[URGENT] ApacheCon US 2006 hotel rates go up TONIGHT (13 September)

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Urgent Notice:

The hotel rate for the Austin Hilton will go from $135.00 to over
$270.00 Wednesday September 13 at midnight Central time.

ACT NOW!  Reserve a room for ApacheCon US 2006.

Enjoy Keynote speakers Cliff Stoll and Howard Tayler –

5 tracks of top speakers and dynamic presentations.

But don't get caught staying on the other side of town. Call
1-800-236-1592 or go to http://us.apachecon.com/ and into
the registration area.

ApacheCon Planners
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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ApacheCon Europe 2005 Call for Participation is open

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The Call for Participation for ApacheCon Europe 2005 is open!
ApacheCon will be returning to Europe for the first time since
2000, and this time we'll be in Stuttgart, Germany, from the
18th through the 22nd of July, 2005.

If you'd like to give a presentation, please go to the Web site
(http://ApacheCon.Com/2005/EU/) and submit a proposal.  Or more
than one!  *The deadline is 4 March 2005.*

Please feel free to forward this message far and wide.
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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Re: Is ASL2.0 not "GPL-compatible" ??

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Different thread, so my self-imposed ban does not fully apply.  And
I'm speaking up here to once again correct a misstatement.

Stephen McConnell wrote:
> 
> The normal oversight process is closely tied to the policies and
> procedures on the ground.  Things like release procedures, release
> manager, etc.  We have several statements from members of the board that
> policies and procedures established at the PMC level are in effect null
> and void.

No, there are no such sweeping statements whatsoever by anyone.  What
*has* been stated is that any rules a PMC sets up that conflict with
ASF policies are void -- and *only* conflicting ones.
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Stephen McConnell wrote:
> 
> Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
> disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
> an open community.  Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
> address this.  You decision to abstain from further discussion within
> this context is an appropriate move and I commend and applaud this
> decision.

Last message on this: None of the above is clear.  You are guilty out
of your own mouth/keyboard of ascribing to others -- in this case me --
the motivations you want to believe they have.  Your paragraph above
demonstrates yet again that you will twist anything you can to support
your position.

By refraining from trying to deal with you further I am in no way
suggesting that I believe you to be correct.  Disengaging from a debate
does not equate to giving up and accepting the other side's argument.

And to specifically and explicitly give the lie to your assertions above,
Stephen, I will gladly discuss any of the named issues with anyone capable
of doing so reasonably.  I just no longer consider that to include you.  I
am not 'abstaining from further discussion' on them -- I am abstaining from
attempting to discuss them with *you*.  So go ahead and find someone else
who supports your position, and can participate in reasonable discussion,
and get that person to engage me on those topics right here on this list.
Go ahead and feed that person lines behind the scenes if you like, to make
sure that you feel you're being represented.  But don't bother trying to
represent yourself any more, at least not to me -- you have reduced your
own credibility to less than zero in my opinion through your choice of
tactics.
- --
#kenP-(}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Stephen McConnell wrote:
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> I realize that this is little more than a filibuster, and I probably
>> should be smacked for feeding *this* troll
> 
> *smack*
> 
> Stephen.

Excellent, Geir!  Reponding to Stephen, you 'should be smacked for
feeding the troll.'  Stephen himself smacked you.  Ergo, Stephen
evidently agrees that you're feeding a troll, and, since you were
reponding to him, he's the one trolling.

ROTFLMAO! 
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Stephen McConnell wrote:
>> 
>> No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF.
>> Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
> 
> Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards the
> Avalon community.

No more than, say, the federal government is to citizens of a state
when that state passes laws that encroach on federal authority.  I.e.,
not at all.  Things stand until they're tested.

Bravo, Stephen; you've now competely and utterly convinced me that
you're an accomplished troll.  It's evidently impossible to hold a
reasoned discussion with you.  Apparently you're not the least bit
interested in Truth; all you're interested in is Being Right.  Or
so it seems to me.

Until you demonstrate that you can at least attempt dispassion and
objectivity, I don't intend to waste any more of my time responding
to your trolls.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
> BUT, I *would* appreciate if you spent some of your intellect looking at the 
> more important stuff raised in this thread under new Subject.

(I don't see any new thread yet.)  If the stuff is raised as hypothetical
issues, sure.  I'll attempt to be critical and unbiased as I always try
(sometimes woefully unsuccessfully) to be.

> P.S. Every Sanagendamgagwedweinini on Google refers back to you. Is this some 
> marker to all your doings on the web?

It's in my .sig and on my Web pages.  AFAIK, no-one else ever uses that
word.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Stephen McConnell wrote:
>>
>> Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure.  Of custom,
>> perhaps, but not of procedure.  This is another dead horse that
>> should stop getting beaten.
>
> A set of polices and procedures were established and these procedures
> governing the decision making processes within the Avalon PMC.  These
> policies established rules concerning discussion, voting, and reporting.
> Unfortunately Aaron decided that he was above these rules, a notion
> supported by the Chairman and a number of the members of the board.

No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF.
Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.

> There is absolute indisputable evidence of Aaron disregard for these
> procedures and the opinion of the PMC. Lets' not even argue about that.

I believe there may have been disagreement between Aaron and some
members of the PMC.  Certainly not a majority, in which case the
statement 'Aaron disregarded the opinion of the PMC' is just a handwave.
If the entire PMC wanted a different approach taken, or even a majority
did, then perhaps your assertion migh be consodered to have some validity.

In addition, 'disregard' means 'ignore' -- which is not the same as
'considering but not choosing to accept.'  So I *do* dispute your claims.
'Let's not argue' ?  Then let's stop asserting controversial positions
and saying they're fact and not worth arguing about.

> Instead I would suggest you think about the impact of these actions on
> the PMC members and the community. The breakdown in trust underpins the
> subject of this thread and every single person subscribed to this list
> is better off for knowing that.  So instead of defending the ASF - how
> about thinking about strengthening what you have by at least listening
> and perhaps suggesting ways in which we can prevent this in the future.

If I believed there was something improper here that should be prevented
in the future, aye.  Since I don't, then defending the ASF, and the positions
taken which I consider correct and valid, is certainly preferable to
*not* defending them and letting assertions I consider rubbish to prevail
unchallenged and by default.
- --
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Stephen McConnell wrote:
> 
> OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.  

I don't intend to touch this remark.

> Open up the Avalon PMC archives and let's really get down to real metal
> and in the process I think we will clean up more that a couple of
> popular misconceptions.  In fact publishing this stuff would be in best
> interests of the foundation - unless of course somebody has something to
> hide, and surely, that's not the case, not here.

As has been pointed out, the PMC archives are open to any and all ASF
members.  They can examine them and draw their own conclusions.  If
any members do so, and feel that I, Noel, Greg -- or Niclas or Stephen --
or anyone else -- is misrepresenting things, I dearly hope they will
speak up and say, 'my examination of the PMC mail archives shows me that
the support *x* and don't support *y*.'
- --
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
> Since you ask me so harshly to keep under the lid what the exchange was in 
> the 
> coming mails, I can apparently not clarify where the 'solution path' led to, 
> can I?

This is such complete BS I'm almost speechless.  You turn 'ask before posting'
into 'harshly asking you to keep under the lid.'  And you can't explain what
solution *you* proposed without quoting *me*?

And if you proposed a solution, why are you also claiming that I would never
support the unsolved arrangement?  You can't have it both ways.

> Yet IMNSHO the establishment of the Excalibur TLP was more balkanization 
> along 
> people than technology, than the establishment of a Merlin/Metro TLP. So why 
> did that happen? 

Um, because other people disagree with your interpretation?
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
> That FUD is prevalent in ASF establishment, against its own contributors, for 
> unknown reasons, possibly unintentionally, by an unnamed, possibly unknown, 
> person or a group of persons. And that FUD is being amplified by everyone 
> else into facts, and *I* definately don't like these kind of patterns.

The only FUD I see here is that which you yourself are spreading.  I and
others are stating facts and personal opinions; you are the one waving around
the conspiracy theories.

> I think there is procedural value of walking through what have happened. A 
> bit 
> of transparency among how this organization is run vs how it states it is 
> run.

How it is run and how it is stated to have been run are one and the same.
That's my opinion, and apparently the opinion of the vast majority of
people involved and observing.  Just because the results don't align with
anyone's personal preferences does not make that equation false, nor
invalidate either one componment or the other.

> I would hope that the Board has an interest in that scrutiny of its 
> actions is regularly exercised, to clear its honorable members of any 
> misdoings, doesn't it?

Scrutiny, yes.  Repeated baseless polemic is not interesting.  Scrutiny
involves examining something to see what's going on.  It does not mean
going in with preconceived notions and the intent to do nothing but
find information supportive of them.

You don't seem the least bit interested in scrutinising anything.  You
seem solely interested in trying to convince the readership that your
view is the only true one, and that your desired outcome didn't come
about because it was thwarted by some evil cabal of secret conspirators.

Maybe that's not what you're trying to do, but it's sure how it's coming
across to me.  'Mandate'; 'FUD'; 'character assassination'; the specific
situation under discussion being inflated to 'FUD is prevalent in ASF
establishment' -- sheesh.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>>
>> A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because
>> they don't agree with you is not acceptable.
> 
> It is a single occurrence in time, and in my book everyone is allowed to make 
> occassional mistakes. You make them, I make them, everyone makes them.
> I think the difference of "Hey, Steve that is not acceptable!" warning, to a 
> categorical character assassination across the ASF is a bit much.

No, I don't think it was a single occurrence.  And there you go again with
another highly charged term.  What's interesting is that *you're* the one
that keeps associating Stephen's name with this stuff.  The only time I
mentioned him by name was when I was correcting the mistake about
authority.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:

> On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> 
>> Point?
> 
> That "consensus by attrition" is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural 
> occurring thing in all projects (people do leave healthy projects) which is 
> replenished with new blood (but in our case that is also turned into 
> something bad).
> SO the point is; "Consensus by attrition" is FUD, and hard to argue against, 
> yet said enough many times, it has turned into "a fact".

People leaving a project for J Random Reason is acceptable attrition.

People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is, too.

A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because
they don't agree with you is not acceptable.

