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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>>
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>
>
>
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[WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube... increased data delivery is here to stay.

[MDK]

I've been watching the thread about it with great interest.Partly 
because I was wondering if anyone was going to try "my solution", which is, 
to attempt to be able to deliver the bandwidth to the people who want to use 
these, and have them work fine.

Please understand, I'm not talking about a prioritizing scheme, which puts 
video ahead of surfing, etc.

I'm just talking about how we're going to keep up with the future...   In 
2004 when I started, we used between 1 and and 1.5 gigs of data per customer 
per month. The last time I measured it, which was a year ago,  we were 
up to more than 7.

We're thinking about how we're going to meet the demands of the near 
future... not managing a shortage of bandwidth delivery.  I'm nowhere near 
as leveraged as some of my competitors in terms of oversubscription, but 
that's not an excuse.

I'm thinking of planning on a future delivery of 4 to 6 meg per customer, 
oversubscribed to around 4 to 6 to one.

What is everyone else planning?

 




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Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube... increased data delivery is here to stay.

[MDK]

I guess you could call me "lucky" in that I have access to darn good rates.

I'm currently at $60/mbit and working to see if my provider will give me a 
break for doubling my commit.

Currently, my commit is 10m and I'm paying overages each month, but they're 
still reasonably small.This is on the "95th percentile" scheme of 
measuring bandwidth use.   I'm burstable to the limit of the 100M ethernet 
feed, and could get gig E if I needed it.

My backhaul tops out at about 2600KB, so we're splitting our load between 
two, and raising the main one to around 60Mbit backhaul.Hoping to have 
an aggregate of about 110 mbit from the provider to me.

We're also looking at deploying either Ubnt's M based equipment or someone 
else's if anyone ever comes up with something workable and affordable, as an 
addition to our already deployed network.

We initially had a bandwidth cost of of about $6/customer, it reached a low 
of about $3.3 a year or two after starting, and now it's back up to a little 
less than $5 / customer. We've raised our rates 50 cents, cut our 
administrative costs by $.70 for most customers by changing to EFT payments, 
and now we're trying to figure out how to keep up with our expected 3X use 
of data transfer and still keep our bandwidth costs within our planned 
maximum of $8 over the next 3 years.

We have some strategies to help with this, one of them is to offer a premium 
service to residences that has higher than cable or dsl speeds for around 
$225-250 / mo, and it appears we can deliver this to over 90% of our service 
area at a moderate investment.

Also, we're liscensing up big time for deploying 3.65 in a PtMP scheme over 
a sizeable area, as well.

About a year ago, my biggest competitor began deploying stuff that looks 
identical to mine, though I know that it's Mikrotik inside instead of 
Star-OS.   It's time to make that big step up and be ahead again for a 
while.



--
From: "Butch Evans" 
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:44 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube... increased data 
delivery is here to stay.

>> At 03:09 PM 11/12/2009, you wrote:
>> >I've been watching the thread about it with great interest.Partly
>> >because I was wondering if anyone was going to try "my solution", which 
>> >is,
>> >to attempt to be able to deliver the bandwidth to the people who want to 
>> >use
>> >these, and have them work fine.
>> >
>> >Please understand, I'm not talking about a prioritizing scheme, which 
>> >puts
>> >video ahead of surfing, etc.
>
> This is a good point.  The fact is, that a GOOD bandwidth manager will
> allow traffic to flow as fast as possible.  One thing to bear in mind,
> with regard to my QOS system, is that I don't speed limit ANYTHING.  I
> simply prioritize traffic so that the time sensitive stuff gets out
> first.  There is no reason to limit even P2P if there is available
> bandwidth.  Every class that I give that covers QOS, I restate this one
> maxim:  "QOS is not simply LIMITING bandwidth.  Rather, QOS is about
> MANAGING the available bandwidth resources."  There is an important
> distinction there that your comments don't take into account.
>
>> >We're thinking about how we're going to meet the demands of the near
>> >future... not managing a shortage of bandwidth delivery.
>
> Even with sufficient bandwidth available, there are links and network
> infrastructure where a good QOS mechanism will benefit the network.
>
>> >I'm thinking of planning on a future delivery of 4 to 6 meg per 
>> >customer,
>> >oversubscribed to around 4 to 6 to one.
>
> For many, 4:1 would mean out of business.  Even at 10:1, many would not
> survive.  There are places in this country where bandwidth is still
> quite expensive ($200/Meg would sound GOOD to some people).  Even at
> that price, a 4:1 ratio is $50/customer before you add in ANY costs.
> Even 10:1 is to high.  It would be NICE if the price for wholesale BW
> came down, but too many folks do not have the benefit of reasonable
> bandwidth.
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * Wired or Wireless Networks   *
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/   * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!  *
> 
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube... increaseddata delivery is here to stay.

[MDK]

Well, our rates are 38.50 for 2M/2M  and 25.50 for 300kb/300kb   I think I 
have around 10 of the 300kb customers.

We had considered dropping rates, but the analysis last year that showed the 
data use growth convinced us to do otherwise.

I'm glad to hear the the M stuff works well.Our first deployment is 
going to be something other than backhaul in a critical spot.   We made that 
mistake with UBNT's 3.65 and it turned out to be a disaster that ended up 
costing us something like nearly $4k while we kept our old provider and the 
new provider online and waited for replacement hardware and the chance to 
get to our colo site...We then stuck the 3.65 gear into redundant 
locations, and sure enough, all the original shipment has failed.

The replacements have been fine, however.

I don't think there'll be many takers for a 10m pipe at 175 and a 20m pipe 
at 230.However, if we do sell a handful, it will fully fund our much 
larger commit.I'm pondering the notion of putting a gigabye limit on 
those accounts, however.

We're still a cash based company, as in nothing is financed...   Our current 
offer is that standard broadband installs for $165, which includes 3 months 
of service.   That works out to about a $50 install fee.   But we get the 
majority of our costs to install back immediately.Sometimes it's a 
little over, depending on what equipment we have to use.

In some places, we do 900 gear, and that's still a $300+ install cost.   Or, 
we eat most of it if the customer will pay a year in advance.   900 is 
reserved to the "absolutely nothing else will work" locations, as it's such 
a finicky and persnickety beast.Channel changes due to weather or 
temperature or humidity changes, and all sorts of other grief, as well, 
including a lot of SR9 failures.   (use xr9's now)

We've been doing this since we started and this is actually the first time 
we've been able to actually catch up, in terms of cash flow.   Probably 
because it's been a slow year.Spring was good, which has never happened 
before, but fall was slow, which again, has bucked the trend.

We don't require a long term commitment, we provide low cost pc help and we 
do "to you" customer service calls to help with routers and stuff gone wrong 
with your pc.Every customer is entitled to at least one call a year at 
no charge.

Yeah, it's an old fashioned way to do business, but I have no idea what 
"churn" is, either.

I think they mean the guys that died or moved away.   I've lost less than 15 
customers over the 5.5 years I've been in business, the majority of which 
died or moved.

--
From: "jp" 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:32 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube... 
increaseddatadeliveryis here to stay.

> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 09:17:58AM -0800, MDK wrote:
>> I guess you could call me "lucky" in that I have access to darn good 
>> rates.
>>
>> I'm currently at $60/mbit and working to see if my provider will give me 
>> a
>> break for doubling my commit.
>
> Continued business with you should be important. If you offer to pay the
> same and get more bandwidth, that should work for everyone.
>
>> We're also looking at deploying either Ubnt's M based equipment or 
>> someone
>> else's if anyone ever comes up with something workable and affordable, as 
>> an
>> addition to our already deployed network.
>
> I've found the rocket5m to work pretty good with 2' dishes for ptp
> links. The speed is real and it runs well. It does needs a minor work
> around in that the automatic distance setting does not work, you need to
> manually set it, plus 15%. I can get 100mbit no problem with 20mhz
> spectrum.
>
> This is serious praise, as I generally prefer midrange or higher end
> stuff like Alvarion, Trango, and I generally have serious reservations
> about the cheap stuff for honest calculated reasons.
>
>> We initially had a bandwidth cost of of about $6/customer, it reached a 
>> low
>> of about $3.3 a year or two after starting, and now it's back up to a 
>> little
>> less than $5 / customer. We've raised our rates 50 cents, cut our
>> administrative costs by $.70 for most customers by changing to EFT 
>> payments,
>> and now we're trying to figure out how to keep up with our expected 3X 
>> use
>> of data transfer and still keep our bandwidth costs within our planned
>> maximum of $8 over the next 3 years.
>
> I've never raised rates in 15 years and use that as a differentiator
> between us and the standard practices of the

Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube...increaseddata delivery is here to stay.

[MDK]

UBNT has fully licensed and approved 3.65 gear.



--
From: "Ralph" 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 12:34 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and 
youtube...increaseddatadeliveryis here to stay.

> What ubnt 3.65 are you saying you tried? Afaik ubnt has 3 gig but not
> on US channels. What country are you in?
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 1:15 PM, "MDK"  wrote:
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube...increaseddata delivery is here to stay.

[MDK]

LOL!Never tell that to the guy with the stuff you say doesn't exist and 
doing the things you say can't be done, 'cause he's already got it and using 
it.



--
From: "Michael Baird" 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:24 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and 
youtube...increaseddatadeliveryis here to stay.

> Ubiquity does not have any licensed 3.65 gear for the US, they have
> XR3/Nano3's but they are for overseas customers.
>
> They have announced they will be coming out with 3.65/900 mhz airmax
> gear 2nd Quarterish next year.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>> UBNT has fully licensed and approved 3.65 gear.
 




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Re: [WISPA] USF changes?

[MDK]

I cannot believe this.

WISPA has sold it's soul to the devil, and is now preaching the message.

There is NO SUCH DAMN THING AS FREE MONEY.

Taking it WILL result in the feds coming and directing your business, 
controlling every aspect.Have you seen the news about TARP and other 
bailouts? This government is coming for you.   It will set your rates, 
control your pay, and mandate your operations.   Even if no such statutory 
obligations exist,  we are no longer governed by laws or even any semblance 
of legislation - merely by whatever destroying you can yield in political 
benefits to the politicians.   And if puts you under, they will dance on 
your grave, while they sing songs about the death of the greedy.

It is IMMORAL to take this money, when we as a nation are so broke.

Let someone else go to hell.  I am neither fighting for it, nor would I 
accept it if you came to my door begging me to take a "free" check.   I 
would rather go hungry and cold.   Someday I will meet my Maker and I intend 
to say "I did the right thing even when it was unpopular".

Stand on principle, people, or be the same as the whores who have caused the 
credit crisis, currency crisis, insurance crisis, and the list goes on and 
on.If WISPA cannot stand on that principle, it has exactly the same 
qualities and virtues as the damnable souls who have created this economic 
mess -  that is, NONE WHATSOEVER.   Someone, SOMEWHERE has to.   The fact 
that millions of us in this country did NOT is why we're in this economic 
mess.This has to change, and it has to change WITH EVERY INDIVIDUAL OUT 
THERE.   Be the solution, or be the cause.   There's no other choices.

Marlon, you and I have now parted ways.   I absolutely cannot believe you 
would be such a whore for money, as to do immoral crap like this.

As for anyone else with the same opinion?Take it the same.

I don't give a flying damn if my competitors get millions.I don't even 
care if it results in my business failure.   My conscience matters, that 
does not, in the overall scheme of life.Where are you going to stand? 
I intend to earn any dime I ever have, not by taking it in a most immoral 
display of theft.



--
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:15 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] USF changes?

> Mark, we've been through all of this before.
>
> You are RIGHT in that it's non of the government's business.  This is also
> NOT their problem.
>
> But the fact that you and I (and probably most people here) think that
> doesn't change the facts.  Just because you wish your tire isn't flat or
> think that there's absolutely no reason for it to be flat doesn't make it
> unflat when it is in fact, flat.
>
> We warned you (and others) what, at least 5 or 6 years ago now?  File the
> 477 or someday the lack of data on what we're doing will come back to bite
> us in the rear ends.  Now we have the ARRA with it's billions of dollars
> floating around out there and it looks like much of that money will not 
> only
> end up in the hands of our competitors, those competitors will be quasi
> government or flat out government entities!  And WE'RE helping them by
> sticking our heads in the sand when they ask us for data that anyone with
> any desire at all can figure out anyway.
>
> Wake up already.  We are loosing this fight.  It's time for a new 
> strategy.
> marlon
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "MDK" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] USF changes?
>
>
>> Yes, they do understand it.   You're not understanding the point.The
>> telcos have big bucks to lobby with, and benefit the regulators.   We do
>> not.Thus, we will NEVER be on their "list".We cannot get onto the
>> top of the rolodex until we have millions with which to lobby, and can
>> legally bribe a bunch of government agencies.
>>
>> There is no benefit to offering them data, free labor, etc.The
>> mandates
>> will get larger, deeper, more and more costly, and the benefits promised
>> by
>> certain individuals will never EVER happen.   And, should it ever reach
>> the
>> point we actually pinch the telcos or cablecos enough for them to get
>> concerned, they will call in the favors and have us obliterated. 
>> Welcome
>> to the new generation of thug politics in DC.   Just look what's 
>> happening
>> to broadcast industry, the insurance industry, etc."You exist to
>> benefit
>> our political aspirations.  The moment you fail in that reg

Re: [WISPA] Reset StarOS

[MDK]

Send me a list and prices.   I am buying star-os stuff.

purchasing AT neofast.net

--
From: "Steve Barnes" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Reset StarOS

> I am changing all my network out to Mikrotik and have 8 various StarOS 
> War1, War2, and Wrap boards that I plan to sell on Ebay.  I never really 
> learned how to mess with these so is there a easy way to reset all these 
> back to factory or do I have to do it one at a time with putty?  And what 
> is the best way to clear the compact flash on the Wrap boards.  With 
> StarOS is there a easy way to do a lookup for them like you do on the 
> Mikrotik's with the ... button on Winbox?
>
>
> Steve Barnes
> RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service
>
>
> 
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> 
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[WISPA] X86 low power board w/3 or more ethernet

[MDK]

Looking for an x86 compatible board of some kind with at least 3 or (better) 
more ethernet ports.

Anyone have suggestions?

Needs to have enough cpu power to route full 100m ethernet speed.gigE 
would be even better.

I've not found such a beast... but I need one where there's no ac power, no 
climate control...

 




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Re: [WISPA] X86 low power board w/3 or more ethernet

[MDK]

Low power is 10 watts or less.

This site runs on solar/wind power.The amount of power available is very 
limited.

I've been looking at multiport ethernet card/mini-itx board combinations to 
do the trick...

Awkward physically, and a little on the large size for power consumption, 
though the ALIX mini-itx is quite attractive for that.



