Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
From: "Paul Dwyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Wierd... killed half my own post with a bracket :) The rest should read "validates once it is removed". much appreciated :-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
Wierd... killed half my own post with a bracket :) The rest should read "validates once it is removed". —pd—
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
Little typo just before the there Al: an extra [ lang="en" ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Ric Raftis wrote:It was interesting reading your post James because it seems that TAFEs across the country may vary widely despite courses supposedly being drawn from a national based syllabus and providing national accreditation. Related to this, I reckon one of the biggest problems causing a lack of standards in Web design education is a lack of collaboration. Each facilitator/lecturor is re-inventing the wheel with activities and resources largely due to IP restrictions within their workplace. In reality, many facilitators just end up re-using the same resources that's been used for the last 5 years because on their own they don't have time to update both their own skills and the resources they use. The ironic thing is that (nearly) all the best info on Web Design topics is being shared freely by professional designers on their blogs/sites! ... I mean, with excellent sites like http://webdesignfromscratch.com/ and http://maxdesign.com.au/ published by professionals, what is the role of an educator? My take is that if lecturors and facilitators were able to collaboratively create and update flexible learning pathways from all the great free stuff out there, we'd be in a better position to help the uptake of standards in Web design education. (Plug) : 'cause of this, I've started setting up a WebDesign Wikibook over at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Web_Design Really it's just ordering and grouping all the great resources out there created by you professionals into some sort of learning pathway with ideas for activities... Feel free to contribute :) -- Michael Nelsonhttp://liveandletlearn.net/
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
On 2/13/06, Duckworth, Nigel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Stuart Sherwood wrote: > > I believe there is no "right to access services". > > Any such aberration of 'rights' that necessarily > > violates the legitimate rights of others is > > destructive to our liberty. > > I agree. There is no such thing as the "right" to force someone else to > do anything. In a proper society rights exist precisely to prevent the > initiation of physical force in social relationships. > > As this is more political philosophy than web standards, and a > passionate topic for many, I'll post my thoughts later at > nigelduckworth.com rather than here. I never wanted this to turn into a political discussion but that's where it's been taken. I thought there was no question about the legal grounds of the whole case but since there have been then I hope I can lay them to rest right here. Legally courts can and will regulate companies. It's been happening for years! We tell them the required minimum wage, the maximum working hours, we regulate overtime, we tell them to put wheelchair ramps in front of their doors, we zone their buildings, we make them get permits, we do health inspections, etc. etc. etc. We have all these laws in place to protect people. People are guaranteed freedom, not companies. No, the courts cannot force me to make my website accessible, but they can force Target Inc. Co. TM (R) to make their website accessible, just like they can force Target to do a lot of other things, because Target is not a person. It is a seperate entity. It is subject to the rule of the courts. And hopefully the courts are interpreting the laws correctly and deciding what the people want, in applying it to their decisions. I know it gets sketchy after that, but that is how things are supposed to work. We need to stop arguing with each other about the legal basis of this case and just wait and see whether or not the courts will apply the ADA to this website. It's that simple, and hopefully we can now get to what we should be discussing here, that is, the technical reasons why Target.com is not accessible and identifying other company websites that are also making the same mistakes. That's all. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
thx for the link... I've had trouble before with three-column layouts; Will study the code -- Sincerely, Derek E. Land, Creative Director email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mobile: 1-585-880-6513 the ideastreet media www.theideastreet.com 1-585-728-2748 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
Christian Montoya wrote: Yes, but if you don't use HTML 4.01 Strict, you will get quirks mode from some browsers. I think that's what Ric was wondering. Eh, not on that page - but if it's important, here you go: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/holy-gruel/juanpercent-strict.htm -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
On 2/13/06, Al Sparber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: "Ric Raftis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Al Sparber wrote: > > > >> We're compiling a folder of CSS layouts. Feel free to play. > >> There'll be more. > >> > >> http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/holy-gruel/juanpercent.htm > >> > >> > > OK, I'll be the silly bugger who asks. Why is the layout using a > > HTML 4.01 Transitional DTD? Just curious. > > Because I don't see a practical purpose in using anything else :-) > It's a sparse page, easily converted to xhtml syntax if one desires > that. > Yes, but if you don't use HTML 4.01 Strict, you will get quirks mode from some browsers. I think that's what Ric was wondering. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
From: "Ric Raftis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Al Sparber wrote: We're compiling a folder of CSS layouts. Feel free to play. There'll be more. http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/holy-gruel/juanpercent.htm OK, I'll be the silly bugger who asks. Why is the layout using a HTML 4.01 Transitional DTD? Just curious. Because I don't see a practical purpose in using anything else :-) It's a sparse page, easily converted to xhtml syntax if one desires that. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
Al Sparber wrote: We're compiling a folder of CSS layouts. Feel free to play. There'll be more. http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/holy-gruel/juanpercent.htm OK, I'll be the silly bugger who asks. Why is the layout using a HTML 4.01 Transitional DTD? Just curious. Regards, Ric ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
