Re: [Emc-users] Hight Frequency VFD

[Dave Cole]

Siemens used to be quite expensive, but they have really driven down their
prices.

I just saw this:
https://support.industry.siemens.com/forum/WW/en/posts/g120c-for-high-frequency-spindle/212907

So the S120 is the drive to use for high freqs.   I've worked with Yaskawa
drives in the past and the Siemens drives are easier to use.
Plus Siemens phone and website support is really good and free.

Dave

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 2:58 PM Todd Zuercher  wrote:

> No, for some reason I hadn't checked with Siemens.  One of our machines
> even has a Siemens drive, but it's a gigantic thing that would never fit
> this machine's cabinet.  I'll look into it.
>
> We did order a Yaskawa drive, and are waiting on it to come in, figuring
> that if we get in a bind and can't wait for it we can knuckle under and pay
> the machine manufacture their price for one they have in stock, and keep
> the other as a spare.  But for the time being we are slow enough we can
> make do without that machine and can wait for the one we ordered.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Cole 
> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2022 1:56 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Hight Frequency VFD
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Have you checked to see if Siemens can help you?
> In order to go that fast they will sell you a license to install in a more
> or less standard drive.
> I understand that high freq drives can be used for other things, like gas
> centrifuges.
> So they try to keep track of where they go.
>
> Dave
>
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:42 AM Todd Zuercher 
> wrote:
>
> > Anyone know a good place to purchase a high frequency VFD?  We had the
> > drive in one of our CNCs die.  The old drive was a HSD DS15000.  The
> > spindle is an 18kw 24000rpm 4pole HSD router motor.  The old drive is
> > rated for 1-1000hz and that seems to be the problem, all of the off
> > the shelf drives I can find are limited to output frequencies less
> > than 500hz which would limit our spindles top speed to only 15000rmp.
> > Our machine builder quoted us for a Yaskawa V1000 drive with 1000hz
> > firmware (model#
> > VU4A0038FAA-134) that they do have in stock but they are marking up
> > their price to more than double the normal list price for that drive.
> > Every other place I've checked with so far are quoting us months long
> > lead times for that drive.
> >
> > I don't have to have a Yaskawa drive, I think I'd be ok with any drive
> > capable of 15kw and at least 800hz output.  (Oh, it would be nice if
> > it would fit in the cabinet where the old one did, have about 9inches
> > x 15inches  of space there.)
> >
> > Anyone have any suggestions for a good source for "obtainable" drive
> > that would fit the bill?  For example we have a machine with a Fuji
> > Frenic drive with 0-1000hz, but I can't find any info on buying a new
> > equivalent, all the new Frenic drives I can find have max frequencies
> > under 500hz.  I'm guessing it is similar to Yaskawa  for most other
> > manufacturers where you have to live in the right part of the world,
> > ask nicely and then maybe they might sell you a drive with the "special"
> HF firmware.
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn
> > Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> > www.pgrahamdunn.com%2Findex.phpdata=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn
> > .com%7Ceea41877b2b24396742608da31e56516%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806
> > fb43%7C0%7C0%7C637877158582440736%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4w
> > LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C
> > sdata=uOHHxs%2BZDOeFn049Ft%2FPGkCynNdbIqcS5ngvUh8IAds%3Drese
> > rved=0>
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist
> > s.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-usersdata=05%7C01%7Cto
> > ddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Ceea41877b2b24396742608da31e56516%7C5758544c573
> > f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C637877158582440736%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZ
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> > D%7C3000%7C%7C%7Csdata=Hk9kyvMOSySaGehu%2Bet8v7noYELOJLNG5M4CHy8Q
> > 63A%3Dreserved=0
> >
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Hight Frequency VFD

[Dave Cole]

Have you checked to see if Siemens can help you?
In order to go that fast they will sell you a license to install in a more
or less standard drive.
I understand that high freq drives can be used for other things, like gas
centrifuges.
So they try to keep track of where they go.

Dave

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:42 AM Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> Anyone know a good place to purchase a high frequency VFD?  We had the
> drive in one of our CNCs die.  The old drive was a HSD DS15000.  The
> spindle is an 18kw 24000rpm 4pole HSD router motor.  The old drive is rated
> for 1-1000hz and that seems to be the problem, all of the off the shelf
> drives I can find are limited to output frequencies less than 500hz which
> would limit our spindles top speed to only 15000rmp.  Our machine builder
> quoted us for a Yaskawa V1000 drive with 1000hz firmware (model#
> VU4A0038FAA-134) that they do have in stock but they are marking up their
> price to more than double the normal list price for that drive.  Every
> other place I've checked with so far are quoting us months long lead times
> for that drive.
>
> I don't have to have a Yaskawa drive, I think I'd be ok with any drive
> capable of 15kw and at least 800hz output.  (Oh, it would be nice if it
> would fit in the cabinet where the old one did, have about 9inches x
> 15inches  of space there.)
>
> Anyone have any suggestions for a good source for "obtainable" drive that
> would fit the bill?  For example we have a machine with a Fuji Frenic drive
> with 0-1000hz, but I can't find any info on buying a new equivalent, all
> the new Frenic drives I can find have max frequencies under 500hz.  I'm
> guessing it is similar to Yaskawa  for most other manufacturers where you
> have to live in the right part of the world, ask nicely and then maybe they
> might sell you a drive with the "special" HF firmware.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain

[Dave Cole]

IMO, your building inspector is stepping way outside of his authority.
His job is "building" inspection.   You got a permit for your "building" 
project.    Not for some machine sitting in your building.


Unless your mill is part of the "building",  he is way outside of his 
authority.


If your mill is hardwired into your electrical system, that may be a 
problem.  You may need to have a plug and receptacle for your mill, with 
the appropriate branch circuit protection (circuit breaker or fuse, etc) 
for the outlet.


I would ask specifically why he believes your machine must be stamped 
when it is not part of your building.   Record exactly what he says.   
Try and do as much in writing as possible.   Emails work.  Ask them what 
standard codes they follow and ask them to cite the sections of the code 
they are basing their decision on.   Then appeal his decision.   Tell 
the guy you mean no disrespect, but that you disagree with his decision 
and want to appeal it.
They should have a process to do that.   Chances are that his boss will 
not support his decision. Unless everything used in your county is 
required to be UL approved (very unlikely), I think his decision will be 
overturned.    7 engineers in the state who can apply a stamp are  
inadequate to cover all of WA state!   Just make sure you are decent 
about it.   People become irrational when they feel attacked.
If they push back you need to remind them that you are suffering from 
loss of use due to what you believe is an arbitrary decision.


Do you know any lawyers in the area? If you can, you want to copy a 
lawyer on all of your correspondence.    The lawyer doesn't need to do 
anything typically if you follow the appeals process.   But including 
legal counsel raises the bar significantly on their part.   Tell the 
lawyer you want to copy them in case they are needed.  Etc.
When things get sticky for the inspectors, and you have legit arguments, 
they will typically back off.   Getting legal counsel involved is 
incredibly sticky since they have to get "their" legal counsel involved 
as well, and that costs $$, it sparks internal meetings.   Lots of 
paperwork, etc. Suddenly you turn into a plague on the department.


I do industrial integration and have been doing it since 2003.   I have 
LinuxCNC machines running in plants everyday.

But I'm in Indiana.

Dave


On 7/28/2021 3:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote:

I'm in a bind now.  I just had the electrical wiring I put
into my garage shop inspected.  The WA state inspector
liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed
CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project).
He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official
"approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can
sign off on my electric.  I suspect that the field approval
would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998
vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels,
$5K).  Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed.

Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC
retrofitters faced this problem successfully?

Thanks,
-- Ralph

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Re: [Emc-users] A new lathe encoder option.

[Dave Cole]

Nice work!

On 7/20/2021 6:00 PM, andy pugh wrote:

I have added missing-tooth index to the software encoder (only in master).

https://youtu.be/t48TnJQtbCw

This opens up a number of large-bore encoder options, as this is the
scheme used on crankshaft trigger wheels.

options:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/123201654888 (expensive, but a good format)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334076379341 (cheaper, but needs modification)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313025151085 (poly-vee pulley included)

I haven't tested it on a lathe yet, or even driving a stepper to see
if the missing teeth cause a stutter.

Any volunteers? My own lathe uses a resolver on the spindle.




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

[Dave Cole]

I missed the beginning as well, but I think something happened that was 
not on this email list that prompted the COC stuff ?

Perhaps it was an attempt to prevent a future issue!?

I really have no idea.

No one has ever explained why it was written or why it is important.   I 
asked more than once  and the response was "crickets".


Personally, I don't see the need for it.

I'm not big into making up or accepting additional rules when they can't 
be explained.
You saw the results of this "non-event".   It wasn't pretty.   If 
someone thinks this is needed.  Pipe up and say why.


Anyway, I think we need to remember that LCNC is a "cooperative effort" 
between a number of very intelligent folks.
Being "cooperative" and "helpful" is a personal decision.   It doesn't 
take much to cause people to "not be" cooperative and helpful!

Tread lightly!

I think that LCNC has been a huge success and has helped humanity.
Try and find something else you have done that has "helped humanity".
That is BIG.

Lets not blow it.

Again, I want to thank those folks on this list who have helped me and 
others with LCNC.

I really appreciate your efforts!  :-)

Dave


On 7/17/2021 1:28 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:

WOW - I missed it all!

My wife and I left 24 Jun 2021 and returned 07 Jul 2021. I didn't check
emails until we returned.

Seems to me a lot of people confuse the right to comment with the
obligation to comment.

The COC appears to be a compilation of what everyone on the list has been
doing all along. Therefore, Jeff's comment, "a non-event", is appropriate.

I don't know what triggered the need for putting in the work to develop the
COC but I trust Jeff has identified the need.

