Michael,
I think the thing is the attitude the company takes, it has been my
experience that large corporations with System Administrators and a
department that looks after the systems for users, usually exempt the
Software Developers from there normal stringent rules.
Now on that same token it
Man oh man, seems like I've managed to dive headfirst into a bit of a hornets'
nest here :)
I think many valid and interesting points have been raised in this thread.
While I will say, that I am still not a believer, I am certainly going to
have a bit of a rethink about my position on some of
Michael,
Hope you read this before bowing out...
I think, you need to understand one thing, nobody is saying that a
developer needs to be able to maintain a server, that is the Administrators
job. And there is a huge distinction between being able to install software
for development, and
While I have only very limited CF experience in working with a
setup where everyone develops locally, I have done quite a bit
of this in C#.
Something else before you bow out of the conversation - Microsoft spoils
its developers with Visual Studio. In the VS environment you have a
built-in
is where
it's at. You might have to invest some time up front, but you should
save effort when it comes to ongoing maintenance of the systems. And
when coupled with source control, it should help a larger team from
stepping on each others work.
--
Matthew Williams
Geodesic GraFX
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 5:53 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:
(I don't know if this is a particular Danish or European way to do things
- seems that things might be a bit different in the US)
...or just the specific companies you've worked for in the past, regardless
of
This can be done with ACF as well, as you don't really need an install
there, just getting the services in place works fine. Even if you want
to run the install, it's not all the time consuming. Heck, isn't there
an unofficial means of running a silent install for it?
You don't even need
Damn fine point, Cameron.
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Cameron Childress camer...@gmail.comwrote:
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 5:53 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk
wrote:
(I don't know if this is a particular Danish or European way to do things
- seems that things might be a bit
Where is that +infinity button, again? :-)
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Raymond Camden raymondcam...@gmail.comwrote:
Damn fine point, Cameron.
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Cameron Childress camer...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 5:53 AM, Michael Christensen
Good tips about developers being able to run software under other licensing
rules - I did not think that one through fully I can see now.
I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say, that
developers should be able to maintain CF and web server, as well as set up 3rd
Michael,
Most developers should know how to install ColdFusion, it is dead simple to
begin with, maintaining it well that is another story.
But what interests me is this statement
*The plans were eventually dropped, as it was deemed too expensive (in
terms of lost productivity) and adding an
Michael, I've noticed you, and others, have mentioned server maintenance.
To be clear, I think there is a -far- difference between someone who is an
expert in Apache and IIS tuning and someone double clicking to install
Apache. I don't think developers should be fine tuning Apache, or DB
servers.
@Andrew
Most developers should know how to install ColdFusion, it is dead simple to
begin with, maintaining it well that is another story.
If your premise is that we are talking about developers who are running a setup
where each person has a local CF server on his/her machine, then I would
Michael, I've noticed you, and others, have mentioned server maintenance.
To be clear, I think there is a -far- difference between someone who is an
expert in Apache and IIS tuning and someone double clicking to install
Apache. I don't think developers should be fine tuning Apache, or DB
servers.
Hard evidence, I will give you the worst case scenario.
Joe has opened a file and begun working on a file, in your current setup
that means the file will be locked from other developers, now he has gone
to lunch and within 5 minutes another developer needs to make changes to
that file. While one
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:
I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say,
that developers should be able to maintain CF and web server, as well as
set up 3rd party components etc. To me, that is like saying that any
One of the primary reasons a developer should have a clue what happens on
the server is so they can actually debug and diagnose problems instead of
saying to their client/boss it must be the hosts fault, lets get a new
host, which is hardly ever the cause of the problem.
I have seen plenty of
@Russ
I can certainly tell, that we have very different views as to which constitutes
a quote-unquote developer.
In keeping with the automotive analogies, I feel that what Raymond is
essentially saying, is that he would not hire you to drive a car, unless you
were a mechanic.
I feel
No what Ray is saying is that a developer should be able to turn the car on
and drive it, but to maintain the car you need professional help with it.