Charges of the latter were levied, and as I recall were supported by the
email archives.  If so (i.e., if I'm not misremembering), it's a factual
observation of behaviour, not FUD.  I suspect Noel already has the
relevant source documents ready to hand if necessary.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:

> On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>
>> Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with
>> a technical justification.  The issue is how a community deals with those
>> vetos, and how progress can be made by resolving them.
> 
> So, please bring to the table a particular case, since I fail to recall any 
> such veto being ignored and/or not worked on to be resolved, other than the 
> mentioned Leo Simons' (was he even PMC at the time? still not ignored.) one, 
> which got caught up in a larger mess.

Out of simple curiousity, what would this accomplish?  I am not being
flip.  It seems clear that there are aspects on which all the players
are unlikely to ever agree, so this would seem likely to prolong the
vocal non-agreement.  The Avalon project has been shut down; parts
have moved outside the ASF and are under active development there.
What is there that requires that this become the Thread That Wouldn't
Die, and why?

If there's a reasonable reason, cool.  Otherwise, maybe we can move
on.  There'll be no 'winner' here.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 December 2004 05:05, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>>
>> Regardless of whether there was any 'right' or 'wrong' position, it
>> appears that there were irreducible differences.  I only recall one
>> side expressing a willingness to compromise.  My memory may be imperfect,
>> though.
> 
> Now, if I have no sense of "collaboration", "taking care of the Legacy" and 
> "compromise" (in this case balancing my time between Excalibur vs Merlin), 
> then I have no clue what you guys expect from people.

And I have no clew why you think I'm speaking specifically about you,
nor why you're dragging 'legacy' and 'collaboration' into your reply to
me.

>> ISTR some issues about ignored vetos and vetos without sufficient
>> justification.
> 
> (Don't know what ISTR stands for)

'I Seem To Recall'

> The only veto I know of that has been in dispute, is Leo Simons veto against 
> the new site, which in defense I say;
> 1. It came in late, long after the change was executed.
> 2. His issue was regarding the change of wording in the specification of the 
> AF4.2, which he claimed was an incompatible change for component authors.
> 3. In the midst of that clarification, heaps of people stepped in with other 
> issues, murking what is on the table of a veto and what is not;

There is no statute of limitations on vetos.  There is no deadline.
When a veto is made, it must be supported by technical justification.
There are two ways to deal with a veto: 1) Address the concerns and
get the vetoer to rescind it; or 2) let it stand and the vetoed aspect
stays out (getting removed if necessary) of the code.  It can't get
much clearer than that.

>> > The agenda was to promote Merlin
>> > into a platform for component oriented architecture. When that was
>> > considered being against approx half the PMC and some additional
>> > developers, we started the process of taking Merlin to TLP, but the
>> > Excalibur group just needed to be better, and by throwing in a second
>> > proposal, at least one member of the Board intervened privately, and
>> > asked us to drop the Merlin TLP and forge ahead with the new vision. Now,
>> > I call that a mandate.
>>
>> Please clarify what you mean by 'mandate' here.  That the board was
>> mandating that you drop the Merlin TLP idea?
> 
> Mandate that the Board, or parts thereof, thought it was better to spin the 
> Legacy into a new project and let Avalon grow into a Merlin-based community 
> and the visions we had.

That's nothing like a mandate in any of its definitions.  You appear
to be using heavily loaded terminology to excuse something, and using it
incorrectly at that.  Someone privately makes a request, and you're
interpreting it as an official position of all (or a majority) of the
board?

>> > Yet, Excalibur TLP
>> > without me and Steve was manna from heaven for this group, but it was
>> > definately a matter of balkanization along people and not technology.
>> > Something Mr Coar would never agree to.
>>
>> One thing I don't agree to is people putting words in my mouth.  Please
>> cease doing so.
> 
> So you want the quote? You have been hammering me before for publicizing 
> private mails
> 
> 
> On Monday 27 September 2004 22:37, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
>> > So let's cut straight to the chase;
>> > What are the severe reservations that you seem to have against the Metro
>> > proposal? Just spill it out so we can solve it :o)
>>
>> it appears to me to be a balkanisation based on people rather than on
>> technology.
> 
> 
> That was the only reason you stated against the Metro proposal. I can accept 
> that "never" is a bit strong, but I can't interpret your response in any 
> other way.

Then you're being uncommonly obtuse, and apparently only to suit your own
purposes.  'I have a serious reservation about this because it appears to
be xxx' is a lng way from 'I will never agree to this because it is
definitely xxx.'  And evidently you did absolutely nothing to 'solve' (your
word) or otherwise address my reservation -- either that or you're hauling
out my remark sans context in order to support your current point.

Either way, you put words in my mouth, and I requested that you stop.
Dredging out personal email (which, yes, you didn't bother to ask about first,
but in *this case* I don't mind) doesn't make that acceptable.  So this
handwave doesn't excus

Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Stephen McConnell wrote:
> 
> Irrespective
> of the validity of this opinion - members of the board actively
> encouraged Aaron to ignore any PMC opinion and take an "executive"
> decision.

Provide citations supporting this, please.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

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Stephen McConnell wrote:
> 
> Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
> PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated.

Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure.  Of custom,
perhaps, but not of procedure.  This is another dead horse that
should stop getting beaten.  Complain about the violation of custom,
if you like, but stop stating/insinuating that ASF policies/procedures
were violated.  It didn't happen, at least not in the situation under
discussion.

> Maybe
> this is about sending a message to some of the members of the board that
> coercion has consequence.

Actually, I'm seeing quite a number of attempts here to 'send messages' to
several different destinations.  So far most of them seem to be getting
marked 'return to sender.'  Or perhaps they aren't really there, and I need
to have my prescription changed so I don't see 'em any more.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
>> Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as 
>> poisonous as Avalon was at the time? 
> 
> 4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want to 
> make it hard for everyone else? There has to be more than one to have a 
> disagreement.

Regardless of whether there was any 'right' or 'wrong' position, it
appears that there were irreducible differences.  I only recall one
side expressing a willingness to compromise.  My memory may be imperfect,
though.

>> The only ones willing to keep committing were
>> those who were determined to bulldoze there agenda into the repository.
> 
> 5. In a positive atmosphere, it would be called; "Prepared to take action, 
> when paralysis had set into the community."

ISTR some issues about ignored vetos and vetos without sufficient
justification.

> The agenda was to promote Merlin 
> into a platform for component oriented architecture. When that was considered 
> being against approx half the PMC and some additional developers, we started 
> the process of taking Merlin to TLP, but the Excalibur group just needed to 
> be better, and by throwing in a second proposal, at least one member of the 
> Board intervened privately, and asked us to drop the Merlin TLP and forge 
> ahead with the new vision. Now, I call that a mandate.

Please clarify what you mean by 'mandate' here.  That the board was mandating
that you drop the Merlin TLP idea?

> Yet, Excalibur TLP
> without me and Steve was manna from heaven for this group, but it was 
> definately a matter of balkanization along people and not technology. 
> Something Mr Coar would never agree to.

One thing I don't agree to is people putting words in my mouth.  Please
cease doing so.

>> Then why in the world are you bringing your grief back here?
> 
> 8. "grief". My dear little boy, if you call this "grief" you don't know much 
> about life. Call me when someone really near to you pass away, and then we 
> can talk about grief.

I believe this is a cultural miscommunication.  I think Aaron meant grief
as in 'giving grief':

>> In retrospect, do I regret that we now are active outside ASF? No, not at
>> all.
> 
> Then why in the world are you bringing your grief back here?

'If you have no regrets about having moved outside the ASF, why do you
care what happens there and why are you contributing to this thread?'

Aaron can correct me if I'm wrong.

In any event, on the face of it I consider your 'my dear little boy' remark
to be condescending, offensive, and uncalled-for.  But that too might be
a lingual/cultural misunderstanding.

> Maybe I am just satanistic sadist who like to kick a dead horse. Maybe I 
> happen to think that a great injustice has been made, and don't like when 
> people make statements portrayed as facts, when they at the most can be 
> called perceptions.

Heh.  Sounds like the pot and kettle calling each other black.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
> Smoke and Mirrors

Not at all.  Stephen was incorrect, and I was providing the
correction.  I passed no judgement about whether any of the
decisions were the right ones, only stated that they were valid.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Stephen McConnell wrote:
>> 
>> The Board had nothing to do with these directions or choices. Our only
>> (recent) involvment was that the VP in charge of Avalon asked us to
>> terminate the project, so we did.
> 
> A board decision taken *without* the endorsement of the Avalon PMC,
> *without* a vote of the community and clearly in contradiction with the
> expressed interests of the committers at that time.  
> 
> Let's not try and rewrite history just yet.

Let's understand the factual basis of things first.  A project
chair doesn't *have* to have endorsement from anyone else.  It
is ultimately responsible for the project, and has the necessary
authority to do whatever is appropriate.  The fact that most, if
not all, projects are led by consensus of the PMC, with the chairs
functioning essentially as peers, is a tribute to both the viability
of the structure and the abilities and understanding of the chairs
themselves.

So the PMC chair was perfectly within its authority to request that
the board terminate the project.  And from what I read on the Avalon
lists, my clear impression is that the action had majority support
within the project if not a consensus.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Update to mailing lists page

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> 
> The link is very nice! Can you add the cvs mail lists to see the activity
> of them too?

The page is for *all* public ASF lists.  'Public' meaning 'anyone
can subscribe without having to be moderated.'  If there are
lists that aren't showing up, it means that they require
subscriptions to be moderated.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Update to mailing lists page

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Ben Laurie wrote:
> 
> The usual answer is to put one axis at the left, one at the right.

Excellent; that's a useful suggestion for a solution.  Done.  The
left-hand side now shows the highwater mark for subscriptions, and
the right-hand side shows it for posts.

> I must've missed the Page Length Tax announcement ;-)

Didn't you hear?  Tsk, tsk..
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Update to mailing lists page

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

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Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:

> this is cool!  Any chance we can get labeled x and y axis?

No, not unless you can convince of a way to do it that makes
sense.  As I said,

> The graph is for showing trends *only*.  Both the post-count and
> the subscriber-count lines are scaled properly, but each uses
> its *own* scale to fit nicely into the chart.  So you can safely
> say, 'Cool!  More and more people are subscribing!' but not
> necessarily, 'Cool!  Four people subscribed last Tuesday!'

