subject:"Phone"


Am 16.03.2015 um 15:38 schrieb Alfa21-mobile :

> 
> 
> Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right from 
> the beginning (and therefore still is) to give
> those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some newer 
> peripherals.
> 
> Like a replacement motor for an old car.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, and also for me it's interesting a new engine for an old car, but you 
> will never exit from the 1&2 statement if new users will remain cut off from 
> the game, imho.
> 
> your solution is directed only to a subset of older users and this can hardly 
> embrace a wide audience that allows to lower the final prices
> 
> from my pov, you are cutting out both:
> - fresh users, potentially interested in getting a real open phone
> - old users, interested in getting an open phone competitive on price

It looks as if you are thinking along a “one solution fits everyone” strategy.

GTA04A5 is a solution for some group which is completely feasible, no dream, no 
vapourware.
It is a tested design and just needs to be financed to be produced.

Of course it does not make everybody happy.

But it does also not exclude to have something different (GTA05…) in the 
future. But it must be clear
that a GTA05 needs a lot of work, prefinancing of engineering and time (expect 
> 1 year to develop
from scratch including injection moulds). So this also does not make everyone 
happy.

And it is much less lilkely to happen at all because it needs this prefinancing 
stuff…

Therefore we are not cutting out anyone - I am simply honest not to promise the
impossible (competitive price and new and immediately available). I prefer to 
say
what is possible and reachable. Like a low hanging fruit: GTA04A5.

> 
>  
> > -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a
> > neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5
> >
> > -2 The device is in "mass" production, compared to the volumes of GTA04
> > or neo900
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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Francesco De Vita

Hi

> I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not
> lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from
> this list who is doing so. I will continue using the GTA02 until
> finaly breaks something, display or board, and will hope to update
> it. How and when such an update is possible?

I did it too until the last summer when audio and battery issues became 
an inconvenience during my work days. I searched for help but with no 
success. Since then I'm using some dumbphones.

If I should buy a new phone my choice is restricted to the GTA04, the 
Jolla phone and the Ubuntu phone. But a budget limit and the readiness 
of the device for the everyday usage constitute constraints to reckon 
with.

Is good to see some life in this ML (: thank you all.

Ciao
Francesco

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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Alfa21-mobile

>
>
>
> Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right
> from the beginning (and therefore still is) to give
> those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some
> newer peripherals.
>
> Like a replacement motor for an old car.
>
>

I know, and also for me it's interesting a new engine for an old car, but
you will never exit from the 1&2 statement if new users will remain cut off
from the game, imho.

your solution is directed only to a subset of older users and this can
hardly embrace a wide audience that allows to lower the final prices

from my pov, you are cutting out both:
- fresh users, potentially interested in getting a real open phone
- old users, interested in getting an open phone competitive on price


> -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a
> neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5
>
> -2 The device is in "mass" production, compared to the volumes of GTA04
> or neo900
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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

Hi,
I had not planned to make it a statement-reply session, but it has converted 
into one :)

Am 16.03.2015 um 14:47 schrieb Alfa21-mobile :

> Hi *,
> 
> I think it’s difficult to gain interest of new users if a new user must buy 
> an old casing first of being able to use the new hardware

> 
> also, old casings are a limited resource and are awful to look compared to 
> newer and slimmer styles

Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right from 
the beginning (and therefore still is) to give
those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some newer 
peripherals.

Like a replacement motor for an old car.

> moreover the old casings eventually need to be modified (drilled) by the 
> final user to host the camera
> 
> 
> just my 2cents,
> A21

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Alfa21-mobile

Hi *,

I think it's difficult to gain interest of new users if a new user must buy
an old casing first of being able to use the new hardware

also, old casings are a limited resource and are awful to look compared to
newer and slimmer styles

moreover the old casings eventually need to be modified (drilled) by the
final user to host the camera


just my 2cents,
A21
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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

Hi,

Am 16.03.2015 um 13:40 schrieb Neal H. Walfield :

> At Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:43:51 +0100,
> Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 
>> there is no 1.
>> 
>> What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of
>> buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down
>> (higher quantity buyer).
> 
> My impression of the GTA04 marketing message is: the more people who
> buy, the cheaper the phone will be!  

> Unfortunately, it hasn't been
> very clear to me how much cheaper.  I suspect that the same is true
> for other people, particularly those who are not following the project
> as closely as I have.
> 
> If I knew that the GTA04 could be produced for 300 Euro if say, 2000,
> were produced, that could help me convince other people.  Of course,
> if someone is willing to buy today, they might not be willing to wait
> a year.

Well, there is a rough indication 
http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5

• the final price is expected to be (incl. 19% German VAT)
• 599 EUR if we reach 100 production units
• 549 EUR if we reach 200 production units
• 499 EUR if we reach 500 production units
   but we will try everything to get below this target! But
   EUR/USD exchange rate development is beyond our control

> 
> One way around this is to use the strategy that kickstarter uses: only
> fund it if a threshold is reached.

We also have that. The threshold is 100 units preordered (where each
pre-order voucher at 100 EUR or above counts for one unit). This is equivalent
to a threshold of 1 EUR which could be used to secure some critical
components (e.g. 3G Modem, memory chips, WiFi module).

If we don’t reach this threshold before the 3G modem really becomes 
unobtainable,
the campaign ends unfunded. We just don’t have a fixed date for the campaign.

> Just a thought…

Any thought is always welcome!

Thanks,
Nikolaus

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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Neal H. Walfield

At Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:43:51 +0100,
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 
> there is no 1.
> 
> What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of
> buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down
> (higher quantity buyer).

My impression of the GTA04 marketing message is: the more people who
buy, the cheaper the phone will be!  Unfortunately, it hasn't been
very clear to me how much cheaper.  I suspect that the same is true
for other people, particularly those who are not following the project
as closely as I have.

If I knew that the GTA04 could be produced for 300 Euro if say, 2000,
were produced, that could help me convince other people.  Of course,
if someone is willing to buy today, they might not be willing to wait
a year.

One way around this is to use the strategy that kickstarter uses: only
fund it if a threshold is reached.

Just a thought...

:) Neal

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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Nick

Quoth g...@unixarea.de: 
> I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not
> lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this
> list who is doing so.

I am too. The only thing that makes me tempted to switch phones is 
redphone or chatsecure, basically. The GTA02 sucks, in some ways, 
but I have no plans to buy a less free phone than it, so I'll stay 
where I am for now. If my GTA02 broke I'd probably get whatever 
phone was best supported by the replicant project, second hand, but 
it's a pleasingly solid piece of hardware :)

Nick


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread guru

El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 09:34:37AM +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller 
escribió:

> > Thanks for the info.
> > 
> >> I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out!
> > 
> > Me too on March 12 in the flash sell. The money is already cut from my
> > credit card, so there is hope that I will get one :-)
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the 
> GTA04A5?
> 
> Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite…
> 
> I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in 
> March 2015.

Hi Nikolas,

I'm using since 2008 the FR as my one and only cellphone. This is not
lying, it is just a fact. And I do not know any other person from this
list who is doing so. I will continue using the GTA02 until finaly
breaks something, display or board, and will hope to update it. How and
when such an update is possible?

On the other hand, the Ubuntu phone is something to just play/test with
it and the price allowed me this decision. Maybe I will give it to my
wife who is using an old Nokia phone and we both are unwilling to use
some Android spying and 'phoning home' device.

matthias

-- 
Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211
"Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände 
menschlich bilden."
"Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar 
humanamente
las circunstancias", Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familiA

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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread joerg Reisenweber

On Mon 16 March 2015 10:43:51 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Our key problem is that we don’t have a big budget to spend for a new GTA05
> that can compete with others.

The Neo900 UG long term business plan has perspectives to change that, 
eventually :-)

cheers
jOERG
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/\  
against html e-mail - against proprietary attachments
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http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German)


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

Hi Ed,

Am 16.03.2015 um 09:58 schrieb Ed Kapitein :

>> <
>> Interesting.
>> 
>> Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the 
>> GTA04A5?
>> 
>> Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite…
>> 
>> I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in 
>> March 2015.
>> 
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
> 
> Hi Nikolaus,
> 
> A couple of things made me decide to buy the ubuntu phone.

thanks!

> 
> -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a
> neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5
> 
> -2 The device is in "mass" production, compared to the volumes of GTA04
> or neo900

well, this is the simple hen&egg situation that we face for some years.

For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 
there is no 1.

What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of
buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down
(higher quantity buyer).

They can, because Ubuntu is not only a free (as in free beer) OS but Canonical
sells maintenance services (ubuntu advantage) to get the money to run
their operations.

This type of services is something our community lacks. And is even beyond the
openmoko approach (because it focusses on the client side while the money is
with servers, clouds and content).

> 
> -3 Development is done by a huge team, with a long track record in
> development.

Well, the team here was big - but has become smaller and smaller.

I just wonder if they have a longer track record than the Openmoko
community.

Hm. Makes me think about:
* would people be interested in a real maintained Openmoko distribution
* combining everything we have (kernel, Replicant, QtMoko and other choices)
* not only for Openmoko devices but others as well to get a broader audience
* regularily maintained by fixed team
* those who spend let’s say 5 EUR / month get bug fixes and updates first


> -4 Using old components from the GTA02 to build a GTA04 will get me a
> "new" phone with and 8 year old screen, 8 year old battery, 8 year old
> case etc.

This is mostly a consequence of 1 and 2. A GTA05 could be much more
modern and made out of all-new components. But because of 1 and 2 there
is no GTA05.

> 
> But i really appreciate what all members from the gta02 community have
> done in the past and are still doing today!
> 
> Big thanks from me.
> Ed

Big thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Our key problem is that we don’t have a big budget to spend for a new GTA05
that can compete with others.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Ed Kapitein

><
> Interesting.
> 
> Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the 
> GTA04A5?
> 
> Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite…
> 
> I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in 
> March 2015.
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus

Hi Nikolaus,

A couple of things made me decide to buy the ubuntu phone.

-1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a
neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5

-2 The device is in "mass" production, compared to the volumes of GTA04
or neo900

-3 Development is done by a huge team, with a long track record in
development.

-4 Using old components from the GTA02 to build a GTA04 will get me a
"new" phone with and 8 year old screen, 8 year old battery, 8 year old
case etc.

But i really appreciate what all members from the gta02 community have
done in the past and are still doing today!

Big thanks from me.
Ed





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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

Hi,

Am 16.03.2015 um 09:00 schrieb Matthias Apitz :

> El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 08:46:09AM +0100, Ed Kapitein escribió:
> 
>>> What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture
>>> from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at
>>> the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> matthias
>> 
>> Hi Matthias,
>> 
>> As far as i can tell, they use mir [1] > [1] http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/
> 
> Hi Ed,
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
>> I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out!
> 
> Me too on March 12 in the flash sell. The money is already cut from my
> credit card, so there is hope that I will get one :-)

Interesting.

Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the 
GTA04A5?

Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite…

I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in 
March 2015.