Michael I think you need to stop for a minute, a developer should know
there way around the Administrator, they should also know how to add sites
I admit, there may be every chance that the reason why I don't agree with you
is that A) I am not used to an environment in which developers develop locally
or (perhaps more frighteningly) B) I am just not very bright.
I am always willing to learn and expand my horizon though, so could you
setting up and managing servers is quite different to having a clue about
how your app works and some basic web server knowledge. A developer
certainly does not need to know the former, but he should at least have a
clue about his own development environment and be able to set it up as
close as
If I may, I think there are some core concept differences between Michaels
scenario and the others. What I am seeing in your questions and responses
points to a corporate structure where development is not a part of IT.
Correct me if I'm wrong there.
In many cases the structure is different,
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Michael Christensen wrote:
I admit, there may be every chance that the reason why I don't agree with
you is that A) I am not used to an environment in which developers develop
locally
I'd say that's a really good reason for you to have previously not agreed
PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF
@Russ
I can certainly tell, that we have very different views as to which
constitutes a quote-unquote developer.
In keeping with the automotive analogies, I feel that what Raymond is
essentially saying, is that he would not hire you to drive a car
I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say, that
developers should be able to maintain
CF and web server, as well as set up 3rd party components etc. To me, that is
like saying that any developer
should be able to set up a database server, know how DNS functions
Would I expect my chauffeur to be able to diagnose a flat tire and change it?
Absolutely.
Would I expect him to be able to diagnose and fix a problem in the engine
management system? Absolutely not.
There's a potentially large range of items between those two. I think
you would find that
On 31 January 2013 01:11, Raymond Camden raymondcam...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but if a developer doesn't know how to install ColdFusion,
or install a web server, than they aren't a web developer. (And they can
learn to this in one hour.) I have _never_ seen an org where IT was
They are some very good points Adam, but one has to ask would there not be,
considering that there was an actual number mentioned, at least one or two
Senior guys who could?
If not why not...
--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:
Andrew... most of my brain is still influenza-ridden or ejected into
tissues and has been discarded at some stage over the last few days.
So... err... *huh*?
Sorry mate, am not trying to be obtuse, but I'm just not able to connect
your dots today.
--
Adam
On 31 January 2013 10:52, Andrew
Wasn't this in regards to the the lack of experience in the original thread?
He seemed to indicate there was like 50+ developers, you would think out of
that many there is at least 1 or 2 very smart people who could train the
other developers.
--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite:
lets not just tar cf developers with that brush Adam.
It really applies to all developers.
PHP developers are just as bad if not worse, in fact even companies who
develop and sell PHP software (whmcs.com for example) are at a loss when
you get server caused by PHP, they have absolutely no idea
I agree with Russ. We have CF, .Net, Java, and PHP all in our environments
and the majority of the developers don't know how install and configure.
The senior people do, particularly with CF and Java. I've only worked in
large organizations where there is a distinct group in charge of
I have contracted at a few large orgs where they have sysadmin who do
everything, and even they didn't really know what they were doing.
Here are just a few things I have found in such orgs (cf specific) :-
cf badly configured in general
debugging left on on a production server
log files, class
On 31 January 2013 12:16, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:
lets not just tar cf developers with that brush Adam.
I wasn't mate. However I can only speak for developers I know, and the ones
I know are CF ones. Hence my wording. Which, incidentally, cannot really be
read as CF
All very true. Of course having dedicated sysadmin people is not *
automatically* a solution to CF server config. I was kinda meaning having
dedicated people competent at the task at hand. Which - fortunately - we
have here.
On 31 January 2013 13:02, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:48 AM, Adam Cameron
adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com wrote:
2. That said, I've found it reasonably common in larger teams (and in
companies that aren't just a specialist IT shop) wherein the developers
are
not special users when it comes to how they fit
But on their own machines, I'd imagine they should be able to install CF.
I would expect a designer to install Photoshop. (OK, maybe IT could
pre-image that since CS is so freaking huge.)
This has not been my experience at large organizations. People often
can't install software, period. That
On 31 January 2013 14:24, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote:
But on their own machines, I'd imagine they should be able to install CF.