I don't know who/what is going to be the COC sheriff but it will be a
thankless job. Even more thankless than general development. :)

It is my hope the job of COC sheriff is somewhat less interesting than the
maytag repairman job.

thank you Jeff for your attention and work

Stuart

I was encouraged when I saw Valerio comment about making a project. He is
thinking about getting back to work. We should follow his thought pattern.
:)

My only negative feeling was when it was suggested a democratic vote would
fix it. Democracy is mob rule - nothing else. It is one hundred people
walking into a restaurant and waiting until 51 have agreed on what to eat
and then everyone has to eat what the 51 decided everyone needs to eat. Not
pleasant.





On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 6:48 AM Mark Wendt  wrote:


On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 6:07 AM andy pugh  wrote:


On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 at 09:55, Mark  wrote:


Bullshit.  It's a sign that someone(s) wants to create political
division and strife

No, I think that we can be 100% sure that that was never Jeff's

intention.

--
atp


It may not have been his intention but it certainly has turned the group
into just that.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Meanwell SE600-48 Power Supply

[Dave Cole]

You may have a bad power supply.  Do you have any output voltage?
I'd attach a load and see if it holds voltage.   I cant think of 
anything that should be clicking in there.   Arcing can sound like clicking.


The spec sheet says nothing about fan control and I would expect they 
would flaunt that feature if they had it.

https://www.meanwell.com/productPdf.aspx?i=469#1

On 7/15/2021 12:16 PM, Alan Condit wrote:

I am building a new controller cabinet. I installed a Meanwell SE600-48 power 
supply. When I turn on the power supply the fan doesn’t turn on. If I leave the 
power supply on for a little while I hear an intermittent clicking (like a 
relay) but no fan. Does it have some kind of temperature control on the fan? Is 
it not turning on because I currently have virtually no load on the power 
supply?

Thanks,
Alan

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Re: [Emc-users] Settlement on CoC topic

[Dave Cole]

Did I miss an incident that prompted this?


Apparently not. I have asked the same question and nothing has been brought up, 
cited, etc.
I have no idea why it was written.

Unless this COC adds more features to LCNC or fixes bugs, does the dishes, or 
launders my clothes etc, I am going to ignore it.

I recommend the same.

Carry on.

I don't think it is worth the brain space.

Dave



On 7/13/2021 10:30 AM, Greg Bernard wrote:

Although I'm pretty much a "lurker" on this list, I have been reading it
daily for 7 or 8 years and can't recall any instances of rudeness,
bullying, or other untoward behavior by anyone. There have been a couple of
instances of someone interjecting a political opinion which was either
silently ignored or promptly dismissed with an admonition that this was not
the place for such expression and that was the end of it. Did I miss an
incident that prompted this?


On Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 8:31 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:


On Tuesday 13 July 2021 07:44:53 Mark Wendt wrote:


And there are a lot of us who are pretty disgusted with the attitudes
of those on this list who feel that something like this is totally
necessary.

Mark

Put me down in that column. I am all for ignoring it, and this list going
back to one of the most helpfull lists on the net.  This is destroying
us.


On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 6:37 AM Valerio Bellizzomi


wrote:

I am disgusted by the reactions of detractors of the CoC which Jeff
proposed, and by being attacked privately like an enemy for my own
freely-shared opinions.

That is why I am going to set digest mode on for the mailing list,
so that I will read messages once every month and not be harassed
every day by this useless anti-CoC endeavour, which is a distraction
that diverts my time from useful work. So you know that whatever you
post it will be read at end of the month and not immediately.

Taking now to private mail messages off-list: I have set a filter
for marking as spam everything from this list with off-list
destination to my private address, exception for the list admins.
Those who insist writing off-list to this private address will be
reported to their respective mail providers, again exception for the
list admins.


Stay well and God be with you.






 Forwarded Message 
From: Bruce Layne 
To: Valerio Bellizzomi 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users - OFF LIST] Code of Conduct
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:03:31 -0400
Mailer: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
  Thunderbird/78.11.0



On 7/12/21 9:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
LinuxCNC is a rare case in such, a blinkenlight in the darkness.
See if that endures after the mess.

That sounds a bit like an arsonist taking credit for a fire.  The
mess was caused by the Code of Conduct being forced on the
community, and now it's threatening to destroy the community.

 From my perspective, it sounds like, "LinuxCNC has never needed a
Code of Conduct, but we're going to force you to have one, and if
you resist, we'll destroy LinuxCNC.  You can either give in to our
demands and exploit LinuxCNC as a vehicle to extend our political
beliefs, or we'll destroy LinuxCNC and you'll have nothing."

The sad part is, the second law of thermodynamics implies that it's
easier to destroy rather than create.  There are plenty of recent
examples of a few politically motivated individuals destroying
projects, doxing people and getting them fired, bullying
corporations into making political statements, etc.  It's called
cancel culture and it's feared with good reason.  It took a lot of
work to build Rome but it was comparatively a simple and easy thing
for the Visigoths to destroy it.

As an engineer, I see myself as a builder - someone who is working
to reverse entropy to create, and not a modern day Visigoth using
entropy to destroy what others have created.







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Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

[Dave Cole]

Could someone please point out why this COC is even an issue?
If we already agreed to some terms, why is  a COC being layered on top 
of that?

Seeing people pack their bags over a proposal, seems like a bad idea.

The argument that no professional organizations or people will be 
attracted to a project without a COC is nonsense.

History tells a much different story.
How many commercial products have grabbed LCNC code ??   Quite a few!

I do not understand why anyone spent time writing a COC ??

This list has been quite civilized for a very long time.
Dave

On 7/12/2021 1:15 PM, Les Newell wrote:
You do know you agreed to a much more restrictive CoC when you joined 
this mailing list, don't you? Here is the full agreement:


This is linked from the EMC-users subscription form 



If you agreed to that, why are you so stressed about the one Jeff 
proposed? If you don't agree you'd best unsubscribe quickly before it 
upsets you.


Les

On 12/07/2021 09:03, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:


You don't realise that forcing CoC on others is exactly what's the 
problem with CoC. Just drop that fing CoC nonsens and everythings 
going to be civilized again. But I see, this won't happen. That's the 
whole point of forcing CoC: faschism.


Nik






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Re: [Emc-users] Ethercat returning message disappear

[Dave Cole]

On 7/11/2021 1:03 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

That said, Ethernet has been made to work on the Raspberry Pi "Pico", How
long until Ethercat runs on this $4 part?  The Pico is made by a non-profit
foundation, so the price will remain low



That is very interesting..

Probably not long!

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Runaway PID spindle.

[Dave Cole]

I think that is a spiral point tap.
The flute is straight along the length of the tap then the flute is is 
ground deeper toward the backside of the cutting edge.


AutomationDirect.com sells some really nice taps for reasonable amounts.

Dave


On 7/9/2021 8:32 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

The saying we have on another group is if there aren't pictures it didn't 
happen.  I hand held the camera so depth of field is out a little on the 10-32 
screw head and the macro lens is bad for depth of field as it is.

Short G-Code 200 RPM tapping into really soft aluminium trimmed off an old box 
or something.  Not sure if this classifies as a spiral tip tap but even a 
forming tap would have pushing this soft metal around.

http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/SpindleControl/Tapping10-32.jpg

John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

[Dave Cole]

 I've been lurking on this forum for the last few years.  But I've been a
subscriber for way over 10 years.
Constructed many LCNC machines.   A few worked so well they physically wore
out and had to be scrapped!
But my business took me elsewhere for the last few years.
So this COC is a surprise.
This has to be one of the nicest forums on the net.
So what spurred the "need" for a COC document ??
If something happened, I missed it.   If something happened or is
happening, please point it out to me and please describe how this COC will
improve things?
Right now, "I don't get it".
So, I don't see the need.

BTW, Jeff, Chris, Mark, Les, Gene, Andy, and many more folks on this list
have been incredibly helpful over the years. So thanks!   (I can't say
that enough! )

Dave



On 7/1/2021 12:46 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Wed, 2021-06-30 at 23:49 +0100, Les Newell wrote:

I never thought it needed one either. My reaction when I read the
CoC
was pretty much 'Yeah, that makes sense'  and until the list blew up
that's about all I thought about it. Most mailing lists and forums
have
something similar.

The SheetCam forum shows a CoC as part of the registration process.
It's
the default boilerplate CoC/legal CYA supplied with the forum
software
and no-one has ever queried it. It allows me to rule the forum with
an
iron fist. Oh the feeling of power I get from booting spammers. Once
I
even sent someone a PM, asking them to tone it down .
It's
all part of my secret agenda to take over the world, well the hobby
and
light industrial plasma CAM world at any rate.

Les

with an industrial plasma it is actually possible, and I have thought
about it many times, to machine a full blown complete Iron Man armor
suit :-)



On 30/06/2021 21:01, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

Les, to be clear I never thought this group needed a CoC, I always
got
more or less the help I wanted, on the rare occasions when I needed
to
ask and the time spent on IRC or on the list was well spent. When
Jeff
announced the CoC it was a well-received surprise, I don't care at
all
if it wasn't announced as it was supposed to and voted for by the
group, it's still a good initiative that will find my support. Be
assured that I will act as the CoC orders if there is one
officially
approved.


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

[Dave Cole]

I've been lurking on this forum for the last few years.
But I've been a subscriber for way over 10 years.
Constructed many LCNC machines.   A few worked so well they physically 
wore out, and had to be scrapped!

But my business took me elsewhere.
So this COC discussion is a surprise.
This has to be one of the nicest forums on the net.
What spurred the "need" for a COC ??
If something significant happened, I missed it.
Personally, I'd shelve the COC and pull it out if and when there is a 
need for it.

I don't see the need.

Dave



On 7/1/2021 12:46 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Wed, 2021-06-30 at 23:49 +0100, Les Newell wrote:

I never thought it needed one either. My reaction when I read the
CoC
was pretty much 'Yeah, that makes sense'  and until the list blew up
that's about all I thought about it. Most mailing lists and forums
have
something similar.

