Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Jason touches on my primary concern with this situation, other than having a Ph.D. that might eventually enable me to do no better than tech position in the field that I love. Ecology, evolution, and to a broader extent the organismal sciences have been predominately white and middle-class fields ever since they stopped being exclusively white and upper-class fields. The current situation makes it insanity for anyone without a strong safety net to pursue a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology, which further limits the diversity of viewpoints that we can bring to our investigations and discussions. I think that will hinder the progress of evolutionary biology, and perhaps these other fields as well. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Jason Hernandez jason.hernande...@yahoo.com wrote: I was one of those who responded offline to the original post. Rather than tell my story again here, I offer further thoughts. Steven Schwartz wrote (in part) Perhaps the question ought to be how much one is willing to sacrifice with the knowledge that you may never achieve your dream. My answer: more than I ever thought I would. But when my savings completely dry up, I have to pay the bills somehow, and if a job completely outside my chosen field finally presents itself, then the question becomes: which risk do I take? Do I risk becoming trapped in that other career track, taking me away from my dream as my degree recedes into the past? Or do I risk becoming a bum on the streets for love of a dream? Because that is the reality some of us face. Every day, I see announcements for really great experiences that are not only unpaid, but in many cases, require the intern to cover his/her own expenses. I don't really care about upward mobility; but if I don't have the money, I cannot be a part of those opportunities, no matter how wonderful they may be in terms of the work being done. Unfortunately, anyone interested particularly in tropical ecosystems will face this situation; I do not remember ever seeing an opening for a paid position in any project in a tropical country. If students coming in knew this, how many would still pursue that path? Who would do these internships, knowing that they essentially are preparing for a career as an intern? The urgency of the situation in the tropics needs quality work, but economic realities tend to turn aspiring researchers away from those parts of the world. Jason Hernandez M.S., East Carolina University -- Date:Sun, 9 Feb 2014 22:40:15 -0500 From:Steven Schwartz drstevenschwa...@aol.com Subject: Re: Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies I=92ll add my two cents. The scarcity of positions is absolutely = nothing new. In the 1980=92s it was not unusual for there to be 300-400 = applicants or more for positions in any kind of organismal biology. It = was during that decade that doing a post-doc in ecology became the norm = as a holding place for the emerging cohort. I don=92t mean to plead a = sad tale, but I was a post-doc at a major lab, published many papers, = and later taught and taught before getting a tenure-track job after way = too many years. I stuck with it, through the tough times, when I = perhaps should have recognized my giving-up-time. I was financially = insecure most of the time but that was price I was willing to pay to = achieve my dream. Perhaps the question ought to be how much one is = willing to sacrifice with the knowledge that you may never achieve your = dream. This isn=92t fair and I, more than most, feel badly for all the = young scientists who won=92t get what they so badly want. And deserve. = But it just won=92t happen for any number of reasons which speak nothing = of the quality of the candidates passed over. As for the preponderance of adjunct or part-time faculty, one only has = to look at the corporate model of governance at most colleges and = universities to see where the real growth in higher education has been. = While the quality of education has been taking hits, the quality, = quantity, and salaries of administrators has been growing enormously. = In real terms the salary of most faculty has not grown in perhaps 40 = years. I can=92t speak for administrators, but I am willing to bet that = they make more than they did in 1970. I make about the same in actual = dollars (unadjusted for inflation) for teaching a course now as I did in = 1985. And with no benefits and I have had my PhD since before many of = the new cohort was born. Unfair? You bet. Did anyone ever say that = life was fair? No. But I can=92t imagine doing anything else so I take = what I can get and march on. Maybe there=92ll be a job next year=85.sort = of like the Cubs and the World Series. Steve Schwartz, PhD= -- -- Cynthia F. O'Rourke, Ph.D. Biology Department Reed College 3203 SE Woodstock Blvd.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
People from comfortable middle-class backgrounds don't know how to be poor. In grad school, other students were complaining about their assistantships, but it was more money than I had ever had. Since graduation, I've alternated between temporary full-time and half-time positions (reasonably well-paid, thanks to the University of California's very active unions, but in a very expensive city), but my family's support and the expectations shaped by my background have made it a good experience. As long as you avoid or minimize undergrad debt, coming from a low-income background can be an advantage in academia. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Cynthia O'Rourke c...@umbc.edu wrote: Jason touches on my primary concern with this situation, other than having a Ph.D. that might eventually enable me to do no better than tech position in the field that I love. Ecology, evolution, and to a broader extent the organismal sciences have been predominately white and middle-class fields ever since they stopped being exclusively white and upper-class fields. The current situation makes it insanity for anyone without a strong safety net to pursue a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology, which further limits the diversity of viewpoints that we can bring to our investigations and discussions. I think that will hinder the progress of evolutionary biology, and perhaps these other fields as well. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Jason Hernandez jason.hernande...@yahoo.com wrote: I was one of those who responded offline to the original post. Rather than tell my story again here, I offer further thoughts. Steven Schwartz wrote (in part) Perhaps the question ought to be how much one is willing to sacrifice with the knowledge that you may never achieve your dream. My answer: more than I ever thought I would. But when my savings completely dry up, I have to pay the bills somehow, and if a job completely outside my chosen field finally presents itself, then the question becomes: which risk do I take? Do I risk becoming trapped in that other career track, taking me away from my dream as my degree recedes into the past? Or do I risk becoming a bum on the streets for love of a dream? Because that is the reality some of us face. Every day, I see announcements for really great experiences that are not only unpaid, but in many cases, require the intern to cover his/her own expenses. I don't really care about upward mobility; but if I don't have the money, I cannot be a part of those opportunities, no matter how wonderful they may be in terms of the work being done. Unfortunately, anyone interested particularly in tropical ecosystems will face this situation; I do not remember ever seeing an opening for a paid position in any project in a tropical country. If students coming in knew this, how many would still pursue that path? Who would do these internships, knowing that they essentially are preparing for a career as an intern? The urgency of the situation in the tropics needs quality work, but economic realities tend to turn aspiring researchers away from those parts of the world. Jason Hernandez M.S., East Carolina University -- Date:Sun, 9 Feb 2014 22:40:15 -0500 From:Steven Schwartz drstevenschwa...@aol.com Subject: Re: Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies I=92ll add my two cents. The scarcity of positions is absolutely = nothing new. In the 1980=92s it was not unusual for there to be 300-400 = applicants or more for positions in any kind of organismal biology. It = was during that decade that doing a post-doc in ecology became the norm = as a holding place for the emerging cohort. I don=92t mean to plead a = sad tale, but I was a post-doc at a major lab, published many papers, = and later taught and taught before getting a tenure-track job after way = too many years. I stuck with it, through the tough times, when I = perhaps should have recognized my giving-up-time. I was financially = insecure most of the time but that was price I was willing to pay to = achieve my dream. Perhaps the question ought to be how much one is = willing to sacrifice with the knowledge that you may never achieve your = dream. This isn=92t fair and I, more than most, feel badly for all the = young scientists who won=92t get what they so badly want. And deserve. = But it just won=92t happen for any number of reasons which speak nothing = of the quality of the candidates passed over. As for the preponderance of adjunct or part-time faculty, one only has = to look at the corporate model of governance at most colleges and = universities to see where the real growth in higher education has been. = While the quality of education has been taking hits, the quality, = quantity, and salaries of administrators has been growing enormously. =
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