I would expect a designer to install Photoshop. (OK, maybe IT could
pre-image that since CS is so freaking huge.)
This has not been my experience at
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Michael Christensen wrote:
For us at least, running on a shared codebase with 1 development server
and all code available via a webpath (usually mounted as a drive for
convenience) works quite well and has done so without major snafus for 10+
years.
running version/source control very
difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I posted
the question initially.
I think that I may have to go back and have a long, hard think about how we
will proceed from here.
If any of you, who are running a setup where each
, 2013 9:25 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF
I agree with Raymond, any developer should be able to maintain their own CF
and other things. As for Helicon mod_rewrite there is a lite version that
allows developers to run with a few limitations, but as they clearly state
the lite version
And how's that exception log you accidentally deleted going, Eric?
(sorry ;-)
--
Adam
On 31 January 2013 17:56, Eric Roberts ow...@threeravensconsulting.comwrote:
I was going to echo what Raymond and Andrew said as well. Every place I
have worked at had given developers admin rights to
And how's that exception log you accidentally deleted going, Eric?
http://instantrimshot.com/
Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/
Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber
On 29 January 2013 23:11, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:
Hi all!
At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control for
our CF.
I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort
+1 for git.
Slightly larger learning curve, and but Google is your friend.
If github, etc is not possible and you need a repo server in house look at
gitlab and Gitorious as possible interface solutions on top of your git
installation.
We are in the process of replacement of a git + redmine
Michael,
First you need to switch to developers running ColdFusion on their
machines, there is no way in hell that you can be effective with any Source
Control with that scenario. Then you need to use something like Subversive
which I believe is the better one, although a lot of people on here
Disagree Adam...
SVN is still the best to use if the development team will never be
distributed across many locations, and even if it is but contained with the
same company securely, SVN is still the better way to go.
--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:
to switch to developers running ColdFusion on their
machines, there is no way in hell that you can be effective with any Source
Control with that scenario. Then you need to use something like Subversive
which I believe is the better one, although a lot of people on here swear
by subclipse
I don't know, I think that is a decent comparison, maybe a bit GIT biased
but I guess that maybe depends on who wrote it.
I am not sure I know the answer to this, but are there Jira hooks for GIT?
I find these extremely useful when using Jira as a ticketing system so you
can see all the changes
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Adam Cameron wrote:
Before you go too far down the SVN route...
To me, Git vs SVN is sort of like a Mac vs PC argument. Git is good, SVN is
good. They are both VERY VERY widely used and I expect both to be heavily
used for the foreseeable future.
Like most
I agree with Cameron on this one. We recently moved from SVN to Git because
we found that within our team it facilitated our workflow. We started
implementing the practices outlined by Git Flow and that's been working
really well. That doesn't mean that Git is better than SVN, it's just
better in
The downside is that in a team environment, you constantly need to merge
and test and merge and test and commit. So you should be connected to the
Source Control to do this, and where I have found GIT to be a pain in the
ass with when multiple changes to a file can impact you.
But I agree
company we're once again talking about setting up source control
for
our CF.
I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a
central
server, so that the entire team can access it.
I've looked
. But
that's really not a hey, let's get you started with source control kind
of conversation.
I'll just say that anyone that thinks Git is difficult in this area has
either a) never tried Git, or b) didn't read/understand the documentation
or have someone help them through it. I've helped folks move
And I'll have to disagree with you, Andrew...
Having worked extensively in both Subversion and Git, I find Git to be a
much more robust tool, providing a lot more flexibility, and huge gains
in overall workflow. Anytime I have to move back towards Subversion it
is somewhat painful. All of
What Cutter said. :-)
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades
cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote:
And I'll have to disagree with you, Andrew...
Having worked extensively in both Subversion and Git, I find Git to be a
much more robust tool, providing a lot more
about Git at the moment, the last I also looked was that you
also need 3rd party tools to even run Git on Windows to begin with, which
is something I personally don't like
Now don't get me wrong, I do understand its benefits across distributed
developers that is a great part of these type of source
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:
I'll just say that anyone that thinks Git is difficult in this area has
either a) never tried Git, or b) didn't read/understand the documentation
or have someone help them through it.