The SheetCam forum shows a CoC as part of the registration process.
It's
the default boilerplate CoC/legal CYA supplied with the forum
software
and no-one has ever queried it. It allows me to rule the forum with
an
iron fist. Oh the feeling of power I get from booting spammers. Once
I
even sent someone a PM, asking them to tone it down .
It's
all part of my secret agenda to take over the world, well the hobby
and
light industrial plasma CAM world at any rate.

Les

with an industrial plasma it is actually possible, and I have thought
about it many times, to machine a full blown complete Iron Man armor
suit :-)



On 30/06/2021 21:01, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

Les, to be clear I never thought this group needed a CoC, I always
got
more or less the help I wanted, on the rare occasions when I needed
to
ask and the time spent on IRC or on the list was well spent. When
Jeff
announced the CoC it was a well-received surprise, I don't care at
all
if it wasn't announced as it was supposed to and voted for by the
group, it's still a good initiative that will find my support. Be
assured that I will act as the CoC orders if there is one
officially
approved.



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Re: [Emc-users] Small PC for use with 7i90 / 7i96?

[Dave Cole]

Chris,
How many 3 1/2" drive bays do these have?

A lot of the HP PCs were very well made.   I've worked on some that have 
been running industrial software for 10+ years non stop running Windows 
XP and they are just now dying.    One plant I was at bought a bunch of 
refurbs just to use as spares running the same Windows XP based 
software!   Updating the software is very expensive compared to the 
hardware, so they just bought a large amount of hardware to swap out 
over the next 10 years or so.    By the time all of the hardware dies, 
most of them will be retired!


I suspect this is fairly common in mature manufacturing plants.



On 3/30/2021 1:31 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:51 AM Martin Dobbins  wrote:


Looking for a small form factor PC to use.  Been a while since I've put

together a new system.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085RZDVL5


But for $50 more Newegg will sell you a much more powerful complete
computer.
www.newegg.com/hp-elite-8200-...


I buy these and keep the Windows installation but move it into a virtual
machine that runs under Linux.   So if I ever do need Windows I can run it
inside a VM.  These machines are powerful enough to do that well enough.
   The price is low enough that it's not worth buying parts.




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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Dave Cole]

On 2/7/2021 6:59 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 9:41 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:


   Space for
it means pulling the crooked g0704 out before bringing it in. And more
than likely hurting myself getting it backed into the space. But I think
I'm a little smarter about such than I was 5 or 6 years ago putting the
go704 where it is.


Are there no Home Depot stores near you?   If you drive by one you will
find a good supply of day laborers waiting for work.   In the early
morning, they all seem to be hoping for a full day of work but after lunch,
they will accept a one or two-hour job. You can hire an army of movers
for a one-hour shop realignment.   Four big guys can haul everything out,
sweep the area, and put it all back in not much time.   Then you have room
for what you want.   Around here, $20 per hour plus lunch is the going rate
for that kind of unskilled labor.   So $200 gets a lot of heavy work done.
A few months ago I ordered 16,000 pounds of river rock and the delivery
truck could only get it to within 50 to 60 feet of where it was needed.
Heck if I was going to move that myself.  I'm much younger than 80 but see
no reason to move stuff like that myself.  Once you get used to hiring
these guys, big jobs like filing a stake bed truck with construction debris
by hand are easy, You just say  "put all this stuff in the truck" and it's
done.


I live outside of a small town of about 1000 in rural Indiana. When I 
first moved her in the 90's, each morning about 6:30am a bunch of guys 
looking for day work would gather outside a small grocery store in 
town.   Contractors (many of them Amish) were always looking for help 
and they would swing by with their vans and pickup labor as required.   
This went on for years.  Sometimes there would be 50 guys there looking 
for work.  One morning, the INS setup a sting and arrested a number of 
illegals looking for work.    That was the end of that.  The work didn't 
go away, the labor market just went underground.    There are a lot of 
cash businesses around here.   Some have significant workforces.







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Re: [Emc-users] Classicladder Sequential

[Dave Cole]

Do you mean writing a sequencer in Classic Ladder?
As in step logic?

Dave

On 1/25/2021 4:33 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Does anyone have any examples of Classicladder using a Sequential program?

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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Re: [Emc-users] Rpi Pico

[Dave Cole]

I see that Sparkfun now has them on backorder.

Sparkfun shipped my order today.   So that's good.
Ironically Sparkfun had a limit of 100 per customer.
I suspect you might find them being resold on Ebay.

Yep.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=raspberry+pi+pico&_sacat=0

Oh well.

Dave


On 1/23/2021 1:49 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

They seem to have done an excellent job of getting the word out about this
new product.  I think that it will be the "new Arduino" but the current
problem is actually buying them.   I've signed up to be notified when more
are available but you have to be quick and lucky as they sell out in
minutes.

This is not really a bad thing.  It means they have something people want
and at $4 the price is right.  In a month they will be generally available
in quantity with Amazon-prime 2-day shipping.

In the meantime, there is a ton of documentation to download and read.



On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 1:28 PM Frank Tkalcevic 
wrote:


I just received an advertising email from SparkFun.  They sell the Pi Pico
as well as 3 of their own variants with the RP2040 chip...


Thing Plus - https://www.sparkfun.com/products/17745
MicroMod - https://www.sparkfun.com/products/17720
Pro Micro - https://www.sparkfun.com/products/17717

I just noticed, they are for pre-order.


-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 22 January 2021 4:05 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rpi Pico

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 7:56 PM Dave Cole  wrote:


I was thinking multiple RPi Picos to one RPi4, but for just one, that is
probably the way to go.


The Pico is a dual-core M0.   So it is faster than I had originally
thought.   Micro-Python is ported to it so it might be very easy for many
people to program.   I'm got my name in to be notified when they are back
in stock. I still think USB is the simplest way to connect while
experimenting.

One advantage of USB is that you need USB to program the Pico.   You would
run the development system on the Pi4 and change the firmware by copying
files or drag/drop.  If the Pico is SPI connected then you need to hunt
down a USB cable then walk out to the shop to change the firmware.




I'll try that first!

The Pi Hat as the carrier board is also a good idea.

On 1/21/2021 7:46 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I'd bet SPI would work well but even easier would be to connect them to

the

Pi4 with USB.  Both sides have software that makes the USB look like a
serial port and the physical connection is done with off the shelf

cable.

I've used M0 boards this way in the past and using USB lets you also

cnet

them to a Linux PC

What I like about the Pico is that it can be SMT hand soldered.  I can

make

a simple passive carrier board that has connectors and it is not hard

to

hand solder 0.1 inch pitch.  The carrier board could be a Pi-hat

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 4:30 PM Dave Cole 

wrote:

I wonder if these could act as SPI slaves to the RPI 4?

I've been trying to buy two from Adafruit and they keep selling out

and

then coming back in stock, and then selling out again!

Dave

On 1/21/2021 6:36 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 21:52, Chris Albertson <

albertson.ch...@gmail.com>

wrote:

This is an STM32 microcontroller.

Are you sure? It is an ARM Cortex M0, like the STM32, but is it made

by

ST?

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--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Rpi Pico

[Dave Cole]

I was thinking multiple RPi Picos to one RPi4, but for just one, that is 
probably the way to go.

I'll try that first!

The Pi Hat as the carrier board is also a good idea.

On 1/21/2021 7:46 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I'd bet SPI would work well but even easier would be to connect them to the
Pi4 with USB.  Both sides have software that makes the USB look like a
serial port and the physical connection is done with off the shelf cable.

I've used M0 boards this way in the past and using USB lets you also cnet
them to a Linux PC

What I like about the Pico is that it can be SMT hand soldered.  I can make
a simple passive carrier board that has connectors and it is not hard to
hand solder 0.1 inch pitch.  The carrier board could be a Pi-hat

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 4:30 PM Dave Cole  wrote:


I wonder if these could act as SPI slaves to the RPI 4?

I've been trying to buy two from Adafruit and they keep selling out and
then coming back in stock, and then selling out again!

Dave

On 1/21/2021 6:36 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 21:52, Chris Albertson 

wrote:

This is an STM32 microcontroller.

Are you sure? It is an ARM Cortex M0, like the STM32, but is it made by

ST?

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Re: [Emc-users] Rpi Pico

[Dave Cole]

Sparkfun had them in stock.

On 1/21/2021 7:30 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

I wonder if these could act as SPI slaves to the RPI 4?

I've been trying to buy two from Adafruit and they keep selling out 
and then coming back in stock, and then selling out again!


Dave

On 1/21/2021 6:36 PM, andy pugh wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 21:52, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:



This is an STM32 microcontroller.
Are you sure? It is an ARM Cortex M0, like the STM32, but is it made 
by ST?





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Re: [Emc-users] Rpi Pico

[Dave Cole]

I wonder if these could act as SPI slaves to the RPI 4?

I've been trying to buy two from Adafruit and they keep selling out and 
then coming back in stock, and then selling out again!


Dave

On 1/21/2021 6:36 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 21:52, Chris Albertson  wrote:


This is an STM32 microcontroller.

Are you sure? It is an ARM Cortex M0, like the STM32, but is it made by ST?




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Re: [Emc-users] Rpi Pico

[Dave Cole]

It has some interesting sub processors to handle I/O.   Reminds me of 
the sub processors on the Beagle Board Black.

https://hackspace.raspberrypi.org/articles/what-is-programmable-i-o-on-raspberry-pi-pico

Here are some docs:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/pico/getting-started/

It has a lot in a very small package for $4.00

Dave

On 1/21/2021 10:41 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 01/21/2021 02:43 AM, Sven Wesley wrote:

For you people out there who use an Arduino or RPi to communicate with
parts of the machine (tool changers, doors etc). Here's a cute and 
really

low priced alternative.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-pico/


The blurb is pretty sketchy on details.  What is the programming 
environment like?


Thanks,

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Chinese VFDs with good reputations

[Dave Cole]

Thanks for the tip on HuanYang!

Dave

On 12/30/2020 2:49 PM, Eric Keller wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 1:20 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:


Most are HuanYang, and decent, reliable stuff. I'm using 2 of them.