From the Chronicle of Higher Education. Maybe we should all just become administrators? http://chronicle.com/article/Administrator-Hiring-Drove-28-/144519/ (excerpt below!) February 5, 2014 Administrator Hiring Drove 28% Boom in Higher-Ed Work Force, Report Says By Scott Carlson Thirty-four pages of research, branded with a staid title and rife with complicated graphs, might not seem like a scintillating read, but there's no doubt that a report released on Wednesday will punch higher education's hot buttons in a big way. The report, Labor Intensive or Labor Expensive: Changing Staffing and Compensation Patterns in Higher Education, says that new administrative positions--particularly in student services--drove a 28-percent expansion of the higher-ed work force from 2000 to 2012. The report was released by the Delta Cost Project, http://www.deltacostproject.org/ a nonprofit, nonpartisan social-science organization whose researchers analyze college finances. On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Jane Shevtsov jane@gmail.com wrote: People from comfortable middle-class backgrounds don't know how to be poor. In grad school, other students were complaining about their assistantships, but it was more money than I had ever had. Since graduation, I've alternated between temporary full-time and half-time positions (reasonably well-paid, thanks to the University of California's very active unions, but in a very expensive city), but my family's support and the expectations shaped by my background have made it a good experience. As long as you avoid or minimize undergrad debt, coming from a low-income background can be an advantage in academia. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Cynthia O'Rourke c...@umbc.edu wrote: Jason touches on my primary concern with this situation, other than having a Ph.D. that might eventually enable me to do no better than tech position in the field that I love. Ecology, evolution, and to a broader extent the organismal sciences have been predominately white and middle-class fields ever since they stopped being exclusively white and upper-class fields. The current situation makes it insanity for anyone without a strong safety net to pursue a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology, which further limits the diversity of viewpoints that we can bring to our investigations and discussions. I think that will hinder the progress of evolutionary biology, and perhaps these other fields as well. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Jason Hernandez jason.hernande...@yahoo.com wrote: I was one of those who responded offline to the original post. Rather than tell my story again here, I offer further thoughts. Steven Schwartz wrote (in part) Perhaps the question ought to be how much one is willing to sacrifice with the knowledge that you may never achieve your dream. My answer: more than I ever thought I would. But when my savings completely dry up, I have to pay the bills somehow, and if a job completely outside my chosen field finally presents itself, then the question becomes: which risk do I take? Do I risk becoming trapped in that other career track, taking me away from my dream as my degree recedes into the past? Or do I risk becoming a bum on the streets for love of a dream? Because that is the reality some of us face. Every day, I see announcements for really great experiences that are not only unpaid, but in many cases, require the intern to cover his/her own expenses. I don't really care about upward mobility; but if I don't have the money, I cannot be a part of those opportunities, no matter how wonderful they may be in terms of the work being done. Unfortunately, anyone interested particularly in tropical ecosystems will face this situation; I do not remember ever seeing an opening for a paid position in any project in a tropical country. If students coming in knew this, how many would still pursue that path? Who would do these internships, knowing that they essentially are preparing for a career as an intern? The urgency of the situation in the tropics needs quality work, but economic realities tend to turn aspiring researchers away from those parts of the world. Jason Hernandez M.S., East Carolina University -- Date:Sun, 9 Feb 2014 22:40:15 -0500 From:Steven Schwartz drstevenschwa...@aol.com Subject: Re: Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies I=92ll add my two cents. The scarcity of positions is absolutely = nothing new. In the 1980=92s it was not unusual for there to be 300-400 = applicants or more for positions in any kind of organismal biology. It = was during that decade that doing a post-doc in ecology became the norm = as a holding place for the emerging cohort. I don=92t mean to plead a = sad tale, but I
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
I do not agree with any intent to limit the aspirations of our students. It is not our decision as academics to tell students don't bother, you're not going to ever get a job any more than it is the job of a coach to tell his athletes that they are not Olympic or major league material. I think all of us who have worked with graduate students for some time have seen that many students surprise us - it is not always easy to predict when they walk in the door where their maturity level, intellectual ability, and goals will be when they emerge six years later. I can't always predict where those students will end up, but what I can say is that nearly all of them had a rewarding experience and they gained a wide range of skills in the process. My guess is that if you asked those same individuals if they would do it again if they had the chance to go back and start over, most all of them would say yes. The best we can do is to provide a supportive environment and make our students are aware of the diverse options available - the rest is up to them. Mitch On 2/9/2014 7:34 PM, Michael Garvin wrote: Has anyone established that the reduction in open positions is due to a lack of funds? It seems to me that Universities are fairly flush given the increases in tuition and the overhead charges to grants (over 50% in most cases). That alone has been an eye opener as I’ve been writing grants to try and secure my own funding. Where is that money going? As to some of the other comments: Academia is not the only option. There are jobs at government agencies (although that sector is dead now as well), biotech, non-profits, etc, so getting a Ph.D. in ecology (or genetics in my case) is not a waste of time if you don’t end up in academia. I think the limiting of graduate students produced by professors is already happening - because the grants are drying up to fund the graduate students. It would seem to me to be a more efficient system if you have two tracks - teaching and research, or at least reduce teaching loads for those who’s passion is research. But I’m guessing that has been a topic of discussion in the past. My two cents. Michael Garvin, PhD University of Alaska Fairbanks School of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences 17101 Point Lena Loop Road Juneau, AK 99801 907-796-5455 mrgar...@alaska.edu On Feb 9, 2014, at 5:51 PM, David Duffy ddu...@hawaii.edu wrote: If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with more security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be fully supported by fellowships. With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the number of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) to allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund projects with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should also support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting more people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about how to retain them. David
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
I think its 99% money at the department level. I have been last hired last fired scenario after budget issues three schools strait. First school, in my first year I had more grants than anyone in the department, two MS students. Second year, budgets hit the fan, I was let go. Second school, budgets were in really good shape from 2005 - 2009. I got promoted early to Assoc. Prof, published a pile of papers, including one in 2007 that is a highly cited manuscript, and as the only full faculty member in the department saw student performance rise every year. The average student scored below the 1%ile on the ETS major field exam for the entire time before I arrived, they had never had a student enter MD school, only one entered grad school. Scores rose every single year until by 2010, 55% of graduates who took my classes in those key areas were above the 70%ile nationwide, and in ecology, 33% were above the 90th%ile. I went up for early tenure in 2008, they lost my tenure portfolio in the middle of impending budgetary issues due to a new funding formula combined with restructuring of the administration, closing of our satellite program. During this mess, the biology program accrued ex-admin and a tenured prof from the other campus to give us twice the faculty the program's enrollment would support. So they let me go. Not much else they could do! So, then I find a NTT at-will position at school # 3. This place was a great place to work. I had unofficial offer letters through Aug. 2014. In April, a financial audit took place, and the dumped at least 6 faculty lines from what I can tell, re-hired 2, and the chair retired. This was in May 2013. By Aug 2013, I got lucky, and found an adjunct position, and that morphed into a Temporary Assistant Professor position for the spring. But, its 100% temporary. So, now comes Fall 2014. Who knows what happens next. But, the time line from Katrina through the housing bubble and the Bush Wars, through the Great Recession really hurt academia. In fact, you can see a peak in job ads immediately after the end of the GR. To add to this, the people who would have retired, had their accounts killed by this series of events, and they are suffering too. I dont' hold any grudges, really. The chairs, and admin did what they had to do when faced with difficult decisions. When you see every staff member released, and departments sharing secretaries to save $$, you know they are hurting. I was just hoping my last post would last 1 year longer so my spouse could finisher her MS. Well, that kind of transpired in that I snagged the temp position. So here I am, I just got pub #100 this month, with 3 out of my last 4 papers in top tier conservation and ecotoxicology journals, a decent grant record, heck I used to be a director of grants at a not-for-profit, and I'm trying to find a job! this is not a sob story. Its just the way things are. I'm still way better off now than before I got my PHD, and as a rule, I'm pretty darn happy. I would be a lot happier if I did not have to redesign my life every 2-5 years!!! :) On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Michael Garvin mrgar...