BR,
Nikolaus
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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Matthias Apitz

El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 08:46:09AM +0100, Ed Kapitein escribió:

> > What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture
> > from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at
> > the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > matthias
> 
> Hi Matthias,
> 
> As far as i can tell, they use mir [1] > [1] http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the info.

> I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out!

Me too on March 12 in the flash sell. The money is already cut from my
credit card, so there is hope that I will get one :-)

matthias

-- 
Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211
"Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände 
menschlich bilden."
"Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar 
humanamente
las circunstancias", Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familia

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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Ed Kapitein

On Mon, 2015-03-16 at 08:31 +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I saw on the net a video about the BQ Aquaris E4.5 Ubuntu phone:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR4baLQmU0s
> (english 40min)
> Jono Bacon, former Ubuntu Community Manager, shares a video with a
> detailed review and demo of the new bq Aquaris E4.5, complete with
> commentary on the wider scopes and convergence strategy
> 
> What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture
> from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at
> the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly.
> 
> Thanks
> 
>   matthias

Hi Matthias,

As far as i can tell, they use mir [1]
I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out!

Kid regards,
Ed

[1] http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/



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OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

2015-03-16 Thread Matthias Apitz


Hello,

I saw on the net a video about the BQ Aquaris E4.5 Ubuntu phone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR4baLQmU0s
(english 40min)
Jono Bacon, former Ubuntu Community Manager, shares a video with a
detailed review and demo of the new bq Aquaris E4.5, complete with
commentary on the wider scopes and convergence strategy

What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture
from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at
the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly.

Thanks

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211
"Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände 
menschlich bilden."
"Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar 
humanamente
las circunstancias", Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familia

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Re: [ot] Pi-Phone or blackberry-pi ?

2014-06-22 Thread Paul Wise

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 8:15 PM, Ed Kapitein wrote:

> I took a model A raspberry pi [1] a tft screen [2] and a Arduino gsm shield
> [3] to create a "mobile phone" [4]

These folks did something similar:

http://www.freetronics.com/products/arduphone-arduino-compatible-cellphone

-- 
bye,
pabs

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Re: [ot] Pi-Phone or blackberry-pi ?

2014-06-22 Thread Alex Samorukov


On 06/22/2014 02:15 PM, Ed Kapitein wrote:


Some of the reasons to build a phone myself were:

-1 because you can ;-)
-2 the pi is made in large quantities and has a big community.
-3 up-to-date kernel
-4 huge collection of programs in the raspbian repository.

I hope it inspires someone to build a better model, smaller and with a 
better battery life.


Interesting. BTW, i would recommends to use any recent 3G modem instead 
of Arduino gsm shield. Some pros and cons:


1. Cheaper (you can find one for something like 5-15USD on local auctions)
2. Supports recent data (HDSPA+, etc.) connectivity as well as SMS and
   Voice
3. Voice functionality already integrated with Asterisk (chan_dongle),
   so easy to integrate with any VoIP software and hardware
4. Can be unplugged any time and used as 3G dongle if needed :)

I am using this configuration (raspberry + chan_dongle + modem) as 
outgoing gateway to the mobile network. If i need this dongle as backup 
ISP connection i am just unplugging it and all traffic goes via backup 
SIP link :)


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[ot] Pi-Phone or blackberry-pi ?

2014-06-22 Thread Ed Kapitein


Hi All,

I took a model A raspberry pi [1] a tft screen [2] and a Arduino gsm 
shield [3] to create a "mobile phone" [4]


It was a fun experiment to do, and in the end it did gave me a "phone" i 
can use.
Unfortunately, it became so big and heavy, that it is more something to 
put on your desk as a clock. [5]


Some of the reasons to build a phone myself were:

-1 because you can ;-)
-2 the pi is made in large quantities and has a big community.
-3 up-to-date kernel
-4 huge collection of programs in the raspbian repository.

I hope it inspires someone to build a better model, smaller and with a 
better battery life.


Kind regards,
Ed


[1] 
http://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/raspberry_pi_model_a_05.jpg

[2] http://www.adafruit.com/products/1601
[3] http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoGSMShield
[4] http://phranky.kapitein.org/images/100.JPG
[5] http://phranky.kapitein.org/images/1600.JPG




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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-16 Thread Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 15:00:07 -0400
Stefan Monnier  wrote:
> And it would be bulkier and more expensive than a non-modular phone,
> of course.
http://components.arrow.com/part/search/buglabs
The main cost in doing that is the plastic of the modules.

Denis.

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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-16 Thread Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 17:24:51 +0200
"Raphael Wimmer"  wrote:

> * The concept assumes that all components use a common communication  
> backplane. This is not feasible, as a variety of voltages and  
> communication protocols are in use in a typical phone (I2C, SPI,
> UART, USB, various display protocols, etc.). Many components need
> very short connections to the CPU/GPU/whatever without crossing other
> PCB traces. It is not realistic to make this work with a generic
> communication backplane. Proper heat dissipation for CPU/GPU is
> another problem.
Or to use big connectors...that have dedicated pins for all theses
things...like with the bug device 2.0 from buglabs.

Denis.

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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-16 Thread Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli

On Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:19:18 +0200
joerg Reisenweber  wrote:

> In the last 50 years I've seen only _one_ truly modular concept for
> electronic circuits that would basically meet the flexibility
> requirements you are asking for: 
> http://makezine.com/2011/12/08/the-braun-lectron-system-retro-circuit-
> dominoes/
> 
> /j

The bug device 2.0 from buglabs is modular too.
(The kernel is a bit old though: 2.6.35)

Denis.

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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-08 Thread Davide Scaini

Someone was talking about a modular phone, right?
Have a look at this (spoiler: it's not a phone ;) yet)

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1123-this-could-be-the-biggest-advance-in-camera-design-for-a-decade

Regards,
d

On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Kai Lüke  wrote:
> Hi,
> GTAx is allready more extensible than normal smartphones because of usb
> host mode. And any different fast data connector I think about might
> allow an attacker to get access to your system, like the hacks with
> firewire.
> I also think it would be nice to have modular phone, but this is a huge
> goal and seems to need serious research and many iterations of practise
> before you are happy with it.
>
> Regards,
> Kai
>
>
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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Kai Lüke

Hi,
GTAx is allready more extensible than normal smartphones because of usb
host mode. And any different fast data connector I think about might
allow an attacker to get access to your system, like the hacks with
firewire.
I also think it would be nice to have modular phone, but this is a huge
goal and seems to need serious research and many iterations of practise
before you are happy with it.

Regards,
Kai


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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Stefan Monnier

> There are numerous threads on Reddit that explain very well why this is not
> feasible [1,2,many]

This is bogus.  It is feasible.  Just not quite in the way those people
ask for it.  E.g. you wouldn't have just a CPU module, and instead you'd
have a module that combines the CPU with many other things.  So the
whole phone would be made up of very few modules: a case, a screen,
a battery, and one or two "electronics" modules.

And it would be bulkier and more expensive than a non-modular phone,
of course.

I for one would be willing to pay twice as much for such a phone, even
if it's twice as thick.


Stefan


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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller


Am 05.10.2013 um 17:19 schrieb joerg Reisenweber:

> In the last 50 years I've seen only _one_ truly modular concept for 
> electronic 
> circuits that would basically meet the flexibility requirements you are 
> asking 
> for: 
> http://makezine.com/2011/12/08/the-braun-lectron-system-retro-circuit-
> dominoes/

My father did own one - unfortunately I don't know where it is now.

-- hns
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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Raphael Wimmer

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 17:04:24 +0200, Pascal Gosselin
wrote:

[...]
If technically feasible, this project I believe stands the best chance
of obtaining funding as the concept has wide appeal.

Interesting long-term vision: maybe.
Short-term replacement for GTA04: no.

I posted this on the OpenPhoenux list recently:

There are numerous threads on Reddit that explain very well why this is
not feasible [1,2,many]

The (imho) most important ones in short:
* Mechanical modularity increases size and cost, makes it harder to create
a beautiful phone, and is not in the manufacturer's commercial interests.
Therefore, it would be hard to find companies/customers to build/buy this.
* Many current components are highly integrated - SoCs, sensor ICs,
Display/Touchscreen, etc. Making these modular would require development
of many new components (and would increase size, cost, power consumption).
* The concept assumes that all components use a common communication
backplane. This is not feasible, as a variety of voltages and
communication protocols are in use in a typical phone (I2C, SPI, UART,
USB, various display protocols, etc.). Many components need very short
connections to the CPU/GPU/whatever without crossing other PCB traces. It
is not realistic to make this work with a generic communication backplane.
Proper heat dissipation for CPU/GPU is another problem.

In summary, while it is certainly feasible to build a modular phone (look
at David Mellis' DIY cellphone [3]), doing so for current hardware would
involve major engineering effort (== design and manufacture dozens of new
chips) and would result in less stable, more expensive, and less beautiful
phones requiring more power.

Raphael

[1]
http://www.reddit.com/r/gadgets/comments/1m6y1q/that_phonebloks_things_annoyed_me_so_here_are_17/
[2]
http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1m4pmy/eli5_why_is_phonebloks_a_bad_idea/

[many] http://www.reddit.com/r/all/search?q=phonebloks&restrict_sr=on
[3] http://hlt.media.mit.edu/?p=2182

Dipl.-Medieninf. Raphael Wimmer
Wiss. Mitarbeiter / Research Assistant
Doktorand / PhD student

Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München E-Mail: raphael.wim...@ifi.lmu.de
LFE Medieninformatik Skype: real_raphman
Amalienstr. 17 / Raum 206WWW:
http://www.medien.ifi.lmu.de

80333 MünchenTel:+49 (89) 2180-4659
Germany Fax:+49 (89) 2180-99-4659

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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 17:14 schrieb Pascal Gosselin:

> On 2013-10-05 11:06 AM, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin  
>> wrote:
>>> If technically feasible
>> That's the problem.
>> 
> What immediately jumps to my mind is the small number of pins for the 
> modules, forcing everything to be based on serial interfaces.

Look at what MIPI.org has defined since 10 years. Display, Camera, Modem are 
all serial interfaces to use less wires. But nobody (not Apple or Samsung or 
HTC or Motogoogle or Micronokiasoft) has done a modular device.

> It's probably not realistic to be able to change a CPU module that way for 
> example.  Dicy for a camera module too.   But for tons of other I/O 
> applications, I think it's quite feasible.
> 
> The guy behind this seems hesitant to bring it to Kickstarter. Maybe he's got 
> VC plans instead.  Maybe he has no plans... !

I would assume that his plan is to get publicity for his person. Not for the 
project.

Promise people infinite life or flying to the moon and they will follow...

-- hns
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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller


Am 05.10.2013 um 17:06 schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak:

> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin  wrote:
>> If technically feasible
> 
> That's the problem.

