[ZION] The Descent of Man
If God is a man, and he existed before the world, and he created the world, how could mankind have evolved on this planet? I mean, how did God become a man? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with G Gap
At 01:24 AM 11/13/2003 +, Uncle Tom, the Gapper wrote: Usually one is disturbed by widening gaps and happier about narrowing gaps. But sometimes it's the other way around. Till has been ever mindful of the widening gap between those who choose good and those who choose evil. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Old Jeeps
At 10:17 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Grampa Bill wrote: Grampa Bill comments: Not likely. Early Alzheimers predominently afftects short term memory... not interesting life memories that happened years ago. They say that as you age, your memory is the second thing to go. Unfortunately, I can't remember what the first thing is. Also can't remember if I've used this line before in this forum. Love y'all, Only about a hundred times! just kidding Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 10:58 PM 11/12/2003 -0700, Sir Lew wrote: At 01:16 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote: Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. From my understanding and as Brother McConkie indicates This final great battle, in which evil spirits, mortal men, and resurrected personages all participate, will be the end of war as far as this earth is concernedI believe that the final battle includes these evil spirits or in other words the 1/3 of the host of heaven that was kicked out with Satan. If this is the case it surely would be more than millions. Wow, what a huge rumble! Get's the old Celtic/Norse blood riling just to think about it. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Punch their lights out
Ron, And yet it is the ACLU that has pushed for access on the sidewalks around Temple Square. Interesting that their disgust motivates the ACLU into pushing for even more disgusting civil liberties, eh? I'm all for freedom of speech, but I also believe that personal property rights need to be respected, as well. The Church has offered a generous trade to the city of 2 acres land in exchange for the rights of access, yet the ACLU continues to fight it. I think your friends who are disgusted do not protest enough. Or at least do not protest enough in the direction they should. In my opinion, the terrible events that antis are doing in front of the temple are just as much the fault of the ACLU as of the Antis doing it. They are often the ennablers of such wicked and sordid craft. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Ron:I know Doug Robinson is not dense, but it seems to me that he should have figured out long ago that in these hyper-media times John Wayne types would get more attention than the meek and mild of the world. The fallout from the demonstrations around Temple Square this Fall has been interesting. A high school classmate of mine, an ACLU lawyer, was absolutely disgusted by the vile protestors and so were many, most of her colleagues. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Descent of Man
John, Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what personal/lineage histories of small groups are. As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still occur throughout the rest of the world. Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first man, and those before him were not counted as in the population of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then man shows up in the Garden. As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which one do we fully rely upon? Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by Brigham Young? More speculation! Gary K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man If God is a man, and he existed before the world, and he created the world, how could mankind have evolved on this planet? I mean, how did God become a man? 1. If anyone knew the definitive answer to your first question, they would be worth billions. 2. If they knew the answer to the second question, they probably would be, ah, God. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Punch their lights out Ron, And yet it is the ACLU that has pushed for access on the sidewalks around Temple Square. Interesting that their disgust motivates the ACLU into pushing for even more disgusting civil liberties, eh? One can argue for civil liberties and still be disgusted by the way people abuse them. I'd imagine the Lord gets pretty disgusted from time to time at the way we abuse our freedoms. So far as I can tell, he does little to abridge and amend them. Instead, for the most part, he lets nature take its course. This seems to be the way its going in SLC, in my opinion. I'm all for freedom of speech, but I also believe that personal property rights need to be respected, as well. Initially, the deed for the Main Street property did contain an easement for a public right of way. I happen to think that the city is better off if the church owns outright the Main Street property-- and that's the way the deal should have been structured in the first place. Unfortunately, it wasn't. I believe the Church should have told the city to pound sand when it injected the easement provision at the last moment. More unfortunately, the deal was strapped together the old fashioned way, in ways that would have, in principle, grossly offend conservatives if the acquiring party been anything other than the Church. The Church has offered a generous trade to the city of 2 acres land in exchange for the rights of access, yet the ACLU continues to fight it. Given the history of how this deal came together and that the Federal Courts ruled in the ACLU's favor, I can understand why they would be wary and cautious of a new deal. There is a principle at stake. To me it has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether one is a loyal church member or not. Arguably, a loyal Church member would insist that the Church honor, obey and sustain the law (which