it just didn't make sense. All is not, however, lost,
as I am currently trying to pull what (few) strings I
have to get an exemption for the color-blindess (odds
are low, but possible) and, if I do, I will explore
the possibility of doing two years _after_ my current
job, although at 25 I will
That's the truly shocking thing. Even in Nazi
Germany, if you wanted out of the mass execution
squads, (einsatzgruppen, I think, but I bet Damon will
correct me)
You are correct I think. Problem with Brin-L and my desire to keep up with
other lists is that, invariably, I get way behind!
Damon.
At 11:47 21-03-03 -0500, Damon Agretto wrote:
Problem with Brin-L and my desire to keep up with other lists is that,
invariably, I get way behind!
Quit those other lists, then. I mean, when you have Brin-L, why would you
need any other lists? :-)
Jeroen Brin-L Propaganda van Baardwijk
I do remember seeing a history of WWII that indicated that the Nazis were
first greeted as liberators in the USSR, until their behavior turned people
against them. If they were as generous with terms of occupation in the
USSR as they were in France, would the citizens of the USSR have fought as
Quit those other lists, then. I mean, when you have Brin-L, why would you
need any other lists? :-)
Well, Jeroen, if Brin-L can supply my gaming fix then you'd have a valid
point! Anyone want to talk about Fading Suns RPG or Battletech? :)
Damon.
On 21 Mar 2003 at 12:13, Damon wrote:
Quit those other lists, then. I mean, when you have Brin-L, why would
you need any other lists? :-)
Well, Jeroen, if Brin-L can supply my gaming fix then you'd have a
valid point! Anyone want to talk about Fading Suns RPG or Battletech?
:)
MegaMek
At 12:13 21-03-03 -0500, Damon Agretto wrote:
Quit those other lists, then. I mean, when you have Brin-L, why would you
need any other lists? :-)
Well, Jeroen, if Brin-L can supply my gaming fix then you'd have a valid
point! Anyone want to talk about Fading Suns RPG or Battletech? :)
All is
From: Damon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well, Jeroen, if Brin-L can supply my gaming fix then you'd
have a valid point! Anyone want to talk about Fading Suns
RPG or Battletech? :)
Not those but I'll talk Hero System (Champions) anytime!
- jmh
Damon wrote:
Quit those other lists, then. I mean, when you have Brin-L, why
would you
need any other lists? :-)
Well, Jeroen, if Brin-L can supply my gaming fix then you'd have a
valid
point! Anyone want to talk about Fading Suns RPG or Battletech? :)
I'm a GURPS man myself, but I've
At 21:19 18-03-03 +, John Giorgis wrote:
First question for you - do they have to irradiate the mail in your office
because several people in *your* city have _died_ from anthrax?
Didn't think so.
How can you be sure that they don't irradiate the mail over here?
I'm not sure if they *are*
At 17:25 18-03-03 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:
With all those security measures in place, and with all that military
hardware in position around DC, it is probably one of the safest urban
areas in the country right now... Given all those security measures,
chances are that I am taking more risk
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of J. van Baardwijk
Massive personal attack snipped
I guess I'd better make note of the fact that your friendly local list
managers observed and acted upon said personal attack in our usual manner.
Which is
At 05:34 PM 3/18/03 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote:
Jon Gabriel wrote:
DC was targeted by Muslim terrorists before: the attack on the Pentagon,
where John *works* (did it completely escape your notice that if he had
been
in another section of the building he works in he might have been killed
iaamoac wrote:
Whenever I walk by there, I can't help but be astonished that it was
*only* 60 years ago - and yet it seems so absolutely unthinkable
today. Sure we can all talk about technological development over
the last century, but our ethical development is almost as awe-
inspiring -
From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:47:20 -0500
iaamoac wrote:
Whenever I walk by there, I can't help
At 16:33 17-03-03 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
What risk would that be? The only action he is involved in is posting
Bush-regime propaganda to a mailing list; what risks he is exposing
himself to by doing that (other than having his arguments shot to
barrels time and time again)?
He lives in the
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], J. van Baardwijk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What risk would that be?
He lives in the DC area.