++



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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread joerg Reisenweber

In the last 50 years I've seen only _one_ truly modular concept for electronic 
circuits that would basically meet the flexibility requirements you are asking 
for: 
http://makezine.com/2011/12/08/the-braun-lectron-system-retro-circuit-
dominoes/

/j
-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German)


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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Ian Stirling



On 10/05/2013 04:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin wrote:


While I understand the needs/wants of open hardware, the average 
smartphone user really couldn't care less. That's the core of the 
problem, lack of a large user base.


HOWEVER, what a *lot* people seem to be interested in, is an open 
architecture MODULAR smartphone that could be customized.  You want a 
bigger battery ?  A better GPS ?  A better camera ? Audio/video inputs 
?  Discrete inputs ?   Serial ports ?  Ethernet ? Absolutely !


Close to 900,000 people have indicated current interest in making this 
happen.


http://www.phonebloks.com/
Unfortunately, it seems the technical understanding of the people 
involved is limited.

This is basically at the level of a 5-year-old trying to design a car.
'Ok - it needs wheels and doors and a ball-pit'. Without the knowledge 
of what the transmission or suspension is.


There are many challenges to making modular systems.
Let's consider a module - and not even go into specifics.

Firstly - you need to make it a given size - or it won't fit into the phone.
This means that either you make the modules large, and may waste space 
in them, or you make them small, and risk stuff not fitting.

Secondly, you add costs.
This starts at the connector(s) - fine pitch very dense connectors are 
expensive! Especially if they need to deal with RF - and fragile.
Another cost is overcapacity - if you have a phone, you can design the 
power supply to be adequate.

Overdesigning it to cope with upgrades costs money.
Now we run into the issue of reliability - part of the reason modern 
phones are comparatively reliable is they have almost no connectors.

Certainly none that require mating/unmating by the user.

Now, you also need to pay for extra antistatic components on each end of 
the module interface, a case for the module, a place in the phone for 
the module to fit in, and mechanical support so it doesn't fall out.

Then the issue of antennas arises.

Can it be done - sure!
Will it be twice the price, twice the weight, a quarter of the 
reliability - very likely.


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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Pascal Gosselin


On 2013-10-05 11:06 AM, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:

On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin  wrote:

If technically feasible

That's the problem.

What immediately jumps to my mind is the small number of pins for the 
modules, forcing everything to be based on serial interfaces.


It's probably not realistic to be able to change a CPU module that way 
for example.  Dicy for a camera module too.   But for tons of other I/O 
applications, I think it's quite feasible.


The guy behind this seems hesitant to bring it to Kickstarter. Maybe 
he's got VC plans instead.  Maybe he has no plans... !


-Pascal



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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak

On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin  wrote:
> If technically feasible

That's the problem.

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos
http://dosowisko.net/

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The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

2013-10-05 Thread Pascal Gosselin



While I understand the needs/wants of open hardware, the average 
smartphone user really couldn't care less. That's the core of the 
problem, lack of a large user base.


HOWEVER, what a *lot* people seem to be interested in, is an open 
architecture MODULAR smartphone that could be customized.  You want a 
bigger battery ?  A better GPS ?  A better camera ?   Audio/video inputs 
?  Discrete inputs ?   Serial ports ?  Ethernet ? Absolutely !


Close to 900,000 people have indicated current interest in making this 
happen.


http://www.phonebloks.com/

If technically feasible, this project I believe stands the best chance 
of obtaining funding as the concept has wide appeal.


Otherwise, while not ideal, the supported ability to load open source 
firmware on nice current hardware would mostly negate the need for 
something like an "Ubuntu Smartphone".  Most Android hardware vendors 
however seem quite focused on making certain that your phone won't last 
very long, they are "abandonware" products. Lots of decent phones 
officially stuck at Android 2.3 or earlier and hard to root.


-Pascal






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Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-09-03 Thread Nick

I'll reply to this now, even though the thread has been dormant for 
a bit.

Quoth Michael Spacefalcon:
> I see that after your post, the thread on the mailing list veered off
> into a discussion of security.  But that diversion totally misses the
> point: it isn't so much about secure communication as it is about the
> Four Freedoms of software:

The four freedoms are about user freedom. And to me freedom from 
surveillance is an very important aspect of living and thinking 
freely.  You're quite right the FSF don't explicitly list this, but 
to me it is just as important as their four freedoms (and indeed 
depends on them).

But anyway. Meeting the four freedoms is an excellent place to 
start!
 
> There also are some practical considerations that affect only feature
> phones and not smartphones.  I have yet to encounter a phone UI design
> that doesn't suck, and I hope that most people on this list will agree
> with me that being able to customize the UI to one's preferences is an
> essential freedom that a geeky, empowered phone user should have - and
> I mean *really* customize the UI, not just twiddle menu settings, but
> being able to study, modify or even totally rewrite the UI code.

The ability to customise is good, but to be honest I am OK with just 
learning whatever weird idioms and bugs exist on a platform and 
working around them. Though obviously I've never had much choice 
before.

> Now look at the situation from the perspective of a user who does NOT
> want his or her phone to be anything other than a plain phone.  For
> such a user, a non-smart feature phone ought to be ideal, but if the
> user also wants the freedom to fully own the UI design, s/he currently
> has to pay for an otherwise completely unnecessary application
> processor.  And when I say "pay for", I'm *not* referring to the
> purchase price of the device - I would gladly pay a lot more for my
> ideal Free Dumb Phone than the most expensive GTA04 or Ubuntu Edge or
> whatever.  Instead I mean pay for in terms of carrying extra weight,
> extra power consumption, extra system complexity otherwise unneeded,
> many additional points of failure, etc.
> 
> *That* is what I seek to rectify with my Free Dumb Phone project,
> aside from the moral issue.  Freedom is a right that all phone users
> should enjoy, not a privilege that's limited to just Linux smartphones
> to the exclusion of non-smart feature phones.

Sounds great to me.

> > I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some 
> > things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and 
> > ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, 
> > if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home 
> > PC in a few days, you're still screwed.
> 
> The GSM encryption is a red herring - it makes absolutely no difference
> whether it's there or not.  Imagine if the GSM encryption were perfect
> and unbreakable - what would change?  Nothing.  The over-the-air
> encryption is only between the mobile station and the network.  In a
> public phone network, where you can dial the phone number of any
> stranger and hear each other's voices if the other party answers,
> encryption can't be end-to-end.  The network has to be able to decrypt
> with one end's key and re-encrypt with a different key for the other
> end, so the network itself has (and must have) access to the cleartext
> form of your digitized voice.
> 
> If I am the world's most wanted criminal and enemy #1 of all major
> governments, and they want to spy on my phone conversations, they
> aren't going to bother with cracking GSM over-the-air encryption,
> they'll just put in a "lawful intercept" at the switch.
> 
> The only way to render all "lawful intercept" mechanisms ineffective
> is to use end-to-end encryption.  That won't work when calling
> strangers, or calling the transit line to check bus/train schedules
> etc, but it's a very feasible mechanism for private and secure
> communication mechanism among family members, friends etc.

Aah, thanks for the clarification. Of course you're right, I hadn't 
thought through the GSM encryption thing, but of course it's only 
between the mobile station and the network. So yes, end-to-end is 
the only way, and that will obviously be a more distant goal (and 
one that sadly is impossible to make compatible with many other 
things). Fine.

> > Because one of the nice things of free software traditionally has 
> > been the ability to say "it's free software, so I can do what I like 
> > with it, and you can't invoke state violence against me for doing 
> > so

Re: Re. Building a totally new smart phone

Adam Bogacki  wrote:

> Now that I have dir 'freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5' I am not quite sure what
> to do.
> Is there some documentation available, or a man page ?

No documentation has been written yet, because there is nothing to
document yet: all that's there is a FreeNucleus RTOS skeleton and some
host tools for pushing code images to the Calypso.  See my earlier
posts in this thread for my planned roadmap of adding "meat" to this
skeleton.

The FreeCalypso project is still in a very early stage - most projects
aren't even announced at all when they are this early in the development
process.  The only reason why I'm releasing this code at all is to
satisfy the moral requirement: on my planet it is a crime to have some
ware and not share it, no matter what the ware is.

If you want to play with the current code just for fun (there isn't
anything more that you would be able to do with it), you should be able
to at least compile it, and if you have one of the two supported phone
models (DP-L10 or GTA02), even run it and see the serial output from
the FreeNucleus demo app.  The steps are:

1. Build and install the arm-elf cross-compile toolchain.  Look in the
   toolchain directory and it should be obvious.

2. Using that toolchain, compile the target-utils part.  (Just run make
   in the target-utils subdir with the toolchain in your PATH.)
   You'll get the loadagent.srec image.

3. Compile loadtools - again, just run make in the corresponding
   directory.  These are host tools, so they need to run on whatever
   Unix/Linux machine you'll be using to push code to the Calypso.  If
   you are doing this with a Pirelli phone, FreeCalypso loadtools need
   to run on your PC/desktop/laptop.  If you are playing with a GTA02
   instead, you will need to either make a special cable to get to the
   Calypso via the headphone jack, or build loadtools to run on the
   GTA02 AP.

4. Once you've got loadtools, loadagent.srec and a compatible Calypso
   phone, you can actually try running this stuff.  If you have
   successfully passed steps 1 through 3, but are having difficulties
   with this step, ask and I'll help you.  If you are still struggling
   with one of the previous steps, work on that first.

A command like this (from a laptop with a Pirelli DP-L10 phone
connected and showing up as /dev/ttyUSB0):

fc-loadtool -h pirelli /dev/ttyUSB0

or like this (from the GTA02 AP, talking to the Calypso part of the
same phone):

fc-loadtool -h gta02 /dev/ttySAC0

should produce output that looks like this:

Sending beacons to /dev/ttyUSB0
Got beacon response, attempting download

The 3 lines beginning with "FreeCalypso loadagent running" will be
printed by code running on the Calypso chip itself, which you would
have built in step 2.  Once you are at the loadtool prompt, you are
interacting with the host utility you would have built in step 3,
which is in turn communicating over a serial channel with loadagent.srec
running on the Calypso.  Loadtool has commands for things like peeking
and poking registers, dumping and programming flash, etc.  But right
now the only documentation is the source code.  Type exit, quit or ^D
when you are done - it'll reboot the Pirelli phone or power off the
GTA02 GSM modem.

5. The Nucleus-based skeleton for what is meant to become the main GSM
   firmware lives in the nuc-fw directory.  You can build it as soon as
   you've got the arm-elf toolchain from step 1.  Unlike loadagent,
   which is meant to remain "universal" for all Calypso phones (just
   like TI's FLUID), the main firmware obviously has to be configured
   for a specific target.  The snapshot you are looking at has the
   beginnings of the configuration mechanism, but the latter doesn't
   do anything yet.  For now all that's there is the Nucleus demo, and
   it happens to be the same for all phones, so just type make in the
   nuc-fw directory with the toolchain from step 1 in your PATH.
   You'll get ramImage.srec, which you can run on your Calypso phone
   with the fc-xram utility:

fc-xram -h pirelli /dev/ttyUSB0 ramImage.srec

If you are doing this with a Pirelli DP-L10, you should see the output
from the demo app pouring on your terminal when you run the above
command.  Type ^\ to kill the fc-xram process on your host, but to stop
the demo app running on the phone and make the phone usable again,
you'll have to pull the battery and put it back in.  (And then reset
the clock, as this phone doesn't have a separate RTC backup battery.)

