RE: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk To be honest, I'm unconvinced by Project Canvas. It's difficult to see how a UK only system is going to compete in this day and age. What does it do that a Google TV box can't do? Why would a manufacturer make a Canvas box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? We live in a global technology age. But we also don't. The systems in a UK TV reciever are different to those of a French one, of a German one, of a USA one. The devices themselves will be very similar but each market will have its own device with its own firmware and differences. Language is the obvious one but then there's bespoke EPGs, platform differences and so on and so on. Some devices have a common stack with different layers on top. Some just have different stacks. So why would they want to? Well they wouldn't. But they have to do it already and will no doubt have to for many years in the future. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:22, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: The systems in a UK TV reciever are different to those of a French one, of a German one, of a USA one Are you honestly saying that a DVB-T receiver bought today in Germany won't work in France or the UK? Yes, the US won't use DVB because it wasn't invented there and there are some slight differences in transmission details between countries, but your basic receiver bought today is probably going to work. An old On Digital box might not work, but then they don't work that well in the UK anymore. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:35, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: Are you honestly saying that a DVB-T receiver bought today in Germany won't work in France or the UK? Yes, the US won't use DVB because it wasn't invented there and there are some slight differences in transmission details between countries, but your basic receiver bought today is probably going to work. An old On Digital box might not work, but then they don't work that well in the UK anymore. Depends how you define work. As I said, it'll work in a basic generic fashion, but there are many many aspects which vary between countries, including the EPG and Red Button. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:41, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: It should work. But not everything will work. The EPG probably won't, nor the Now and Next. You're unlikely to get traditional teletext. And if you're German, you won't get the menus in German. As a German would you buy a UK set top box? As a Brit would you buy a German set top box? Depends on the features. Depends if you travel. Or have family in Germany. Or emigrate. (I know people with Sky+ who live in Amsterdam, for example). Europe is a small place. People move around :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:41, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: It should work. But not everything will work. The EPG probably won't, nor the Now and Next. You're unlikely to get traditional teletext. And if you're German, you won't get the menus in German. As a German would you buy a UK set top box? As a Brit would you buy a German set top box? Depends on the features. Depends if you travel. Or have family in Germany. Or emigrate. (I know people with Sky+ who live in Amsterdam, for example). In the latter you'd be a Brit in German and that's a different scenario :) Europe is a small place. People move around :) They do. But in the general scheme of things, not actually that many. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:43, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: As I said, it'll work in a basic generic fashion, but there are many many aspects which vary between countries, including the EPG and Red Button. Which doesn't help the consumer at all. If I buy an ATSC TV in the New York and take it to California it will work perfectly with no extra effort on the manufacturers part. For Europe, a DVB TV will work at a basic level and if the manufacturer puts in extra effort it will work perfectly - but I'm going to have to pay extra for that perfection. Now they want to make IPTV even more fragmented for no apparent reason. I'm failing to see what good is going to come to this. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:41, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:22, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: The systems in a UK TV reciever are different to those of a French one, of a German one, of a USA one Are you honestly saying that a DVB-T receiver bought today in Germany won't work in France or the UK? It should work. But not everything will work. The EPG probably won't, nor the Now and Next. You're unlikely to get traditional teletext. And if you're German, you won't get the menus in German. As a German would you buy a UK set top box? As a Brit would you buy a German set top box? My sister in law lives in France and often goes shopping in Germany because prices in Germany tend to be lower. So while I wouldn't buy a set top box in Germany, she probably would. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Andrew Bowden wrote: It should work. But not everything will work. The EPG probably won't, nor the Now and Next. You're unlikely to get traditional teletext. And if you're German, you won't get the menus in German. As a German would you buy a UK set top box? As a Brit would you buy a German set top box? The problem is more fundamental than this. The problem is that the free market likely will be throttled even *within the UK* by Canvas. We don't have sufficient plans/specs yet to say for sure, but given prior history wrt the BBCs' actions with iPlayer there is strong cause to worry that Canvas will be locked down and that all 3rd party applications will require some kind of approval by a centralised body before being allowed general access to the device. This inherently implies a stifling of the market. Whereas before, where the BBC broadcast a signal according to some public standard and where many device makers independently innovated and built devices to receive/display that signal, with Canvas there is a very clear risk that a very small number of organisations will have rubber-stamping power over which device and software makers do and do not get access. Despite the fact I respect the BBC and the people within it, and that I believe they are good people working in good faith for the public benefit, I can not believe that it is ever a good idea to centralise the process for access to a markets (other than for very limited regulatory reasons such as to enforce safety regs or provide arbitration services). Let device makers remain able to innovate independently. In practical terms, I want to remain able to buy cheap Chinese (or whatever) TV electronics - where those devices are built to support a number of global standards, and the vendors do not have the ability to co-ordinate crypto keys, etc.. with some UK specific body. NB: Reply-to is set to both my personal address and the list address. Not sure if all list software or MUAs handle that appropriately. Please check addresses on any reply. regards, -- Paul Jakma p...@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Hope is a good breakfast, but it is a bad supper. -- Francis Bacon - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Andrew Bowden Sent: 14 September 2010 09:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium It should work. But not everything will work. The EPG probably won't, nor the Now and Next. You're unlikely to get traditional teletext. And if you're German, you won't get the menus in German. As a German would you buy a UK set top box? As a Brit would you buy a German set top box? I think you might be surprised Andrew how well DVB kit works across Europe from the larger manufacturers. The LCD screens we have in the office are an EU wide model that asks you for the country and language first time you switch them on, and because they are an EU wide design give us things like integrated DVB-C which we need - but wouldn't normally be available on a UK specific model. Teletext works, Subtitles work, Logical channel numbers work, Now and Next works for the current mux - and probably would work across all channels if I could ever get my head round the EIT correlator on the headend. Red button even works from the DVB-C tuner, as long as we have not done any SID/PID remapping when remuxing the services for the DVB ringmain. Admittedly most of this came as a surprise to me too, they were purchased because they were the cheepest 1080 panels in the catalogue - the feature set was a welcome bonus. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * 500NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH * bbcworldservice.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On 13/09/2010 23:11, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 21:22, David Tomlinson d.tomlin...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: The Google TV box (Logitech Revue) is an addition to your set top box, so it does not integrate with Free To Air TV and may be unable to access UK catch-up content. But it's also getting installed directly into televisions and there will probably be a DirectTV box in the US - it's not hard to imagine DVB-T2 boxes running Google TV. As for TV's having Google TV built in, the same or more expensive models for the UK market (Treasure Island) will have Canvas built in, but I don't see many Google TV with DVB2 been sold in the UK (offered in retailers), unless Google can supply UK Free To Air content, as it is broadcast (Google (UK) TV). As long as we're getting broadcaster solutions to internet problems then that's just not going to happen. The distributors and broadcasters not only want to stop you copying content, and redistributing it (or even making fair use of it) but their absolute control also extends to segmenting markets (e.g. DVD region codes) to ease distribution and marketing; to maximise the capture of the consumer surplus and seek monopoly (oligopoly) rents. Prices and access (exclusive deals) vary between markets. The distributors already use GeoIP or billing addresses to attempt to restrict access on the internet to services (including the BBC), and while iplayer, ITV player, and SEE SAW TV may be an option (Full Fat Flash), the experience will be much more awkward than just using Canvas, which will dominate the UK Free To Air market and retailers. As Andrew said competition is not regarded as desirable in a World TV market. (Although Sky's monopoly on sport is been reduced) Yes you can use Google TV (with iplayer et al) but few will do so, hook up your PC to your TV and use iplayer or watch TV on your laptop (some will), it is just not as seamless an integration as a dedicated or built in product (Scott for example has a preference for integrated TV's). We see still see: Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, Britain's got Talent, Masterchef remade in every market for cultural reasons (not just language), even if like the UK/Australia/New Zealand (USA ?) the cultural differences are not that great (and Masterchef Australia is available on 'Watch' (BBC Pay TV) if you have not had enough of the BBC UK version). Some people may want a subscription to a US product (Google TV (USA)), for early access to US content, or content otherwise behind SKY's pay wall, but will you