--
From: "Dennis Burgess" 
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:34 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] X86 low power board w/3 or more ethernet

> What do you consider low power?  THe PowerRouter 732 will operate at
> GigE speeds, 7 GigE Interfaces and consumes around 80 watts.
>
> ---
> Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> WISPA Board Member - wispa.org
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> WISPA Vendor Member
> Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training
> Author of "Learn RouterOS"
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] X86 low power board w/3 or more ethernet
>
>
> Looking for an x86 compatible board of some kind with at least 3 or
> (better)
> more ethernet ports.
>
> Anyone have suggestions?
>
> Needs to have enough cpu power to route full 100m ethernet speed.
> gigE
> would be even better.
>
> I've not found such a beast... but I need one where there's no ac power,
> no
> climate control...
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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>
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Re: [WISPA] 24dB 2.4 gig grid antennas

[MDK]

I believe Advanced Antenna bought out the old Equinox company, and now it 
appears they, too, have gone belly-up - or at least the old website is now 
gone (www.advancedantennainc.com).Perhaps now there's yet another 
operating under the old brand, or maybe they changed websites and I can't 
find the new one.

Over the years I've used a number of their antennas, and they were by far, 
the most troublesome I have used.   They were even heavier than the 
pacwireless, and used the same flimsy bracket, with the dipole attached to 
the BRACKET not the dish, and the L shaped bracket would bend in the wind, 
leaving the dish and dipole out of alignment.We actually engineered a 
cable retention system we used on both theirs and PW's large grids to keep 
them pointed properly in high winds.

They finally upgraded to a much heavier gauge bracket, but the design flaw 
remained. Then sometime later, I bought a boxful of 2.4 samples (from 
low to high gain), and found they simply weren't worth messing with.   2 out 
of 5 had bad dipoles - one failed on install, the other failed a few months 
later.The price was very cheap, however.   And, they did appear to have 
roughly the gain they claimed.

I took the dipoles apart and found that the construction was beyond bad. 
They were just crude and poorly constructed and poorly designed in every way 
eXCEPT the dipole printed on a PCB, which was very nicely done.
THAT was my experience with the Equinox branded antennas.

Later, I got quotes from Advanced Antenna, and bought bunch of the j-arm 
universal mounts, which were great.Upon calling back, I got my call 
answered by the same guy who used to be at Equinox...   They raised the 
prices of their antennas above pacwireless, so I never bought a thing from 
them except j arm mounts.

Some of the equinox guys left and started their own company,  and I recall 
they had a new name and new location, but I never bought anything from them, 
since my biggest use of antennas is 5 ghz and theirs cost more than 
Pacwireless.   I no longer recall the name they operated under.

Lately, I've used a bunch of Arcwireless panels with the enclosure on the 
back, and the performance from those has been better than any grids I've 
used.Not to mention that compex finally got their certifications done a 
few years ago and that was the antenna of choice :)

 The 23 db panel gave us better RSSI than a 25 db PW grid for a given 
distance.The 2.4 panel performance is also very good.

We lately used mostly ubiquiti bullets (not hp) for cpe and have gone back 
to the PW grids, because the standalone panel antenna mounts for Arcwireless 
totally suck.They're weak,  clumsy, and even look strange.

THere are two versions of PacWireless 5 ghz grids, there's a wideband and a 
narrow band.The wideband has an attached pigtail, and is cheaper by a 
few bucks.   We've had a number of them that didn't work right, found some 
had the beam off to the side,  or other quirks, like wildly varying RSSI for 
small frequency changes.The narrow band ones have no pigtail, but have 
worked better and more reliably, but we find them VERY hard to waterproof. 
We've found that some of the pigtails built onto the grids have leaked water 
right past the shrink wrap.   A couple of temporary installs we used just 
filled themselves with water, which apparently had to come through the 
sheath of the cable, or through the shrink wrap itself.   Still, we keep 
using them by default, because we haven't found any good alternative.   If 
one of them behaves funny, we just toss it in the van and use it in some 
location that's real short distance and the gain or odd beam isn't an issue. 
Still, the water issue was a problem that I am extremely concerned about, 
though the failure rate has been small and only affects a few recent 
installs.

I got some ignition spec dielectric grease and filled the connector with it 
and it's been fine ever since...  the temp install has now made it through 
several more driving rainstorms with no issue, when it failed on the FIRST 
big rain this summer.







--
From: "3-dB Networks" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:16 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 24dB 2.4 gig grid antennas

> Try Advanced Antenna... I've sold a few and have not heard any 
> complaints...
> have not seen them myself though.
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:14 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] 24dB 2.4 gig grid antennas
>
> Hi All,
>
> What are you using for grid antennas?  I really don't like the Pac 
> Wireless
> ones.  But I need something new because the Andrew (can't remember the new
> name) ones are being discontinued.
>
> Suggestions?
> marlon
>
>
>
>

[WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors

[MDK]

I've run out of these, and none of the vendors I use commonly carry them. 
Anyone out west have these?

Yeah, I know, it costs more to buy two of these than a whole pre-built 10 
foot cable, but every danged pre-built I buy has water issues.

We have never had to seal any of the cables we built ourselves, and none of 
them have ever leaked (except when someone who'll forever remain nameless 
forgot to tighten the cable...), but I have no luck at all with the pre-made 
I've bought from multiple places.   Our temporary site needed to go up in a 
real hurry, so I bought a whole pile of parts and cables, and most of them 
have had issues.

 




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[WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior

[MDK]

I have a backhaul feed that completely flips out when it rains.But, only 
when it rains heavy, and only for a short time.

Yes, we took the cables apart, and no, there wasn't water in the cable 
connections. But, water gets into stuff slowly, and ... err... stays 
there.

This, will be perfectly fine and when a sudden rainstorm hit will go from 
working as it should to fully dead in minutes.   And, when the rain SLOWS 
(not stops), it comes back up again and will restore to full RSSI faster 
than I can get to it.   Pacwireless grids at both ends, vertical 
polarization, and no noise that I know of, other than self inflicted, if I 
set stuff wrong.  This is a shared backhaul...  One end is 13 miles, one 
is 3 miles.   The near one is off the edge of the beam a bit, mostly due to 
elevation settings, and being off the center of the beam by 5 or 6 degrees 
horizontally.The AP end sees the clients go weak and vanish.Both of 
the client ends see the same thing.If it stops raining, or slows to a 
spit, by 20 minutes we have good RSSI and the quality starts back up.

The quality falls first, then RSSI when the link starts to fail.

I'm baffled by this behavior, and have replaced the radio, pigtail, pulled 
the cable ends off to inspect for water, and didn't find any.   But, where I 
HAVE had water leaks, the water gets in, the link dies, and stays dead. 
This changes quickly, having a few minutes lag behind a storm.   For 
instance, a sudden 20 minute downpour will see the link die, but by the time 
it stops raining and I can drive the 10 minutes to the site, it's up and 
RSSI is fine.

I have 2 other nearly parallel links at the same site, none of them seem to 
have this behavior.  I do notice smallish losses in RSSI during hard rains, 
but nothing like going from high 60's to "can't detect" in minutes.

 




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Re: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior

[MDK]

Hmmm...bad feedhorn...  hmmm...

Stirs thinking.

Good idea.

I have replacements, and it's not too terribly hard to  replace.

--
From: 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:18 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior

> Sounds like one of the feed horns are bad or you have freznel blockage 
> that affects the link when drenched.
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "MDK" 
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:08:07
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior
>
>
> I have a backhaul feed that completely flips out when it rains.But, 
> only
> when it rains heavy, and only for a short time.
>
> Yes, we took the cables apart, and no, there wasn't water in the cable
> connections. But, water gets into stuff slowly, and ... err... stays
> there.
>
> This, will be perfectly fine and when a sudden rainstorm hit will go from
> working as it should to fully dead in minutes.   And, when the rain SLOWS
> (not stops), it comes back up again and will restore to full RSSI faster
> than I can get to it.   Pacwireless grids at both ends, vertical
> polarization, and no noise that I know of, other than self inflicted, if I
> set stuff wrong.  This is a shared backhaul...  One end is 13 miles, 
> one
> is 3 miles.   The near one is off the edge of the beam a bit, mostly due 
> to
> elevation settings, and being off the center of the beam by 5 or 6 degrees
> horizontally.The AP end sees the clients go weak and vanish.Both 
> of
> the client ends see the same thing.If it stops raining, or slows to a
> spit, by 20 minutes we have good RSSI and the quality starts back up.
>
> The quality falls first, then RSSI when the link starts to fail.
>
> I'm baffled by this behavior, and have replaced the radio, pigtail, pulled
> the cable ends off to inspect for water, and didn't find any.   But, where 
> I
> HAVE had water leaks, the water gets in, the link dies, and stays dead.
> This changes quickly, having a few minutes lag behind a storm.   For
> instance, a sudden 20 minute downpour will see the link die, but by the 
> time
> it stops raining and I can drive the 10 minutes to the site, it's up and
> RSSI is fine.
>
> I have 2 other nearly parallel links at the same site, none of them seem 
> to
> have this behavior.  I do notice smallish losses in RSSI during hard 
> rains,
> but nothing like going from high 60's to "can't detect" in minutes.
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior

[MDK]

All points are 25db pacwireless grids.



--
From: "Chuck Profito" 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:04 PM
To: ; "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior

> How about putting a dish on the ap side, maybe with a dome,  would there 
> be
> enough lobe for the short hop?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of e...@wisp-router.com
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:18 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior
>
> Sounds like one of the feed horns are bad or you have freznel blockage 
> that
> affects the link when drenched.
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "MDK" 
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:08:07
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior
>
>
> I have a backhaul feed that completely flips out when it rains.But, 
> only
>
> when it rains heavy, and only for a short time.
>
> Yes, we took the cables apart, and no, there wasn't water in the cable
> connections. But, water gets into stuff slowly, and ... err... stays
> there.
>
> This, will be perfectly fine and when a sudden rainstorm hit will go from
> working as it should to fully dead in minutes.   And, when the rain SLOWS
> (not stops), it comes back up again and will restore to full RSSI faster
> than I can get to it.   Pacwireless grids at both ends, vertical
> polarization, and no noise that I know of, other than self inflicted, if I
> set stuff wrong.  This is a shared backhaul...  One end is 13 miles, 
> one
>
> is 3 miles.   The near one is off the edge of the beam a bit, mostly due 
> to
> elevation settings, and being off the center of the beam by 5 or 6 degrees
> horizontally.The AP end sees the clients go weak and vanish.Both 
> of
> the client ends see the same thing.If it stops raining, or slows to a
> spit, by 20 minutes we have good RSSI and the quality starts back up.
>
> The quality falls first, then RSSI when the link starts to fail.
>
> I'm baffled by this behavior, and have replaced the radio, pigtail, pulled
> the cable ends off to inspect for water, and didn't find any.   But, where 
> I
>
> HAVE had water leaks, the water gets in, the link dies, and stays dead.
> This changes quickly, having a few minutes lag behind a storm.   For
> instance, a sudden 20 minute downpour will see the link die, but by the 
> time
>
> it stops raining and I can drive the 10 minutes to the site, it's up and
> RSSI is fine.
>
> I have 2 other nearly parallel links at the same site, none of them seem 
> to
> have this behavior.  I do notice smallish losses in RSSI during hard 
> rains,
> but nothing like going from high 60's to "can't detect" in minutes.
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors

[MDK]

I've observed that myself.

However, nothing works when the connectors themselves fail.

So far, I've had multiple "cheap" connectors break, or pre-built cables come 
apart, where there was apparently little to no physical strength to the end. 
Just a short length of cable hanging off the antenna (about 2 feet) pulled 
it apart, and it lasted all of 5 months from install.The 400 size cable 
was supported by cable clamps which were screwed in place, but the little 
tail that hung out to the antenna, the approximate amount needed to have a 
nice bend between the pole and the antenna (mounted on a universal mount) 
slowly pulled itself apart.

So far, I've had one Times EZ physically fail (broken in two) from the 
persistent wiggle of the all the wind we've had - but it's near 6 years old. 
The box is attached to the pole, and there's about 24 inches between the 
bulkhead connector and the first cable clamp, where we had a nice easy bend 
and a "drip loop".

Other wind damage has been a hand tightened (inside a building) N connector 
backing clear out, screws attaching a board back out and allowing the spacer 
to fall out and the board moved back and shorted against the steel box,  a 
seemingly failed mini-itx board that kept rebooting or shutting off from the 
shaking of the box attached to a telephone pole.Assorted connectors and 
wire snapping off due to persistent slight wiggles when the building shakes. 
I had a CF card come off a WRAP board, apparently due to the persistent 
shaking of the wind - seen that 3 or 4 times, actually.   In one case, it 
broke the board from the harsh pounding it got from being up on a guyed pole 
(didn't come down).

We've seen so much wind this year, it's near insane.

As I write this,  there's apparently a very widespread power outage,  much 
of a nearby town and the area I serve in the mountains has scattered outages 
too.It's scattered across 3 different power companies and most of the 
town has "closed" on the doors and nobody there.

We're up, though I had to restore power after my backup ran dead this 
morning.

I'm SO tired of this wind...



--
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:50 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors

> Heat shrink doesn't work in the cold.  It will get hard (the glue) and as
> things move in the wind etc. it'll allow water in.  Been there done that.
>
> NOTHING works better than self vulcanizing rubber tape.
>
> If what you use is easy to get off it's not a good tight seal.
>
> sigh
>
> It sure can't be that hard to build a connector that seals without the 
> tape!
> sigh
> marlon
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors
>
>
>> Yes -  hate the mess but seals the best!
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 6:43 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>> Coax-seal
>>> On Nov 19, 2009, at 6:42 PM, AJ wrote:
>>>
>>> > CANUSA adhesive shrink tubing is your friend :)
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:41 PM,  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> No 400 connector from any of the manufacturers is weatherproof by
>>> itself.
>>> >> You need to weatherproof all of your connections. If they are not
>>> getting
>>> >> wet you are lucky. Plain and simple.
>>> >>
>>> >> Bob
>>> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>> >>
>>> >> -Original Message-
>>> >> From: "MDK" 
>>> >> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:20:52
>>> >> To: WISPA General List
>>> >> Subject: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I've run out of these, and none of the vendors I use commonly carry
>>> them.
>>> >> Anyone out west have these?
>>> >>
>>> >> Yeah, I know, it costs more to buy two of these than a whole 
>>> >> pre-built
>>> 10
>>> >> foot cable, but every danged pre-built I buy has water issues.
>>> >>
>>> >> We have never had to seal any of the cables we built ourselves, and
>>> >> none
>>> of
>>> >> them have ever leaked (except when someone who'll forever remain
>>> nameless
>>> >> forgot to tighten the cable...), but

Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors

[MDK]

Errr, no.I bought the cables and the ends my normal vendors had in 
stock.

I'll be happy to pay 10 bux for good ones (ends), as comparison to 3 or 4 
for the "others".I've seen them REAL cheap elsewhere, but wouldn't touch 
them with a ten foot pole.