includes procedures mandated by law). As I said, the earlier ears sit squarely in the lap of the city for proposing the deal, failing to give ample public notice to the electorate, changing the nature of the deal at the last minute. The Church's lawyers erred by not rejecting the last minute change out of hand and, previously, for not insisting that the city follow all the rules and regs that pertain to the selling of city owned land. I think your friends who are disgusted do not protest enough. Or at least do not protest enough in the direction they should. Well...for years, for as long as I can remember, there have been protestors and demonstrations at conference. Frankly, most were entertaining, if annoying. The ones at the most recent conference seemed completely over the top, bigoted and arguably a violation of the civil rights of some conference goers. Moreover, in my mind, the nature of the protests this past confrence session provided the opportunity for to restrict similar protests in the future on the ground they present a clear and present danger to the general peace of the city; and for police to begin to arrest protestors who become harrassers. I will not be surprised to see the ACLU support such measures. In my opinion, the terrible events that antis are doing in front of the temple are just as much the fault of the ACLU as of the Antis doing it. They are often the ennablers of such wicked and sordid craft. Yep, that Consitution of ours allows evil and wicked stuff, that's for sure. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
At 03:18 PM 11/12/2003, RBS wrote: been interesting. A high school classmate of mine, an ACLU lawyer, Apparently your friend is not aware of the ACLU's origins: http://www.geocities.com/graymada/aclu.html Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only constant in the world is change--Karl Marx // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Gary: Interesting speculation and observations. I have long believed that Book of Moses provides the most comprehensive and broad scriptural presentation we have as to how God went about creating the worlds. It provides a account that is quite instructive generally. Moreover, it seems to suggest that when we know exactly how He did it, His processes will be grounded in pure science not magic. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man John, Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what personal/lineage histories of small groups are. As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still occur throughout the rest of the world. Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first man, and those before him were not counted as in the population of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then man shows up in the Garden. As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which one do we fully rely upon? Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by Brigham Young? More speculation! Gary K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 09:11 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. Skewer them with the sword of truth. Gets 'em every time. (right in the gizzard) Till, oilin' up his sword and gettin' ready to roll // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Personally, I think it will start as a war of words, then move on to violence. The wicked will not prevail, but that doesn't mean they don't make their attempts. For example, what is the logic in suicide/homicide bombing? Yes, you create terror, but you often lose more people than you take out. In wars past, Muslims in Libya and elsewhere were known to tie their legs back to their thigh, so they couldn't run from Hitler's tanks, while shooting with 19th century weapons. Logic isn't required for crazed men to start a violent overthrow. And when Satan gathers his force, they may not have the ability to win, but that may not stop them from thinking they can through violent efforts. Ragnarok, all over again Gary Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 09:11 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. Skewer them with the sword of truth. Gets 'em every time. (right in the gizzard) Till, oilin' up his sword and gettin' ready to roll Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
RB Scott wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. You lock them up in a prison, drape them in chains. In a hot war among immortals, the war has to be for prisoners. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Old Jeeps
At 07:58 AM 11/13/2003 -0700, St Steven wrote: I think that was your first mistake--putting your faith and trust in a cornbinder grin. The absolutely worst truck I ever drove (It belonged to my dad, and he owned several trucks for his business) was a 1971 IH pickup. Gutless, always breaking down, miserable on gas mileage. I had a 1968 Cornbinder once. It was a 1 ton, 4 door, with 2 full seats. We used it to haul wood out of the woods. We called it The Beast He just loved to guzzle petrol. The springs would rock and roll (it was loaded to the gills, at least 5-6 ft high, with green wood) as it wallowed through the forest. The tires would squish and moan as it lurched along at an idle in grandma. Was quite an experience for the kids. Also had a 1971 Scout. He was named Old Man Rust Left rear quarter panel fell off on the road one evening and was dragging by the tail light wires. Caught fire once when I was out and about, but we just replaced the melted parts and we were good to go next day or two. He also loved to guzzle his petrol. While we're at it, we've had some jeeps, too. Had a 1946 CJ2 that I used in the woods for a while. Just sold the hulk a couple weeks ago. Also had a 1978 CJ5 that I drove as my primary vehicle for several years. Hate to say how many times I froze my toes in that puppy. It had a 360cu in engine. It was an awesome machine, for an old rustbucket with a raggedy rag top. Ah, the things memories are made of. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] President Benson As Icon of The Right (Was: Punch their...)
