Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
While I agree with you on most things I've seen you write, here I think you're semi-deluded. Some very young politicians might go in with altruistic thoughts and ideals, I believe many stay for the benefits and the power and prestige. Somethings hard to give up once you've got them. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:50 PM, tjpa wrote: On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:54 PM, John Settle wrote: They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, none of us cares about the institution, he said, adding: They really don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars gets lost, fine. That is evil. I think this exec is projecting their own evil intent onto others. Very few people go into politics in order to get rich and even fewer of those succeed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
But, oh, so easy to lose in the snap of a finger ...viz ...spitzer/Paterson in ny and so many who we remember well back to tricky dick!! -Original Message- From: Jeff Miles [mailto:jmile...@charter.net] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:57 AM Subject: Re: Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] While I agree with you on most things I've seen you write, here I think you're semi-deluded. Some very young politicians might go in with altruistic thoughts and ideals, I believe many stay for the benefits and the power and prestige. Somethings hard to give up once you've got them. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
The average net worth of Senators is about 9 million, not exactly average joes. On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:27 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Yeah you really have to wonder why someone would blow 5 million $ running for an office that only pays just over $150.000 a year. And in the case of congress they do it every two years. Usually OPM -- Other People's Money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
You mean the millionaires club? Senators have never been average and it is similar to the house of Lords in England. Titled individuals. Stewart At 08:15 AM 3/5/2010, you wrote: The average net worth of Senators is about 9 million, not exactly average joes. On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:27 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Yeah you really have to wonder why someone would blow 5 million $ running for an office that only pays just over $150.000 a year. And in the case of congress they do it every two years. Usually OPM -- Other People's Money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:15 AM, mike wrote: The average net worth of Senators is about 9 million, not exactly average joes. But the more significant median is about $890,000 (for Senators and Reps in 2008). Anyone who owns a house in the metro DC area is probably worth more than that. So at least half of them probably can claim to be average Joes. To prove your point you would also have to net out those who were already rich when they first got elected. Many of them were. http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/overview.php?type=Wyear=2008 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
My son is going through the same disappointment with his new car want. A Chevy Camaro, fully loaded is something he can afford, but the insurance will kill him. I asked if the seats lay all the way back so he could sleep in his car. Insurance pricing is a joke. And the tort reform argument I think is also garbage. Kind of like the shop owner asking the thugs why he has to pay $100 more a month for protection. The thugs answer being, bullets and gasoline and bribes don't come cheap these days. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 1, 2010, at 6:19 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: My youngest talks of the cars he would like to own, and given the right circumstances could pay for. (He is in college, but also the national guard bringing in a regular income.) Every car he would like to own, would be affordable except for insurance. He could pay for the car, but the insurance would bankrupt him. (Or in this case me.) So it always lurks there in the background. Over the past few years we have dropped the number of full time clergy. Largest reason cited why a church no longer has a full time pastor? Cant afford the insurance benefits. Stewart At 08:07 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: A friend of mine who was an OB in Pennsylvania said the insurance was so bad he moved to another state. Imagine the costs of starting or buying a new practice and you can think of what the insurance must cost to make it worth doing. Those costs get passed on. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Fred, I'll be needing $10 from you, and all your friends, and their friends friends. But don't worry, I promise to think like you and we'll get that nasty bill crushed. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Fred Holmes wrote: At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote: After all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses and misfortunes, so why do many health health insurance executives have multi-million dollar salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have billion dollar profits? Let's do [some of] the math on this one. The other day the CEO of one of the health insurers said before Congress that she received $10M in compensation, something like $1M in salary and $9M in stock options. More or less. Well if it's a major medical insurer, surely it has 10 million policyholders in a country of 300 million citizens. So it cost about $1 per policyholder to pay the CEO compensation package? Even if it were $10, that's not much. And if the CEO makes the organization of that size work well, I would think that she's worth it. Huge enterprises are very difficult to make work well. So the government wants to trade in ten(? or more) insurance companies for one huge organization that covers everybody, and pay the CEO of that how much? Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
After being absent for a few days I really should read ahead before replying to old posts. Below pretty much covers my thoughts. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:18 AM, b_s-wilk wrote: Fred Holmes escribió: And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of healthcare? As a percentage of overall costs? The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that medical practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't police them either until too many patients are harmed. In too many cases, incompetent doctors who maim or kill patients, and bad hospitals, are still in business when they should be shut down and have medical licenses taken away. That could reduce insurance costs for everybody. However, when Republicans talk about tort reform, they want to limit the ability of patients who have been injured due to medical incompetence to have their cases ineligible for hearings or trials. This injures more patients without solving the problem, while also hurting the lawyers who file legitimate cases, in effect, further denying coverage in multiple ways. Tort reform in the US is a euphemism for keeping Democratic lawyers from helping injured patients, solely because they're not Republican. The liability and damage claims as a percentage of overall costs is less than 5%. The biggest health insurance cost to consumers from private for-profit companies is overhead--which is about 2-3% for Medicare, around 10% for private non-profits, and 20-30% for the for-profit companies. The for-profit companies made bad investments and raised premiums to make up for that, too. So tort reform makes minimal difference when compared to having nonprofit health insurance. After all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses and misfortunes, so why do many health health insurance executives have multi-million dollar salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have billion dollar profits? That's what causes high premiums, not a trumped up need for tort reform. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: My son is going through the same disappointment with his new car want. A Chevy Camaro, fully loaded is something he can afford, but the insurance will kill him. Damn right. My auto insurance just went up by $146 for a six month period because the other designated driver on that policy got a parking ticket. She got the ticket for parking along the side of a road where there were signs saying No Parking. That much is not in dispute and she takes responsibility for that offense. However, because the ticket was written by the county sheriff as Failure to Obey a Highway Sign, said offense is considered a moving violation because the state of Virginia allows auto insurance companies to classify any and all tickets written thusly to be classified as moving violations be they actually that or not. The state provides for auto insurance companies to lump all sorts of tickets into One Size Fits All categories, turning many tickets that are issued for violations wherein the ticketed vehicle is actually static and unmoving into moving violations which serve as a basis for being allowed to ramp up premium costs. Non-moving violations do not cause increases in premiums. Can you see the BS game being played here? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 4, 2010, at 2:38 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: So on the face of it, how friggen greedy do they have to get before someone starts calling foul? Especially when it's your and my money? When the government gets money to pay for the common defense and promote the general welfare they cry foul. When greedy corporations get money for outlandish bonuses and wild parties that's perfectly fine. Haven't you been paying attention? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On 3/4/2010 11:27 AM, tjpa wrote: When the government gets money to pay for the common defense and promote the general welfare they cry foul. When greedy corporations get money for outlandish bonuses and wild parties that's perfectly fine. To take a quote from an AIG exec out of context when the possibility of not getting his bonus was brought up: They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, none of us cares about the institution, he said, adding: They really don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars gets lost, fine. RTFA @ *http://tinyurl.com/yhvwsmq* * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:54 PM, John Settle wrote: They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, none of us cares about the institution, he said, adding: They really don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars gets lost, fine. That is evil. I think this exec is projecting their own evil intent onto others. Very few people go into politics in order to get rich and even fewer of those succeed. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