--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:14 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors

> Okay, so did you fall in the same trap as I did?  Order some REALLY cheap
> pigtails and connectors from unknown China outfit and hoped for the best?
>
> I got lots of pigtails with only one end, man!
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 2:36 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors
>
>
> I've observed that myself.
>
> However, nothing works when the connectors themselves fail.
>
> So far, I've had multiple "cheap" connectors break, or pre-built cables 
> come
>
> apart, where there was apparently little to no physical strength to the 
> end.
>
> Just a short length of cable hanging off the antenna (about 2 feet) pulled
> it apart, and it lasted all of 5 months from install.The 400 size 
> cable
> was supported by cable clamps which were screwed in place, but the little
> tail that hung out to the antenna, the approximate amount needed to have a
> nice bend between the pole and the antenna (mounted on a universal mount)
> slowly pulled itself apart.
>
> So far, I've had one Times EZ physically fail (broken in two) from the
> persistent wiggle of the all the wind we've had - but it's near 6 years 
> old.
>
> The box is attached to the pole, and there's about 24 inches between the
> bulkhead connector and the first cable clamp, where we had a nice easy 
> bend
> and a "drip loop".
>
> Other wind damage has been a hand tightened (inside a building) N 
> connector
> backing clear out, screws attaching a board back out and allowing the 
> spacer
>
> to fall out and the board moved back and shorted against the steel box,  a
> seemingly failed mini-itx board that kept rebooting or shutting off from 
> the
>
> shaking of the box attached to a telephone pole.Assorted connectors 
> and
> wire snapping off due to persistent slight wiggles when the building 
> shakes.
>
> I had a CF card come off a WRAP board, apparently due to the persistent
> shaking of the wind - seen that 3 or 4 times, actually.   In one case, it
> broke the board from the harsh pounding it got from being up on a guyed 
> pole
>
> (didn't come down).
>
> We've seen so much wind this year, it's near insane.
>
> As I write this,  there's apparently a very widespread power outage,  much
> of a nearby town and the area I serve in the mountains has scattered 
> outages
>
> too.It's scattered across 3 different power companies and most of the
> town has "closed" on the doors and nobody there.
>
> We're up, though I had to restore power after my backup ran dead this
> morning.
>
> I'm SO tired of this wind...
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:50 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors
>
>> Heat shrink doesn't work in the cold.  It will get hard (the glue) and as
>> things move in the wind etc. it'll allow water in.  Been there done that.
>>
>> NOTHING works better than self vulcanizing rubber tape.
>>
>> If what you use is easy to get off it's not a good tight seal.
>>
>> sigh
>>
>> It sure can't be that hard to build a connector that seals without the
>> tape!
>> sigh
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "RickG" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Times Microwave EZ connectors
>>
>>
>>> Yes -  hate the mess but seals the best!
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 6:43 PM,  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Coax-seal
>>>> On Nov 19, 2009, at 6:42 PM, AJ wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > CANUSA adhesive shrink tubing is your friend :)
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:41 PM,  wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> No 400 connector from any o

[WISPA] Anyone out there stock AR5416 based mini-pci cards?

[MDK]

I'm going to do some experimenting with some MIMO and TDMA based stuff. I 
need some Atheros based cards to do this - I'd like at least 3 or 4.I need 
2x2 MIMO, specifically.I need to know the precise chipset on the card 
before I buy.  

Don't call me, email me at purchasing at neofast (dot) net 

If this works out, I have a 160Mbit solution for backhauls, and distance 
doesn't matter much other than RSSI 

If that works, then I'm working on P2P.  




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Re: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic

[MDK]

Arc wireless makes 20 and 23 db panels and pacwireless makes a 2 and 3 foot 
solid dish w/dual polarity.

Does ANYONE make dual pol sectors for 5 ghz besides UBNT, whose antennas are 
made of 99 44/100 % pure unobtanium?



--
From: "Phil Curnutt" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:12 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic

> Anybody have a suggestion for a 5.8 Ghz Grid Parabolic, Dual Polarity, 24 
> to
> 30 dB?
>
> Phil
>
>
> 
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic

[MDK]

the UBNT stuff is just not available, and doesn't appear to be until 
sometime perhaps in February.

the prices are very good, the gain and having nice sector widths is great, 
but, the distributors only have air to put in boxes to send to you


--
From: "Paul Hendry" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic

> Any reason the UBNT ones are not an option or is it just availability?
>
> -original message-
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic
> From: "Tom DeReggi" 
> Date: 25/11/2009 3:49 am
>
> yes they do for $1200. each :-(
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic
>
>
>> Radiowaves does I believe
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "MDK" 
>> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:26:58
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic
>>
>> Arc wireless makes 20 and 23 db panels and pacwireless makes a 2 and 3
>> foot
>> solid dish w/dual polarity.
>>
>> Does ANYONE make dual pol sectors for 5 ghz besides UBNT, whose antennas
>> are
>> made of 99 44/100 % pure unobtanium?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Phil Curnutt" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:12 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] Dual Pol Grid Parabolic
>>
>>> Anybody have a suggestion for a 5.8 Ghz Grid Parabolic, Dual Polarity, 
>>> 24
>>> to
>>> 30 dB?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> 
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>>
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] 802.3af POE to Passive POE

[MDK]

Ubuquiti has something like that.

--
From: "rwf" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:19 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: [WISPA] 802.3af POE to Passive POE

> Anyone know of a gizmo that will allow a 12-15VDC device that is normally
> powered by "passive poe" (Pins 4/5 and 7/8 like UBNT and many of the 
> others
> use) to be run from a port on a POE Ethernet switch (802.3af)
>
> Please tell me about it if you do.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] 802.3af POE to Passive POE

[MDK]

Pacwireless also has 802.af to 12 and 24 volt splitters.



--
From: "Tom Sharples" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:09 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 802.3af POE to Passive POE

> Scratch that - I forgot about the voltage conversion :-) the 25K resistor
> will tell the POE switch that your device is compatible, but won't lower 
> the
> voltage from 48 to 12.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tom Sharples" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 802.3af POE to Passive POE
>
>
>> If you tack-solder a 25k resistor between 4/5 and 7/8, your passive 
>> device
>> should work.
>>
>> Tom S.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "rwf" 
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:19 AM
>> Subject: [WISPA] 802.3af POE to Passive POE
>>
>>
>>> Anyone know of a gizmo that will allow a 12-15VDC device that is 
>>> normally
>>> powered by "passive poe" (Pins 4/5 and 7/8 like UBNT and many of the
>>> others
>>> use) to be run from a port on a POE Ethernet switch (802.3af)
>>>
>>> Please tell me about it if you do.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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[WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...

[MDK]

If you're a WISP and have interest in using commodity - off the shelf - 
Atheros based hardware to achieve higher than ethernet speeds over 
wireless... This is not a tweak of 802.11, it is a completely different 
mode...

There is currently an opportunity to do so, where most of the work has been 
done by various others in the FreeBSd community, but it is not integrated or 
packaged as a useful WISP product, and that's what needs to be done.

This does not need to result in an open source release, due to the relaxed 
BSD license. Or, it can.   But I'm looking for some people who have 
experience with freebsd, and have an interest in integrating what could be 
an awesome performing product using inexpensive commodity hardware.

email me at pda  at neofast dot net or mark at neofast dot net


--


 




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Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...

[MDK]

What would you call a totally proprietary,  TDMA based protocol, without ACK 
or CSMA?

Doesn't look a whole lot like 802.11x, but if you wish to say it is, then, 
for you it is :)



--
From: "Travis Johnson" 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:36 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product...

> If you are using Atheros based hardware, it's still 802.11... regardless
> of what software you put on top of it.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> MDK wrote:
>> If you're a WISP and have interest in using commodity - off the shelf -
>> Atheros based hardware to achieve higher than ethernet speeds over
>> wireless... This is not a tweak of 802.11, it is a completely 
>> different
>> mode...
>>
>> There is currently an opportunity to do so, where most of the work has 
>> been
>> done by various others in the FreeBSd community, but it is not integrated 
>> or
>> packaged as a useful WISP product, and that's what needs to be done.
>>
>> This does not need to result in an open source release, due to the 
>> relaxed
>> BSD license. Or, it can.   But I'm looking for some people who have
>> experience with freebsd, and have an interest in integrating what could 
>> be
>> an awesome performing product using inexpensive commodity hardware.
>>
>> email me at pda  at neofast dot net or mark at neofast dot net
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...

[MDK]

Given UBNT's  record of unavailability of product, and the inability to 
route via the interface, I vastly prefer this to UBNT's products.

Now, mind you, I'm not really putting them down, but this is an excellent 
infrastructure tool...Routing and other capabilities that vastly exceed 
some better known...



--
From: "Jayson Baker" 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:25 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product...

> Is there really much need for this, given the new AirMax product line?
> I'm just saying...
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:19 PM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> What would you call a totally proprietary,  TDMA based protocol, without
>> ACK
>> or CSMA?
>>
>> Doesn't look a whole lot like 802.11x, but if you wish to say it is, 
>> then,
>> for you it is :)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Travis Johnson" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:36 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related 
>> product...
>>
>> > If you are using Atheros based hardware, it's still 802.11... 
>> > regardless
>> > of what software you put on top of it.
>> >
>> > Travis
>> > Microserv
>> >
>> > MDK wrote:
>> >> If you're a WISP and have interest in using commodity - off the 
>> >> shelf -
>> >> Atheros based hardware to achieve higher than ethernet speeds over
>> >> wireless... This is not a tweak of 802.11, it is a completely
>> >> different
>> >> mode...
>> >>
>> >> There is currently an opportunity to do so, where most of the work has
>> >> been
>> >> done by various others in the FreeBSd community, but it is not
>> integrated
>> >> or
>> >> packaged as a useful WISP product, and that's what needs to be done.
>> >>
>> >> This does not need to result in an open source release, due to the
>> >> relaxed
>> >> BSD license. Or, it can.   But I'm looking for some people who 
>> >> have
>> >> experience with freebsd, and have an interest in integrating what 
>> >> could
>> >> be
>> >> an awesome performing product using inexpensive commodity hardware.
>> >>
>> >> email me at pda  at neofast dot net or mark at neofast dot net
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >>
>> 
>> >>
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>> >>
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>> >>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
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Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...

[MDK]

Actually, it's far better than cost-effective.

It's flexible, in both hardware and capabilities.Firewall, routing, 
routing daemons, and other things.

Frankly, I find the physical aspects of the Airmax stuff frustratingly 
limited.

I've grown fond of my immense ability to do creative stuff with Star-OS and 
a wide array of physical forms - especially since much of my network relies 
on low power consumption.

AirMax, deployed as an AP and clients...  seems ok.But that's only a 
small part of a good network.




--
From: "Jayson Baker" 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:51 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product...

> Availability is supposedly resolved.  We'll see.
>
> Routing... there is a full SDK.  You can do anything you want on those
> things.  The new ones have 400+MHz proc's, plenty to do some
> routing/firewalling.
>
> I just can't see a home grown solution like you're proposing being
> cost-effective.  We spent about 2 months on a project just like this, and
> started to have some pretty awesome performance and results.
>
> Then UBNT stuff came out.
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> Given UBNT's  record of unavailability of product, and the inability to
>> route via the interface, I vastly prefer this to UBNT's products.
>>
>> Now, mind you, I'm not really putting them down, but this is an excellent
>> infrastructure tool...Routing and other capabilities that vastly 
>> exceed
>> some better known...
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Jayson Baker" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:25 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related 
>> product...
>>
>> > Is there really much need for this, given the new AirMax product line?
>> > I'm just saying...
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:19 PM, MDK  wrote:
>> >
>> >> What would you call a totally proprietary,  TDMA based protocol, 
>> >> without
>> >> ACK
>> >> or CSMA?
>> >>
>> >> Doesn't look a whole lot like 802.11x, but if you wish to say it is,
>> >> then,
>> >> for you it is :)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------
>> >> From: "Travis Johnson" 
>> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:36 PM
>> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related
>> >> product...
>> >>
>> >> > If you are using Atheros based hardware, it's still 802.11...
>> >> > regardless
>> >> > of what software you put on top of it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Travis
>> >> > Microserv
>> >> >
>> >> > MDK wrote:
>> >> >> If you're a WISP and have interest in using commodity - off the
>> >> >> shelf -
>> >> >> Atheros based hardware to achieve higher than ethernet speeds over
>> >> >> wireless... This is not a tweak of 802.11, it is a completely
>> >> >> different
>> >> >> mode...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There is currently an opportunity to do so, where most of the work
>> has
>> >> >> been
>> >> >> done by various others in the FreeBSd community, but it is not
>> >> integrated
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> packaged as a useful WISP product, and that's what needs to be 
>> >> >> done.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This does not need to result in an open source release, due to the
>> >> >> relaxed
>> >> >> BSD license. Or, it can.   But I'm looking for some people who
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> experience with freebsd, and have an interest in integrating what
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> an awesome performing product using inexpensive commodity hardware.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> email me at pda  at neofast dot net or mark at neofast dot net
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >>
>

Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...

[MDK]

Well, for starters, it is NOT MikroTik.   That alone is worth more than a Visa 
commercial 





From: Travis Johnson 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:07 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product...


I think everything you have described can be done now with Mikrotik 
routing, firewall, routing daemons, scripting, etc. also being able to use $50 
boards up to $1,000 X86 based systems moving gigabits of traffic. All with 
standard parts.

So what would this FreeBSD system bring to the table that can't be done already?

Travis
Microserv

MDK wrote: 
Actually, it's far better than cost-effective.

It's flexible, in both hardware and capabilities.Firewall, routing, 
routing daemons, and other things.

Frankly, I find the physical aspects of the Airmax stuff frustratingly 
limited.

I've grown fond of my immense ability to do creative stuff with Star-OS and 
a wide array of physical forms - especially since much of my network relies 
on low power consumption.

AirMax, deployed as an AP and clients...  seems ok.But that's only a 
small part of a good network.




--
From: "Jayson Baker" 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:51 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product...

  Availability is supposedly resolved.  We'll see.

Routing... there is a full SDK.  You can do anything you want on those
things.  The new ones have 400+MHz proc's, plenty to do some
routing/firewalling.

I just can't see a home grown solution like you're proposing being
cost-effective.  We spent about 2 months on a project just like this, and
started to have some pretty awesome performance and results.

Then UBNT stuff came out.

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, MDK  wrote:

Given UBNT's  record of unavailability of product, and the inability to
route via the interface, I vastly prefer this to UBNT's products.

Now, mind you, I'm not really putting them down, but this is an excellent
infrastructure tool...Routing and other capabilities that vastly 
exceed
some better known...



--
From: "Jayson Baker" 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:25 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related 
product...

  Is there really much need for this, given the new AirMax product line?
I'm just saying...

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:19 PM, MDK  wrote:

What would you call a totally proprietary,  TDMA based protocol, 
without
ACK
or CSMA?