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out Apparently your friend is not aware of the ACLU's origins: http://www.geocities.com/graymada/aclu.html Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. Steven: After reading the old Joe McCarthyesque/John Birch stuff that got entered into the Congressional Record unchallenged (as such stuff roytinely is: therefore its mere inclusion does not endorse it or verify its accuracy), I spent some time scanning your personal website. Because you write well, Steven, I assume you're a reasonably bright guy. But, when I read you web site practically the only prophet you cite is Ezra Taft Benson. I don't agree with President Benson's politics, but I do believe he was a good man and was entitled to to make his own political choices, as we all are. But, Steven, when you were building the site, did you not wonder why virtually no other apostle or prophet (of his era) sang the Communist Threat to Momronism song as often and as stridently as President Benson did (sure, President McKay added a few odd things, but not much). And, further that no current prophet or apostle has picked-up the President Benson's there's a commie on every streetcorner rag? I was a kid in the 50s, a teenager in the 60s when President Benson delivered his most strident talks. Some of what he said I took to heart because they squared-up with what was going on in the country at the time. I took with a grain of salt some of the other things, over the top claims -- you can't be a good Mormon and a Democrat -- because they just didn't square-up with what other prophets and apostles were saying. Worse, because almost always attempted to co-mingled his politics with church doctrine and policies. Most troubling to me is the fact that too many people, like you apparently, rely on him so heavily that it seems they have transformed him into the ultimate definer of latter-day Mormonism and what it means to be a good member of the Church nowadays. I'm pretty sure he would be troubled by this as much as I am. So why is that bright guy like you doesn't see the need to flesh-out his political/religious views using comments, observations and instructions from the other prophets of the Church? Should I worry that you and people like you are hiding out in the weeds, ready at a moment's notice to divide the church along political lines, or establish The Church of Ezra Taft Benson and tell the rest of us to go straight to hell? Just curious. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition RB Scott wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. You lock them up in a prison, drape them in chains. In a hot war among immortals, the war has to be for prisoners. --JWR You forgot to include a grin or cite. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Starts with G grout, grains and glue
Ah - the joy of levels of meaning in a parable about grout, grains of sand and glue. Sonnet III by Tom Matkin - July 19, 2001 When setting tile and filling in the grout To wipe away each extra grain of sand And clean inevitable messes out I always keep a dampish rag on hand. I've found that there is need to be in haste To clean the imperfections that adhere Lest they should set and ever after waste By showing smudges where it should be clear. Because when working in the dust and glue There is no end to ways the sticky stuff Can build up on the tiles and on you And make what you want smooth back into rough. The only hope for me to keep my tiling nice Is in this good advice: Slop once. Clean twice. Tom I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her executed at any time according to my own pleasure. It gives me great comfort! (The Little Princess) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Original Message- From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition At 10:58 PM 11/12/2003 -0700, Sir Lew wrote: At 01:16 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote: Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. From my understanding and as Brother McConkie indicates This final great battle, in which evil spirits, mortal men, and resurrected personages all participate, will be the end of war as far as this earth is concernedI believe that the final battle includes these evil spirits or in other words the 1/3 of the host of heaven that was kicked out with Satan. If this is the case it surely would be more than millions. Wow, what a huge rumble! Get's the old Celtic/Norse blood riling just to think about it. Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for instance. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