As a municipal official (elected to town council of a very small town), that garbage makes my blood boil. The town pays me well under $1,000 per year. I file for election with the state election board and stand every four years. I am honored to serve with others who may disagree at times, but are watching out for the town's best interests at all times. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- To take a quote from an AIG exec out of context when the possibility of not getting his bonus was brought up: They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, none of us cares about the institution, he said, adding: They really don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars gets lost, fine. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
When I lived in Canada, all local elections were party free. In other words you ran against you competitor not a party. Some states and municipalities do this also. This I think makes true what you are saying. I find most (I limit that) elected officials to be interested in their fellow man and their municipality. Occasionally you run into some real wing nuts (Try local politics in southern Alabama) and they are just idiots with an agenda. But for the most part they are concerned citizens like you. But once you get into state and national politics they start moving the other way. Stewart At 04:09 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: As a municipal official (elected to town council of a very small town), that garbage makes my blood boil. The town pays me well under $1,000 per year. I file for election with the state election board and stand every four years. I am honored to serve with others who may disagree at times, but are watching out for the town's best interests at all times. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- To take a quote from an AIG exec out of context when the possibility of not getting his bonus was brought up: They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, none of us cares about the institution, he said, adding: They really don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars gets lost, fine. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: But once you get into state and national politics they start moving the other way. Yeah, well that is where they start getting onto the REAL money, the kind of money that makes the risks truly worthwhile. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Actually this is pretty easy. Just accuse them of some impropriety with a student. Of course if someone gets caught lying about something like this I hope they not only get prison time but also sued for most of what they're worth. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 2, 2010, at 7:40 AM, mike wrote: Much harder to get rid of this guy under government health care than free market health care...just look at how hard it is to fire teachers. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote: The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive. A 'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI. When I went for follow-up, he could not find the x-rays. He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he thought surgery was necessary. He acted indignant and I got disgusted and told him I would not be coming back. I could not shake the impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not explain to me. I got well and never did the surgery. I will never go back to that jerk. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Yeah you really have to wonder why someone would blow 5 million $ running for an office that only pays just over $150.000 a year. And in the case of congress they do it every two years. Usually OPM -- Other People's Money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Steve at Verizon stevet...@verizon.netwrote: I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two distinct components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the very conservative Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian Beck, and the running-for-president Huckabee. Some of their bias shows up in the choice of stories. They ran away from the President's meeting with Republicans earlier in the year presumably because the Republicans were not coming off well. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:20 PM, Steve at Verizon stevet...@verizon.net wrote: Could you please be specific in what is wrong with the analysis in this article. I do not know if the figures and comparisons in the article are accurate or not. That is because, if for no other reason, the term efficient, which seems to be the one and only focus, is not adequately defined. Sort of like depending upon what the meaning of is is. Secondly, only figures acquired from an adamantly right-wing think tank are used along with figures generated by an organization that had been hired by a private insurance giant, Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I am as leery of stuff like that as I am about press releases straight from the White House, regardless of who is the President. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two distinct components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the very conservative Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian Beck, and the running-for-president Huckabee. Their selection of the news they present and the light in which they present it are also slanted to the right. This kind of distortion is most insidious because it slowly brainwashes the viewer. Viewers don't even realize that they have been ever so cunningly transported to another planet. Try watching WNVT's (DC Metro) feed of RT (Russian Television) for a while. You'll see how picking the stories and the angles skews the information. It will transport you to another planet. I like using Google News' editing by algorithm. It gives me a variety of news sources and it is interesting to read the same story from different perspectives. Doing that I have learned that it is seldom worthwhile to read Fox News and more recently the Wall Street Journal (now also owned by Rupert Murdoch) is not a healthy place to get news. For example, I was in Europe while the country was being brainwashed by the media so Bush could attack Iraq. I was amazed at the country's mindset. Today, at a terrible cost, most Americans know what I knew then. These days one has to make an active effort to avoid media brainwashing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Sorry, a bit late on this. Had a bit of life going on there. Anyway, as I'm sure you'll know, figures are all over the map on this depending on who you listen to. But them best averages I've heard are about 1%. So how does that justify the percentages of price increases over the last few years? I find it amusing that insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies needed no bailout. Didn't even hear a peep from them till healthcare reform was brought up again and to the forefront. I'm guessing they don't really need it. We're bailing them out on a daily basis. Wasn't it the insurance companies that just wanted a decrease in the percentage of a dollar they had to pay out to their clients? And wasn't this decrease, or increase, depending on how you look at it, even greater then what Vegas casinos are allowed? So on the face of it, how friggen greedy do they have to get before someone starts calling foul? Especially when it's your and my money? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 1, 2010, at 5:32 AM, Fred Holmes wrote: At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote: And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of healthcare? As a percentage of overall costs? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive. A 'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI. When I went for follow-up, he could not find the x-rays. He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he thought surgery was necessary. He acted indignant and I got disgusted and told him I would not be coming back. I could not shake the impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not explain to me. I got well and never did the surgery. I will never go back to that jerk. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 1, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: Read the article. Bonnie has already died. Unfortunately it is in the ultra kooky National Review. It is hard to accept the case they make for anything. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Much harder to get rid of this guy under government health care than free market health care...just look at how hard it is to fire teachers. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote: The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive. A 'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI. When I went for follow-up, he could not find the x-rays. He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he thought surgery was necessary. He acted indignant and I got disgusted and told him I would not be coming back. I could not shake the impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not explain to me. I got well and never did the surgery. I will never go back to that jerk. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Then cowboy up and buy the Globe and Mail article. It's even more horrifying., - Original Message - From: tjpa t...@tjpa.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] On Mar 1, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: Read the article. Bonnie has already died. Unfortunately it is in the ultra kooky National Review. It is hard to accept the case they make for anything. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Mike, what are you talking about Government health care for? This was a referral from my primary doctor (get this checked by a specialist) under a for-profit health plan. The doctor wanted to perform surgery when it was unnecessary so he could line his pocket. Sheesh, peel-back the tin foil occasionally. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Much harder to get rid of this guy under government health care than free market health care...just look at how hard it is to fire teachers. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote: The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive. A 'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI. When I went for follow-up, he could not find the x-rays. He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he thought surgery was necessary. He acted indignant and I got disgusted and told him I would not be coming back. I could not shake the impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not explain to me. I got well and never did the surgery. I will never go back to that jerk. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