With all those security measures in place, and with all that
military
hardware in position around DC, it is probably one of the safest
urban
areas in the country
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:45:34 +0100
At 16:33 17-03-03 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
What risk would
Jon Gabriel wrote:
DC was targeted by Muslim terrorists before: the attack on the Pentagon,
where John *works* (did it completely escape your notice that if he had been
in another section of the building he works in he might have been killed
that day?) and the failed terror plane attack that
Nick Arnett wrote:
If there's anything I really want to criticize,
it's the if you're not for us, then you're
against us attitude that seems to pervade
discussion (if it can be called that) of this war.
I'm not talking about here on the list so much as
on the international stage. It lumps
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dan Minette
...
Maybe some numbers would help. How many escaped from France with French
help? Gautam claimed that the French record was much worse than other
countries. Do you have numbers that
Matt Grimaldi wrote:
It also says If you don't do exactly as we want, then
we'll consider you an enemy. It worries me greatly
that our government has to resort to intimidation bordering
on extortion in order to attempt an action that they
consider so obvious and self-evident.
Who has the
At 19:20 16-03-03 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
If the US was under such occupation, what would happen? Well, I hope to
God that if I wasn't dead, I'd be helping to smuggle Jews out of the
country, and I'm confident that the rest of the population would do the same.
That's very unlikely. It is
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], J. van Baardwijk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 19:20 16-03-03 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
If the US was under such occupation, what would happen? Well, I
hope to
God that if I wasn't dead, I'd be helping to smuggle Jews out of
the
country, and I'm confident
At 20:39 17-03-03 +, John Giorgis wrote:
If the US was under such occupation, what would happen? Well, I hope
to God that if I wasn't dead, I'd be helping to smuggle Jews out of
the country, and I'm confident that the rest of the population would
do the same.
That's very unlikely. It
- Original Message -
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
No, spoken like someone who knows that with most people in such a
situation
At 15:34 17-03-03 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
No, spoken like someone who knows that with most people in such a
situation, their survival instinct kicks in and takes over.
But, Gautam provided plenty of counterexamples in other countries where
the Nazis attacked. Examples where people's lives
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:34:58 -0600
- Original Message -
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL
- Original Message -
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
At 15:34 17-03-03 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
No, spoken like someone who
--- J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Apparently not -- unless he signed up for military
service in the front
lines in Iraq, and didn't bother to tell us about
it.
Jeroen Make love, not war van Baardwijk
Not an entirely unfair question, although rather
ironic coming from you,
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:33:17 -0600
- Original Message -
From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL
- Original Message -
From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How many non-Jews were sent to concentration camps
for helping the Jews?
How many were put to death? If I read Gautam
right, many people did fight
the Holocaust with relatively minimal risk.
If that's what Gautam is saying, then I think I'll
At 16:56 17-03-03 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
Moderate risk? It was a _major_ risk. A HUGE risk. People who were
discovered protecting Jews were treated like Jews. They risked not
only their own lives but those of their families. They may have been
cowards but I can understand their fear.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of J. van Baardwijk
But how many Jews *in absolute numbers* were
saved/rescued/protected in the
various European countries? FREX, Denmark is a considerably
smaller country
(in both population and
Dan Minette wrote:
How many non-Jews were sent to concentration camps for helping the Jews?
How many were put to death? If I read Gautam right, many people did fight
the Holocaust with relatively minimal risk.
Not that I don't take Gautam at his word, but Nick has posted an article
that
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Not that I don't take Gautam at his word, but Nick
has posted an article
that contradicts his contention that the French
didn't protect French
Jews. Why do you continue to favor Gautam's
statements?
Also, France today has one of the highest
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Erik Reuter
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 5:17 P
To: Killer Bs Discussion
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
On Mon, Mar 17, 2003 at 07:53:28AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Gautam Mukunda
...
Actually, I don't think it did. France's record was
better than I thought it was, without question.