Trying to put numbers on it would require two sets of numbers, in
two colours, on both axes.  And to make them legible would require
enlarging the image, which would make the page considerably longer.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Update to mailing lists page

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

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Yoav Shapira wrote:
> 
> Echo Geir's "this is cool!" sentiment.  Just to reconfirm, this is public 
> data,
> correct?  That is, I can post a link to this page on my blog, or on one of the
> public mailing lists itself...

Correct.  There's nothing here that couldn't be scraped from public
archives.  I'm just getting the date directly from the source rather
than scraping.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Update to mailing lists page

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

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I've revamped the Apache mailing lists data page a little bit.
(http://www.apache.org/~coar/mlists.html)  For one thing, the
moderator-supplied description for each list has moved to *below*
the list statistics.  For another, I've added an activity graph
for each list.

The graph shows subscription and post activity for up to the last
90 samples.  Since the sample interval is 1 day, that generally means
three months.  If samples aren't collected for a week, though, it
means the graph will cover 97 days, with the uncollected week's
data silently missing from the graph.

The graph is for showing trends *only*.  Both the post-count and
the subscriber-count lines are scaled properly, but each uses
its *own* scale to fit nicely into the chart.  So you can safely
say, 'Cool!  More and more people are subscribing!' but not
necessarily, 'Cool!  Four people subscribed last Tuesday!'

I've attached a sample graph from the derby-dev list.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Page of mailing list data

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Henri Yandell wrote:
> 
> Just looking for an easier way than querying the mail lists one at a time. 
> Every now and then we discover that a list is inadequately moderated and 
> so I'm trying to think of ways to maintain oversight there.

The mailing list query responder works on regex patterns..

I've moved this to http://www.apache.org/~coar/mlists.html
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Page of mailing list data

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Henri Yandell wrote:
> 
> The # of moderators would be good to have on there, even better would be 
> the apache logon of the moderators.

I don't see why..  that information is already available to committers,
and I'm not at all sure we want it any more public than that.

> For the first statistical report, could you specify what the collection 
> period was?

It's running daily now.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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ApacheCon news: On-site coding contest!

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News Flash!

IBM is sponsoring a special contest at ApacheCon 2004 US, and donating some very
nice prizes, including a first prize of a ThinkPad model T42, with 1GiB of
memory, 40GiB of disk, a CD-RW/DVD-ROM, and integrated wireless networking.
Another major prize will be a free round trip airline ticket (from anywhere in
the world) with full registration packet to ApacheCon 2005 EU and complimentary
registration to ApacheCon 2005 US.

The contest involves developing code using the Apache Derby package
(http://incubator.apache.org/derby/). There is documentation about the package
on the project's Web site, and one of the ApacheCon tutorials the Sunday before
the conference is a half-day devoted solely to the Derby software ? and to make
it even more useful, that tutorial has been made free! So if you're interested
in participating but aren't sure what Apache Derby is all about, there's still
time and opportunity to learn from the documentation or in an intensive class
given by one of the community developers.

The contest is to take place ON-SITE at ApacheCon, and the rules and details
will be announced at the conference Opening Plenary. Submissions for the contest
will be accepted from Monday morning until Tuesday evening, after which they
will be evaluated by a panel of judges. The results of the contest will be
announced at the Closing Plenary session on Wednesday evening, and the prizes
will be awarded at that time. NOTE: You must be present at the Closing Plenary
in order to win any prizes!

No details about the contest rules or parameters will be available until the
conference Opening Plenary, so please don't ask! :-)
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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Re: Page of mailing list data

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David Crossley wrote:
>
> That is a very useful resource, thanks Ken.
> I see that some projects have their "cvs|svn|scm"
> lists shown, but others do not, e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Lists will not appear on that page if they are private -- namely,
subscription-moderated.  If someone has to approve your subscription,
it isn't an open list.  Looking at the database, I see that one commit
list for Tomcat, one for Geronimo, and the Forrest list are all private.
All the others appear to be public.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Page of mailing list data

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David Crossley wrote:
> 
> That is a very useful resource, thanks Ken.
> I see that some projects have their "cvs|svn|scm"
> lists shown, but others do not, e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Lists will not appear on that page if they are private -- namely,
subscription-moderated.  If someone has to approve your subscription,
it isn't an open list.  Looking at the database, I see that one commit
list Tomcat, one for Geronimo, and the Forrest list are all private.
All the others appear to be public.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Page of mailing list data

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

I've been collecting data about the Apache mailing lists for months,
and have finally gotten around to formatting them and making the
results available.

All public ASF lists are now listed, along with some interesting
factoidae, at

http://www.apache.org/~coar/mlists

Barring accidents or coding/environmental errors, this page
should get updated on a daily basis.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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Re: Style of community building

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:

> On Wednesday 29 September 2004 06:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
>> And when asked *expliticly* to address our concerns about
>> community-style, you just look the other way.
> 
> Until this day, I have not been interested in history, there is no point at 
> pointing fingers and place blame. I have a long list of people (myself, 
> Stephen, you Stefano, and *many* others) who have their fair share of blame 
> in the Avalon 'disaster'. Don't point fingers at others without pointing at 
> your own nose first, is my motto.

the cases are not parallel.  the fact that someone has behaved incorrectly
does not provide licence for others to do so as well.  the 'he did it first'
defence does not wash.

the cases are not parallel.  in this case, stefano is not *just* a peer;
he is also someone to whom the projects and individuals are answerable,
as a member and director of the foundation.

perhaps there was insufficient context in stefano's remark; i myself am not
sure precisely to what he is referring.  however, your response did not
address his remark either way.

'not been interested in history': have you never heard that 'those who will
not learn from history are condemned to repeat it' ?  how are lessons to
be learnt is not from examining past situations and their resolutions?
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again

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Dave Brondsema wrote:
> 
> I know from experience that it took a while for me to become aware of 
> the existence of so many "semi-private" lists/resources.  E.g., 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], committers module, 
> planetapache.org, etc.
> 
> I think it would be good to announce these again.  Perhaps an automatic 
> "welcome new committer" email would be best to bring awareness of these 
> things to future new committers without bothering old committers.

*i* think it would be good to include something about them in the
'here's your committer account' message from the infrastructure.
and maybe a bi-monthly reminder to committers@ pointing to a page
where the info is available, particularly if it has changed recently.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again

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Sander Temme wrote:
> 
> That might get some additional people on the map. Would it be a good 
> idea to have the world map feature prominently on the apache.org site? 
> That would illustrate the fact that we're a global community and be 
> good PR.

+1
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again

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Sander Temme wrote:

> On Sep 27, 2004, at 3:58 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> 
>>> i think the point that's missing is "how do new committers (or old
>>> ones who haven't yet) get their coordinates onto the map?"
>>
>> Smart point. Well, what would you say to using [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> address (list)?
> 
> You can't just do that without the committer's consent. They'd have to 
> supply their coordinates somewhere and not everyone may want to divulge 
> where they are located.

i *think* tetsuya meant, 'how about sending mail to the committers@ list
letting them know about the map and how to get on it?'  rather than
'let's use information we have about committers to just plop them on
the map.'

:-)
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon

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-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

[resending, with modifications, due to screwed up cc list the first time]

Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> I find this discussion and the usage of terms such as "severe lack of
> respect" to be out of place and largely disproportionate with the real
> topic, substance and events.

all right.  i disagree, however, at least with the 'out of place' aspect.

> I received an email from the Chairman (with a specific note that that
> the message was issue by the Chairman in that capacity).

indeed, on rechecking i see that i was working from a false premise. a
couple of the addressees were hidden behind my mailer's twisty; yours
was one of them.  i was mistaken about you having been omitted from
the original message, and i withdraw those remarks and humbly apologise
for the statements and insinuations i made.

> Following receipt of the "official" notification from the Board
> concerning the Metro Project submission - I contacted Niclas as part of
> our normal process of coordination.  I expressed some opinions and
> concerns to Niclas on the subject of the notification - including the
> subject of the reservations and the strongly implied implications or
> those reservations.  A particular concern that I raised was the absence
> of any supporting justification or explanation for the "reservation"
> that was for all intensive purposes an explicit and directed exclusion
> of my participation in the oversight of a project to which I am
> committed, engaged and actively contributing.

i don't intend to get into the 'bring me a rock' scenario concerning
who said what when to justify whichever.  all the information is
available in the archives.  i imagine either sam or brian will post
relevant pointers.  if they don't, perhaps i will.  notwithstanding,
there *are* documented incidents leading to the reservation.

> What is in question is the openness of the Apache Software Foundation
> and that question is of interest to every committer at Apache.
>
> It is my opinion the Niclas posted his initial comments to the list
> simply as a "heads-up" to each and every committer here that something
> happened recently that simply was not right.

that opinion may or may not reflect actual fact.  let us assume for the
moment that it does.  'was not right' is also a matter of opinion.  what
is not a matter of opinion, but is rather a matter of fact, is that niclas
quoted a private message in a public forum without consulting the author.
attempting to raise awareness by defining a hypothetical case, or even an
actual case with the specifics removed, would have been much more acceptable,
although there is a slippery slope.  quoting a private message without
permission isn't acceptable at all.

> Will the actions taken by Niclas in defending the principals of openness
> and community within the ASF simply lead to another statement of
> "serious reservation" concerning his role and potential contribution?

possibly, in terms of roles involving representation or social responsibility.
this sequence *should* have no effect on opinions concerning his technical
ability and contributions.  people are people, however.

i am dismayed that the private message was exposed the way it was.  i am
much more concerned that the individual involved apparently doesn't see
the action as incorrect.  if i felt comfortable that it *did* understand
why it was inappropriate, i personally would be glad to regard the incident
as a one-time mistake arising from misunderstanding or cultural differences,
and most of my concern would evaporate.

>> i do not intend to 'fuel the flames,' but neither do i intend to let
>> anyone get away unchallenged with assertions or implications about our
>> organization that are patently untrue.
>
> Please consider this message as my direct and immediate challenge.

to what, specifically?  to my admitted-above patently-untrue assertion that
you weren't on the initial distribution?  done.  something else?
- --
#kenP-|}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
> I have refrained from "attacking people" in this list, but there is a limit 
> on 
> how much lies I will tolerate.

entirely appropriate.

