Thanks Isabel and Sergio for the feedback and evaluation criteria.
Based on the discussion I see mixed views in the community.
To summarize my suggestion:
1. Setup user@ list and staff with volunteers to respond to user requests.
2. Make changes based on feedback to grow the user list organically.
Honestly, I'm quite surprised of the level of the reactions on this thread.
When I started it, I just wanted to expand the community with a tool that,
even some people consider it "old fashion", it has been proved to help many
other Apache projects to foster their community in the past.
I guess,
+1
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:43 AM Steffen Rochel
wrote:
> I had a discussion yesterday with Jun Wu (wujun@gmail.com) to get a
> better understanding about the concerns raised, that users might get
> confused and maintenance efforts.
> I agree with Jim that building and fostering the
I had a discussion yesterday with Jun Wu (wujun@gmail.com) to get a
better understanding about the concerns raised, that users might get
confused and maintenance efforts.
I agree with Jim that building and fostering the community is important.
First of all, I suggest we should be open minded
Jim,
Earlier on the thread you suggested to clarify and expand on the usage of a
user@ mailing list and how it is useful for a project.
It may be helpful for the community to learn a bit more about it. Could you
expand and/or share relevant links and examples?
Thank you,
Hagay
On Tue, Jun 19,
Just so we are clear: building and fostering a community takes effort. Either
it is something important to the project, or it's not.
My assumption is that It Is.
> On Jun 18, 2018, at 8:59 PM, YiZhi Liu wrote:
>
> I am personally not a big fan of mailing list but agree with Thomas
> that we
I am personally not a big fan of mailing list but agree with Thomas
that we may get extra users, which worth a try.
On the other hand, I also have concern that we do not have a community
big enough to support multiple forums. If people asked questions but
got no response, that can be worse than
I was actually the one stating that we didn't need a user mailing list
during the Seattle meetup, given all the reasons already exposed above.
However given what proponents of a mailing list said, I personally wouldn't
mind adding a new channel as a user mailing list, and monitoring it. There
I agree with Tianqi, Eric and others. We shouldn't dilute the community
with another forum. Disqus is already working and has healthy
participation, you can get an email digest if you so desire. Subscribing to
a mailing list to get a question answered is quite a heavyweight investment
for many
"Mailing list is an obsolete legacy for old projects"...
Not true. If you don't understand the reason and rationale and *benefits* of
using a mailing list, and why they are so core to how Apache runs projects, I'd
be happy to provide some data.
> On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:53 PM, Eric Xie wrote:
>
I like the idea to have a user mail list, it should be able to cover the
user segment who prefer to use mail lists. Though my concern is how many of
us will be volunteered to maintain this list. We have several contributors
actively maintain the forum, including Sina, Thom, and Thomas. We need
Well, there is a trend to for speaking about MXNet (Ukraine). At least I
have visited a meetup (with a workshop).
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:42 PM, Sebastian wrote:
> I am puzzled by the reluctance of this project to setup a user mailinglist
> to be honest.
>
> MXNet has major issues with
Neither TF nor Pytorch uses mailing lists though. In fact I can't think of any
deep learning community that uses mailing lists. Mailing list is an obsolete
legacy for old projects. No point in bringing it into new projects.
Thanks,
Eric
On 2018/06/18 18:42:12, Sebastian wrote:
> I am puzzled
IMHO, the approach(mail list or discuss) have nothing to do with the
popularity of the project. If you look at TF or pytorch you mentioned.
Pytorch uses discuss forum and slack, tf uses stackoverflow for support.
Both are popular but not adopting maillist. Note that I know both are both
not
Whatever you do, make sure to list all these information sources in one
easy-to-find place. For instance, it may not be very obvious to anyone that
they can read the dev mailing list on lists.apache.org. It is bad if users
aren't even aware that other channels exist.
On 6/18/18, 2:45 PM,
On 6/18/2018 9:18 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it.
>
> A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost and low-overhead way of
> *increasing* the user community and providing an extra level of support.
> Unless there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT
I am puzzled by the reluctance of this project to setup a user
mailinglist to be honest.
MXNet has major issues with attracting a community outside of Amazon
(whenever I hear folks talking about deep learning, they usually mention
tensorflow, pytorch and keras, but I rarely hear someone talk
Facebook is definitely a bad idea: we will be dependent on third party
provider + unclear who & how manages such group etc.
Forum + Confluence + Slack is much better then.