_But_, the article certainly didn't say that France
protected its Jews. As Erik
On Mon, Mar 17, 2003 at 06:41:33PM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:
If the majority of French people favored evacuation of the Jews (to
put it as mildly as they might have rationalized it to be, especially
before the 'final solution' began), surely the losses would have been
far, far greater, don't
- Original Message -
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How many non-Jews were sent
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
Dan Minette wrote:
How many non-Jews were sent to concentration camps
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As I've grown older, I am more and more astonished that the
Holocaust happened in my own father's lifetime. I often find
myself thinking that humanity hasn't evolved much in the 50 years
that have passed, at least in the
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Erik Reuter
...
Well, I'd hope in my country, if the police started rounding up an
ethnic group and shipping them out, that the majority of people would
march in the streets and force the police to stop.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of iaamoac
...
Whenever I walk by there, I can't help but be astonished that it was
*only* 60 years ago - and yet it seems so absolutely unthinkable
today. Sure we can all talk about technological
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Gautam Mukunda
...
1. Your claims to know French history would be more
convincing if you displayed _knowledge of_ French
history and
2. Apparently not. I guess it was too much to ask. I
had dinner
* Gautam Mukunda [Sat, 15/03/2003 at 20:12 -0800]
Since they seem to be made by someone who knows a
_lot_ less of France's history than I do, no, not
really. The Vichy government was a collaborationist
government of France that ran southern France _without
German occupation_ for much of the
On Sun, Mar 16, 2003 at 01:02:47AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:
Proclaiming that I don't know what I'm talking about and dropping
names... means what? Not an honored debate approach, IIRC.
Nick, in a previous message you ended with this paragraph:
Given your earlier misrepresentation of French
On 15 Mar 2003 at 20:44, Nick Arnett wrote:
realize, by the French Catholic Church, by the
Resistance, or by anyone else of significance in
French society. You might want to look up the
Dreyfuss Affair for more information on how deeply
anti-Semitism was set into the elites of French
* Andrew Crystall [Sun, 16/03/2003 at 13:10 -]
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority, especially at present.
^
/me doesn't bother to answer.
--
Jean-Marc
___
On 16 Mar 2003 at 14:17, Jean-Marc Chaton wrote:
* Andrew Crystall [Sun, 16/03/2003 at 13:10 -]
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority, especially at present.
^
/me doesn't bother to answer.
sigh minority.
I've been up for ~30 hours.
If
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Andrew Crystall
...
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority, especially at present.
The majority of people in France today are neo-Nazis? I'm starting to
wonder if I've completely lost my mind.
Nick
At 13:26 16-03-03 +, Andy Crystall wrote:
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority, especially at present.
^
/me doesn't bother to answer.
sigh minority.
I've been up for ~30 hours.
If you want to be an idiot, be an idiot. Nothing I don't
On 16 Mar 2003 at 9:14, Nick Arnett wrote:
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority, especially at present.
The majority of people in France today are neo-Nazis? I'm starting to
wonder if I've completely lost my mind.
Once again, it was a misstype - minority.
I was thinking of something
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Nick Arnett
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 9:14 AM
To: Killer Bs Discussion
Subject: RE: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Erik Reuter
...
in an earlier thread, certainly looks to me like you picked this fight.
Absolutely. I jumped into the thread because I found what I read to be
important and inaccurate. So, sure, I
* Andrew Crystall [Sun, 16/03/2003 at 13:26 +]
On 16 Mar 2003 at 14:17, Jean-Marc Chaton wrote:
* Andrew Crystall [Sun, 16/03/2003 at 13:10 -]
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority, especially at present.
^
/me doesn't bother
---Original Message---
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There's also the matter of French preservation of language
and culture. It is a country where it can be illegal to use
a foreign word in business. When computers first became
widely available, phrases such as le software
and
---Original Message---
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There's also the matter of French preservation of language
and culture. It is a country where it can be illegal to use
a foreign word in business. When computers first became
widely available, phrases such as le software
and le
On 16 Mar 2003 at 10:21, Nick Arnett wrote:
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority, especially at present.
The majority of people in France today are neo-Nazis? I'm starting
to wonder if I've completely lost my mind.
Okay, now I realize what you meant to write. Sorry, had just
On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 11:05:53 -0500 (EST), John D. Giorgis wrote:
---Original Message---
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There's also the matter of French preservation of language
and culture. It is a country where it can be illegal to use
a foreign word in business. When computers
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Andrew Crystall
...