> Mr Coar, please check your facts before implying yet more untrue statements 
> in 
> this and other matters. It doesn't suit you to be caught in FUD spreading and 
> carrying untruth to your fellow developers here at the ASF.

the only untrue statement that i am aware of having made is that stephen was
omitted from the distribution list.  and i became aware of my mistake this
morning.  yes, indeed, stephen *was* on the distribution, and i gladly withdraw
the statements i made which were predicated on my mistaken assumption, and
apologise to you and anyone else who unfairly suffered therefrom.

(fwiw, i didn't see stephen's name (and others) on the distribution because
they were hidden behind a twisty in my mailer.  that does not excuse my failure
to check my 'facts' more carefully, and i freely admit to being indisputably
wrong in my falsely-premised remarks and guilty of negligence by not checking
more carefully.)

if you are referring to some other thing you feel i am lying about, please let
me know.

> I don't know your motives behind this action, and hope it is only a matter of 
> "over-excited to prove me wrong" and/or "ignorance to check up your 
> statements". 

most definitely the latter.

> This is so sad. IMHO, an apology is in order, not to me, but to those who 
> have 
> placed their trust and confidence in you to a person of integrity and 
> respectability to represent them in this organization.

freely and gladly made.  thank you for calling me to account, and giving me
this opportunity to make it.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again

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i think the point that's missing is "how do new committers (or old
ones who haven't yet) get their coordinates onto the map?"
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon

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handwave, handwave.  you claimed 'total transparency;' i simply
illustrated why i suspected it was no such thing.  you have confirmed
that.

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> So, I still maintain that a cultural difference lay behind the difference of 
> opinion, whether the mail to the Metro group, to the Avalon PMC and 
> accessible by all ASF members were of confidential nature or not.

perhaps.  i personally don't buy it.

> And I sure did check with Stephen McConnell what his take was on quoting his 
> name straight up, and he had no objections whatsoever.

you really don't seem to understand.  *stephen* wasn't on the distribution
list, and yet you checked with him.  had he been informed before you did
so?  and you also failed to bother to even inform, much less get permission
from, the person you quoted.  or the private distribution to which the
message was sent.  you just took it on yourself to broadcast it to the
world, only bothering to check with someone who was deliberately and explicitly
*omitted* from the distribution for reasons sufficient to the sender.

you seem to agree that acceptable behaviour is defined by agreements.
very well, let me spell it out: by participating in the apache projects,
you are tacitly agreeing to abide by the rules behaviour the organisation
considers acceptable.  in case it wasn't clear, let me make it so now:
one of those is "if someone entrusts information to you in confidence,
you DO NOT expose it unless legally required or with the permission of
the source."

i do not intend to 'fuel the flames,' but neither do i intend to let anyone
get away unchallenged with assertions or implications about our organisation
that are patently untrue.
- --
#kenP-(}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
> The problem that Nicola perhaps doesn't realize is that, for Apache to be 
> long-term viable, it constantly needs to revive and evolve itself. Otherwise 
> it will become a speck in history, and not a dominant force of horizontal 
> open-source projects. And as you, Ceki, correctly point out, suche evolution 
> is likely to come from a minority and possibly not from the top-tier.

we don't seem to have done too badly for the last nine years, through
dot-boom and dot-bomb among other things.  presumably that means there's
something working right.

> I think it is called the Apache Way, i.e.  I haven't earned the respect of 
> others to have a different opinion about the ASF internals

not true.  you may have whatever opinions you like.  you may even voice
them under certain circumstances.  the merit you have acquired is directly
related to the seriousness with which your opinion will be regarded.

> nor does my view that what 100 people (members) is informed of, can be
> shared with the remaining set of committers that makes out this community.

*that* is correct, even if misstated ('members' was not the group whose
trust you violated).  you imposed your opinion on others, and demonstrated
a severe lack of respect for them in the process.  that really has nothing
to do with the 'apache way;' it has to do with the forms that people have
developed over centuries in order to permit them to deal with one another
with less than maximal friction.  the 'apache way' aspect may come in if
your actions cause people here to regard you with less respect.

> Apperently my 
> Scandinavian background of complete transparency is not compatible with the 
> more secretive athmosphere around here.

somehow, i doubt very much that your claim to 'complete transparency' is
accurate.  is it a matter of course, and acceptable and desired behaviour,
for a doctor to tell your friends and neighbours that you have cancer?  or
that you *don't* have syphilus?  or for an employee to tell its employer that
it really hates its job, and intends to resign at the earliest opportunity in
order to take a job with a competitor?  or for an employer to tell an employee
that it'll be fired for cause in three weeks?

i suspect not.

attempting to portray a confidential discussion among involved parties as
a 'secretive atmosphere' is, imho, nothing more than another handwave

> Lesson learnt.

from your typification of events, i'm not so sure.
- --
#kenP-(}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

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everyone knows i cannot keep my mouth shut to save my life.

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
>> If you don't understand this, you don't understand Apache.
> That itself sounds more like communism under Stalin than an open society 
> willing to discuss issues.

and *that* sounds like a simple handwave.  *do* you understand the
thing to which nicola ken referred?

> What I don't understand is why it is such a touchy subject. Why am I not 
> allowed to raise the issue, and get mails privately saying that I am 
> escalating the issue, when asking for clarifications on what constitutes 
> "demotions", as is the case with Stephen McConnell. 

because you egregiously violated principles of common courtesy,
and then repeatedly exhibited either unwillingness or stark inability
to understand why your actions were inappropriate.  you did not use
theoretical constructs, but actual ones/

> If I offend someone personally, am I then at risk of being expelled or not? 
> Can I flauntless hunt down and pester individuals who's "ranking" is lower 
> than mine, without worrying about retributions? How much flame-fest can I 
> partake in before the line is cut? How much hindrance can I extert on a 
> project, before I am kicked out?

if someone interferes with successful community function, that person
will probably be given repeated chances to correct the behaviour.  if
it persists, expulsion for the good of the community is possible.

> currently there are no guidelines of what constitutes acceptable behaviour 
> for committers, members, officers and directors.

there certainly are guidelines for acceptable online behaviour.  they're
collectively called 'netiquette.'  you violated them.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> 
>> You can, but you should damned well ask the author of the original email
>> for permission first (and, ideally, you should also ask the persons who
>> are the subject of the email).
> 
> Stephen was asked. He has no objections of washing laundry in the open, which 
> seems to be such a big issue.

note that you apparently ignored the 'MUST' aspect (asking the original
sender), assuming that fulfilling a 'SHOULD' (asking the subject) was
sufficient.

it was not sufficient.

>> And if even if someone was, is
>> is *not* your place to bring this message outside of the private forum
>> in which it originated.
> 
> I have quoted a fraction of a long mail, with the consent of the "victim".

but not with the consent of the person you're quoting.  do you
*really* perceive that to be acceptable behaviour?

> If that is too much exposure of the Board activities, then I suggest you take 
> disciplinary actions against me. (Hold on, there aer no procedures for that, 
> are there now?)

'board activities' has nothing to do with this.  this is simple courtesy.
what you have done, essentially, is turn a private conversation into gossip.

>> You seem to be confusing "Open Source" software with "Open up absolutely
>> everything to everyone".  The latter does nothing but waste peoples
>> time.
> 
> Sorry for wasting your time. It is yours to waste, though.

so you evidently *do* believe that 'open software' means 'Open up absolutely
everything to everyone' ?
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: apache swag

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

a reminder (tell your friends!): apache swag is available at

http://www.cafeshops.com/meepzor/230676

i have recently added a bunch of tomcat stuff, a few ant and excalibur
items, and some cocoon swag.  stuff for other projects awaits time
and suitable logo artwork.

10% of the profits go to the asf, so it's another way for people to
donate -- and be cool at the same time.

this note is not really a solicitation to buy stuff, but for
suggestions for additional items (and a request to spread the word
so that *other* people will see it and buy stuff ;-).  if you see
something in one section that's missing from another (like a tomcat
button but no corresponding cocoon one), chances are that i forgot
to add it -- so let me know!  likewise, if you have suggestions or
requests for different artwork/item combinations, like a different
wording or design for a cocoon t-shirt, let me know that, too.

how about some 'team' items for the project committers?  'team ant,'
'team httpd,' 'team tomcat,' and so on?

if you can come up with new ways to put together items and artwork,
let me know!  and i'll give a discount on its first order to anyone
who suggests something new..

i'm going to stop bugging community@ with this stuff soon, and switch
to posting 'new item' news in the cafepress newsletter that goes with
the shop.  that only gets sent to people who subscribe through the
subscription box on the store site, though, so it's entirely opt-in.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: apache swag

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

David N. Welton wrote:
>
> Have you had a look at the results of any of these things, in person?

i have ordered some of my own mugs and am quite happy w/them.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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apache swag

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

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the appropriate permissions having been obtained, my apache swag
store is now open:  http://www.cafeshops.com/meepzor/230676
a percentage of the profits are donated to the apache software
foundation.

this note is not a solicitation to buy stuff, but for sugegstions
for additional items.  i'm not a graphic designer, so the best i
can do is rather primitive.

and before you ask, black is not a t-shirt colour cafepress offers
yet. :-)
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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Re: Volunteers wanted: Linuxworld Expo booth

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

suddenly i'll be at linuxworld, but i don't know if i can help out or
not.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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apachecon cfp is out, please forward

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

the apachecon call for participation has been sent to a set of core
lists.  please forward the message to percolate through the various
communities (incubator, xml, php, jakarta, geronimo, database, avalon,
et cetera).  [for instance, sessions on spamassassin would rock, imho.]
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"



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Call for Participation for ApacheCon US 2004

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Call for Participation: ApacheCon US 2004
=
November 14-17, 2004, Las Vegas, Nevada, US

[Please feel free to forward this notice far and wide!]

SUBMISSION DEADLINE: Friday, 23 July 2004, 23:59 EDT
*** NOTICE THE TIME: MIDNIGHT FRIDAY NIGHT, U.S. EASTERN TIME! ***

Come share your knowledge of Apache software at this
educational and fun-filled gathering of Apache users,
vendors, and friends.