 From what I can tell, most of the HuanYang vfd's on ebay are copies.
HuanYang uses a module for the high power stage, most of the cheap ones are
using discretes.

They have a store on Amazon, but don't list the models that have a braking
resistor for some reason.  I guess it's better go go direct with them.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

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Re: [Emc-users] Great display of 28-axis machine control - totally OT

[Dave Cole]

Who is the Department of Defense working with on war fighting robots now?
Apparently not Boston Dynamics?

Dave

On 12/30/2020 9:07 AM, Andrew wrote:

ср, 30 груд. 2020 о 04:22 Chris Albertson  пише:


https://youtu.be/fn3KWM1kuAw

Recently Hyundai Motor Group acquired 80% of Boston Dynamics for $880

million.
So the next dance might be Korean.
Or, they might learn Taekwondo.

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Re: [Emc-users] Chinese VFDs with good reputations

[Dave Cole]

I usually include a input power line filter on servo and VFD 
applications if there is a computer or PLC involved.  I've done a few 
machines without drive input filters and noise problems have bit me.    
Fixing the problem after the fact costs more in wasted time than the 
cost of the filter/s. Automation Direct was selling filters suited to 
powering multiple drives.    Not sure if they still do.


Where are you guys buying the Bergeda drives?
Ebay?

Thanks,

Dave

On 12/30/2020 3:13 AM, David Berndt wrote:

Hi John,

You've got me a bit interested in these drives. I'm currently looking 
for the biggest single phase servo I can easily find, looks like the 
Bergerda 1.8 or maybe even 2.6kw might be it. But it's always a bit 
hard to tell with the lower quality documentation these companies 
provide. Can you confirm/deny that the 1.8kw can run on single phase?  
What drive model number are you using?


Anyone else have any experience with the 2.6kw Bergeda? Looks like the 
LiChaun A4 series might also be of interest?




Thanks,

-Dave


On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 13:48:29 -0500, John Dammeyer 
 wrote:


I looked at prices for a 2HP 3phase and a VFD (like Hitatchi 
Vectorless?) and found without shipping the price was approaching 
$600.  For less than that I ended up with Bergerda.


I'm using a Bergerda AC Servo 110SM series (1.8kW, 6NM)  on my 
spindle, currently with a cheap PWM module until I wire up a second 
BoB for step/dir control.  With PWM I get 100RPM to 3000RPM without a 
belt change.  With stepper I can have it move very very slowly.


I also swapped in, for testing, a smaller 60SM series 1.27NM Bergerda 
onto the X axis.  Once I read the manual correctly I got step and 
direction working well.  The drive isn't overly large but is a bit 
bigger than the HP_UHU which runs the brushed servo motors also 1.2 NM.
This video shows it now working.  I can get 180ipm on the X axis just 
like the much bigger DC Servo.

https://youtu.be/43liAVILgHY

The Gecko Stepper G213V driver on the knee has now failed for the 
second time melting the connector again.  Absolutely no response from 
Gecko so it's being scrapped and FedEx tracking says my new Bergerda 
AC 80SM series servo (3.5NM) will arrive on Wednesday along with 2 
more of the small 60SM units.


They aren't cheap compared to stepper motors.  In my case I get to 
remove a complete Toroidal power supply that runs only the stepper 
but is big enough for the entire mill with 60VDC motor drivers.


The DC Servos and Harmonic drive (controlled with STMBL) run on a 
105DC Toroidal power supply.  I could remove this and run the 
Harmonic off 110VAC to DC with a smaller isolation transformer. Then 
I'd have room for the Bergerda drives.
This is the MACH3 Road Runner with the much bigger DC Servos and the 
1200 oz-in (drops to 3.5NM at 300RPM) on the knee.

https://youtu.be/OUQzyp-3WXY

I've found support and price excellent, shipping horrendous. For 
example I found that when the spindle stopped it would sometimes sit 
with a bit of a squeal.  A quick email to Bergerda and discussion and 
we figured out which parameters to tweak. Now it's dead quiet.  And 
much smaller than the single phase 1.5kW 2HP motor.

http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/NewPulleys-1.jpg

John Dammeyer


-Original Message-
From: Dave Cole [mailto:linuxcncro...@gmail.com]
Sent: December-26-20 9:44 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Emc-users] Chinese VFDs with good reputations

What low cost Chinese drives have you guys used with great success?

I'm talking mostly single phase input drives.

There are a lot of look a likes on Ebay.�� Some are dirt cheap. Others
not so much.

Some specify that they are specifically for water cooled spindles, etc.

Others say almost nothing.

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Chinese VFDs with good reputations

[Dave Cole]

I was thinking about drives such as these on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC220V-2HP-1-5KW-8A-VFD-Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-Controller-Converter/124311510881?hash=item1cf18b1f61:g:dDIAAOSwj1hfRNRg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1500W-2HP-8A-Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-VFD-Single-To-3-Phase-220V/233690529209?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D9c6e725f17cc4ccfa318eb7326a84fa0%26pid%3D15%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dco%26sd%3D124311510881%26itm%3D233690529209%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c15.m1851

If you do a search for "VFD 1.5KW" on Ebay those will pop up.

These are crazy cheap.    But if they work and you have a 3 phase drill 
press, or a grinder you picked up at a auction, these would be hard to 
beat.

Something like this might work on a 3 phase mill spindle motor as well.

Ebay seems to be flooded with dirt cheap VFDs, of unknown quality right now.

Dave


On 12/26/2020 6:22 PM, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

I picked up a couple of 220V 1PH to 220V 3PH VFDs, rated for up to 3HP, for 
under $300 each new. Don't recall the brand and I'm not home where I can go 
look in the shop.
What I find insane is how *simple* electronic phase converters that do nothing 
but change single to three phase, doing nothing to the voltage, no speed 
adjusting, no remote control, no where to connect a braking resistor, are so 
expensive. $1500 and all it does is exactly the same thing as an old rotary 
phase converter.

So rather than a "plug and play" box for my Monarch 12CK I had to buy a fancy 
box with almost 100 settings I had to fiddle with just to get it to run the antique 3HP 
motor without hitting overload. Still have to slip the clutch a little in higher gears 
but once it's turning it's 100% solid. Adding some MolySlip gear lube to the headstock 
made it quieter and easier to get spinning.

 On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 11:50:37 AM MST, John Dammeyer 
 wrote:
  I looked at prices for a 2HP 3phase and a VFD (like Hitatchi Vectorless?) and 
found without shipping the price was approaching $600.  For less than that I 
ended up with Bergerda.
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[Emc-users] Chinese VFDs with good reputations

[Dave Cole]

What low cost Chinese drives have you guys used with great success?

I'm talking mostly single phase input drives.

There are a lot of look a likes on Ebay.   Some are dirt cheap. Others 
not so much.


Some specify that they are specifically for water cooled spindles, etc.

Others say almost nothing.

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Checking vfd hookup question?

[Dave Cole]

I'm sure those could be made to work if they are of an acceptable Ohms 
range, but how do you mount them?

They are just elements.
Most braking resistors on larger machines are in cages on the top or 
side of the control panels.
For small drives, they are oftentimes just screwed to the panel 
backplane,   But then they don't get that hot.


By the time you fab the cage, you can almost buy one new with a cage and 
that is rated.


Dave

On 12/24/2020 1:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 12/24/2020 11:43 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

Automation Direct sells braking resistors.
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/drives_-a-_soft_starters/ac_variable_frequency_drives_(vfd)/vfd_accessories/braking_units_-a-_resistors 


Looks like the cheapest one is about $30.
I've used stovetop elements from eBay for about $12 or so.  If they 
are good enough for

Haas in mass manufacture, they ought to be good enough for me.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Checking vfd hookup question?

[Dave Cole]

Automation Direct sells braking resistors.
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/drives_-a-_soft_starters/ac_variable_frequency_drives_(vfd)/vfd_accessories/braking_units_-a-_resistors
Looks like the cheapest one is about $30.
But unless you are hitting the brakes constantly, they usually don't get 
hot.
A 300 watt (continuously rated) would be good for a 2+ kw drive if you 
aren't using it constantly.
The problem with using a stove element is that you will need to protect 
the terminals.   A 240 input drive has about a 350v DC bus voltage.

You don't want to get shocked with 350 VDC!

Dave

On 12/24/2020 11:06 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 12/24/2020 02:18 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
"All the time?"    When you have a hard requirement like this is when 
some
detailed engineering can pay off.    Assume you are reversing at 50% 
duty

cycle and burning 1KW 50% of the time.   Where I live this can cost 12
cents per hour.  This is $89 per month if you actually do run "all the
time".  Or $1,000 per year.  Or maybe you are usig a lower value 
resister

and burning 4KW with your brake?   That is $4K per year
The VFD only turns the braking resistor on when the DC link voltage 
rises above some limit due to energy returned from the motor during 
deceleration.  I never detect any warming on mine except during rigid 
tapping cycles.
A better way is to use a battery inside the power supply.   a 100 
amp-hour

lithium battery would cost possibly $400.

You are going to need a 340 V battery bank, and a charger for it.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Checking vfd hookup question?

[Dave Cole]

On 12/22/2020 8:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:


Using too low a resistance won't harm the MOTOR, it will blow the 
power brick in the VFD. 



Right.  The newer drives chop current off the DC bus to the braking 
resistor to lower the DC bus voltage as the motor slows.


I'd find out what they recommend.    You can oftentimes buy braking 
resistors on Ebay.  I sold some bigger ones a while back that looked 
like room heaters.


But bigger wirewound resistors should work as well.   You might not need 
one at all unless you want to slow the motor quickly. Usually if you 
slow the motor too fast and the DC bus goes into overvoltage, the drive 
just shuts down and the motor coasts. Nothing bad occurs.    So you can 
try it without a braking resistor and if you start tripping the drive 
with DC bus overvoltage alarms, then install a braking resistor.


Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Checking vfd hookup question?

[Dave Cole]

Is this a Chinese drive?  I have seen a lot of strange nomenclature on 
Chinese drives.