thx for the link... I've had trouble before with three-column layouts; Will study the code -- Sincerely, Derek E. Land, Creative Director email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mobile: 1-585-880-6513 the ideastreet media www.theideastreet.com 1-585-728-2748 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] CSS Holy Gruel
We're compiling a folder of CSS layouts. Feel free to play. There'll be more. http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/holy-gruel/juanpercent.htm -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Man you guys are tough! I've only had 3 hours sleep! I was just trying to not flood the list with personal emails! Thanks for the kind words James, as always, you know I'd love to come back into TAFE to rally the troops! > -Original Message- > From: James Gollan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:09 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education > > > Mark Harris wrote: > > Terrence Wood wrote: > >> Herrod, Lisa wrote: > >>> Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Web design > >>> education". > >> What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone > else sent me > >> one of those recently. > >> > >> > > Generally, it means someone is using Outlook on an > MS-Exchange server > > as their mail set up. Exchange allows you to recall > messages on your > > local server if the recipient hasn't opened it yet. It doesn't work > > outside your local environment though. > Of course it has a secondary effect of causing great interest in the > offending email, subjecting it to a level of scrutiny that it would > otherwise not enjoy! > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Mark Harris wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Herrod, Lisa wrote: Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Web design education". What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone else sent me one of those recently. Generally, it means someone is using Outlook on an MS-Exchange server as their mail set up. Exchange allows you to recall messages on your local server if the recipient hasn't opened it yet. It doesn't work outside your local environment though. Of course it has a secondary effect of causing great interest in the offending email, subjecting it to a level of scrutiny that it would otherwise not enjoy! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Ric Raftis wrote: James Gollan wrote: I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions are still teaching table based design. As an educator I feel I am in a great position to make a difference at a 'grass roots' level. Students studying web design at our college (Ultimo TAFE) are exposed to about as much evangelism as they can take! .. It was interesting reading your post James because it seems that TAFEs across the country may vary widely despite courses supposedly being drawn from a national based syllabus and providing national accreditation. As I mentioned - we work of syllabus documents based on industry developed training packages that are often close to 10 years old. In IT that is an absurd situation. If the individual is working in isolation based on these documents it would be possible (and 'valid' from an assessment point of view) to deliver frames and table-based layout. We typically stretch or reinterpret the outcomes to make them relevant to current industry practice, but for the aforementioned reasons there is no guarantee that each TAFE will deliver the same content - even if you do identical modules. TAFE is working reasonably hard on the concept of assessment validation - the goal being that every student will be trained to to the same level and assessed to this level regardless of college location. This has been difficult to achieve without using centralised assessments - an expensive and cumbersome approach with many problems of its own, including a real lack of flexibility. I am sorry to hear that your experience of TAFE was less that optimal, but it is great to hear that they were willing to listen, and that you achieved what you wanted through the course. In many ways this is part of the education process, with your tutor taking on the role of a facilitator for your learning rather than the more classical lecturer/teacher role. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
FWIW. Here's an interesting item. Using the Syllabus Finder at the Center for History & New Media, I searched for "web design." The search returned about 189,000 results. As I looked through the first couple of pages of listings, I was struck by the range of departments in the web design ed biz and the number of web standards folks. Perhaps things are not as bad as first impressions might suggest. If you're interested, Syllabus Finder is available at: http://chnm.gmu.edu/tools/syllabi/ Best, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History & Art History Associate Director Center for History & New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net On Feb 13, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Chris Taylor wrote: A large university here in the UK offers web design courses. But I don't hold out much hope for the future when they have things like this in their syllabus: "Without the use of tables, all web pages would have to be presented in purely linear form. Many creative uses of the screen would be impossible to achieve. Although tables are a little trickier than other effects used in basic web design, it is mainly a matter of remembering that HTML's first purpose is to structure the page; tables are just an extension of this basic idea. Once you have mastered the basics, you can get some very sophisticated effects with table tags." (Taken from http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acom/webdesign/materials/lesson4.html) Has anyone attended this course? Is it really as bad as all that? To what extent can students do it "the right way" without being penalised from straying from the Official Course Documentation? And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. Chris Taylor www.stillbreathing.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible drill-down into a nested list