I guess I often thought about the differences between the account of the creation in the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. I think the one in Abraham is far more detailed. Stacy. At 09:44 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: Gary: Interesting speculation and observations. I have long believed that Book of Moses provides the most comprehensive and broad scriptural presentation we have as to how God went about creating the worlds. It provides a account that is quite instructive generally. Moreover, it seems to suggest that when we know exactly how He did it, His processes will be grounded in pure science not magic. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man John, Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what personal/lineage histories of small groups are. As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still occur throughout the rest of the world. Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first man, and those before him were not counted as in the population of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then man shows up in the Garden. As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which one do we fully rely upon? Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by Brigham Young? More speculation! Gary K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Actually, I erred. Moses is good, Abraham is better. -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man I guess I often thought about the differences between the account of the creation in the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. I think the one in Abraham is far more detailed. Stacy. At 09:44 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: Gary: Interesting speculation and observations. I have long believed that Book of Moses provides the most comprehensive and broad scriptural presentation we have as to how God went about creating the worlds. It provides a account that is quite instructive generally. Moreover, it seems to suggest that when we know exactly how He did it, His processes will be grounded in pure science not magic. RBS -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] The Descent of Man John, Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what personal/lineage histories of small groups are. As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still occur throughout the rest of the world. Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first man, and those before him were not counted as in the population of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then man shows up in the Garden. As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which one do we fully rely upon? Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by Brigham Young? More speculation! Gary K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
The two most Christlike individuals I can say that I knew intimately, ah, one is dead and the other one I lost contact with. They were the first to fellowship me in my ward. Stacy. At 04:07 PM 11/12/2003 -0900, you wrote: I grew up outside the Church and met a number of good, honorable, even Christlike people. But the most Christlike people I have ever known, by far, are a small number of Mormons that I have met since joining the Church. But that is just anecdotal. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 07:11 AM 11/13/2003, you wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for i I do not think that this will be a war of tanks, guns and swords. How are you going to kill a resurrected being? I think that it will be a war of good vs evil. How exactly it is going to be waged is anyone guess. My guess is that the light over comes the darkness. -- Lew -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] CORRECTION: Punch their lights out
Resend, correcting some errors, for which I apologize. -Original Message- From: Ron Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Punch their lights out Ron, And yet it is the ACLU that has pushed for access on the sidewalks around Temple Square. Interesting that their disgust motivates the ACLU into pushing for even more disgusting civil liberties, eh? One can argue in favor of civil liberties and still be disgusted by the way people abuse those rights. I'd imagine the Lord gets pretty disgusted from time to time at the way we abuse our freedoms. So far as I can tell, He does little to abridge or amend them. Instead, for the most part, He lets nature take its course. This seems to be the way it's going in SLC, in my opinion. I'm all for freedom of speech, but I also believe that personal property rights need to be respected, as well. Initially, the deed for the Main Street property contained an easement for a public right of way. I happen to think that the city is better off if the church owns outright the Main Street property-- and that's the way the deal should have been structured in the first place. Unfortunately, it wasn't. I believe the Church should have told the city to pound sand when it injected the easement provision at the last moment. More unfortunately, the deal was strapped together the old fashioned way, in ways that would have, in principle, grossly offended conservatives if the acquirer had been any other party than the Church. The Church has offered a generous trade to the city of 2 acres land in exchange for the rights of access, yet the ACLU continues to fight it. Given the history of how this deal came together and that the Federal Courts ruled in the ACLU's favor, I can understand why ACLU would be wary and cautious of a new deal. There is a principle at stake. To me it has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether one is a loyal church member or not. Arguably, a loyal Church member would insist that the