Doesn't look a whole lot like 802.11x, but if you wish to say it is,
then,
for you it is :)



--
From: "Travis Johnson" 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:36 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related
product...

  If you are using Atheros based hardware, it's still 802.11...
regardless
of what software you put on top of it.

Travis
Microserv

MDK wrote:
If you're a WISP and have interest in using commodity - off the
shelf -
Atheros based hardware to achieve higher than ethernet speeds over
wireless... This is not a tweak of 802.11, it is a completely
different
mode...

There is currently an opportunity to do so, where most of the work
  has
  been
done by various others in the FreeBSd community, but it is not
  integrated
  or
packaged as a useful WISP product, and that's what needs to be 
done.

This does not need to result in an open source release, due to the
relaxed
BSD license. Or, it can.   But I'm looking for some people who
have
experience with freebsd, and have an interest in integrating what
could
be
an awesome performing product using inexpensive commodity hardware.

email me at pda  at neofast dot net or mark at neofast dot net


--







  

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Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...

[MDK]

I don't think UBNT is using it.



--
From: "Randy Cosby" 
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:19 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product...

> I think what we're talking about is the TDMA package for Freebsd (which
> is probably exactly what is being used by UBNT).
>
> http://people.freebsd.org/~sam/TDMAPresentation-20090921.pdf
>
> Randy
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>> I think everything you have described can be done now with
>> Mikrotik routing, firewall, routing daemons, scripting, etc. also
>> being able to use $50 boards up to $1,000 X86 based systems moving
>> gigabits of traffic. All with standard parts.
>>
>> So what would this FreeBSD system bring to the table that can't be
>> done already?
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> MDK wrote:
>>> Actually, it's far better than cost-effective.
>>>
>>> It's flexible, in both hardware and capabilities.Firewall, routing,
>>> routing daemons, and other things.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I find the physical aspects of the Airmax stuff frustratingly
>>> limited.
>>>
>>> I've grown fond of my immense ability to do creative stuff with Star-OS 
>>> and
>>> a wide array of physical forms - especially since much of my network 
>>> relies
>>> on low power consumption.
>>>
>>> AirMax, deployed as an AP and clients...  seems ok.But that's only a
>>> small part of a good network.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Jayson Baker" 
>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:51 PM
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related 
>>> product...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Availability is supposedly resolved.  We'll see.
>>>>
>>>> Routing... there is a full SDK.  You can do anything you want on those
>>>> things.  The new ones have 400+MHz proc's, plenty to do some
>>>> routing/firewalling.
>>>>
>>>> I just can't see a home grown solution like you're proposing being
>>>> cost-effective.  We spent about 2 months on a project just like this, 
>>>> and
>>>> started to have some pretty awesome performance and results.
>>>>
>>>> Then UBNT stuff came out.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, MDK  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Given UBNT's  record of unavailability of product, and the inability 
>>>>> to
>>>>> route via the interface, I vastly prefer this to UBNT's products.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, mind you, I'm not really putting them down, but this is an 
>>>>> excellent
>>>>> infrastructure tool...Routing and other capabilities that vastly
>>>>> exceed
>>>>> some better known...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> From: "Jayson Baker" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:25 PM
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related
>>>>> product...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there really much need for this, given the new AirMax product 
>>>>>> line?
>>>>>> I'm just saying...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:19 PM, MDK  
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would you call a totally proprietary,  TDMA based protocol,
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> ACK
>>>>>>> or CSMA?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't look a whole lot like 802.11x, but if you wish to say it is,
>>>>>>> then,
>>>>>>> for you it is :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> From: "Travis Johnson" 
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:36 PM
>>>>>>> To

Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...

[MDK]

No, I have no url for this.  I'm trying to find out and see if there's 
enough people interested to go through that level of work.



--
From: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:02 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product...

> Does this rely on some unpublished feature of the current Atheros chipset 
> which could disappear in the next evolution making the project obsolete 
> and the effort wasted?
>
> Is there a URL for the project?
>
> Greg
>
> On Dec 1, 2009, at 12:56 AM, MDK wrote:
>
>> Actually, it's far better than cost-effective.
>>
>> It's flexible, in both hardware and capabilities.Firewall, routing,
>> routing daemons, and other things.
>>
>> Frankly, I find the physical aspects of the Airmax stuff frustratingly
>> limited.
>>
>> I've grown fond of my immense ability to do creative stuff with Star-OS 
>> and
>> a wide array of physical forms - especially since much of my network 
>> relies
>> on low power consumption.
>>
>> AirMax, deployed as an AP and clients...  seems ok.But that's only a
>> small part of a good network.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Jayson Baker" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:51 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related 
>> product...
>>
>>> Availability is supposedly resolved.  We'll see.
>>>
>>> Routing... there is a full SDK.  You can do anything you want on those
>>> things.  The new ones have 400+MHz proc's, plenty to do some
>>> routing/firewalling.
>>>
>>> I just can't see a home grown solution like you're proposing being
>>> cost-effective.  We spent about 2 months on a project just like this, 
>>> and
>>> started to have some pretty awesome performance and results.
>>>
>>> Then UBNT stuff came out.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Given UBNT's  record of unavailability of product, and the inability to
>>>> route via the interface, I vastly prefer this to UBNT's products.
>>>>
>>>> Now, mind you, I'm not really putting them down, but this is an 
>>>> excellent
>>>> infrastructure tool...    Routing and other capabilities that vastly
>>>> exceed
>>>> some better known...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> From: "Jayson Baker" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 8:25 PM
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related
>>>> product...
>>>>
>>>>> Is there really much need for this, given the new AirMax product line?
>>>>> I'm just saying...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:19 PM, MDK  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What would you call a totally proprietary,  TDMA based protocol,
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> ACK
>>>>>> or CSMA?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't look a whole lot like 802.11x, but if you wish to say it is,
>>>>>> then,
>>>>>> for you it is :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> From: "Travis Johnson" 
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 7:36 PM
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related
>>>>>> product...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are using Atheros based hardware, it's still 802.11...
>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>> of what software you put on top of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Travis
>>>>>>> Microserv
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MDK wrote:
>>>>>>>> If you're a WISP and have interest in using commodity - off the
>>>>>>>> shelf -
>>>>>>>> Atheros based hardware to achieve higher than ethernet speeds over
>>>>>>>

Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure

[MDK]

The most I have done so far, is to put 7 cards in one box.   I don't use 
shielding between them or anything, and have no known issues, except if I 
forget and use the diversity mode in the card, instead of locking to the 
port I'm using.

I'm about to upgrade one site to 10 cards in one steel box, but I don't 
expect any significant issues.

currently, the 7 break down as 2 at 2.4 and the rest 5Ghz.

two cards overlap, with one being a 20 mhz and one a ten mhz channel on the 
same center frequency, with not a lot of ill effects.   I know, bad form and 
all, but there's only ONE useable frequency in a certain area of downtown 
since I staked it out many years ago (nobody else has been able to squat on 
it and work, apparently), and so I have a sector and a p2p on the same 
frequencies in the same direction.

ONe feeds a busy office in the day, the other is busy residential at night, 
and I've found no signfiicant change in the main sector's loss overall, 
while the busy office went from poor behavior to reasonable. I'm going 
to replace this with a 3.65 p2p shortly.



--
From: "Mike" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:13 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure

> Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my
> messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject.
>
> I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea.  I do
> have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been
> afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case.
>
> The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to
> create a sort of Faraday shield?  I know the XRx cards do a good job
> of shielding if you attach the pigtail.
>
> How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards?  Has that been an
> issue?  I think the XR cards have better specs.  Wouldn't having
> multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too?
>
> Mike
>
>
> At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote:
>>Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the box,
>>the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in their 
>>own
>>box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's to a
>>central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away.  That's
>>one that I'm doing just to do it, basically.  Was an idea from someone a
>>couple of months ago.  (I actually listen to you guys)  Had a 600a doing
>>nothing and some 411 cards "so why not play?" was my thinking.
>>
>>Bob-
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>Behalf Of Mike
>>Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:48 AM
>>To: WISPA General List
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors
>>
>>Have you had any issues with putting 3 radio cards in the same
>>spectrum in the same box?  I've thought about that but wondered if
>>there would be desense issues where one transmitting desensitizes
>>another one listening.
>>
>>
>>At 08:38 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote:
>> >Yep, looks like you're hitting the wall.  We aren't lucky enough to push 
>> >3
>> >meg here, the most is usually 1 so again, all depends on your customer
>>base.
>> >
>> >I'd say if you already have 35 on that one AP, just splitting it into 2 
>> >180
>> >degree sectors will just cost you cash as soon as you gain a few more
>> >customers.  You already have 35 pulling it down, sounds like if you just 
>> >do
>> >2 180's, if split evenly (and it never will be) that would put you to 
>> >where
>> >you probably want to be for smooth delivery but not much room for more
>> >growth.  I'd go with 3 120's and a 433AH with 3 cards on it, one per
>>sector.
>> >I have a few like that and it works fine for what I do but again, I only
>> >dole out 1mb per sub typically.  I've also been upgrading some of my 
>> >remote
>> >AP's to one 433AH with only one radio installed and an Omni.  The
>> >anticipated upgrade path is to just add a sector or 2 and radio card as
>> >needed to the point where I have 3 sectors.  Keeping the Omni of course
>> >until the third sector is needed.  That's something someone already
>> >suggested doing and I like the economics of it.
>> >
>> >Bob-
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >-Original Message-
>> >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> >Behalf Of Jason Hensley
>> >Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:26 AM
>> >To: 'WISPA General List'
>> >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors
>> >
>> >Max 3meg - b only mode on this particular AP.  Most are still able to 
>> >get
>> >that, but we're seeing a decline on how many can pull 3meg.  At peak 
>> >times,
>> >we've seen it to where users aren't able to get much over 1meg, but 
>> >that's
>> >not happening very often right now.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >-Original Message-
>> >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> >Behalf Of Robert West
>> >Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009

Re: [WISPA] Awnser to how Airspan got the upper 3.65 ghz bandunlocked!

[MDK]

They described CSMA in different language.By every reasonable 
comparison, the 802.11a protocol addresses every concern the FCC has, but 
would not certify...

--
From: "Matt" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:21 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Awnser to how Airspan got the upper 3.65 ghz 
bandunlocked!

>> PDF of the contention based protocol
>
> GPS sync would have been so much better if everyone could agree on
> standardized time slices.  This will have an impact on VOIP and gaming
> the way I read it.
>
> Matt
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
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>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure

[MDK]

Aluminum is moderately effective at attenuating microwave rf.

Steel is needed to dampen EMP (from lightning strikes).



--
From: "Josh Luthman" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:35 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure

> Does die cast aluminum count as metal in this case?  Do you normally use
> steel if not?
>
> I use these:
> http://quicklinkwireless.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=DCE-H-LG-2&eq=&Tp=
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Marlon K. Schafer 
> wrote:
>
>> I've given up on this.  There is just too much cross talk.  I put all
>> radios
>> in the same band in their own METAL enclosure nowadays.  I try to keep 
>> them
>> at least 3 or 6 feet apart too.  Life is much much nicer.
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Mike" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:13 AM
>> Subject: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
>>
>>
>> > Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my
>> > messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject.
>> >
>> > I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea.  I do
>> > have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been
>> > afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case.
>> >
>> > The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to
>> > create a sort of Faraday shield?  I know the XRx cards do a good job
>> > of shielding if you attach the pigtail.
>> >
>> > How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards?  Has that been an
>> > issue?  I think the XR cards have better specs.  Wouldn't having
>> > multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too?
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> > At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote:
>> >>Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the 
>> >>box,
>> >>the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in 
>> >>their
>> >>own
>> >>box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's to 
>> >>a
>> >>central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away.
>>  That's
>> >>one that I'm doing just to do it, basically.  Was an idea from someone 
>> >>a
>> >>couple of months ago.  (I actually listen to you guys)  Had a 600a 
>> >>doing
>> >>nothing and some 411 cards "so why not play?" was my thinking.
>> >>
>> >>Bob-
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-Original Message-
>> >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> >>Behalf Of Mike
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:48 AM
>> >>To: WISPA General List
>> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors
>> >>
>> >>Have you had any issues with putting 3 radio cards in the same
>> >>spectrum in the same box?  I've thought about that but wondered if
>> >>there would be desense issues where one transmitting desensitizes
>> >>another one listening.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>At 08:38 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote:
>> >> >Yep, looks like you're hitting the wall.  We aren't lucky enough to
>> push
>> >> >3
>> >> >meg here, the most is usually 1 so again, all depends on your 
>> >> >customer
>> >>base.
>> >> >
>> >> >I'd say if you already have 35 on that one AP, just splitting it into 
>> >> >2
>> >> >180
>> >> >degree sectors will just cost you cash as soon as you gain a few more
>> >> >customers.  You already have 35 pulling it down, sounds like if you
>> just
>> >> >do
>> >> >2 180's, if split evenly (and it never will be) that would put you to
>> >> >where
>> >> >you probably want to be for smooth delivery but not much room for 
>> >> >more
>> >> >growth.  I'd go with 3 120's and a 433AH with 3 cards on it, one per
>> >>sector.
>> >> >I have a few like that and it works fine for what I do but again, I
>> only
>> >> >dole out 1mb per sub typically.  I've also been upgrading some of my
>> >> >remote
>> >> >AP's to one 433AH with only one radio installed and an Omni.  The
>> >> >anticipated upgrade path is to just add a sector or 2 and radio card 
>> >> >as
>> >> >needed to the point where I have 3 sectors.  Keeping the Omni of 
>> >> >course
>> >> >until the third sector is needed.  That's something someone already
>> >> >suggested doing and I like the economics of it.
>> >> >
>> >> >Bob-
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >-Original Message-
>> >> >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>> >> >Behalf Of Jason Hensley
>> >> >Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:26 AM
>> >> >To: 'WISPA General List'
>> >> >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors
>> >> >
>> >> >Max 3meg - b only mode on this particular AP.  Most are still able to
>> >> >get
>> >> >that, but we're seeing a decline on how many can pull 3meg.  At peak
>> >> >times,
>> >> >we've seen it to where users aren't able to get much over 1me

Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure

[MDK]

If I could find some at anything like a reasonable cost, I'd have that 
answer :)



--
From: "Josh Luthman" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:44 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure

> Can you tell me where you get your steel boxes?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 12:41 AM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> Aluminum is moderately effective at attenuating microwave rf.
>>
>> Steel is needed to dampen EMP (from lightning strikes).
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:35 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
>>
>> > Does die cast aluminum count as metal in this case?  Do you normally 
>> > use
>> > steel if not?
>> >
>> > I use these:
>> > http://quicklinkwireless.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=DCE-H-LG-2&eq=&Tp=
>> >
>> > Josh Luthman
>> > Office: 937-552-2340
>> > Direct: 937-552-2343
>> > 1100 Wayne St
>> > Suite 1337
>> > Troy, OH 45373
>> >
>> > "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
>> > --- Albert Einstein
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Marlon K. Schafer
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've given up on this.  There is just too much cross talk.  I put all
>> >> radios
>> >> in the same band in their own METAL enclosure nowadays.  I try to keep
>> >> them
>> >> at least 3 or 6 feet apart too.  Life is much much nicer.
>> >> marlon
>> >>
>> >> - Original Message -
>> >> From: "Mike" 
>> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:13 AM
>> >> Subject: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my
>> >> > messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea.  I do
>> >> > have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been
>> >> > afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case.
>> >> >
>> >> > The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to
>> >> > create a sort of Faraday shield?  I know the XRx cards do a good job
>> >> > of shielding if you attach the pigtail.
>> >> >
>> >> > How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards?  Has that been 
>> >> > an
>> >> > issue?  I think the XR cards have better specs.  Wouldn't having
>> >> > multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too?
>> >> >
>> >> > Mike
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote:
>> >> >>Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the
>> >> >>box,
>> >> >>the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in
>> >> >>their
>> >> >>own
>> >> >>box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's 
>> >> >>to
>> >> >>a
>> >> >>central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away.
>> >>  That's
>> >> >>one that I'm doing just to do it, basically.  Was an idea from 
>> >> >>someone
>> >> >>a
>> >> >>couple of months ago.  (I actually listen to you guys)  Had a 600a
>> >> >>doing
>> >> >>nothing and some 411 cards "so why not play?" was my thinking.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Bob-
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>-Original Message-
>> >> >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>> >> >>Behalf Of Mike
>> >> >>Sent: Wednesday, Dec

Re: [WISPA] health insurance

[MDK]

It's my understanding that for purposes of insurance, the rules that govern 
1099 work are being changed dramatically.The "subcontractor" status is 
mostly going to go away. This will mean that if someone runs his own 
business, but only works for you,  bye bye status... and that includes 
workman's comp, unemployment, withholdings, etc.