@alaska.edu wrote: Has anyone established that the reduction in open positions is due to a lack of funds? It seems to me that Universities are fairly flush given the increases in tuition and the overhead charges to grants (over 50% in most cases). That alone has been an eye opener as I've been writing grants to try and secure my own funding. Where is that money going? As to some of the other comments: Academia is not the only option. There are jobs at government agencies (although that sector is dead now as well), biotech, non-profits, etc, so getting a Ph.D. in ecology (or genetics in my case) is not a waste of time if you don't end up in academia. I think the limiting of graduate students produced by professors is already happening - because the grants are drying up to fund the graduate students. It would seem to me to be a more efficient system if you have two tracks - teaching and research, or at least reduce teaching loads for those who's passion is research. But I'm guessing that has been a topic of discussion in the past. My two cents. Michael Garvin, PhD University of Alaska Fairbanks School of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences 17101 Point Lena Loop Road Juneau, AK 99801 907-796-5455 mrgar...@alaska.edu On Feb 9, 2014, at 5:51 PM, David Duffy ddu...@hawaii.edu wrote: If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 seems to be ignored in this discussion. If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with more security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be fully supported by fellowships. With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the number of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) to allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund projects with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should also support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting more people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about how to retain them. David Duffy On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm Hmmm . I was an academic biologist for 35+ years, after the time spent preparing. I cannot recall a time when there were hundreds of positions open for 2 or 3 Ph.D. candidates graduating each year. I do recall a good many times when the opposite was true. David McNeely -- Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit Botany University of Hawaii 3190 Maile Way Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA 1-808-956-8218
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
There are obviously non-academic jobs for people, with the quantities and opportunities depending on the field in which the PhD was obtained. However, people need to realize that it is usually just as difficult, if not more so, to get some of these non-academic jobs as it is a tt job. For example, many environmental consulting firms only require a BS or MS degree. However, nearly all require previous consulting experience and substantial familiarity with state and federal regulations. These are NOT skills we are likely to acquire when pursuing a PhD in the life sciences. Second, in contrast to tt academic jobs, many companies tend to hire locally. Why hire a PhD from out of state and pay them more versus hire someone locally with a BS who has previous consulting experience? State and federal jobs can also be just as competitive as tt jobs. I recently applied for a curator position at the Smithsonian and am guessing that they received 500 applications. In sum, there are other opportunities for PhDs besides academia, but we cannot kid ourselves into thinking that pursing alternate careers will be much easier. Chris On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:00 AM, Judith S. Weis jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu wrote: The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 seems to be ignored in this discussion. If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with more security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be fully supported by fellowships. With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the number of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) to allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund projects with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should also support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting more people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about how to retain them. David Duffy On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
As a newly graduating PhD with a K12 teaching credential, I can attest that there are not many jobs for new PhDs outside of academia. I am looking in all sectors except consulting, but I'm not qualified as a consultant. My only interview so far has been with a non-profit, where I was one of hundreds of applicants. The few ecology-related government jobs that came up this year (for PhDs) also had hundreds of applicants. I've maintained my teaching credential in case I need to return to teaching high school, but most school districts within the state have been under a hiring freeze or are laying off staff, even in science and math. With most of these jobs, one must pick between good or rewarding. Starting salaries for K12 teachers is about $35k-$45k in California and it is an incredibly difficult job. I truly love my PhD work and I would like to continue doing research. It's challenging and rewarding, and I believe it has real benefit to society. However the bleak prospects in this field have been discouraging to say the least. Thank you to those who are participating in this discussion. I would love to see this discussion posted more publicly, perhaps a blog with open commenting, because our colleagues in other fields are all struggling with these same issues. The broader academic community might benefit by sharing our thoughts and ideas on this problem. -Anne On Mon Feb 10 06:00:50 2014, Judith S. Weis wrote: The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 seems to be ignored in this discussion. If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with more security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be fully supported by fellowships. With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the number of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) to allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund projects with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should also support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting more people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about how to retain them. David Duffy On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
As someone who has worked in both academia and for a Federal government agency, I can attest to what Chris just posted. Getting a permanent position (at a Ph.D. Level) in a science agency is possibly as difficult as getting a tenure-track position at a university--maybe more so in some cases. However, such jobs do add to the range of possibilities for a graduate. Also, if you have only a BS or MS, there are many more possibilities in government than for a Ph.D. It's also true that non-academic jobs are highly competitive with hundreds of applicants. What can give someone an edge is having had an internship during undergraduate or graduate school, even an unpaid one, with a science agency. You learn the ropes, get some training, and also make important contacts. I had dozens of undergraduate interns from the local university, mostly paid, but I did accept summer volunteers who really wanted the experience of doing research in my lab. I was usually able to find some funds to help even those without a funded position, but the real value was the exposure they got and the contacts they made. I've written many letters of reference for these interns when they later applied for graduate school or jobs. A few went on to get jobs in my agency through me or other contacts they made. If you are in graduate school, take the initiative to get the experience that will qualify you for jobs with state and Federal agencies, consulting firms, and/or NGOs, even if your goal is an academic position. Make contacts in whatever agency or other labs that occur in your area; even volunteer to help with a project. You can also meet government scientists and consultants at science conferences and ask them for information about jobs or advice on how to apply. Even if you are dead set on an academic position, you need to have a good fallback plan. And who knows? You might discover that a non-academic job better suits you. In general, develop better skills at something that sets you apart from all the other candidates with similar degrees and training, for example, in science communication or media, which many science agencies and companies value. That's just one example. Find out what skills, in addition to the basic graduate training you receive, that you might need to land a job with a particular science agency, company, or NGO. K.L. McKee http://thescientistvideographer.com/wordpress