Apache Software Foundation members are designing the
technical program for ApacheCon US 2004 that will include
over 40 sessions planned.

We are particularly interested in session proposals
covering:

o Apache Web server topics (installation, compilation,
  configuration, migration, ...)
o All Apache Software Foundation projects (Jakarta,
  mod_perl, Xerces, et cetera)
o scripting languages and dynamic content
  (Java, PHP, Perl, TCL, Python, XML, XSL, etc.)
o Security and eCommerce
o Performance tuning, load balancing, high availability
o tips for writing Apache Web server modules
o Technical and non-technical case studies
o new Web-related technologies

Only educational sessions related to projects of the Apache
Software Foundation or the Web in general will be considered
(commercial sales or marketing presentation won't be accepted;
please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you're interested in
giving a vendor presentation).

If you would like to be a speaker at the ApacheCon US 2004
event, please go to the ApacheCon Web site, log in, and choose
the 'Submit a CFP' option from the list there:

 http://ApacheCon.Com/html/login.html

NOTE: If you were a speaker or delegate at a past ApacheCon,
please log in using the email address you used before; this
will remember your information and pre-load the CFP form for
you.  If this is your first time being involved with ApacheCon,
please create a new account.

ALL SESSIONS WILL BE 50 MINUTES LONG!  If you wish to
propose a session that will take two consecutive slots,
please mention that in the comments section of the CFP
form.

USE THE SAME FORM to submit a proposal for a half- or full-day
tutorial.

EXPENSES AND FEES are expected to be covered at approximately
the same rate as for ApacheCon 2003 US; watch the ApacheCon
site and the [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailing lists for news about the final details.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"



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Re: planet aggregation doing some editing?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Thom May wrote:

> it strips all tags that might allow malicious users to insert problematic
> code.

the style attribute is dangerous?
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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planet aggregation doing some editing?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

so, how come the aggregator is stripping out 'style=""' attributes?
it turned '' into '', which
caused some confusion for someone trying to follow something in one
of my entries..
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"



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Re: Planet may look a bit weird for a while

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Thom May wrote:
>
> Since we're working around the brokeness that is RSS 0.91; all feeds 
> with no times are being time guessed, which unfortunately means that 
> all their old posts are gonna turn up on top.
> So, the way to fix this is to blog more!
> Get to it!

just a thought..

right now, planetapache is set up in a strictly chronological order,
like advogato.  what would people think about there being a view
that showed entries grouped by author?  that is..  right now it lists
things like

thom #81
sander #30
benh #10
thom #80
thom #79
ken #62
benh #9

would there be any interest in being able to click a button and have them
listed as

thom #81
thom #80
thom #79
sander #30
benh #10
benh #9
ken #62

instead?

just a thought..
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: Plant Apache is now online

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

'plant apache -- and let the seed grow' :-)
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: Single Location for syndicated Apache blogs

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Dave Brondsema wrote:
> 
> So if it's not a formality that all new ASF projects should undergo, who 
> decides
> if a project should be incubated or if it can go directly to being a regular
> project?

code coming to the asf which has existed elsewhere first *must*
come in through the incubator in order that the legal issues
can be sorted.  the only way something can 'go directly to
being a regular project' is if it has all of its origins inside
the asf and thus there is no chance for the ip and provenance to
be clouded.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: Single Location for syndicated Apache blogs

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> 
> Does it seem sensible to take an already successful ASL licensed, community
> developed piece of software by an already successful open source developer
> and force it into a somewhat beta status by making it go through the
> incubator "just because that is the way things are done"?

no.  however, it *does* make sense for it to have to go through the
incubator for the reasons it exists.  which are not 'just because that is
the way things are done.'  little things, like the due diligence of
getting all the clas, the copyright assignment, and licence vetting,
among other things.

if you can't be constructive, andy, i wish you'd just shut up.  suggest
ways to improve the things you don't like, or just remain silent, can't
you?
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: Single Location for syndicated Apache blogs

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Ben Hyde wrote:

> Well it's all well and good until somebody get's hurt.  For example  
> Ken's posting about how his Forsythia is blooming and meanwhile it's  
> -1F here and I gather up in NH there are places that are -38F.  How do  
> you think that makes me feel?  Hot and bothered, that's how!  - ben

well, i just took some photographs of that same bloomin' forsythia --
with its blossoms covered with snow.  so don't feel so bad.

stupid shrub.  it's *got* to be part azalea.

http://Ken.Coar.Org/gallery/Flowers2003-12/dscn2503 and following;
click on the pic for the full 1600x1200 version.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: Single Location for syndicated Apache blogs

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> 
> But pulling back, perhaps a way to address Noel's concern is to have this
> aggregator only pull content from the RSS feeds that the blogger marks as
> somehow being Apache-related.  RSS allows arbitrary metadata, right?  Is
> there an easy way to mark a post in most blogger tools as "Apache-related"
> or something?  That way someone can rant on and on about their favorite
> political subject in their blog, but meanwhile only their Apache-related
> posts get aggregated at the ASF's site.

probably not if the rss feed url is scraped from elsewhere.  however, if
committers can specify particular feed urls, it might be workable -- at
least for those people who categorise.  for instance, to get the apache-related
articles from my log, the feed url i

http://Ken.Coar.Org/burrow/index.rss?category=Apache&comments=true&words=all

that won't get you the articles about my neverending war with the grey
death -- unless they also mention apache somewhere and i marked them as
such.

i'm pretty sure this is fairly common practice.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: Private mail lists [was: Inappropriate use of announce@]

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Steven Noels wrote:

> Santiago Gala wrote:
>>> Just tell them. I think they are all PMC Chairs are subscribed to  
>>> board, so it should be easy to tell them there to
> 
> Sideway comment from my little peanut gallery: this is (only) the second 
> time I overheard that PMC chairs can subscribe to board@ - in three 
> years of (increasingly intensive) reading of non-project-specific ASF 
> mail lists. Whether this is a 'can', a 'should', or a 'you are required 
> to' is one of these hidden nuggets of information I would like to see 
> novice chairs to be informed of in some explicit way.

it's actually wider than that; implicit in the outcome of the recent
discussion, and as a matter of apparently inadequately stated policy,
any asf member may subscribe to the board@ list.  in fact, all are
encouraged to do so, that they can keep themselves informed.

something that also came out of the recent discussion is that private
(not even members) lists are permitted, though discouraged, as long
as no asf-affecting decisions are made on them.  all such decisions
need to be made in the light where members can see them.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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Re: Fwd: Book about The Apache Software Foundation

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

heh.  i *wondered* if anyone else got that message..
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@

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Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> 
> Any by trying to build "an ideal world for yourself", you basically
> killed whatever enthusiasm or dedication Tetsuya showed. Because you
> offered no support or at least positive feedback but only "we don't like
> this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". I'd be
> frustrated, too.

i think this must be another cultural differences thing.  i think
the tone was a bit harder than it possibly ought to have been,
but i think the 'post a link instead' was meant to be constructive.
it was still trying to help get the information to the readers.

i think it's also a matter of expectations.  when i'm on a mailing
list, i don't expect -- nor appreciate -- 4MiB JPEGs being sent
to it unless that was very clearly stated on the list charter.
admittedly a 43k newletter isn't quite in the same realm, but
i think the question comes down to whether subscribers want nothing
'below the fold' (i.e., only one-screen messages) or not.  and we
can't really ask them.  we can maybe infer some of their preferences
by seeing the effect on subscriptions and reading complaints --
although i think the latter only go back to the announcement sender
for most of our announcement lists.

others' expectations are doubtless different.  lcd solutions suck,
but they're the only way to go if there are *no* expectations set.
so, the [unanswerable] question remains: did receiving the newsletter
on the announcement list fall within the subscribers' exxpectations?
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@

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Sander Striker wrote:
> 
> Also consider the people that are subscribed to the announce list, all 8304
> of them.  I'm sure they didn't sign up to an announcement list to receive
> 43k emails.  If they had wanted that, they would have subscribed to a 
> newsletter... ;).

after any announcement to any apache mailing list, there
is always an immediate flurry of unsubscriptions.  it would
be interesting to see if the volume is any greater or less
after large ones like the newsletter.

long ago, when the original httpd announce@apache.org got
repurposed into a general announcement list, did we say
anything about what subscribers could expect?  do we say
anything about it now on the page where people learn about
the lists?  are we meeting the expectations we set thereby,
if we *do* set any?

i agree in that i think people have been coming down a little
hard on tetsuya about this.  i disagree with and am disappointed
in his position that he can't or won't work with others to find
a happy medium, that he'll do this his (culture's) way or not at
all.  however, maybe i'm misinterpreting what he said (the
cultural thing, after all ;-); in any event, it's his prerogative
and choice.  i appreciate the energy and effort he put into
it, even if i *did* get annoyed at getting essentially the same
messages (about providing content for the newsletter) about a
dozen times from all the apache lists i'm on. :-)

tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common
decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow
and age.  imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to
empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to
use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and
bureaucracy.
-- 
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: Did you know? Interesting Stuff around ApacheCon

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

and did you know that there's a wiki for apachecon, at
http://ApacheCon.Com/wiki/ -- just waiting to record
people sharing their comments, suggestions, tips, and
complaints?