Ian Anderson: I think this would be immensely bad design for screen reader users. This is a site map. What you may be missing is that too many links are the bane of a screen reader user's life. They rely on using links as a kind of binary tree to navigate the site - the last thing they benefit from is hearing links again that they have already discarded as not of interest. They go back much more than sighted users in order to find a link they heard before. The other interesting thing is that screen reader users build a mental map of a site that is nothing like the real architecture, based on the links they hear. If every link is on every page, all pages sound the same to them, because about half of a user's time on each page is spent listing the links. When the links on each page are mostly unique, screen reader users perform better in tasks. This is great, I'd really like to send this as a reply every time someone asks about dropdown menus ;-) The lack of uniqueness in link labels and too much navigation (e.g. the site map on every page) affects all users not just screen reader users. I recently completed user testing for a navigation system with 165+ links in it. Most tasks were eventually completed though not without error(s). We observed a lot of backtracking, confusion over similar (i.e not unique enough) labels and false positives (where users were confident the task was complete but they were not in the prescribed location). Most users requested additional contextual information (e.g. tooltips, or deks). So indications are, IMO (based on this, and my recent reading of Spool on global navigation) that less global navigation, and more contextual navigation is generally better for content rich sites. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/13/06, James Gollan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Chris Taylor wrote: And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions are still teaching table based design. Yes, we know. I've told the list before that the classes I take at Cornell teach standards based design with CSS, and it's exciting to know that all my peers are standardistas like me. But it is very easy for professors to go against change and keep teaching the same methods... and if the sites they use are Google-Amazon-Ebay, they might not even notice that anything has changed. Absolutely agree that the institution can provide a fairly protected environment for those who want to use it that way - the inertia generated by tenure and impending retirement is often insurmountable! Encouraging student feedback seems to be one of the only ways of change in this situation. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Terrence Wood wrote: Herrod, Lisa wrote: Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Web design education". What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone else sent me one of those recently. Generally, it means someone is using Outlook on an MS-Exchange server as their mail set up. Exchange allows you to recall messages on your local server if the recipient hasn't opened it yet. It doesn't work outside your local environment though. I think Lisa sent what was meant to be a private message to the list, because the default reply-to is to the list. Lisa was probably so busy being usable, she forgot to validate her mail ;-) cheers Mark Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
It's an Outlook feature to recall emails once they've been sent, only useful if everyone in your organisation is running Outlook though. Terrence Wood wrote: Herrod, Lisa wrote: Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Web design education". What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone else sent me one of those recently. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] [IE 6 Problem] -Container will not align centre to the page.
Thank you Hunt, I hadn't even noticed I included that xml tag. I was playing around with SVG shapes half of year ago and I grabbed the Doctype from that document without thought. Thank you for the reminder. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt Sent: February 13, 2006 9:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] [IE 6 Problem] -Container will not align centre to the page. Omen King wrote: > I have gone about creating this site for a class I have. > I have been using in the past XHTML 1.0 strict but the doctype we must use > is XHTML 1.1 Strict and it is giving me trouble. Firstly, XHTML 1.1 Strict doesn't exist, it's just XHTML 1.1. Don't confuse it with XHTML 1.0 Strict/Transitional/Frameset, there are no such variants for XHTML 1.1. Secondly, is your teacher aware of the fact that real world browsers don't support XHTML 1.1 properly, and that some don't support it at all? Most notably, no version of IE supports it - anyone who says (or tries to show) otherwise is lying. Perhaps my recent article would be an enlightening read for both you and your teacher. http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners > I have already know the problem is some kind of rule issue. I am researching > the problem currently but if anyone already knows the anwser it would be > greatly appericated. > > Please view this page both in IE 6 and Firefox. > > http://www.monsterboxproductions.com/hwk/thedigitallibary/index.html It appears to work in Firefox, IE7 and Opera just fine (though, it really only "works" in IE thinks it's receiving HTML, not XHTML - it's a MIME type issue). I don't have IE6 available to test in without uninstalling IE7. However, you need to be aware that using the XML declaration triggers quirks mode in IE6 (they fixed that bug in IE7) and this may be the cause of your immediate problem. Remove this line: To fix any other problems correctly, it requires using the correct MIME type. The easiest way is to change the file extension to .xht or .xhtml and add this line to your .htaccess file on your server (create it if you don't have one, Google for ".htaccess files" for more info) AddType application/xhtml+xml .xht .xhtml (After doing this, you won't be able to view it in IE, only Firefox, Opera and other descent modern browsers, but you will learn a valuable lesson none-the-less) -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Herrod, Lisa wrote: Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Web design education". What does that mean and where does it come from? Someone else sent me one of those recently. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Colour Contrast Analyser - Firefox Extension 0.2
Gez Lemon, of Juicy Studio has released a Colour Contrast Analyser - Firefox Extension 0.2 [http://juicystudio.com/article/colour-contrast-analyser-firefox-extension.php] The Colour Contrast Analyser Firefox extension lists colour combinations used in the document in a table that summarises the foreground colour, background colour, luminosity contrast ratio, and the colour difference and brightness difference used in the algorithm suggested in the 26th of April 2000 working draft for Accessibility Evaluation and Repair Tools (AERT). Each element is also listed with its parent elements, and class and id attribute values when specified to make it easier to locate the elements. with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant vision australia - information & library service 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.accessibleinfo.org.au | www.wat-c.org Download the Web Accessibility Toolbar [http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ais/toolbar/] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] print style question