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 7:17 PM, Ivan Serdyuk
wrote:
> Greetings Barber, Christopher. I had an idea to move out some
Greetings Barber, Christopher. I had an idea to move out some discussions,
covering Java and Scala API, to Facebook. So if somewhere exists a local
JUG or Scala user group - they could reflect the topic of discussion. But
background stuff could take place on mailing lists, Slack, forum, whatever.
I don't understand why you would want a users mailing list when you already
have discussion forums. Users that want to be notified of new posts on the
forum can configure their notification preferences appropriately. The traffic
on the forums is already pretty low. I would think you would not
IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it.
A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost and low-overhead way of
*increasing* the user community and providing an extra level of support. Unless
there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT the case, I would recommend we
create the list.
> On
I also agree with Indu's points.
I feel like the mailing list is more for hackers. Typical MXNet users
are machine learning scientists and not necessarily like discussing
problems in a hacker's way.
Since we already have a discussion forum, why should we create a new
one and get users confused
Agree with Indu's points: email list usability and features seems inferior
compared to the discussion forum, so I would suggest to keep things simple
and stick with the forum.
Hagay
On Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 06:37 Timur Shenkao wrote:
> user mail list
>
> Pros:
> - Apache user mail list is indexed
user mail list
Pros:
- Apache user mail list is indexed and kept forever in mailing lists. Very
convenient.
- Apache user mail list is indexed by search engines actively and info
appears in search results pretty soon.
- You just get e-mails and when you have spare time read & answer them.
Cons:
Very good points Indu. I also think that the discussion forum is definitely
of big value and that we should keep it. But I also don't think it would
hurt anybody is we open up a new channel of communication, considering that
managing an email list doesn't cause any additional overhead.
Indhu
I prefer the discuss forum over email for following reasons:
1. It is easier for newcomers. People can login using Facebook, Twitter or
GitHub Id
2. The format is much more readable for people who search for something in
a search engine and land on the page.
3. Markdown support makes it easier
Thanks for your opinion, Tianqi. I still would love to listen others'
opinion on the topic to really assert anything.
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:41 Tianqi Chen wrote:
> Then who should represent the users who are using the forums but not the
> mail-list? I personally think it is a bit abuse use
I don't want to argue here, as "Apache way" also says VOTE should not be a
way to enforce our opinion, and consensus need to be reached through
discussion
Thanks!
Tianqi
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Tianqi Chen
wrote:
> Then who should represent the users who are using the forums but not
Then who should represent the users who are using the forums but not the
mail-list? I personally think it is a bit abuse use of the term "Apache
way" to force our mind into the entire community... Maybe I am wrong..
Tianqi
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Sergio Fernández wrote:
> Well, I do
Well, I do respect what you discussed in that meetup, if course. But for
those who weren't there, maybe the decision taken what a bit bias.
In Apache we like to say that "if it didn't happen on the mailing list s,
it didn't happen" ;-)
Look like there are different feelings about this. Should I
So unless there is a strong evidence that our community users prefers the
mail-list, I would recommend we keep the current way
Tianqi
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández wrote:
> Are we targeting just Seattle as our community? I really hope we are
> thinking a bit beyond that...
I do think we are targeting all the community, but we must also agree that
the voice of users from the meetup is a representative sample of users'
demand, and it is important that we respect that.
Tianqi
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández wrote:
> Are we targeting just Seattle
Are we targeting just Seattle as our community? I really hope we are
thinking a bit beyond that...
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:22 Tianqi Chen wrote:
> I remember last time during the mxnet meetup in Seattle, we did a survey,
> and most users preferred the current discuss forum. So I would say we
I remember last time during the mxnet meetup in Seattle, we did a survey,
and most users preferred the current discuss forum. So I would say we stick
with that given the user community prefers that
Tianqi
On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Sergio Fernández wrote:
> Then, if everybody agree,
Then, if everybody agree, let's request the mailing list creation to INFRA
;-)
Marco, I wouldn't do that. Typically developers are also subscribed there,
since they may be the most informed people for answering users' questions.
But the topics discussed there may not be of the interest for pure
I think nobody was opposed to it in the past, right?
I'd propose that all emails automatically get copied to dev@ to ensure high
visibility initially. What do you think?
Sebastian schrieb am Fr., 15. Juni 2018, 20:51:
> I have already proposed this many times in the past and would strongly
>
I have already proposed this many times in the past and would strongly
encourage it.
-s
On 15.06.2018 21:56, Sergio Fernández wrote:
Hi,
is there any good reason why the podling doesn't have a users@ mailing list
yet?
Honestly speaking, I'm not a big fan of the other tools the podling is
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