Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 07:54:48PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:

> If you're not willing to do the work to diagnose your own system, then
> this thread is over.

Guess it's over. thanks to all who have tried to help.

--

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:43:29PM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 07:18:36PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:
> > If you are running "startx" on tty1 in Debian 11 and Xorg is running
> > as root instead of your regular user account, then START THERE.
> 
> I have tested debian 12 not 11.

OK.

> > What video card do you have?
> 
> nvidia/amd *seperate systems

Pick ONE of the systems, and go into DETAIL.  Actually RUN COMMANDS
and figure shit out!

What is the ACTUAL CARD?

lspci -nn | grep -i vga

That may not be a strong enough command for all setups.  I don't remember
how you have to grep when dealing with Optimus systems.  If your system
has multiple video cards, say so.

> > Which driver is Xorg using?  (Find the actually correct Xorg.0.log file --
> > there may be more than one -- and find the driver details in there.)
> 
> nvidia/amdgpu *seperate systems

Find the log file and ACTUALLY CHECK IT.

None of this hand-waving bullshit.

> > Is the xserver-xorg-legacy package installed?
> 
> apt install i3-wm xinit 
> don't pull it. 

Run "dpkg -l xserver-xorg-legacy" to find out whether it's installed.

I am not aware of any way startx as a non-root user could launch an Xorg
as root if that package is not installed, so I'm VERY curious to learn
the actual details of what is going on with your system.

> > Do you have all the firmware installed that your video card wants?
> > (Look for "firmware" in dmesg.)
> 
> firmware-amd-graphics/firmware-nvidia-gsp

Actually RUN THE COMMAND.  dmesg | grep -i firmware

Find out what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

No hand-waving.

No guessing.

No generalizing.

No conflating multiple systems together as if they are one system.

Pick one system and DO THE ACTUAL WORK.

If you're not willing to do the work to diagnose your own system, then
this thread is over.

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 07:18:36PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:
> On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:03:27PM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> > Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 08:26:55PM +0200 schrieb Vincent Lefevre:
> > > i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
> > > what display manager you're using (if any).
> > 
> > so we assume that the majority use a display manager who cares about this 
> > via polkit or similar.
> > x11 as root by default is a security risk to which all those running i3-wm 
> > under xinit are unnecessarily exposed.
> > unless they know what they are doing.
> 

> If you are running "startx" on tty1 in Debian 11 and Xorg is running
> as root instead of your regular user account, then START THERE.

I have tested debian 12 not 11.

> What video card do you have?

nvidia/amd *seperate systems

> Which driver is Xorg using?  (Find the actually correct Xorg.0.log file --
> there may be more than one -- and find the driver details in there.)

nvidia/amdgpu *seperate systems

> Is the xserver-xorg-legacy package installed?

apt install i3-wm xinit 
don't pull it. 

> Do you have all the firmware installed that your video card wants?
> (Look for "firmware" in dmesg.)

firmware-amd-graphics/firmware-nvidia-gsp

--

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:03:27PM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 08:26:55PM +0200 schrieb Vincent Lefevre:
> > i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
> > what display manager you're using (if any).
> 
> so we assume that the majority use a display manager who cares about this via 
> polkit or similar.
> x11 as root by default is a security risk to which all those running i3-wm 
> under xinit are unnecessarily exposed.
> unless they know what they are doing.

Dear gods.  Stop babbling about political nonsense!

If you are running "startx" on tty1 in Debian 11 and Xorg is running
as root instead of your regular user account, then START THERE.

That is the PROBLEM.  Now let's DIAGNOSE it.  We need DETAILS!

What video card do you have?

Which driver is Xorg using?  (Find the actually correct Xorg.0.log file --
there may be more than one -- and find the driver details in there.)

Is the xserver-xorg-legacy package installed?

Do you have all the firmware installed that your video card wants?
(Look for "firmware" in dmesg.)

Here are some things that DO NOT MATTER:

 * the name of the window manager you are using, if any

 * the name of any display manager that is not installed, because you're
   not using any, because you're running startx, and we already KNOW THIS

 * polkit

 * anything you do AFTER startx

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 08:26:55PM +0200 schrieb Vincent Lefevre:
> On 2023-06-02 22:21:56 +, therealcyclist wrote:
> > Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 07:07:05PM +0200 schrieb Michel Verdier:
> > > Le 2 juin 2023 therealcyclist a écrit :
> > > 
> > > > I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed 
> > > > i3-wm.
> > > > I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> > > > to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> > > > that can't be intentional, can it?
> > > 
> > > Maybe because some display managers want xorg as root
> > > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xorg#Rootless_Xorg
> > 
> > You linked to the Archlinux Wiki and I have installed i3-wm under
> > archlinux and there X11 runs without root privileges by default.
> > 
> > I assumed that it is the same under Debian because Debian is known
> > for having relatively safe default values.
> > It looks like i3 doesn't need x11 as root either.
> 
> i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
> what display manager you're using (if any).
> 

so we assume that the majority use a display manager who cares about this via 
polkit or similar.
x11 as root by default is a security risk to which all those running i3-wm 
under xinit are unnecessarily exposed.
unless they know what they are doing.

---

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2023-06-02 22:21:56 +, therealcyclist wrote:
> Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 07:07:05PM +0200 schrieb Michel Verdier:
> > Le 2 juin 2023 therealcyclist a écrit :
> > 
> > > I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed 
> > > i3-wm.
> > > I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> > > to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> > > that can't be intentional, can it?
> > 
> > Maybe because some display managers want xorg as root
> > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xorg#Rootless_Xorg
> 
> You linked to the Archlinux Wiki and I have installed i3-wm under
> archlinux and there X11 runs without root privileges by default.
> 
> I assumed that it is the same under Debian because Debian is known
> for having relatively safe default values.
> It looks like i3 doesn't need x11 as root either.

i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
what display manager you're using (if any).

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 08:22:27PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:
>
> I was thinking of these changes in Stretch:
> 
>  * For many Intel graphics chipsets, the Stretch X server will use the
>modeset driver instead of the intel driver. The modeset driver may
>require non-free firmware (firmware-misc-nonfree) to activate features,
>even on systems which did not use this firmware under Jessie.
> 
>  * For some older graphics chipsets, support has been relegated to
>"legacy drivers", which require the old setuid X server to run. Install
>xserver-xorg-legacy if you require one of these drivers.
> 
> Text from .  This may have nothing
> to do with your issue.  It's just the first thing I could think of that
> could possibly be related.
> 

At this point I have to ask: Is my problem reproducible?

I find it problematic that if you run startx (i3-wm) as user at tty xorg still 
run as root by default.

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 12:11:47AM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 07:52:03PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:
> > No "needs_root_rights" here, so I don't know why yours needs it.  Maybe
> > it's got something to do with driver selection?  If I recall correctly
> > from the days when this change was made, some cards that use legacy
> > drivers may need special configuration.
> 
> graphic driver is nvidia.
> secureboot is activated with mok (debian default key).
> 
> what makes you think it's different with e.g. amdgpu?

I was thinking of these changes in Stretch:

 * For many Intel graphics chipsets, the Stretch X server will use the
   modeset driver instead of the intel driver. The modeset driver may
   require non-free firmware (firmware-misc-nonfree) to activate features,
   even on systems which did not use this firmware under Jessie.

 * For some older graphics chipsets, support has been relegated to
   "legacy drivers", which require the old setuid X server to run. Install
   xserver-xorg-legacy if you require one of these drivers.

Text from .  This may have nothing
to do with your issue.  It's just the first thing I could think of that
could possibly be related.

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 07:52:03PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:
> That's quite strange.  I have not installed bookworm, but I just upgraded
> to it.  I use startx as well (but with fvwm instead of i3-wm), and I'm not
> seeing this problem.  Xorg runs as me, just as it has done for the last
> few releases.
> 
> unicorn:~$ ps -ef | grep X
> greg10301007  0 May31 tty1 00:00:00 xinit 
> /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc -- /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc :0 vt1 -keeptty -auth 
> /tmp/serverauth.C7PjJM0pDW
> greg10321030  1 May31 tty1 00:45:52 /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg 
> -nolisten tcp :0 vt1 -keeptty -auth /tmp/serverauth.C7PjJM0pDW
> greg   549271160  0 19:46 pts/300:00:00 grep X
> unicorn:~$ grep -v ^# /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config 
> allowed_users=console
> 
> No "needs_root_rights" here, so I don't know why yours needs it.  Maybe
> it's got something to do with driver selection?  If I recall correctly
> from the days when this change was made, some cards that use legacy
> drivers may need special configuration.
> 

graphic driver is nvidia.
secureboot is activated with mok (debian default key).

what makes you think it's different with e.g. amdgpu?

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 04:32:38PM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed i3-wm.
> I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> that can't be intentional, can it?
> 
> I have fixed the problem by adding the following line in 
> /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config 
> 
> needs_root_rights = no
> 
> After that xorg runs as user.

That's quite strange.  I have not installed bookworm, but I just upgraded
to it.  I use startx as well (but with fvwm instead of i3-wm), and I'm not
seeing this problem.  Xorg runs as me, just as it has done for the last
few releases.

unicorn:~$ ps -ef | grep X
greg10301007  0 May31 tty1 00:00:00 xinit 
/etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc -- /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc :0 vt1 -keeptty -auth 
/tmp/serverauth.C7PjJM0pDW
greg10321030  1 May31 tty1 00:45:52 /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg 
-nolisten tcp :0 vt1 -keeptty -auth /tmp/serverauth.C7PjJM0pDW
greg   549271160  0 19:46 pts/300:00:00 grep X
unicorn:~$ grep -v ^# /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config 
allowed_users=console

No "needs_root_rights" here, so I don't know why yours needs it.  Maybe
it's got something to do with driver selection?  If I recall correctly
from the days when this change was made, some cards that use legacy
drivers may need special configuration.

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 07:07:05PM +0200 schrieb Michel Verdier:
> Le 2 juin 2023 therealcyclist a écrit :
> 
> > I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed 
> > i3-wm.
> > I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> > to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> > that can't be intentional, can it?
> 
> Maybe because some display managers want xorg as root
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xorg#Rootless_Xorg
> 

You linked to the Archlinux Wiki and I have installed i3-wm under archlinux and 
there X11 runs without root privileges by default.

I assumed that it is the same under Debian because Debian is known for having 
relatively safe default values.
It looks like i3 doesn't need x11 as root either.

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 09:24:13PM +0200 schrieb Sven Joachim:
>
> That is rather strange.  The source of the wrapper program that decides
> whether Xorg needs root rights has not been touched for many years[1].
> 
> Cheers,
>Sven
> 
> 
> 1. 
> https://salsa.debian.org/xorg-team/xserver/xorg-server/-/commits/debian-unstable/hw/xfree86/xorg-wrapper.c
> 

Debian bookworm rc4 without gnome, just default system tools and after reboot i 
just run at tty:

sudo apt install i3-wm alacritty xinit xserver-xorg
echo "exec i3" > ~/.xinitrc
startx

and xorg running as root

Re: Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

You linked to the Archlinux Wiki and I have installed i3-wm under archlinux and 
there X11 runs without root privileges by default.

I assumed that it is the same under Debian because Debian is known for having 
relatively safe default values.
It looks like i3 doesn't need x11 as root either.

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Sven Joachim]

On 2023-06-02 16:32 +, therealcyclist wrote:

> I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed i3-wm.
> I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> that can't be intentional, can it?

As long as there is a working kernel driver for all your graphics cards,
this is not intended.

> I have fixed the problem by adding the following line in 
> /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config
>
> needs_root_rights = no
>
> After that xorg runs as user.

That is rather strange.  The source of the wrapper program that decides
whether Xorg needs root rights has not been touched for many years[1].

Cheers,
   Sven


1. 
https://salsa.debian.org/xorg-team/xserver/xorg-server/-/commits/debian-unstable/hw/xfree86/xorg-wrapper.c

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Michel Verdier]

Le 2 juin 2023 therealcyclist a écrit :

> I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed i3-wm.
> I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> that can't be intentional, can it?

Maybe because some display managers want xorg as root
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xorg#Rootless_Xorg

Re: X11 and hot-plugged keyboards and multiple layouts

[Anssi Saari]

Nicolas George  writes:

> Nicolas George (12020-02-19):
>> 8<8<8<8< xi2watch.c >8>8>8>8
>
> Hi.
>
> I am replying to my own mail of three years ago where I explained how to
> configure X11 to set different layouts on different keyboards and handle
> hot-plugging without root privileges. Since a standard tool did not
> exist yet, I had attached a small program of mine to do it.
>
> I have seen this code reproduced on the web, so at least somebody is
> using it. Good.
>
> Then it might interest you that I have made an extended version of it
> and published it:
>
> https://gitlab.com/Cigaes/xi2bind

I finally gave xi2bind a try, using the hierarchy option to do something
(run xmodmap) when a keyboard is plugged in. Or in my case, I have a USB
switch which connects or disconnects a USB hub with my mouse and
keyboard connected to the hub.

It works fine but usage was a little baffling and it doesn't help the
example on how to use the hierarchy command doesn't work due to wrong
quoting.

With some work I think I've worked out which event when the keyboard is
plugged in I should use to run xmodmap, out of the six that happen when
my keyboard is plugged in. With the mouse and hub the total number of
events is actually 16!

For sure it doesn't really matter if xmodmap runs sixteen or six times
or only once but it feels right.

So for adding my extra keys to my quite normal US layout keyboard this
works fine. Unfortunately something weird happens with the modifier keys
and my extra keys working depend on setting Alt_R to mode_switch and
that's not something I can automate currently. Nothing to do with
xi2bind though.

Re: X11 and hot-plugged keyboards and multiple layouts

[Anssi Saari]

Nicolas George  writes:

> Does the xmodmap effect stay if you run it manually after the keyboard
> is hot-plugged?

Yes. I don't have a desktop environment in use on my desktop computer
either so this should work for me.

Re: X11 and hot-plugged keyboards and multiple layouts

[Nicolas George]

Anssi Saari (12023-01-09):
> Wow. It's exactly what I need since I've started to use a USB switch in
> my home office. Assuming it works for me of course. I've thought about
> writing a udev rule but haven't gotten around to it.

I hope the program I wrote can help you.

> I've tried to run xmodmap after the keyboard is hot plugged (via telling
> the USB switch to switch) but it's like the xmodmap doesn't take even
> after I added a delay. Although it seems it worked sometimes. Maybe the
> issue is I've tried to run xmodmap from the other computer over ssh, I
> don't know.

Does the xmodmap effect stay if you run it manually after the keyboard
is hot-plugged?

If so, then you probably already something watching for new devices and
applying a layout. Maybe your desktop manager, they have a habit of
ruining simple things.