Heaven only knows if this is in whatever abomination is finally produced, 
but the intent is definitely to pretty much end this kind of stuff.   One of 
the ways that was in one of the bills, was to force all individuals who work 
under that status to buy insurance.

--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:15 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] health insurance

> H..  I feel an increase in the use of the 1099 form would 
> be
> the easy answer.  I lived as a 1099 for many years.
>
> I'm with you on your feelings of "get all the way in or get all the way
> out".  I'd prefer they get all the way in and just do it because, 
> honestly,
> it will happen in the end anyhow.  Why put it off and cause more 
> suffering?
> I know, politics doesn't belong here usually and I won't be hit like that
> but it is an issue for some of us.  (And as far as I'm concerned they can
> give gays marriage also and just get it the heck out of the way finally,
> sheeesh!  Why should I be the only one to suffer through marriage???)
>
> But the reality is that many companies are going to go to making who they
> can a 1099 contractor and that's going to open up another can of left in 
> the
> sun worms.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:50 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] health insurance
>
> Hi,
>
> What are everyone else's plans if this new health insurance plan gets
> passed in Congress? We fall in the 25-100 employee category, so they are
> estimating our health insurance costs would go up $412 per employee for
> us (we already cover 100% of the costs for our employees). So, basically
> this would force us to go to a subcontractor type work-force (at least
> for 5-10 of our current employees) to get us under the 25 employee limit
> and offer less benefits for everyone in the company.
>
> Once again, it seems our government is stepping in where it doesn't
> belong. Either take over the health care system 100% (including funding
> it), or leave it alone.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] health insurance

[MDK]

I'd agree with you...but, this admin is determined to break everything.

Normally Congress wouldn't get this meddlesome, either, because they don't 
like big changes, but right now, the radicals are driving the agenda, 
because they're in charge...   and using every sledghammer or bribery or 
extortion means they have to get compliance out of the hesitant...   It's 
not politics as usual, in any sense.  Things we used to consider safe 
aren't, and axioms that used to be, are no longer.





--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:30 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] health insurance

> Now, now, now..  You know as well as I that any rule they make and any
> hurdle they put up on the front end, they also make rules and take down
> hurdles on the back end so that things only appear different yet remain 
> the
> same.
>
> The goal of most politicians is to do nothing yet appear to be doing
> everything.  It's all noise and fluff and in the end we'll just be filling
> out a form with a different number yet the information required will be
> identical to the 1099.
>
>
> My wife agrees with me and she is always right.
>
> Bob-
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 3:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] health insurance
>
>
> It's my understanding that for purposes of insurance, the rules that 
> govern
> 1099 work are being changed dramatically.The "subcontractor" status is
> mostly going to go away. This will mean that if someone runs his own
> business, but only works for you,  bye bye status... and that includes
> workman's comp, unemployment, withholdings, etc.
>
> Heaven only knows if this is in whatever abomination is finally produced,
> but the intent is definitely to pretty much end this kind of stuff.   One 
> of
>
> the ways that was in one of the bills, was to force all individuals who 
> work
>
> under that status to buy insurance.
>
> --
> From: "Robert West" 
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:15 PM
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] health insurance
>
>> H..  I feel an increase in the use of the 1099 form would
>> be
>> the easy answer.  I lived as a 1099 for many years.
>>
>> I'm with you on your feelings of "get all the way in or get all the way
>> out".  I'd prefer they get all the way in and just do it because,
>> honestly,
>> it will happen in the end anyhow.  Why put it off and cause more
>> suffering?
>> I know, politics doesn't belong here usually and I won't be hit like that
>> but it is an issue for some of us.  (And as far as I'm concerned they can
>> give gays marriage also and just get it the heck out of the way finally,
>> sheeesh!  Why should I be the only one to suffer through marriage???)
>>
>> But the reality is that many companies are going to go to making who they
>> can a 1099 contractor and that's going to open up another can of left in
>> the
>> sun worms.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:50 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: [WISPA] health insurance
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> What are everyone else's plans if this new health insurance plan gets
>> passed in Congress? We fall in the 25-100 employee category, so they are
>> estimating our health insurance costs would go up $412 per employee for
>> us (we already cover 100% of the costs for our employees). So, basically
>> this would force us to go to a subcontractor type work-force (at least
>> for 5-10 of our current employees) to get us under the 25 employee limit
>> and offer less benefits for everyone in the company.
>>
>> Once again, it seems our government is stepping in where it doesn't
>> belong. Either take over the health care system 100% (including funding
>> it), or leave it alone.
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>>
>>
> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
> --

[WISPA] One long @#$%& day!

[MDK]

It's 2:30 AM...

I just drove up to the house, and walked VERY fast inside.   After all, 
weather.com says that it's 12 degrees and an 8 MPH wind.   In their head, 
maybe.Outside of the little valley I live in, the wind's more like 25 
mph.   There's no snow on the ground.

I don't make a habit of staying up late,  but last night, I was doing one of 
those "let's just have some fun" looking around sessions on EBAY.   Next 
thing I knew, it was nearly 3AM.   Without shutting anything down, I just 
crawled into bed.   At 8:45 my cell phone rang...  I didn't answer it, but I 
did get up.  Looked at my computer and Peer Monitor says... nothing is 
connected.Now, I have had some issues with one of the dist points a few 
miles outside of town.It had randomly locked up 3 times last week. 
Each time, I thought I had found the problem and not worried about it.

The first time for instance, it was extremely dense fog, and I found the 
ventilation fan running in the box.   Thinking I had sucked in too much 
damp, I just shut it off and rebooted.   The locked up system is a mini-itx 
board and RB 14 adapter card W/4 radios...

Obviously, I was wrong.   Something was wrong.   It had run since Friday, 
but now it's Sun AM and PM says I've been off for 3 hours.   It's died 2 
other times since the fog incident, so... Houston, we have a problem...

I quick yanked on some clothes and drove up the mountain to the site, used 
the step ladder to get to the box lid and looked in.  Restarted and 
everything went off just fine. But, it's now done this several times. 
And that's not good or right.   I look in the van.   Spare mini-ITX board, 
licensed.   Spare RB14, 2 spare radios, including an XR5, just like what's 
up there.Anyway, morning zips by, and I have an appointment in the 
afternoon to switch a family friend's computer out for her.   So, I go to do 
that and she's not home.   That's odd.  I could have sworn she said she'd be 
there at 2...   I wanted to be home, nice and warm and setting up the new 
board so I could change in in daylight tomorrow.

So, I go to the workshop and do some stuff I've been putting off and ... 
fall asleep, waiting for an OS install to finish.   When I wake up, it's 
after 5.   Must have slept at least 15 min... Sheesh.   So, I get up, drive 
over to house, start the project.   30 min later, my phone beeps.   Text 
message...  Site's down.ARRRGGH.

25 minute drive to the site and I reboot it.Go home, pull out the parts 
and start to assemble the whole thing.   It goes down again .   Drive back 
up, restart.   This time, nothing will coax it into running.   Finally, I 
pull everything out, and take it home.   Now the phone's going nuts.  I just 
put 60 customers down.   I take it home, cause it's COLD out there on the 
hillside... and everything runs flawlessly.   Just to be judicious, I grab a 
config backup off of it, 'cause it's changed lately and my last backup is a 
few weeks old.

I haul it up the mountain, put it back in place... No run.
So, I go home, grab the spare mini-itx, use the backup config and haul it up 
the mountain.

Won't boot.  Doesn't even beep.Power comes on, but no beep.

Haul it down the mountain, back home (this is .7 miles of rocky pasture I 
drive through at idle in 1st gear, then 5 miles of paved road.  Takes 20 min 
round trip) with all the parts.   Runs flawlessly. Haul it back up the 
mountain, plug it in, boots, but locks 5 to 60 seconds after booting.

Inspect EVERYTHING (it's dark, so had to do it all by flashlight) again.   I 
see nothing.   So, I grab the spare RB14, switch the radios over and plug it 
in.   Boots.   Lights flash.   Fire up the laptop and no.  It's not working. 
log in through ethernet port... NO RADIOS DETECTED.

Put old RB14 back in, change one radio.   Boots up.  Logs in.   all radios 
detect, data flowing to customers.

Drive home.   Try to thaw out.   The wind up there is 25 mph and it cuts 
like a knife through you.Log in from home and watch everything, suddenly 
noticed one of the ap radios has no clients.   Odd.   Look at config, looks 
ok, reset radio, clients begin to associate.   As they slowly hop on, I'm 
sitting there wondering why this... and just then,  PM suddenly starts 
popping up red.Sure enough.   System locked.

Drive up the mountain, put in second spare radio in place of XR5 and boot. 
(Spare XR5, was used for 2 weeks in temp site).System boots and runs and 
...   No link to the XR5.Try new pigtail.Dead.How strange.   It 
worked fine just 9 days ago, and it's been stored in the ALIX board it was 
installed and working in all this time.

As I'm sitting and watching while sitting in the van, trying to stop 
shivering with the heat on full blast, It locks up again.  I reboot. 
Everything comes up, I had put the old XR5 in, and everything starts 
working - apparently it wasn't the pigtail, just the replacement XR5 that 
had no output.   Waited 15 min, still runni

Re: [WISPA] One long @#$%& day!

[MDK]

LOL!It really was a very warm hat.



--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:58 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] One long @#$%& day!

> Are you sure you didn't eat spicy food before bed and this was just a
> nightmare?
>
> At least you got a new hat.  That's the bright side out of all this, I 
> say.
>
 




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Re: [WISPA] One long @#$%& day!

[MDK]

I have several ITX based sites, none of them have any temperature related 
issues.  I believe that I had some flaky part, and I'm still not sure if 
it's a radio or the RB14.This system ran flawlessly all summer in this 
exact config, and the VIA Epia that I replaced has  been in place for at 
least 3 or 4 years.I don't think anything's wrong with it, actually. 
It's not a power supply issue, since I ran both boards directly off a 12V 
deep cycle, and the voltage is right there where it should be.

However, I am dropping the Epia's for ALIX boards. Faster, nicer form 
factor, cheaper since I don't need an ATX PS or  ram, and they seem to be 
much faster.

I have one site with 5 radios... One in the ALIX board, 4 in the RB14 
It's absolutely rock solid, never locks, crashes, or anything,.

I'm adding a second 5 radio setup to that site this week.Or maybe next 
week.   I just used up a bunch of my spare parts :(




--
From: "Josh Luthman" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:43 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] One long @#$%& day!

> I have RB333, 532, 433 and 411 survive without issue last winter when it 
> hit
> -10F.  Non temperature controlled environments - freezing their chips off 
> on
> water towers and towers.
>
> I'd take the suggestion provided and just use a Routerboard.  ITX is 
> decent
> but I've seen several scenarios frown upon it in cold weather (like
> carputers)?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Mike Hammett 
> wrote:
>
>> MT provides a specially modified RB14 (at least they did a few years ago)
>> that handles multiple high power cards.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "jp" 
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:17 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] One long @#$%& day!
>>
>> > I don't think an rb14 can handle the power need of multiple XR cards.
>> >
>> > I'd suggest unless you have a good reason besides saving $100, either
>> > use routerboards or stick to manufactured radio systems from a 
>> > reputable
>> > and reliable manufacturer.
>> >
>> > You pay more money or give up a little flexibility, but it gives YOU
>> > more time to gain customers, sleep, etc... I love tinkering as much as
>> > the next guy, and I have a a variety of MT links, but I stick to
>> > familiar and trusted components despite the alluring variety of parts
>> > out there. Far Far outnumbering MT radios on my network are brand name
>> > radios from folks like Alvarion, Trango, and others. If I built all my
>> > radios and APs, I'd be out of business in a hurry as I'd be working 
>> > full
>> > time tinkering instead of running an ISP, or hiring staff to build
>> > radio equipment instead of installing and taking care of customers.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 03:49:59AM -0800, MDK wrote:
>> >> It's 2:30 AM...
>> >>
>> >> I just drove up to the house, and walked VERY fast inside.   After 
>> >> all,
>> >> weather.com says that it's 12 degrees and an 8 MPH wind.   In their
>> head,
>> >> maybe.Outside of the little valley I live in, the wind's more like
>> 25
>> >> mph.   There's no snow on the ground.
>> >>
>> >> I don't make a habit of staying up late,  but last night, I was doing
>> one
>> >> of
>> >> those "let's just have some fun" looking around sessions on EBAY. 
>> >> Next
>> >> thing I knew, it was nearly 3AM.   Without shutting anything down, I
>> just
>> >> crawled into bed.   At 8:45 my cell phone rang...  I didn't answer it,
>> >> but I
>> >> did get up.  Looked at my computer and Peer Monitor says... nothing is
>> >> connected.Now, I have had some issues with one of the dist points 
>> >> a
>> >> few
>> >> miles outside of town.It had randomly locked up 3 times last week.
>> >> Each time, I thought I had found the problem and not worried about it.
&g

[WISPA] The long day...final insult

[MDK]

So, I get to the workshop this afternoon, and walk in.There's a cat on 
my chair.I have NO idea how he got in, other than he must have dashed 
through the door as I walked in or out.   I specifically made sure he wasn't 
in the next to last time I walked in or out.