be allowed to ? Or will there be a Google TV (UK) in which case it may have DVB-T2, and be Canvas or only offer UI interface differences which may appeal to Scott ? Competition between user interfaces, already exists have the options of a Virgin Vbox or Sky (OpenTV) (you may have to subscribe to an additional content package or service and they also require different delivery technology). Except that, the Canvas joint venture wishes to control branding, there is no reason why the Canvas user interface should not be completely skin-able (some elements are replaceable by the OEM, so a Sony TV will also have Sony branding) or even replaceable (download the UI of your choice). TV integration , Users Interface, only if you buy an alternative bundle, (which may or may not be available). Yes, well maybe ? But a truly open solution (user selectable/modifiable), competition: red in tooth and claw (and price and access), control over your own hardware, privacy. The Powers That Be (TPTB), say NO! (or the TPTB say: the computer says NO!) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
I think you might be surprised Andrew how well DVB kit works across Europe from the larger manufacturers. The LCD screens we have in the office are an EU wide model that asks you for the country and language first time you switch them on, and because they are an EU wide design give us things like integrated DVB-C which we need - but wouldn't normally be available on a UK specific model. Teletext works, Subtitles work, Logical channel numbers work, Now and Next works for the current mux - and probably would work across all channels if I could ever get my head round the EIT correlator on the headend. Red button even works from the DVB-C tuner, as long as we have not done any SID/PID remapping when remuxing the services for the DVB ringmain. Far from it - not surprised at all. I've worked with TV devices for seven years and I've just finished a project which has seen BBC iPlayer launch on Sony's 2010 Bravia TVs and I got to learn a bit about what goes on inside a TV. But then I also got to learn the effort it takes to support UK only things like the Freeview HD spec! Different consumer manufacturers take different approaches. Some just buy an off the shelf country specific stack for example which is purely focussed at the UK. Others make pan-country models. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:21, David Tomlinson d.tomlin...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: On 13/09/2010 23:11, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: The distributors already use GeoIP or billing addresses to attempt to restrict access on the internet to services (including the BBC), and while iplayer, ITV player, and SEE SAW TV may be an option (Full Fat Flash), the experience will be much more awkward than just using Canvas, which will dominate the UK Free To Air market and retailers. I think that until we start seeing manufacturers piping up saying that they're going to start supporting Canvas in devices I can pop down to Tesco and buy it's too early to say that Canvas will dominate the market. If it remains the sole preserve of BT Vision/Talk Talk TV boxes then it is far, far away from dominating the market. At the moment, Canvas seems to be the preserve of the terrestrial broadcasters and a handful of ISPs. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:34, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: I think that until we start seeing manufacturers piping up saying that they're going to start supporting Canvas in devices I can pop down to Tesco and buy it's too early to say that Canvas will dominate the market. If it remains the sole preserve of BT Vision/Talk Talk TV boxes then it is far, far away from dominating the market. At the moment, Canvas seems to be the preserve of the terrestrial broadcasters and a handful of ISPs. Given the specs haven't been finished yet, it's the preserve of precisely nobody _right now_. However, the positioning is very much of a Freeview plus Internet (rather than an IPTV proposition per se), which means it'll be pushed very very hard in the direction of those flogging Freeview/Freesat boxes today. The specs as they stand are not going to be an accident. The intent will be that existing box suppliers can bolt on Canvas capabilities with not a huge amount of effort, and thus, within a year or so of mainstream launch, traditional Freeview boxes will cease to exist. You don't plough the amount of money the BBC has loaned the partners into a venture like this without having a plan along these lines. Even BT, TalkTalk, and the broadcasters aren't _that_ daft. M. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
I agree with you entirely, Paul. Btw, did folks here see my recent posts to the gets even better and scaling blogs? http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2010/09/bbc_iplayer_gets_even_better.html - mine are near the bottom. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2010/07/scaling_the_bbc_iplayer_to_han.html - mine has been the last post on that one for a while. And who said that a more complex design was more fun anyway? Especially when it breaks usability... - Original message - On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Andrew Bowden wrote: It should work. But not everything will work. The EPG probably won't, nor the Now and Next. You're unlikely to get traditional teletext. And if you're German, you won't get the menus in German. As a German would you buy a UK set top box? As a Brit would you buy a German set top box? The problem is more fundamental than this. The problem is that the free market likely will be throttled even *within the UK* by Canvas. We don't have sufficient plans/specs yet to say for sure, but given prior history wrt the BBCs' actions with iPlayer there is strong cause to worry that Canvas will be locked down and that all 3rd party applications will require some kind of approval by a centralised body before being allowed general access to the device. This inherently implies a stifling of the market. Whereas before, where the BBC broadcast a signal according to some public standard and where many device makers independently innovated and built devices to receive/display that signal, with Canvas there is a very clear risk that a very small number of organisations will have rubber-stamping power over which device and software makers do and do not get access. Despite the fact I respect the BBC and the people within it, and that I believe they are good people working in good faith for the public benefit, I can not believe that it is ever a good idea to centralise the process for access to a markets (other than for very limited regulatory reasons such as to enforce safety regs or provide arbitration services). Let device makers remain able to innovate independently. In practical terms, I want to remain able to buy cheap Chinese (or whatever) TV electronics - where those devices are built to support a number of global standards, and the vendors do not have the ability to co-ordinate crypto keys, etc.. with some UK specific body. NB: Reply-to is set to both my personal address and the list address. Not sure if all list software or MUAs handle that appropriately. Please check addresses on any reply. regards, -- Paul Jakma p...@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Hope is a good breakfast, but it is a bad supper. -- Francis Bacon - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 13:08, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: Given the specs haven't been finished yet, it's the preserve of precisely nobody _right now_. True, but I still would have expected at least one of the big manufacturers to be on board by now. Failing that, even someone like Tesco saying they will have a Freeview HD + Canvas box in their Technika range. I've not even seen any hint of non-committal support - who is going to be making this market destroying technology? What's the point of going through all the trouble of defining a spec if no one is going to use it to build something? At the moment it seems like we'll just dump this spec out in the world and like magic it will appear everywhere. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On 13 Sep 2010, at 19:38, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: Why would a manufacturer make a Canvas box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? Why would a manufacturer make a Freesat box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 13:42, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 13:08, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: Given the specs haven't been finished yet, it's the preserve of precisely nobody _right now_. True, but I still would have expected at least one of the big manufacturers to be on board by now. Pretty sure Pace and Humax are. Failing that, even someone like Tesco saying they will have a Freeview HD + Canvas box in their Technika range. I've not even seen any hint of non-committal support - who is going to be making this market destroying technology? Well, widespread support from the industry: http://www.projectcanvas.info/index.cfm/news/?mode=aliasalias=INDUSTRY-GETS-BEHIND-PROJECT-CANVAS What's the point of going through all the trouble of defining a spec if no one is going to use it to build something? At the moment it seems like we'll just dump this spec out in the world and like magic it will appear everywhere. What're they going to do? Make the negotiations public? Committing to something like this is something which tends to happen in syncronicity. A bunch of manufacturers announce, once the specs are baked, that they'll be releasing products in time for x important date. Until then, you get only rumours. They're a paranoid bunch, generally. Anyway, mark the Olympics in your diary. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 13:50, Stephen Jolly st...@jollys.org wrote: On 13 Sep 2010, at 19:38, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: Why would a manufacturer make a Canvas box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? Why would a manufacturer make a Freesat box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? Seeing as it seems to be mostly Humax and Grundig making Freesat boxes (http://www.dixons.co.uk/gbuk/r/freesat/0_0_0/?srcid=369xtor=AL-63) it looks like most of them can't be bothered. And besides the copy protection, they're mostly international standards based tech, aren't they? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 13:51, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 13:42, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 13:08, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: Well, widespread support from the industry: http://www.projectcanvas.info/index.cfm/news/?mode=aliasalias=INDUSTRY-GETS-BEHIND-PROJECT-CANVAS I guess anonymous support is better than no support What're they going to do? Make the negotiations public? How much negotiation do they need to do to join the Canvas Project? Every other bit of kit based on an open(*) platform has an alliance behind it that includes manufactures from the start. Why is Canvas different? Thinking about it, even closed platforms usually have early manufacturer support. I can't buy a WinMo 7 phone but at least I know who I can get one from when they arrive. (*) For definitions of open that don't satisfy everyone's definition of open :-) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