If not, then you need to get it to work reliably before you can consider
automating it.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: X11 and hot-plugged keyboards and multiple layouts

[Anssi Saari]

Nicolas George  writes:

> Nicolas George (12020-02-19):
>> 8<8<8<8< xi2watch.c >8>8>8>8
>
> Hi.
>
> I am replying to my own mail of three years ago where I explained how to
> configure X11 to set different layouts on different keyboards and handle
> hot-plugging without root privileges. Since a standard tool did not
> exist yet, I had attached a small program of mine to do it.

Wow. It's exactly what I need since I've started to use a USB switch in
my home office. Assuming it works for me of course. I've thought about
writing a udev rule but haven't gotten around to it.

I've tried to run xmodmap after the keyboard is hot plugged (via telling
the USB switch to switch) but it's like the xmodmap doesn't take even
after I added a delay. Although it seems it worked sometimes. Maybe the
issue is I've tried to run xmodmap from the other computer over ssh, I
don't know.

Re: X11 and hot-plugged keyboards and multiple layouts

[Nicolas George]

Nicolas George (12020-02-19):
> 8<8<8<8< xi2watch.c >8>8>8>8

Hi.

I am replying to my own mail of three years ago where I explained how to
configure X11 to set different layouts on different keyboards and handle
hot-plugging without root privileges. Since a standard tool did not
exist yet, I had attached a small program of mine to do it.

I have seen this code reproduced on the web, so at least somebody is
using it. Good.

Then it might interest you that I have made an extended version of it
and published it:

https://gitlab.com/Cigaes/xi2bind

It has the ability to run a command when a device is plugged or
unplugged, and now it allows to define keyboard shortcuts attached to
only a specific keyboard.

(By the way, do you know a mailing list or website dedicated to
announcing initial releases of small projects like that?)

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
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Re: X11 System

[Diego Rabatone Oliveira]

https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire

E isso pode ser útil também:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1329667/microsoft-teams-and-wayland-will-screen-sharing-be-fixed-in-21-04

Em sex., 21 de mai. de 2021 22:08, Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA <
l...@dutras.org> escreveu:

> 21 mai 2021 20:17 −3, Diego Rabatone Oliveira:
> > procure por "pipewire", "screenshare"
>
> l@nuc:~$ apt-cache search screenshare
> l@nuc:~$
>
>
> --
> /¯\
> \ / +55 (61) 3546 7191xmpp:leand...@jabber.org
>  X  +55 (61) 99302 2691
> / \ BRAZIL GMT−3 https://useplaintext.email/#why-plaintext
>
>
>

Re: X11 System

[Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA]

21 mai 2021 20:17 −3, Diego Rabatone Oliveira:
> procure por "pipewire", "screenshare"

l@nuc:~$ apt-cache search screenshare
l@nuc:~$


-- 
/¯\
\ / +55 (61) 3546 7191    xmpp:leand...@jabber.org
 X  +55 (61) 99302 2691
/ \ BRAZIL GMT−3 https://useplaintext.email/#why-plaintext

Re: X11 System

[Diego Rabatone Oliveira]

Além disso, procure por "pipewire", "screenshare" e "xdg-desktop-portal".
Boa parte dos problemas de compartilhamento de tela no Wayland se resolvem
com o pipewire e o xdg-desktop-portal, sem que você precise voltar para o
Wayland.

Diego Rabatone Oliveira
diraol (arroba) diraol (ponto) eng (ponto) br
Twitter: @diraol


Em sex., 21 de mai. de 2021 às 20:10, Leonardo S. S. da Rocha <
leonardo...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Maravilha gente, suspeite. Muito obrigado pela dica.
>
> Em sex., 21 de mai. de 2021 às 20:09, Alex Porto dos Santos
>  escreveu:
> >
> > Possívelmente você não está usando o xorg e sim o wayland.
> > Na tela de login do gnome tem uma engrenagem com a opção de mudar.
> >
> > Alguns programas não conseguem compartilhar a tela, ou acesso remoto
> pelo wayland
> >
> >
> >
> > Em sex, 21 de mai de 2021 20:04, Leonardo S. S. da Rocha <
> leonardo...@gmail.com> escreveu:
> >>
> >> Olá pessoal, boa noite. Tenho notado uns comportamentos estranhos no
> >> meu sistema. Estou com Debian testing com Gnome 3 instalado. Tenho que
> >> usar o Teams no trabalho. Já há algum tempo não consigo compartilhar a
> >> tela no teams. Agora, tentando rodar o SimpleScreenRecorder recebi uma
> >> mensagem. Algo como:
> >>
> >> You are using a non-X11 window system which is currently not supported
> >> by SimpleScreenRecorder.
> >>
> >> Gostaria de saber se alguém pode recomendar alguma documentação que
> >> trate disso para que eu possa saber se há relação?
> >>
> >> Um outro exemplo: se eu tento rodar uma VM windows no VirtualBox e
> >> gravar a tela, o mouse para de funcionar, ou seja, não há resposta
> >> para ação do clique do mouse. Até que eu feche a VM. Não sei se há
> >> relação!
> >>
> >> Agradeço mais uma vez,
> >>
> >> Leonardo Rocha
> >>
>
>

Re: X11 System

[Leonardo S. S. da Rocha]

Maravilha gente, suspeite. Muito obrigado pela dica.

Em sex., 21 de mai. de 2021 às 20:09, Alex Porto dos Santos
 escreveu:
>
> Possívelmente você não está usando o xorg e sim o wayland.
> Na tela de login do gnome tem uma engrenagem com a opção de mudar.
>
> Alguns programas não conseguem compartilhar a tela, ou acesso remoto pelo 
> wayland
>
>
>
> Em sex, 21 de mai de 2021 20:04, Leonardo S. S. da Rocha 
>  escreveu:
>>
>> Olá pessoal, boa noite. Tenho notado uns comportamentos estranhos no
>> meu sistema. Estou com Debian testing com Gnome 3 instalado. Tenho que
>> usar o Teams no trabalho. Já há algum tempo não consigo compartilhar a
>> tela no teams. Agora, tentando rodar o SimpleScreenRecorder recebi uma
>> mensagem. Algo como:
>>
>> You are using a non-X11 window system which is currently not supported
>> by SimpleScreenRecorder.
>>
>> Gostaria de saber se alguém pode recomendar alguma documentação que
>> trate disso para que eu possa saber se há relação?
>>
>> Um outro exemplo: se eu tento rodar uma VM windows no VirtualBox e
>> gravar a tela, o mouse para de funcionar, ou seja, não há resposta
>> para ação do clique do mouse. Até que eu feche a VM. Não sei se há
>> relação!
>>
>> Agradeço mais uma vez,
>>
>> Leonardo Rocha
>>

Re: X11 System

[Alex Porto dos Santos]

Possívelmente você não está usando o xorg e sim o wayland.
Na tela de login do gnome tem uma engrenagem com a opção de mudar.

Alguns programas não conseguem compartilhar a tela, ou acesso remoto pelo
wayland



Em sex, 21 de mai de 2021 20:04, Leonardo S. S. da Rocha <
leonardo...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Olá pessoal, boa noite. Tenho notado uns comportamentos estranhos no
> meu sistema. Estou com Debian testing com Gnome 3 instalado. Tenho que
> usar o Teams no trabalho. Já há algum tempo não consigo compartilhar a
> tela no teams. Agora, tentando rodar o SimpleScreenRecorder recebi uma
> mensagem. Algo como:
>
> You are using a non-X11 window system which is currently not supported
> by SimpleScreenRecorder.
>
> Gostaria de saber se alguém pode recomendar alguma documentação que
> trate disso para que eu possa saber se há relação?
>
> Um outro exemplo: se eu tento rodar uma VM windows no VirtualBox e
> gravar a tela, o mouse para de funcionar, ou seja, não há resposta
> para ação do clique do mouse. Até que eu feche a VM. Não sei se há
> relação!
>
> Agradeço mais uma vez,
>
> Leonardo Rocha
>
>

Re: X11 System

[Leandro Ramos]

Olá, Leonardo.

O GNOME Shell usa o Wayland por padrão, não o X11 (xorg). Saia da sessão 
e, na hora de logar novamente, clique na engrenagem (canto inferior 
direito da tela de login) e escolha GNOME sobre Xorg. Assim você vai 
conseguir compartilhar a tela.



Leandro Ramos.


Em 21/05/2021 20:03, Leonardo S. S. da Rocha escreveu:

Olá pessoal, boa noite. Tenho notado uns comportamentos estranhos no
meu sistema. Estou com Debian testing com Gnome 3 instalado. Tenho que
usar o Teams no trabalho. Já há algum tempo não consigo compartilhar a
tela no teams. Agora, tentando rodar o SimpleScreenRecorder recebi uma
mensagem. Algo como:

You are using a non-X11 window system which is currently not supported
by SimpleScreenRecorder.

Gostaria de saber se alguém pode recomendar alguma documentação que
trate disso para que eu possa saber se há relação?

Um outro exemplo: se eu tento rodar uma VM windows no VirtualBox e
gravar a tela, o mouse para de funcionar, ou seja, não há resposta
para ação do clique do mouse. Até que eu feche a VM. Não sei se há
relação!

Agradeço mais uma vez,

Leonardo Rocha

Re: X11 / KDE Plasma 5 periodically freezes when I use GUI app inside LXC container

[John Radek]

>
> > That means I managed to narrow down the issue. It’s firewall with
> > default policy DROP instead of REJECT. It also says something about Xorg 
> > doing
> > something on network I have no idea what
>
> OK, It's even weirder - it's not firewall. It's a network. When I
> disconnect RJ45, no issues, no freezes. When I connect it back and
> start using GUI app from within LXC container, it starts freezing. I
> need to narrow down if it's Network Manager or maybe it's just when a
> host network interface has IP...

It's DNS on host ("> /etc/resolv.conf" fixes the problem). I know I
have some issues with the DNS but I had no idea that this might have
such an effect. So Will was right - DNS. I just didn't realize I
should debug DNS outside of a container (on host) ;-).

Thank you both Marco and Will!

Re: X11 / KDE Plasma 5 periodically freezes when I use GUI app inside LXC container

[John Radek]

> That means I managed to narrow down the issue. It’s firewall with
> default policy DROP instead of REJECT. It also says something about Xorg doing
> something on network I have no idea what

OK, It's even weirder - it's not firewall. It's a network. When I
disconnect RJ45, no issues, no freezes. When I connect it back and
start using GUI app from within LXC container, it starts freezing. I
need to narrow down if it's Network Manager or maybe it's just when a
host network interface has IP...

JR

Re: X11 / KDE Plasma 5 periodically freezes when I use GUI app inside LXC container

[John Radek]

> On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 17:23, Marco Möller 
>  wrote:

> You will need to study the relevant documentation first. You then will
> find why two of the parameters are equal to "0" (it is because others
> are in use..., I mentioned already that there are more parameters
> present and I only mentioned some of them to provide you the key words
> for your research). I am sorry for not having time to explain everything
> here on the list, but I know that you will find a lot of information
> published and discussed already. This could be one of the many entry
> points into your studies:
> https://lonesysadmin.net/2013/12/22/better-linux-disk-caching-performance-vm-dirty_ratio/
> Sorry for not being able to answer in more detail, I am simply not
> having time for it right now. :-(  But at least you got some idea where
> you could search for a solution. I am not even sure if this will solve
> your problem, but at least you have this idea now on your list.
> Best wishes, and good luck! Maybe others can contribute more ideas
> and/or solutions!
> Marco.

Thank you very much Marco. After changing many things including filesystem and
disk the containers are running on... It’s not storage! ;-)

E-mail from Will about DNS timeouts let me think about network
timeouts in general.
My containers usually don’t have network access. They don’t even have network
interface which means if you run “ip link” inside of LXC container you
get just “1: lo:”.

BUT on host I have custom config in /etc/nftables.conf. I disconnected
the testing laptop from internet and I cleared ALL rules in /etc/nftables.conf
and after fresh reboot I tested GUI app in a container again. And NO ISSUES!

That means I managed to narrow down the issue. It’s firewall with
default policy DROP instead of REJECT. It also says something about Xorg doing
something on network I have no idea what

Of course I don’t want to disable firewall on my other laptops that are not
for testing only so I need to get logs from Nftables and make sure they’re
REJECTing and not DROPing and therefore they don’t cause timeouts. Or maybe
I can change Xorg behavior but I assume it’ll be easier
to reconfigure nftables...

Thank you both Marco and Will!

Kind regards,
JR

Re: X11 / KDE Plasma 5 periodically freezes when I use GUI app inside LXC container

[Marco Möller]

On 16.06.20 12:59, John Radek wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 09:41, Marco Möller  
wrote:
sudo sysctl vm.swappiness=
sudo sysctl vm.vfs_cache_pressure=
sudo sysctl vm.dirty_background_bytes=
sudo sysctl vm.dirty_bytes=


Thank you Marco.

I checked my current values

---
sudo sysctl vm.swappiness
# vm.swappiness = 60

sudo sysctl vm.vfs_cache_pressure
# vm.vfs_cache_pressure = 100

sudo sysctl vm.dirty_background_bytes
# vm.dirty_background_bytes = 0

sudo sysctl vm.dirty_bytes
# vm.dirty_bytes = 0
---

but I haven't changed anything yet. Will try to change something and
let's see what is going to happen.





On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 10:16, Will Mengarini  wrote:


30 s is suspicious for a DNS timeout, but I don't know
how to identify what's causing it.


Thank you Will. It's not exactly 30sec - sometime it's just 5-10sec,
sometime it is even longer than 30sec.

But that made me think since the container has no interfaces / no IPs
(except localhost).
In Ubuntu container I stopped and disabled systemd-resolvd and add a network
interface with static IP 10.33.44.55 and in /etc/resolv.conf I set the same IP.
Nothing it listening on 53 inside LXC so if a program requests DNS
the request should get immediately refused (no timeout).
But unfortunately that  didn't help. But thank you for trying!




Meanwhile I setup testing laptop. I have identical Debian Buster setup
on multiple laptops
(all have the same issue) so I'm connecting the testing laptop from
the main laptop over SSH.
On testing laptop I'm clicking inside VSCodium to trigger the freeze
and meanwhile I'm in LXC
container (lxc-attach over SSH) from main laptop. I can confirm that
when I'm attached
the system is responsive during the freeze so it's really just GUI,
not the system.

Kind regards,
JR

You will need to study the relevant documentation first. You then will 
find why two of the parameters are equal to "0" (it is because others 
are in use..., I mentioned already that there are more parameters 
present and I only mentioned some of them to provide you the key words 
for your research). I am sorry for not having time to explain everything 
here on the list, but I know that you will find a lot of information 
published and discussed already. This could be one of the many entry 
points into your studies:

https://lonesysadmin.net/2013/12/22/better-linux-disk-caching-performance-vm-dirty_ratio/
Sorry for not being able to answer in more detail, I am simply not 
having time for it right now. :-(  But at least you got some idea where 
you could search for a solution. I am not even sure if this will solve 
your problem, but at least you have this idea now on your list.
Best wishes, and good luck! Maybe others can contribute more ideas 
and/or solutions!