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
I don't think its being ignored. EPA and other federal jobs are highly variable in availability. Right now is a clear down turn, and with the cuts to the EPA in the recent budget, don't count on much there. Highschool teaching is not a realistic option for a PHD, it can be for a masters level candidate. PHDs will cost the school too much. Supposedly there are those mythical highschools in the rich districts that hire PHDs to teach their classes. I have never seen one of these schools, I've never met anyone who teaches at one, and I may have once seen an advert for one. State jobs can be had, but again, they would prefer to hire an MS. Moving on to a PHD is a big step, and it both expands and limits your possiblities. Probably the best choice for a PHD in environmental science (financially) is consulting with a firm or without. Of course, if you freelance, you need to know how to do bidding, manage your finances, and keep records, SOPs, and maintain QA/QC. M On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:00 AM, Judith S. Weis jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu wrote: The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 seems to be ignored in this discussion. If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with more security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be fully supported by fellowships. With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the number of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) to allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund projects with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should also support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting more people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about how to retain them. David Duffy On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
To contribute to the conversation of the difficulty of obtaining non-academic employment, I offer an abridged version of my personal experience. I have over 11 years experience as a field biologist, mainly working as a seasonal tech doing field work for universities, graduate students and government agencies. I went to grad school for a master's degree because I was tired of just being the grunt labor and wanted to be involved in the rest of the process. Since getting my master's in Aug 2010, I have gone back to seasonal work for 2 field seasons, been a project hire biologist for a consulting company for 1.5 years, and been largely unemployed for the remaining 1.5 years. I am currently on the payroll as an on-call biologist at 6, yes 6, different consulting companies and 1 national park. I have applied to upwards of 100 positions throughout the west with government agencies, non-profits and consulting companies. In my experience, with the plethora of biologists to chose from, environmental consulting companies are hiring less permanent, full-time biologists for their staff and instead stocking up on on-call biologists since they don't have to provide benefits to them and those positions will always be billable to a client (no overhead costs). When there is a dearth of jobs in one arena, this transfers over to other employers in the same field. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:31 AM, Christopher Blair blair@gmail.comwrote: There are obviously non-academic jobs for people, with the quantities and opportunities depending on the field in which the PhD was obtained. However, people need to realize that it is usually just as difficult, if not more so, to get some of these non-academic jobs as it is a tt job. For example, many environmental consulting firms only require a BS or MS degree. However, nearly all require previous consulting experience and substantial familiarity with state and federal regulations. These are NOT skills we are likely to acquire when pursuing a PhD in the life sciences. Second, in contrast to tt academic jobs, many companies tend to hire locally. Why hire a PhD from out of state and pay them more versus hire someone locally with a BS who has previous consulting experience? State and federal jobs can also be just as competitive as tt jobs. I recently applied for a curator position at the Smithsonian and am guessing that they received 500 applications. In sum, there are other opportunities for PhDs besides academia, but we cannot kid ourselves into thinking that pursing alternate careers will be much easier. Chris On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:00 AM, Judith S. Weis jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu wrote: The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 seems to be ignored in this discussion. If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
It needs to be pointed out that PHD and MS advisors in general are not culprits. Most of them I have known are interested in helping students realize a future as a professor, researcher, or whatever direction it is that a student is pursuing. The concerns many are voicing here are representative of a larger problem that transcends even the subject matter and job setting. The employment situation for most disciplines, from car mechanic to physicist is largely in the tank. Further, outside of a short period surrounding the turn of the century when the Y2K bug sucked tons of folks off the job market and fueled the economy, it has stunk it up for a long tiem. Essentially, I argue that the job market has been fairly flat in America since the Vietnam War. The small punctuations of prosperity were largely coincidence in connection with odd occurrences like Y2K and largely, nothing has been done in the US to help with this problem. Sometimes, we as academics forget that its not just us trying to find jobs. Its every sector, except for politicians. I'ld say, politics is the place to be for job security. You are guaranteed 2 years as a rep, 4 yrs as a president, 6 yrs as a senator so long as you don't do something demanding impeachment, and even then you might not be removed. Something to think about. Malcolm On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Karen Weber karen.lucille.we...@gmail.comwrote: To contribute to the conversation of the difficulty of obtaining non-academic employment, I offer an abridged version of my personal experience. I have over 11 years experience as a field biologist, mainly working as a seasonal tech doing field work for universities, graduate students and government agencies. I went to grad school for a master's degree because I was tired of just being the grunt labor and wanted to be involved in the rest of the process. Since getting my master's in Aug 2010, I have gone back to seasonal work for 2 field seasons, been a project hire biologist for a consulting company for 1.5 years, and been largely unemployed for the remaining 1.5 years. I am currently on the payroll as an on-call biologist at 6, yes 6, different consulting companies and 1 national park. I have applied to upwards of 100 positions throughout the west with government agencies, non-profits and consulting companies. In my experience, with the plethora of biologists to chose from, environmental consulting companies are hiring less permanent, full-time biologists for their staff and instead stocking up on on-call biologists since they don't have to provide benefits to them and those positions will always be billable to a client (no overhead costs). When there is a dearth of jobs in one arena, this transfers over to other employers in the same field. On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:31 AM, Christopher Blair blair@gmail.com wrote: There are obviously non-academic jobs for people, with the quantities and opportunities depending on the field in which the PhD was obtained. However, people need to realize that it is usually just as difficult, if not more so, to get some of these non-academic jobs as it is a tt job. For example, many environmental consulting firms only require a BS or MS degree. However, nearly all require previous consulting experience and substantial familiarity with state and federal regulations. These are NOT skills we are likely to acquire when pursuing a PhD in the life sciences. Second, in contrast to tt academic jobs, many companies tend to hire locally. Why hire a PhD from out of state and pay them more versus hire someone locally with a BS who has previous consulting experience? State and federal jobs can also be just as competitive as tt jobs. I recently applied for a curator position at the Smithsonian and am guessing that they received 500 applications. In sum, there are other opportunities for PhDs besides academia, but we cannot kid ourselves into thinking that pursing alternate careers will be much easier. Chris On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:00 AM, Judith S. Weis jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu wrote: The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 seems to be ignored in this discussion. If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses,