I think Git gives you a whole
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:
In Open Source and the like I would recommend Git or the
like, but expect a very huge learning curve.
The context of the OP is that of getting started with source control - any
source control. In that context, the learning curve exists
to the (apparent) assertion
that it's difficult. Committing and merging is one of the areas where SVN
can't even begin to compare with Git in terms of simplicity - or power. But
that's really not a hey, let's get you started with source control kind
of conversation.
I'll just say that anyone
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:
Till then my view is not going
to change,
LOL. That's what we all love about you, my friend! :-)
in a team SVN is far better when you know how to use it right.
And there are countless teams who have used both - correctly - who
, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:
In Open Source and the like I would recommend Git or the
like, but expect a very huge learning curve.
The context of the OP is that of getting started with source control - any
source control. In that context, the learning curve exists no matter what
Whatever Matt, you took that right out of context.
--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 3:01 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Scott
Out of context for this thread? This thread was a question about how to do
xyz with Subversion. Anything about using Git, the kewl kids are using Git,
Git is Defacto, etc etc etc, is out of context.
Every technology is a tool and each tool has it's uses. Just because some have
manage to
2013 23:11, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:
Hi all!
At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control
for our CF.
I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a central
My apologies. I came into the thread late, and had only seen bits about
getting started. I didn't realize that the OP was asking specific
questions about SVN.
I still agree with Adam, though, that one getting started with source
control should look at Git as well.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:19
: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:24 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF
To the OP: I'm really sorry to have accidentally turned this thread into one
of those my toy is better than your toy kind of discussions. That's
probably not what you were wanting :-(
--
Adam
On 30 January 2013 09:42
what the OP had said. Also if one
ignores the specific vagaries of various people's opinions on what's hard
or easy about both, basic source control processes are as easy on one as on
the other. I think Git might go a bit further as far as total
functionality goes, but to be honest I don't know
I think the interesting thing is that how can something be defacto when the
market share for that product is like 3% where SVN has a market share of
well over 50%.
So 5 million users against a few thousand must be wrong...
--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:
.
Eric
-Original Message-
From: Matt Quackenbush [mailto:quackfu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:02 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF
+infinity
I agree with Adam here completely. SVN is mejor que nada, but if you're in
an environment where anyone other
I completely disagree. Going from no source control to source control with
SVN is a lot easier than going from no source control to GIT. Same with
going from SVN to Git. SVN is WAY easier to use and learn.
-Original Message-
From: Matt Quackenbush [mailto:quackfu...@gmail.com]
Sent
I agree Andrew...
-Original Message-
From: Andrew Scott [mailto:andr...@andyscott.id.au]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:57 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF
See now I find SVN far easier when you use it right, when merging code and
my opinion it is more
are much happier in Mercurial than in SVN IMO.
That said, the most important thing is to use some form of source control,
whether it be SVN, Git, Hg or whatever.
Will
~|
Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now!
http://www.amazon.com
approach? Very much so.
Is it a good solution? Maybe not for every company, but it works for us.
I understand, that our setup makes running version/source control very
difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I posted the
question initially.
I think that I may have
running version/source control very
difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I posted
the question initially.
I think that I may have to go back and have a long, hard think about how
we will proceed from here.
If any of you, who are running a setup where each developer
approach? Very much so.
Is it a good solution? Maybe not for every company, but it works for us.
I understand, that our setup makes running version/source control very
difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I
posted
the question initially.
I think that I may
While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each
developer to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the time
spent by the IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus our
backend/admin software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.
I'll guess this is more a situation with IT restricting software installs
to workstations.
Heck we've even had problems with advanced users (who have been granted
administration rights to their workstations) abusing the privilege by
running torrents and other inappropriate software.