Marco.

Re: X11 / KDE Plasma 5 periodically freezes when I use GUI app inside LXC container

[John Radek]

> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 09:41, Marco Möller 
>  wrote:
> sudo sysctl vm.swappiness=
> sudo sysctl vm.vfs_cache_pressure=
> sudo sysctl vm.dirty_background_bytes=
> sudo sysctl vm.dirty_bytes=

Thank you Marco.

I checked my current values

---
sudo sysctl vm.swappiness
# vm.swappiness = 60

sudo sysctl vm.vfs_cache_pressure
# vm.vfs_cache_pressure = 100

sudo sysctl vm.dirty_background_bytes
# vm.dirty_background_bytes = 0

sudo sysctl vm.dirty_bytes
# vm.dirty_bytes = 0
---

but I haven't changed anything yet. Will try to change something and
let's see what is going to happen.




> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 10:16, Will Mengarini  wrote:
>
>
> 30 s is suspicious for a DNS timeout, but I don't know
> how to identify what's causing it.

Thank you Will. It's not exactly 30sec - sometime it's just 5-10sec,
sometime it is even longer than 30sec.

But that made me think since the container has no interfaces / no IPs
(except localhost).
In Ubuntu container I stopped and disabled systemd-resolvd and add a network
interface with static IP 10.33.44.55 and in /etc/resolv.conf I set the same IP.
Nothing it listening on 53 inside LXC so if a program requests DNS
the request should get immediately refused (no timeout).
But unfortunately that  didn't help. But thank you for trying!




Meanwhile I setup testing laptop. I have identical Debian Buster setup
on multiple laptops
(all have the same issue) so I'm connecting the testing laptop from
the main laptop over SSH.
On testing laptop I'm clicking inside VSCodium to trigger the freeze
and meanwhile I'm in LXC
container (lxc-attach over SSH) from main laptop. I can confirm that
when I'm attached
the system is responsive during the freeze so it's really just GUI,
not the system.

Kind regards,
JR

Re: X11 / KDE Plasma 5 periodically freezes when I use GUI app inside LXC container

[Marco Möller]

On 16.06.20 10:11, John Radek wrote:

It usually takes 30sec and then the desktop unfreeze and everything is
fine again.


This could be caused by the "vm.swappiness", "vm.vfs_cache_pressure" or 
"vm.dirty" settings. These could be configured permanently in 
/etc/sysctl.conf  or  /etc/sysctl.d/myfile.conf , but it is also 
possible to adjust them only temporarily until the next boot.


You could show some of the relevant values (there are more than the ones 
which I list here!) by these commands:

sysctl vm.swappiness
sysctl vm.vfs_cache_pressure
sysctl vm.dirty_background_bytes
sysctl vm.dirty_bytes

For adjusting them temporarily:
sudo sysctl vm.swappiness=
sudo sysctl vm.vfs_cache_pressure=
sudo sysctl vm.dirty_background_bytes=
sudo sysctl vm.dirty_bytes=
I did not write values behind the "=", but of course you have to write 
your values there (I removed my values, because mine are only valid for 
my hardware).


Sorry, I cannot help you more than pointing you to this potential 
solution. I am not experienced enough to give a recommendation on the 
values which you for this parameters should use in your situation. I 
figured out mine for my very old hardware by studying the documentation 
followed by some promising guess and then observing if the freezes which 
occurred to the responsiveness of my desktop GUI disappeared. Well, if 
someone would know which values to recommend for your special situation, 
then I would be curious to read about it.

Good Luck!
Marco

Re: X11 desktops on buster without systemd

[Dan Ritter]

Greg Wooledge wrote: 
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:54:19PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > 6. apt install sysvinit-core elogind
> > 
> > Ideally, at this point nothing except systemd would be uninstalled. In
> > practice, currently, an awful lot of things that you might actually want
> > get uninstalled.
> 
> Like what?
> 
> wooledg:~$ apt -s install sysvinit-core elogind
> NOTE: This is only a simulation!
> [...]
> The following packages will be REMOVED:
>   colord libnss-systemd libpam-systemd policykit-1 systemd systemd-sysv
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>   elogind initscripts insserv libelogind0 startpar sysv-rc sysvinit-core
> 0 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 6 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
> [...]

Start-Date: 2019-08-27  11:57:30

Commandline: apt install sysvinit-core elogind  

Install: startpar:amd64 (0.61-1, automatic), insserv:amd64
(1.18.0-2, automatic), elogind:amd64 (239.3+20190131-1+debian1),
sysvinit-core:amd64 (2.93-8), initscripts:amd64 (2.93-8,
automatic), libelogind0:amd64 (239.3+20190131-1+debian1,
automatic), sysv-rc:amd64 (2.93-8, automatic)
Remove: gnome-color-manager:amd64 (3.30.0-2),
gnome-session:amd64 (3.30.1-2), gvfs-backends:amd64 (1.38.1-5),
gnome-control-center:amd64 (1:3.30.3-1), brasero:amd64
(3.12.2-5), chrome-gnome-shell:amd64 (10.1-5), rtkit:amd64
(0.11-6), gnome-software:amd64 (3.30.6-5),
gnome-settings-daemon:amd64 (3.30.2-3), plymouth-label:amd64
(0.9.4-1.1), light-locker:amd64 (1.8.0-3),
network-manager-gnome:amd64 (1.8.20-1.1), gnome-sushi:amd64
(3.30.0-2), gdm3:amd64 (3.30.2-3), iio-sensor-proxy:amd64
(2.4-2), network-manager:amd64 (1.14.6-2),
packagekit-tools:amd64 (1.1.12-5), gnome-tweak-tool:amd64
(3.30.2-1), gnome-disk-utility:amd64 (3.30.2-3),
gnome-tweaks:amd64 (3.30.2-1), gnome-music:amd64 (3.30.2-1),
udisks2:amd64 (2.8.1-4), gvfs-fuse:amd64 (1.38.1-5),
nautilus:amd64 (3.30.5-2), task-gnome-desktop:amd64 (3.53),
systemd-sysv:amd64 (241-5), libpam-systemd:amd64 (241-5),
packagekit:amd64 (1.1.12-5), systemd:amd64 (241-5),
gnome-core:amd64 (1:3.30+1), libnss-systemd:amd64 (241-5),
gnome:amd64 (1:3.30+1), gnome-shell-extensions:amd64 (3.30.1-1),
plymouth:amd64 (0.9.4-1.1), policykit-1:amd64 (0.105-25),
gvfs:amd64 (1.38.1-5), gnome-shell:amd64 (3.30.2-9),
dbus-user-session:amd64 (1.12.16-1),
nautilus-extension-brasero:amd64 (3.12.2-5), synaptic:amd64
(0.84.6), gstreamer1.0-packagekit:amd64 (1.1.12-5),
gvfs-daemons:amd64 (1.38.1-5), lightdm:amd64 (1.26.0-4),
colord:amd64 (1.4.3-4)
End-Date: 2019-08-27  11:59:02

Re: X11 desktops on buster without systemd

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:54:19PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 6. apt install sysvinit-core elogind
> 
> Ideally, at this point nothing except systemd would be uninstalled. In
> practice, currently, an awful lot of things that you might actually want
> get uninstalled.

Like what?

wooledg:~$ apt -s install sysvinit-core elogind
NOTE: This is only a simulation!
[...]
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  colord libnss-systemd libpam-systemd policykit-1 systemd systemd-sysv
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  elogind initscripts insserv libelogind0 startpar sysv-rc sysvinit-core
0 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 6 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
[...]

Re: X11/Thinkpad T430: partially drops input from USB devices after resume

[Joel Roth]

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:59:16AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:
 On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 01:05:58AM +, stefan.schwar...@gmx.net wrote:
 
  I am using my laptop (lenovo T430, debian testing)
  regularly in a docking station. The dock has a USB
  keyboard, USB mouse and monitor  permanently attached. The
  laptops suspends from time to time, and _after_ resuming
  X11 or some other system component  the input from USB
  mouse and keyboard to be dropped/ignored partially.
  Symptoms are that the cursor does not move with the mouse,
  however it will start moving again if I click any of the
  mouse buttons; or that the keyboard input is ignored until
  I hit some arbitrary keys very rapidly. The USB amnesia
  starts again if I leave the input device untouched for
  some seconds.  The issue will not occur for newly
  connected devices or if I reconnect mouse/keyboard. The
  dock is not the issue as I can reproduce the phenomenon
  with a USB mouse directly connected to the laptop. 
  
  I am looking for ways to correctly diagnose things to file
  a bug (against which package: xorg-input, kernel/driver,
  ...).
 
 I've had a similar problem with my T410, running sid. 
 I was losing the first few keystrokes when I begin typing on a USB
 keyboard. I didn't connect it with sleeping.

I resolved my (not OP) issue by adding the USB IDs of the mouse and
keyboard (from lsusb) to the /etc/laptop-mode/conf.d/runtime-pm.conf
AUTOSUSPEND_RUNTIME_DEVID_BLACKLIST variable.
 
 At the moment (typing on USB keyboard I plugged in to test)
 I don't see the problem.
 
 Linux version 3.16.0-4-amd64 (debian-ker...@lists.debian.org) (gcc version 
 4.8.3 (Debian 4.8.3-13) ) #1 SMP Debian 3.16.7-2 (2014-11-06)
 
 cheers,
 
 Joel
  
  dmesg shows on device attachment/boot, e.g. for a cordless USB mouse:
  [316267.291416] usb 3-1.2: new low-speed USB device number 7 using ehci-pci
  [316267.390581] usb 3-1.2: New USB device found, idVendor=046d, 
  idProduct=c521
  [316267.390588] usb 3-1.2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, 
  SerialNumber=0
  [316267.390591] usb 3-1.2: Product: USB Receiver
  [316267.390593] usb 3-1.2: Manufacturer: Logitech
  [316267.397463] input: Logitech USB Receiver as 
  /devices/pci:00/:00:1a.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.2/3-1.2:1.0/0003:046D:C521.002D/input/input60
  [316267.397850] hid-generic 0003:046D:C521.002D: input,hidraw0: USB HID 
  v1.11 Mouse [Logitech USB Receiver] on usb-:00:1a.0-1.2/input0
  [316267.405442] input: Logitech USB Receiver as 
  /devices/pci:00/:00:1a.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.2/3-1.2:1.1/0003:046D:C521.002E/input/input61
  [316267.406232] hid-generic 0003:046D:C521.002E: input,hiddev0,hidraw1: USB 
  HID v1.11 Device [Logitech USB Receiver] on usb-:00:1a.0-1.2/input1
  
  on wakeup (all USB related messages)
  [316278.048335] xhci_hcd :00:14.0: System wakeup disabled by ACPI
  [316278.048401] ehci-pci :00:1a.0: System wakeup disabled by ACPI
  [316278.048465] ehci-pci :00:1d.0: System wakeup disabled by ACPI
  [316278.048543] PM: noirq resume of devices complete after 15.665 msecs
  ...
  [316278.428114] usb 3-1.1: reset full-speed USB device number 3 using 
  ehci-pci
  [316278.592293] usb 3-1.6: reset high-speed USB device number 6 using 
  ehci-pci
  
  lsusb (after resume)
  sts@nbof08:~$ lsusb
  Bus 004 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
  Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
  Bus 003 Device 006: ID 04f2:b2da Chicony Electronics Co., Ltd 
  Bus 003 Device 005: ID 0a5c:21e6 Broadcom Corp. BCM20702 Bluetooth 4.0 
  [ThinkPad]
  Bus 003 Device 004: ID 147e:2020 Upek TouchChip Fingerprint Coprocessor 
  (WBF advanced mode)
  Bus 003 Device 007: ID 046d:c521 Logitech, Inc. Cordless Mouse Receiver
  Bus 003 Device 003: ID 17ef:1003 Lenovo Integrated Smart Card Reader
  Bus 003 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
  Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
  Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
  Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
  
  Xorg.0.log (info refering to device attachment, there is no info after 
  resume:
  ...
  [316188.752] (II) config/udev: Adding input device Logitech USB Receiver 
  (/dev/input/event14)
  [316188.752] (**) Logitech USB Receiver: Applying InputClass evdev pointer 
  catchall
  [316188.752] (II) Using input driver 'evdev' for 'Logitech USB Receiver'
  [316188.752] (**) Logitech USB Receiver: always reports core events
  [316188.752] (**) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Device: /dev/input/event14
  [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Vendor 0x46d Product 0xc521
  [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found 20 mouse buttons
  [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found scroll wheel(s)
  [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found relative axes
  [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found x and y relative axes
  [316188.752] (II) 

Re: X11/Thinkpad T430: partially drops input from USB devices after resume

[Joel Roth]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 01:05:58AM +, stefan.schwar...@gmx.net wrote:

 I am using my laptop (lenovo T430, debian testing)
 regularly in a docking station. The dock has a USB
 keyboard, USB mouse and monitor  permanently attached. The
 laptops suspends from time to time, and _after_ resuming
 X11 or some other system component  the input from USB
 mouse and keyboard to be dropped/ignored partially.
 Symptoms are that the cursor does not move with the mouse,
 however it will start moving again if I click any of the
 mouse buttons; or that the keyboard input is ignored until
 I hit some arbitrary keys very rapidly. The USB amnesia
 starts again if I leave the input device untouched for
 some seconds.  The issue will not occur for newly
 connected devices or if I reconnect mouse/keyboard. The
 dock is not the issue as I can reproduce the phenomenon
 with a USB mouse directly connected to the laptop. 
 
 I am looking for ways to correctly diagnose things to file
 a bug (against which package: xorg-input, kernel/driver,
 ...).

I've had a similar problem with my T410, running sid. 
I was losing the first few keystrokes when I begin typing on a USB
keyboard. I didn't connect it with sleeping.

At the moment (typing on USB keyboard I plugged in to test)
I don't see the problem.