Church honor, obey and sustain the law (which includes procedures mandated by law). As I said, the primary responsibility for this mess sits squarely in the lap of the city for proposing the deal, failing to give ample public notice to the electorate, changing the nature of the deal at the last minute. The Church's lawyers erred by not rejecting the last minute change out of hand and, previously, for not insisting that the city follow all the rules and regs that pertain to the selling of city owned land. I think your friends who are disgusted do not protest enough. Or at least do not protest enough in the direction they should. Well...for years, for as long as I can remember, there have been protestors and demonstrations at conference. Frankly, most were entertaining, if annoying. The ones at the most recent conference seemed completely over the top, bigoted and, in some cases, violated the civil rights of some conference goers. Moreover, in my mind, the nature of the protests this past confrence session provided the opportunity for to restrict similar protests in the future on grounds they present a clear and present danger to the general peace of the city. Further, I suspect the police will now have greater liberty to arrest protestors who impeder, obstruct and harrass. I will not be surprised to see the ACLU support such measures. In my opinion, the terrible events that antis are doing in front of the temple are just as much the fault of the ACLU as of the Antis doing it. They are often the ennablers of such wicked and sordid craft. Yep, that Consitution of ours allows evil and wicked stuff, that's for sure. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
-Original Message- From: Lew Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 1:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition At 07:11 AM 11/13/2003, you wrote: Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one would go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for i I do not think that this will be a war of tanks, guns and swords. How are you going to kill a resurrected being? I think that it will be a war of good vs evil. How exactly it is going to be waged is anyone guess. My guess is that the light over comes the darkness. Those *WERE* my points and observations, precisely. I'm glad we agree. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Semantics, semantics. Better is probably not appropriate, just more detailed and less detailed. Stacy. At 12:31 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: Actually, I erred. Moses is good, Abraham is better. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man
Whatever. -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] The Descent of Man Semantics, semantics. Better is probably not appropriate, just more detailed and less detailed. Stacy. At 12:31 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, you wrote: Actually, I erred. Moses is good, Abraham is better. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] President Benson As Icon of The Right (Was: Punch their...)
At 09:56 AM 11/13/2003, RBS (Or is that just plain BS grin) wrote: Because you write well, Steven, I assume you're a reasonably bright guy. But, when I read you web site practically the only prophet you cite is Ezra Taft Benson. I don't agree with President Benson's politics, but I do believe he was a good man and was entitled to to make his own political choices, as we all are. But, Steven, when you were building the site, did you not wonder why virtually no other apostle or prophet (of his era) sang the Communist Threat to Momronism song as often and as stridently as President Benson did (sure, President McKay added a few odd things, but not much). And, further that no current prophet or apostle has picked-up the President Benson's there's a commie on every streetcorner rag? No other Apostle or Prophet needs to. President Benson did such a great job laying that foundation grin. Besides, imo, the Book of Mormon does a lot better job of warning us about the perils of secret combinations and conspiracies designed to overthrow governments than even President Benson did grin. So why is that bright guy like you doesn't see the need to flesh-out his political/religious views using comments, observations and instructions from the other prophets of the Church? Should I worry that you and people like you are hiding out in the weeds, ready at a moment's notice to divide the church along political lines, or establish The Church of Ezra Taft Benson and tell the rest of us to go straight to hell? Just curious. Mostly I use the scriptures and the Founding Fathers to flesh out my political views. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
At 08:25 AM 11/13/2003, RB Scott wrote: Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. And the examples you have in mind would be? Well, if I have to point them out to you it wouldn't do any good anyway. You already have your mind made up. Most reasonable people, if they've paid any attention at all to current events, can see the bitter fruits that the ACLU produces. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] President Benson As Icon of The Right (Was: Punch their...)