And I said if this guy was a government worker it would be much harder to get rid of him. Thankfully we aren't and you can tell him to bugger off. On Mar 2, 2010 11:40 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote: Mike, what are you talking about Government health care for? This was a referral from my primary doctor (get this checked by a specialist) under a for-profit health plan. The doctor wanted to perform surgery when it was unnecessary so he could line his pocket. Sheesh, peel-back the tin foil occasionally. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Much harder to get rid of this guy under govern... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a m... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
If he were a government worker? Most of the systems do not employee doctors. They still work the exact same way doctors here work. Fee for service. The problem comes in when a doctor tries to pad his fees by trying to opt for hi profit, hi income procedures without review. I am not talking about emergency surgery stuff, but in this case it did not seem necessary since the client is still alive and doing well. You missed the point, I am sorry. Stewart At 01:00 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: And I said if this guy was a government worker it would be much harder to get rid of him. Thankfully we aren't and you can tell him to bugger off. On Mar 2, 2010 11:40 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote: Mike, what are you talking about Government health care for? This was a referral from my primary doctor (get this checked by a specialist) under a for-profit health plan. The doctor wanted to perform surgery when it was unnecessary so he could line his pocket. Sheesh, peel-back the tin foil occasionally. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Much harder to get rid of this guy under govern... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a m... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g. the real estate occupied by the program administrators, etc. If it really is only 3%, no wonder government health care is so bad. What is there about government administration that is so marvelous that the private sector can't do? Fred Holmes At 07:13 PM 3/1/2010, tjpa wrote: Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of around 30%. That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big chunk of change. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 07:18 PM 3/1/2010, tjpa wrote: If bad doctors and hospitals were closed down, insurance rates would go down (provided that the insurance companies did not simply pocket the money). And the _government_ is going to do a better job of closing down bad doctors and hospitals? They could do that now, without changing healht insurance at all. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Part of it is lower overhead. It is why some charities devote over 90% to the clients instead of 60-70 % I know this is going to sound biased but Lutheran World Relief, and Bethesda (both Lutheran Charities) have very low overheads. Why? Lower staff costs. The directors of our charities have salaries that are in the low 100's. No million $ salaries for our guys. So with their salaries being lower the staff salaries will be lower on comparison. Plus streamlined processing of everything. A governmental insurance agency is not about pleasing its investors, it is not about looking good. (Costs of buildings is one huge difference.) In church terms it is called stewardship of monies. They have to be better stewards as the price for not being so, is much higher. Stewart At 03:36 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g. the real estate occupied by the program administrators, etc. If it really is only 3%, no wonder government health care is so bad. What is there about government administration that is so marvelous that the private sector can't do? Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Part of it is lower overhead. It is why some charities devote over 90% to the clients instead of 60-70 % I know this is going to sound biased but Lutheran World Relief, and Bethesda (both Lutheran Charities) have very low overheads. Why? Lower staff costs. The directors of our charities have salaries that are in the low 100's. No million $ salaries for our guys. So with their salaries being lower the staff salaries will be lower on comparison. Plus streamlined processing of everything. A governmental insurance agency is not about pleasing its investors, it is not about looking good. (Costs of buildings is one huge difference.) In church terms it is called stewardship of monies. They have to be better stewards as the price for not being so, is much higher. Thank you. Exactly on target. I see the same thing myself as I visit clients. When top management is there only for the money they bleed the organization of resources to transfer as much money as possible to themselves. Their employees are using computers that are much too old and working around broken systems. They are running software that is several versions back. Employees can barely get their jobs done. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: And the _government_ is going to do a better job of closing down bad doctors and hospitals? And why would they not? Do you say mockingly And the _police_ are going to arrest bank robbers and murderers? You bet they do. The government can function quite well thank you. That does not mean that it does not get subverted. Yes that happens too. Especially when wing nuts who despise government are in charge. (Look at the functioning of the EEOC under Bush for one example among many.) When allowed to do its job the government is full of dedicated people who are deeply committed to their jobs. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g. the real estate occupied by the program administrators, etc. If it really is only 3%, no wonder government health care is so bad. Why do you expect people who are solely motivated by greed to do a better job at caring for the sick than those who are motivated by altruism? That is completely illogical. What you are promoting is death panels whose members get bonuses tied to the number of people they condemn. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Do not think our folks run the latest and the greatest either. Non profits are usually the last to upgrade their equipment as they do not get to depreciate their stuff, but have to justify all their expenses. So far I have covered most of my own computer expenses in my church even to the point of supplying network equipment. Church office got a new CPU a few years ago only because I pushed it. Right now I need to approach them about a flat screen for my office as I am having sight problems (Simply old eyes and I need a larger view.) I am hoping they will spring 150 or for a new one. (not sure they tend to be very tight) But even governmental units tend to be tight on equipment purchases. Stewart At 05:13 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: Thank you. Exactly on target. I see the same thing myself as I visit clients. When top management is there only for the money they bleed the organization of resources to transfer as much money as possible to themselves. Their employees are using computers that are much too old and working around broken systems. They are running software that is several versions back. Employees can barely get their jobs done. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a false argument since there are none. On Mar 2, 2010 4:31 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 2, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: I suspect that the government overhead is not pro... Why do you expect people who are solely motivated by greed to do a better job at caring for the sick than those who are motivated by altruism? That is completely illogical. What you are promoting is death panels whose members get bonuses tied to the number of people they condemn. * ** List info, subscrip... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At least in Medicare, there are quite a few costs which go into the overhead of private insurance which are not counted in Medicare. See: http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/08/26/medicare-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/ Analysis in this article demonstrates that the overhead is actually lower with private insurance than with Medicare on a per patient basis. And as for the streamlined processing of Medicare, this is not done by a government agency but contracted out by CMS to private processors, in my case here in the DC area, it's Highmark Medicare Services Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Part of it is lower overhead. It is why some charities devote over 90% to the clients instead of 60-70 % I know this is going to sound biased but Lutheran World Relief, and Bethesda (both Lutheran Charities) have very low overheads. Why? Lower staff costs. The directors of our charities have salaries that are in the low 100's. No million $ salaries for our guys. So with their salaries being lower the staff salaries will be lower on comparison. Plus streamlined processing of everything. A governmental insurance agency is not about pleasing its investors, it is not about looking good. (Costs of buildings is one huge difference.) In church terms it is called stewardship of monies. They have to be better stewards as the price for not being so, is much higher. Stewart At 03:36 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g. the real estate occupied by the program administrators, etc. If it really is only 3%, no wonder government health care is so bad. What is there about government administration that is so marvelous that the private sector can't do? Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2718 - Release Date: 03/02/10 02:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