And, of course, as soon as I kicked the heat on and it warmed up, the 
pungent aroma   he'd messed under my rollaround desk chair...

And I had rolled the chair through it to sit at my workstation.

( pounds head slowly against monitor.   slowly, of course, I have a 
splitting headache from lack of sleep)



--
From: "RickG" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:02 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] One long @#$%& day!

> I've had a great experince over the past few years with StarOS/WRAP 
> combos.
> They just work. With that said, I am slowly migrating to
> Mikrotik/Routerboards because I like the control they offer. So far, they
> just work as well. -RickG
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:39 PM, jree...@18-30chat.net <
> jree...@18-30chat.net> wrote:
>
>> SShhh, don't tell him that, hes a StarOS guy =)
>>
>> Along the same, my primary site went down last night, cycling every
>> 30~45seconds. -15F reported at the site this morning. RB433 is spec'd
>> for -4FW T F
>>
>> Time to replace it with a few NS's and a RB450/750 in better temp
>> controlled
>> case. To bad they do not make a RB790 with POE =)
>>
>>
>> jp wrote:
>> > I don't think an rb14 can handle the power need of multiple XR cards.
>> >
>> > I'd suggest unless you have a good reason besides saving $100, either
>> > use routerboards or stick to manufactured radio systems from a 
>> > reputable
>> > and reliable manufacturer.
>> >
>> > You pay more money or give up a little flexibility, but it gives YOU
>> > more time to gain customers, sleep, etc... I love tinkering as much as
>> > the next guy, and I have a a variety of MT links, but I stick to
>> > familiar and trusted components despite the alluring variety of parts
>> > out there. Far Far outnumbering MT radios on my network are brand name
>> > radios from folks like Alvarion, Trango, and others. If I built all my
>> > radios and APs, I'd be out of business in a hurry as I'd be working 
>> > full
>> > time tinkering instead of running an ISP, or hiring staff to build
>> > radio equipment instead of installing and taking care of customers.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 03:49:59AM -0800, MDK wrote:
>> >> It's 2:30 AM...
>> >>
>> >> I just drove up to the house, and walked VERY fast inside.   After 
>> >> all,
>> >> weather.com says that it's 12 degrees and an 8 MPH wind.   In their
>> head,
>> >> maybe.Outside of the little valley I live in, the wind's more like
>> 25
>> >> mph.   There's no snow on the ground.
>> >>
>> >> I don't make a habit of staying up late,  but last night, I was doing
>> one of
>> >> those "let's just have some fun" looking around sessions on EBAY. 
>> >> Next
>> >> thing I knew, it was nearly 3AM.   Without shutting anything down, I
>> just
>> >> crawled into bed.   At 8:45 my cell phone rang...  I didn't answer it,
>> but I
>> >> did get up.  Looked at my computer and Peer Monitor says... nothing is
>> >> connected.Now, I have had some issues with one of the dist points 
>> >> a
>> few
>> >> miles outside of town.It had randomly locked up 3 times last week.
>> >> Each time, I thought I had found the problem and not worried about it.
>> >>
>> >> The first time for instance, it was extremely dense fog, and I found 
>> >> the
>> >> ventilation fan running in the box.   Thinking I had sucked in too 
>> >> much
>> >> damp, I just shut it off and rebooted.   The locked up system is a
>> mini-itx
>> >> board and RB 14 adapter card W/4 radios...
>> >>
>> >> Obviously, I was wrong.   Something was wrong.   It had run since
>> Friday,
>> >> but now it's Sun AM and PM says I've been off for 3 hours.   It's died 
>> >> 2
>> >> other times since the fog incident, so... Houston, we have a 
>> >> problem...
>> >>
>> >> I quick yanked on some clothes and drove up the mo

[WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

As business people, we should be looking at insurance for health like we do 
as insurance for everything else.What's it there for?   Protect us from 
catastrophe, like falling through some guy's glass skylight, or accidently 
parking the bucket truck on top of his sprinker control box and it falls 
through the lid...   Or, think of any other catastrophic accident, in terms 
of cost...

I don't know about you, but in my family, we evaluate our spending on food, 
cell phones, and other stuff on a regular basis.   We have an item that goes 
to pay doctor bills.I haven't had insurance in years, but we do have a 
hundreds of dollars a month budget item.   (there's 7 in the family).

Imagine if used the insurance on the work rig to pay for having the tires 
changed, oil changed,  washed,  seat tear fixed, tuneups, and even brake 
jobs.Not only would your car insurance be stupidly high,  we'd never 
care what the places charged to do the fixing, since insurance pays.   As 
business people, we use our analytical powers to fix stuff, save money, etc.

Apply it to health insurance.You KNOW you're going to spend money on it. 
Budget for it.   But use insurance only as catastrophic relief, and find 
doctors, clinics, pharmacies that give you the best deal for cash, and take 
advantage of it.Since WWII, the laws concerning taxes and wage controls 
provided high incentive for employers to pay for health insurance as a 
benefit to be competitive.Now, everyone expects employer to pay the bill 
and health care should be "free" or close to it.

Since that means YOU consume, the insurance pays, the doctor charges... 
You can fully understand why prices spiral out of control - there is no 
market forces to control prices.

Every single payer health system in the world controls costs by simply 
deciding who can and who cannot be treated.It lacks any market forces to 
make anyone or anything competitive.And we've almost done that here, by 
removing the consumer from the equation.

Imagine what kind of revenues we could generate if the government promised 
everyone broadband... the consumer used, we provided, beaurocrats pay. 
Either prices would spiral upwards wildly, or we'd start capping customers 
and limiting use to control OUR costs.

The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...   Now 
imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that, don't 
we?

 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

So is food an absolute necessity.

Does this mean we should have a single farmer system run by the government?

Maybe we should have a single ISP system, run by the government?   Single 
car maker, run by the government?Single housing contractor, run by 
Congress?Single clothing maker, the federal clothing agency?

Come on.   You just can't go there, can you?Well, some people would. 
They view government as holy and perfect, and just have a religious faith in 
it.The rest of us live in the real world and it would seem that given a 
few minutes of thought,  it makes less than no sense to have the government 
run health care.

Medicare?Please.Don't even dream of such nonsense.

Medicare reimburses doctors, hospitals, etc, somewhere between 10 and 60% of 
the COST of what people who are on medicare actually get.The rest of us 
who actually PAY are paying to subsidize them.

If everyone were transferred to Medicare, it would take somewhere between 90 
and 270 days for almost every hospital, doctor's office, etc, to either go 
bankrupt or close voluntarily. At the rates at which Mecicare pays, the 
best doctor you could get would be an email conference with some guy in 
India who collects $3 per consult.

It is NOT an option.

Frankly, for those of you want a single payer system...   Could you tell the 
rest of us what experience you have with a federal agency that has so 
inspired you with confidence over their efficiency, responsiveness, wisdom, 
and fantastic ability, that you stood in awe and said "I want them in charge 
of my life!" And, not only did that, but in your mind, completely made 
up for the Postal service, the IRS, EPA, and all the other alphabet soup 
which are stunning examples of "how to be wrong, wasteful, stupid and 
irresponsible, overbearing, abusive, rude, power-trip seekers, and yet never 
get fired"?

If that hasn't happened to you, then what sort of fantasy do you indulge in, 
that makes you think the government is just so darn good at running stuff? 
Please provide an example of how the federal government is such a fantastic 
administrator of our money, while you're at it...

I have just GOT to know where these fantasies... Or, maybe they are real 
life experiences - the likes of which I have never witnessed, read about, 
heard about, seen, or experienced personally...   Come from, that so inspire 
people to put their life in the hands of Congress.

My experience says I'd rather do surgery on myself.



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>
> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
> health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
> free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
> person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
> "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
> American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, 
> in
> my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
> human kindness and compassion.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

As I stated before...   Medicare reimburses such low amounts, that ever 
doctor, hospital, clinic, lab, etc, that accepts it does so at a loss.   Not 
just "no profit" but at a loss.Not only that, but Medicare has the 
highest level of financial fraud, period.   It's very efficient... at giving 
away money for nothing, and yet, at the same time,  has created the single 
largest "pick the pocket of someone else" program to exist.



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:24 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

>>
>>
>> Source please?
>>
>>
> http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq
>
> (The overhead numbers come from "Won't this be just another bureaucracy?")
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

LOL...

I was being lectured by some do-gooder online for my rotten morality, and my 
answer to him was...

"So, I have invested my entire life savings, toiled for 4 years without a 
paycheck to put all the cash back into the business, and have worked more 
hours than can ever be accounted for.   My phone is on 24/7, people feel 
free to call me from 5 AM to midnight, and expect me to respond, even if 
it's a holiday weekend.Nobody paid insurance for me,  I get no vacation, 
I have no right to unemployment should I go broke,  but yet I face liability 
and lawsuits if someone finds themselves inconvenienced.   I have no right 
to a paycheck, compensation, health care, nor ANYTHING most employers pay to 
employees...

But yet, after I've invested my whole life, sacrificed everything from 
Christmas dinners to family vacations to marital happiness (should hear the 
wife when I have to work and she had other ideas!), but should some person 
with dubious skills, no experience, possibly no loyalty to me or my business 
come to me and I see fit to take a chance on trading money for his time, I 
have a moral obligation to give him things I don't have myself?I OWE him 
not laying him off, unlimited expenditures for training, health care 
insurance, paid time off for vacations and assorted other benefits?

The twit in question then berated me for being a selfish capitalist.   I'm 
supposed to do this without ever a thought to my own benefit, just do it for 
everyone else.

At that point, I've given up on the "entitlement" crowd.   As far as I am 
concerned, anyone who thinks ANY need is a "right" to demand someone else 
provide is deficient, both in morality and in decency.I have a right to 
just one thing in this world - to breath.Everything else is either 
earned, or given out of generosity.I am NOT your slave, you have no 
right whatsoever to ANYTHING I do, no matter how fancy your argument about 
how you want to live without stress or worry at the expense of others. 
And I have no right to anything of yours, either.



--
From: "RickG" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:27 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> When you own a business, you take a huge risk using a lot of blood, sweat,
> tears, time away from the family, worrying about the baby. Then you have 
> to
> fight for it because all they want to do is take it away. It changes your
> perspective on life and the order of things.
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

I dunno about him, but I can tell you that over the last 5.5 years I've been 
in business, I have seen the last of the rice, beans, flour, bread, milk 
vanish and the bank account be just as empty as the fridge and pantry a good 
many times.

And, even when facing that kind of need at home, I've forgiven people's 
arrears accounts because they had no job or income and simply could not pay, 
and kept them in service so they could continue to job search.

Maybe, unlike David's belief, generosity is best done personally, not the 
fake kind doled out by uncaring lifetime agency hacks...



--
From: "RickG" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:48 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> "Those that cant" are already covered by the generosity of the US 
> taxpayer.
> That goes back to my original question: Who does not have access?
>
> As far as compassion, I appreciate yours. I've had some very rough times
> myself over the years. If/when I get into another rough time, I need to
> count on you to pay for my health care. Can I give you call?
>
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

Think IRS compassion.

I've got a personal debt to my state, and you have no idea how incredibly 
nasty they are.

The guy actually told me wife it would be better if she were also 
unemployed, so as to assure that no additional tax debt might be incurred.

Now THAT is the kind of health care agency we need.



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:51 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:46, Marlon K. Schafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Think of the stereotypical government agency.  Driver's license office.
>>
>
> Last time I was there, I was in and out in about ten minutes. Granted, 
> that
> was several years ago; the last few transactions I had with them were
> online.
>
>
>> Road department.
>
>
> Yup, there's roads. They work just fine for driving on. Last time it 
> snowed,
> they were even more-or-less clear by the time I was out driving on 'em.
>
>
>
>> VA hospital.
>
>
> I've no experience with this.
>
>
>>  Our education system is almost 100%
>> government funded and controlled (ask your local school board just how 
>> much
>> say they really have) and it's supposedly among the worst in the
>> industrialized world.
>>
>
> I think I turned out okay, though I imagine at this point some of you
> disagree :v
>
>
>>
>> Do you REALLY think that the government will finally, somehow, magically
>> start doing a good job with health care?  Honestly?  How would it be any
>> different than any other government agency?
>>
>
> I have no problem with any of these examples.
>
>
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

Marlon...  Exactly.

A number of years ago, I made acquaintance of nice guy who is Norwegian... A 
programmer, open source aficionado. One day we got talking about our 
living - you know, home, car, food, etc.I mentioned something about 
losing my home a few years back due to unemployment.   He just lost it.   He 
claimed that if he would be homeless or go hungry if he didn't stay 
employed, the stress would kill him, and he would literally be so unnerved 
he could not focus and work.

And they wonder why Americans are so danged tough, when it comes down to it.

Although, from reading this list, it seems some people want it pretty danged 
soft.

We as imperfect humans ARE motivated to improve our lot in life.Harness 
that motive and jump back.



--
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:06 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> I've always thought this was really pretty easy.
>
> Dave, just pick ONE family and pay their insurance for them!  It's well
> within your right to do so.  And it helps one other family afford health
> care.
>
> I give a lot of food away.  I give internet away.  I let others us my land
> for free.  But *I* get to pick who I do that for.  That's what freedom is.
>
> If someone else were to tell me who to feed, who to let on my property, 
> who
> to give my internet to, I've not lost me freedom.  If I loose my freedom
> what do I have left to work for?  To fight for?  To die for?
>
> marlon
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

I'm sure you're a nice guy...

But you're trying to convince a lot of people who know better by long years 
of experience, that life would be beautiful and all will be fine, if we just 
give Congress a few more trillion dollars a year of our hard earned money.

Oh, and defining being "moral and caring" as giving Congress more money is 
an insult to people who know better.



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:17 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> I'm trying to advocate a position I believe will provide affordable (free)
> health care for everyone, which is a net gain for society. Collectively, 
> we
> all would pay less, and most of us as individuals would pay less, for a 
> good
> single-payer system. Heck, it works for every other civilized country on 
> the
> planet, it just might work here too.
 




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[WISPA] Introducing NetCare

[MDK]

After long debate, it has been determined that the reason the US lags behind 
other countries is that it costs too much, and people need help... so, 
here's the new solution.

Introducing Federal NetCare, the program to make broadband available to 
everyone.

Here's how it works:   There's a simple, 4 page application process, where 
you list your internet usage,  your computer ownership, your current 
broadband (or lack of), and the need in your household for broadband.

When you sign up, the application is free, and when you get your letter of 
acceptance from the NetCare administration, you can then obtain broadband 
for a small, set fee.   While the fee may vary according to how many 
computers and your apparent need for broadband,  it will not be more than $6 
per month, nor less than $2.Once you enroll, you may then take your 
NetCare enrollment ID to any participating internet service provider, who 
will provide you service.