If you are playing with a GTA02 instead, you can run the same
ramImage.srec image, and you can push it with the same fc-xram command
either from inside the phone (from the AP) or from an external host
via that special headphone jack cable, but the demo app's output will
always go to the IrDA UART (unless you change the code in demo.c), so
you won't s

Re: Re. Building a totally new smart phone

2013-08-23 Thread Adam Bogacki


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

.. the ftp*bz2 link works and I have unpacked it.

Now that I have dir 'freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5' I am not quite sure what
to do.
Is there some documentation available, or a man page ?

Searching by 'calypso' or 'freecalypso' did not show anything relevant
when using 'www.deeperweb.com'

Regards,

Adam.

On 24/08/13 13:28, Michael Spacefalcon wrote:
> Adam Bogacki  wrote:
>
>> I have not been able to find working links to freecalypso-sw anywhere.
>
> Not able to find *working* links?  So the link I had posted earlier in
> this thread:
>
>
ftp://ftp.ifctf.org/pub/GSM/FreeCalypso/snapshots/freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5.tar.bz2
>
> is not working for you?
>
> There is also a Mercurial source repository where the development
> takes place:
>
> https://bitbucket.org/falconian/freecalypso-sw
>
> But if it gets taken down because some suppressive person reports it,
> don't blame me.  Of course Mercurial is a distributed SCM just like
> git, hence even if bitbucket.org takes it down, no source or history
> will be lost - but it will make the project inaccessible to others
> (except via the occasional snapshots which I post on my FTP site)
> until we (the FreeCalypso community, currently consisting of one
> developer and a few supporters watching from the sidelines) find a new
> Hg webhost.
>
> VLR,
> SF
>
>


- -- 
Adam Bogacki

adam.boga...@clear.net.nz

http://www.independent.academia.edu/AdamBogacki
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Re. Building a totally new smart phone

Adam Bogacki  wrote:

> I have not been able to find working links to freecalypso-sw anywhere.

Not able to find *working* links?  So the link I had posted earlier in
this thread:

ftp://ftp.ifctf.org/pub/GSM/FreeCalypso/snapshots/freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5.tar.bz2

is not working for you?

There is also a Mercurial source repository where the development
takes place:

https://bitbucket.org/falconian/freecalypso-sw

But if it gets taken down because some suppressive person reports it,
don't blame me.  Of course Mercurial is a distributed SCM just like
git, hence even if bitbucket.org takes it down, no source or history
will be lost - but it will make the project inaccessible to others
(except via the occasional snapshots which I post on my FTP site)
until we (the FreeCalypso community, currently consisting of one
developer and a few supporters watching from the sidelines) find a new
Hg webhost.

VLR,
SF

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Re: Re. Building a totally new smart phone

2013-08-23 Thread joerg Reisenweber

On Sat 24 August 2013 02:04:45 Adam Bogacki wrote:
> I would like to add my vote to the proposal of a totally new non-smart
> phone.
[...]
> I think there is increasing demand for a secure non-smart phone.

There IS NO secure phone! See any of the dozen other mails in this very thread 
about that topic. 
Or rather, there's not even any insecure phone - means you can't make it more 
secure by reviewing the firmware of the modem, since there IS NOTHING insecure 
in the firmware. It's not like you could kick out any rogue hidden backdoors 
since there aren't any, I won't elaborate again why that's evident. There are 
also no flaws in any security related encryptions or whatever that you could 
fix 
in the phone firmware, since those flaws (if any relevant) exist in the 
protocol 
spec and you need to fix both ends, mobile and BTS. And this still leaves all 
the other vulnerabilities of all public networks which always allow 
eavesdropping on a multitude of levels not under the control of the phone's 
firmware.

Increasing demand for secure phone? I offer the only solution: adjust your 
habits, improve your knowledge. The phone is as secure as the user who 
operates it.

/j
-- 
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Re. Building a totally new smart phone

2013-08-23 Thread Adam Bogacki


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I would like to add my vote to the proposal of a totally new non-smart
phone.

A recent article in 'The Futurist' has flagged the demise of the current
model of the 'smartphone'  in favour of less intrusive devices such as
glasses and watches.

http://www.wfs.org/futurist/2013-issues-futurist/september-october-2013-vol-47-no-5/top-10-disappearing-futures/disap-7

I have not been able to find working links to freecalypso-sw anywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_Technology

I think there is increasing demand for a secure non-smart phone.

Good luck,

Adam.

- -- 
Adam Bogacki

adam.boga...@clear.net.nz

http://www.independent.academia.edu/AdamBogacki
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Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-23 Thread joerg Reisenweber

On Fri 23 August 2013 21:07:14 Michael Spacefalcon wrote:
> > I would be 
> > very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the 
> > meantime.
> 
> Then maybe you should try talking some sense into Joerg etc - maybe
> they'll listen to you more than they are willing to listen to me.

I wonder how a single brain can produce that much nonsense and be that dull. 
You seem a smart guy otherwise, so I really don't grok how you can be so weird 
in this single issue.
I told you everybody who been interested - except you - got access to the 
sources you're so terribly _not_ wanting (I wonder what now. Do you need them 
or not? And if you do, then for what since you already got the full radio 
stack which OM never had, and you're not interested in the AT interpreter of 
GTA0x modem but rather in any "UI" which obviously OM also never had). 
Everybody except you since I don't give access to stuff that's under NDA to a 
guy who's calling OM a bunch of rogue idiots and threatening to shoot me. Also 
you clearly say you're not asking for me handing that stuff to you (verbatim, 
see your prev mail) , you want me to PUBLISH it under my full name and stating 
loud that I don't give a flying F about the NDA contracts I'm under, thus 
ruining my professional career just to meet your idea of how industry and FOSS 
and community and the world at large works or should or ought work.
Grow up, dude! You're biting the hand that feeds you, like a rabid dog. Won't 
happen (again, recall glamo?). 
You're seriously blaming OM and its employees for not violating the agreements 
they had to sign (and believe me, we tried hard to avoid signing any such 
agreements, since OM was planned to be as open as feasible), to make the whole 
project possible? I honestly wonder what kind of mater is inside your skull.

YOU are not even worth this lengthy answer, and nobody else got the problem 
YOU have with OM calypso firmware sources, since everybody else asking kindly 
had access to all the stuff since 2011, and nobody found it worth doing much 
leaking about it. Since in some regard, the calypso firmware *is* OSS, it's 
just not FOSS.
Get that! Wrap your head around it. And stop throwing darts at my picture at 
your wall, you honestly need to find a new and better reason for living.

Good bye!
/j

[ps: trying hard to not elaborate on a guy like you talking about morally 
correct behaviour, and about the paradox you're exposing there in just 2 
sentences]

-- 
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(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
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Re: Building a new totally free phone

Nick  wrote:

> Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael.

Yay, one more supporter!

> However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway?  

I see that after your post, the thread on the mailing list veered off
into a discussion of security.  But that diversion totally misses the
point: it isn't so much about secure communication as it is about the
Four Freedoms of software:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

When it comes to the matters of free software philosophy, I am very
much like RMS.  I have a major problem with carrying a device in my
pocket containing firmware for which I lack the source - not because
it is a security threat, but because it's morally wrong.

The only difference between me and RMS/FSF is on the matter of
legalities.  While I define free software in terms of exactly the same
4 freedoms as the FSF, RMS and the "conventional" free sw camp add an
additional condition that these 4 freedoms be exercised legally -
whereas I add no such extra clause: whether it's legally free or
illegally free, it's still free software to me.

There also are some practical considerations that affect only feature
phones and not smartphones.  I have yet to encounter a phone UI design
that doesn't suck, and I hope that most people on this list will agree
with me that being able to customize the UI to one's preferences is an
essential freedom that a geeky, empowered phone user should have - and
I mean *really* customize the UI, not just twiddle menu settings, but
being able to study, modify or even totally rewrite the UI code.

Smartphones have a separate application processor to run the UI, so
you can indeed play with the UI on Linux to your heart's content while
keeping the modem as a black box.  But this approach does not work for
a feature phone where the UI and the modem are tightly integrated into
a single whole.  Exercising full freedom over the UI code in a feature
phone requires having a complete and rebuildable source for the
firmware suite as a whole.  (Having the GSM stack pieces as binary
objects to be linked with the UI source would work too, but then one
gets tied to a proprietary compiler toolchain, etc.  In any case we
already have full source for the GSM stack thanks to the TSM30 and
LoCosto leaks, so it's a solved problem now.)

Now look at the situation from the perspective of a user who does NOT
want his or her phone to be anything other than a plain phone.  For
such a user, a non-smart feature phone ought to be ideal, but if the
user also wants the freedom to fully own the UI design, s/he currently
has to pay for an otherwise completely unnecessary application
processor.  And when I say "pay for", I'm *not* referring to the
purchase price of the device - I would gladly pay a lot more for my
ideal Free Dumb Phone than the most expensive GTA04 or Ubuntu Edge or
whatever.  Instead I mean pay for in terms of carrying extra weight,
extra power consumption, extra system complexity otherwise unneeded,
many additional points of failure, etc.

*That* is what I seek to rectify with my Free Dumb Phone project,
aside from the moral issue.  Freedom is a right that all phone users
should enjoy, not a privilege that's limited to just Linux smartphones
to the exclusion of non-smart feature phones.

> I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some 
> things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and 
> ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, 
> if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home 
> PC in a few days, you're still screwed.

The GSM encryption is a red herring - it makes absolutely no difference
whether it's there or not.  Imagine if the GSM encryption were perfect
and unbreakable - what would change?  Nothing.  The over-the-air
encryption is only between the mobile station and the network.  In a
public phone network, where you can dial the phone number of any
stranger and hear each other's voices if the other party answers,
encryption can't be end-to-end.  The network has to be able to decrypt
with one end's key and re-encrypt with a different key for the other
end, so the network itself has (and must have) access to the cleartext
form of your digitized voice.

If I am the world's most wanted criminal and enemy #1 of all major
governments, and they want to spy on my phone conversations, they
aren't going to bother with cracking GSM over-the-air encryption,
they'll just put in a "lawful intercept" at the switch.

The only way to render all "lawful intercept" mechanisms ineffective
is to use end-to-end encryption.  That won't work when calling
strangers, or calling the transit line to check bus/train schedules
etc, but it's a very feasible mechanism for private and secure
communication mechanism among fami

Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-23 Thread Sebastian Reinhardt


Am 23.08.2013 14:41, schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway?

IMHO the need for the GSM stack being open sourced is largely overestimated.

Security experts say that the question is how to secure communication over an 
unsecure communication medium.