HI All I've got a nagging issue. It's on a local directory, so I can't share the url. I've got a page with two large tables. Each is in its own container div. I'd like to get the second table to print on its own page. I've already made both containing divs block level and applied the page-break-before style to the second table. I've also tried clear:both and float:none to avoid any descending behaviors. Does anyone have a suggestion for finding the printing conflict? Thanks Ted Drake Front-end Engineer Yahoo! Tech ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
At least we know now that that class "designing with tables" is not being taught as we're speaking..."Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Minh D. Tran wrote:> Great! Please keep us up to date as I am very interested in hearing > about it. Also, let me know if there's anything I can do. Thank you.I got an auto-reply telling me he left Leads to work at Manchester Uni. I forwarded the email to the two alternate contacts the email mentioned.Incidentally, the (C) at the bottom of the pages is 2004...this may or may not be old content that just hasn't been removed.P-- Patrick H. Lauke__re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.ukhttp://redux.deviantart.com__Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Forcehttp://webstandards.org/__**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list & getting help** Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars.
RE: Recall: [WSG] Web design education
> From: Herrod, Lisa > > Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Web > design education". Lisa Herrod is funny :-) -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
On 2/13/06, James Gollan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Chris Taylor wrote: > > And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and > > accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy > > towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the > > recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. > > > I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions > are still teaching table based design. Yes, we know. I've told the list before that the classes I take at Cornell teach standards based design with CSS, and it's exciting to know that all my peers are standardistas like me. But it is very easy for professors to go against change and keep teaching the same methods... and if the sites they use are Google-Amazon-Ebay, they might not even notice that anything has changed. And, unfortunately, a professor like this one has far more influence than any big-name-design-firm. Far more. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
James Gollan wrote: I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions are still teaching table based design. As an educator I feel I am in a great position to make a difference at a 'grass roots' level. Students studying web design at our college (Ultimo TAFE) are exposed to about as much evangelism as they can take! .. It was interesting reading your post James because it seems that TAFEs across the country may vary widely despite courses supposedly being drawn from a national based syllabus and providing national accreditation. I recently completed a Certificate IV in Web Design at the Bendigo TAFE (BRIT) and my experience was anything but what you describe. Students were permitted to design their final assignment, a total web site of their choosing, in any layout they wished, even Frames! Yes, they were expected to validate both their xhtml and css, but only to low levels. Tables seemed to be the most popular layout used. Personally, I did the course to learn more about css layouts and I achieved this. Some help was achieved through contact with one particular lecturer who was enthusiastic, but out of date and teaching deprecated tags at times. However, to his credit, he was willing to do the research and admit his shortcomings. Most of my learning regarding structure of css sites came from active participation in a forum at www.htmlforums.com where the moderators are certainly evangelists for css layouts. Regards, Ric ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Recall: [WSG] Web design education
Herrod, Lisa would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Web design education". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Web design education
:) good work Jimmy G, and thanks for the good press! looking forward to coming out there... you know if there was ever a chance to teach the usability I'd jump at it! lisa > -Original Message- > From: James Gollan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2006 8:00 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; Russ Weakly > Subject: Re: [WSG] Web design education > > > Chris Taylor wrote: > > And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and > > accessibility evangelists to do about the continued > ingorance and apathy > > towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's > hope that the > > recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. > > > > > I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions > are still teaching table based design. As an educator I feel > I am in a > great position to make a difference at a 'grass roots' level. > Students > studying web design at our college (Ultimo TAFE) are exposed > to about as > much evangelism as they can take! There is a brief mention of > tables for > design, but as a primer for what they may find themselves > working with > in industry. Every site that they design should validate to a strict > doctype (they choose between HTML and XHMTL after being > presented with > the arguments for and against) and use CSS for all aspects of layout. > They spend an hour and a half per week studying usability and > accessibility, they have access to multiple browsers, > operating systems, > and even JAWS (until recently :( ). First lesson they are directed to > join this list! > Past teachers have been such luminaries as Lisa Herrod and > Roger Hudson, > and, at the end of semester when they are dizzy from this barrage of > evangalism, they get a good talking to from people such as > Russ Weakley, > Lindsay Evans, Peter Ottery, Lisa Herrod and Roger Hudson (not