Linux version 3.16.0-4-amd64 (debian-ker...@lists.debian.org) (gcc version 
4.8.3 (Debian 4.8.3-13) ) #1 SMP Debian 3.16.7-2 (2014-11-06)

cheers,

Joel
 
 dmesg shows on device attachment/boot, e.g. for a cordless USB mouse:
 [316267.291416] usb 3-1.2: new low-speed USB device number 7 using ehci-pci
 [316267.390581] usb 3-1.2: New USB device found, idVendor=046d, idProduct=c521
 [316267.390588] usb 3-1.2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, 
 SerialNumber=0
 [316267.390591] usb 3-1.2: Product: USB Receiver
 [316267.390593] usb 3-1.2: Manufacturer: Logitech
 [316267.397463] input: Logitech USB Receiver as 
 /devices/pci:00/:00:1a.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.2/3-1.2:1.0/0003:046D:C521.002D/input/input60
 [316267.397850] hid-generic 0003:046D:C521.002D: input,hidraw0: USB HID v1.11 
 Mouse [Logitech USB Receiver] on usb-:00:1a.0-1.2/input0
 [316267.405442] input: Logitech USB Receiver as 
 /devices/pci:00/:00:1a.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.2/3-1.2:1.1/0003:046D:C521.002E/input/input61
 [316267.406232] hid-generic 0003:046D:C521.002E: input,hiddev0,hidraw1: USB 
 HID v1.11 Device [Logitech USB Receiver] on usb-:00:1a.0-1.2/input1
 
 on wakeup (all USB related messages)
 [316278.048335] xhci_hcd :00:14.0: System wakeup disabled by ACPI
 [316278.048401] ehci-pci :00:1a.0: System wakeup disabled by ACPI
 [316278.048465] ehci-pci :00:1d.0: System wakeup disabled by ACPI
 [316278.048543] PM: noirq resume of devices complete after 15.665 msecs
 ...
 [316278.428114] usb 3-1.1: reset full-speed USB device number 3 using ehci-pci
 [316278.592293] usb 3-1.6: reset high-speed USB device number 6 using ehci-pci
 
 lsusb (after resume)
 sts@nbof08:~$ lsusb
 Bus 004 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
 Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
 Bus 003 Device 006: ID 04f2:b2da Chicony Electronics Co., Ltd 
 Bus 003 Device 005: ID 0a5c:21e6 Broadcom Corp. BCM20702 Bluetooth 4.0 
 [ThinkPad]
 Bus 003 Device 004: ID 147e:2020 Upek TouchChip Fingerprint Coprocessor (WBF 
 advanced mode)
 Bus 003 Device 007: ID 046d:c521 Logitech, Inc. Cordless Mouse Receiver
 Bus 003 Device 003: ID 17ef:1003 Lenovo Integrated Smart Card Reader
 Bus 003 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
 Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
 Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
 Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
 
 Xorg.0.log (info refering to device attachment, there is no info after resume:
 ...
 [316188.752] (II) config/udev: Adding input device Logitech USB Receiver 
 (/dev/input/event14)
 [316188.752] (**) Logitech USB Receiver: Applying InputClass evdev pointer 
 catchall
 [316188.752] (II) Using input driver 'evdev' for 'Logitech USB Receiver'
 [316188.752] (**) Logitech USB Receiver: always reports core events
 [316188.752] (**) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Device: /dev/input/event14
 [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Vendor 0x46d Product 0xc521
 [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found 20 mouse buttons
 [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found scroll wheel(s)
 [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found relative axes
 [316188.752] (--) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Found x and y relative axes
 [316188.752] (II) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Configuring as mouse
 [316188.752] (II) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: Adding scrollwheel support
 [316188.752] (**) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: YAxisMapping: buttons 4 and 5
 [316188.752] (**) evdev: Logitech USB Receiver: EmulateWheelButton: 4, 
 EmulateWheelInertia: 10, EmulateWheelTimeout: 200
 [316188.752] 

Re: X11/Thinkpad T430: partially drops input from USB devices after resume

[Peter Palfrader]

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015, stefan.schwar...@gmx.net wrote:

 I am using my laptop (lenovo T430, debian testing) regularly in a docking 
 station. The dock has a USB keyboard, USB mouse and monitor 
 permanently attached. The laptops suspends from time to time, and _after_ 
 resuming X11 or some other system component 
 the input from USB mouse and keyboard to be dropped/ignored partially. 
 Symptoms are that the cursor does not move with 
 the mouse, however it will start moving again if I click any of the mouse 
 buttons; or that the keyboard input is ignored until 
 I hit some arbitrary keys very rapidly. The USB amnesia starts again if I 
 leave the input device untouched for some seconds.
 The issue will not occur for newly connected devices or if I reconnect 
 mouse/keyboard. The dock is not the issue as I can 
 reproduce the phenomenon with a USB mouse directly connected to the laptop. 

 I have no clue what could be going on...

Probably a USB autosuspend issue.  Do you have laptop-mode-tools
installed?  If yes, can you get rid of it and re-test?

-- 
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  Peter Palfrader  | : :' :  The  universal
 http://www.palfrader.org/ | `. `'  Operating System
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Re: x11 intel graphics card conf

[Filipe Freire]

solved thanks.

need linux-image-3.2.0-0.bpo.2-amd64 from normal repository and X from
backports.

Filipe

On 29/05/2012, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Ma, 29 mai 12, 13:12:19, Filipe Freire wrote:
 Dear All!

 I am running debian squeeze on a PC with intel i5 and graphics card:
 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Sandy Bridge Integrated
 Graphics Controller (rev 09)

 You need the kernel and X from backports. This was discussed on
 debian-backports list, you can search the archives if you need more
 info.

 Kind regards,
 Andrei
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Re: x11 graphics card conf

[Benedict Verheyen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 29/05/2012 12:35, Filipe Freire wrote:
 Dear All!
 
 I am running debian squeeze on a PC with intel i5 and graphics card:
 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Sandy Bridge Integrated
 Graphics Controller (rev 09)
 
 x11 freezes if I go to console and back to x11 or when we switch
 users.  Need a quick fix please.
 
 With the new debian there is no xorg.conf and could not find a
 solution with the info I found around.
 
 Any help with be very welcome.
 
 Thank you in advance,
 Filipe
 
 

Filipe,

see here for more info:
http://wiki.debian.org/Xorg

An excerpt:

...

What if I do not have an xorg config file?

If xorg.conf is missing for some reason, Xorg will probe your hardware on every 
startup.
Though this works fine in most cases, some settings remain inaccessible.
To create a starting point for customization, do the following:

Switch to a console as root (not a terminal emulator in X), then run:

/etc/init.d/gdm stop
/etc/init.d/gdm3 stop
/etc/init.d/kdm stop
/etc/init.d/xdm stop
cd /etc/X11/
Xorg -configure

Alternatively, reboot the machine in single user mode, then run:

cd /etc/X11/
Xorg -configure

Follow the on-screen instructions. This should give you something to work with.

Run X

After installation run:

startx

or as root run:

service gdm start

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Benedict


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Re: x11 intel graphics card conf

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 29 mai 12, 13:12:19, Filipe Freire wrote:
 Dear All!
 
 I am running debian squeeze on a PC with intel i5 and graphics card:
 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Sandy Bridge Integrated
 Graphics Controller (rev 09)

You need the kernel and X from backports. This was discussed on 
debian-backports list, you can search the archives if you need more 
info.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Description: Digital signature

Re: X11 error at login: no screens found

[Sven Joachim]

On 2010-06-28 14:07 +0200, Charles Blair wrote:

I recently upgraded from etch to lenny, and most features
 of the system seemed to be working.

After a day or two with the new system, I am getting a
 character-based screen to log in, instead of the X display.

Did X work previously?

 (EE) Failed to load module nv (module does not exist, 0)
 (EE) No drivers available.

Please run debsums xserver-xorg-video-nv.

Sven


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Re: X11 error at login: no screens found

[Kelly Clowers]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 05:07, Charles Blair c-bl...@illinois.edu wrote:
   I recently upgraded from etch to lenny, and most features
 of the system seemed to be working.

   After a day or two with the new system, I am getting a
 character-based screen to log in, instead of the X display.

   Below, I give the output from typing startx, and the
 xorg.conf file.

It can't find the nv drivers, check that it is installed
(package xserver-xorg-video-nv).

And just to be modern and up-to-date, after you have that
sorted out, you could try moving xorg.conf to xorg.conf.old
and see if everything works that way (good chance it will).
If you do need an xorg.conf, it will probably be just one
section or so.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: X11 error at login: no screens found

[Andrei Popescu]

On Lu, 28 iun 10, 07:07:44, Charles Blair wrote:
I recently upgraded from etch to lenny, and most features
 of the system seemed to be working.
 
After a day or two with the new system, I am getting a
 character-based screen to log in, instead of the X display.
 
Below, I give the output from typing startx, and the
 xorg.conf file.
 
 *  Output from startx  **
 
 Script started on Mon 28 Jun 2010 06:30:15 AM CDT
 localhost:/home/ceblair# startx
 
 X Window System Version 7.1.1
 Release Date: 12 May 2006
 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0, Release 7.1.1
 Build Operating System: UNKNOWN 
 Current Operating System: Linux localhost 2.6.26-2-486 #1 Sat Dec 26 08:37:39 
 UTC 2009 i686
 Build Date: 29 May 2008
 Module Loader present
 Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
 (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
 (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
 (==) Log file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log, Time: Mon Jun 28 06:30:21 2010
 (==) Using config file: /etc/X11/xorg.conf
 
 (EE) Failed to load module nv (module does not exist, 0)
 (EE) No drivers available.
 
X can't find the driver. Please post the output of

dpkg -l xserver-xorg-video-nv

 Fatal server error:
 no screens found
 
 waiting for X server to begin accepting connections 
 giving up.

Probably not related, but your xorg.conf still contains a lot of 
obsolete stuff

    The file /etc/X11/xorg.conf **
 
 Section Files
 FontPath/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc
 FontPath/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc
 FontPath/usr/share/fonts/X11/cyrillic
 FontPath/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic
 FontPath/usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi/:unscaled
 FontPath/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/:unscaled
 FontPath/usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi/:unscaled
 FontPath/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/:unscaled
 FontPath/usr/share/fonts/X11/Type1
 FontPath/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1
 FontPath/usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi
 FontPath/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi
 FontPath/usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi
 FontPath/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi
 # path to defoma fonts
 FontPath/var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType
 EndSection

You can delete the entire Files section

 Section Module
 Loadi2c
 Loadbitmap
 Loadddc
 Loaddri
 Loadextmod
 Loadfreetype
 Loadglx
 Loadint10
 Loadvbe
 EndSection

same with the Module

 Section InputDevice
 Identifier  Generic Keyboard
 Driver  kbd
 Option  CoreKeyboard
 Option  XkbRules  xorg
 Option  XkbModel  pc104
 Option  XkbLayout us
 EndSection
 
 Section InputDevice
 Identifier  Configured Mouse
 Driver  mouse
 Option  CorePointer
 Option  Device/dev/input/mice
 Option  Protocol  ImPS/2
 Option  Emulate3Buttons   true
 EndSection
 
 Section Device
 Identifier  nVidia Corporation C51 [GeForce 6150 LE]
 Driver  nv
 BusID   PCI:0:5:0
 EndSection
 
 Section Monitor
 Identifier  NXM76LCD
 Option  DPMS
 EndSection
 
 Section Screen
 Identifier  Default Screen
 Device  nVidia Corporation C51 [GeForce 6150 LE]
 Monitor NXM76LCD
 DefaultDepth24
 SubSection Display
 Depth   1
 Modes   1280x1024 1152x864 1024x768 832x624 
 800x600 720x400 640x480
 EndSubSection
 SubSection Display
 Depth   4
 Modes   1280x1024 1152x864 1024x768 832x624 
 800x600 720x400 640x480
 EndSubSection
 SubSection Display
 Depth   8
 Modes   1280x1024 1152x864 1024x768 832x624 
 800x600 720x400 640x480
 EndSubSection
 SubSection Display
 Depth   15
 Modes   1280x1024 1152x864 1024x768 832x624 
 800x600 720x400 640x480
 EndSubSection
 SubSection Display
 Depth   16
 Modes   1280x1024 1152x864 1024x768 832x624 
 800x600 720x400 640x480
 EndSubSection
 SubSection Display
 Depth   24
 Modes   1280x1024 1152x864 1024x768 832x624 
 800x600 720x400 640x480
 EndSubSection
 EndSection

This can be trimmed to:

Section Screen
Identifier  Default Screen
Device  

Re: X11 just froze, and /var/log/syslog (dmesg)'s output seems to mean something

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 18 May 2010 18:08:24 +0200, Merciadri Luca wrote:

 I realized that my computer (this one, Debian Lenny, w. k.
 2.6.26-2-686-bigmem) was frozen. I tried escaping from the screensaver,
 but nothing worked, except launching another tty, and restarting gdm.
 Here is the interesting output I obtained by looking at /var/log/syslog
 and dmesg:
 
 ==
 [24892.623421] atkbd.c: Unknown key pressed (translated set 2, code 0xbb
 on isa0060/serio0).

(...)

That seems to be unrelated with a X freeze. Looks like a keyboard key 
mapping error but nothing serious.

Just review your /var/log/Xorg.0.log. If X crashed there must something 
there :-?

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: X11 just froze, and /var/log/syslog (dmesg)'s output seems to mean something

[Merciadri Luca]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Camaleón noela...@gmail.com writes:

 On Tue, 18 May 2010 18:08:24 +0200, Merciadri Luca wrote:

 I realized that my computer (this one, Debian Lenny, w. k.
 2.6.26-2-686-bigmem) was frozen. I tried escaping from the screensaver,
 but nothing worked, except launching another tty, and restarting gdm.
 Here is the interesting output I obtained by looking at /var/log/syslog
 and dmesg:
 
 ==
 [24892.623421] atkbd.c: Unknown key pressed (translated set 2, code 0xbb
 on isa0060/serio0).

 (...)

 That seems to be unrelated with a X freeze. Looks like a keyboard key 
 mapping error but nothing serious.

 Just review your /var/log/Xorg.0.log. If X crashed there must something 
 there :-?
Nothing really interesting there. Just:

==
AUDIT: Tue May 18 18:01:04 2010: 3716 X: client 33 rejected from local host 
(uid 0)
  Auth name: MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 ID: -1
==
but 18:01:24 seems to be when I asked to restart gdm.

Note that I do not think that X crashed entirely. I just mean that the
screen was looking like frozen, but screensaver was still
moving... slowly, or sometimes really slowly.
- -- 
Merciadri Luca
See http://www.student.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~merciadri/
- -- 

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Re: X11 just froze, and /var/log/syslog (dmesg)'s output seems to mean something

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 18 May 2010 20:08:02 +0200, Merciadri Luca wrote:

 Camaleón writes:

 Just review your /var/log/Xorg.0.log. If X crashed there must
 something there :-?
 Nothing really interesting there. Just:
 
 ==
 AUDIT: Tue May 18 18:01:04 2010: 3716 X: client 33 rejected from local
 host (uid 0)
   Auth name: MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 ID: -1
 ==
 but 18:01:24 seems to be when I asked to restart gdm.

Nothing more in the rest of the /var/log/Xorg.x.log files?
 