NOTE: the wiki currently allows anyone to edit pages.
that access will at some point require that you use your
apachecon account credentials to make changes.
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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Re: Status of Pluto?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> 
> I just found out by chance that a cvs repository and a web site
> for Pluto at Jakarta exist.
> 
> Can someone expand on the current status?
> What are the next steps?

better asked on [EMAIL PROTECTED], though i don't know what the
answer will be.
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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Re: Apachecon: The Guru Is In

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> 
> In my opinion the key idea of the ASF is to push the idea of the different
> communities behind a project. I can't count how many times I heard on our
> lists that a project can be considered "mature" only when the original
> author left and someone else in the community picked up the "leading" role
> in the development.
> 
> Pushing the idea of a "guru" (IMVHO) is exactly the opposite of pushing the
> idea of a community. It's a single individual over the bazillion of people
> behind this or that project, and I wouldn't want it to be seen as a
> "serious" figure promoted by the foundation...

pier, please remember that the people at apachecon are primarily
USERS, not developers.  please do not try to apply our internal
criteria to them.  a 'guru' is exactly what many of them would
like to encounter.
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: Apachecon: The Guru Is In

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Rich Bowen wrote:
> 
> OK, I added on in cvs, and then read your note. So it's your preference
> that these not be going on during sessions? That leaves very little time
> - just the lunch and coffee breaks. My thought hat been to have these be
> going on while sessions were going on for the few folks that were not
> going to be in a talk at the time. Please let me know if folks think
> that this is a problem.

i like the idea of having them during sessions.  diversity is good,
and since it's so free-format, and the same gurus can come back
(bwb -- bribed with beer) for encores, i think it's a win.
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Re: Follow the example

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> There's no coverage on some of the top level projects you mention, e.g. no 
> sessions on Ant, Avalon, James & Maven.

um, because no-one submitted proposals about them.  sessions don't
spring out of thin air, y'know.  and just because ant doesn't have
any sessions, doe that mean the asf-wide conference shouldn't be
mentioned on their page?
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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Re: W3C Ceases Development on libwww

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Someone interested in working on it?

i don't know how much time i could give it (a nanosecond
here or there, maybe) but hell yeah it should be adopted
by the asf!
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Re: [PROPSAL] Support EU Patent Vote Protest

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Thom May wrote:
> 
>> The page is currently at http://cvs.apache.org/~gianugo/apache-protest.html
>> and simply imposes a 60 second delay on viewing the current ASF index page.
>> The page contains very simple text that is non-inflammatory wordings and
>> fits nicely with the ASF website look and feel. The page was written by
>> Gianugo Rabellino [EMAIL PROTECTED]

+1

is this just for the 27th, or 27th through 1st?  i'm inclined toward
the latter..

some suggestions:

1. sixty seconds isn't long enough for all that text to be read and
   assimilated.  i think the interval should be made longer, and there
   should be some way to reach it in case of 'hey, i wasn't finished!'
   or 'what did that say again?' or 'hey, that was in english, and i don't
   read english so good'.
2. change 'open source' to 'open software'.  on the one hand, defuse any
   potential open-source/free-software issues; for another, make it
   clear to people reading it exactly what this is about.  a lot of people
   use our software without knowing or caring that it's open source, or
   even what that means.  we want to raise their awarenesses, too.
3. it's too late, probably, but multiviewed translated pages would be
   an outstanding feature.
-- 
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Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: No answer from announceme...@jakarta.apache.org

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> 
> Ken, if you feel *burdens* for the moderations of XX mailing
> lists, please feel free to contact me. I think I can deal with
> 250-500 additional mails per day for now. (Now: 500-700 mails per day)

i believe you're missing the point.  the issue is not the volume of
email, it's imposing the burden on someone *else*.  there are several
people who are moderators for that list.  adding another moderator
won't keep the existing ones from having to wade through all the
spam filling their inboxes -- it will just add one more person
with the same amount of spam in *its* inbox.

i think the issue here is the violation of the principle of least
astonishment -- namely, the restriction wasn't clearly enough
documented (or possibly at all) so it caught henning by surprise.
as for whether documenting it is a good idea, see the last section
below.

> Also, how about using modules for committers to explain such kind
> of things as these above? 

please explain.

>> and now that this has been discussed on a publicly archived list,
>> it will probably have to made even more stringent, such as
>> requiring the mail be sent from your account on one of the asf
>> machines or something.
> 
> -1

i don't think it's really subject to vote here.  if anywhere,
it would be the moderators and the infrastructure people.  and
my point is that now this is a publicly known algorithm, spammers
may spoof mail as coming from @apache.org in order to get into
the moderation queue.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: No answer from announceme...@jakarta.apache.org [Fwd:Returnedpost for announceme...@jakarta.apache.org]

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> now I know a reason:
> 
> --- cut ---
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at apache.org.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following
> addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> :
> Must be sent from an @apache.org address.
> --- cut ---
> 
> This isn't nice. :-(

henning, that's a judgement made from too little information.
if you were responsible for assessing hundreds of daily messages
to that address to see which should be moderated, you would
most likely have a different opinion.  changing your return address
to an @apache.org one long enough to send a message is a lot
less strenuous for the community than allowing postings to it
from just anywhere and imposing the additional burden on the
moderators.  who are volunteers, by the way.

and now that this has been discussed on a publicly archived list,
it will probably have to made even more stringent, such as
requiring the mail be sent from your account on one of the asf
machines or something.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

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Re: No answer from announceme...@jakarta.apache.org [Fwd:Returnedpost for announceme...@jakarta.apache.org]

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

David Reid wrote:
> As one of the moderators for announce@apache.org I'd have happily moderated
> through your announcement...

unless something has been changed, only mail originating from an @apache.org
address will even reach the announce@apache.org moderation queue.  all other
sources will get silently dropped.  an anti-spam measure.
-- 
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Re: No answer from announceme...@jakarta.apache.org [Fwd: Returned post for announceme...@jakarta.apache.org]

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Steven Noels wrote:
> 
> You can also politely poll [EMAIL PROTECTED]

for most of the apache lists, that gets turned into a single
person when ezmlm [re]configures the list.  it requires special
handling to change that to be the moderators.  only four lists
are currently so configured: community-owner, community-digest-owner,
[EMAIL PROTECTED], and [EMAIL PROTECTED] .

the default single-person setting means that even with lots of
moderators, stuff that goes to the owner is at the mercy of
one person's schedule.
-- 
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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REMINDER: ApacheCon 2003 US proposals due NEXT MONDAY!

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-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

REMINDER: NEXT MONDAY IS THE DEADLINE FOR SPROPOSAL SUBMISSION!

Call for Participation: ApacheCon US 2003
=
November 16-19, 2003, Las Vegas, Nevada, US

[Please feel free to forward this notice far and wide!]

SUBMISSION DEADLINE: Monday, 25 August May 2003, 23:59 EDT

Come share your knowledge of Apache software at this
educational and fun-filled gathering of Apache users,
vendors, and friends.

Apache Software Foundation members are designing the
technical program for ApacheCon US 2002 that will include
over 40 sessions planned.

We are particularly interested in session proposals
covering:

o Apache Web server topics (installation, compilation,
  configuration, migration, ...)
o All Apache Software Foundation projects (Jakarta,
  mod_perl, Xerces, et cetera)
o scripting languages and dynamic content
  (Java, PHP, Perl, TCL, Python, XML, XSL, etc.)
o Security and eCommerce
o Performance tuning, load balancing, high availability
o tips for writing Apache Web server modules
o Technical and non-technical case studies
o new Web-related technologies

Only educational sessions related to projects of the Apache
Software Foundation or the Web in general will be considered
(commercial sales or marketing presentation won't be accepted;
please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you're interested in
giving a vendor presentation).

If you would like to be a speaker at the ApacheCon US 2003
event, please go to the ApacheCon Web site, log in, and choose
the 'Submit a CFP' option from the list there:

 http://ApacheCon.Com/html/login.html

NOTE: If you were a speaker or delegate at a past ApacheCon,
please log in using the email address you used before; this
will remember your information and pre-load the CFP form for
you.  If this is your first time being involved with ApacheCon,
please create a new account.

ALL SESSIONS WILL BE 50 MINUTES LONG!  If you wish to
propose a session that will take two consecutive slots,
please mention that in the comments section of the CFP
form.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Call for Participation for ApacheCon US 2003

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Call for Participation: ApacheCon US 2003
=
November 16-19, 2002, Las Vegas, Nevada, US

[Please feel free to forward this notice far and wide!]

SUBMISSION DEADLINE: Monday, 25 August May 2003, 23:59 EDT

Come share your knowledge of Apache software at this
educational and fun-filled gathering of Apache users,
vendors, and friends.

Apache Software Foundation members are designing the
technical program for ApacheCon US 2002 that will include
over 40 sessions planned.

We are particularly interested in session proposals
covering:

o Apache Web server topics (installation, compilation,
  configuration, migration, ...)
o All Apache Software Foundation projects (Jakarta,
  mod_perl, Xerces, et cetera)
o scripting languages and dynamic content
  (Java, PHP, Perl, TCL, Python, XML, XSL, etc.)
o Security and eCommerce
o Performance tuning, load balancing, high availability
o tips for writing Apache Web server modules
o Technical and non-technical case studies
o new Web-related technologies

Only educational sessions related to projects of the Apache
Software Foundation or the Web in general will be considered
(commercial sales or marketing presentation won't be accepted;
please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you're interested in
giving a vendor presentation).

If you would like to be a speaker at the ApacheCon US 2003
event, please go to the ApacheCon Web site, log in, and choose
the 'Submit a CFP' option from the list there:

 http://ApacheCon.Com/html/login.html

NOTE: If you were a speaker or delegate at a past ApacheCon,
please log in using the email address you used before; this
will remember your information and pre-load the CFP form for
you.  If this is your first time being involved with ApacheCon,
please create a new account.

ALL SESSIONS WILL BE 50 MINUTES LONG!  If you wish to
propose a session that will take two consecutive slots,
please mention that in the comments section of the CFP
form.
- --
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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Re: Hackathon at OSCON?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Joerg Pietschmann wrote:
> Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>> Hopefully, we'll be having an ApacheCon again soon.
>> 
> Anybody interested in having an ApacheCon in europe this fall
> (end of august or in september)? I could be tempted to do
> something about this...

next apachecon is in las vegas in november.  same bat time,
same bat channel.  the bobbles involved with sorting out the
2003 one prevented us from pulling everything together for
one in europe this summer, as originally planned; there were
too many issues outstanding.  next year we'll do it better.
-- 
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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Re: How BSD hurts OpenSource

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
> 
> What happened to the license FAQ there was talk about a while ago?

you mean http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html ?
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Re: Code reviewing

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

i don't think this person is a committer nor on the list, but i
moderated it through because we have no 'general' mailing list
on which non-asf people may post.
-- 
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
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Re: anyone know the progress of the Maven top level proposal?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I posted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] yesterday asking about the updated scope but
> have yet to hear a reply.

interesting, since i sent a message about this to the board list
a couple of hours before you sent this.  i guess i forgot the
appropriate ccs.  attached.
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
--- Begin Message ---
bloody hell.

can we all just calm down here, please, everybody?  let's
stop bristling and acting like scorched cats.

jason, dIon:  the charter in the resolution that went
to the board was:

 WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
 interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
 Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
 Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
 open-source software related to Java software development,
 maintenance, and comprehension, for distribution at no charge
 to the public.