Depending on which level you want to work, you can try to make GSM more secure 
because it is communicating over an inherently unsecure/open medium 
(electro-magnetical wave broadcast).

Or you can just use what others have built into a black box (i.e. a modem with some AT 
commands). They promise that it is "secure enough". But if you want to be 
really secure, just wrap the potentially unsecure channel and encrypt the data sent over 
it.

BTW: all the recent nsa/prism things have shown that it is not sufficient to 
make a fully transparent (aka open sourced) terminal - if it is easy enough to 
tap the network nodes. Or the servers you are communicating with. I.e. securing 
yourself is best done if you put yourself into eremitage...

So in my view, spending additional work to get an open sourced GSM or even UMTS 
firmware stack is a nice excercise for embedded and real time communication 
protocol engineering, but does not make anything more safe or secure than using 
a black box module, because it just tries to increase security of one small hop 
instead of end-to-end.

In other words: security measures must be done on the highest layers of the OSI 
reference model, not on the lowest ones. And that is the area of the 
application processor and OS. And of course documented schematics help to 
understand if there are potential backdoors to circumvent the OS or not. So we 
need a device where you have control over the OS, but not necessarily over the 
inner workings of all peripherals.

-- hns
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I think so, too. At first, everyone is complaining about NSA/PRISM and 
"Orwell". And then, same poeple discuss this topic on "Facefuck" and 
other social media sites, there they have to make an "total data strip". 
It does not make sense! So, the better way is to create an phone with an 
free and save OS, reliable hard- and software, without spyware infected 
apps. I think, this can make the Moko interessting for "bussiness use"! 
One major problem for companies is, the data security (contacts, dates, 
...). Most spyware apps send the data from infected phones via internet 
connection to the criminals/ competitors. Reaching this potential market 
can acquire customers, those are willing and able to  pay more for an 
smartphone.
The idea of getting an communication over GSM/ UMTS without the ability 
of being observed by the secret services can not be realized, because 
they have not to "crack" Your phone, they can get an link into Your 
communication at the next router in Your carriers network (the provider 
are forced by law to make this possible). So do not waste time in this 
idea, there are other issues to solve:


- ability to use the Moko in sunlight (!) => other display (other case 
is required!)

- reliability of hard- and software
- other display, so then change to Multitouch (I do not need it really, 
but needed for creater market acceptance and increasing number of users)
- greatest issue: marketing! (actually there is a real chance to place 
the Moko- idea in peoples mind: [1] so apple and co. are loosing there 
cool image bit by bit)

- maybe, HDMI-output
- working cam, not usable right now :-( (still "pin striped picture")
- better support for data sync (adressbook, dates, ...), not only with 
Google (everyone using this, should not discuss about security!)

- maybe: LTE
- ..[to be continued]..


[1] http://www.cinema.de/film/apple-stories,5693840.html

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Sebastian Reinhardt


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Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-23 Thread Paul Wise

Security experts have moved on from that line of thinking long ago I
think. The problem with it is that a GSM/3G/LTE modem is not just a
communications channel. It is a generic processor running software.
Probably buggy, insecure, proprietary software. Same goes for GPS,
WiFi, Ethernet and other external-facing firmware. Depending on the
architecture of your device and the simplicity and security of the
interface between your modem and your, attackers may be able to turn
their probably relatively-easy-to-aquire modem beachhead into full
control and monitoring of the whole system. This is the reason the
Replicant folks strongly recommend against Qualcomm devices, where the
CPU is controlled by the modem.

Based on the talks I saw at OHM2013, the SIM card may be a similar
threat. The good news is that some SIM cards are insecure enough that
you (and remote attackers) can calculate the Ki, remove the SIM and
use the Ki instead.

OHM2013 also taught me that the carrier networks are full of juicy
insecure Linux based systems, so you don't just have to worry about
carrier collaboration with nation-state adversaries.

Yes, we need better protocols but we also need libre embedded software
and carriers who run libre software and have some ethics.

-- 
bye,
pabs

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Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-23 Thread Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller

> 
> However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway?  

IMHO the need for the GSM stack being open sourced is largely overestimated.

Security experts say that the question is how to secure communication over an 
unsecure communication medium.

Depending on which level you want to work, you can try to make GSM more secure 
because it is communicating over an inherently unsecure/open medium 
(electro-magnetical wave broadcast).

Or you can just use what others have built into a black box (i.e. a modem with 
some AT commands). They promise that it is "secure enough". But if you want to 
be really secure, just wrap the potentially unsecure channel and encrypt the 
data sent over it.

BTW: all the recent nsa/prism things have shown that it is not sufficient to 
make a fully transparent (aka open sourced) terminal - if it is easy enough to 
tap the network nodes. Or the servers you are communicating with. I.e. securing 
yourself is best done if you put yourself into eremitage...

So in my view, spending additional work to get an open sourced GSM or even UMTS 
firmware stack is a nice excercise for embedded and real time communication 
protocol engineering, but does not make anything more safe or secure than using 
a black box module, because it just tries to increase security of one small hop 
instead of end-to-end.

In other words: security measures must be done on the highest layers of the OSI 
reference model, not on the lowest ones. And that is the area of the 
application processor and OS. And of course documented schematics help to 
understand if there are potential backdoors to circumvent the OS or not. So we 
need a device where you have control over the OS, but not necessarily over the 
inner workings of all peripherals.

-- hns
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Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-23 Thread Norayr Chilingarian


Nick, you raised very good questions.

I believe, that we don't need GSM at all. I don't use it for two years 
now.
When we use GSM we use carrier services. Can we be sure that carrier does 
not track us, don't record our calls etc?
For instance, in my country "secret service" has direct access to the 
carrier's switches, and can follow calls of any person in real time. They 
also can write a paper and request this or that person's locations from 
the carrier.


We don't use gmail, because we know they are watching us, then why do we 
use carriers?


The way to be secure is to use trusted service providers, and carriers are 
too big to be trusted.


However we can use own SIP or XMPP servers, we can create small community 
servers where we trust our service providers. And use them for chat/talk. 
Should I mention that we use encryption, in both cases - server to server, 
and client to server.


Here we have connectivity problem. Okay, everybody has a wifi at home (or 
may have). But what if you would like to call someone from the forest?


Here what we can do: get an Internet only tariff, use it for making 
calls/chat etc.
But our location still can be tracked if the carrier requires you to 
identiy yourself when buying a sim card. Here we can do nothing except may 
be mass exchange of sim cards with random people. Like make an action, 
when 1000 people goes to get a card, and then they all exchange cards with 
people they don't even know and won't see most probably in the future.


This also has another plus: why pay for each sms? We can chat in internet 
as long as we wish.


---
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http://norayr.arnet.am/weblog

On Fri, 23 Aug 2013, Nick wrote:


Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. And I,
(unlike I suspect some others on the list) very much like your
framing of the issues, too. I fully support the idea that if a law
makes private conversation illegal, it is a bad law, and regulatory
blocks on GSM that forbid inspectable and modifiable cannot but be
such.

However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway?
I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some
things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and
ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings,
if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home
PC in a few days, you're still screwed.

A truly free phone is a worthy and very important thing for other
reasons, but could such a thing be strongly secure too? Or is the
only solution there to rely on something like ZRTP in voip, and give
up wishing that GSM could provide security?

I've always been somewhat vague about how modems and their
processors interact with other parts of a system. Am I correct in
thinking that once the first firmware part of your project was
complete, one could flash load that the GTA02 modem, and have a (far
more 'smart' and Linux-y than you're ultimately planning) free
openmoko phone? Or would the modem firmware have to be programmed
differently for the GTA02 compared to your feature phone? While I am
more interested in a feature phone than a 'smart' phone, I would be
very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the
meantime.

It's interesting to think of the meanings of 'free' in your message.
Because one of the nice things of free software traditionally has
been the ability to say "it's free software, so I can do what I like
with it, and you can't invoke state violence against me for doing
so," due to a careful 'respect' of the copyrights of people who
don't want their stuff to be free. While regulatory reigimes
seemingly make this impossible anyway with GSM, I don't relish the
idea of essentially giving more power to other people to wield the
law against the project or its' users. But I understand that writing
a firmware from scratch for something like the Calypso would be a
massive amount of work, and I would rather have a reusable and
inspectable firmware that breaks copyright law, than none at all,
particularly for something as directly dangerous to one's security
as a phone.

With this in mind, I do wonder why the OsmocomBB work isn't
appropriate as a base for your work? Can you explain this a bit more
why it isn't? Is it just that they are quite a long way from
producing a complete firmware for a phone?


And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone
can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching
someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find
myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people
like you.


I do think you need to be more careful, kind, and forgiving of
perceived differences, when speaking to others in the community.
We're all in a similar

Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-23 Thread Nick

Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. And I, 
(unlike I suspect some others on the list) very much like your 
framing of the issues, too. I fully support the idea that if a law 
makes private conversation illegal, it is a bad law, and regulatory 
blocks on GSM that forbid inspectable and modifiable cannot but be 
such.

However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway?  
I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some 
things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and 
ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, 
if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home 
PC in a few days, you're still screwed.

A truly free phone is a worthy and very important thing for other 
reasons, but could such a thing be strongly secure too? Or is the 
only solution there to rely on something like ZRTP in voip, and give 
up wishing that GSM could provide security?

I've always been somewhat vague about how modems and their 
processors interact with other parts of a system. Am I correct in 
thinking that once the first firmware part of your project was 
complete, one could flash load that the GTA02 modem, and have a (far 
more 'smart' and Linux-y than you're ultimately planning) free 
openmoko phone? Or would the modem firmware have to be programmed 
differently for the GTA02 compared to your feature phone? While I am 
more interested in a feature phone than a 'smart' phone, I would be 
very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the 
meantime.

It's interesting to think of the meanings of 'free' in your message.  
Because one of the nice things of free software traditionally has 
been the ability to say "it's free software, so I can do what I like 
with it, and you can't invoke state violence against me for doing 
so," due to a careful 'respect' of the copyrights of people who 
don't want their stuff to be free. While regulatory reigimes 
seemingly make this impossible anyway with GSM, I don't relish the 
idea of essentially giving more power to other people to wield the 
law against the project or its' users. But I understand that writing 
a firmware from scratch for something like the Calypso would be a 
massive amount of work, and I would rather have a reusable and 
inspectable firmware that breaks copyright law, than none at all, 
particularly for something as directly dangerous to one's security 
as a phone.

With this in mind, I do wonder why the OsmocomBB work isn't 
appropriate as a base for your work? Can you explain this a bit more 
why it isn't? Is it just that they are quite a long way from 
producing a complete firmware for a phone?

> And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone
> can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching
> someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find
> myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people
> like you.

I do think you need to be more careful, kind, and forgiving of 
perceived differences, when speaking to others in the community.  
We're all in a similar position here, working towards helping people 
communicate freely. Sure, people have different things they will 
compromise in order to try to effect this, but ultimately I find it 
hard to believe that anybody in the openmoko community isn't here in 
large part because of their wish to see people able to freely 
communicate.