 Note that I do not think that X crashed entirely. I just mean that the
 screen was looking like frozen, but screensaver was still moving...
 slowly, or sometimes really slowly.

Next time it happens, go to a tty and type top to list the processes in 
use. Sort the table by CPU cycles and/or memory use. The slowness could 
be caused by a rampant program consuming a lot of resources.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: X11 just froze, and /var/log/syslog (dmesg)'s output seems to mean something

[Merciadri Luca]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Camaleón noela...@gmail.com writes:

 On Tue, 18 May 2010 20:08:02 +0200, Merciadri Luca wrote:

 Camaleón writes:

 Just review your /var/log/Xorg.0.log. If X crashed there must
 something there :-?
 Nothing really interesting there. Just:
 
 ==
 AUDIT: Tue May 18 18:01:04 2010: 3716 X: client 33 rejected from local
 host (uid 0)
   Auth name: MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 ID: -1
 ==
 but 18:01:24 seems to be when I asked to restart gdm.

 Nothing more in the rest of the /var/log/Xorg.x.log files?
No. Weird.


 Note that I do not think that X crashed entirely. I just mean that the
 screen was looking like frozen, but screensaver was still moving...
 slowly, or sometimes really slowly.

 Next time it happens, go to a tty and type top to list the processes in 
 use. Sort the table by CPU cycles and/or memory use. The slowness could 
 be caused by a rampant program consuming a lot of resources.
Okay. Thanks!
- -- 
Merciadri Luca
See http://www.student.montefiore.ulg.ac.be/~merciadri/
- -- 

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Re: x11 ? xorg ? je suis planté

[David DUPONT]

en bidouillant XRandr tu as du faire sauter la configuration de ton 
fichier xorg.conf.
Regarde dans /etc/X11/ tu dois avoir un fichier xorg.conf.backup ou un 
truc dans le genre :) fait un

# mv xorg.conf.backup xorg.conf
Et redémarre ton système. Normalement il devrait relancer gdm ou kdm ou 
autre sans problème. Il ne te resterat plus qu'après à réinstaller tes 
pilotes NVidia


Le 12.11.2009 16:26, suchod a écrit :

Bonjour a toutes et a tous
j'utilise lenny et tout allait très bien, jusqu'au moment ou j'ai voulu
bidouiller avec xrandr...quand j'ai voulu ré-allumer mon ordi il
etait en mode texte.   J'ai donc fait startx et voici ce qu'il m'a 
répondu:


log file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log time:thu nov 12 15:35:58 2009
using config file /ets/X11/xorg.conf
failed to load module type1 (module does not exist, 0)
failed to load module nvidia (module does not exist, 0)
no drivers available 

j'ai bien essayé de tourner un peu en rond,  malheureusement mes
compétences sont trop courtes pour que je puisse résoudre cette 
difficulté.


merci par avance pour toute idée, suggestions...
cordialement
jerome




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Re: x11 ? xorg ? je suis planté

[David DUPONT]

Désolé pour le flood, mais préfère la commande cp à la place de mv
simplement au cas ou : )
La syntax est la même sudo cp xorg.conf.backup xorg.conf
Tu dois être dans le dossier /etc/X11 grâce à la commande cd /etc/X11


Le 12.11.2009 16:26, suchod a écrit :

Bonjour a toutes et a tous
j'utilise lenny et tout allait très bien, jusqu'au moment ou j'ai voulu
bidouiller avec xrandr...quand j'ai voulu ré-allumer mon ordi il
etait en mode texte.   J'ai donc fait startx et voici ce qu'il m'a 
répondu:


log file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log time:thu nov 12 15:35:58 2009
using config file /ets/X11/xorg.conf
failed to load module type1 (module does not exist, 0)
failed to load module nvidia (module does not exist, 0)
no drivers available 

j'ai bien essayé de tourner un peu en rond,  malheureusement mes
compétences sont trop courtes pour que je puisse résoudre cette 
difficulté.


merci par avance pour toute idée, suggestions...
cordialement
jerome




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Re: x11 ? xorg ? je suis planté

[Guy Roussin]

Bonsoir,

Le log semble dire que tu as toujours bien un fichier /etc/X11/xorg.conf
et que celui ci fait référence au driver nvidia qui semble ne plus être
présent sur ton PC.

Pour réinstaller le driver proprio nvidia, il faut,
en tant que root taper la commande suivante :

aptitude install nvidia-kernel-`uname -r`

Maintenant, il est possible d'installer ce driver de beaucoup
de façons. Il faudrait que tu nous dises comment tu as installé
le driver nvidia ...

Guy

suchod a écrit :

Bonjour a toutes et a tous
j'utilise lenny et tout allait très bien, jusqu'au moment ou j'ai voulu
bidouiller avec xrandr...quand j'ai voulu ré-allumer mon ordi il
etait en mode texte.   J'ai donc fait startx et voici ce qu'il m'a 
répondu:


log file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log time:thu nov 12 15:35:58 2009
using config file /ets/X11/xorg.conf
failed to load module type1 (module does not exist, 0)
failed to load module nvidia (module does not exist, 0)
no drivers available 

j'ai bien essayé de tourner un peu en rond,  malheureusement mes
compétences sont trop courtes pour que je puisse résoudre cette 
difficulté.


merci par avance pour toute idée, suggestions...
cordialement
jerome




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Re: x11 ? xorg ? je suis planté

[Jean-Yves F. Barbier]

suchod a écrit :
 j'utilise lenny et tout allait très bien, jusqu'au moment ou j'ai voulu
 bidouiller avec xrandr...quand j'ai voulu ré-allumer mon ordi il

Commence par un ficher xorg.conf vide, puis ajoute une à une les lignes
voulues, en commençant par le clavier fr.
Ce fichier ne doit plus contenir que l'essentiel (pas la peine d'y noter
tes fréquences monitor s'il est capable de discuter avec la carte graphique
et de lui indiquer cela, par exemple.)


Et pour faire écho à Pascal Hambourg: arrêtez de coter n'importe quoi
n'importe comment: vous-êtes sur une ML, pas dans un thread privé; celui
qui veut suivre n'a qu'à relire le thread complet (pour ceux qui n'ont
pas compris: ne recopiez pas intégralement le post auquel vous répondez,
alors que 2 lignes suffisent.)
Sans compter que les espaces Debian sont alloués *gracieusement* et que 
les remplir de daube, c'est autant qu'il n'y aura ni pour les autres,
ni pour d'autres choses...

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Re: X11 include files..

[Ansgar Burchardt]

Hi,

I Rattan ratt...@cps.cmich.edu writes:

 what debian package may include these header files?

You can search which packages include a given file using apt-file.

Regards,
Ansgar



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Re: X11 include files..

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-08-17 12:57, I Rattan wrote:


I am running Sidux and trying to compile plan9port.
I see the error messages:

...
x11-inc.h:13:22: error: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or directory
x11-inc.h:14:23: error: X11/Xatom.h: No such file or directory
x11-inc.h:15:23: error: X11/Xutil.h: No such file or directory
x11-inc.h:16:24: error: X11/keysym.h: No such file or directory
x11-inc.h:17:28: error: X11/IntrinsicP.h: No such file or directory
x11-inc.h:18:28: error: X11/StringDefs.h: No such file or directory
...

what debian package may include these header files?


apt-file search is what you use here.

$ apt-file search X11/Xlib.h
ivtools-dev: /usr/include/IV-X11/Xlib.h
libghc6-x11-dev: 
/usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc6/lib/X11-1.4.5/ghc-6.10.3/Graphics/X11/Xlib.hi

libhugs-x11-bundled: /usr/lib/hugs/packages/X11/Graphics/X11/Xlib.hs
libroot5.18: /usr/lib/root/5.18/cint/include/X11/Xlib.h
libx11-dev: /usr/include/X11/Xlib.h
tendra: /usr/lib/TenDRA/lib/include/x5/lib.api/X11/Xlib.h

$ apt-file search X11/Xatom.h
tendra: /usr/lib/TenDRA/lib/include/x5/lib.api/X11/Xatom.h
x11proto-core-dev: /usr/include/X11/Xatom.h

$ apt-file search X11/Xutil.h
ivtools-dev: /usr/include/IV-X11/Xutil.h
libroot5.18: /usr/lib/root/5.18/cint/include/X11/Xutil.h
libx11-dev: /usr/include/X11/Xutil.h
tendra: /usr/lib/TenDRA/lib/include/x5/lib.api/X11/Xutil.h

etc, etc, etc.

So, these are what you need to install:

# apt-get install libx11-dev x11proto-core-dev libxt-dev

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Re: X11 error

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-08-13 12:51, I Rattan wrote:


I see the folowing error message repeatedly whenever I rey to use
mplayer:
...
X11 error: BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)
X11 error: BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)1.1% 8 0
...

Any pointers/


How much free memory on your system?

*Maybe* more importantly, how much memory on your video card?

Lastly, have you tried vlc?

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Re: X11 error

[Andrew Sackville-West]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 01:11:43PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 2009-08-13 12:51, I Rattan wrote:

 I see the folowing error message repeatedly whenever I rey to use
 mplayer:
 ...
 X11 error: BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)
 X11 error: BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)1.1% 8 0
 ...

 Any pointers/

 How much free memory on your system?

 *Maybe* more importantly, how much memory on your video card?

 Lastly, have you tried vlc?

or try different outputs with the -vo option. it maybe that one works
where another doesn't.

A


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Andrei Popescu]

On Thu,16.Jul.09, 17:30:00, Dirk wrote:
 
 I start to wonder how much words and effort the actual package
 maintainers would use to avoid turning a dependency back into a
 recommendation when the users already have such a mindset.

Do you volunteer on triaging bugs like:

,[ fictious bug report ]
|  Help, my keyboard and mouse are not working!!!
|
|  You don't have 'hal' installed.
|
|  'hal' what is that?
|
|  Did you disable 'recommends'?
|
| Recommends? Of course!!! I read on some forum that I can save some
| space if I disable recommends
`

In fact, you could start helping with bug triage anyway.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Andrei Popescu]

On Thu,16.Jul.09, 18:29:31, Dirk wrote:
 
 I can imagine making Linux safer to use for beginners by having a
 daemon in the background running that overwrites changed config
 files with default values to prevent clueless people from trashing
 their system.
 
 That daemon could be enforced as a dependency of the Linux Standard
 Base to ensure less questions like Help! My Linux doesn't work
 anymore. in this mailing list.

Please read again what you are proposing. Your ideea is *much worse* 
than hal. Debian considers it a  serious (as in release critical) bug 
to change configuration files without user's approval, and for good 
reasons.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
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(Albert Einstein)


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Andrei Popescu]

On Thu,16.Jul.09, 07:13:08, Nate Bargmann wrote:
 * Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com [2009 Jul 16 06:05 -0500]:
 
   does seem as though there is a strong sentiment against HAL from
   several users.  You might contact the Xorg developers and ask nicely
   for them to remove the dependency.
  
  I don't think this is such a good idea. The Debian X Strike Force (Xorg 
  maintainers) already received a lot of heat over this. Providing an 
  alternative would be better. Anyway, see #515214.
 
 Note, I specifically mentioned the Xorg developers--Free Desktop
 Project--not the X Strike Force folks.  So, yes, my suggestion of who
 to discuss this with *is* a good idea.

Sorry, I misread what you wrote. Contacting the Xorg devs could be 
useful, but I'd understand if the answer would be the same: provide an 
alternative.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
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(Albert Einstein)


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Andrei Popescu]

On Thu,16.Jul.09, 18:19:54, Dirk wrote:
 
 You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?
 
 To downgrade or to even switch whole distributions because of a
 single stubborn package maintainer?
 
 How about that package maintainer just turns a dependency back into
 a recommendation to make /everyone/ happy? (Did I suggest that
 before?)

The default mutt uses gdbm for the header cache, but I prefer 
tokyocabinet:

# apt-get build-dep mutt
# aptitude install libtokyocabinet-dev build-essential
$ cd ~/src
$ apt-get source mutt
$ cd mutt-1.5.20
$ patch -p0  ../patches/mutt_enable_tokyocabinet.diff
$ dch -l +tokyocabinet
(write my changelog entry)
$ dpkg-buildpackage -b
# dpkg -i ~amp/src/mutt_1.5.20-2+tokyocabinet1_amd64.deb

Doesn't seem too difficult to me.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
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(Albert Einstein)


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Nate Bargmann]

* Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com [2009 Jul 18 03:22 -0500]:
 On Thu,16.Jul.09, 07:13:08, Nate Bargmann wrote:
  * Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com [2009 Jul 16 06:05 -0500]:
  
does seem as though there is a strong sentiment against HAL from
several users.  You might contact the Xorg developers and ask nicely
for them to remove the dependency.
   
   I don't think this is such a good idea. The Debian X Strike Force (Xorg 
   maintainers) already received a lot of heat over this. Providing an 
   alternative would be better. Anyway, see #515214.
  
  Note, I specifically mentioned the Xorg developers--Free Desktop
  Project--not the X Strike Force folks.  So, yes, my suggestion of who
  to discuss this with *is* a good idea.
 
 Sorry, I misread what you wrote. Contacting the Xorg devs could be 
 useful, but I'd understand if the answer would be the same: provide an 
 alternative.

Indeed, and it puts the discussion in the correct place.  Here and/or
the Debian developers lists(s) are not the correct places, IMHO.

- Nate 

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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Paul E Condon]

On 2009-07-18_06:54:21, Nate Bargmann wrote:
 * Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com [2009 Jul 18 03:22 -0500]:
  On Thu,16.Jul.09, 07:13:08, Nate Bargmann wrote:
   * Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com [2009 Jul 16 06:05 -0500]:
   
 does seem as though there is a strong sentiment against HAL from
 several users.  You might contact the Xorg developers and ask nicely
 for them to remove the dependency.

I don't think this is such a good idea. The Debian X Strike Force (Xorg 
maintainers) already received a lot of heat over this. Providing an 
alternative would be better. Anyway, see #515214.
   
   Note, I specifically mentioned the Xorg developers--Free Desktop
   Project--not the X Strike Force folks.  So, yes, my suggestion of who
   to discuss this with *is* a good idea.
  
  Sorry, I misread what you wrote. Contacting the Xorg devs could be 
  useful, but I'd understand if the answer would be the same: provide an 
  alternative.
 
 Indeed, and it puts the discussion in the correct place.  Here and/or
 the Debian developers lists(s) are not the correct places, IMHO.

It seems to me that Debian already provides a way to deal with
this. OP can download and install various Debian packaging tools and
repackage the offending official packages to his liking, and use them
locally without all this traffic on this list. 

IMO, there is no problem with the experts here offering technical
suggestions in support of really misguided personal projects.