If you talked to my mother, she'd tell you that my initials are B.S. That's because I went by my middle name through grade school. As for your non-response...well, what more can I say grin. B.S. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 2:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] President Benson As Icon of The Right (Was: Punch their...) At 09:56 AM 11/13/2003, RBS (Or is that just plain BS grin) wrote: Because you write well, Steven, I assume you're a reasonably bright guy. But, when I read you web site practically the only prophet you cite is Ezra Taft Benson. I don't agree with President Benson's politics, but I do believe he was a good man and was entitled to to make his own political choices, as we all are. But, Steven, when you were building the site, did you not wonder why virtually no other apostle or prophet (of his era) sang the Communist Threat to Momronism song as often and as stridently as President Benson did (sure, President McKay added a few odd things, but not much). And, further that no current prophet or apostle has picked-up the President Benson's there's a commie on every streetcorner rag? No other Apostle or Prophet needs to. President Benson did such a great job laying that foundation grin. Besides, imo, the Book of Mormon does a lot better job of warning us about the perils of secret combinations and conspiracies designed to overthrow governments than even President Benson did grin. So why is that bright guy like you doesn't see the need to flesh-out his political/religious views using comments, observations and instructions from the other prophets of the Church? Should I worry that you and people like you are hiding out in the weeds, ready at a moment's notice to divide the church along political lines, or establish The Church of Ezra Taft Benson and tell the rest of us to go straight to hell? Just curious. Mostly I use the scriptures and the Founding Fathers to flesh out my political views. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 08:25 AM 11/13/2003, RB Scott wrote: Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. And the examples you have in mind would be? Well, if I have to point them out to you it wouldn't do any good anyway. You already have your mind made up. Most reasonable people, if they've paid any attention at all to current events, can see the bitter fruits that the ACLU produces. There is some merit in what you say. Some causes picked up by the ACLU seem pointless and counter-productive, others do not. But again, I thank for yet another spectacular non-response. grin. B.S. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] President Benson As Icon of The Right (Was: Punch their...)
zI confess I'm worried on these accounts. Stacy. At 12:56 PM 11/13/2003 -0700, you wrote: At 09:56 AM 11/13/2003, RBS (Or is that just plain BS grin) wrote: Because you write well, Steven, I assume you're a reasonably bright guy. But, when I read you web site practically the only prophet you cite is Ezra Taft Benson. I don't agree with President Benson's politics, but I do believe he was a good man and was entitled to to make his own political choices, as we all are. But, Steven, when you were building the site, did you not wonder why virtually no other apostle or prophet (of his era) sang the Communist Threat to Momronism song as often and as stridently as President Benson did (sure, President McKay added a few odd things, but not much). And, further that no current prophet or apostle has picked-up the President Benson's there's a commie on every streetcorner rag? No other Apostle or Prophet needs to. President Benson did such a great job laying that foundation grin. Besides, imo, the Book of Mormon does a lot better job of warning us about the perils of secret combinations and conspiracies designed to overthrow governments than even President Benson did grin. So why is that bright guy like you doesn't see the need to flesh-out his political/religious views using comments, observations and instructions from the other prophets of the Church? Should I worry that you and people like you are hiding out in the weeds, ready at a moment's notice to divide the church along political lines, or establish The Church of Ezra Taft Benson and tell the rest of us to go straight to hell? Just curious. Mostly I use the scriptures and the Founding Fathers to flesh out my political views. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom
And I believe that as we grow in power and influence, that we will be feared by others, just as in Nauvoo, and attacked. The more we humble ourselves before the Lord, the better we will be able to resist these attacks, but they will come. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: I think that we will grow in power and influence and be a force to be reckoned with but that it will take a few more years. We have to have a very active base, and I don't believe that the majority of the people listed on the rolls are active. Stacy. At 09:00 AM 10/27/2003 -0900, you wrote: I have been reading THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom and I ran across an interesting statement on page 123: And who can believe that the Mormons ever would have turned away from the practice of Celestial Marriage, if it were not for federal pressure? No one, least of all in Salt Lake City, will be much inclined to accept a religious critic's foretellings, but I cheerfully do prophesy that some day, not too far on in the twenty-first century, the Mormons will have enough political and financial power to sanction polygamy again. Without it, in some form or other, the complete vision of Joseph Smith never can be fulfilled. Harold Bloom writes this as an outsider. He is an unbelieving Jew, an American gnostic. I find his statement interesting because I myself have come to the same conclusion for a number of reasons. What do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
John W. Redelfs wrote: But that is just anecdotal. --JWR I don't know Ann, but I know her brother, Tom Scrotal. And he says that she, indeed, is often just that. Noj // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Does anyone know?