all on > the same bill, unfortunately). > I know of other TAFE's (particularly Blue Mountains) that > have a similar > approach toward standards. > Unfortunately it often comes down to the teachers at the educational > institution to promote this viewpoint, as syllabus documents are > normally vague and hopelessly out of date. We are currently > working of a > training package that was first developed around 1997 (may have been > 1999, but hell, it's old). It mentions tables for layout etc. > I am sure that other institutions would be taking a similar > approach to > web design as us If not, hopefully the word will get out and > the course > will either drop off or modify its content. We do have > mailing lists for > educators in TAFE to try to disseminate the knowledge and facilitate > discussion. > I agree that there can be an apathy in educational > institutions - often > as a result of the institutional structure - but it is not > necessarily > the case. > Just wanted to point that out ;) > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Minh D. Tran wrote: Great! Please keep us up to date as I am very interested in hearing about it. Also, let me know if there's anything I can do. Thank you. I got an auto-reply telling me he left Leads to work at Manchester Uni. I forwarded the email to the two alternate contacts the email mentioned. Incidentally, the (C) at the bottom of the pages is 2004...this may or may not be old content that just hasn't been removed. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Great! Please keep us up to date as I am very interested in hearing about it. Also, let me know if there's anything I can do. Thank you."Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Minh D. Tran wrote:> One of our responsibility as a member of the WSG is to "Promote "web > standards" within the development community," so here is our chance. If > we don't do anything about this, than that totally defeats the purpose > of WSG's existence. Where do we start?Well, as a start, I emailed Drew (course leader on that particular course) pointing at the web-based mail archive for this list. Small moves, small moves.P-- Patrick H. Lauke__re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.ukhttp://redux.deviantart.com__Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Forcehttp://webstandards.org/__**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list & getting help** Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Jude Robinson wrote: Only companies/institutions are required to comply with accessibility legislation (in the UK, and US as far as I'm aware). Accessibility legislation does not require individuals to comply with it, rightly so. I thought individuals owned and worked in companies... Companies might legally be entities, but then neither companies nor law exist outside the ideas and actions of individual men. Please respond off list. -- Regards, *Stuart Sherwood* RE-ENTITY DESIGN ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Chris Taylor wrote: And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. I feel it is worth pointing out that not all educational institutions are still teaching table based design. As an educator I feel I am in a great position to make a difference at a 'grass roots' level. Students studying web design at our college (Ultimo TAFE) are exposed to about as much evangelism as they can take! There is a brief mention of tables for design, but as a primer for what they may find themselves working with in industry. Every site that they design should validate to a strict doctype (they choose between HTML and XHMTL after being presented with the arguments for and against) and use CSS for all aspects of layout. They spend an hour and a half per week studying usability and accessibility, they have access to multiple browsers, operating systems, and even JAWS (until recently :( ). First lesson they are directed to join this list! Past teachers have been such luminaries as Lisa Herrod and Roger Hudson, and, at the end of semester when they are dizzy from this barrage of evangalism, they get a good talking to from people such as Russ Weakley, Lindsay Evans, Peter Ottery, Lisa Herrod and Roger Hudson (not all on the same bill, unfortunately). I know of other TAFE's (particularly Blue Mountains) that have a similar approach toward standards. Unfortunately it often comes down to the teachers at the educational institution to promote this viewpoint, as syllabus documents are normally vague and hopelessly out of date. We are currently working of a training package that was first developed around 1997 (may have been 1999, but hell, it's old). It mentions tables for layout etc. I am sure that other institutions would be taking a similar approach to web design as us If not, hopefully the word will get out and the course will either drop off or modify its content. We do have mailing lists for educators in TAFE to try to disseminate the knowledge and facilitate discussion. I agree that there can be an apathy in educational institutions - often as a result of the institutional structure - but it is not necessarily the case. Just wanted to point that out ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
On 2/13/06 3:23 PM, "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Minh D. Tran wrote: >> One of our responsibility as a member of the WSG is to "Promote "web >> standards" within the development community," so here is our chance. If >> we don't do anything about this, than that totally defeats the purpose >> of WSG's existence. Where do we start? Any chance their course description has just not been updated since 1995? Just going with the benefit of the doubt, you know? -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Minh D. Tran wrote: One of our responsibility as a member of the WSG is to "Promote "web standards" within the development community," so here is our chance. If we don't do anything about this, than that totally defeats the purpose of WSG's existence. Where do we start? Well, as a start, I emailed Drew (course leader on that particular course) pointing at the web-based mail archive for this list. Small moves, small moves. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