It's fine and healthy to not always agree with others about what 
compromises are appropriate, and to argue to try to figure out what 
the best course of action is, but it is unjust to assume malice,
and saying what I've quoted above (regardless of how true it may feel)
is likely to just turn people off to you. We need all the solidarity 
we can muster, and we need to celebrate the work people are doing, 
and try to respect them, and their differences. Even - nay, 
especially - if there are major differences that you can't 
understand.

I look forward very much to hearing your progress with your project.  
If there's something I as an enthusiastic but comparitively ignorant 
volunteer can do to help, let me know!

Nick

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Re: Building a new totally free phone

 no different from the way it was in
WW II and just before, and I have no desire to go anywhere near it.
Unless, of course, I were to enter it in the same manner in which both
of my grandfathers did in 1944-45 (as part of the Red Army) - but then
I would need a lot more than just one of me...

> Rather I will do nothing but listening and laughing

Not gonna happen.  If I felt like exchanging my life for yours, the
bullet would pierce your skull before you can even utter a peep, let
alone laugh.

But I'm not sure if I want to do that after all.  I do have several
people who depend on me both financially and emotionally, for one
thing.  And my FTP site now does have two other TI source leaks
besides the TSM30: the LoCosto one and that strange MV100-0.1.rar.
Between these two, it *appears* that We the People have *some* source
for every module that forms a part of the firmware for the GTA0x GSM
modem or an equivalent feature phone.

But the problem is that what We the People currently have is in bits
and pieces, whereas what you are hoarding is a turnkey package that's
built for the correct hardware.  (And yes, I know that your version is
mostly binary objects - no need to repeat that - but those objects
still have to contain symbolic info to be linkable.)

The LoCosto leak is the most interesting one.  It is essentially the
same kind of package as what TI must have given to you: it consists of
a reference board design (schematics and PCB layout EDA files), a
decent set of hardware docs, a complete firmware package (a source +
object mix just like yours, except that this one is mostly source),
and docs for the firmware as well.  It would have been the Ultimate
Happiness were it not for one major flaw: it's for the wrong chipset.
This package targets LoCosto, one of Calypso's successors.  Whatever
the relative merits of the two chipsets in an abstract comparison, a
firmware package targeting LoCosto is of no direct benefit for building
new fw for existing phones based on the Calypso, and I really don't
feel like using LoCosto instead of Calypso for my own Free Dumb Phone
design either.

The good thing is that much of the code ought to be common between
Calypso and LoCosto (all of L23 and most of L1, for example), and in
many places the code still has preprocessor conditionals selecting
between LoCosto and several older chipsets (Calypso variants).  But it
is not a turnkey package for the Calypso by any means, and in quite a
few places where the code is totally different between Calypso and
LoCosto, only the latter version is present.

Now enter the strange MV100 code.  I found it when Googling for some
filenames taken from the LoCosto package, hoping to find an earlier
version of the code with more Calypso bits.  This one does contain the
BSP (drivers) and L1 for the Calypso, but it isn't a complete firmware
package - the GSM protocol stack is missing altogether, for example.

So what I'm doing now is reconstructing the firmware from pieces.  You
can see the current state of my work here:

ftp://ftp.ifctf.org/pub/GSM/FreeCalypso/snapshots/freecalypso-sw-SE52Fru5.tar.bz2

I'm building it with gcc and binutils, just like OsmocomBB (not using
TI's proprietary compiler), I've got the customized toolchain in there,
and I've got my own (non-OsmocomBB) tools for loading code into the
Calypso as well as dumping and reprogramming flash etc - my version
works with the GTA02 and the Pirelli, but not the Compal phones.  For
the main GSM firmware, I've decided to use Nucleus as my foundation.
I could have used SOS from the TSM30 source instead, but because my
goal is to recreate something as close as possible to what you
(JR+HW+PF) are wrongfully withholding from us, I'm following the
general layout of TI's fw version, rather than Purple Labs.  Hence my
choice of Nucleus rather than SOS.

I've got the complete source for Nucleus, I've ported it to build with
gcc and binutils instead of the proprietary tools, and the Nucleus
demo app built in my freecalypso-sw framework now runs on my Pirelli
DP-L10.  It'll run on the GTA02 GSM modem too, but the debug output
goes to the IrDA UART (usb2serial chip on the Pirelli, headphone jack
on the GTA02), and I have yet to build the special cable to access
this headphone serial port on my GTA02.

The next step is to add the functional pieces from various leaked
sources, piece by piece.  Take the Calypso BSP (drivers) from the MV100
code, integrate it, get it to work.  Then the L1: the part specific to
the Rita RF would have to come from the MV100 version, and for those
pieces which appear in both MV100 and LoCosto versions, perform a
painstaking comparison.  Then port and integrate the RiViera and GPF
frameworks (abstraction layers on top of Nucleus), get them to work.
Then the GSM protocol stack - that one would have to come from the
LoCosto package, as the MV100-0.1.rar booty has none.  (I would wan

Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-22 Thread joerg Reisenweber

On Fri 23 August 2013 01:58:04 Michael Spacefalcon wrote:
>[yaggediyagediblabblablub...]
> In the case of hardware it means publishing full,
> *unredacted* schematics and PCB EDA files, 

Yeah that *evil* redacting!
Oh, did you ever hear about that funny story? Somebody noticed that the GTA01 
schematics were redacted by a true idiot who didn't notice that the huge black 
blob covering parts of the schematics was easily removed by simply editing the 
pdf, or even simpler by highlighting the area.

PS, maybe that idiot been me :-o

we all love you, no really, we mean it!
/j

-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
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Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-22 Thread joerg Reisenweber

On Fri 23 August 2013 01:58:04 Michael Spacefalcon wrote:
>[blablabla]
> I have found some new and exciting TI firmware source leaks
>(archived on my mini-Wikileaks at ftp.ifctf.org) which will
>hopefully make it unnecessary for me to sacrifice my life in a
>gunfire exchange with the German or Russian police after kidnapping
>a moko-hoarder: these new leaks appear to be much closer to TI's
>"mainline" than the famous PurpleLabs TSM30 source, and I'm quite
>confident that by using these new leaks I can recreate something
>very close to what Om-Inc and its former employees/contractors have
>wrongfully withheld from Humanity

I invite you to visit me at my home trying to force me to hand to you the MOST 
SECRIT SOURCES that everybody passing the idiot test had access to since 
~2011.  And I even promise I won't call the police or any other officials. 
Rather I will do nothing but listening and laughing when I hear you screaming 
for helf, from the bottom of our manure tank you for sure inevitably will 
manage to find and drop in.

good luck!
/j
-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
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Re: Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-22 Thread joerg Reisenweber


ROTFL

-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German)


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Building a new totally free phone

2013-08-22 Thread Michael Spacefalcon

Bob Ham  wrote:

> Please allow me to address a question to the community as a whole: if
> you can produce a free phone then why aren't you?  Do it!  What are you
> *waiting* for?

Well, as you've asked the community as a whole, without restrictive
language to exclude any particular factions of the community (e.g.,
the illegal faction, which I'm heading), I'll take the liberty of
posting my answer.

I am in fact working on building a new phone - as in new physical hw.
However, the type of phone I'm seeking to build is quite different from
what Canonical tried to fund, and from what most of this community
seems to be interested in.  I personally will never be happy with a
smartphone *of any kind* as my everyday phone - instead the kind of
phone I want is the kind we all had in the 1990s - a plain or "dumb"
or feature phone.  And that is the type of phone I'm working on
building - a plain old-fashioned "candybar" phone without any smarts,
and no application processor to run Linux or any other smartphone OS -
only the traditional ARM7 baseband processor running traditional RTOS-
based GSM phone firmware.

But the plain/dumb/feature phone which I'm working on building will
have one key difference from the ones you can buy for $20 on ebay: it
will be 100% free as in freedom, in terms of both hardware and
firmware.  In the case of hardware it means publishing full,
*unredacted* schematics and PCB EDA files, and choosing only those
components for which full documentation is available.  As for the
firmware, yes, it will be an RTOS phone, no Linux or the like, no
application processor, but the full C source for that RTOS-based
firmware can still be published.  And because such a totally free
phone can never, ever, ever be produced legally, I am doing it as an
explicitly-illegal project, under the aegis of the international
community of outlaws, criminals and lawbreakers - i.e., my brothers
and sisters.

Of course a project of this magnitude won't happen overnight.  But I
handle it the same way I've handled all other projects which appear
totally insurmountable at first: I divide the problem into bite-sized
chunks, and work on the initial stages without worrying too much about
what difficulties may lie in the later stages - I'll deal with those
when the time comes.  The FreeCalypso phone project has the following
rough roadmap:

1. Build the FreeCalypso software/firmware first.  In May-June of this
   year I have found some new and exciting TI firmware source leaks
   (archived on my mini-Wikileaks at ftp.ifctf.org) which will
   hopefully make it unnecessary for me to sacrifice my life in a
   gunfire exchange with the German or Russian police after kidnapping
   a moko-hoarder: these new leaks appear to be much closer to TI's
   "mainline" than the famous PurpleLabs TSM30 source, and I'm quite
   confident that by using these new leaks I can recreate something
   very close to what Om-Inc and its former employees/contractors have
   wrongfully withheld from Humanity - but in full source form.  (The
   LoCosto leak in particular, which I'm backporting from LoCosto to
   Calypso, has the GSM stack in full source form, unlike what Om-Inc
   purportedly got, and it appears to be from the same time frame as
   Om's version - much newer than the TSM30 one.)

I am working on this sw/fw part right now, using the Pirelli DP-L10
feature phone and the GTA02 GSM modem as my two bring-up/test
platforms.  In fact, the Pirelli phone fits me almost perfectly in
terms of hardware features, and I have thought long and hard about
just settling on it as my hw platform.  But there are a few problems
with this existing platform which have ultimately swayed me to my
current plan of biting the bullet and building my own phone hw instead:

a) No schematics could be found for this phone.  (The OsmocomBB folks
   are also hacking on Compal/Motorola phones for which there are full
   schematics, but their hardware features are insufficient for me: I
   would really miss the tri-band support, the loudspeaker and the USB
   charging capability.)  Schematics can be reconstructed by PCB reverse
   engineering given enough determination, but it would be hard to
   justify the effort given the other two problems:

b) This particular phone has a bunch of extra chips beyond the
   essential Calypso chipset, and for most of these extra chips no
   docs can be found.  While they support functionality which I can
   easily live without (camera and WiFi), their presence would
   tremendously complicate any attempt to reconstruct the full
   schematics, and may throw up issues when the time comes to implement
   thorough power management: how do we ensure that these undocumented
   and unsupported chips are fully powered down?

c) The biggest show-stopper of all: the supply of these phones on the
   surplus market appears to have been exhauste

Re: Ubuntu phone

2013-02-11 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller


Am 10.02.2013 um 17:12 schrieb Matthias Apitz:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> Have you watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU
> How do they get this speed on the screen? Do they use something else
> than X11? There is also not mutch technical background information at

It could use OpenGL (can be combined with X11 - GLX extension [1]) and
then it is no magic any more (any good GPU does such a job). Unfortunately
we have no FREE OpenGL driver for our GPU.