I wonder how many other issues with Debian by how many other users
with special concerns are already being handled this way. Perhaps some
of these other users with their other concerns might contribute
thoughts on their experience going this route.

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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Qui, 16 Jul 2009, Alex Samad wrote:

I am all for convenience, but I am also for the right to choose, sounds
like HAL is not really needed for X, so it should be a recommends and
not a depends.


I've read in this thread that X can work without HAL, but is it a  
run-time choice or a compile-time choice? If it must be compiled  
with/without HAL than it's not possible to make HAL a recommends. Only  
if X was compiled without (in this case the Recommends is pointless),  
but then whose who would like the features would not be able to use  
them.



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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Miles Bader]

Alex Samad a...@samad.com.au writes:
 I don't understand what you mean about mono.  I don't think that I have
 any mono stuff on my system, and IIUC, Debian won't install it unless

 isn't the new gnome package going to bring in mono as a default 

The gnome meta-package has depends: tomboy | gnote, where gnote is
the C++ port of tomboy.

Since tomboy is listed first, I guess that's what it will drag in unless
you specifically choose gnote.

-Miles

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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Jochen Schulz]

Alex Samad:
 On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 06:38:06PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
 
 I don't understand what you mean about mono.  I don't think that I have
 any mono stuff on my system, and IIUC, Debian won't install it unless
 
 isn't the new gnome package going to bring in mono as a default 

Only if you select to install Gnome on installation. And that's not
exactly an option for people who prefer nuts and bolts approaches
anyway.

J.
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Anthony Campbell]

On 15 Jul 2009, Asumu Takikawa wrote:
 I had this same problem and using the following (in an .xsession in my case)
 solved the problem:
 
 setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp
 
 Cheers,
 Asumu Takikawa
 

I'm using this as well and it works. I have it in .xinitrc. The only
thing is that I also have some xmodmap commands and the sequence seems
to be important for everything to work together. My .xinitrc:


setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp
/usr/bin/xmodmap -e clear Lock
/usr/bin/xmodmap -e keycode 108 = Alt_L
/usr/bin/xmodmap -e keycode 66 = Insert
xset s 1200
xset -b
xsetroot -solid darkorchid
exec icewm-session-experimental



Anthony

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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Andrei Popescu]

On Wed,15.Jul.09, 17:55:49, Nate Bargmann wrote:
 
 I actually like HAL as it has relieved me of a great deal of tedium.  
 That said, I'm sure there are corner cases where it can be a pain.

http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/InputHotplugGuide has some 
explanation of why hal is needed.

It
 does seem as though there is a strong sentiment against HAL from
 several users.  You might contact the Xorg developers and ask nicely
 for them to remove the dependency.

I don't think this is such a good idea. The Debian X Strike Force (Xorg 
maintainers) already received a lot of heat over this. Providing an 
alternative would be better. Anyway, see #515214.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
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(Albert Einstein)


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Andrei Popescu wrote:

On Wed,15.Jul.09, 17:55:49, Nate Bargmann wrote:
I actually like HAL as it has relieved me of a great deal of tedium.  
That said, I'm sure there are corner cases where it can be a pain.


http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/InputHotplugGuide has some 
explanation of why hal is needed.


Until now, HAL wasn't and will never be needed by me and many others. It 
is enforced per dependency now, but not needed.


The absence of stuff like HAL was what made me switch from Windows to 
Linux in the first place.


Why don't people, who like it, use the real Windows instead of turning 
Linux into it and forcing advanced users down to their level?



   It
does seem as though there is a strong sentiment against HAL from
several users.  You might contact the Xorg developers and ask nicely
for them to remove the dependency.


I don't think this is such a good idea. The Debian X Strike Force (Xorg 
maintainers) already received a lot of heat over this. Providing an 
alternative would be better. Anyway, see #515214.


Regards,
Andrei


Yes, an alternative would be to remove the dependency and make the HAL 
package optional again.



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Thierry Chatelet]

On Thursday 16 July 2009 12:50:22 Dirk wrote:

 Why don't people, who like it, use the real Windows instead of turning
 Linux into it and forcing advanced users down to their level?


 Dirk

What level are you taking about? This will look quiet insulting to many people 
not only using debian to the best of their knowlegde, but also to Windows 
users, who dont need to be treated as such, they already suffer of having to 
use it.
Thierry


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Thierry Chatelet wrote:

On Thursday 16 July 2009 12:50:22 Dirk wrote:


Why don't people, who like it, use the real Windows instead of turning
Linux into it and forcing advanced users down to their level?


Dirk


What level are you taking about? This will look quiet insulting to many people 
not only using debian to the best of their knowlegde, but also to Windows 
users, who dont need to be treated as such, they already suffer of having to 
use it.

Thierry




Awww... what about the feelings of people who, since months now, want 
HAL to be reduced to a option again and who get ignored for no reason?



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Nate Bargmann]

* Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com [2009 Jul 16 06:05 -0500]:

  does seem as though there is a strong sentiment against HAL from
  several users.  You might contact the Xorg developers and ask nicely
  for them to remove the dependency.
 
 I don't think this is such a good idea. The Debian X Strike Force (Xorg 
 maintainers) already received a lot of heat over this. Providing an 
 alternative would be better. Anyway, see #515214.

Note, I specifically mentioned the Xorg developers--Free Desktop
Project--not the X Strike Force folks.  So, yes, my suggestion of who
to discuss this with *is* a good idea.

- Nate 

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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dirk noi...@gmx.net [2009 Jul 16 07:07 -0500]:
 Thierry Chatelet wrote:
 On Thursday 16 July 2009 12:50:22 Dirk wrote:
 
 Why don't people, who like it, use the real Windows instead of turning
 Linux into it and forcing advanced users down to their level?
 
 
 Dirk
 
 What level are you taking about? This will look quiet insulting to
 many people not only using debian to the best of their knowlegde,
 but also to Windows users, who dont need to be treated as such,
 they already suffer of having to use it.
 Thierry
 
 
 
 Awww... what about the feelings of people who, since months now,
 want HAL to be reduced to a option again and who get ignored for no
 reason?

Since you're so advanced, it should be little trouble for you to roll
an alternative package that doesn't have the HAL dependency.  This
little rant of yours seems to have little basis in logic.  As near as I
can tell the Linux HAL is much different and far more useful than
whatever MS Windows does.

You would have much more credibility in this thread if you provided
solid technical reasons why HAL is bad rather than stomping your feet
while saying I don't like it!  Please provide a technical reason why
HAL is unacceptable.

- Nate 

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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

You would have much more credibility in this thread if you provided
solid technical reasons why HAL is bad rather than stomping your feet
while saying I don't like it!  Please provide a technical reason why
HAL is unacceptable.


HAL causes enough technical problems and negative side-effects. Just 
Google for that.


But don't shift the focus away to Is there a technical problem? while 
the real problem is the /whole idea/ of HAL.


Long time Linux users require choice, transparency, and CONTROL.

HAL is the complete opposite and now it is needlessly enforced per 
dependency in Debian.


One Hardware Abstraction Layer (the Linux Kernel) should be enough.

People who want more than one can install Ubuntu which is a good 
distribution.



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Sjoerd Hardeman]

Dirk schreef:

You would have much more credibility in this thread if you provided
solid technical reasons why HAL is bad rather than stomping your feet
while saying I don't like it!  Please provide a technical reason why
HAL is unacceptable.


HAL causes enough technical problems and negative side-effects. Just 
Google for that.


But don't shift the focus away to Is there a technical problem? while 
the real problem is the /whole idea/ of HAL.


Long time Linux users require choice, transparency, and CONTROL.

HAL is the complete opposite and now it is needlessly enforced per 
dependency in Debian.


One Hardware Abstraction Layer (the Linux Kernel) should be enough.

People who want more than one can install Ubuntu which is a good 
distribution.
I think the point Nate is making is that you can just configure X as not 
to use HAL (see the link in one of the previous mails). If you also not 
want hal installed, just make a nohal dummy package with a 
provides:hal attribute set.
Yet, the X.org dev's (not the debian devs) are moving to using hal for 
xorg (at least, that's my understanding). So that's why debian is too. 
Discussing there makes more sense.
And, finally, you haven't answered the question on what's wrong with 
hal. I'm using it without problems, and even still feel in control when 
needed by altering the .fdi files in /usr/share/hal. So no, I don't see 
the problem, please explain.


Sjoerd



Dirk







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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Sjoerd Hardeman wrote:

Dirk schreef:

You would have much more credibility in this thread if you provided
solid technical reasons why HAL is bad rather than stomping your feet
while saying I don't like it!  Please provide a technical reason why
HAL is unacceptable.


HAL causes enough technical problems and negative side-effects. Just 
Google for that.


But don't shift the focus away to Is there a technical problem? 
while the real problem is the /whole idea/ of HAL.


Long time Linux users require choice, transparency, and CONTROL.

HAL is the complete opposite and now it is needlessly enforced per 
dependency in Debian.


One Hardware Abstraction Layer (the Linux Kernel) should be enough.

People who want more than one can install Ubuntu which is a good 
distribution.
I think the point Nate is making is that you can just configure X as not 
to use HAL (see the link in one of the previous mails). If you also not 
want hal installed, just make a nohal dummy package with a 
provides:hal attribute set.


This is very convenient to say, right? Of course, one can make a dummy 
package and spend his time searching Google and this mailing list for 
hints to make X11 work again without HAL. But it turns out to be a 
moving target and a waste of time with every update of the distribution.


I've done so. More than once. And that is that.

Yet, the X.org dev's (not the debian devs) are moving to using hal for 
xorg (at least, that's my understanding). So that's why debian is too. 
Discussing there makes more sense.


I did. According to them DeviceKit is going to replace HAL.
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/DeviceKit

Why do they, /themself/, see a need to replace HAL? And will devicekit 
be more acceptable to people who care more than even I do?


Will it be a choice?

And, finally, you haven't answered the question on what's wrong with 
hal. I'm using it without problems, and even still feel in control when 
needed by altering the .fdi files in /usr/share/hal. So no, I don't see 
the problem, please explain.


Geeez... the problem is that it was promoted to a requirement for 
running a Debian Desktop while there was no need for it in the first 
place with alternatives like Ubuntu or Windows(!) at hand.


Another problem are the people who think they need to turn Linux into 
something like a Windows to appeal to people who don't even care/know 
enough about which OS they use. By this HAL is neglecting the best part 
of Linux for the sake of Linux, ready for the desktop? headlines on 
Slashdot.



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Avi Greenbury]

Dirk wrote:
Geeez... the problem is that it was promoted to a requirement for 
running a Debian Desktop while there was no need for it in the first 
place with alternatives like Ubuntu or Windows(!) at hand.


Another problem are the people who think they need to turn Linux into 
something like a Windows to appeal to people who don't even care/know 
enough about which OS they use. By this HAL is neglecting the best part 
of Linux for the sake of Linux, ready for the desktop? headlines on 
Slashdot.


What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?

You keep coming back to this thing of being like Windows. That, in and 
of itself, is not a bad thing (there are at least a few things that 
Windows got right). It is a bad thing if other things are negatively 
affected by being like Windows.


You've not yet explained what these negative effects are. Could you 
please do so without reference to Windows or Ubuntu?


--
Avi Greenbury
http://aviswebsite.co.uk ;)
http://aviswebsite.co.uk/asking-questions


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[John Hasler]

Sjoerd writes:
 And, finally, you haven't answered the question on what's wrong with
 hal. I'm using it without problems, and even still feel in control when
 needed by altering the .fdi files in /usr/share/hal. So no, I don't see
 the problem, please explain.

Some of us simply don't need it.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Avi Greenbury wrote:

Dirk wrote:
Geeez... the problem is that it was promoted to a requirement for 
running a Debian Desktop while there was no need for it in the first 
place with alternatives like Ubuntu or Windows(!) at hand.


Another problem are the people who think they need to turn Linux into 
something like a Windows to appeal to people who don't even care/know 
enough about which OS they use. By this HAL is neglecting the best 
part of Linux for the sake of Linux, ready for the desktop? 
headlines on Slashdot.


What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?


The complete absence of automation if I choose not to want/need it.

The ability to mount devices myself, or not.

The ability to do what I want.

You keep coming back to this thing of being like Windows. That, in and 
of itself, is not a bad thing

 (there are at least a few things that
Windows got right). It is a bad thing if other things are negatively 
affected by being like Windows.


You've not yet explained what these negative effects are. Could you 
please do so without reference to Windows or Ubuntu?




Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed 
Debian without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem 
(pick one from this list: http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).


So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.

The answers will very likely force(!) me(!) to learn to understand how 
to alter the HAL configuration while it should be possible not to 
install HAL in the first place if it wasn't made a needlessly 
requirement(!) for running a Debian desktop.


Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's 
to battle choice?



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Jeff Soules]

 Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's to
 battle choice?

I'm not a HAL fanboy.  In fact, I couldn't care less.  From the
descriptions, it sounds like HAL (like every other piece of software
ever written) solves some problems while potentially creating others.
Such is life.

But your argument against HAL is:

 Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed Debian
 without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem [...snip...]
 The answers will very likely force(!) me(!) to learn to understand how to
 alter the HAL configuration

Or basically:

What if I have to use HAL, and then what if HAL breaks?  I might have
to learn how to fix it!

...so?
Technology moves forward.  You do have a choice; I mean, if you liked
you could even just run XFree86 on a Potato box, or something.  But
did you start using Debian because you dislike learning new things?
It's unpleasant to have your old tools taken away, but surely you have
more concrete objections than what you've voiced so far?
I'd love to agree with you.  I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm
ready to be convinced.  But I'm afraid that right now you're coming
across as yelling at HAL to get off your lawn, and that's probably not
the strongest case you could make.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Dirknoi...@gmx.net wrote:
 What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?

 The complete absence of automation if I choose not to want/need it.

 The ability to mount devices myself, or not.

 The ability to do what I want.

 You've not yet explained what these negative effects are. Could you please
 do so without reference to Windows or Ubuntu?


 Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed Debian
 without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem (pick one from
 this list: http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).

 So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.

 The answers will very likely force(!) me(!) to learn to understand how to
 alter the HAL configuration while it should be possible not to install HAL
 in the first place if it wasn't made a needlessly requirement(!) for running
 a Debian desktop.

 Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's to
 battle choice?


 Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Jeff Soules wrote:

Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's to
battle choice?


I'm not a HAL fanboy.  In fact, I couldn't care less.  From the
descriptions, it sounds like HAL (like every other piece of software
ever written) solves some problems while potentially creating others.
Such is life.

But your argument against HAL is:


Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed Debian
without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem [...snip...]
The answers will very likely force(!) me(!) to learn to understand how to
alter the HAL configuration


Or basically:

What if I have to use HAL, and then what if HAL breaks?  I might have
to learn how to fix it!