 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
 Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Maven PMC", be and hereby
 is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it
 further

 RESOLVED, that the Maven PMC be and hereby is responsible for
 the creation and maintenance of software related to Java
 software development, maintenance, and comprehension, based on
 software licensed to the Foundation; and be it further

in the special board meeting, the board concluded that 'creation and
maintenance of open-source software related to Java software development,
maintenance, and comprehension' was too broad by far, encompassing
rather more than just the existing maven project or even any reasonable
expansion of same.  so the resolution was not voted.  not voted *down*,
but not voted *at all*.  (someone else on the board correct me if i'm
misremembering.)

jason, you asked and greg answered:

>>> How does the resolution need to be altered?
> 
> 
> Tighten up the charter. Dirk had some ideas, but it seems that he hasn't
> posted some ideas for new text.

yesterday you did just that, and sent:

>   WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in
>   the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with
>   the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
>   Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
>   open-source software related to Java software development tools
>   which are predicated on the  use of Maven's Project Object Model (POM),
>   for distribution at no charge to the public.

i think that is an appropriate narrowing of scope, though it
seems a bit self-referential.

so let's start from here, shall we?  is the above wording satisfactory
to the maven people?  is it satisfactory to the board?  if not in either
case, let's try to constructively fix it, and leave personalities out of
it.  let's work *together*.

and on the matter of 'well, cocoon was able to refine their charter
after creation, why can't we?'  the short answer is that the board
doesn't want to get into a habit of having to revisit approved projects
to see if they've completed the required retrofit.  in other words,
the cocoon scenario should be considered an exception -- and one to be
rued -- and not the rule.  let's get it right the first time so it doesn't
have to be revisited and we can all keep moving forward.

all imho.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2003-03-05 at 16:09, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:

> 
> >   WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in
> >   the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with
> >   the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
> >   Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
> >   open-source software related to Java software development tools
> >   which are predicated on the  use of Maven's Project Object Model (POM),
> >   for distribution at no charge to the public.
> 
> i think that is an appropriate narrowing of scope, though it
> seems a bit self-referential.
> 
> so let's start from here, shall we?  is the above wording satisfactory
> to the maven people?  

None of the developers had a problem with it. We are interested in
pursuing the creation of tools based on a coherent object model for a
Java-based project.

> is it satisfactory to the board?  if not in either
> case, let's try to constructively fix it, and leave personalities out 

Re: anyone know the progress of the Maven top level proposal?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

James Strachan wrote:
> Just wondered if anyone knew the boards latest view of the 'Maven as top
> level project' proposal? Its been a bit quiet lately - have I missed
> anything?

afaik, jason, dIon, and the board are refining the charter.  i think
that's the only thing.
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Re: Updating source files to have full ASF license

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Rich,
> 
>> What is the rationale for the full text in each and every file?
> 
> ASF Board directive, as it was told to me.  I wasn't privy to the decision
> making process, but I assume that a determination was made that:
> 
>  /* Copyright (C) The Apache Software Foundation. All rights reserved.
>   *
>   * This software is published under the terms of the Apache Software
>   * License version 1.1, a copy of which has been included with this
>   * distribution in the LICENSE file.
>   *
>   */
> 
> is not sufficient from a legal perspective.

i said that, and i was at least partly wrong.  see the attached
message from roy.
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--- Begin Message ---
and inclusion by reference isn't suddenly becoming official with the
2.0 licence; until we hear counsel that says its safe, we most likely
won't permit it regardless of the size of the licence text.
WTF?  Of course it is safe, and we've already had several lawyers
review it, not to mention ample evidence from the MPL and GPL that
other lawyers believe it is safe with the proper reference text.
The proposed 2.0 license text was specifically written to support
inclusion by reference.
The problem with the 1.1 license is that it lacked a way to define
the scope of what was covered beyond "this file".  As such, the board
has not approved its use by reference for our own products.
Even so, it is still "safe" (albeit confusing) to use it by reference
provided that the file starts with a proper copyright line and
"All rights reserved."  After all, our license simply spells out the
conditions under which we reduce our own rights -- it doesn't matter
whether or not the user can see the full agreement because without
the agreement they cannot legally copy the file at all.
Roy

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Re: Ant PMC Issue (was: RE: [proposal] daedalus jar repository)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
> 
> I'm not picking lint out of belly button and weaving a story here. I
> take what I see on the board list and I did speak with on the phone for
> about 40 minutes so I have, even if limited, some idea of how you're
> affected. I'm not saying that it's a conspiracy I'm just pointing out
> that as busy as everyone is on the board it is not hard to imagine that
> there is a reliance on Sam for information. I'm not saying none of you
> don't think for yourselves on Java issues but that Sam's opinion carries
> a lot of weight and might possibly be taken as the sole source of
> information.

thank you.  imho that's a much better statement of what i think
you meant in the first message.  i.e., the message hasn't
changed but the delivery has.  this doesn't raise my hackles or
make me feel put on the defensive the way the first one did. :-)

>> please sprinkle a few more 'imho's
>> through your posts, because otherwise the wording doesn't
>> seem to even imply them.
> 
> Fair enough. I have very few lessons in diplomacy. I can learn,
> eventually with a big enough stick.

heh.  if you manage to learn any from me it will be miraculous. :-D

> IMHO, I would say that it is not hard to imagine the board not being
> heavily influenced by Sam's opinion. That being said things turned out
> differently than I expected and I will make an attempt to tone down my
> direct line of attack approach to things.

i think the first sentence's meaning is reversed; do you mean
'it's easy to imagine the board being heavily influenced by sam's
opinion'?  if so, not only do i agree on the imaginability of it,
but think it is accurate as well: i think we *are* heavily
influenced (in re things jakarta) by sam's input.  however, we
aren't taking it as the sole source, even if we may be less
conversant with the issues.

we now return you to your regularly-scheduled reasoned discussion,
already in progress.  if this had been an actual emergency.. :-)
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Re: Ant PMC Issue (was: RE: [proposal] daedalus jar repository)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

okey, this ticked my bogometer.

Jason van Zyl wrote:
> 
> My comments cannot be misinterpreted.

an interesting position. :-)

> My observations relate strictly to the behaviour of the board
> in their relationship with Sam.

indeed: your observations.  subjective opinion, in other words,
not the one true reality.

> I'm definitely trying to draw out into the open how things work.

so far you're not doing a very good job, because you seem to
be hitting very wide of the mark.  to put it rather more
bluntly, jason, don't try to tell *me* how i'm affected by
something; it's not your place, nor are you competent to do
so.  (no-one is except myself.)  saying that it 'appears to you'
that something is affecting me a certain way, however, is
perfectly acceptable.  please sprinkle a few more 'imho's
through your posts, because otherwise the wording doesn't
seem to even imply them.

as for the board taking sam as the sole source of input about
things regarding jakarta: i'm sure a little reflection on
your part will reveal that as hyperbole.  if it were true,
none of the other board members would be subscribed to and
participating on all the jakarta mailing lists that we are.
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Re: [off-topic-just for fun] - Maps and zoom-in

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> The map on:
> 
>   http://cvs.apache.org/~dirkx/sgala.html
> 
> has had a wee enhancement; if you zoom in far enough; the boring digital
> terrain map of etoto5 gets replaced by mapblast. Depending on which part
> of the world you're in, the projection is about right :-)

heh heh.  now to tie in terraserver or one of the other satellite
imaging systems. :-)
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Re: The web of trust

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

as i blogged, i'd love to see this feedable into agora..

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mailing list for apache-related opportunies

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

just in case you weren't aware of it, i run a mailing list
for people interested in hearing about apache-related
opportunities.  speaking, jobs, teaching, ... ; web server,
java, xml, ...

http://apache-server.com/opportunities.html

a couple that have just come in (partial excerpts; full
details being sent to the list later):

 I am writing to ask if someone from your organization
 would be willing to present on Cocoon at one of our
 Java User Group (http://www.fairfieldjug.com) meetings
 at the Wilton, CT office.
 ---
 Do you have anyone from your team that's in the Dallas,
 Tx area?  I am with the Dallas Netware User's Group and
 we have a strong interest in someone speaking about some
 of the functionalities we can accomplish with your product.
 ---

all welcome.  very low traffic.  all welcome to share.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Open this list

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

* On 2003-02-05 at 18:55,
  Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> excited the electrons to say:
> 
> I would like to propose that after seeing the way that this list
> functions up until now, that it the issue be reconsidered and that
> it be re-opened to the public.

as has been poiinted out by others, i don't think this is a
particularly good time to raise the issue.  not only do i think the
same results will obtain, but i think even having it on the table is
going to piss some people off who are eminently tired of the topic.  i
suggest at least waiting until mid april.  people have already
established their opinions and positions on the matter.

*however*.. if you want to change this to a proposal that we create a
*new* opt-in list with no restrictions on subscription, i think that
is a different matter.  not only would it seem to satisfy both camps,
but i suspect the discussion energy for it would not be as stale.

> Main considerations:
> * there is already a private list *committers* which important issues
> like "gee the server was attacked, please don't leave publically
> executable/writable files in your home director expecially you, you
> and you

{sigh} if you're going to talk about opening community@, please *drop*
this bogus comparison.  community@ is opt-in -- which means that only
those people who are interested get deluged with the periodic denial
of service.  committers@ is *mandatory*: if you're an apache
committer, you *cannot* escape being on the committers list.  ergo, it
is not for discussions.