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Yes, the lousy US job market as a whole is a problem, and has been since late 2008. This has been the slowest recovery on record since WWII. But let's keep four things in mind re the topic at hand: 1. Attempts by anti-tax, libertarian and hard-right groups to cut investment in education are succeeding. For the nation, this is a catastrophe. The folks posting here are focusing on the impact on would-be tenure-track professors. That impact, outside the top-flight universities, has been disastrous. Highly trained people are being reduced to serfdom as increasing budget shares of the down-market colleges (and, heaven forfend, the for-profit institutions) are being devoted to adjunct faculty, which earn a pittance and get no benefits. What's the solution for health care and retirement for people accepting such jobs? PowerBall?? For students, the right-wing slashing of educational budgets is creating an even greater disaster – the titanic overhang of student debt. If this issue isn't dealt with, and soon, it will replace health care as the worst problem in the US economy that a certain political party refuses to address while drawing their own paychecks (and payoffs). Over the past 30 years, shifting such a burden from the taxpayers to students, at the beginning of their productive lives, is the ultimate I've-got-mine-bug-off-if-you-want-me-to-contribute-to-the-next-generation-of-workers-and-voters attitude. It's hard to see how the present system can sustain itself much longer. It is going to result either in massive defaults (which can't be avoided via bankruptcy) or in massive cuts to the entire system of higher education. This is happening while the private sector attempts to covertly seize the entire public school system ... albeit so slowly, through charter schools and failing public schools in poor neighborhoods first, that no one protests. 2. Demonization of public employees as a whole is contributing to this disaster. At this point, even at the flagship University of Wisconsin-Madison campus, such demonization ... and cuts in benefits, elimination of almost all raises over the past five years ... means that full professors are being paid, on average, roughly 20% less than their peers elsewhere. To those who are being hosed down as adjunct professors, this might not sound too bad, but morale is rapidly eroding and at some point we could lose large numbers of top faculty – and the quality of the UW as a whole – in a very short time. 3. In many jobs, the flat real salaries for non-CEOs, non-administrators has led to people to work more years before retiring; this was exacerbated by the effect of the Great Recession on IRAs and other retirement accounts. But one peculiarity of the faculty job market makes retirements even rarer – the US Supreme Court forbade universities from setting mandatory retirement ages for the professorate. So, while our colleagues in Europe and Australia faced early, imposed retirement, which does have the advantage of freeing up positions for young folks to fill, that is not happening here. Not that, as someone who remains very engaged and productive in my 60s, I personally want to see that policy changed. But it's there and it does have an effect. 4. Economists are divided as to why this recovery has been so slow. Certainly Krugman has argued that we ought to be running higher deficits when real interest rates are essentially zero so as to re-employ people now for its macroeconomic benefits and to save people before they've become tainted by having been unemployed too long. The Party of No, however, doesn't believe in science generally, and apparently is ignorant of macroeconomics, and the other party has lacked the will and the compelling power of argument to do anything about it. Personally, I think the problem is free trade, which essentially means a race to the bottom for American workers. Yes, PhDs in India are not yet snagging internet professorial chairs. But they and other highly educated groups in the Third World are indeed competing successfully for other jobs in our economy, and this is having a negative effect on the kinds of investments we can make in our own human capital. Moral of the story: there are a limited number of national and international policies responsible for the awful predicament in which many professionals in academics find themselves. Whether each of us has a job or not, if we do not express our opinions, vote, and organize politically to overcome disastrous policies, we are partly complicit in our economic undoing. TJ Givnish On 02/10/14, Malcolm McCallum wrote: It needs to be pointed out that PHD and MS advisors in general are not culprits. Most of them I have known are interested in helping students realize a future as a professor, researcher, or whatever direction it is that a student is pursuing. The concerns many are voicing here are representative of a larger problem
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate students), and 55 for women. When I asked a female faculty member about that in a visit to China 2 years ago, she seemed very accepting of the idea that opportunities had to be opened for young scientists. My department is running a search for 2-3 new faculty members this semester, and advertised an open-rank open-area opportunity. 650 applied (I reviewed 250 applications), and we're interviewing 6. One is an ecologist. I know of a search for a theoretical ecology position this spring at another university, and I think about 55 applied. I may put together an article about these searches later this spring. David Inouye At 10:20 AM 2/9/2014, you wrote: I've already received many, many replies in the first 48 hours since I posted my request. I've heard from more people than I can easily count--recent Ph.D.s, graduate students, even undergraduates with difficult stories of hard work, perseverance, and increasing despair that they will ever find work in the disciplines they've trained for. I will do my best to respond to everyone who's contacted me; if you haven't heard from me yet, it's only because there are so many others who have also poured out their fears and their frustrations. There are a great many people in our field who have found their calling, earned their degree, and now can find no way to support themselves--the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. Because many of you have expressed concerns about privacy, let me say that I won't share names, affiliations or any other identifying details unless the individuals involved grant their permission. If you or a friend have been hesitating out of personal concerns, please know that I consider every contact a confidence, and I don't intend to break that trust. - J. A. John A. omnipithe...@yahoo.com
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Since women generally live longer than men, what reason, aside from discrimination, does China have for requiring them to retire 5 years earlier? In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate students), and 55 for women. When I asked a female faculty member about that in a visit to China 2 years ago, she seemed very accepting of the idea that opportunities had to be opened for young scientists. My department is running a search for 2-3 new faculty members this semester, and advertised an open-rank open-area opportunity. 650 applied (I reviewed 250 applications), and we're interviewing 6. One is an ecologist. I know of a search for a theoretical ecology position this spring at another university, and I think about 55 applied. I may put together an article about these searches later this spring. David Inouye At 10:20 AM 2/9/2014, you wrote: I've already received many, many replies in the first 48 hours since I posted my request. I've heard from more people than I can easily count--recent Ph.D.s, graduate students, even undergraduates with difficult stories of hard work, perseverance, and increasing despair that they will ever find work in the disciplines they've trained for. I will do my best to respond to everyone who's contacted me; if you haven't heard from me yet, it's only because there are so many others who have also poured out their fears and their frustrations. There are a great many people in our field who have found their calling, earned their degree, and now can find no way to support themselves--the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. Because many of you have expressed concerns about privacy, let me say that I won't share names, affiliations or any other identifying details unless the individuals involved grant their permission. If you or a friend have been hesitating out of personal concerns, please know that I consider every contact a confidence, and I don't intend to break that trust. - J. A. John A. omnipithe...@yahoo.com
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Rather than a rather arbritrary age-based cutoff, why not allow attrition based on lack of productivity? ie: if a department thinks they can get a better crop of faculty, why not allow them to let some go in favor of departmental improvement? (yes, this would probably mean an end to, or at least a substantial modification of, tenure). https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 On 2/9/2014 1:46 PM, Judith S. Weis wrote: Since women generally live longer than men, what reason, aside from discrimination, does China have for requiring them to retire 5 years earlier? In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate students), and 55 for women. When I asked a female faculty member about that in a visit to China 2 years ago, she seemed very accepting of the idea that opportunities had to be opened for young scientists. My department is running a search for 2-3 new faculty members this semester, and advertised an open-rank open-area opportunity. 650 applied (I reviewed 250 applications), and we're interviewing 6. One is an ecologist. I know of a search for a theoretical ecology position this spring at another university, and I think about 55 applied. I may put together an article about these searches later this spring. David Inouye At 10:20 AM 2/9/2014, you wrote: I've already received many, many replies in the first 48 hours since I posted my request. I've heard from more people than I can easily count--recent Ph.D.s, graduate students, even undergraduates with difficult stories of hard work, perseverance, and increasing despair that they will ever find work in the disciplines they've trained for. I will do my best to respond to everyone who's contacted me; if you haven't heard from me yet, it's only because there are so many others who have also poured out their fears and their frustrations. There are a great many people in our field who have found their calling, earned their degree, and now can find no way to support themselves--the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. Because many of you have expressed concerns about privacy, let me say that I won't share names, affiliations or any other identifying details unless the individuals involved grant their permission. If you or a friend have been hesitating out of personal concerns, please know that I consider every contact a confidence, and I don't intend to break that trust. - J. A. John A. omnipithe...@yahoo.com ATD of ATB and ISI -- Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs Inc. Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs https://www.facebook.com/InvertebrateStudiesInstitute 1-352-281-3643