...so?
Technology moves forward.  You do have a choice; I mean, if you liked
you could even just run XFree86 on a Potato box, or something.  But
did you start using Debian because you dislike learning new things?
It's unpleasant to have your old tools taken away, but surely you have
more concrete objections than what you've voiced so far?
I'd love to agree with you.  I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm
ready to be convinced.  But I'm afraid that right now you're coming
across as yelling at HAL to get off your lawn, and that's probably not
the strongest case you could make.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Dirknoi...@gmx.net wrote:

What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?

The complete absence of automation if I choose not to want/need it.

The ability to mount devices myself, or not.

The ability to do what I want.


You've not yet explained what these negative effects are. Could you please
do so without reference to Windows or Ubuntu?


Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed Debian
without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem (pick one from
this list: http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).

So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.

The answers will very likely force(!) me(!) to learn to understand how to
alter the HAL configuration while it should be possible not to install HAL
in the first place if it wasn't made a needlessly requirement(!) for running
a Debian desktop.

Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's to
battle choice?


Dirk





I start to wonder how much words and effort the actual package 
maintainers would use to avoid turning a dependency back into a 
recommendation when the users already have such a mindset.


Poor Linux.


Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Jochen Schulz]

Dirk:
 
 Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed  
 Debian without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem  
 (pick one from this list: 
 http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).

Previously, you said not only HAL itself is the problem, but the *idea*
behind it. I have no reason to doubt that HAL isn't necessarily the best
implementation of the idea but that doesn't mean the whole idea is bad.

 So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.
 
 The answers will very likely force(!) me(!)

Nobody forces you to do anything. You can compile patch X.org yourself,
run oldstable, switch to another distribution or throw your computer out
of the window. Or you could just accept HAL and go on with your life.

 to learn to understand how  
 to alter the HAL configuration while it should be possible not to  
 install HAL in the first place if it wasn't made a needlessly  
 requirement(!) for running a Debian desktop.

Previously, it was required to know how to edit xorg.conf and how to
change (e.g.) the keyboard layout for virtual terminals. Now you don't
need that anymore, but you are required to configure system wide
defaults for both the console and X. I fail to see how the situation has
become worse.

 Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's  
 to battle choice?

Actually, I couldn't care less about HAL. I am just asking myself
whether the X.org devs battle choice or whether you are battling
progress.

J.
-- 
If all my friends had Playstations I would buy a Nintendo to prove my
individuality.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Dirk wrote:

Jeff Soules wrote:
Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who 
want's to

battle choice?


I'm not a HAL fanboy.  In fact, I couldn't care less.  From the
descriptions, it sounds like HAL (like every other piece of software
ever written) solves some problems while potentially creating others.
Such is life.

But your argument against HAL is:

Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed 
Debian
without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem 
[...snip...]
The answers will very likely force(!) me(!) to learn to understand 
how to

alter the HAL configuration


Or basically:

What if I have to use HAL, and then what if HAL breaks?  I might have
to learn how to fix it!

...so?
Technology moves forward.  You do have a choice; I mean, if you liked
you could even just run XFree86 on a Potato box, or something.  But
did you start using Debian because you dislike learning new things?
It's unpleasant to have your old tools taken away, but surely you have
more concrete objections than what you've voiced so far?
I'd love to agree with you.  I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm
ready to be convinced.  But I'm afraid that right now you're coming
across as yelling at HAL to get off your lawn, and that's probably not
the strongest case you could make.



HAL is not technology moving forward.

It is a project dedicated to taking away the right to do what you want.

And the persistance of not understanding this that I face here is just 
sad. You people don't seem to know what door you leave open here and how 
it could affect the future and usability of Linux in a negative way.


Isn't one trainwreck of an operating system enough? Do we really need to 
turn Linux into another trainwreck at all costs to attract more users 
from trainwreck #1?



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Jeff Soules]

 HAL is not technology moving forward.

 It is a project dedicated to taking away the right to do what you want.

I'm sorry, your argument is HAL hates freedom?  Seriously?  You
believe there is an entire team of malicious devs who've devoted their
weekends to oppressing your choice of mouse buttons?

 And the persistance of not understanding this that I face here is just sad.
 You people don't seem to know what door you leave open here and how it could
 affect the future and usability of Linux in a negative way.

All right, I'll bite.  How specifically could it affect the future and
usability of Linux in a negative way?  What disasters might happen,
what door are we leaving open here?  What does HAL do that you don't
like?

You can't be too upset with us for not understanding that when you've
made very little effort to explain it (beyond I might have to learn
how to fix it).


On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Dirknoi...@gmx.net wrote:
 Dirk wrote:

 Jeff Soules wrote:

 Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's
 to
 battle choice?

 I'm not a HAL fanboy.  In fact, I couldn't care less.  From the
 descriptions, it sounds like HAL (like every other piece of software
 ever written) solves some problems while potentially creating others.
 Such is life.

 But your argument against HAL is:

 Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed
 Debian
 without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem
 [...snip...]
 The answers will very likely force(!) me(!) to learn to understand how
 to
 alter the HAL configuration

 Or basically:

 What if I have to use HAL, and then what if HAL breaks?  I might have
 to learn how to fix it!

 ...so?
 Technology moves forward.  You do have a choice; I mean, if you liked
 you could even just run XFree86 on a Potato box, or something.  But
 did you start using Debian because you dislike learning new things?
 It's unpleasant to have your old tools taken away, but surely you have
 more concrete objections than what you've voiced so far?
 I'd love to agree with you.  I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm
 ready to be convinced.  But I'm afraid that right now you're coming
 across as yelling at HAL to get off your lawn, and that's probably not
 the strongest case you could make.


 HAL is not technology moving forward.

 It is a project dedicated to taking away the right to do what you want.

 And the persistance of not understanding this that I face here is just sad.
 You people don't seem to know what door you leave open here and how it could
 affect the future and usability of Linux in a negative way.

 Isn't one trainwreck of an operating system enough? Do we really need to
 turn Linux into another trainwreck at all costs to attract more users from
 trainwreck #1?


 Dirk



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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Jochen Schulz wrote:

Dirk:
Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed  
Debian without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem  
(pick one from this list: 
http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).


Previously, you said not only HAL itself is the problem, but the *idea*
behind it. I have no reason to doubt that HAL isn't necessarily the best
implementation of the idea but that doesn't mean the whole idea is bad.


So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.

The answers will very likely force(!) me(!)


Nobody forces you to do anything. You can compile patch X.org yourself,
run oldstable, switch to another distribution or throw your computer out
of the window. Or you could just accept HAL and go on with your life.


You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?

To downgrade or to even switch whole distributions because of a single 
stubborn package maintainer?


How about that package maintainer just turns a dependency back into a 
recommendation to make /everyone/ happy? (Did I suggest that before?)


to learn to understand how  
to alter the HAL configuration while it should be possible not to  
install HAL in the first place if it wasn't made a needlessly  
requirement(!) for running a Debian desktop.


Previously, it was required to know how to edit xorg.conf and how to
change (e.g.) the keyboard layout for virtual terminals. Now you don't
need that anymore, but you are required to configure system wide
defaults for both the console and X. I fail to see how the situation has
become worse.


Now you don't need that anymore ...because you're /forced/ to install HAL.

Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who want's  
to battle choice?


Actually, I couldn't care less about HAL. I am just asking myself
whether the X.org devs battle choice or whether you are battling
progress.

J.


I don't care of the progress that comes with HAL. Because I don't want 
to be forced to install it. I DON'T WANT TO BE FORCED TO INSTALL HAL 
because Linux works fine without a 2nd Hardware Abstraction Layer.



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Jeff Soules wrote:

HAL is not technology moving forward.

It is a project dedicated to taking away the right to do what you want.


I'm sorry, your argument is HAL hates freedom?  Seriously?  You
believe there is an entire team of malicious devs who've devoted their
weekends to oppressing your choice of mouse buttons?


And the persistance of not understanding this that I face here is just sad.
You people don't seem to know what door you leave open here and how it could
affect the future and usability of Linux in a negative way.


All right, I'll bite.  How specifically could it affect the future and
usability of Linux in a negative way?  What disasters might happen,
what door are we leaving open here?  What does HAL do that you don't
like?


It takes away my right to do what I want. And it does so because its 
installation is enforced per dependency.


I can imagine making Linux safer to use for beginners by having a daemon 
in the background running that overwrites changed config files with 
default values to prevent clueless people from trashing their system.


That daemon could be enforced as a dependency of the Linux Standard Base 
to ensure less questions like Help! My Linux doesn't work anymore. in 
this mailing list.


That would be very convenient and to hell with people who don't need it.


You can't be too upset with us for not understanding that when you've
made very little effort to explain it (beyond I might have to learn
how to fix it).


It is not: I might have to learn how to fix it

It is: I can't deinstall it even though it could be possible



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In 4a5f532a.8000...@gmx.net, Dirk wrote:
Jochen Schulz wrote:
 Dirk:
 Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed
 Debian without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem
 (pick one from this list:
 http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).

 Previously, you said not only HAL itself is the problem, but the *idea*
 behind it. I have no reason to doubt that HAL isn't necessarily the best
 implementation of the idea but that doesn't mean the whole idea is bad.

 So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.

 The answers will very likely force(!) me(!)

 Nobody forces you to do anything. You can compile patch X.org yourself,
 run oldstable, switch to another distribution or throw your computer out
 of the window. Or you could just accept HAL and go on with your life.

You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?

No, just those that refuse to accept the package maintainers' decisions.  
That's always been true of every Debian package.

How about that package maintainer just turns a dependency back into a
recommendation to make /everyone/ happy? (Did I suggest that before?)

From what I understand, X will run fine without HAL.  In that case, I agree 
with you.  Depends is for packages that are *technically* *required* to run; 
Recommends is for packages that add additional features (including advanced 
configuration or automation).

Depends is *NOT* meant for strong recommendations.  The package 
maintainer(s) is(are) in the wrong, but they are still the maintainer.  I 
don't have the resources to maintain X.org packages for Debian, so I accept 
what is given for the cost I can bear.  I would be willing to test X.org 
packages that don't Depend on HAL if someone is putting forth the resources 
to maintain them.

If someone it willing to put forth the resources, but they don't have the 
technical skill or time, they can buy both from me.  PM me for rates.
-- 
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b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In 4a5f556b.8090...@gmx.net, Dirk wrote:
Jeff Soules wrote:
 HAL is not technology moving forward.

 It is a project dedicated to taking away the right to do what you want.

 I'm sorry, your argument is HAL hates freedom?  Seriously?  You
 believe there is an entire team of malicious devs who've devoted their
 weekends to oppressing your choice of mouse buttons?

It takes away my right to do what I want. And it does so because its
installation is enforced per dependency.

HAL itself doesn't do that.  The package maintainers for the X.org package 
in Debian do that.

I don't think that they hate freedom, but rather that they may be making 
the wrong decision for the right reasons.  (They would like Linux to be easy 
AND flexible.)
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[steef]

Dirk wrote:

Jochen Schulz wrote:

Dirk:
Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed  
Debian without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem  
(pick one from this list: 
http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).


Previously, you said not only HAL itself is the problem, but the *idea*
behind it. I have no reason to doubt that HAL isn't necessarily the best
implementation of the idea but that doesn't mean the whole idea is bad.


So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.

The answers will very likely force(!) me(!)


Nobody forces you to do anything. You can compile patch X.org yourself,
run oldstable, switch to another distribution or throw your computer out
of the window. Or you could just accept HAL and go on with your life.


You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?

To downgrade or to even switch whole distributions because of a single 
stubborn package maintainer?


How about that package maintainer just turns a dependency back into a 
recommendation to make /everyone/ happy? (Did I suggest that before?)


to learn to understand how  to alter the HAL configuration while it 
should be possible not to  install HAL in the first place if it 
wasn't made a needlessly  requirement(!) for running a Debian desktop.


Previously, it was required to know how to edit xorg.conf and how to
change (e.g.) the keyboard layout for virtual terminals. Now you don't
need that anymore, but you are required to configure system wide
defaults for both the console and X. I fail to see how the situation has
become worse.


Now you don't need that anymore ...because you're /forced/ to 
install HAL.


Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who 
want's  to battle choice?


Actually, I couldn't care less about HAL. I am just asking myself
whether the X.org devs battle choice or whether you are battling
progress.

J.


I don't care of the progress that comes with HAL. Because I don't 
want to be forced to install it. I DON'T WANT TO BE FORCED TO INSTALL 
HAL because Linux works fine without a 2nd Hardware Abstraction Layer.



Dirk



dirk,

i support you on this most principal point: your outcry for the 
persistence of the freedom of choice under debian (linux). without (of 
course well-meaning) patronizing developers. i have followed this 
intriguing thread with some surprise: allmost nobody seems to understand 
fully the impact of the word 'free' any more.


regards,

steef 


steef van duin

publicist, research-journalist


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Celejar]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:58:12 +0200
Dirk noi...@gmx.net wrote:

 Avi Greenbury wrote:

...

  What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?

...

 The ability to mount devices myself, or not.

This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be configured
to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this message, lo
and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  When I
unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.

 The ability to do what I want.

Again, *what* exactly do you want to do that HAL is confounding?  I'm
also not that crazy about dependency creep, I'd prefer to keep large,
complex, poorly documented stuff off my system, and I haven't yet
really wrapped my head around editing xml fdi files, but I haven't
actually been hampered much in any tangible way yet.  Well, except for
this, which may somehow be HAL related:

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=533863

Celejar
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

steef wrote:

Dirk wrote:

Jochen Schulz wrote:

Dirk:
Ok, let us assume I wouldn't be able to remove HAL from a installed  
Debian without breaking X11 permanently and I have a random problem  
(pick one from this list: 
http://www.google.com/search?q=HAL+problem+linux).


Previously, you said not only HAL itself is the problem, but the *idea*
behind it. I have no reason to doubt that HAL isn't necessarily the best
implementation of the idea but that doesn't mean the whole idea is bad.


So I turn here and ask how to solve the problem.

The answers will very likely force(!) me(!)


Nobody forces you to do anything. You can compile patch X.org yourself,
run oldstable, switch to another distribution or throw your computer out
of the window. Or you could just accept HAL and go on with your life.


You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?

To downgrade or to even switch whole distributions because of a single 
stubborn package maintainer?


How about that package maintainer just turns a dependency back into a 
recommendation to make /everyone/ happy? (Did I suggest that before?)


to learn to understand how  to alter the HAL configuration while it 
should be possible not to  install HAL in the first place if it 
wasn't made a needlessly  requirement(!) for running a Debian desktop.


Previously, it was required to know how to edit xorg.conf and how to
change (e.g.) the keyboard layout for virtual terminals. Now you don't
need that anymore, but you are required to configure system wide
defaults for both the console and X. I fail to see how the situation has
become worse.