> * The quality of the conversation will increase

non sequitur.. :-)

> Minor considerations:
> 
> * I will rejoin and stop whining about it.

won't you consider being nice and doing that anyway?  or is this the
only price you'll accept?   
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Re: Clear the air Re: ATTN: Maven developers [was: primary distribution location]

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

okey, i'm wading in here, noting as i do the angels high-tailing
it in the other direction.. :-)

i'm ccing [EMAIL PROTECTED] because i think portions of this
discussion are important to the entire asf developer
community, and not just jakarta.  (jakarta leads the way
again!  )

this is my take on the things we need to keep in mind.  i
may be wrong; where i'm unsure, i'm erring on the side
of conservatism.  and i'm saying this stuff with my
board hat semi-on; that is, i'll be glad to be corrected
or overruled by the rest of the board, but in the absence
of such i'm breaking new ground with a tentative prototype
policy.  it's all open to discussion and refinement, but
it's semi-official.  it's just my take on things at the
moment, but it's a stake in the ground.

now, then.  the (at least!) two things we need to keep in
mind are:

1. no asf package (or asf contributor acting ex officio
   being an apache contributor) may deliberately
   violate the terms of any licence.
2. no code nor activity is permitted that will virally
   infect any of the asf's assets, or those of any user
   of asf packages.

those are pretty much non-negociable; any inadvertent
violation needs to be corrected AT ONCE as soon as it
is identified.  violating a licence because 'everyone
else is doing it' or 'the licence-owner has never gone
after anyone' are not on; we need to do the Right Thing,
not the cop-out or expedient one.  if, for instance,
we violated one of microsoft's licence terms just
because everyone else does, the potential harm to the
asf is enormous: not only massive monetary liability,
but severe damage to our reputation for integrity.

so we must not distribute any 3p (third-party) packages
from asf systems if it is not permitted by their licences.
nor may any of our code automatically go off and fetch
such packages and start using them on the user's system
if the packages' licences require *any* sort of acknowledgement
by the user.  that is, if the licence for package 'x' says
the user must stand on its head and send a paypal donation
before using 'x', none of our code may automatically download
'x' to the user's system.  if it's *already* on the user's
system, we can use it -- but we can't get into any position
in which we are essentially responsible for transmitting
someone else's licence terms to the user, and assuming they've
agreed to comply with them.  (i.e., for now i'm ruling
click-through licences as not permissible for our stuff
to present.)

as far as sun-bin licensed stuff on ibiblio -- it's not an
asf system, so the asf is neither liable nor responsible.
*if* some asf package requires sun-bin stuff, and silently
goes off to ibiblio to download it, though.. that's not
allowed.  telling the user it needs to download the
sun-bin stuff is fine; telling it the stuff can be found
on ibiblio.. well, i *think* that's okey, but it's kinda
grey.

if someone is using an asf package that does *not*, itself,
require such stuff, but is using the asf package to build
something that does, i think we're pretty much okey there
too, since the user needs to explicitly state the dependency.
i think it's possible to consider stating the dependency
as equivalent to having the stuff already on the system --
but again it's a grey area, and i hope roy can shed some
light in this darkness.  again, autofetching it by default
from a known location -- such as ibiblio or sun -- once the
dependency has been stated by the user *should* be okey.
i think.

i'm not even going to touch the infection issue at this point;
it always makes my cephalic nodule hurt horribly.  let's
just say that we can't do anything that will trigger an
infection of the asf's assets -- or those of someone using
asf packages.  if a licence permits *linking* against
a library, there's no prohibition on our packages requiring
the library in order to run properly.  if a licence allows
us to include the library, as a general rule we can package
it with our stuff.  if by linking with it or including it
in our distributions we trigger a clause in its licence that
either overrides the asf licence on our stuff, or forces
the user to comply with rules more restrictive than the
asf licence.. then we mustn't do that.

i hope this all makes sense, to some degree.  please follow
up to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

and because recording incremental advances before a final
policy is published seems like an appropriate use, i've
set up http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Licensing
as a work area where we can distill the rules before they
get finalised and formally published on www.apache.org.

i need to stress that the wiki page is for *recording*, not
discussing.  if someone wants to take a look at the current
state of things, the wiki is good method -- but hammering
out the details needs to happen on the mailing list.

long message.. thanks for your patience!
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Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apa

Re: primary distribution location

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> 
> In short, the answer is no, and this applies to any software with
> copyright of The Apache Software Foundation.

which brings up a very good point that may have been overlooked:
this applies to anything on ibiblio or elsewhere that is copyright
the asf.  it does not apply strictly to the repositories on the asf
machines, but to the asf *code*.
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Re: Where we are.. continued..

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
> "ICBM", eh?  Gulp.

what's fun about this is that my home shows up as woods,
despite having been there about seven years. :-)
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Re: primary distribution location

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Costin Manolache wrote:
>> 
>> Where is this policy defined? I'd really like a definitive statement about 
>> this from someone with the authority to make such a pronouncement :-)
> 
> Good luck...
> 
> Since I doubt this will happen - I'm inclined to just start using LGPL and 
> force someone to make an official decision ( like force the removal if it 
> is against a rule, or admit that LGPL is ok by lack of action ). 

i recommend against pulling the board's beard in that manner.  there
are other alternatives beyond those you list that you might end up
'forcing.'  deliberately tainting the repositories in order to find
out if it's allowed might quite possibly result in fairly summary
action.  this is a *legal* issue; if it is determined that it is
not allowable, not only will the offending code be yanked, but a
very dim view will be taken of the person endangering the asf's
own assets.  i urge patience.

fwiw, the issue of lgpl-covered code in apache-licensed repositories
is not one that is being ignored.  but neither is it a simple one
that can be solved with an off-the-cuff decision.

 in fact, until such time as a clear determination
is made, i'm ruling that it is *not* allowed.  it is not worth the
risk.  so lgpl-licensed materials in the asf repositories are
forbidden until a final decision is made. 

that may seem heavy-handed and arbitrary; i apologise ahead of
time, particularly if i turn out to be wrong.  however, i am
saying this in good faith and in an attempt to do what's right.
i will welcome an official answer no less than anyone else.
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Re: Where to place Agora?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> 
> I am not sure that this type of project is the right sort of thing for ASF
> wide attention and support. Research projects such as this are valuable
> playgrounds - but do not map to operational systems or components with a
> wider use.

i do not see anything in our charter that limits us to only
'operation systems or components.'  and i argue that this
sort of social analysis tool may have a very wide potential
use indeed.
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Re: Where to place Agora?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Erik Abele wrote:
> 
> However, perhaps an 'OKAY' from the Incubator is still needed? Ken, can 
> you give further explanations?

one of the (many) purposes of the incubator is to protect the asf
from the dead-projects effect.  the exits from the incubator are:
an existing project, a new project, a graveyard, or back into the
wild.  podlings that fail to accrete a viable community will exit
using one of the latter two methods.

personally, i think that if more than about three hands go up on
this list that would be a sufficient nuclear community for agora
to go directly into the commons.  fewer than three people plus
stefano, and i think it should go the the incubator.

mho.
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Re: Where are we?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Ben Hyde wrote:
> http://www.cozy.org/ben/map.jpg

heh.  lookit all the developers in the middle of the pacific. :-)
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Re: Adding community@ archives was Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> 
> Should I make community@ available also on EyeBrowse?
> (Please, make sure to CC me as I'm not on the Community list)

yes, please.  and let us know the url.
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Re: Where are we?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Ben Hyde wrote:
> I wonder if we could do something fun.
> 
> I think it would be fun to have a map that shows where the various 
> people in the community are located on the planet.
> 
> My fuzzy idea is that members of the community would put ICBM tags[1] 
> on some web page of their.  That can drive the map building.  Use the 
> author tag to grab their names.  They then put some other kind of tag 
> on a page, like
>
> They then poke something we keep back at central command so we can 
> accumulate the list.  If we use committers repository for that we can 
> easily authenticate people.
> 
> If we keep it simple to start we can obviously do assorted richer 
> things later, but if all we try to do up front is get a map of the 
> committers that would be sufficiently neat.
> 
> wdyt?

cool.  i did this a couple of weeks ago in my web log pages
http://ken.coar.org/blog/>.  i didn't make the connexion
with using it to find out where *we* are; that's excellent.
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Sander Striker wrote:
>> 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed.
> 
> Yes.  It has been a misnomer from the start.

and apparently some members of the minority seem unable to just let
go and accept and work with the will of the majority, preferring
to snipe any time the opportunity arises.

sorry, but not only has this been a really bad week for me, but
i'm bloody well sick and tired of people using this list to
look back on what they (as a minority) thought was done wrong,
rather than using it to look forward on how to do things right.
or at least better.

nothing personal, sander.  my response would be the same for
anyone else making that remark.
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Joshua Slive wrote:
> 
> I will reiterate my arguments, then I'll go away for to save you all the
> pain of my opinions:

better, hold on to your opinions and read the archives as soon
as they're available.  *then* give us the pain. :-)

> 1. The list is, at minimum, terribly misnamed.  The Apache community
> consists of more than just committers.

not the community for which this list was created, it doesn't.
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Re: Open community (was ... secret discussions ...)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

um, the decision was to have open archives but subscriber-only
posting, iirc.  that makes the list open for viewing as you seem
to be saying it is not, joshua, while also satisfying the people
who don't want it to be *wide* open and allowing drive-by
comments and spam.  it is a directed list for asf committers,
*not* an open list for discussion about apache by the general
public.  you want the latter, request/propose it -- but please
refrain from rehashing and trying to repurpose something that
has already been decided.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: [poll] weblog package on apache.org ?

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Thom May wrote:
> 
>> - Should we select a Java based solution (the request came from
>>   jakarta-general initially), or anything else ?
>> 
> I think this question and the following one are  premature. We need to agree
> on the necessity of *having* committer or project blogging before discussing
> what technology we should be looking at.

s/necessity/appropriateness/

'necessity' is always a very, very poor metric for imposing limitations.
it is not 'necessary' for automobiles to be able to travel at velocities
in excess of ~100Kph, therefore no automobiles should be able to do so.

otherwise, +1.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"


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Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

Sam Ruby wrote:
It certainly is easier to migrate content that exists, even if it is in 
the wrong format, than content that does not exist.
+1!
as usual, sam demonstrates his uncanny knack to cut through the
persiflage to one of the real issues.
--
#kenP-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

James Taylor wrote:

How viable is it to machine migrate the content?
The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
work will be needed.
Brilliant!
what's yer beef?  at least something got *done*!
/me runs away
--
#kenP-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"