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Wouldn't there be many more postdocs than adjuncts fitting this description (and possibly on food stamps)? https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 On 2/9/2014 10:20 AM, John A. wrote: -the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. ATD of ATB and ISI -- Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs Inc. Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs https://www.facebook.com/InvertebrateStudiesInstitute 1-352-281-3643
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
The best solution imho, but trust the older administrative types to not implement such a policy because it will affect them the most, just like in our political scene. Well we can hope though ! On 9 February 2014 13:57, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: Rather than a rather arbritrary age-based cutoff, why not allow attrition based on lack of productivity? ie: if a department thinks they can get a better crop of faculty, why not allow them to let some go in favor of departmental improvement? (yes, this would probably mean an end to, or at least a substantial modification of, tenure). https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 On 2/9/2014 1:46 PM, Judith S. Weis wrote: Since women generally live longer than men, what reason, aside from discrimination, does China have for requiring them to retire 5 years earlier? In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate students), and 55 for women. When I asked a female faculty member about that in a visit to China 2 years ago, she seemed very accepting of the idea that opportunities had to be opened for young scientists. My department is running a search for 2-3 new faculty members this semester, and advertised an open-rank open-area opportunity. 650 applied (I reviewed 250 applications), and we're interviewing 6. One is an ecologist. I know of a search for a theoretical ecology position this spring at another university, and I think about 55 applied. I may put together an article about these searches later this spring. David Inouye At 10:20 AM 2/9/2014, you wrote: I've already received many, many replies in the first 48 hours since I posted my request. I've heard from more people than I can easily count--recent Ph.D.s, graduate students, even undergraduates with difficult stories of hard work, perseverance, and increasing despair that they will ever find work in the disciplines they've trained for. I will do my best to respond to everyone who's contacted me; if you haven't heard from me yet, it's only because there are so many others who have also poured out their fears and their frustrations. There are a great many people in our field who have found their calling, earned their degree, and now can find no way to support themselves--the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. Because many of you have expressed concerns about privacy, let me say that I won't share names, affiliations or any other identifying details unless the individuals involved grant their permission. If you or a friend have been hesitating out of personal concerns, please know that I consider every contact a confidence, and I don't intend to break that trust. - J. A. John A. omnipithe...@yahoo.com ATD of ATB and ISI -- Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs Inc. Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs https://www.facebook.com/InvertebrateStudiesInstitute 1-352-281-3643
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
This is a painful, poignant but necessary discussion that academic biologists in general need to keep in mind. I would add another question: how many retirees academic biology retirees are living (partially) on food stamps as well..? I know a couple in just my own area. At first, to many on this list, this question will probably seem of less interest than the others. After all, retirees have presumably had fulfilling careers and ended them voluntarily, right? Not necessarily. Post-tenure reviews of various types are in place at a large number of institutions (here in Virginia, for instance, state-run institutions literally HAD to put such a system in place in the 1990's in order to save the tenure system itself). The threat of going through such a process, particularly in public, is a clear-cut motivation for (unwanted and unplanned) early retirement as an alternative... Yet, as biologist age, very often so do their research careers; despite their best efforts, the funding dries to a trickle, any new grad students they might attract need to be supported by departmental rather than grant monies (and it doesn't take a genius to guess how long that lasts, or how much ill will it engenders). Eventually, pressure develops to find a way to get so-and-so quietly out the door, in favor of a young investigator with a more fashionable research topic... So, so-and-so retires, still with more potentially productive research (and teaching) years left that now will remain untapped, and often years earlier than his/her financial retirement planning had projected. This is happening now, and I predict it will happen with increasing frequency in the near-term future as both academic departments and granting agencies concentrate their enthusiasm on the few younger investigators who make it through the obstacle course. Young people who have found their calling and see themselves on a trajectory toward a career in academic biology need to know that this can happen. Just like they need to know that they may not get that critical first job no matter how long they persevere, and may come to consider themselves lucky to get a third or a fourth postdoc. Just like they need to know that, even if they get that first job, in many departments they had better come up with major funding by the middle of their third year or there likely won't be a fourth. Perhaps there is a simpler way to put this: We have to make sure that the young people entering our profession, a pool that, by definition, includes our best and most creative intellects, really understand that a doctoral degree, no matter how expensively earned in terms of personal costs, and no matter how strongly emblematic of a deep and abiding personal commitment, is, when all is said and done, (and with apologies for the cliche) nothing more than a union card. It is not a guarantee of a job, financial security, a particular lifestyle, the certainty of a life devoted to creativity and scholarship or even of a secure retirement. On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:20 AM, John A. omnipithe...@yahoo.com wrote: I've already received many, many replies in the first 48 hours since I posted my request. I've heard from more people than I can easily count--recent Ph.D.s, graduate students, even undergraduates with difficult stories of hard work, perseverance, and increasing despair that they will ever find work in the disciplines they've trained for. I will do my best to respond to everyone who's contacted me; if you haven't heard from me yet, it's only because there are so many others who have also poured out their fears and their frustrations. There are a great many people in our field who have found their calling, earned their degree, and now can find no way to support themselves--the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. Because many of you have expressed concerns about privacy, let me say that I won't share names, affiliations or any other identifying details unless the individuals involved grant their permission. If you or a friend have been hesitating out of personal concerns, please know that I consider every contact a confidence, and I don't intend to break that trust. - J. A.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm *Kevin Klein [image: True Blue] http://www.ic.edu/* Professor of Economics Program Coordinator- Environmental Biology and Ecological Studies Co-Chair - Environmental Program Development Committee Illinois College 1101 West College Avenue Jacksonville, IL 62650 217.245.3474 Survey of Economics, 4e, by Dolan and Kleinhttp://www.bvtstudents.com/details.php?25, 2010, BVT Publishing, http://www.ic.edu/ http://webmail.ic.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.ic.edu/ My Web page http://www2.ic.edu/klein On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Judith S. Weis jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu wrote: Since women generally live longer than men, what reason, aside from discrimination, does China have for requiring them to retire 5 years earlier? In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate students), and 55 for women. When I asked a female faculty member about that in a visit to China 2 years ago, she seemed very accepting of the idea that opportunities had to be opened for young scientists. My department is running a search for 2-3 new faculty members this semester, and advertised an open-rank open-area opportunity. 650 applied (I reviewed 250 applications), and we're interviewing 6. One is an ecologist. I know of a search for a theoretical ecology position this spring at another university, and I think about 55 applied. I may put together an article about these searches later this spring. David Inouye At 10:20 AM 2/9/2014, you wrote: I've already received many, many replies in the first 48 hours since I posted my request. I've heard from more people than I can easily count--recent Ph.D.s, graduate students, even undergraduates with difficult stories of hard work, perseverance, and increasing despair that they will ever find work in the disciplines they've trained for. I will do my best to respond to everyone who's contacted me; if you haven't heard from me yet, it's only because there are so many others who have also poured out their fears and their frustrations. There are a great many people in our field who have found their calling, earned their degree, and now can find no way to support themselves--the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. Because many of you have expressed concerns about privacy, let me say that I won't share names, affiliations or any other identifying details unless the individuals involved grant their permission. If you or a friend have been hesitating out of personal concerns, please know that I consider every contact a confidence, and I don't intend to break that trust. - J. A. John A. omnipithe...@yahoo.com