http://paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-canvas-complaint-5-comes-from-open-source-software-fans/ The OSC is a small body, with 23 members from small development and consultancy firms, and it’s objection is largely philosophical - that Canvas isn’t “open” in the same way Unix and Linux lovers regard “open”. http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Accordingly, Project Canvas should all the application programme interfaces (“API”s) and use and publish unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas ready” client solutions on any platform. Personally, I believe the BBC is breaking the Law, and have complained to the OFT (twice) and the BBC (twice) via their web form which has on both occasions lost my complaint. Bizarrely, the OFT does not consider my complaint important enough to pursue, when it has international and nation implications. To quote the OSC. http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Project Canvas in its current form is going to lead to the BBC having unprecedented influence in the market for computer hardware and software. It would appear complaints from the public are to be dismissed by 'The Powers That Be'. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
Anyone else notice the similarity between the OSC's position and that held by Clive Sinclair and Chris Curry back when rhe Beeb were backing the NewBrain? - Original message - http://paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-canvas-complaint-5-comes-from-open-source-software-fans/ The OSC is a small body, with 23 members from small development and consultancy firms, and it’s objection is largely philosophical - that Canvas isn’t “open” in the same way Unix and Linux lovers regard “open”. http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Accordingly, Project Canvas should all the application programme interfaces (“API”s) and use and publish unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas ready” client solutions on any platform. Personally, I believe the BBC is breaking the Law, and have complained to the OFT (twice) and the BBC (twice) via their web form which has on both occasions lost my complaint. Bizarrely, the OFT does not consider my complaint important enough to pursue, when it has international and nation implications. To quote the OSC. http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Project Canvas in its current form is going to lead to the BBC having unprecedented influence in the market for computer hardware and software. It would appear complaints from the public are to be dismissed by 'The Powers That Be'. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
I'd also say they've done the same with the iPlayer client. If they opened it up, it could be running on pretty mujch anything within months. - Original message - http://paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-canvas-complaint-5-comes-from-open-source-software-fans/ The OSC is a small body, with 23 members from small development and consultancy firms, and it’s objection is largely philosophical - that Canvas isn’t “open” in the same way Unix and Linux lovers regard “open”. http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Accordingly, Project Canvas should all the application programme interfaces (“API”s) and use and publish unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas ready” client solutions on any platform. Personally, I believe the BBC is breaking the Law, and have complained to the OFT (twice) and the BBC (twice) via their web form which has on both occasions lost my complaint. Bizarrely, the OFT does not consider my complaint important enough to pursue, when it has international and nation implications. To quote the OSC. http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Project Canvas in its current form is going to lead to the BBC having unprecedented influence in the market for computer hardware and software. It would appear complaints from the public are to be dismissed by 'The Powers That Be'. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On 13 September 2010 12:19, David Tomlinson d.tomlin...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Accordingly, Project Canvas should all the application programme interfaces (“API”s) and use and publish unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas ready” client solutions on any platform. Was the missing fifth word in that sentence (and submitted response) supposed to be document or publish? I'm wondering if the sentence was edited one too many times and should have read: Accordingly, Project Canvas should publish all the application programming interfaces (“API”s) and use unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas-ready” client solutions on any platform. In the context of software development, I've always understood API to stand for Application Programming Interface. Is the provided expansion also valid? Cheers, Nick - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 13:21, Nick Morrott knowledgejun...@gmail.com wrote: Accordingly, Project Canvas should publish all the application programming interfaces (“API”s) and use unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas-ready” client solutions on any platform. Gah, this makes no sense in the context of what Canvas actually is. If you're going to bitch and moan, at least bloody do it coherently. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 13:33, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 13:21, Nick Morrott knowledgejun...