Attempt to start new thread #4? (B (BDoes anyone here even know that the World Cup volleyball (Btournament is being held? Here in Japan it's hard to find much (Belse on TV right now. Seems quite silly. I mean, it isn't like (Bwe're talking about a real sport like football (the real kind, (Bnot that whimpy game more correctly known as soccer) or baseball. (BOh, I suppose Japanese politics could be considered a sport of (Btypes. But the media seems to have drifted away quite quickly. (BDoes anyone know there were parliamentary elections on Sunday? (B (BCousin Bill (B[EMAIL PROTECTED] (B"Our country, right or wrong. When (Bright, to be kept right. When wrong, (Bto be put right." -- Carl Schurz (B (B// (B/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// (B/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// (B/ (B--^ (BThis email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BEASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 (BOr send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BTOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! (Bhttp://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html (B--^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
What in the world happened? I know that I typed Tom's name as Tom Ecdotal, because my spell checker complained and I told it to leave it. Hmmm - maybe I clicked the wrong button. Oh well Noj - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa John W. Redelfs wrote: But that is just anecdotal. --JWR I don't know Ann, but I know her brother, Tom Scrotal. And he says that she, indeed, is often just that. Noj // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Jon - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:26 AM Subject: [ZION] Sons of Perdition There are two hells. The first is in the Spirit World, and it IS a wide path that leads to that hell. Damnation is another thing, as it refers to anyone whose eternal progress is limited. This can include those in the Terrestrial Kingdom (and perhaps angels in the Celestial Kingdom as well). But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Stacy: This I have read, but what about the broad way which we are told will be followed by many? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] President Benson As Icon of The Right (Was: Punch their...)
Ah, a sensible, thinking person. And, you should be concerned, Stacy. -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 6:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] President Benson As Icon of The Right (Was: Punch their...) zI confess I'm worried on these accounts. Stacy. At 12:56 PM 11/13/2003 -0700, you wrote: At 09:56 AM 11/13/2003, RBS (Or is that just plain BS grin) wrote: Because you write well, Steven, I assume you're a reasonably bright guy. But, when I read you web site practically the only prophet you cite is Ezra Taft Benson. I don't agree with President Benson's politics, but I do believe he was a good man and was entitled to to make his own political choices, as we all are. But, Steven, when you were building the site, did you not wonder why virtually no other apostle or prophet (of his era) sang the Communist Threat to Momronism song as often and as stridently as President Benson did (sure, President McKay added a few odd things, but not much). And, further that no current prophet or apostle has picked-up the President Benson's there's a commie on every streetcorner rag? No other Apostle or Prophet needs to. President Benson did such a great job laying that foundation grin. Besides, imo, the Book of Mormon does a lot better job of warning us about the perils of secret combinations and conspiracies designed to overthrow governments than even President Benson did grin. So why is that bright guy like you doesn't see the need to flesh-out his political/religious views using comments, observations and instructions from the other prophets of the Church? Should I worry that you and people like you are hiding out in the weeds, ready at a moment's notice to divide the church along political lines, or establish The Church of Ezra Taft Benson and tell the rest of us to go straight to hell? Just curious. Mostly I use the scriptures and the Founding Fathers to flesh out my political views. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_) / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 5:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 01:35 PM 11/13/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 08:25 AM 11/13/2003, RB Scott wrote: Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. And the examples you have in mind would be? Well, if I have to point them out to you it wouldn't do any good anyway. You already have your mind made up. Most reasonable people, if they've paid any attention at all to current events, can see the bitter fruits that the ACLU produces. There is some merit in what you say. Some causes picked up by the ACLU seem pointless and counter-productive, others do not. But again, I thank for yet another spectacular non-response. grin. B.S. Perhaps another time, when I'm not so pressed with other matters, I'll get into more of the specifics. Right, sure. Any time you're ready. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Really? No nice guy, Teddy. But would you be if you'd lost three brothers prematurely, violently? -Original Message- From: Jon Spencer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, something about Mass. and one of their Senators. Jon - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:26 AM Subject: [ZION] Sons of Perdition There are two hells. The first is in the Spirit World, and it IS a wide path that leads to that hell. Damnation is another thing, as it refers to anyone whose eternal progress is limited. This can include those in the Terrestrial Kingdom (and perhaps angels in the Celestial Kingdom as well). But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Stacy: This I have read, but what about the broad way which we are told will be followed by many? Stacy. // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Soccer Rules!