One of our responsibility as a member of the WSG is to "Promote "web standards" within the development community," so here is our chance. If we don't do anything about this, than that totally defeats the purpose of WSG's existence. Where do we start?Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Minh D. Tran wrote:> I personally believe as "Accessibility Evangelists," part of our > responsibilities is to bring this to their attention. These are web > designing instructors, they are teaching more and more people to design > the "tables" way, which is the exact way that we are trying eliminate.> This is the exact same reason for my main argument in my thread on Calling for a scalable business case for web standards for small business. My point was, and still is, that groups like WaSP and WSG need to take more of an advocacy role on in the larger community. Yes it makes sense to convert the people who have gone through these programs but if business demanded that sites be standards based and accessible then schools who teach otherwise will stop graduating people into nested table hell.Don't tell me to join a WSG in my local area. Don't tell me that we should just keep doing the work. We need to get up on our soap boxes and convert business, thought leaders and educators that standards matter and that building a broken web is bad for everyone.I know that there are members of WaSP who are trying to get educators on board but there is still a bunch of people out there who are ex graphic designers or visual developers who know only Dreamweaver or StopDead (GoLive) who are asked to teach because they have won some prize or worked for a big company.All the best,Jay-- Jay GilmoreDeveloper / ConsultantSmashingRed Web & MarketingP] 902.529.0651E] [EMAIL PROTECTED]U] http://www.smashingred.comB] http://www.smashingred.com/blog**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list & getting help**__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Stuart Sherwood wrote: Any such aberration of 'rights' that necessarily violates the legitimate rights of others is destructive to our liberty. True when the "others" are people. But we're discussing a scenario where the "other" is a company, and that scenario has radically different requirements for the defense of individual liberty. Only companies/institutions are required to comply with accessibility legislation (in the UK, and US as far as I'm aware). Accessibility legislation does not require individuals to comply with it, rightly so. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Minh D. Tran wrote: I personally believe as "Accessibility Evangelists," part of our responsibilities is to bring this to their attention. These are web designing instructors, they are teaching more and more people to design the "tables" way, which is the exact way that we are trying eliminate. This is the exact same reason for my main argument in my thread on Calling for a scalable business case for web standards for small business. My point was, and still is, that groups like WaSP and WSG need to take more of an advocacy role on in the larger community. Yes it makes sense to convert the people who have gone through these programs but if business demanded that sites be standards based and accessible then schools who teach otherwise will stop graduating people into nested table hell. Don't tell me to join a WSG in my local area. Don't tell me that we should just keep doing the work. We need to get up on our soap boxes and convert business, thought leaders and educators that standards matter and that building a broken web is bad for everyone. I know that there are members of WaSP who are trying to get educators on board but there is still a bunch of people out there who are ex graphic designers or visual developers who know only Dreamweaver or StopDead (GoLive) who are asked to teach because they have won some prize or worked for a big company. All the best, Jay -- Jay Gilmore Developer / Consultant SmashingRed Web & Marketing P] 902.529.0651 E] [EMAIL PROTECTED] U] http://www.smashingred.com B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
I personally believe as "Accessibility Evangelists," part of our responsibilities is to bring this to their attention. These are web designing instructors, they are teaching more and more people to design the "tables" way, which is the exact way that we are trying eliminate.Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's a major reason why I didn't go to university, you don't learn nuffink(sic. :) ) useful. and have to pay around £10,000 for the privilegeStephenOn 13 Feb 2006, at 15:24, Chris Taylor wrote:> A large university here in the UK offers web design courses. But I > don't> hold out much hope for the future when they have things like this in> their syllabus:>> "Without the use of tables, all web pages would have to be > presented in> purely linear form. Many creative uses of the screen would be > impossible> to achieve. Although tables are a little trickier than other effects> used in basic web design, it is mainly a matter of remembering that> HTML's first purpose is to structure the page; tables are just an> extension of this basic idea. Once you have mastered the basics, > you can> get some very sophisticated effects with table tags.">> (Taken from> http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acom/webdesign/materials/lesson4.html)>> Has anyone attended this course? Is it really as bad as all that? To> what extent can students do it "the right way" without being penalised> from straying from the Official Course Documentation?>> And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and> accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and > apathy> towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that > the> recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause.>> Chris Taylor> www.stillbreathing.co.uk> **> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help> **>**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list & getting help** Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Hello, On 13 Feb 2006 at 15:24, Chris Taylor wrote: > "Without the use of tables, all web pages would have to be presented in > purely linear form. thanks about such a sequence (or joke?). Ok, I read the same on the 'lesson4.html', there this is not a joke. But it's interesting to read such a statement 2006 (or 2004). I think, we should send them a lot of links with pages created without any table and showing more non-linear elements. Tables are excellent showing tabular data. Regards, Juergen Auer Jürgen Auer, http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ Web-Datenbanken zum Mieten Friedenstr. 37, 10 249 Berlin Tel.: (030) 420 20 060 Fax: (030) 420 19 819 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