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm Hmmm . I was an academic biologist for 35+ years, after the time spent preparing. I cannot recall a time when there were hundreds of positions open for 2 or 3 Ph.D. candidates graduating each year. I do recall a good many times when the opposite was true. David McNeely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
One thing that would help a lot would be to get rid of the system of unpaid and underpaid internships and make those real-paying jobs. Many graduates at all levels of education find themselves in a position where the majority of positions available are internships, more and more of which require graduate degrees to participate in. If even a portion of the internships were shifted to paying positions it would mitigate the economic woes of graduates tremendously and the work done would increase in quality as well. Neahga Leonard *There is not just a whole world to explore, there is a whole universe to explore, perhaps more than one.* http://writingfornature.wordpress.com/ On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 12:57 PM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm Hmmm . I was an academic biologist for 35+ years, after the time spent preparing. I cannot recall a time when there were hundreds of positions open for 2 or 3 Ph.D. candidates graduating each year. I do recall a good many times when the opposite was true. David McNeely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Exactly! Unfortunately, the academic pyramid structure has made itself far too dependent on cheap temporary labor of students and postdocs. So, they continue to wave the career carrot out there, with no intention to reform the system in a way that makes the carrot real. In reality, the new PhD student recruitment should be cut to 1/10 the current size, or less if compared to the PhD-requiring career opportunities. HOWEVER: The NEED for PhD level skill in science (which can easily be achieved with a bachelors and/or masters plus 1-3 years of experience in the real world) exists - we still need a lot more scientists in the world doing great science, but the current house of cards is unsustainable and does not even provide for more scientists doing great science even of students and postdocs were willing to work the remainder of their lives in the current system, or for free! Even beyond the deplorable career prospects and stability of pay (STABILITY matters!), legitimate creative outlets are extremely limited - ie: rights to one's own work and ideas - a creativity motivation killer. On 2/9/2014 2:59 PM, Kevin Klein wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm *Kevin Klein [image: True Blue] http://www.ic.edu/* Professor of Economics Program Coordinator- Environmental Biology and Ecological Studies Co-Chair - Environmental Program Development Committee Illinois College 1101 West College Avenue Jacksonville, IL 62650 217.245.3474 Survey of Economics, 4e, by Dolan and Kleinhttp://www.bvtstudents.com/details.php?25, 2010, BVT Publishing, http://www.ic.edu/ http://webmail.ic.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.ic.edu/ My Web page http://www2.ic.edu/klein On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Judith S. Weis jw...@andromeda.rutgers.edu wrote: Since women generally live longer than men, what reason, aside from discrimination, does China have for requiring them to retire 5 years earlier? In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate students), and 55 for women. When I asked a female faculty member about that in a visit to China 2 years ago, she seemed very accepting of the idea that opportunities had to be opened for young scientists. My department is running a search for 2-3 new faculty members this semester, and advertised an open-rank open-area opportunity. 650 applied (I reviewed 250 applications), and we're interviewing 6. One is an ecologist. I know of a search for a theoretical ecology position this spring at another university, and I think about 55 applied. I may put together an article about these searches later this spring. David Inouye At 10:20 AM 2/9/2014, you wrote: I've already received many, many replies in the first 48 hours since I posted my request. I've heard from more people than I can easily count--recent Ph.D.s, graduate students, even undergraduates with difficult stories of hard work, perseverance, and increasing despair that they will ever find work in the disciplines they've trained for. I will do my best to respond to everyone who's contacted me; if you haven't heard from me yet, it's only because there are so many others who have also poured out their fears and their frustrations. There are a great many people in our field who have found their calling, earned their degree, and now can find no way to support themselves--the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. Because many of you have expressed concerns about privacy, let me say that I won't share names, affiliations or any other identifying details unless the individuals involved grant their permission. If you or a friend have been hesitating out of personal concerns, please know that I consider every contact a confidence, and I don't intend to break that trust. - J. A. John A. omnipithe...@yahoo.com ATD of ATB and ISI -- Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs Inc. Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Well, the adjunct positions, a fancy word for part-time jobs, are the main problem at the Ph.D. level. A majority of credit hours at some institutions are taught in that way. At community colleges there are often only a handful of full-time faculty, with part-time teaching almost all the courses. Some four year schools have gotten onto the same track. Twenty years ago it was a beneficial thing to both the institution and those who wanted to teach a course while pursuing another full-time position, or to a person who wanted to teach a course while caring for children. The institution benefited because it could fill out a schedule when there were not enough additional courses to make for a full teaching load for another faculty member. But institutions came to see it not as a way to fill out a course schedule, but as a way to avoid the expense of full-time faculty. At many institutions, part-time faculty really dilute quality, because they are not even provided an office to work out of and to meet with students. Meanwhile, there are many available, quality Ph.D. holders who would be very glad to get the work and would do a great job as full-time faculty members. A major cause of this situation for state institutions is the drive by state governments to reduce the funding to higher education, mostly driven by anti-tax political groups. Neahga Leonard naturalistkni...@gmail.com wrote: One thing that would help a lot would be to get rid of the system of unpaid and underpaid internships and make those real-paying jobs. Many graduates at all levels of education find themselves in a position where the majority of positions available are internships, more and more of which require graduate degrees to participate in. If even a portion of the internships were shifted to paying positions it would mitigate the economic woes of graduates tremendously and the work done would increase in quality as well. Neahga Leonard *There is not just a whole world to explore, there is a whole universe to explore, perhaps more than one.* http://writingfornature.wordpress.com/ On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 12:57 PM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm Hmmm . I was an academic biologist for 35+ years, after the time spent preparing. I cannot recall a time when there were hundreds of positions open for 2 or 3 Ph.D. candidates graduating each year. I do recall a good many times when the opposite was true. David McNeely -- David McNeely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Its more than a way to lower costs.
Its a way to weaken faculty governance.
On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 5:15 PM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote:
Well, the adjunct positions, a fancy word for part-time jobs, are the
main problem at the Ph.D. level. A majority of credit hours at some
institutions are taught in that way. At community colleges there are often
only a handful of full-time faculty, with part-time teaching almost all the
courses. Some four year schools have gotten onto the same track.