From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't feel the way you do about football, soccer and baseball. Professional football in this country cannot be played by ordinary people. They have to be giants. It is the same way with basketball: the best players are virtually freaks. But normal sized people can play soccer. -- Exactly my point. Soccer is a wimpy sport that anyone can play. Well, almost anyone. I'm so wimpy I probably couldn't play it. -- As for baseball, well... when my kids all got stuck out in right field while the coaches kid got to be pitcher I learned that baseball, softball actually, wasn't much of a sport except for a favored few. When I put my kids in soccer they all got to play their guts out every minute that they were in good enough shape to play. -- Grampa Bill never let any of us kids play sports. He thought that we wouldn't study if we were playing. I guess I showed him. I didn't study anyway. :-) At the time I wasn't too concerned about not playing sports, but now I wish I had done something. I will admit that those who play soccer seem to have a good time. I personally don't see how you can call it shooting when the kicked ball goes no where near the goal. So I will grant you a point on soccer perhaps being a fun game to play. But I think I would rather drive dull nails into my temples than to have to sit through watching a soccer match. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 5:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 01:54 PM 11/13/2003, Ron Scott wrote: Where, in your opinion, is the communist threat today. And, please don't post reams of stuff I've read before. Tell me what YOU think. Ron Scott I will, when I have the time (Had to take my wife down to St. George this morning, and right now I'm presently getting ready for work--yes, some of us still do work grin). In the meantime you might want to peruse a few articles I've written on the subject. Beginning with: Actually, many of us do work. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/Glasnost-Perestroika.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/Glasnost-Perestroika1.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/whosonfirst.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/mlhw.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/tradewithchina.html http://www.geocities.com/athens/crete/4516/gp/ChinaGordianknot.html -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only constant in the world is change--Karl Marx // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Soccer Rules!
Soccer in my personal opinion requires a lot more of everything than almost any other sport, and with all due respect to foot ball fans, there is no comparison between the two in terms of the physical and mental demands-- soccer wins easily; foot ball-- the players get to take all sorts of breaks. soccer-- you run the whole time, 45 minute? halves and don't have the benefit of protective padding like our football players do. if you can't crawl off the field due to an injury, they will stop the game long enough to get you out of the way, and then it's back to the game :) while it is true that normal size people can play soccer- for example, i was chief bench warmer on my college team- to make any headway in the sport, you have to be good. the rest of the world plays soccer like we play baseball-- they are crazy about it. a few months ago we had a demonstration womanes game (I think) here in Seattle-- people flew in from Europe by the 1000's to see the game, and it was not even a league game ! if you really want to drive dull nails into your head-- well, that's your choice, but personally, I find soccer a lot more fun to watch than baseball or football. instead of nails, try flaming bamboo splinters under your fingernails :) just my opinion. Bob Taylor From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't feel the way you do about football, soccer and baseball. Professional football in this country cannot be played by ordinary people. They have to be giants. It is the same way with basketball: the best players are virtually freaks. But normal sized people can play soccer. -- Exactly my point. Soccer is a wimpy sport that anyone can play. Well, almost anyone. I'm so wimpy I probably couldn't play it. -- As for baseball, well... when my kids all got stuck out in right field while the coaches kid got to be pitcher I learned that baseball, softball actually, wasn't much of a sport except for a favored few. When I put my kids in soccer they all got to play their guts out every minute that they were in good enough shape to play. -- Grampa Bill never let any of us kids play sports. He thought that we wouldn't study if we were playing. I guess I showed him. I didn't study anyway. :-) At the time I wasn't too concerned about not playing sports, but now I wish I had done something. I will admit that those who play soccer seem to have a good time. I personally don't see how you can call it shooting when the kicked ball goes no where near the goal. So I will grant you a point on soccer perhaps being a fun game to play. But I think I would rather drive dull nails into my temples than to have to sit through watching a soccer match. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