You are right there are no true altruists (sounds contradictory) However there those who can run a business or agency who are not heavily influenced by one side or the other. Most medical clinics are run by whom? Doctors mostly. A good insurance company will be run by someone who is paid a flat rate and is not influenced by performance bonuses etc. One of the loses in modern society is people who work and have a sense of vocation or calling. They do this as they feel this is what they are supposed to do, not earn an incredible amount of money and go elsewhere. (trying to leave the God talk out of it.) Stewart At 05:48 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a false argument since there are none. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:48 PM, mike wrote: What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a false argument since there are none. You live in a sad, sad world. Most of the rest of us don't. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Try and shut down a hospital. The feds have no controls over hospitals except for VA and military. It is all state. And the best they can do is to pull Medicaid funding from a hospital. (Feds can pull Medicare funds, but only if they really screw up.) Down here most hospitals are not community owned but private enterprises so they are owned by a corp! Now an accrediting agency can pull accreditation on a hospital, but again, that is usually a very bold move for really screwing up. But the answer is no federal agency can close a public/private hospital down. (Except for the notation I made above) Stewart At 03:39 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: And the _government_ is going to do a better job of closing down bad doctors and hospitals? They could do that now, without changing healht insurance at all. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/08/26/medicare-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/ If your view of the world comes from Fox News you are not living on this planet. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Could you please be specific in what is wrong with the analysis in this article. And, yes, my view of the world comes from Fox News, along with CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, the New York Times, the Washington Post among others. I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the arguments on both sides of important issues. This article seems to make sense to me; please convince me where I go wrong, and I'll change my opinion. tjpa wrote: On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/08/26/medicare-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/ If your view of the world comes from Fox News you are not living on this planet. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2719 - Release Date: 03/02/10 14:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
OK. What altruist is going to come in and run health care? On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:19 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:48 PM, mike wrote: What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a false argument since there are none. You live in a sad, sad world. Most of the rest of us don't. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Apparently you haven't met Mr. Piwowar, ideologue extraordinaire and sometime poker to keep the list hot. I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the arguments on both sides of important issues. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:34 PM, mike wrote: I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the arguments on both sides of important issues. Fox reports the news of a different planet. I don't live there. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: Could you please be specific in what is wrong with the analysis in this article. Read the comments. One in particular explains it quite clearly. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two distinct components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the very conservative Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian Beck, and the running-for-president Huckabee. I don't live on their planet. News, for me, consists of Fox News Sunday hosted by Chris Wallace (a Democrat), who bars no holds whether interviewing the right or the left, and Special Report with Bret Baier with straight news and a panel discussion with analysts from the right (Krouthammer), left (Juan Williams) and middle (Mara Liaason). I think both shows do a good job of covering all sides of major issues. But then, YMMV. (And, yes, much of their daytime shows are tabloid hoohah with car chases and Amber alerts, but I don't consider this news) And, before you say it, I've heard those on the left say they hate Fox because they believe the American people are too stupid to understand the difference between commentary and news. tjpa wrote: On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:34 PM, mike wrote: I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the arguments on both sides of important issues. Fox reports the news of a different planet. I don't live there. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2719 - Release Date: 03/02/10 14:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Shepard Smith is also know for going off on Republicans, not Democrats during his show. He just did it again the other day. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Steve at Verizon stevet...@verizon.netwrote: I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two distinct components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the very conservative Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian Beck, and the running-for-president Huckabee. I don't live on their planet. News, for me, consists of Fox News Sunday hosted by Chris Wallace (a Democrat), who bars no holds whether interviewing the right or the left, and Special Report with Bret Baier with straight news and a panel discussion with analysts from the right (Krouthammer), left (Juan Williams) and middle (Mara Liaason). I think both shows do a good job of covering all sides of major issues. But then, YMMV. (And, yes, much of their daytime shows are tabloid hoohah with car chases and Amber alerts, but I don't consider this news) And, before you say it, I've heard those on the left say they hate Fox because they believe the American people are too stupid to understand the difference between commentary and news. tjpa wrote: On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:34 PM, mike wrote: I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the arguments on both sides of important issues. Fox reports the news of a different planet. I don't live there. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2719 - Release Date: 03/02/10 14:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
Most people do not know how much health care really costs. They pay a reduced rate subsidized by the company. I see the exact amount my employer pays for the insurance and I try and keep the costs down. I even took my son off of my plan because I could buy his insurance cheaper through the government for him. But it also costs my employer more to provide me insurance than it costs my sons (US ARMY) to provide the same insurance. Last year I looked up what my insurance paid out in benefits, and it was less than what I paid out in co-pays, and deductibles. It also was a far cry from what my employer paid out in premiums. So who won? Our health plan is really self insured with an outside company doing the processing (which most plans are by the way.) Who wins? Stewart At 12:45 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: How about the health care bill? Unions got a sweetheart deal to be free from the higher taxes of the more expensive health plans thus screwing would be smaller businesses wanting to give their employees good plans. In general, do you really think all the lobbying by multinational/multibillion dollar corporations helps them or helps small business? Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Sprouts I think = Whole Foods CEO. In most countries that have universal health care or universal coverage (there are huge differences on what that means by the way) There is tort reform. We are one of the few countries where our law system resembles the wild west in health care. It is one of the privileges we get or our current type of health system. Stewart At 01:14 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Haven't heard that argument or of Sprouts? But paying for our own health care? What a concept! But in reality, due to the insurance industry, that's become an impossibility with the exception of dealing with a few scrapes a bruises or just ignoring any health concerns in hope they'll go away. And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. Anyway, back to the uncles ideas. If people would get off their butts and walk 30 minutes a day they'd probably not need the majority of the health care they think they need today. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
The law that was cited by the guy that drove his airplane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas. At 01:23 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote: Examples please. Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote: And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of healthcare? As a percentage of overall costs? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Enough to make a difference in cost and practice. Stewart At 07:32 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote: And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of healthcare? As a percentage of overall costs? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
A friend of mine who was an OB in Pennsylvania said the insurance was so bad he moved to another state. Imagine the costs of starting or buying a new practice and you can think of what the insurance must cost to make it worth doing. Those costs get passed on. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Enough to make a difference in cost and practice. Stewart At 07:32 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote: And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of healthcare? As a percentage of overall costs? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
My youngest talks of the cars he would like to own, and given the right circumstances could pay for. (He is in college, but also the national guard bringing in a regular income.) Every car he would like to own, would be affordable except for insurance. He could pay for the car, but the insurance would bankrupt him. (Or in this case me.) So it always lurks there in the background. Over the past few years we have dropped the number of full time clergy. Largest reason cited why a church no longer has a full time pastor? Cant afford the insurance benefits. Stewart At 08:07 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: A friend of mine who was an OB in Pennsylvania said the insurance was so bad he moved to another state. Imagine the costs of starting or buying a new practice and you can think of what the insurance must cost to make it worth doing. Those costs get passed on. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Yeah, but how **significant** a difference? Quantitative measure is what I'm looking for. Surely some think tank has run the numbers? Fred Holmes At 08:44 AM 3/1/2010, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Enough to make a difference in cost and practice. Stewart At 07:32 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote: And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of healthcare? As a percentage of overall costs? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