M in a German sense, oftentimes denotes "mana" which is a common.  I 
have seen M or "mana" used to denote a low voltage common.   So does the 
M in DCM, stand for "mana"? Perhaps?  Perhaps the drive was designed by 
a German engineer?


I try to look at the example wiring diagrams as those seems to be fairly 
consistent even though the nomenclature is often not.


A neutral connection should not be required.

Since you are in the US and likely on a 240 single phase residential 
service, so you likely just have two hot legs which is 240/250 volts, 
and those would connect to the drive along with the safety ground.


I would think that your drive manual should have a resistor 
recommendation for the dump resistor.   Or maybe not?


A dump / braking resistor is only required if you want to stop the motor 
quickly.


Dave



On 12/22/2020 6:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Swapping a 110 volt vfd, for a 250 volt vfd, one of the terminals is
labeled differently, the common point of the fwd/rev/spd1-2-3-4-5
terminals on the 110 volter is labeled XGND

But the common point terminal on the higher voltage unit is labeled DCM
but the diagram of how to hook up external controls is identical.

Is there any good reason to treat it differently in hooking it to a
7i76D? It should all be equ as its the presence of continuity from the
fwd/rev terminals to this XDNG/DCM common point that determines the
command.

There is no terminal labeled neutral on this controller, only a marked
static ground which I ran back to the services static bar, not to the
neutral bar.  But my copy of the NEC is now 24 years old, so I'm asking,
hopefully, someone with a more recent copy.

This is also the first vfd I've had that actually has hookups for a dump
resistor. 2.2 kw vfd & motor, running on 250 volt single phase, what is
good value and wattage for this resistor?

Thanks folks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] Interface Simodrive 611 ?

[Dave Cole]

If the drives are still running, then I don't think you will have any 
issues getting them to work with LinuxCNC.
There are still companies out there repairing those drives but some of 
the parts are no longer available.  I doubt you will need to alter 
anything in the drives themselves to get it to work with LinuxCNC.   If 
you have machine wiring diagrams you are probably all set.


Dave


On 12/19/2020 6:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 12/19/2020 04:32 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:


I did a look-see with giggle and a few hits down from the first, says 
its

being phased out, meaning since its now a decade old, support will
vanish shortly. So I'd not put it in any new upgrades or conversions.
Not to mention its pricey, wy pricey.

You make the stuff to run almost any pmdc motor to much higher
performance than the motor maker ever dreamed of, so I'd certainly not
drop $1000 to $4500 per axis to use somebody else's proprietary stuff
when its tuning knobs are guarded by proprietary software.


A potential customer has a WORKING machining center with these drives, 
but an ancient CNC control,
and is looking at a LinuxCNC retrofit.  It looks like these are analog 
velocity servos, so I think I can set him up with my PPMC interface.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Interface Simodrive 611 ?

[Dave Cole]

I have worked on Siemens controls and drives for years.
It depends on how old your Simodrive is.
Do you have a Simodrive 611U or an earlier 611 drive?
They had some really old drives in the early 90s that were also called 
611's but they were not like the later 611's.
The later drives were usually in a rack format and they usually ran off 
one common DC bus power supply.
However it was possible to have a standalone power module with an 
onboard controller in the later drives.
To my knowledge, most were setup in velocity mode and provided encoder 
feedback, even if the motors had resolvers.
However, there were a lot of variants.   Hopefully you have some common 
drives.


Do you have a 9 pin serial port on the front of the controller?
If so you may be able to communicate with it via the Simocom software.
You should not need a special cable if it is a 9 pin connector.  If it 
is female, use a rs232 extention cable.

If male, use a null modem cable.
I believe some of the much older drives had 25 pin com connectors.
However, I never run into those any longer.

Most people find the config software fairly confusing.   The 611 drives 
after the early version were extremely flexible drives (to a fault).
If you want to tweak the drive, the first thing you should do is to save 
your existing configuration to a computer file.


Siemens won't talk to you about those drives unless are willing to pay 
for support.  They have been obsolete for a long time now.

But that is better than most vendors.

The amount of documentation available for "611" drives was/is fairly 
overwhelming and that is because they were made for a long time and they 
evolved.


Here are some links:

It appears that you can still download the software for free.

https://support.industry.siemens.com/tf/us/en/posts/is-it-possible-to-connect-to-simodrive-611-using-simocomu-13020201-and-usb-rs232-adapter-or-do-i-need-a-special-cable-for-this-quest/80653/?page=0=10

https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/search?search=SimoComU=ProductSupport%2CCatalog%2CCertificate%2CCharacteristic%2CDownload%2CDownloadSoftwareArchive%2CExampleOfUse%2CFaq%2CManual%2CProductNote%2CSlk%2CForum=en-US

https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/products?dtp=Download=ps=13259=en-WW

https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/109769939/simodrive-611u-v14-03-02-package?dti=0=13259=en-WW

BTW, they were really good drives. They are still running thousands of 
machines.   The problem now is replacement parts.   If you can find 
them, they are expensive, and they were never cheap to begin with.


Dave


On 12/19/2020 4:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Has anyone interfaced a Simodrive 611 servo system?  I did find the 
manual online, but there is a LOT of info, and it is not really easy 
to follow.


I see it has several analog inputs, so I'm thinking that the 
traditional scheme, CNC control sends analog velocity command to 
drive, drive receives encoder signals and provides quadrature info to 
CNC control is possible.


To change configuration of the drive, you need a program from Siemens 
to run on a PC.  Does anyone know if this program is freely available, 
or you have to pay for it?


Thanks for any info,

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

On 11/13/2020 1:24 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Thursday 12 November 2020 20:50:10 Dave Cole wrote:


Gene,

Where did you buy that H bridge board ?  Ebay ?

Dave

Yes, Thats a BTS7960 board. I tried it out tonight, ran the motor at
about half speed for about half an hour. No detectable heating of the
motor or the device. Running on a 350 watt 24 volt switcher. Found I
needed to do some work on the hal file as I was only getting encoder B
output back into the 5i25 encoder.01. Probably have an is_output being
applied to one of the gpio's that is an input on the bob. But by then I
was beat, so that is tomorrows troubleshooting job. For a full test I
need to dummy up a hone switch for an index on the the motor since its
not yet mounted on the BS-1. Need to figure out how to put one on it
that is still out of the way and protected. Someplace behind the front
disk I think, and detect a passing screw with an ATS-667 should work ok.
Just have the find the giddy-up to do it. I'm finding that with a 30%
pump, my giddy-up goes away too easy.  That and make a couple saddles to
put the motor in strong enough it won't get knocked coocoo by the choker
straps I handle the BS-1 with as its about 200 lbs with the motor and
160mm 3 jaw mounted.

Take care and stay well, Dave.




Thanks Gene,

I want to try out that H bridge.    The price is certainly right!

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

Gene,

Where did you buy that H bridge board ?  Ebay ?

Dave

On 11/9/2020 5:15 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 28 October 2020 16:02:51 Gene Heskett wrote:


On Wednesday 28 October 2020 14:30:39 Chris Albertson wrote:

I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..

"*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V,
in our experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation
impractical above 16 V.*"

Which pretty well explains my problems.

Its taken way too long, but I may have found the driver I need. Miniature
board and heat sink for about $13/copy.  Has a pair of Infineon BTS7960B
chips on a pcb about 1.5" square, rated for up to 45 volts and 43 amps
for each chip and 2 make a full H-bridge. From the looks, its not the
datasheet hookup, but has a 74HCT244 in tsop style for an input buffer.
Looks like it needs a ground and 5 volts, and probably an enable input,
and up and down pwms, mode 2 IOW. Needless to say, no example hookups
are to be had. But I'm prowling around in googles output now.  Found
them:



Interestingly, this one is stated to only be good till 27 volts, not the
infineon 45 volts. Bridge chips are labeled with an extra B.  2nd grade
stuffs? Probably. I'll advise how it works when I get it wired up.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] anti-freeze recommendation for water cooled spindle motors

[Dave Cole]

I have been using Pink RV antifreeze for years in my horizontal 
bandsaw.   The pump has been submersed in it for 7 years or so.    I 
never goes bad and stuff never seems to grow in it, but it does 
evaporate slowly.   I just add more. I use it full strength.   The 
Anticorrosives in it seem to keep rust at bay as well.   Its a generic 
7x10 bandsaw.
I buy the stuff anyway to winterize my boat, so I always have some 
around.  Last time I bought it for just over $2/gallon.


Distilled water is quite corrosive.   I would avoid that by itself.  See 
the link below:


https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/407/distilled-water#:~:text=Despite%20its%20benefits%2C%20distilled%20water,carbon%20dioxide%20from%20the%20air.

However I buy gallons of distilled water from the market to dilute full 
strength auto antifreeze.

Dave



On 11/9/2020 10:58 PM, dave engvall wrote:
IIRC RV grade antifreeze is propylene glycol and often flavored with a 
bit of methyl salicylate. Easy to tell if you have it all flushed out. 
You will be able to taste the oil of wintergreen long after the pink 
dye is gone.


Dave

On 11/7/20 6:46 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 07 November 2020 19:15:46 Jon Elson wrote:


On 11/07/2020 05:34 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

I have just found that food grade antifreeze in the water seems to
be a nono for long term useage as motor coolant.

Why do you need food grade in a recirculating system?  How
about plain old antifreeze, which has lubes and
anti-corrosion additives. Or, they make a coolant for TIG
torches that has the same stuff.
I've had the same stuff in my TIG torch for over a decade,
and it still runs fine.

Jon

I'll get some 50-50, about 5 gallons and change it. After only minimal
useage for a year, this stuff is really ugly pink snot. I need to caulk
around the line cord too as that is the only place insects can get in an
drown. The rv stuff must smell good to them.

The amplifier came back. I'll send a check Monday.

Thanks Jon.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett




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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

I didn't think that we were talking about positioning.
I thought you were talking about a spindle drive.
I think it could be used as a low performance positioning drive.
You would need an opto coupler setup for the command obviously if there 
is no isolation.