> Ubuntu's pages http://www.ubuntu.com/
> 
>   matthias

[1] http://x11.gweb.info/x11_0632_opengl.html


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Re: Ubuntu phone

2013-02-10 Thread arne anka

the german magazine c't run an article in a recent issue about ubuntu  
phone/sailfish/tizen and identified as common denominator that all three  
cater to providers rather than end users (though those are the ones paying  
...) -- ie whatever _potential_ freedom exists with those platforms will  
most likely _realize_ to only a very small extend, since providers are not  
interested in freedom uf use but their revenue, meaning they will limit  
choices and lock the system.
and without either one of the three providing their own hardware, the have  
no means (if they're interested at all, whcih is rather unlikely) to  
prevent that.


although such lock will be probably broken in no time, it means that  
you're not better off than with an android or even ios device ...



On 02/10/2013 06:10 PM, Peter Viskup wrote:

Have you watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU

How do they get this speed on the screen? Do they use something else
than X11? There is also not mutch technical background information at
Ubuntu's pages http://www.ubuntu.com/

matthias


Hi Matthias,
it's just marketing video - doesn't mean it will respond on every HW so  
quickly. ;-) But it's great to see they will come with 'revolution'  
gesture control on the screen. In opposite Firefox OS will be just  
another 'standard' mobile OS. Hope at least one (I bet for Firefox OS)  
of them will be completely open source and will not require any account  
to be registered somewhere.

Anybody already tried Firefox OS on GTA02/04?
Just to let you know - Android could be used w/o any registration and  
without any vendor-locked components. Unfortunately it is more  
exception, then case - many chipset vendors are not opening driver  
sources, especially for modem and OpenGL hw. I am not expecting anything  
very different with Ubuntu OS - it is hardware vendor policy and there  
is no way to prevent this from from OS vendor. And yes, i didnt mention  
fact that every device do have closed source GSM stack, what making much  
more problems for privacy then, for example, closed source video driver.  
And again, Firefox OS, Android or QTMoko will not solve this issue (




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Re: Ubuntu phone

2013-02-10 Thread Alex Samorukov


On 02/10/2013 06:10 PM, Peter Viskup wrote:

Have you watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU

How do they get this speed on the screen? Do they use something else
than X11? There is also not mutch technical background information at
Ubuntu's pages http://www.ubuntu.com/

matthias


Hi Matthias,
it's just marketing video - doesn't mean it will respond on every HW 
so quickly. ;-) But it's great to see they will come with 'revolution' 
gesture control on the screen. In opposite Firefox OS will be just 
another 'standard' mobile OS. Hope at least one (I bet for Firefox OS) 
of them will be completely open source and will not require any 
account to be registered somewhere.

Anybody already tried Firefox OS on GTA02/04?
Just to let you know - Android could be used w/o any registration and 
without any vendor-locked components. Unfortunately it is more 
exception, then case - many chipset vendors are not opening driver 
sources, especially for modem and OpenGL hw. I am not expecting anything 
very different with Ubuntu OS - it is hardware vendor policy and there 
is no way to prevent this from from OS vendor. And yes, i didnt mention 
fact that every device do have closed source GSM stack, what making much 
more problems for privacy then, for example, closed source video driver. 
And again, Firefox OS, Android or QTMoko will not solve this issue (




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Re: Ubuntu phone

2013-02-10 Thread Peter Viskup


On 02/10/2013 05:12 PM, Matthias Apitz wrote:

Hi,

Have you watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU
How do they get this speed on the screen? Do they use something else
than X11? There is also not mutch technical background information at
Ubuntu's pages http://www.ubuntu.com/

matthias


Hi Matthias,
it's just marketing video - doesn't mean it will respond on every HW so 
quickly. ;-) But it's great to see they will come with 'revolution' 
gesture control on the screen. In opposite Firefox OS will be just 
another 'standard' mobile OS. Hope at least one (I bet for Firefox OS) 
of them will be completely open source and will not require any account 
to be registered somewhere.

Anybody already tried Firefox OS on GTA02/04?

--
Peter

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Ubuntu phone

2013-02-10 Thread Matthias Apitz


Hi,

Have you watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU
How do they get this speed on the screen? Do they use something else
than X11? There is also not mutch technical background information at
Ubuntu's pages http://www.ubuntu.com/

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz   |  /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: www.asciiribbon.org
E-mail: g...@unixarea.de |  \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail
WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ |   X  - No proprietary attachments
phone: +49-170-4527211   |  / \ - Respect for open standards

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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-25 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors

jcomm...@math.leidenuniv.nl writes:
> Thanks for your replies. I think I have some good pointers here. But, to
> make one thing clear. I am not looking that much for VoIP options, but
> would like to connect to an existing carrier, with a SIM-card.

My USB 3G modem solution does exactly this.

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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-25 Thread Ian Darwin


On 2013-01-25 8:17 AM, jcomm...@math.leidenuniv.nl wrote:

Thanks for your replies. I think I have some good pointers here. But, to
make one thing clear. I am not looking that much for VoIP options, but
would like to connect to an existing carrier, with a SIM-card.
The point is that I want other people (without VoIP) being able to call
this phone. And if I only have VoIP, then they can not give me a call (as
far as I know).
Am I missing something?


Well, yes. A VOIP "DID" line, which most people use when they speak of 
VOIP (ignoring Skype for the moment) costs $1-$3 a month and has a 
regular phone number attached, so yes, people with regular ("POTS") 
phones can indeed call it. The other end can be logged into by a 
hardware SIP phone, a software SIP or IAX phone, an "ATA" Analog 
Terminal Adapter with a regular phone plugged into it, an Asterisk 
instance running like a regular "phone system" inside a business or 
home, etc.


And people with Skype can now dial regular phone numbers.

Read the intro chapters of "Asterisk: The Future of Telephony" for a 
good overview (the book's a bit dated as it talks of Asterisk 1.6 and 
1.8 while they're up to 1.11, but all the stuff it covers is still 
useful and it's quite readable).


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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-25 Thread Boudewijn


On 25-1-2013 14:17, jcomm...@math.leidenuniv.nl wrote:

Thanks for your replies. I think I have some good pointers here. But, to
make one thing clear. I am not looking that much for VoIP options, but
would like to connect to an existing carrier, with a SIM-card.

It's exactly how OpenPhoenux started, I'm sure you know?
The initial setup for GTA04a1 [1] is quite similar to the goal you're 
heading for, I suppose. In case you're visiting FOSDEM next week, be 
sure to visit the OpenPhoenux stand in the AW-building!

The point is that I want other people (without VoIP) being able to call
this phone. And if I only have VoIP, then they can not give me a call (as
far as I know).
Am I missing something?
You might be missing something. After all, most (if not all) phone 
traffic is VoIP nowadays. If you like to connect your VoIP system to the 
POTS-network, you need something like a DID- or DDI-number (direct 
inbound dialing), something of a bridge between the m...@myserver.org-SIP 
and the +31n number you'd want to give to Dutch acquaintances. 
As far as I know, more than one DID-number can point to the same 
VoIP/SIP-address, so you can have your friends abroad call for local fees.


That's about as far as my knowledge and understanding reach. (Shameless) 
plug: since your email address is in the Netherlands, you might be 
interested in Limesco.org, the "open source" mobile phone operator, 
where you could run your own server instead of relying on the operators 
infrastructure.


Best regards,

Boudewijn

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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-25 Thread jcommeli

Thanks for your replies. I think I have some good pointers here. But, to
make one thing clear. I am not looking that much for VoIP options, but
would like to connect to an existing carrier, with a SIM-card.
The point is that I want other people (without VoIP) being able to call
this phone. And if I only have VoIP, then they can not give me a call (as
far as I know).
Am I missing something?

At least I will take a look at the mentioned packages. (A more thorough
look then I already did.)

Best,
Johan


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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-25 Thread Paul Wise

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Alex Samorukov wrote:

> Technically you can create a gsm phone from this set without too much
> probmlems. Pi do have USB connection and running debian, so nothing should
> stop you from attaching compatible modem. See
> http://code.google.com/p/asterisk-chan-dongle/ for more information and list
> of supported modules. But also, to make it looking like a usable device you
> will need a screen and some phone stack with UI. Or you can attach it to any
> SIP softhone/hardphone and use with Asterisk as GSM/Voip PBX.

If anyone wants to get chan_dongle/chan_sebi into Debian (and thus
Raspbian), the Debian VoIP team could always use some help and would
probably mentor folks to get this stuff packaged.

http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/VoIP

For a general intro to packaging for Debian:

http://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:PaulWise
http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
http://bonedaddy.net/pabs3/

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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-25 Thread Alex Samorukov


On 01/24/2013 02:59 PM, jcomm...@math.leidenuniv.nl wrote:

I would be very glad to receive pointers about what is needed for this,
both in terms of hardware and software. (Since I have never soldered
before, I would like to know of solutions that work via USB or something
like that.)

I have read quite a bit about Huawei modems and using them for internet
connection + SMS. But there is very little information (as far as I know)
about phone calls.

Best regards,
Technically you can create a gsm phone from this set without too much 
probmlems. Pi do have USB connection and running debian, so nothing 
should stop you from attaching compatible modem. See 
http://code.google.com/p/asterisk-chan-dongle/ for more information and 
list of supported modules. But also, to make it looking like a usable 
device you will need a screen and some phone stack with UI. Or you can 
attach it to any SIP softhone/hardphone and use with Asterisk as 
GSM/Voip PBX.




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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-24 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors

Al Johnson  writes:
> Assuming it's one with voice capability and software support, yes. Some 
> research will be needed to see if there's a combination of bits known to work 
> with the Pi.

Huawei E169 and asterisk worked for me last time I tried.

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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-24 Thread Al Johnson

On Thursday 24 January 2013 16:18:38 Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> jcomm...@math.leidenuniv.nl writes:
> > capabilities. And with that, I do not mean only SMS, but also phone calls
> > (calling and receiving).
> 
> Just plug in a USB 3G modem?

Assuming it's one with voice capability and software support, yes. Some 
research will be needed to see if there's a combination of bits known to work 
with the Pi.

Ofono is packaged in Raspbian and claims support for a selection of 3G 
dongles. Probably the easiest route. I think there's a GUI via a telepathy 
module and empathy.

FSO is also packaged, but I don't know what dongle support it has, if any.

Asterisk should work with chan_sebi or chan_dongle, but they don't appear to 
be packaged. Elastix may be easier than Raspbian for this.