Government
I agree with Raymond, any developer should be able to maintain their own CF
and other things. As for Helicon mod_rewrite there is a lite version that
allows developers to run with a few limitations, but as they clearly state
the lite version is great for developers who are developing with a few
understand, that our setup makes running version/source control very
difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I posted
the question initially.
I think that I may have to go back and have a long, hard think about how we
will proceed from here.
If any of you, who
Hi all!
At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control for our
CF.
I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've gathered,
that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a central server, so
that the entire team can access it.
I've
all!
At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control for
our CF.
I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a central
server, so that the entire team can access it.
I've
www.cfwebtools.com
wilg...@trunkful.com
www.trunkful.com
On Jan 29, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:
Hi all!
At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control
for our CF.
I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
Thank you all for the great answers.
I would like to throw a (potential) monkey wrench into the situation by saying,
that we develop on a common set of files.
How does that play into things?
Once again thanks for your time.
On 6/10/2010 6:59 PM, Michael Christensen wrote:
Thank you all for the great answers.
I would like to throw a (potential) monkey wrench into the situation by
saying, that we develop on a common set of files.
How does that play into things?
If that is the case then the distributed
It's a really good question, and one that I have no real good answer for.
I think if you are used to working on a common set of files, you do things a
little bit differently than when you have your own copy.
We rarely have the issue of people leaving broken files, not in the least
because
[mailto:mich...@strib.dk]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2010 8:29 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: What version-/source control are you using (if any)?
It's a really good question, and one that I have no real good answer for.
I think if you are used to working on a common set of files, you do
,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/
-Original Message-
From: Michael Christensen [mailto:mich...@strib.dk]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2010 8:29 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: What version-/source control are you using (if any)?
It's a really good question, and one that I have
remember that you get what you pay for :-)
.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com
-Original Message-
From: Cameron Childress [mailto:camer...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:27 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: What version-/source control are you
We're using SVN and it's great. Throws a fit sometimes if you don't follow
the procedures exactly but it's solid.
andy
-Original Message-
From: Michael Christensen [mailto:mich...@strib.dk]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:35 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: What version-/source control
September 2010 11:35 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: What version-/source control are you using (if any)?
We're thinking about setting up version-/source control for our CF code.
What are people out there using? What works, what doesn't
On 28/09/2010 23:34, Michael Christensen wrote:
We're thinking about setting up version-/source control for our CF code.
What are people out there using? What works, what doesn't?
We use both SVN and Mercurial (Hg).
The outside world has SVN to download from but internaly we have
staggered
Actually I disagree with what is best to go with based on your OS.
It is all going to boil down to your requirements, for us we needed to know
what changes had been made at the ticket level. And as we already had Jira
installed it was a no brainer to use Subversion to do this.
What this means
http://www.visualsvn.com
On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:
We're thinking about setting up version-/source control for our CF code.
What are people out there using? What works, what doesn't
...@gmail.com]
Sent: 29 September 2010 12:12
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: What version-/source control are you using (if any)?
http://www.visualsvn.com
On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Michael Christensen
mich...@strib.dkwrote:
We're thinking about setting up version-/source control for our CF
On 29/09/2010 9:28 PM, Russ Michaels wrote:
I have used this and it works great. Be careful not to listen to the
Linux-fanboys they slag this off purely because it is a windows solution,
however it does exactly what it says on the tin, I have never had any issues
with it.
I might add to my
: Michael Christensen [mailto:mich...@strib.dk]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:35 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: What version-/source control are you using (if any)?
We're thinking about setting up version-/source control for our CF code.
What are people out there using? What works, what doesn't
Not to mention it's is free, and great support.
Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/
-Original Message-
From: Kym Kovan [mailto:dev-li...@mbcomms.net.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 29 September 2010 9:50 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: What version-/source control are you using
-talk
Subject: Re: What version-/source control are you using (if any)?
On 29/09/2010 9:28 PM, Russ Michaels wrote:
I have used this and it works great. Be careful not to listen to the
Linux-fanboys they slag this off purely because it is a windows solution,
however it does exactly what
thinking about setting up version-/source control for our CF code.
What are people out there using? What works, what doesn't?
~|
Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now!
http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael
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