I'm not sure that the newer KB drives aren't isolated.
But I would probably pursue a real servo drive/motor if you want 
anything with performance.
In the past few years I have implemented AC VFDs on some machines to do 
positioning.
They use a relatively high ratio gearbox.   They are usually in vector 
mode.  Those setups can last a very long time.  But they aren't super 
precise, but then they don't need to be.

A couple of the machines used shot pins to get precise final position.

Dave

On 10/20/2020 5:30 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:



From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
On 10/20/2020 03:19 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like 
pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast

enough to a closed loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the drives 
does support tachometer feedback.
The KB drives are SCR based, so pretty low bandwidth.

Jon

So perfect for treadmills or fans or conveyers or any sort of simple speed 
control with a knob.  But not ideal for CNC based systems.

John




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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Fanuc 0M setup

[Dave Cole]

I forget what version of the Fanuc Controllers this applies to, but 
there were some controllers that had a compact flash slot on the front.
The compact flash slot was used to load and read out the PLC program 
logic and the other controller settings.   The programming was done 
offline on a laptop and the logic was written to the compact flash 
module, then the module was used to load the controllers memory.

It was awkward.
You needed a $$ license to run the software.
This was years ago, but the Fanuc tech guy was charging way over $200/hr 
to make changes.

Dave

On 10/20/2020 10:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 10/20/2020 02:29 AM, Roland Jollivet wrote:

Also, if I want to ditch the controller at a later stage, are the Fanuc
servo drives interfaceable to EMC?

Can you say what servo amps you have?  The oldest Fanuc had standard 
analog velocity servos, but instead of a DC tachometer, they 
synthesized the tach signal from the encoder.  Some machines had the 
tach in the motor but didn't use it, so it could be set up to use the 
existing tach.  This applies to the brush motor (yellow cap) series.


Later units had brushless motors (red cap) and the servo amps were 
supplied 6 separate PWM signals, one for each transistor.  That uses 
up a lot of PWM outputs.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.  I think they 
can commonly be found on Ebay as well.


Dave

On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:

Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread 
mill motors I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting 
parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC 
Servo motor controller.


http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG

The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying 
work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the project.

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG

The controller was the MC33030

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf

Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...


i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
in view of you past experience what would you use now


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Re: [Emc-users] ot: welders

[Dave Cole]

The old Lincoln tombstone type welders - not the last 20 year units sold 
in big box stores, but the old industrial style transformer welders were 
good.  The old tombstone welders had a crank on the front to set the amps.
They look old, and they are, so they don't sell well.   They were dark 
red.   My Dad still has one. You can find them on Craigslist for not a 
lot more than scrap value.
Most people discount them because they are old, but they weld more like 
a MG welder than the new inverter welders.
They have high open circuit voltage which makes striking an arc easier 
with 7018 rod, etc.


Dave

On 9/14/2020 1:33 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020, Jon Elson wrote:


On 09/14/2020 10:42 AM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:

i'm retired
just look'n to weld steel at home
a stick welder
for about 20 years i was attached at the hip to a lincoln stovepipe
i've tried a couple of the cheap inverters and they are better than 
noth'n

just barely
i know have'n a motor-generator unit at home is out of the question
but surely something comes close

I have done some stick welding, but the flux fumes really got to me.
I finally bought a Lincoln Square Wave TIG 250 on eBay and it has 
been fantastic.
I can now weld in the basement and nobody even knows I'm doing it. 
TIG is a lot
slower than stick, but you can actually see what you are doing 
without the cloud of flux smoke,

and you can weld aluminum and copper, too!

You can likely find a decent TIG machine that isn't too expensive, 
and give your lungs a break.


i've done my share of tig on stainless tubing
not very good on heavy material
where i worked was a plant that used ammonia refrigeration
my lungs were fried decades ago


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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC 2.8.0 is released

[Dave Cole]

Awesome!   Thanks Andy and everyone who contributed!




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Re: [Emc-users] SSD reliability

[Dave Cole]

I have a number of Samsung EVO SSDs running in production equipment.  
They were either original or replacements for rotating drives.

Most of these PCs are on 24x7 and I have yet to have a SSD failure.
I think I started using Samsung SSD drives right after Samsung 
introduced them.  However I think they were called something else before 
they got the EVO name.
Most of the computers are running Linux.   A few are running Windows 
10.  (Off the internet)   Two are running Windows XP with the software 
modified so they don't randomly write to the drives.


The good thing:   They have never failed.   The bad thing:  The 
customers don't call me every few years to replace drives!


For a while I was having motherboard failures due to he bad capacitors 
that were installed on millions of motherboards, then hard drives would 
fail about every 2-3 years, and then power supplies would die.
Now, with good motherboards void of the lousy capacitors, power supplies 
are the number one issue.


I think I also have 6-8 EVO drives installed in laptops running Linux 
and Windows 7 and 10.  Both for laptops that I use and my family uses.
I am also sold on Samsung Monitors.  I have a number of them and have 
installed a number of them and none of them have died.


The Samsung SSDs are crazy reliable.

Dave



On 7/3/2020 2:39 PM, Ted wrote:
I'm quite partial to traditional 2.5" SATA SSD's; I have about 30 
servers with SAS/SATA slots running either Kingston or Sandisk 3Gb/s 
SSD's in 480Gb capacities. My home SAN runs 20 x 1TB SSD's (also 
Kingston) and if I rummage through my gig bag, I'll probably find half 
a dozen 1tb M2 SSD's in sata/usb3 cases. After about 6+ years in 24-7 
run capacity (yes, servers do get rebooted and wiped/rebuilt of 
course) in effectively webserver / asset server /db server setups - 
meaning lots of writes, I have yet to have a 2.5" 3GB/s SATA ssd fail.


Conversely, those "ultra-awesome" Crucial Micron M2 SSD modules I have 
had fail on 4 separate occasions - all of them within "warranty," and 
Crucial was not able/willing to RMA any of them - completely lousy 
customer service, which tempted me to just "buy and replace" through 
amazon (no I didn't, morally incorrect, but tempting). I also have 
some of the hybrids (both early Hitachi, whatever Apple was using in 
the early mac pro tubes) - many of those have failed, so I avoid 
hybrids like the plague, even if that new Fire series from Seagate is 
touted as the next best thingfor full transparency, I do have 
another SAN shelf with 24 1TB 2.5" traditional spindles (because it's 
an SAS-only shelf without interposers) that has been a solid performer 
for a long time - probably up 5+ years now, the only time off was 
moving the server racks and power failures. It's a Netapp shelf, so 
somewhat surprising that it has held up so well (nothing to do with 
the drives however).


Which just goes to show that mileage may vary wildly. I could have a 
dozen drives go out within 5 minutes of hitting send, or not. But for 
power savings and speed*, and not having to worry about what happens 
if a server is mounted directly on top of the UPS stack, or how the 
drives get transported, SSD media is a benefit in my book.


(* - my server installs have shown to run faster against the default 
SAS 72GB slow drives that my servers come with - some folks have shown 
that SSDs can be slower than fast HD's with specific testing, and that 
stable platters consume less continuous power than idle SSDs during 
initial writing. My power bill tells a different story.)


Cheers,

Ted.




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Re: [Emc-users] cloning hard drive to new SSD

[Dave Cole]

Look up R-Drive image.   It works with Windows and will clone just about 
anything.  Linux drives are no big deal.

Its not free, but its not expensive either.
I have two USB to IDE/Sata adapters that I used to clone drives.  Or you 
can use one adapter and save the image from one drive and restore it 
onto the other drive in two different sessions.   That way you can also 
keep a backup of the image on another drive.


Dave

On 4/22/2020 10:22 PM, andrew beck wrote:

Hey guys.

Just a quick question here

I recently heard some funny clanking noises in my old 2nd hand hard drive
on my VMC and thought I better change it out and get a SSD in there.

I have a bunch of stuff loaded onto the hardrive for probe basic gui and
other stuff and would like to clone the drive and keep everything.

I can manage a windows cloning I am just not sure if the process will work
on a linux system.  I am using a crucial brand SSD and can download the
drive cloning software (it is rebadged acronis cloning software)

anyway some help would be appreciated.


regards

Andrew

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Re: [Emc-users] Gecko Failure

[Dave Cole]

I agree, however I wonder how long you have to wait until the Phoenix 
connector rises again???  ;-)


And perhaps it needs to be further burnt to complete "ashes" ??

Perhaps a call to the Phoenix connector support hotline is in order?

;-)

Dave

On 4/6/2020 9:58 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 6 Apr 2020 at 14:55, andy pugh  wrote:


I wonder if that is a real or fake Phoenix connector?

I suppose you will know if a new connector arises from the ashes.




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Re: [Emc-users] Gecko Failure

[Dave Cole]

I'd contact Geckodrive and send them that picture.

Dave

On 4/6/2020 12:24 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:

Anyone ever run into this sort of thing with a G213V driver?
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/G213V-Failure.jpg

It was running the Knee with a 1200 oz-in motor and 60VDC power supply.

John



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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc openlung ventilators

[Dave Cole]

When I was 15, (> 45 years ago) I had double pneumonia and I was 
hospitalized for 10 days.  It seemed like weeks.
Two large penicillin injections in my rump each day.   Breathing 
treatments every hour at the beginning and then less frequently as I 
improved.  You wouldn't believe the amount of crap I managed to cough 
up.  The breathing solution was some type of saline solution.  You could 
do almost the same thing by inhaling saline mist.  Think spray bottle, 
etc.  It didn't taste good but it loosened the phlegm.

I was never put on a ventilator.
At the beginning I waited for each breathing treatment.   Breathing was 
hard and painful.  And I was in great shape at the time.   I was an avid 
bike rider and did more than 100 miles per day sometimes.    So I've 
been there, and I'm not looking forward to a repeat.  Once is enough.