That's not true. The sweetheart deal wasn't one, and never happened. It's not in the bill. Ideas are discussed as part of the process of writing legislation. Many of those never make it to law. The Republican Supreme Court decided that lobbying by huge corporations is great, and just made it easier. That's not good for small businesses or individuals. Bet you're glad you voted for corporate excesses to be enhanced. Give a real example, not a fantasy. How about the health care bill? Unions got a sweetheart deal to be free from the higher taxes of the more expensive health plans thus screwing would be smaller businesses wanting to give their employees good plans. In general, do you really think all the lobbying by multinational/multibillion dollar corporations helps them or helps small business? On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:23 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Examples please. Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
You know how I vote? Wow. You complain about lobbying by huge corporations, I didn't like the ruling either but the problem is we have other interests already doing the same things and worse. Ever watch MSNBC? It's an arm for Obama, plain and simple. Ever watch Fox? It's an arm for the conservatives...why should GE or Fox be aloud to spew (think Olbermann/Mathews/Hannity) their 'opinions' laden ever so lightly with so called facts every night and then you cry about this SC decision. You think this is a 'republican' decision but it also affects unions and other left wing organizations. It affects companies like GE whose CEO is advising Obama, not exactly a conservative guy. Why people think corporations are 'conservative' is beyond me. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:17 AM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: That's not true. The sweetheart deal wasn't one, and never happened. It's not in the bill. Ideas are discussed as part of the process of writing legislation. Many of those never make it to law. The Republican Supreme Court decided that lobbying by huge corporations is great, and just made it easier. That's not good for small businesses or individuals. Bet you're glad you voted for corporate excesses to be enhanced. Give a real example, not a fantasy. How about the health care bill? Unions got a sweetheart deal to be free from the higher taxes of the more expensive health plans thus screwing would be smaller businesses wanting to give their employees good plans. In general, do you really think all the lobbying by multinational/multibillion dollar corporations helps them or helps small business? On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:23 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Examples please. Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Fred Holmes escribió: And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of healthcare? As a percentage of overall costs? The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that medical practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't police them either until too many patients are harmed. In too many cases, incompetent doctors who maim or kill patients, and bad hospitals, are still in business when they should be shut down and have medical licenses taken away. That could reduce insurance costs for everybody. However, when Republicans talk about tort reform, they want to limit the ability of patients who have been injured due to medical incompetence to have their cases ineligible for hearings or trials. This injures more patients without solving the problem, while also hurting the lawyers who file legitimate cases, in effect, further denying coverage in multiple ways. Tort reform in the US is a euphemism for keeping Democratic lawyers from helping injured patients, solely because they're not Republican. The liability and damage claims as a percentage of overall costs is less than 5%. The biggest health insurance cost to consumers from private for-profit companies is overhead--which is about 2-3% for Medicare, around 10% for private non-profits, and 20-30% for the for-profit companies. The for-profit companies made bad investments and raised premiums to make up for that, too. So tort reform makes minimal difference when compared to having nonprofit health insurance. After all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses and misfortunes, so why do many health health insurance executives have multi-million dollar salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have billion dollar profits? That's what causes high premiums, not a trumped up need for tort reform. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
Fred Holmes escribió: The law that was cited by the guy that drove his airplane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas. The guy was a tax evader. The law he objected to is in common use around the country. If you contract for only one company, you're a de facto employee and subject to withholding. Stack not only objected to withholding, he didn't pay his taxes. He also didn't like the tax exemptions for churches. I don't either, but I don't kill people to make a point. It seems that he hated the Catholic church, but didn't direct his hatred toward other wealthy churches either. Do you have a real example or another nut case like Stack? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote: The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that medical practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't police them either until too many patients are harmed. In too many cases, incompetent doctors who maim or kill patients, and bad hospitals, are still in business when they should be shut down and have medical licenses taken away. That could reduce insurance costs for everybody. This says to me that real-world regulation doesn't work. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote: After all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses and misfortunes, so why do many health health insurance executives have multi-million dollar salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have billion dollar profits? Let's do [some of] the math on this one. The other day the CEO of one of the health insurers said before Congress that she received $10M in compensation, something like $1M in salary and $9M in stock options. More or less. Well if it's a major medical insurer, surely it has 10 million policyholders in a country of 300 million citizens. So it cost about $1 per policyholder to pay the CEO compensation package? Even if it were $10, that's not much. And if the CEO makes the organization of that size work well, I would think that she's worth it. Huge enterprises are very difficult to make work well. So the government wants to trade in ten(? or more) insurance companies for one huge organization that covers everybody, and pay the CEO of that how much? Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
There is no regulation. Hospitals are allowed to operate based on state guidelines and review boards. There is no federal guidelines on Hospitals. Just like doctors you have 50 different sets of guidelines out there. Stewart At 10:51 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote: At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote: The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that medical practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't police them either until too many patients are harmed. In too many cases, incompetent doctors who maim or kill patients, and bad hospitals, are still in business when they should be shut down and have medical licenses taken away. That could reduce insurance costs for everybody. This says to me that real-world regulation doesn't work. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 10:07 AM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: There is no federal guidelines on Hospitals. That isn't true, Stewart. You have overlooked the respective sections of both the US Code, and the CFR, which deal with military hospitals and VA hospitals. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 09:35 PM 2/28/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Bob I have no need to convince anyone of what I believe, but when asked I will explain it. Thank you for responding, Stewart. However, I didn't mention the act of convincing others of what [you] believe. I spoke, instead, of attempting to convince others that what you believe (as an article of religious faith, doctrine, or dogma) is, somehow, empirical fact or, to use your word, reality. Those are two very different behaviors. Also note that I believe it to be truth, but am aware that what I believe is truth may not be what others believe. That really isn't what I was talking about. I was, instead, talking about attempting to convince others, whether or not they believed what you believe, that what you believe (again, as an article of religious faith) is, as I said, empirical fact. The word truth, as you use it here, is ambiguous and, arguably, quibbling and equivocating. Truth has empirical and objective connotations, so to use it when you are referring to something out of subjectively-held religious doctrine or dogma, without specifically stating clearly that that's what you're doing, could easily be perceived as misleading. That is, it could easily appear that you are holding out your religious belief as being empirically factual, which, as I pointed out above, simply cannot be the case. Ever. Plus, it reveals how weak your faith is. Any attempt even to suggest, let alone to argue, that some article of religious faith is reality or truth, such that those who don't share your religious views are, nevertheless, bound, empirically, by such article, is insulting to any American who values the free exercise clause of the First Amendment. And if something like that is done by the government, it's a violation of the establishment clause, and it is called, in its hardball forms, theocracy. Like under God, in the pledge of allegiance, and In God We Trust, on our currency. The reality I stated is that people are dual natured. But, you framed this duality as an article of religious faith. Within that particular welter, it cannot be reality, to the extent that reality is what is experienced by people who reject your religious beliefs. And if you're attempting to convince others that your article of faith is empirically real, as opposed to imaginary or subjectively faith-based, then you reveal, as I said previously, how weak your faith is. However, if you want to take your observation out of your religion, and provide some empirical, and objectively-appraisable, evidence of duality, to place it within the welter of, let's say, sociology (I picked that particular discipline because you and I have been here before, Stewart, and I rely upon the definition of sociology that I proposed last time, which was the scientific study of human interaction), then your attempt to convince me, scientifically, of the duality of nature becomes, well, scientific, and, thus, it says nothing at all about your religious faith. Or anyone else's. I cant remember the old axiom but I think it is keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. That was Michael Corleone (Al Pacino), in The Godfather II, talking to Frank Pentangeli (Michael Vincente Gazzo) about Hyman Roth (Lee Strasberg). Maybe you're more perspicacious than I, but I don't see the application of that saying to this discussion. But you can probably fill entire libraries with books of stuff that I don't see or understand. BTW, Pentangeli's salient remark in the above scene was something like, Your father did BUSINESS with Hyman Roth. Your father RESPECTED Hyman Roth. But your father never TRUSTED Hyman Roth. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Only those hospitals and they are minimal at best. All other hospitals that you or I would normally use have no federal guidelines. Can you get treated at a VA hospital or a military hospital on a routine basis? Also note they have very limited tort options. Stewart At 04:05 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: At 10:07 AM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: There is no federal guidelines on Hospitals. That isn't true, Stewart. You have overlooked the respective sections of both the US Code, and the CFR, which deal with military hospitals and VA hospitals. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Fred Holmes wrote: Let's do [some of] the math on this one. The other day the CEO of one of the health insurers said before Congress that she received $10M in compensation, something like $1M in salary and $9M in stock options. More or less. Well if it's a major medical insurer, surely it has 10 million policyholders in a country of 300 million citizens. So it cost about $1 per policyholder to pay the CEO compensation package? Even if it were $10, that's not much. And if the CEO makes the organization of that size work well, I would think that she's worth it. Huge enterprises are very difficult to make work well. So the government wants to trade in ten(? or more) insurance companies for one huge organization that covers everybody, and pay the CEO of that how much? Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of around 30%. That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big chunk of change. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: Haven't heard that argument or of Sprouts? But paying for our own health care? What a concept! But in reality, due to the insurance industry, that's become an impossibility with the exception of dealing with a few scrapes a bruises or just ignoring any health concerns in hope they'll go away That's right. Most doctors will not even grant you an appointment without a referral from the insurance company. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 03:59 PM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Only those [VA and military] hospitals and they are minimal at best. What do you mean minimal? Do you mean few in number? If so, how many are there, and how do you know? All other hospitals that you or I would normally use have no federal guidelines. I don't normally use any hospital beyond a VA hospital. Can you get treated at a VA hospital or a military hospital on a routine basis? Yes. In fact, I do. Also note they have very limited tort options. What do you mean very limited? Why do you believe the FTCA doesn't provide most claimants with reasonable, if not complete, tort relief? There exists an entire infrastructure within the VA, and a number of outside non-profit orgs, to help people with claims to file them. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Check out OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) I think they have the same rates you quote Tom. By the way it is done very similarly to what the insurance plans do down here. They negotiate a set rate with Doctors and Hospitals etc. The biggest difference is that they limit technology. Where we might have 1 CT machine and MRI for 25K they would be 1 CT machine and MRI to 250K. One statistic that has been shown to be true down here, is introduce more technology and doctors use it, plus are encouraged to use it to justify costs of obtaining it. Stewart At 06:13 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of around 30%. That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big chunk of change. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Moderation in all things is good. Stewart I always liked this quotation. Particularly since it means that moderation in following the advice of the quotation is tantamount to permitting excess in all else. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
No I mean minimal regulations. You are one of the lucky few who get to use the VA system. I served 11 years in the reserves and I am not allowed to use the VA system. In order to use the VA you must be eligible and that number is climbing once again after dropping off. It is a very good system over all. My sons companion uses it as he is a DAV (Officially now) My youngest might be able to use it, but they will usually not credit training time for VA eligibility. They have a good compliment of staff and support staff. I have known a few VA chaplains in my time good folks. (I also knew a VA Doc, and again top notch) And because you are using a federal system you are limited on tort options. What you highlighted is a very huge disparity between the normal system most everyone has to use and the federal system that the eligible few get to use. Blessings on the fact that you are eligible to use the VA and do. Some of my memebrs use it and are very pleased. Stewart At 06:23 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: At 03:59 PM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Only those [VA and military] hospitals and they are minimal at best. What do you mean minimal? Do you mean few in number? If so, how many are there, and how do you know? All other hospitals that you or I would normally use have no federal guidelines. I don't normally use any hospital beyond a VA hospital. Can you get treated at a VA hospital or a military hospital on a routine basis? Yes. In fact, I do. Also note they have very limited tort options. What do you mean very limited? Why do you believe the FTCA doesn't provide most claimants with reasonable, if not complete, tort relief? There exists an entire infrastructure within the VA, and a number of outside non-profit orgs, to help people with claims to file them. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
I really much prefer Augustine of Hippos comment. Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet Stewart At 06:25 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Moderation in all things is good. Stewart I always liked this quotation. Particularly since it means that moderation in following the advice of the quotation is tantamount to permitting excess in all else. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Fred Holmes wrote: This says to me that real-world regulation doesn't work. No, this says that laissez-faire lack of regulation is a deadly mistake. Worse, instead of fixing the problem, the wing nut solution is to protect the evil doers and take away the injured people's right to compensation. If bad doctors and hospitals were closed down, insurance rates would go down (provided that the insurance companies did not simply pocket the money). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:28 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Check out OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) I think they have the same rates you quote Tom. Ontario does something in addition to limiting crazy high management salaries. They also manage capital expenditures and utilization rates. That leads to further savings. In the USA we have doctors setting up their own CT centers. That leads to too many CT machines, low utilization, and high cost. It also leads to a conflict of interest for their doctor owners. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Ontario's Health Insurance Plan would kill me and several of my friends. I have a rare disease, and my meds run about $30k monthly. I take three meds daily. My friend Cindy Waters-Goodman is losing this option because she lives in Ontario. The Globe and Mail has already locked up the story, but (unfortunately) National Review has a good shot at it at http://healthcare.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2ZjMTk2NDllN2Y5MTMwMTdjOWVkODY3YTM4ZDU2ZGU Briefly, Ontario pays for only one treatment, and if you have private insurance which pays for one, then they pay for none. She needs two. I need three. We need reform. This isn't it. - Original Message - From: Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] Check out OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) I think they have the same rates you quote Tom. By the way it is done very similarly to what the insurance plans do down here. They negotiate a set rate with Doctors and Hospitals etc. The biggest difference is that they limit technology. Where we might have 1 CT machine and MRI for 25K they would be 1 CT machine and MRI to 250K. One statistic that has been shown to be true down here, is introduce more technology and doctors use it, plus are encouraged to use it to justify costs of obtaining it. Stewart At 06:13 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of around 30%. That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big chunk of change. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Where I live in South East Alabama, there are at least 4 MRI and CT machines serving a population of 100K. That also may be a little under as some doctor groups may have their own machines. My in-laws live in Northern Ontario. They need to travel a minimum of 60 miles and possibly 90 miles to get to their closet MRI/CT machines to serve a similar population. When I lived in North Central Wisconsin it was similar. But since that time these machines have sprung up all over the place. Stewart At 07:32 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Ontario does something in addition to limiting crazy high management salaries. They also manage capital expenditures and utilization rates. That leads to further savings. In the USA we have doctors setting up their own CT centers. That leads to too many CT machines, low utilization, and high cost. It also leads to a conflict of interest for their doctor owners. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: I really much prefer Augustine of Hippos comment. Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet Stewart At 06:25 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Moderation in all things is good. Stewart I always liked this quotation. Particularly since it means that moderation in following the advice of the quotation is tantamount to permitting excess in all else. There you go! A man of wisdom, Augustine, I say. Chastity and continence (I assume from the latter word, maybe being similar to the former word: meaning to refrain from sexual intercourse instead of a second meaning of peeing or pooping involuntarily) comes with the development of wisdom for those who actually develop wisdom with age. Lucky is the man (or woman) who gains wisdom before gaining chastity continence. In my opinion, very lucky are those who survive long after developing their chastity and continence. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: We need reform. This isn't it. I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Read the article. Bonnie has already died. - Original Message - From: tjpa t...@tjpa.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: We need reform. This isn't it. I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Ellen I am a little curious. OHIP did not usually cover prescriptions. That was a separate private insurance. Once you became a senior or for other circumstances the provincial Ministry of Health might be the ones who would cover these things. So what I am saying was that it was not OHIP that denied her coverage, but the provincial authorities which did this. Still does not justify it. Stewart At 08:51 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Read the article. Bonnie has already died. - Original Message - From: tjpa t...@tjpa.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: We need reform. This isn't it. I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Stewart, Right, most of us are eligible for disability upon diagnosis of Pulmonary Hypertension, so whatever the Ontario version of Medicare is what they would have been using, and secondly, my treatments aren't pharmaceuticals, but treatments, billed like chemotherapy (except I'll be taking them for the rest of my life). It's more of a case of one size not fitting all. - Original Message - From: Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] Ellen I am a little curious. OHIP did not usually cover prescriptions. That was a separate private insurance. Once you became a senior or for other circumstances the provincial Ministry of Health might be the ones who would cover these things. So what I am saying was that it was not OHIP that denied her coverage, but the provincial authorities which did this. Still does not justify it. Stewart At 08:51 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Read the article. Bonnie has already died. - Original Message - From: tjpa t...@tjpa.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: We need reform. This isn't it. I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Correct and it never should. Medicine like other fields of science are ever changing fields of treatments and surgeries etc. Any one who does this is guilty of medical malpractice. Stewart At 10:09 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Stewart, Right, most of us are eligible for disability upon diagnosis of Pulmonary Hypertension, so whatever the Ontario version of Medicare is what they would have been using, and secondly, my treatments aren't pharmaceuticals, but treatments, billed like chemotherapy (except I'll be taking them for the rest of my life). It's more of a case of one size not fitting all. - Original Message - From: Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] Ellen I am a little curious. OHIP did not usually cover prescriptions. That was a separate private insurance. Once you became a senior or for other circumstances the provincial Ministry of Health might be the ones who would cover these things. So what I am saying was that it was not OHIP that denied her coverage, but the provincial authorities which did this. Still does not justify it. Stewart At 08:51 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: Read the article. Bonnie has already died. - Original Message - From: tjpa t...@tjpa.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability] On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: We need reform. This isn't it. I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its customers to save money. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Quoting Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Sorry Stewart, I know you're in the business of thinking people are good, but these two statements are contradictory. If people were basically good they wouldn't be trying to screw you at every opportunity (and *wouldn't* need regulating). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. On Feb 28, 2010 8:12 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Sorry Stewart, I know you're in the business of thinking people are good, but these two statements are contradictory. If people were basically good they wouldn't be trying to screw you at every opportunity (and *wouldn't* need regulating). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Lutheran Theology is unique on this one. We believe in Simul Justus Et Picatur Luther's oft quoted Latin phrase means Sinner yet at the same time Saint! So yes they are contradictory, but also reality. Stewart At 09:07 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Quoting Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Sorry Stewart, I know you're in the business of thinking people are good, but these two statements are contradictory. If people were basically good they wouldn't be trying to screw you at every opportunity (and *wouldn't* need regulating). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Moderation in all things is good. Stewart At 09:22 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. On Feb 28, 2010 8:12 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
At 07:20 PM 2/28/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Lutheran Theology is unique on this one. We believe in Simul Justus Et Picatur Luther's oft quoted Latin phrase means Sinner yet at the same time Saint! So yes they are contradictory, but also reality. If it (the contradictory aspects of human nature) is an article of your Episcopal faith, then, necessarily, it's not, and, semantically, cannot ever be, reality, in any empirical sense. Empirical fact and articles of faith are necessarily mutually exclusive. My own take on what you have done is this, and I don't mean to single you out, Stewart, since I see anyone who does what you did in the same way: The more one has to convince others that what one believes (as an article of faith, that is) is fact or truth, the weaker that one is telling me his/her faith is. Someone whose faith is strong has no need to convince those with whom he differs that he is right or correct, in some absolute or objective sense. People whose faith is very strong have no need to convince anyone (who differs with them) of anything. Moderation in all things is good. Including moderation. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 02/28/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Bob I have no need to convince anyone of what I believe, but when asked I will explain it. Also note that I believe it to be truth, but am aware that what I believe is truth may not be what others believe. The reality I stated is that people are dual natured. I cant remember the old axiom but I think it is keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. Stewart At 11:25 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: At 07:20 PM 2/28/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Lutheran Theology is unique on this one. We believe in Simul Justus Et Picatur Luther's oft quoted Latin phrase means Sinner yet at the same time Saint! So yes they are contradictory, but also reality. If it (the contradictory aspects of human nature) is an article of your Episcopal faith, then, necessarily, it's not, and, semantically, cannot ever be, reality, in any empirical sense. Empirical fact and articles of faith are necessarily mutually exclusive. My own take on what you have done is this, and I don't mean to single you out, Stewart, since I see anyone who does what you did in the same way: The more one has to convince others that what one believes (as an article of faith, that is) is fact or truth, the weaker that one is telling me his/her faith is. Someone whose faith is strong has no need to convince those with whom he differs that he is right or correct, in some absolute or objective sense. People whose faith is very strong have no need to convince anyone (who differs with them) of anything. Moderation in all things is good. Including moderation. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 02/28/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
Examples please. Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
You and my uncle would really get along, at least on that idea. He believes the whole health care debate is a bunch of garbage due to problems we've created ourselves with our own health and care. And he's not far off on that. If the majority of us didn't need health care at every cut and scrape the majority probably wouldn't need insurance. Or hospitals wouldn't be burdened by people without insurance because little med centers won't accept them without insurance, even if all they need is a band aid. Here is where I agree, we have a broke system. Not due to regulation, but rather the lack of it. If you didn't pay your weekly lackey enough this week for protection, you should only blame yourself, right? And people think the bankers are the crooks. They are, just not as good a bunch of crooks and the insurance industry. Yes, regulation is a good thing. Look at your monthly expenditures to find out why. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Feb 28, 2010, at 8:25 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Moderation in all things is good. Stewart At 09:22 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. On Feb 28, 2010 8:12 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls...]
OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Sorry Stewart, I know you're in the business of thinking people are good, but these two statements are contradictory. If people were basically good they wouldn't be trying to screw you at every opportunity (and *wouldn't* need regulating). Even in dangerous places, even with language barriers, my experience has been that individuals are generally good--often exceptionally generous beyond expectation. However we need regulation because people tend to do stupid things in groups that they wouldn't do alone. The bigger and more powerful the group, the greater tendency to be irresponsible or evil, as in corporations. Hence the need for regulation. Stewart is right. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Sounds like one of the arguments the CEO of Sprouts? was making...make people *pay* for their health care and they might not go for every sniffle...they might take care of themselves better. If we all had grocery store insurance we'd be buying steak every day of the week instead of ramen noodles to get through college. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: You and my uncle would really get along, at least on that idea. He believes the whole health care debate is a bunch of garbage due to problems we've created ourselves with our own health and care. And he's not far off on that. If the majority of us didn't need health care at every cut and scrape the majority probably wouldn't need insurance. Or hospitals wouldn't be burdened by people without insurance because little med centers won't accept them without insurance, even if all they need is a band aid. Here is where I agree, we have a broke system. Not due to regulation, but rather the lack of it. If you didn't pay your weekly lackey enough this week for protection, you should only blame yourself, right? And people think the bankers are the crooks. They are, just not as good a bunch of crooks and the insurance industry. Yes, regulation is a good thing. Look at your monthly expenditures to find out why. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Feb 28, 2010, at 8:25 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Moderation in all things is good. Stewart At 09:22 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. On Feb 28, 2010 8:12 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote: Quoting Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
How about the health care bill? Unions got a sweetheart deal to be free from the higher taxes of the more expensive health plans thus screwing would be smaller businesses wanting to give their employees good plans. In general, do you really think all the lobbying by multinational/multibillion dollar corporations helps them or helps small business? On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:23 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Examples please. Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Bob, I think there's a word for that also. Isn't that called fanaticism? The way I see it, if you're absolutely sure you're right, you may or may not be, but you're unlikely to be deterred from your faith and unquestioning lack of thought. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Feb 28, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Robert Michael Abrams wrote: At 07:20 PM 2/28/2010, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Lutheran Theology is unique on this one. We believe in Simul Justus Et Picatur Luther's oft quoted Latin phrase means Sinner yet at the same time Saint! So yes they are contradictory, but also reality. If it (the contradictory aspects of human nature) is an article of your Episcopal faith, then, necessarily, it's not, and, semantically, cannot ever be, reality, in any empirical sense. Empirical fact and articles of faith are necessarily mutually exclusive. My own take on what you have done is this, and I don't mean to single you out, Stewart, since I see anyone who does what you did in the same way: The more one has to convince others that what one believes (as an article of faith, that is) is fact or truth, the weaker that one is telling me his/her faith is. Someone whose faith is strong has no need to convince those with whom he differs that he is right or correct, in some absolute or objective sense. People whose faith is very strong have no need to convince anyone (who differs with them) of anything. Moderation in all things is good. Including moderation. Bob I'm on the case, from outer space! OK End * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 02/28/10 07:34:00 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls...]
Well said. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:22 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Sorry Stewart, I know you're in the business of thinking people are good, but these two statements are contradictory. If people were basically good they wouldn't be trying to screw you at every opportunity (and *wouldn't* need regulating). Even in dangerous places, even with language barriers, my experience has been that individuals are generally good--often exceptionally generous beyond expectation. However we need regulation because people tend to do stupid things in groups that they wouldn't do alone. The bigger and more powerful the group, the greater tendency to be irresponsible or evil, as in corporations. Hence the need for regulation. Stewart is right. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls...]
True, we agree..but when you have lobbyists for those big corporations writing the very regulations isn't that a problem? Which representative was it that laughed when a reporter asked if he had read the bill he was voting for? On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:22 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Sorry Stewart, I know you're in the business of thinking people are good, but these two statements are contradictory. If people were basically good they wouldn't be trying to screw you at every opportunity (and *wouldn't* need regulating). Even in dangerous places, even with language barriers, my experience has been that individuals are generally good--often exceptionally generous beyond expectation. However we need regulation because people tend to do stupid things in groups that they wouldn't do alone. The bigger and more powerful the group, the greater tendency to be irresponsible or evil, as in corporations. Hence the need for regulation. Stewart is right. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls...]
Just remembered, it was John Conyers. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:07 AM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: True, we agree..but when you have lobbyists for those big corporations writing the very regulations isn't that a problem? Which representative was it that laughed when a reporter asked if he had read the bill he was voting for? On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:22 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: OK I come from this on both sides. As a theologian I view mankind through both eyes. He is basically good, but there is a corrupt part of him that will screw you whenever he gets a chance. Sorry Stewart, I know you're in the business of thinking people are good, but these two statements are contradictory. If people were basically good they wouldn't be trying to screw you at every opportunity (and *wouldn't* need regulating). Even in dangerous places, even with language barriers, my experience has been that individuals are generally good--often exceptionally generous beyond expectation. However we need regulation because people tend to do stupid things in groups that they wouldn't do alone. The bigger and more powerful the group, the greater tendency to be irresponsible or evil, as in corporations. Hence the need for regulation. Stewart is right. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]
Haven't heard that argument or of Sprouts? But paying for our own health care? What a concept! But in reality, due to the insurance industry, that's become an impossibility with the exception of dealing with a few scrapes a bruises or just ignoring any health concerns in hope they'll go away. And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs. Anyway, back to the uncles ideas. If people would get off their butts and walk 30 minutes a day they'd probably not need the majority of the health care they think they need today. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:29 PM, mike wrote: Sounds like one of the arguments the CEO of Sprouts? was making...make people *pay* for their health care and they might not go for every sniffle...they might take care of themselves better. If we all had grocery store insurance we'd be buying steak every day of the week instead of ramen noodles to get through college. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: You and my uncle would really get along, at least on that idea. He believes the whole health care debate is a bunch of garbage due to problems we've created ourselves with our own health and care. And he's not far off on that. If the majority of us didn't need health care at every cut and scrape the majority probably wouldn't need insurance. Or hospitals wouldn't be burdened by people without insurance because little med centers won't accept them without insurance, even if all they need is a band aid. Here is where I agree, we have a broke system. Not due to regulation, but rather the lack of it. If you didn't pay your weekly lackey enough this week for protection, you should only blame yourself, right? And people think the bankers are the crooks. They are, just not as good a bunch of crooks and the insurance industry. Yes, regulation is a good thing. Look at your monthly expenditures to find out why. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Evil people
My thinking on this is a bit different from most. I've only worked for a large company twice in my life. Neither offered healthcare without my paying $100+/month. And that was at the age of less then 30 both times. With these two exceptions I've never worked for a company with more then 50 employees. None of them could afford to offer health care. This time period of lack of affordable health care spans 30 years. When are we all going to realize the system is broken. I believe mostly due to the insurance industry that's created the problem. With half a family full of lawyers I could go into this at length, but i'm sure everyone's heard it before, or it's now falling on deaf ears. So I won't. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:45 PM, mike wrote: How about the health care bill? Unions got a sweetheart deal to be free from the higher taxes of the more expensive health plans thus screwing would be smaller businesses wanting to give their employees good plans. In general, do you really think all the lobbying by multinational/multibillion dollar corporations helps them or helps small business? On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:23 PM, b_s-wilk b1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: Examples please. Except sometimes the regulation is used to do the screwing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