That's a major reason why I didn't go to university, you don't learn nuffink(sic. :) ) useful. and have to pay around £10,000 for the privilege Stephen On 13 Feb 2006, at 15:24, Chris Taylor wrote: A large university here in the UK offers web design courses. But I don't hold out much hope for the future when they have things like this in their syllabus: "Without the use of tables, all web pages would have to be presented in purely linear form. Many creative uses of the screen would be impossible to achieve. Although tables are a little trickier than other effects used in basic web design, it is mainly a matter of remembering that HTML's first purpose is to structure the page; tables are just an extension of this basic idea. Once you have mastered the basics, you can get some very sophisticated effects with table tags." (Taken from http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acom/webdesign/materials/lesson4.html) Has anyone attended this course? Is it really as bad as all that? To what extent can students do it "the right way" without being penalised from straying from the Official Course Documentation? And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. Chris Taylor www.stillbreathing.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Chris, I've conducted several courses in CSS at a local community college where CSS-based designs are emphasized. The faculty and students embrace Web Standards, and understand the inherit value of using standard's technologies. All is not lost :) Respectfully yours, Mario S. Cisneros > A large university here in the UK offers web design courses. But I don't > hold out much hope for the future when they have things like this in > their syllabus: > > "Without the use of tables, all web pages would have to be presented in > purely linear form. Many creative uses of the screen would be impossible > to achieve. Although tables are a little trickier than other effects > used in basic web design, it is mainly a matter of remembering that > HTML's first purpose is to structure the page; tables are just an > extension of this basic idea. Once you have mastered the basics, you can > get some very sophisticated effects with table tags." > > (Taken from > http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acom/webdesign/materials/lesson4.html) > > Has anyone attended this course? Is it really as bad as all that? To > what extent can students do it "the right way" without being penalised > from straying from the Official Course Documentation? > > And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and > accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy > towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the > recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. > > Chris Taylor > www.stillbreathing.co.uk > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Web design education
A large university here in the UK offers web design courses. But I don't hold out much hope for the future when they have things like this in their syllabus: "Without the use of tables, all web pages would have to be presented in purely linear form. Many creative uses of the screen would be impossible to achieve. Although tables are a little trickier than other effects used in basic web design, it is mainly a matter of remembering that HTML's first purpose is to structure the page; tables are just an extension of this basic idea. Once you have mastered the basics, you can get some very sophisticated effects with table tags." (Taken from http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acom/webdesign/materials/lesson4.html) Has anyone attended this course? Is it really as bad as all that? To what extent can students do it "the right way" without being penalised from straying from the Official Course Documentation? And, a larger question for us all: what are we as web standards and accessibility evangelists to do about the continued ingorance and apathy towards this vital subject, especially in academia? Let's hope that the recent Target website court case in the US highlights the cause. Chris Taylor www.stillbreathing.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] [IE 6 Problem] -Container will not align centre to the page.
Omen King wrote: I have gone about creating this site for a class I have. I have been using in the past XHTML 1.0 strict but the doctype we must use is XHTML 1.1 Strict and it is giving me trouble. Firstly, XHTML 1.1 Strict doesn't exist, it's just XHTML 1.1. Don't confuse it with XHTML 1.0 Strict/Transitional/Frameset, there are no such variants for XHTML 1.1. Secondly, is your teacher aware of the fact that real world browsers don't support XHTML 1.1 properly, and that some don't support it at all? Most notably, no version of IE supports it - anyone who says (or tries to show) otherwise is lying. Perhaps my recent article would be an enlightening read for both you and your teacher. http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners I have already know the problem is some kind of rule issue. I am researching the problem currently but if anyone already knows the anwser it would be greatly appericated. Please view this page both in IE 6 and Firefox. http://www.monsterboxproductions.com/hwk/thedigitallibary/index.html It appears to work in Firefox, IE7 and Opera just fine (though, it really only "works" in IE thinks it's receiving HTML, not XHTML - it's a MIME type issue). I don't have IE6 available to test in without uninstalling IE7. However, you need to be aware that using the XML declaration triggers quirks mode in IE6 (they fixed that bug in IE7) and this may be the cause of your immediate problem. Remove this line: To fix any other problems correctly, it requires using the correct MIME type. The easiest way is to change the file extension to .xht or .xhtml and add this line to your .htaccess file on your server (create it if you don't have one, Google for ".htaccess files" for more info) AddType application/xhtml+xml .xht .xhtml (After doing this, you won't be able to view it in IE, only Firefox, Opera and other descent modern browsers, but you will learn a valuable lesson none-the-less) -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
Stuart Sherwood wrote: > I believe there is no "right to access services". > Any such aberration of 'rights' that necessarily > violates the legitimate rights of others is > destructive to our liberty. I agree. There is no such thing as the "right" to force someone else to do anything. In a proper society rights exist precisely to prevent the initiation of physical force in social relationships. As this is more political philosophy than web standards, and a passionate topic for many, I'll post my thoughts later at nigelduckworth.com rather than here. I also think a proper case can't be made (on either side) in email soundbites -- but maybe that's just me. I've heard arguments on the other side but would be happy to hear more, if you have the inclination please send thoughts/objections/hate mail to nduckworth[at]gmail[.]com Thanks, over and out. -Nigel ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] [IE 6 Problem] -Container will not align centre to the page.