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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-24 Thread David Matthews



you can install freewitch on a raspberrypi use the stable release as
although the latest version builds, it does not run (at least not for me)

http://wiki.freeswitch.org/wiki/Installation_Guide

you then have an opening into the world of voip - there are many things taht
could be done eg

http://robsmart.co.uk/2009/06/02/freeswitch_linksys3102/

apart from the obvious - using a softphone or buying a hardware voip handset.

Freeswitch takes several hours to build on the pi, there are asterisk
packages in raspbian so that would be an alternative. Don't bother with
sipwitch though, which is, to be charitable, a work in progress (it chewed 98%
of cpu while doing nothing for me) and is poorly documented.


--
David Matthews
m...@dmatthews.org

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Re: Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-24 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors

jcomm...@math.leidenuniv.nl writes:
> capabilities. And with that, I do not mean only SMS, but also phone calls
> (calling and receiving).

Just plug in a USB 3G modem?



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Enhancing an RPi with phone capabilities

2013-01-24 Thread jcommeli

Dear list,

I have been following the discussions on this list with great interest.
Finally I have a project that I would like to work on, but I do not have
all the expertise.
You probably all know about the Raspberry Pi [1] (creditcard size computer
for $35). I was wondering if it would be easy to give it phone
capabilities. And with that, I do not mean only SMS, but also phone calls
(calling and receiving).
I would be very glad to receive pointers about what is needed for this,
both in terms of hardware and software. (Since I have never soldered
before, I would like to know of solutions that work via USB or something
like that.)

I have read quite a bit about Huawei modems and using them for internet
connection + SMS. But there is very little information (as far as I know)
about phone calls.

Best regards,
-- 
Johan Commelin


[1]: http://www.raspberrypi.org/


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29C3 presentation on making a calypso phone act as a GSM base station

2013-01-02 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors

Hi,

in case somebody missed it I highly recommend watching

http://ftp.ccc.de/congress/29C3/mp4-h264-HQ/29c3-5226-en-further_hacks_calypso_h264.mp4

that shows how a cheap motorola phone with Calypso can be made to appear
as a GSM base station without any hardware modifications. Very
interesting proof of concept :)

-Timo

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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

2012-09-23 Thread Alex Samorukov


On 09/22/2012 10:26 AM, Adam Ward wrote:

According to
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30428306/54/AT-CTZU-Automatic-Time-Zone-Update
I should be able to chat to the modem to get some information.

But the following command does not return anything:
root@neo:~# chat -vse '' 'AT+CTZU=?' '' '' > /dev/ttySAC0 < /dev/ttySAC0
send (AT+CTZU=?^M)
send (^M)


This is a gsm fw bug. I was not able to get time from operator, vodafone 
CZ supports this, but not calypso.


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Re: QtMoko / GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 09:55:43 PM Neil Jerram wrote:
[snip]

> 
> FWIW, from a quick look at
> devices/neo/src/plugins/phonevendors/neo/vendor_neo.cpp, I see that the
> suspend code includes
> 
> // Turn off timezone notifications.
> chat("AT+CTZR=0");
> chat("AT%CTZU=0");
> 
> and the resume ("wake") code includes
> 
>  // Turn on timezone notifications again.
> chat( "AT+CTZR=1" );
> chat( "AT%CTZU=1" );
> 
> and that the code for a CTZU response appears to handle both date/time
> and timezone:
> 
> void NeoModemService::ctzu( const QString& msg )
> {
> // Timezone information from the network.  Format is
> "yy/mm/dd,hh:mm:ss+/-tz".
> 
> So maybe I was wrong about time and timezone being separate.

I was looking at this code earlier while I was seeking a way to trace what is 
happening.  That is when I was trying to figure out the chat command.

See my reply to Timo [1] for some searchings on the specification.

> 
> Also note that
> 
> (1) there could still be missing bits of support higher up, for actually
> doing anything useful with this information
> 
> (2) I wonder if it's also necessary to do the "Turn on" actions when the
> phone first boots up?

This is what I want to trace, but I cannot see how to do it :)
I am not clear on whether this is a QtMoko bug or a GTA02 bug, or a 
combination of the two, so I have changed the subject to reflect this.

Do other distributions on the GTA02 have this bug ?

[1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-September/067506.html 


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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 03:56:57 PM Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> Adam Ward  writes:
> > I know that Telstra in Australia sends both.
> 
> Do you know how it sends that? I have been unable to find any kind of
> specification that describes this. I only find references to timezone
> information.
> 

When my "normal" phone looses the date/time settings, I get prompted for them 
with a date/time dialogue.
After a few seconds this dialogue will disappear and the correct date and time 
gets populated.
I am trying to replicate this now, but the phone will not loose the date/time.
I know it happened when I changed networks earlier this month.  I went from 
Telstra to Optus, and it has happened for me on both networks.
I figure they both implement NITZ in full.

Specification wise, the wikipedia page [1] indicates it is not only timezone 
setting information.
I also get a hit on www.etsi.org when searching for "nitz specification" that 
references Universal Time [2].  One of the wiki sources indicates the 
implementation is optional.

However searching on "nitz universal time specification" gets some 
clarification 
on the issue: not only is it optional, different manufactures have different 
interpretations [3].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NITZ 
[2] 
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/122000_122099/122042/08.00.00_60/ts_122042v08p.pdf

[3] http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/tsg_sa/tsg_sa/TSGS_06/Docs/PDF/sp-99637.pdf 

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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

2012-09-22 Thread Neil Jerram

Adam Ward  writes:

>> 
>> Time and time zone are two different things.  In my (patchy and
>> non-scientific) experience, mobile networks often do tell you the time
>> zone, but not the time.
>> 
>
> I know that Telstra in Australia sends both.  My current phone would get the 
> correct details after traveling between timezones when I was on that network.
> I will find out in a few weeks if Optus does the same.

FWIW, from a quick look at
devices/neo/src/plugins/phonevendors/neo/vendor_neo.cpp, I see that the
suspend code includes

// Turn off timezone notifications.
chat("AT+CTZR=0");
chat("AT%CTZU=0");

and the resume ("wake") code includes

 // Turn on timezone notifications again.
chat( "AT+CTZR=1" );
chat( "AT%CTZU=1" );

and that the code for a CTZU response appears to handle both date/time
and timezone:

void NeoModemService::ctzu( const QString& msg )
{
// Timezone information from the network.  Format is 
"yy/mm/dd,hh:mm:ss+/-tz".

So maybe I was wrong about time and timezone being separate.

Also note that

(1) there could still be missing bits of support higher up, for actually
doing anything useful with this information

(2) I wonder if it's also necessary to do the "Turn on" actions when the
phone first boots up?

Regards,
Neil

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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

2012-09-22 Thread Timo Juhani Lindfors

Adam Ward  writes:
> I know that Telstra in Australia sends both.

Do you know how it sends that? I have been unable to find any kind of
specification that describes this. I only find references to timezone
information.



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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?


> 
> Time and time zone are two different things.  In my (patchy and
> non-scientific) experience, mobile networks often do tell you the time
> zone, but not the time.
> 

I know that Telstra in Australia sends both.  My current phone would get the 
correct details after traveling between timezones when I was on that network.
I will find out in a few weeks if Optus does the same.

>
> Do you know that NeronGPS can sync both time and time zone for you? -
> obviously, subject to having a GPS fix.
> 

I want to play with the GPS stuff at a later date, but it is a powerdraw as 
well.  In the first instance I would like the datetime to come from the phone 
network when the network supports it.


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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

> 
> Adam,
> 
> I do not know the details of the distribution you are using, but I could
> imagine that the part of the software which controls the modem is
> 'eating up' the responses of the AT cmds you are sending down with
> chat(1). Concerning the time update, I'm using ntpdate(1)
> to get the correct time from Internet.
> 
>   matthias

I had considered that, and I am not sure of how to get around it.
I know about ntpdate, but that assumes an internet connection is available.


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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

2012-09-22 Thread Neil Jerram

Adam Ward  writes:

> I have a GTA02 which I acquired a few years back and until now I have not 
> really done anything with it.  Now I want to use it as my main phone.
>
> The automatic setting of the date/time from the providors network (in this 
> case it is Optus) does not work in qtmoko.  The provider does support this as 
> I have a another phone that gets this information.
>
> I see there is an old bug from the Nokia days:
> http://docs.huihoo.com/qt/qtextended/4.4/release-4-4-3.html 
> BUG 231983
>
> According to 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/30428306/54/AT-CTZU-Automatic-Time-Zone-Update 
> I should be able to chat to the modem to get some information.

Time and time zone are two different things.  In my (patchy and
non-scientific) experience, mobile networks often do tell you the time
zone, but not the time.

Do you know that NeronGPS can sync both time and time zone for you? -
obviously, subject to having a GPS fix.

> But the following command does not return anything:
> root@neo:~# chat -vse '' 'AT+CTZU=?' '' '' > /dev/ttySAC0 < /dev/ttySAC0
> send (AT+CTZU=?^M)
> send (^M)
>
> syslog shows:
> Jan  1 08:13:45 neo chat[1109]: send (AT+CTZU=?^M)
> Jan  1 08:13:46 neo chat[1109]: send (^M)
>
> Is there a way to automatically log the AT chat commands ?
> Do I have the correct /dev/tty ?
>
> More generally, is this a problem with the calypso firmware, or qt extended / 
> qtmoko or something else ?

I'm afraid I don't know about those points.

   Neil

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Re: GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?

2012-09-22 Thread Matthias Apitz

El día Saturday, September 22, 2012 a las 04:26:01PM +0800, Adam Ward escribió:

> I have a GTA02 which I acquired a few years back and until now I have not 
> really done anything with it.  Now I want to use it as my main phone.
> 
> The automatic setting of the date/time from the providors network (in this 
> case it is Optus) does not work in qtmoko.  The provider does support this as 
> I have a another phone that gets this information.
> 
> I see there is an old bug from the Nokia days:
> http://docs.huihoo.com/qt/qtextended/4.4/release-4-4-3.html 
> BUG 231983
> 
> According to 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/30428306/54/AT-CTZU-Automatic-Time-Zone-Update 
> I should be able to chat to the modem to get some information.
> 
> But the following command does not return anything:
> root@neo:~# chat -vse '' 'AT+CTZU=?' '' '' > /dev/ttySAC0 < /dev/ttySAC0
> send (AT+CTZU=?^M)
> send (^M)
> 
> syslog shows:
> Jan  1 08:13:45 neo chat[1109]: send (AT+CTZU=?^M)
> Jan  1 08:13:46 neo chat[1109]: send (^M)
> 
> Is there a way to automatically log the AT chat commands ?
> Do I have the correct /dev/tty ?
> 
> More generally, is this a problem with the calypso firmware, or qt extended / 
> qtmoko or something else ?

Adam,

I do not know the details of the distribution you are using, but I could
imagine that the part of the software which controls the modem is
'eating up' the responses of the AT cmds you are sending down with
chat(1). Concerning the time update, I'm using ntpdate(1)
to get the correct time from Internet.

matthias
-- 
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GTA02 Setting time from phone network using NITZ ?