ISP's, this is a wonderful opportunity for you.   Here's a chance to gain a 
dramatic increase in the number of customers, by advertising that you accept 
NetCare.

Enrollment is quite simple.Provide 4 years of tax filings,  and a 
complete audit of the costs of your operation using GAAP.   Or, enroll for 
NetCare Express.If you choose NetCare Express, your cost of providing 
service will be estimated according to regional averages and you will be 
compensated 60% of the estimated costs of providing broadband up to 40% of 
your published rates.   In no case will this be greater than 40% of your 
retail price.If you choose standard NetCare enrollment, you will be 
compensated according to your actual costs by multiplying your costs by a 
sliding scale of  .3 to .7, depending on the profitability of your company, 
whether you hire veterans, and whether you use SEIU wage and benefit scale 
for your employees.If your company has an overall profitability greater 
than 5% of gross receipts, if you do not pay union scale to your employees 
and have no veterans on staff, and have a low percentage of employees with a 
Bachelor's degree or higher, your maximum reimbursement will be 30% of your 
costs. Each item of compliance raises your reimbursement percentage by 
10 percent.

Enrollment in NetCare is currently optional, but if the rate of broadband 
acceptance by consumers doesn't reach the target goal of 90% set by Congress 
in 2 years, NetCare enrollment will be forced on all internet service 
providers.   Refusing to provide services to NetCare enrollees will result 
in fines and civil actions against your company, amounting to $10,000 / day.

The FCC released a statement today saying "This will revolutionize our 
economy.   No longer is broadband out of reach for anyone.   By creating a 
public - private partnership, and careful group purchase of services with 
it's accompanying discounts,  we have broken the broadband barrier, 
broadband is now available to all, at rates that everyone can afford.

( Please note, resemblance to Medicare, Medicaid, and assorted other 
government run medical services is totally intentional, and hopefully the 
readers will be smart enough to start thinking about the abject folly of 
attempting universal coverage by enforced discounts... Written in terms any 
ISP can understand, even if they've never bothered to be analytical before.) 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

Every country with a government run medical system   Denies routine 
medical care, extraordinary medical care, or expensive medical care on a 
routine basis.   This is why babies delivered by the NHS hospitals in 
Britain are less than 90% born in a hospital room or delivery room. The 
rest are born in hallways, waiting rooms, streets, cabs, or ambulances 
because there are no available rooms.And, this number hasn't changed 
significantly in years and will not change, because the government simply 
hasn't enough money to expand facilities.

This is why in some cities in Canada, the wait for the assignment of a 
personal physician can take up to 5 years.The government can't hire 
enough doctors, and those that are hired have no incentive to take on 
greater case loads.

This is why Veterinarians in Canada have near instant access to MRI 
machines, while people do not.Veterinary services are free market, 
people's service are socialized.

In every case, the government balances it's books by simply denying services 
or delaying services to people.

But, of course, if a government beaurocrat denies treatment, like was done 
for my mother, the patient just dies and we all mutter "ooh, that's so sad" 
and we go on our way, secure in the fact that it wasn't our failure to pull 
out our wallets and give to help the needy, but if someone dies because they 
themselves could not afford to pay for it (as opposed to the agency budget 
not having the money), we get to get all righteous and get on our soapbox 
and yell rants and raves and excoriate those selfish bastards who are 
refusing to give Congress a few more trillion dollars a year to spend in 
ways to benefit themselves politically.

I mean, it's so easy, once the government has to decide, not you having to 
decide whether you have to sacrifice for charity, your conscience and self 
righteousness can remain fully intact - it won't be YOUR fault they died 
like my mother did, because Medicare refused treatment, right?After all, 
Medicare denies treatment to "covered" patients MORE than any other insurer, 
public or private, in some cases by more than 5 times as many denials as 
private insurance.Yet, Medicare has the largest percentage of fraudulent 
payments of any insurer, BY FAR.But, hey, if it's the government's 
responsibility, we're morally relieved of any personal responsibility for 
those who suffer for a lack, right?

Or, are you going to tell us that government can buy unlimited health care 
for everyone?

--
From: "Matt Liotta" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 4:59 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> And I guess because you know someone from Canada/Britain/France/Spain/
> etc that swears the healthcare is worse then they make it out to be
> and that the US is where everyone with money goes then it must be
> true. Let's all just ignore study after study that shows every single
> first world country has it better than the US. Sure, I'll believe Cuba
> is hiding the real story. What about the other 30+ countries that have
> better healthcare at a lower GDP cost? Are they lying too?
>
> -Matt
>
 




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Re: [WISPA] Not About Health Insurance

[MDK]

Yahh... Me too.   It's a small one.   My customers have my cell phone 
number.

We have lost more customers to home sales than any other factor ( we picked 
up some of the buyers, though, so I'm wondering if that matters ).

Some days, I really really resent that phone ringing.   I haven't had a real 
vacation in almost 3 years.

Some days, I just love what I do.Some days, I'm really tired of the 
grind.

Is that variableness the same for everyone?



--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:50 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: [WISPA] Not About Health Insurance

> I kinda thought we might need a new thread that wasn't about Health
> Insurance.
>
>
>
> Look at me, I run a wireless internet company!
>
>
>
> That's all.
>
>
>
> Robert West
>
> Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
>
> 740-335-7020
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Introducing NetCare

[MDK]

You, my friend, are an intelligent and thoughtful person.   Now, please go 
and read the disclaimer at the bottom of the original post :)



--
From: "Nathan Stooke" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:41 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Introducing NetCare

> Hello,
>
> Someone pitch me please.  You have got to be kidding me right...
>
> So our lowest package is $39.99 a month.  The max I would get is
> $16/month if I am lucky.
>
> Our lowest package use to be $59/month.  When that was the lowest
> package, we had very little tech support calls that where a waste of our
> time.  Most people that could afford the $59/month plan where somewhat
> computer savvy or at least educated enough to know when we said it was not 
> a
> problem with our service they believed us.  We then came out with a
> $39/month plan.  Yes we added more customers, but man did our support 
> calls
> go up and the dumb ones shot through the roof.  The clients became more
> unreasonable and if I had to guess take up about 80% of my companies time
> dealing with them while they only make up 35% of our customer revenue.
>
> This seems like a very bad deal for the ISP for sure.  I know I will
> not sign up for it until I have to unless they are talking about us 
> getting
> a huge and I mean huge setup fee.
>
> If you can afford to have a computer or 2 or 3, I would think you
> can afford to pay for Internet.  Shot most people on this plan would most
> likely have a better car then I drive.  It all comes down to what you want
> to spend your money.  Next they will make the ISP provide the Computer and
> all warranty work on it for free.
>
> I am all for helping the disadvantaged and we do on a case by case
> bases, but being forced to provide service to clients that I know I will 
> be
> losing money each month on does not seem right.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 11:02 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Introducing NetCare
>
> After long debate, it has been determined that the reason the US lags 
> behind
>
> other countries is that it costs too much, and people need help... so,
> here's the new solution.
>
> Introducing Federal NetCare, the program to make broadband available to
> everyone.
>
> Here's how it works:   There's a simple, 4 page application process, where
> you list your internet usage,  your computer ownership, your current
> broadband (or lack of), and the need in your household for broadband.
>
> When you sign up, the application is free, and when you get your letter of
> acceptance from the NetCare administration, you can then obtain broadband
> for a small, set fee.   While the fee may vary according to how many
> computers and your apparent need for broadband,  it will not be more than 
> $6
>
> per month, nor less than $2.Once you enroll, you may then take your
> NetCare enrollment ID to any participating internet service provider, who
> will provide you service.
>
> ISP's, this is a wonderful opportunity for you.   Here's a chance to gain 
> a
> dramatic increase in the number of customers, by advertising that you 
> accept
>
> NetCare.
>
> Enrollment is quite simple.Provide 4 years of tax filings,  and a
> complete audit of the costs of your operation using GAAP.   Or, enroll for
> NetCare Express.If you choose NetCare Express, your cost of providing
> service will be estimated according to regional averages and you will be
> compensated 60% of the estimated costs of providing broadband up to 40% of
> your published rates.   In no case will this be greater than 40% of your
> retail price.If you choose standard NetCare enrollment, you will be
> compensated according to your actual costs by multiplying your costs by a
> sliding scale of  .3 to .7, depending on the profitability of your 
> company,
> whether you hire veterans, and whether you use SEIU wage and benefit scale
> for your employees.If your company has an overall profitability 
> greater
> than 5% of gross receipts, if you do not pay union scale to your employees
> and have no veterans on staff, and have a low percentage of employees with 
> a
>
> Bachelor's degree or higher, your maximum reimbursement will be 30% of 
> your
> costs. Each item of compliance raises your reimbursement percentage by
> 10 percent.
>
> Enrollment in NetCare is currently optional, but if the rate of broadband
> acceptance by consumers doesn't reach the target goal of 90% set by 

Re: [WISPA] Introducing NetCare

[MDK]

d apply the lessons of medical services to 
internet services... And vice versa, in order to more intelligently think 
about what we want...

Is that asking too much?



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 7:17 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Introducing NetCare

> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 23:01, MDK  wrote:
>
>>
>> Introducing Federal NetCare, the program to make broadband available to
>> everyone.
>>
>>
> Broadband Internet isn't the same as BASIC HUMAN WELFARE and you know it.
> One is (literally) a matter of life-and-death, the other isn't. Please 
> quit
> making intellectually dishonest comparisons.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Wind!

[MDK]

The last time I experienced that, it was a bad cable end, where the wind had 
shaken the last 18 inches of 400 size cable - the distance from the last 
clamp to the N connector, and the N connector had literally shaken apart. 
The entire braiding had broken loose and the compression on the foam inner 
had crushed until the whole cable began creeping out of the connector.It 
was cold, and even the shrink wrap had cracked, and the tape wrapped over 
that was just slowly stretching...







--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:12 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: [WISPA] Wind!

> Windy today, supposed to have gusts up to 50mph before days end.  I was
> monitoring some backhaul links, had one bouncing from -72 to -83.  Up and
> down.  I'm thinking, uh-oh, got a grid loose someplace, better go fix it 
> now
> before it gets worse.  I go out, first end solid as can be.  I even shake
> the heck out of it, all good.  I guess the other end is messed up.  Go 
> out,
> also solid.  Look at the laptop, still bouncing.  Using pac 28dbi grids 
> with
> 411 boards R52h cards on both sides.  First grid is at 60', second at 100'
> No trees, heck I can almost see the other end with my naked and cold eye.
> It's only 4 miles out.  Link is normally -72.  Maybe junk being tossed up 
> in
> the wind?  That would be a lot ot junk for -10 drop in RSSI I would think.
>
>
>
> Just sharing.  Weird.
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert West
>
> Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
>
> 740-335-7020
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[MDK]

LOL, come on Patrick, you're not attenuated yet.Though as I recall, you 
probably wanted to attenuate me a little when we got into serious verbal 
combat over whether or not residential wireless was even an option. Of 
course that was... What?   2001? You so ticked me off I had to prove you 
wrong.   I did :)



--
From: "Patrick Leary" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:11 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

> Wireless denizens never die, we just attenuate away into oblivion.
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:02 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest
>
> MMmm... What does Hotel California and Wireless Execs have in common?
> "you can check in, but you can never leave" :-)
>
> Sounds like Matt is saying he still has vested interest to stay involved
> in RL/OR to protect his investment revenue.
>
> Matt, would you mind clarifying.When you said... "have not the left
> the business", did you mean
>
> 1) Have not left OneRing/RapidLink, and are involved in a non-employee
> capacity.
> or that
> 2) Have not left the Wireless Industry.
>
> When you said...  "I cant talk about it", did you mean
>
> 1) You cant talk about your status at OneRing/RapidLink or that
> 2) You cant talk about what you are doing now..
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Matt Liotta" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest
>
>
>>I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have
>> not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:
>>
>>> Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was
>>> with
>>> Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that
>>> really is
>>> interesting...
>>>
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of rwf
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
>>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>>> Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest
>>>
>>> Matt-
>>>
>>> Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.
>>>
>>> When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.
>>>
>>> Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I
>>> understand
>>> you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>>>
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> 
>>> 
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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> 
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>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
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>>
>> -- 
>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date:
>> 5/15/2009 6:16 AM
>>
>>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

That's because REAL broadband has to be provided by government.

Just like REAL health care.
Just like REAL education.
Just like REAL science.

Just ask the advocates of "government can make our lives a paradise" 
thinking on this list.I have "learned".

All that private enterprise stuff... that's just profitmongering at the 
expense of the people.Get the government to buy it for you, and spend 7 
times as much for it and it's virtue, caring, love, and sainthood, all in 
one package.



--
From: "Scottie Arnett" 
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:20 PM
To: 
Subject: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> < http://www.cedmagazine.com/News-Broadband-stimulus-funds-121109.aspx >
>
> "The $7.2 billion in broadband stimulus funding given out by President 
> Obama is not even close to enough to deploy truly universal broadband 
> access, according to a new study from Insight Research."
>
> Scottie
>
> Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as 
> $30.00/mth.
> Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information.
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

You are correct.   my apologies to those misrepresented.

I don't mean to say everyone's in agreement on anything.Just that I see 
this everywhere.   NOt by everyone, just that it pervades almost everything 
in life.

I still don't know who has these experiences that so amazes them at the 
competence of government.

I'd just like to know what it is I've never seen that's so widespread )



--
From: "RickG" 
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:00 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> Thats right!  And the government will provide us with REAL salaries too!
> Actually, all I'm seeing is a REAL shaft coming.
> Oh, one correction though, "thinking on this list." should be "by some
> thinking on this list." :)
> Not all here think the government is the answer.
> -RickG
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:01 AM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> That's because REAL broadband has to be provided by government.
>>
>> Just like REAL health care.
>> Just like REAL education.
>> Just like REAL science.
>>
>> Just ask the advocates of "government can make our lives a paradise"
>> thinking on this list.I have "learned".
>>
>> All that private enterprise stuff... that's just profitmongering at the
>> expense of the people.Get the government to buy it for you, and spend 
>> 7
>> times as much for it and it's virtue, caring, love, and sainthood, all in
>> one package.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Scottie Arnett" 
>> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:20 PM
>> To: 
>> Subject: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>>
>> > < http://www.cedmagazine.com/News-Broadband-stimulus-funds-121109.aspx 
>> >  >
>> >
>> > "The $7.2 billion in broadband stimulus funding given out by President
>> > Obama is not even close to enough to deploy truly universal broadband
>> > access, according to a new study from Insight Research."
>> >
>> > Scottie
>> >
>> > Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as
>> > $30.00/mth.
>> > Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> > http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >
>> 
>> >
>> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >
>> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >
>> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

And each of these is the evidence I have that I do NOT want them doing 
anything more, and I want them OUT of those things, as well.