Hello WSG,I have gone about creating this site for a class I have. I have been using in the past XHTML 1.0 strict but the doctype we must use is XHTML 1.1 Strict and it is giving me trouble. The overall design would not be something I would use as a design but my hands are tied because of the assignment restrictions. I have already know the problem is some kind of rule issue. I am researching the problem currently but if anyone already knows the anwser it would be greatly appericated.Please view this page both in IE 6 and Firefox. http://www.monsterboxproductions.com/hwk/thedigitallibary/index.htmlThank you for reading.
[WSG] Feedback on ISO Standard Version of Access For All Metadata
Original Message Subject:reminder about new standard... Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:12:50 -0700 From: ozewai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: ozewai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mailing List Information, including unsubscription instructions are located at the end of this message) Time is running out for us with the ISO standard version of AccessForAll metadata. This is just a reminder that you could help by testing our forms and commenting - please --- See http://dublincore.org/accessibilitywiki/DiscussionOfFcd Other's comments are also available for you to peruse on that page. Liddy http://www.ozewai.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible drill-down into a nested list
Paul Novitski wrote: Tell me if this would be a better scenario: When you select a menu item, the page reloads with a set of breadcrumbs that spells out the history of selected menu items, such as: I think you are correct to be concerned about the issue, but this may not be the optimal solution. If you consider the requirements of a screen reader user, their task is one of wading through immense amounts of irrelevant stuff trying to find the thing of interest at that moment. What's of most interest at the moment you're describing is hearing the *new* options that are now available. The breadcrumb (hierarchical location) is also hugely appreciated as a means of keeping track of where they are in the site. From user testing we've done with screen reader users, the most important thing is that the page title and main heading on the page are descriptive. The page title is read first as the page loads, and then the behaviour depends on the screen reader in use. JAWS will typically skip over stuff that has been seen before, and try to jump to the first new content on the page. If the page title and heading don't change, this can be very destructive for these users, as they start trying to backtrack or reload the page to see what has gone wrong. In the scenario you describe, is the page more or less identical except that a new submenu has appeared in the navigation area? I think this would be very harmful UI for screen reader users. The chances of them locating the submenu are remote, and the chances of them realising that it represents hierarchically subordinate options are too. The best solution for these users may be to create menu pages that contain the submenu links as primary content. Ensuring that navigation links come after content links in the source order may also be very beneficial, as these "downward" or "onward" links are much more likely to be what the user is looking for. Somewhere else on the page, perhaps last in the markup, would be the full menu including all menu items at each selected level. A "jump to navigation" link early on the page could get you there quickly. I think this would be immensely bad design for screen reader users. This is a site map. What you may be missing is that too many links are the bane of a screen reader user's life. They rely on using links as a kind of binary tree to navigate the site - the last thing they benefit from is hearing links again that they have already discarded as not of interest. They go back much more than sighted users in order to find a link they heard before. The other interesting thing is that screen reader users build a mental map of a site that is nothing like the real architecture, based on the links they hear. If every link is on every page, all pages sound the same to them, because about half of a user's time on each page is spent listing the links. When the links on each page are mostly unique, screen reader users perform better in tasks. So, have a site map linked off each page, but don't include extra links on every page - these are bad for screen reader users, not helpful, in my opinion Hope this helps Cheers ian -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets & links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Title: Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org I am currently out of the office and will return Wednesday 15th February. For any urgent enquiries please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Felicity Farr National Project Officer Flexible Learning Toolboxes e - Works | Level 25 | 150 Lonsdale St | Melbourne Vic 3000 | t [03] 9661 8709 | f [03] 9661 8799 | e [EMAIL PROTECTED] | w www.eworks.edu.au