Keeping your lungs inflated is really important.
A CPAPs primary purpose is to keep your airways inflated.    Its my 
understanding that a Ventilator does the same thing, except that it 
periodically drops the pressure so you can exhale easier (if you can 
exhale) and it also injects some oxygen as well.    Of course most 
people on Ventilators are also intubated.  Not so with a CPAP.


If you have an Oxy-fuel welding setup, you have an oxygen tank.   
Medical oxygen flowmeters are cheap, but a tig/mig welding flow meter 
could work as well.  Not a lot of flow is needed unless you are in 
really bad shape, and likely not needed all of the time.  (Typical flows 
are on the web)


Oximeters are also cheap.  A lot of people already have them.

Pray you don't need a real ventilator.

What you are coughing up will tell you a lot:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6303513/What-does-colour-phlegm-mean-cold-pneumonia-lung-cancer.html 



Dave

On 3/24/2020 11:02 AM, dave engvall wrote:

Implications?

Gleaned from a medical  site.

"Coronavirus is enveloped, meaning the virus has coating on the 
outside of it. As it happens, the envelope means that the virus 
doesn’t survive well outside of the body—they usually can’t last 
longer than 24 hours outside of the body and usually only last less 
than 12. This is a good thing in terms of containing an outbreak. It 
also means coronavirus can be killed by hand sanitizer and soaps, 
which isn’t the case with other types of viruses (most notoriously 
norovirus), so your biggest defense against coronavirus is washing 
your hands. The problem with viral envelopes is that they allow the 
virus to more easily evade your immune system. So, the enveloped virus 
has a disadvantage outside of a person, but once it gets in, the 
envelope gives it a dangerous edge. Enveloped viruses (which include 
influenza) tend to cause longer, more problematic infections for this 
reason and are more difficult to develop a vaccine for because of the 
envelope".


Remember, FDA regs are meant to be all encompassing not just virus 
specific.  A virus is an obligate intracellular parasite. They are not 
very tough extracellular.  I think this makes the sterility barrier 
much lower. However, a damp warm environment is just perfect for 
bacterial and fungal growth. Still having a sub micron filter in line 
screens a lot of junk.


Changing subjects slightly I read an unconfirmed note that one of the 
early symptoms of corona virus infection was a loss of smell. 
Interesting but single  source.


Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Wedding rings vs R8 or ER42 collets.

[Dave Cole]

FYI,

This doesn't answer your question but might give you some ideas.
Back in High School, a few years ago, it was somewhat traditional that 
when a girl was serious about about a guy, he would give her his class 
ring to wear.

Of course the rings were generally way too big for the girls.
In order for them not to fall off and get lost, the girls frequently 
wrapped string (like kite string) around the ring on the backside.


Dave

On 11/17/2019 10:50 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

My wife, whose is slowly losing weight, down to the low 70 lbs, meaning
shes a bag of fragile bones.

And her wedding band has got so loose she's afraid of losing it.

I suggested that the jewelers usually have an expandable tapered arbor,
and a collet of sorts that can adjust a ring, cold, by about a size,
more if heated.

But what about my ER42 kit? It ought to be able to do this compression to
restore a decent fit, or would I wreck the ER42's ball bearing nut
trying to put that much squeeze on the ring?

Its simple 18 carat gold, about .130" wide, and about 1/32" thick.

What say you all?

Thanks.

  
Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] Machine For Conversion?

[Dave Cole]

Hass seems to have a good service organization and that can be a big 
deal if you have a breakdown on  a critical machine and can't repair it 
yourself.


Dave


On 11/6/2019 10:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 11/06/2019 12:32 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
The seller who is the original owner says that the machine is tight 
and was in good operating condition when it was pulled from service 
10 years ago.


The machine was used primarily for mold making back in the day, so 
I'm pretty sure it has full 3 axis.


The main decision maker is having cold feet, now and thinks it would 
be a better plan to buy something 4x as expensive and 20years newer, 
that would have a serviceable control as is. (and he may be right.)  
But I was kind of looking forward to the challenge.


Now He thinks this might be a better deal for us.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-Haas-VF-2-D-Vertical-Machining-Center-Side-Mount-ATC/323966324202?hash=item4b6de5cdea:g:LH0AAOSw7RtdvDET 



Haas have lightweight linear roller guideways which causes short 
working life.  I was astonished to see the same size guideways on a 10 
Hp Haas milling machine we got at work as I have on my pick and place 
machine which has no
cutting forces at all!  People who use them do love their controls, 
however.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Whereare you getting your wire from?

[Dave Cole]

On 10/29/2019 9:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 29 October 2019 06:58:34 andy pugh wrote:


On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 10:47, Roland Jollivet

 wrote:

Is this something difficult to get in your country?

Gene is in the US, so I wouldn't have expected so. I have forgotten
where you are.


I can walk into any electrical store and ask for 2-core cable

The UK has quite restrictive rules on cabling, but despite that it
isn't hard to find wire in any DIY store:
https://www.diy.com/departments/electrical-security/cables-cable-manag
ement/home-wiring-cables/DIY579382.cat

Before they shut down their physical shops I used to go to Maplin a
lot, they were open on Sunday and they had a good selection of hook up
and equipment cable. Now I have to make sure I am out of the house
before noon on Saturday to walk to the end of my street to the local
TLC: https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Index/index.html

But for machine installations I like to use the purpose-made oil and
flex resistant cable chain stuff that Rapid handily sell by the metre.
That requires mail-order or a 35 mile trip (but, again, Rapid open on
Saturday 0900-1300)
https://www.rapidonline.com/Catalogue/Search?Query=drag%20cable=C
ommunications%20%26%20Control%20Cables

You are far better served than I am in a county seat village of about
5000 here in WV, USA. There may be similar places in Star
City=Charleston, 100 miles south, but w/o a phone book, I'd have no way
to find them. So for >75% of what I need, its online & drag out the
card. Saves me hugely on gas since even on a 100 mile run my 4wd pickup
gets under 16 mpg, at the cost of time if the only source is half-way
around this ball of iron.  Hong Kong to here is 3+ weeks, add 2 more
from the interior.  The vacuum that represents is about 10-34 torr.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



I live near a city of just over 100K people and the electrical 
distributors around here carry building wire, and THHN stranded type 
wire 14 gauge and on up, but very little multiconductor control cable or 
low voltage tinned hook up wire.  They can get it, but you will have to 
order it.   I make up control panels periodically and most of are 24 VDC 
/ 480 VAC.   I buy most of the low voltage wire online as the local 
industrial stores don't stock it.  Since it has to be shipped to the 
local store, it might as well be shipped directly to me.


Wesbell Electronics is a good source of low voltage control panel 
wire.    https://www.wbwireandcable.com/  I'm sure there are others.


Dave






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Re: [Emc-users] Whereare you getting your wire from?

[Dave Cole]

Menards was selling some surprisingly nice low voltage control wiring 
with two conductors two years ago for a good price.   I bought a hundred 
feet of it or so to wire up some air valves on a machine and I was in a 
rush.

It was real stranded copper and I believe it was 18 gauge.
Two conductors in a jacket.
Its been on the machine for 2 years now, no issues.

Dave

On 10/26/2019 6:28 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;


I went out to wire that pump up today, but discovered that nominally 1/3
roll of small zip cord I thought I had, seems to have obtained some
growth hormone, grew legs and walked off.  Might not have been enough
anyway.

So who has the miniature zip cord at the best price on this side of the
pond? I'd like a 50 or 100 foot spool.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] got those peristaltic pumps.

[Dave Cole]

Ok, but one pot could feed all 4 machines.
And no pumps.. no drivers for the pumps.
Almost no wiring.
No special hose to replace.
Very ... low tech.
That small pressure pot is two quarts.
Put it on the floor or hang it from the ceiling.
The pressure pot won't care where it is.

Dave

On 10/24/2019 1:45 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 23 October 2019 22:16:40 Dave Cole wrote:


https://www.harborfreight.com/2-1-2-half-gallon-pressure-paint-tank-66
839.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools-compressors/air-spray-guns/hvl
p-lvlp-spray-guns/64-oz-professional-hvlp-air-spray-gun-kit-62895.html

This is what i was talking about.   I have both a similar pressure pot
for paint and the exact spray gun and pot.

And where, on a 6040, do you propose to hide all that? By the time I've a
4 gallon file box behind it for motor coolant, I have plumb used up a
2x4 foot tabletop.  Its monstrous compared to an 8oz coke bottle for
reservoir and a teeny little $7 pump just over an inch in diameter and
2" long, and a bunch of weed eater fuel line to get to the nozzle base
currently screwed to the motor mount.
   

All these do is create pressurized fluid at whatever PSI you set on
the regulator.

If you use one of these with a fast solenoid valve and an orifice, you
can meter fluids out fairly precisely.

Their air use is insignificant, unless the pot leaks.

Another thing you could do is to use a drip feed into a line.  Use a
needle valve or tube pinch valve to regulate a gravity flow of fluids.
Think IV medical fluid feed.

If you could find an IV feed pump you might be all set!    (Ebay
??)    :-)

Thats precisely what these teeny pumps are for.  The hose isn't readily
replaceable should it crack and fail, so I bought 4 of them. I doubt if
I'll last long enough to use them all.

Besides, I have 4 machines now, all of which would be improved by a
coolant mist...

Thanks Dave, but...

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] got those peristaltic pumps.

[Dave Cole]

https://www.harborfreight.com/2-1-2-half-gallon-pressure-paint-tank-66839.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools-compressors/air-spray-guns/hvlp-lvlp-spray-guns/64-oz-professional-hvlp-air-spray-gun-kit-62895.html

This is what i was talking about.   I have both a similar pressure pot 
for paint and the exact spray gun and pot.


All these do is create pressurized fluid at whatever PSI you set on the 
regulator.


If you use one of these with a fast solenoid valve and an orifice, you 
can meter fluids out fairly precisely.


Their air use is insignificant, unless the pot leaks.

Another thing you could do is to use a drip feed into a line.  Use a 
needle valve or tube pinch valve to regulate a gravity flow of fluids.

Think IV medical fluid feed.