Twenty years ago it was a beneficial thing to both the institution and
those who wanted to teach a course while pursuing another full-time
position, or to a person who wanted to teach a course while caring for
children. The institution benefited because it could fill out a schedule
when there were not enough additional courses to make for a full teaching
load for another faculty member. But institutions came to see it not as a
way to fill out a course schedule, but as a way to avoid the expense of
full-time faculty. At many institutions, part-time faculty really dilute
quality, because they are not even provided an office to work out of and to
meet with students. Meanwhile, there are many available, quality Ph.D.
holders who would be very glad to get the work and would do a great job as
full-time faculty members.
A major cause of this situation for state institutions is the drive by
state governments to reduce the funding to higher education, mostly driven
by anti-tax political groups.
Neahga Leonard naturalistkni...@gmail.com wrote:
One thing that would help a lot would be to get rid of the system of
unpaid
and underpaid internships and make those real-paying jobs. Many
graduates
at all levels of education find themselves in a position where the
majority
of positions available are internships, more and more of which require
graduate degrees to participate in. If even a portion of the internships
were shifted to paying positions it would mitigate the economic woes of
graduates tremendously and the work done would increase in quality as
well.
Neahga Leonard
*There is not just a whole world to explore, there is a whole universe to
explore, perhaps more than one.*
http://writingfornature.wordpress.com/
On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 12:57 PM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net
wrote:
Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote:
I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw
from
what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with
students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them
to
consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing,
they
make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the
possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career
journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD
markets
in
recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the
reported 2
or
3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open
for
the
2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our
students of the job market realities. One place a student might
look for
this information can be found here.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm
Hmmm . I was an academic biologist for 35+ years, after the time
spent preparing. I cannot recall a time when there were hundreds of
positions open for 2 or 3 Ph.D. candidates graduating each year. I do
recall a good many times when the opposite was true.
David McNeely
--
David McNeely
--
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University of Illinois at Springfield
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Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with more security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be fully supported by fellowships. With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the number of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) to allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund projects with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should also support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting more people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about how to retain them. David Duffy On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm Hmmm . I was an academic biologist for 35+ years, after the time spent preparing. I cannot recall a time when there were hundreds of positions open for 2 or 3 Ph.D. candidates graduating each year. I do recall a good many times when the opposite was true. David McNeely -- Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit Botany University of Hawaii 3190 Maile Way Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA 1-808-956-8218
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
I’ll add my two cents. The scarcity of positions is absolutely nothing new. In the 1980’s it was not unusual for there to be 300-400 applicants or more for positions in any kind of organismal biology. It was during that decade that doing a post-doc in ecology became the norm as a holding place for the emerging cohort. I don’t mean to plead a sad tale, but I was a post-doc at a major lab, published many papers, and later taught and taught before getting a tenure-track job after way too many years. I stuck with it, through the tough times, when I perhaps should have recognized my giving-up-time. I was financially insecure most of the time but that was price I was willing to pay to achieve my dream. Perhaps the question ought to be how much one is willing to sacrifice with the knowledge that you may never achieve your dream. This isn’t fair and I, more than most, feel badly for all the young scientists who won’t get what they so badly want. And deserve. But it just won’t happen for any number of reasons which speak nothing of the quality of the candidates passed over. As for the preponderance of adjunct or part-time faculty, one only has to look at the corporate model of governance at most colleges and universities to see where the real growth in higher education has been. While the quality of education has been taking hits, the quality, quantity, and salaries of administrators has been growing enormously. In real terms the salary of most faculty has not grown in perhaps 40 years. I can’t speak for administrators, but I am willing to bet that they make more than they did in 1970. I make about the same in actual dollars (unadjusted for inflation) for teaching a course now as I did in 1985. And with no benefits and I have had my PhD since before many of the new cohort was born. Unfair? You bet. Did anyone ever say that life was fair? No. But I can’t imagine doing anything else so I take what I can get and march on. Maybe there’ll be a job next year….sort of like the Cubs and the World Series. Steve Schwartz, PhD
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies
Has anyone established that the reduction in open positions is due to a lack of funds? It seems to me that Universities are fairly flush given the increases in tuition and the overhead charges to grants (over 50% in most cases). That alone has been an eye opener as I’ve been writing grants to try and secure my own funding. Where is that money going? As to some of the other comments: Academia is not the only option. There are jobs at government agencies (although that sector is dead now as well), biotech, non-profits, etc, so getting a Ph.D. in ecology (or genetics in my case) is not a waste of time if you don’t end up in academia. I think the limiting of graduate students produced by professors is already happening - because the grants are drying up to fund the graduate students. It would seem to me to be a more efficient system if you have two tracks - teaching and research, or at least reduce teaching loads for those who’s passion is research. But I’m guessing that has been a topic of discussion in the past. My two cents. Michael Garvin, PhD University of Alaska Fairbanks School of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences 17101 Point Lena Loop Road Juneau, AK 99801 907-796-5455 mrgar...@alaska.edu On Feb 9, 2014, at 5:51 PM, David Duffy ddu...@hawaii.edu wrote: If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented in the next generation's career 'gene pool'. If ecologists believe the current job market is competitive, they should reproduce like albatrosses, maximizing their investment in a very few highly competitive offspring with a wide array of attractive skills (K-slection). If they believe the current job market is essentially a crap shoot, then they should spawn like salmon, investing little or nothing, with subsequent massive mortality, and only a few offspring surviving (r-selection) The present situation seems to be more salmonid in an albatross environment with considerable human carnage. What can be done? Individuals can look into other fields but that means giving up a dream and acquiring more debt if they go back to school to retrain. If they stay, they risk remaining on the outside of academic/professional leks, opportunistically exploiting irregular and marginal rewards. They can teach, becoming contingent faculty, a growing national scandal where untenured faculty with precarious teaching positions may rely on food stamps to get by. If they have a large debt from student loans, they will end up taking just about any job that allows them to make their monthly repayments. The long term solution is a ZPG for ecologists: professors should essentially only reproduce themselves. Some may reply that they need 'excess' grad students as teaching assistants. In reality these positions could be filled and better taught by what are now contingent faculty. Make these better paid, give them a heavier load than one or two classes a semester and provide five-year contracts that would give them with more security. Faculty should not admit grad students unless they can be fully supported by fellowships. With fewer degrees each year, agencies might consider increasing the number of independent post docs that are long enough to be useful (5 years?) to allow people to develop. Funders should be prepared, if they fund projects with interns, to fund them at a living wage. Funding agencies should also support programs that support those in overcrowded fields who wish to retrain for teaching or health fields. We make a big point of wanting more people to enter the STEM fields, maybe we need to think more about how to retain them. David Duffy On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 10:57 AM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more informed decision and they study with eyes open wide on the possibilities open to them at the next stage in their life and career journey. Much easier said than done. It reminds me of two PhD markets in recent years. One, where hundreds of applicants vied for the reported 2 or 3 job openings that year and second the hundreds of positions open for the 2 or 3 PhD candidates graduating each year. Hopefully we advise our students of the job market realities. One place a student might look for this information can be found here. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm Hmmm . I was an academic biologist for 35+