@gmail.com wrote: Accordingly, Project Canvas should publish all the application programming interfaces (“API”s) and use unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas-ready” client solutions on any platform. Gah, this makes no sense in the context of what Canvas actually is. If you're going to bitch and moan, at least bloody do it coherently. Clarification: when I say you I say so in the general sense, not you specifically. :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:33:38 +0100, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 13:21, Nick Morrott knowledgejun...@gmail.com wrote: Accordingly, Project Canvas should publish all the application programming interfaces (“API”s) and use unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas-ready” client solutions on any platform. Gah, this makes no sense in the context of what Canvas actually is. If you're going to bitch and moan, at least bloody do it coherently. +1 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On 13 September 2010 13:36, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 13:33, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 13:21, Nick Morrott knowledgejun...@gmail.com wrote: Accordingly, Project Canvas should publish all the application programming interfaces (“API”s) and use unencumbered open standards so as to enable anyone to provide “Project Canvas-ready” client solutions on any platform. Gah, this makes no sense in the context of what Canvas actually is. If you're going to bitch and moan, at least bloody do it coherently. Clarification: when I say you I say so in the general sense, not you specifically. Thanks. Additional clarification: when I said should have read I meant the OSC meant it to read - last time I play guess the missing word. I probably should have moaned about more important things like paidcontent not knowing the difference between its and it's instead... :) Cheers, Nick -- Nick Morrott MythTV Official wiki: http://mythtv.org/wiki/ MythTV users list archive: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest. - Benjamin Franklin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Mo McRoberts wrote: If you're going to bitch and moan, at least bloody do it coherently. Clarification: when I say you I say so in the general sense, not you specifically. ObEnglish: It's for cases like this that the olde english ye should be re-surrected, and why its use still persists in certain english speaking regions (e.g. many parts of Ireland). regards, -- Paul Jakma p...@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Pauca sed matura. [Few but excellent.] -- Gauss - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On 13/09/2010 13:39, Tim Dobson wrote: Gah, this makes no sense in the context of what Canvas actually is. If you're going to bitch and moan, at least bloody do it coherently. +1 A sense of outrage always makes me incoherent too. So what is Canvas ? A black box under the control of a Joint Venture, who extends the monopoly interest of the rights holders and using the power of rights holders and the Joint Venture members (including a large public institution) to distort the consumer electronics market in the UK. In violation of competition law. A project that wishes to monitor and control a device paid for and therefore owned by the consumer, through encryption and DRM, removing all consumer control and violating European Law and the Human Rights act in the process ? A project that will exclude more open devices like PC's, and restrict public access to publicly funded content. I guess the above is not how the BBC would describe it ! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:19, David Tomlinson d.tomlin...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: To quote the OSC. http://www.opensourceconsortium.org/downloads/project_canvas/project_canvas_consultation_response.pdf Project Canvas in its current form is going to lead to the BBC having unprecedented influence in the market for computer hardware and software. To be honest, I'm unconvinced by Project Canvas. It's difficult to see how a UK only system is going to compete in this day and age. What does it do that a Google TV box can't do? Why would a manufacturer make a Canvas box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? All it does is remind me of the BBC Micro Vs PC Compatibles. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 19:38, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney- To be honest, I'm unconvinced by Project Canvas. It's difficult to see how a UK only system is going to compete in this day and age. What does it do that a Google TV box can't do? Why would a manufacturer make a Canvas box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? All it does is remind me of the BBC Micro Vs PC Compatibles. Canvas is very short-sighted, but not because it's contrasted with Google TV. GTV has its own raft of moronic issues. From what I know, Canvas started life as something with a relatively exciting promise: blur the lines between content delivered over IP and content delivered over the air. Splendid. Nothing wrong with that. By easing the massive barrier to entry which exists because of the medium (well, media — DTT, cable, and satellite), you open the market up to a whole host of potential content providers who can get their wares into the living rooms of people who don't particularly want to faff around with web (and all it entails) in order to watch some telly. Unfortunately, this poses a bit of a problem. Not for the BBC particularly (although doubtless many within it look upon such a future with a certain amount of trepidation), but for the other partners in the JV who have a whole lot more to lose if people can chip away at their audience-share for everything except the major series with not a lot of outlay. What would be a win to consumers, if