There's also the matter of French preservation of language and
culture. It is a country where it can be illegal to use a foreign
word in business. When computers first became
--- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Vous parlez l'histoire Francais comme une vache de
droite.
Et si vous comprenez (sans assistance), peut-etre
vous connaissez plue que
je pense.
(Which probably has some errors, but I don't get to
practice much these
days, despite almost a decade
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Vous parlez l'histoire Francais comme une vache de
droite.
Et si vous comprenez (sans assistance), peut-etre
vous connaissez plue que
je pense.
Here's how google translated that :-)
You speak the French history like a cow about
--- Jean-Marc Chaton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* Andrew Crystall [Sun, 16/03/2003 at 13:10 -]
France has a VERY strong Neo-Nazi majority,
especially at present.
^
/me doesn't bother to answer.
--
Jean-Marc
I think he means minority. TO
--- Jean-Marc Chaton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* Gautam Mukunda [Sat, 15/03/2003 at 20:12 -0800]
You forgot to mention that Germans had 1.5 Millions
French hostages held
in captivity in Germany.
Well, sure. Shit happened to a lot of people in the
Second World War. That doesn't change a moral
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And you criticizing someone for dropping names???
Next, will you be
criticizing someone for defending their argument
with their resume?
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have to admit, it didn't occur to me until
afterwards that Father Rutler
At 11:05 16-03-03 -0500, John Giorgis wrote:
There's also the matter of French preservation of language and
culture. It is a country where it can be illegal to use a foreign word
in business. When computers first became widely available, phrases such
as le software and le hardware came into
At 11:19 16-03-03 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:
People are so... weird.
Nah. All of us are normal, it's just you who's weird. :-)
Jeroen Jokes'R'Us van Baardwijk
_
Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website:
At 12:37 16-03-03 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
Mais tu parles l'histoire Francais comme un imbecile arrogant, pour je
parle francais aussi.
It's been twenty years since my last French class, but somewhat to my
surprise I had no problem translating that sentence to English. I could
also tell
- Original Message -
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
--- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Vous parlez l'histoire Francais comme
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
May I make a suggestion that will probably be
ignored. I'm betting both
Nick and Gautam are accurately reflecting what they
were taught. I'm
guessing they were taught different things. I'd be
interested in either a
detailed examination of the
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dan Minette
...
May I make a suggestion that will probably be ignored. I'm betting both
Nick and Gautam are accurately reflecting what they were taught. I'm
guessing they were taught different things.
--- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps it isn't clear that this is about context,
not facts. Clearly,
Gautam knows the facts. My objection is the failure
to contextualize the
Vichy government as a puppet of the Nazis, with
policies that did not
exist before or after. Its
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Gautam Mukunda
...
I would go so far as to say that the people of France
could hardly have fought less hard. But the Vichy
government, as I've pointed out several times, and as
you've never even
- Original Message -
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 10:03 PM
Subject: RE: Corrected French history (was RE: Deadlier Than War)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Dan Minette wrote:
Maybe some numbers would help. How many escaped from France with French
help? Gautam claimed that the French record was much worse than other
countries. Do you have numbers that indicate that the French did a heroic
job fighting the actions of the Vichy goverment that was
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Gautam Mukunda
...
Or, you know, the Russians, who had a pretty effective
partisan campaign going. Or the Serbs, in Yugoslavia.
The Vichy government could, at the least, have
pretended to care about
--- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Given your earlier misrepresentation of French
gratitude about its
liberation in WWII and now this comment, I'm
wondering if you simply don't
know much about France or you have some anti-French
prejudice, or it is
carelessness driven by your
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Gautam Mukunda
...
Since they seem to be made by someone who knows a
_lot_ less of France's history than I do, no, not
really. The Vichy government was a collaborationist
government of France that ran
--- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now, are we done? Do you want to at least pretend
to
be civil to me, and stop calling me a fascist or a
bigot,
Posturing yourself as a victim of name-calling
doesn't make you any more
correct, either. If you're feeling like I'm
describing a
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