Now you don't need that anymore ...because you're /forced/ to 
install HAL.


Is that enough of an answer or is there any HAL fanboy left who 
want's  to battle choice?


Actually, I couldn't care less about HAL. I am just asking myself
whether the X.org devs battle choice or whether you are battling
progress.

J.


I don't care of the progress that comes with HAL. Because I don't 
want to be forced to install it. I DON'T WANT TO BE FORCED TO INSTALL 
HAL because Linux works fine without a 2nd Hardware Abstraction Layer.



Dirk



dirk,

i support you on this most principal point: your outcry for the 
persistence of the freedom of choice under debian (linux). without (of 
course well-meaning) patronizing developers. i have followed this 
intriguing thread with some surprise: allmost nobody seems to understand 
fully the impact of the word 'free' any more.


regards,

steef
steef van duin

publicist, research-journalist




I guess we will have to stick it out until HAL has been replaced.

Hopefully the trend of writing UI's and games (QuakeLive) that run in a 
browser will continue and some day X11, HAL and all that mindset ballast 
decending from what they know from other operating systems will become 
obsolete and in a paradigm shift a(ny) browser, itself, becomes a 
Desktop using simple, clean interfaces supplied by the 1st Hardware 
Abstraction Layer (the Kernel).


Something like that. Then we won't have to deal with this short-sighted 
stuborness of cloning nanny-features anymore which we thought we left 
behind when we switched to Linux in the early nineties...



Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Celejar wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:58:12 +0200
Dirk noi...@gmx.net wrote:


Avi Greenbury wrote:


...


What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?


...


The ability to mount devices myself, or not.


This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be configured
to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this message, lo
and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  When I
unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.


I am happy for you.

But how does this prevent me from having to install HAL?


The ability to do what I want.


Again, *what* exactly do you want to do that HAL is confounding?


I don't want to be forced to install and/or care about it.

Because I never did need it. I don't need it. I will never need it.


Dirk


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Celejar]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:20:56 +0200
Dirk noi...@gmx.net wrote:

 Celejar wrote:
  On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:58:12 +0200
  Dirk noi...@gmx.net wrote:
  
  Avi Greenbury wrote:
  
  ...
  
  What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?
  
  ...
  
  The ability to mount devices myself, or not.
  
  This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
  merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be configured
  to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
  automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this message, lo
  and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
  realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  When I
  unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
  Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.
 
 I am happy for you.
 
 But how does this prevent me from having to install HAL?

I was merely correcting a demonstrably false implication of yours, that
HAL somehow interferes with your control over device mounting.

Celejar
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Brian Nelson]

Dirk noi...@gmx.net writes:

 Jochen Schulz wrote:
 Nobody forces you to do anything. You can compile patch X.org yourself,
 run oldstable, switch to another distribution or throw your computer out
 of the window. Or you could just accept HAL and go on with your life.

 You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?

 To downgrade or to even switch whole distributions because of a single
 stubborn package maintainer?

X.org is maintained by a team of developers, and its usage of HAL has
been discussed on the general developers' mailing list.  There is no
single maintainer acting alone, and if there were a consensus that X's
dependency on HAL is as bad as you say (which there isn't), the
technical committee could overrule them anyway.

-- 
Captain Logic is not steering this tugboat.


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Dirk]

Brian Nelson wrote:

Dirk noi...@gmx.net writes:


Jochen Schulz wrote:

Nobody forces you to do anything. You can compile patch X.org yourself,
run oldstable, switch to another distribution or throw your computer out
of the window. Or you could just accept HAL and go on with your life.

You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?

To downgrade or to even switch whole distributions because of a single
stubborn package maintainer?


X.org is maintained by a team of developers, and its usage of HAL has
been discussed on the general developers' mailing list.  There is no
single maintainer acting alone, and if there were a consensus that X's
dependency on HAL is as bad as you say (which there isn't), the
technical committee could overrule them anyway.



I meant the package maintainer of the debian package and the refusal to 
reduce HAL to a recommendation instead of making it a requirement.


In the X.org mailinglist I was told that the necessity for HAL can be 
enabled/disabled at compile time. So there should be no problem for the 
maintainer to do so.


I guess the next reply will suggest, again, that everyone who doesn't 
want HAL should compile X11 himself.



Dirk



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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Alex Samad]

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:35:29AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 4a5f532a.8000...@gmx.net, Dirk wrote:
 Jochen Schulz wrote:
  Dirk:
[snip]
 You suggest that everyone compiles X11 him-/herself now?
 
 No, just those that refuse to accept the package maintainers' decisions.  
 That's always been true of every Debian package.
 
 How about that package maintainer just turns a dependency back into a
 recommendation to make /everyone/ happy? (Did I suggest that before?)
 
 From what I understand, X will run fine without HAL.  In that case, I agree 
 with you.  Depends is for packages that are *technically* *required* to run; 
 Recommends is for packages that add additional features (including advanced 
 configuration or automation).
 
 Depends is *NOT* meant for strong recommendations.  The package 
 maintainer(s) is(are) in the wrong, but they are still the maintainer.  I 
 don't have the resources to maintain X.org packages for Debian, so I accept 
 what is given for the cost I can bear.  I would be willing to test X.org 
 packages that don't Depend on HAL if someone is putting forth the resources 
 to maintain them.

Problem with this attitude is that back in the day, if linus had said
that, sorry I can't maintain an entire distro, but microsoft can and
therefor I should be happy with what i have, we would not be here today.

Dirk has his right to object and as you have pointed out he might have
some grounds to do it.

HAL has been a pain for me, because of my laptop and my need to attach
things to the laptop whilst its on, thus hal mount things all over the
place and does things the system wasn't doing before. 

As for the efi structure its a pain.

To me the depends: hal is the same as saying you need the intel gpu
driver when you install X

A

 
 If someone it willing to put forth the resources, but they don't have the 
 technical skill or time, they can buy both from me.  PM me for rates.



-- 
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A unit of measure applied to color.  Twenty-four-bit color
refers to expensive $3 color as opposed to the cheaper 25
cent, or two-bit, color that use to be available a few years ago.


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Alex Samad]

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 03:22:03PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:20:56 +0200
 Dirk noi...@gmx.net wrote:
 
  Celejar wrote:
   On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:58:12 +0200
   Dirk noi...@gmx.net wrote:
   
   Avi Greenbury wrote:
   
   ...
   
   What is the 'best part of Linux' that HAL neglects?
   
   ...
   
   The ability to mount devices myself, or not.
   
   This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
   merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be configured
   to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
   automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this message, lo
   and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
   realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  When I
   unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
   Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.

isn't this because it writes out HAL efi files ?
/etc/hal/fdi/policy/preferences.fdi


  
  I am happy for you.
  
  But how does this prevent me from having to install HAL?
 
 I was merely correcting a demonstrably false implication of yours, that
 HAL somehow interferes with your control over device mounting.
 
 Celejar

-- 
I played lead guitar in a band called The Federal Duck, which is the kind
of name that was popular in the '60s as a result of controlled substances
being in widespread use.  Back then, there were no restrictions, in terms
of talent, on who could make an album, so we made one, and it sounds like
a group of people who have been given powerful but unfamiliar instruments
as a therapy for a degenerative nerve disease.
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Celejar]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:39:16 +1000
Alex Samad a...@samad.com.au wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 03:22:03PM -0400, Celejar wrote:

...

This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be configured
to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this message, lo
and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  When I
unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.
 
 isn't this because it writes out HAL efi files ?
 /etc/hal/fdi/policy/preferences.fdi

Not sure what you mean; I currently have xfce's automounting enabled,
and that file you mention is virtually empty (it contains a couple of
commented out examples, and not much else.

Celejar
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Alex Samad]

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 04:57:44PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
 On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:39:16 +1000
 Alex Samad a...@samad.com.au wrote:
 
  On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 03:22:03PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
 
 ...
 
 This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
 merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be 
 configured
 to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
 automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this message, 
 lo
 and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
 realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  When I
 unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
 Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.
  
  isn't this because it writes out HAL efi files ?
  /etc/hal/fdi/policy/preferences.fdi
 
 Not sure what you mean; I currently have xfce's automounting enabled,
 and that file you mention is virtually empty (it contains a couple of
 commented out examples, and not much else.
I also have the xfce4 automount options off and it looks to me like it
has set them in this file

?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8? !-- -*- SGML -*- --

!--
  Some examples how to use hal fdi files for system preferences
  You can either uncomment the examples here or put them in a seperate
.fdi
  file.
--
deviceinfo version=0.2
!--
  The following shows how to hint gnome-volume-manager and other
programs
  that honor the storage.automount_enabled_hint to not mount
non-removable
  media.
--
!--
  device
match key=storage.hotpluggable bool=false
  match key=storage.removable bool=false
merge key=storage.automount_enabled_hint
type=boolfalse/merge
  /match
/match
  /device
--
/deviceinfo


What I was trying to suggest is that you were using hal even though you
thought you were not.

A

 
 Celejar

-- 
It is time to set aside the old partisan bickering and finger-pointing and 
name-calling that comes from freeing parents to make different choices for 
their children.

- George W. Bush
04/12/2001
on parental empowerment in education


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Kelly Clowers]

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 14:02, Alex Samada...@samad.com.au wrote:
 On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 04:57:44PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
 On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:39:16 +1000
 Alex Samad a...@samad.com.au wrote:

  On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 03:22:03PM -0400, Celejar wrote:

 ...

 This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
 merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be 
 configured
 to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
 automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this message, 
 lo
 and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
 realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  When 
 I
 unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
 Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.
 
  isn't this because it writes out HAL efi files ?
  /etc/hal/fdi/policy/preferences.fdi

 Not sure what you mean; I currently have xfce's automounting enabled,
 and that file you mention is virtually empty (it contains a couple of
 commented out examples, and not much else.
 I also have the xfce4 automount options off and it looks to me like it
 has set them in this file

 ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8? !-- -*- SGML -*- --

 !--
  Some examples how to use hal fdi files for system preferences
  You can either uncomment the examples here or put them in a seperate
 .fdi
  file.
 --
 deviceinfo version=0.2
 !--
  The following shows how to hint gnome-volume-manager and other
 programs
  that honor the storage.automount_enabled_hint to not mount
 non-removable
  media.
 --
 !--
  device
    match key=storage.hotpluggable bool=false
      match key=storage.removable bool=false
        merge key=storage.automount_enabled_hint
 type=boolfalse/merge
      /match
    /match
  /device
 --
 /deviceinfo


 What I was trying to suggest is that you were using hal even though you
 thought you were not.

Setting a volume manager/automounter not to automount may change
that file, but hal still does not do the mounting. I run Awesome WM, and
even with that value set to true, it does not automount - because there is
no volume manager. And a volume manager could ignore that hint from
hal if it coded that way.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't work anymore

[Celejar]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:02:19 +1000
Alex Samad a...@samad.com.au wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 04:57:44PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
  On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:39:16 +1000
  Alex Samad a...@samad.com.au wrote:
  
   On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 03:22:03PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
  
  ...
  
  This is just wrong; HAL *doesn't automount anything* on its own.  It
  merely passes information to a *volume manager*, which can be 
  configured
  to do whatever you want.  I run HAL, and I've never had devices
  automounted. When I tried once more, before firing off this 
  message, lo
  and behold my USB key did indeed automount, but I investigated and
  realized that it was some component of xfce that was doing it.  
  When I
  unchecked the box Settings / Removable Drives and Media / Storage /
  Mount removable drives when hot-plugged, the old behavior returned.
   
   isn't this because it writes out HAL efi files ?
   /etc/hal/fdi/policy/preferences.fdi
  
  Not sure what you mean; I currently have xfce's automounting enabled,
  and that file you mention is virtually empty (it contains a couple of
  commented out examples, and not much else.
 I also have the xfce4 automount options off and it looks to me like it
 has set them in this file
 
 ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8? !-- -*- SGML -*- --
 
 !--
   Some examples how to use hal fdi files for system preferences
   You can either uncomment the examples here or put them in a seperate
 .fdi
   file.
 --
 deviceinfo version=0.2
 !--
   The following shows how to hint gnome-volume-manager and other
 programs
   that honor the storage.automount_enabled_hint to not mount
 non-removable
   media.
 --
 !--
   device
 match key=storage.hotpluggable bool=false
   match key=storage.removable bool=false
 merge key=storage.automount_enabled_hint
 type=boolfalse/merge
   /match
 /match
   /device
 --
 /deviceinfo
 
 
 What I was trying to suggest is that you were using hal even though you
 thought you were not.

I have the same file.  There's nothing in it, since those stanzas are
commented out, and they seem to remain commented out, even when I
enable automounting in xfce.  Are you suggesting that xfce changes the
file?  I don't think that it does.

In any event, those stanzas aren't to enable automounting, but to
disable it for non-removable media, and besides, as Kelly points out,
they're just hints to the automounter, which does any actual work, and
is configured separately, so once again, Dirk's claim that HAL somehow
hijacks his ability to mount as he sees fit is simply incorrect.

Celejar
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Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't workanymore

[owens]

 Original Message 
From: noi...@gmx.net
To: sou...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: X11 without HAL: DontZap in /etc/X11/xorg.conf doesn't
workanymore
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:29:31 +0200

Jeff Soules wrote:
 HAL is not technology moving forward.

 It is a project dedicated to taking away the right to do what you
want.
 
 I'm sorry, your argument is HAL hates freedom?  Seriously?  You
 believe there is an entire team of malicious devs who've devoted
their
 weekends to oppressing your choice of mouse buttons?
 
 And the persistance of not understanding this that I face here is
just sad.
 You people don't seem to know what door you leave open here and
how it could
 affect the future and usability of Linux in a negative way.
 
 All right, I'll bite.  How specifically could it affect the future
and
 usability of Linux in a negative way?  What disasters might
happen,
 what door are we leaving open here?  What does HAL do that you
don't
 like?

It takes away my right to do what I want. And it does so because its

installation is enforced per dependency.

I can imagine making Linux safer to use for beginners by having a
daemon 
in the background running that overwrites changed config files with 
default values to prevent clueless people from trashing their
system.

That daemon could be enforced as a dependency of the Linux Standard
Base 
to ensure less questions like Help! My Linux doesn't work anymore.
in 
this mailing list.

That would be very convenient and to hell with people who don't need
it.

 You can't be too upset with us for not understanding that when
you've
 made very little effort to explain it (beyond I might have to
learn
 how to fix it).

It is not: I might have to learn how to fix it

It is: I can't deinstall it even though it could be possible



Dirk

Pardon a mild intervention but I seem to recall a very similar thread
on a very similar topic several months ago that, as this one seems to
be heading, ended with frustration on both sides.  Is Don Quixote in
the house?
Larry

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