done sensible, is potentially a huge loss to ITV, Channel 4, and Channel 5. Essentially, the Canvas JV collectively wants to reap the benefits of the Internet without letting consumers do the same. What we're left with is a somewhat interesting platform. Technically — as far as I can tell based upon what’s been released to date, it's not bad at all, if not particularly forward-thinking. Where we have MHEG on Freeview and Freesat, “application developers” have a choice of MHEG, Flash Lite, or HTML5. Not too shabby. However, the fundamental model remains one whereby the broadcasters as we know them today are not on an equal footing with everybody else, despite a platform which could allow some significant degree of levelling without going too far the other way. Where there was the barrier-to-entry in the form of spectrum and the like, there is now an artificial barrier-to-entry in the form of the Canvas Joint Venture. Thus, Canvas is more or less a souped-up Freeview. It's aiming at the masses, but it’s some distance away from what *could* have been implemented. On the other hand, Google TV doesn't know _what_ it wants to be. Google seems to have this notion that people want to search the web on their TVs and that the user interface for this won't suck balls from 10ft away. Unfortunately, it will. In the end, it's another interesting platform in technical terms, but one which lacks the user experience needed to become a mainstream product (and in the context of this conversation, that's dependent upon whether it lands in the UK any time in the next year or so, which is by no means guaranteed). Worse, GTV – as far as I can tell — lacks any integration between the broadcast stream and the IP-delivered stuff. GTV is, effectively, just a layer on top of whatever happens to be airing. No triggering, no introspection. The “worldwide” angle is a misnomer, because pretty much no TV-related product operates worldwide. Some stuff works generically across all implementations of a particular broadcast standard, but will do so without any of the local niceties. Others will implement multiple standards (although they tend to be quite pricey). The flipside is that the technical aspects of the Canvas specs will probably get punted up to ETSI at some point, and so other countries can run their own “Canvas” ventures working to the same standards. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
To be honest, I'm unconvinced by Project Canvas. It's difficult to see how a UK only system is going to compete in this day and age. What does it do that a Google TV box can't do? Why would a manufacturer make a Canvas box instead of something that they can sell in most of the world (or even all of the world with the right components)? All it does is remind me of the BBC Micro Vs PC Compatibles. This is not my field and I have not been following the details of the implementation of Canvas: The Google TV box (Logitech Revue) is an addition to your set top box, so it does not integrate with Free To Air TV and may be unable to access UK catch-up content. While it has minimum hardware specification, DVB-T2, 32Mb local storage etc, this may be modularised commodity hardware. Revue/Boxee may be cheaper. Canvas to a large extent is a software stack. Core, UI and Marlin DRM will all be closed to the user. Any user HTML, Java/action script would appear to be limited to extensions (e.g. games), or accessing internet content (excluding UK Free to Air catchup etc). If not totally closed like the PS3. Commodity(ish) hardware with access to UK Free to Air TV catch up, is much more like BT, Sky, Virgin services than Google TV (US orientated). Even Google TV is a black box with HDMI (in/out), what I imagine the Open Source Consortium would like (and certainly I would) is a PC with a DVB-T2 USB tuner, allowing an open source implementation of Canvas, which of course would cause an issue with Marlin (unauthorised and insecure (user modifiable) clients). Or better still a simple URI and python/perl/ruby/curl script to access or download Canvas, Free To Air TV catchup content (including HDTV). - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Canvas - Open Source Consortium
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 21:22, David Tomlinson d.tomlin...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: The Google TV box (Logitech Revue) is an addition to your set top box, so it does not integrate with Free To Air TV and may be unable to access UK catch-up content. But it's also getting installed directly into televisions and there will probably be a DirectTV box in the US - it's not hard to imagine DVB-T2 boxes running Google TV. I'm not saying that Google TV is the Canvas killer - it's more that things like Google TV seem to make a lot more sense than Canvas (at least for boxes people go out and buy - maybe it makes sense for things BT Vision boxes). So that's anything like Google TV, Boxee, the modern Internet TVs companies like Samsung are making or one of the other options out there. Pretty much anything with a web browser + full fat flash will work with almost every TV catch up service out there, so I'm not sure why there needs to be a special UK only platform developed. Google TV adds organization, some sugar so I don't have to click on a full screen button and an app platform - which is why I find it far the most interesting option, other people will have other preferences. Or better still a simple URI and python/perl/ruby/curl script to access or download Canvas, Free To Air TV catchup content (including HDTV). As long as we're getting broadcaster solutions to internet problems then that's just not going to happen. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