--
From: "Tim Sylvester" 
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 5:27 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> Yes, I am amazed. Amazed by the bitching and whining about government on
> this list by people who ...
>
> - sell wireless service using spectrum "owned" by everyone and allocated 
> to
> them by the FCC for free or low cost.
> - sell access to the Internet, a network originally funded and developed 
> by
> DARPA and later funded by the National Science Foundation.
> - drive on roads funded with taxpayer dollars and maintained by the
> government.
> - sell Internet service in rural areas to farmers that receive billions in
> government subsidies per year.
> - connect CPE equipment to electrical service that was funded by the Rural
> Electric Administration.
> - use VA health services.
> - will use Medicare and Social Security when they retire.
> - call the police and fire department when they need help.
> - send their kids to public schools.
>
> Amazing.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

No, he robbed from the corrupt people of the government and gave it back to 
the people.



--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:09 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> Why not?  Robin Hood did it.
>
> Oh, wait, he robbed from the rich and gave to the poor...  This is the 
> other
> way around.  My mistake.
>
> Sorry.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 12:05 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
> I workde for an REA. One of the most wasteful companies I've ever seen.
> Private companies could do a much better job. Besides, I agree with our
> forefathers who repeatedly said that they see no reason for the government
> to take money from some to give to others. -RickG
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:11 AM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 20:42, RickG  wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Tim Sylvester > > >wrote:
>> > > - connect CPE equipment to electrical service that was funded by the
>> > Rural
>> > > Electric Administration.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Another bad deal.
>> >
>> >
>> I'm gonna have to call you out on this. How was the Rural Electrification
>> Act a bad idea? Are you going to argue that the most remote areas would
>> have
>> affordable electricity in the absence of the REA? (Keep in mind there was
>> 20-30 years of history saying exactly the opposite before that act was
>> passed. Parallels between that and some hypothetical Rural Fiber Act are
>> purely intentional.)
>>
>> David Smith
>> MVN.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

Walks on the edge of what?

For many decades, we paid HUGE per minute prices for long distance.And 
rather large sums just to have a phone, for that matter. The telcos 
innovated nothing.   They thought of "innovation" as some small thing every 
20 years.

Why?   You know the answer.   No free market.

Once finally got the door busted down, and competition entered...   Voice 
services, long distance or not, cost so little they are insignificant. 
And the range of services exploded.

Do you want the ISP business to do the same?

Just get Uncle Sam involved and it'll come to a screeching halt, all us 
small players will go away, and we'll have non evolutionary communications 
for a few decades.

Fortunately, it seems the cat is out of the bag, and we're too hard to stuff 
back in, though the Congress and FCC so badly want to.

Medicare refused to pay for services and as a result, my mother died 20 
years too soon.
The VA medical system is unresponsive.   My father died of rather pointless 
issues in a VA hospital because the care just isn't... "there".
Social Security is a scam that makes Madoff look like Robin Hood.
Government created monopolies and we suffered for decades because of them... 
still do.

I read somewhere in this thread that I or someone had claimed the free 
market will do everything.   NO, it will not.   But it will do the  best 
that can be done.   And government will do the worst.

And I'll stake my LIFE on that.



--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:55 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> But none of those would work unless they were setup as a not for profit.
> Any entity that is to serve the people AND generate profit walks on the
> edge.
>
> Bob-
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
>
> And each of these is the evidence I have that I do NOT want them doing
> anything more, and I want them OUT of those things, as well.
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Tim Sylvester" 
> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 5:27 PM
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
>> Yes, I am amazed. Amazed by the bitching and whining about government on
>> this list by people who ...
>>
>> - sell wireless service using spectrum "owned" by everyone and allocated
>> to
>> them by the FCC for free or low cost.
>> - sell access to the Internet, a network originally funded and developed
>> by
>> DARPA and later funded by the National Science Foundation.
>> - drive on roads funded with taxpayer dollars and maintained by the
>> government.
>> - sell Internet service in rural areas to farmers that receive billions 
>> in
>> government subsidies per year.
>> - connect CPE equipment to electrical service that was funded by the 
>> Rural
>> Electric Administration.
>> - use VA health services.
>> - will use Medicare and Social Security when they retire.
>> - call the police and fire department when they need help.
>> - send their kids to public schools.
>>
>> Amazing.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:

The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So 
was the REA.

Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models for 
electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations". 
Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free 
market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control the 
game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" a 
free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to use 
to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and certain 
government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still 
threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either 
extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.

We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, and 
it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until 
people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.

There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief in 
superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional appeals. 
There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator 
temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate 
socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan power 
to be derived from controlling essential services with political power. 
When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When Congress 
does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness, 
while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual 
difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob 
doing it.


--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
To: "WISPA List" ; ; 
; "WISPA Board Members List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to 
> electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and 
> cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

BTW, it WAS an interesting article.

My comment on it was that until the Seattle area governments manage to 
actually DO something... anything.   You know, accomplish at least ONE thing 
they're charged with... YOu know, like end crime, fill the potholes, educate 
the children, or any of the other 2000 things they don’t do worth a damn, 
perhaps adding yet another item for them to NOT accomplish but yet spend 
huge sums of money upon would be...  Uhhh...  Like...   Dumb?

Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they 
have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite 
decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot 
regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who 
committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own 
cafeteria worth a damn

Should run our economy, broadband, health care, and other essential 
services?

Someone... Anyone...   Somewhere...   CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME

Cripes...  I've read a million arguments about the value of MT vs Canopy VS 
blah blah blah blah...   And each of the advocates of the respective 
services or products or people can demonstrate in real life that each can 
actually DO certain things.   But yet, nobody can demonstrate to me a single 
"service" provided by the swamp dwellers on the Potomac that so inspires me 
with awe I want them to do something else for me.

Each of us reading this does SOMETHING.   Presumably more than one 
something, and presumably well.   And, before you advocate to others the 
merits of what you've done or tried or seen or witnessed, you've been all 
over it and it's convinced you...   Someone please show me.

And Jack...  That's not trolling.   It's called HONESTY and INTEGRITY.

If someone came on this list and constantly trolled the virtues of some 
entirely crap product, this list would be all over it like white on rice... 
But for some reason, a certain number of us advocate for a huge industry 
change, choreographed by Congress.Before I buy into it...   PLEASE 
DEMONSTRATE HOW GREAT THEY ARE.

Some of us recall the advocacy of another well known list member who used to 
evangelize for Alvarion.This guy, however, WENT AND SAW AND DID.   When 
he said X, you could generally accept it as reasonably believable, if he was 
talking from experience.

So, I’m not trolling.   I’m just asking... dangit, people...   SHOW ME. 
I'm just not convinced by blind faith that Congress (or state legislatures 
or county or city governments) can, in spite of a track record of utter 
incompetence, suddenly transform our industry into something fantastic.   If 
you want to advocate for it, then SHOW US.Seems danged reasonable to me.





--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
To: "WISPA List" ; ; 
; "WISPA Board Members List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to 
> electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and 
> cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
 




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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

Of course they don't.Now, can you provide me ANY evidence to back up the 
notion that government is basically utterly incompetent at most things, 
especially when it comes to providing services to us?

Of course not.Every agency, service, etc, is prime evidence for why I 
think precisely as I do.

I'm just asking people to be rational, not just "have a rosy assessment 
without evidence".



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:47 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:30, MDK  wrote:
>
>> Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they
>> have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite
>> decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot
>> regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who
>> committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own
>> cafeteria worth a damn
>>
>>
> Not everyone agrees with your pessimistic assessment of government.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

There's lots of thinking outside the box.   It is interesting... but like a 
broken record, every time someone says "we need think out side the box" the 
automatic response is "have government do it" as if that's "innovation". 
Cripes.

And yes, I'm a broken record.I watch people on this list do incredible 
due diligence as to which equipment to use,  they do entirely rational and 
reasonable things but change the subject, and instantly, they abandon every 
semblance of rationality and their eyes turn into spinning spirals and they 
start repeating...  "Government is holy and our savior, government is holy 
and our savior"  without the slightest evidence of anything except 
disastrous incompetence coming from DC and our state capitals.

What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
religion?Maybe?   I dunno.

I've repeated till I’m blue in the face, and nobody can point to a single 
iota of evidence that we should have them do squat for us...   But, the 
drumbeat continues.   Why?Drugs?   Hypnotism?   Mass delusions?What 
the heck is it?



--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:54 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> Mark,
> You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.
>
>
> I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards 
> to
> broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
> cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open 
> mind
> as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>>
>> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
>> was the REA.
>>
>> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models 
>> for
>> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
>> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
>> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
>> the
>> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" 
>> a
>> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to 
>> use
>> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and 
>> certain
>> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
>> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
>> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>>
>> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, 
>> and
>> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
>> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>>
>> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief 
>> in
>> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional 
>> appeals.
>> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
>> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
>> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
>> power
>> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
>> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When 
>> Congress
>> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
>> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
>> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
>> doing it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Brian Webster" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
>> To: "WISPA List" ; ;
>> ; "WISPA Board Members List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
>>
>> > I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared 
>> > to
>> > electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the 
>> > early
&

Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

Yeah, that's kind of true.But I'm not quite understanding your context. 
Utilities, that is, gas, electricity, etc, are generally private companies 
and get their rates set for them.   All they have to do to get a rate 
increase is prove they're losing money.

While they're always careful to show "nominal profit" in accounting, the 
business models are rarely efficient.   They could no more compete in an 
open market than you or I could flap our arms and fly.   They just play a 
game of "keep the politicians happy" and they get lifetime security AND 
profits.

You'll never see the power company using old trucks and making do with cheap 
office space.Their version of "budgeting" is "how to make sure all the 
money is spent" each year, in order to justify the rates they charge.

That game sound familiar?That's how EVERY agency operates financially. 
BTW, that's how every non-profit works too.

Why can't I play it? Just askin.





--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:04 AM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> Walks on the edge of survival.  Most non-profits rely on outside funding.
> An organization that is set up to serve the people and not make a profit 
> is
> usually a careful balance unless they have a perpetual endowment.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of MDK
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:36 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
> Walks on the edge of what?
>
> For many decades, we paid HUGE per minute prices for long distance.And
> rather large sums just to have a phone, for that matter. The telcos
> innovated nothing.   They thought of "innovation" as some small thing 
> every
> 20 years.
>
> Why?   You know the answer.   No free market.
>
> Once finally got the door busted down, and competition entered...   Voice
> services, long distance or not, cost so little they are insignificant.
> And the range of services exploded.
>
> Do you want the ISP business to do the same?
>
> Just get Uncle Sam involved and it'll come to a screeching halt, all us
> small players will go away, and we'll have non evolutionary communications
> for a few decades.
>
> Fortunately, it seems the cat is out of the bag, and we're too hard to 
> stuff
>
> back in, though the Congress and FCC so badly want to.
>
> Medicare refused to pay for services and as a result, my mother died 20
> years too soon.
> The VA medical system is unresponsive.   My father died of rather 
> pointless
> issues in a VA hospital because the care just isn't... "there".
> Social Security is a scam that makes Madoff look like Robin Hood.
> Government created monopolies and we suffered for decades because of 
> them...
>
> still do.
>
> I read somewhere in this thread that I or someone had claimed the free
> market will do everything.   NO, it will not.   But it will do the  best
> that can be done.   And government will do the worst.
>
> And I'll stake my LIFE on that.
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Robert West" 
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 1:55 PM
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
>> But none of those would work unless they were setup as a not for profit.
>> Any entity that is to serve the people AND generate profit walks on the
>> edge.
>>
>> Bob-
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of MDK
>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 4:37 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>>
>>
>> And each of these is the evidence I have that I do NOT want them doing
>> anything more, and I want them OUT of those things, as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Tim Sylvester" 
>> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 5:27 PM
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>>
>>> Yes, I am amazed. Amazed by the bitching and whining about government on
>>> this list by people who ...
>>>
>>> - sell wireles

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

[MDK]

So far as I can tell, there is no real answer to that question.

What is a "professional" and who is, and how do they become one...  Nobody 
has a good answer for.



--
From: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:53 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection

> "Professionally"? Specifically a holder of which FCC license?
>
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Matt Jenkins wrote:
>
>> According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC:
>>
 




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Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

[MDK]

The universal answer to all questions.

I had all but forgotten it...  Thanks!

now, if I could just remember

--
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:42 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice

> roflol
>
> Now THAT's funny!
>
> So long and thanks for all the fish!
> marlon
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Robert West" 
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>
>
>> 42 is the answer.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of RickG
>> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 4:01 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>>
>> Thats right!  And the government will provide us with REAL salaries too!
>> Actually, all I'm seeing is a REAL shaft coming.
>> Oh, one correction though, "thinking on this list." should be "by some
>> thinking on this list." :)
>> Not all here think the government is the answer.
>> -RickG
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:01 AM, MDK  wrote:
>>
>>> That's because REAL broadband has to be provided by government.
>>>
>>> Just like REAL health care.
>>> Just like REAL education.
>>> Just like REAL science.
>>>
>>> Just ask the advocates of "government can make our lives a paradise"
>>> thinking on this list.I have "learned".
>>>
>>> All that private enterprise stuff... that's just profitmongering at the
>>> expense of the people.Get the government to buy it for you, and 
>>> spend
>> 7
>>> times as much for it and it's virtue, caring, love, and sainthood, all 
>>> in
>>> one package.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Scottie Arnett" 
>>> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 5:20 PM
>>> To: 
>>> Subject: [WISPA] Report: Broadband stimulus funds won't suffice
>>>
>>> > < http://www.cedmagazine.com/News-Broadband-stimulus-funds-121109.aspx
>>> >  >
>>> >
>>> > "The $7.2 billion in broadband stimulus funding given out by President
>>> > Obama is not even close to enough to deploy truly universal broadband
>>> > access, according to a new study from Insight Research."
>>> >
>>> > Scottie
>>> >
>>> > Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as
>>> > $30.00/mth.
>>> > Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>> 
>> 
>>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> > http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> >
>>>
>> 
>> 
>>> >
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>>> >
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>>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>> >
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> 
>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
>> 
>> 
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
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>> Archives: http://list

[WISPA] This comes up again and again - value of network

[MDK]

There's a guy started a small network in an area I serve, but quite distant 
from me, and he's wanting to get out.

He offered to sell me his customers and his network, and then finally he 
quoted me a price for his network.Not "the customers" but just "the 
network" and the customer owns his own cpe.I buy the network and inherit 
his customers - that was the "deal".

It works out to $500 / customer.

For infrastructure, that seems... well... REALLY high to me.

It consists MOSTLY of UBNT stuff and some bandwidth controls, etc, I don't 
really understand.   It's mostly bridged, and has no public IP's, it was 
apparently NAT'd to a cable connection somewhere.

Looking at my rural deployments and the approximate cost- even of the 
solar/wind powered sites...   I'm well under $100/customer for network 
infrastructure outside of the CPE.

Am I the one way different, or is he?   Or, is this wide range  normal?



 




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