If you could find an IV feed pump you might be all set!    (Ebay ??)    :-)

Dave

On 10/23/2019 4:44 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 22 October 2019 22:23:05 Dave Cole wrote:


I'm surprised your not using a pressure pot to spray the coolant.
You could put an electric valve on the output and pulse it on and off.
Harbor Freight has a cheap pressure pot/spray gun setup.  Just use the
pot. Sometimes low tech is good.  :-)

Dave

I was at the hf store in Buckhannon a week ago and wandered around
looking for something I could use, but the only thing I saw would have
used a gallon an hour.  Way too much.  My target is about a 5 to l0 lb
blow, carrying half a cc a minute or less. I figure with this pump,
being stroked by the pwmgen, I can turn it maybe 1 or 2 revs a minute.

But since the servo period is a millisecond, I can't pulse it at
4kilohertz, as I wrote earlier, but at a minimum of 1 khz. Banging it
for a millisec every 50 millisecs ought to be in the usable range.  But
we'll see. Dry, and hooked to 12 volts, I'd guess it runs about 1.5 rps.
That would drain the 8 oz coke bottle in 20 minutes and flood the table
making a mess.  So its got to slow down, a lot. It apparently has a
planetary reduction in it, my guess is at least 10/1. I'd like the mist
to be almost self drying. Air consumption will be a problem too as its
only a cheep 2 horse, 8 gallon compressor. Direct drive, noisy. Needs an
input muffler. I don't figure it can run 50% of the time and survive an
hour.
I found a motor driver, s/b 2 of then here next Monday, so the suspense
will be replaced by making a smaller nozzle for the flex hose. writing a
bit of hal code and making it work better than what I've got now...

Thanks Dave.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] got those peristaltic pumps.

[Dave Cole]

I'm surprised your not using a pressure pot to spray the coolant.
You could put an electric valve on the output and pulse it on and off.
Harbor Freight has a cheap pressure pot/spray gun setup.  Just use the pot.
Sometimes low tech is good.  :-)

Dave

On 10/22/2019 9:22 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 22 October 2019 19:31:59 Thaddeus Waldner wrote:


I think the cheap 298 devices on eBay would work for you. They are
2-channel h-bridge. They actually have 6 inputs; forward, reverse, and
enable for each channel. They will turn a motor from a single PWM
signal, either via the enable input with one direction pin high, one
low, or via a direction input with enable high and opposite direction
low.

That may be so, but indicates a smarter version of the L298 than I tried
to use 20 some years ago, generating a pwm in a pc to drive it with
then, and the thing I most remember is burning my fingers on the heat
sink at 12 volts applied dc. The motor didn't fair much better, no
current regulation resistor change made any diff.  Fooled with it for
about a week, made up my mind it would never find a home in any of my
stuff. 3 of them acted exactly the same. And it hasn't. They went out
with the trash. A year or so later I had bought the hf micro mill, and
while looking for motor drivers found the 2M542, bought 5 of them so I'd
have a spare. So far I have bought 9 of them, and nearly 20 years later,
they are all working like new right now. Zero failures=no regrets.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] ADC - realtime for load cell

[Dave Cole]

So you want to balance the load on the platform with a single load cell?
That's going to be nearly impossible.

The reason is that when you drive the load up, the load cell will see an 
increase in force due to acceleration.


So you will need some position feedback as well.

Dave




On 9/18/2019 7:36 PM, Curtis Dutton wrote:

my experiment is to use a force measuring device to proportionally control
torque output on a servo attached to a ball screw.

as a thought experiment imagine a platform hoisted by said ball screw. as
you added weight to the platform the motor torque would increase to offset
the weight and keep it steady. or you could set the required force equal to
X kgs and with less than X kgs on the platform it would travel up
proportionally. the motor would increase torque to maintain the force
value. if more force than X the platform would travel down proportionally.
the motor would decrease torque to maintain the set force value.

in effect not a position commanded but a force commanded linear actuator.

is there some othere device that would be better for this type of force
measurement? in the 0 to about 500kg range.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 11:51 AM Chris Albertson 
wrote:


in any case, even with lower 16-bit precision, the most important part of
the design is the analog portion that sits between the load cell and the
A/D converter.



On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:38 AM Curtis Dutton  wrote:


Chris thanks for the info.

I'm not exactly certain at this point what precision I need. I'll be
determining that experimentally later. I will keep in mind what you have
said, I'll deal with it after I get my hardware running.


On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 6:17 PM Chris Albertson <

albertson.ch...@gmail.com

wrote:


If you want better than 16-bits and 1KHz then you also are going to

need

a

very good quality analog signal conditioning and instrumentation

amplifier.

   The analog circuit between the A/D converts and the load cell really

does

matter.   You have to reject common-mode or the low bits will just

be

filled with 60Hz noise.  And you can not simply use a "brick wall"

filter

or you will not get the desired bandwidth through.  (If you are needing

to

sample at 1K then you must care about 500Hz bandwidth.

This matters a LOT more than which A/D chip you use.

22 bits is better than one part per million. Do you really need that?

It

will be hard to isolate all of the electrical and mechanical noise
especially

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 2:26 PM Curtis Dutton 

wrote:

I have a pet project I'm starting that will involve reading a load

cell

in

as near as real time as possible and using that input for servo

control.

I plan on using mesa hardware to interface to the equipment. Does

anyone

know of a nice way to interface hotsmot2 to a load cell?

I would like a fairly high resolution. 16 bit minimum, the higher the
better up to 22 bit I suppose. As well as the ability to sample at

the

servo thread rate of 1 Khz.


Thanks,
Curtis

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--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ADC - realtime for load cell

[Dave Cole]

On 9/18/2019 11:15 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 6:17 PM Chris Albertson 
 wrote:
If you want better than 16-bits and 1KHz then you also are going to 
need a
very good quality analog signal conditioning and instrumentation 
amplifier.


I've never heard of anybody getting 16-bit resolution from a load cell 
or strain gauge.
There are full-bridge strain gauges with additional adjustments to 
balance the common mode noise down to the minimum, but still, 16 bits 
is one part in 65,536, which is really tough for
any analog electronics.  Most people say that anything better than 1 
part in 10,000 is getting extreme.  Anyway, strain gauges produce very 
small signals, so a really good amplifier that cancels out all noises 
is critical.  Ambient RF that gets rectified in the amplifier inputs 
will likely be the greatest problem.


Jon





If you need 16+ bits of resolution to see enough the changes to drive 
your servos, your control design is likely incorrect.


Try and change your mechanics or sensing method so you have a more 
significant signal, otherwise noise will drive your control loop/s crazy.


Strain gauges have their limits.

Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] Input Line Filters?

[Dave Cole]

I would definitely put a reactor, filter/s, or isolation transformer on 
the front end of the cheap drives.
If you are not running the drive cables (the cables between the drives 
and the motors) in conduit or metallic seal tite, I would use shielded 
cable.
Otherwise you risk RFI issues.     I've seen some horrible RFI issues 
with cheap AC drives.


Some drives require reactors between the drives and the motors if the 
line lengths are long..  like over 100 ft.


I've had good luck with Automation Directs line filters.  And you can 
run multiple AC drives off a single Automation Direct filter, but you 
need to make sure you don't exceed the current ratings, etc.


Dave

On 8/15/2019 5:21 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

I am preparing to install a half dozen el cheapo Chinese VFDs on a machine.  
Any one have any idea if I need to or should be putting input line filters on 
them?  No mention of anything like this in the Chinglish manual.  If so how do 
you choose what size?  Could I use 1 big one, or will I need a separate one for 
each drive?
How about rectifiers on the output lines?  I'm assuming those are rated by kva.

They are 3ph 220v 3kw drives and spindle motors.

Is it possible to set the speed on all of these using a single analog command 
signal (they will all need to run at the same speed anyway.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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Re: [Emc-users] how to get 2.8 linuxcnc installed. And do people prefer classic ladder or external plc for toolchange.

[Dave Cole]

My answer is it depends.

If you already have I/O that you can use, and you can do the logic in 
Classic Ladder or a component, then that will work.
If you need to add high current I/O or need 120 or 220 volt AC I/O then 
you might as well buy a cheap PLC.   The Click PLC with the Modbus TCP 
interface is about as inexpensive as they come.   You usually can't buy 
remote I/O for what the entire PLC costs.  I've used them as I/O 
connected to a dedicated PC for a custom data/control system.  In that 
case the only logic in the PLC is an end statement so the PLC will 
cycle. Then I just write and read to the PLC via Modbus TCP.    I've 
done the same thing with the older serial Modbus PLCs.   I've never had 
a Click PLC fail yet but I also avoid relay outputs.  No matter what you 
do, relay outputs will eventually fail depending on how frequently you 
cycle the relays.


Just remember that if you do use an external PLC and put a program in 
it, you still need to do the config in LinuxCNC to get the data back and 
forth to the PLC so the PLC can interact.  But you can keep the 
interface simple. Pass it an integer for the tool number required and 
then tell it to get that tool, etc.   Wait for the tool fetch to 
complete, then continue, etc.


Programming a dedicated PLC like the Click PLC is easier for me than 
programming in Classic Ladder. And some tool changers can be very 
complex logically.


Dave

On 8/16/2019 7:29 AM, andrew beck wrote:

Hi guys

I am currently running 2.7 linuxcnc.  I think it is the stretch iso but I
am not sure.  how to I tell if I have linuxcnc stretch iso.  would love it
if someone could show me a simple way to tell what i have.  there must be
some show command.

I just wondered what is involved in changing to 2.8 and is there a iso that
I can just flash the computer with or do I have to build from source.  as I
saw 2.9 is out now so I guess 2.8 must be getting a lot of use.

Also I was wondering what most people use for all the toolchanger logic
nowdays.  I have seen reference to components and all sorts of stuff
recently.  I was wondering what is the best way.  I currently know of three
options that people use.

1  just use the onboard classic ladder which is not very nice to use and
hard to learn.  advantages are everything is contained within linuxcnc

2 just use a external click PLC.  advantages are easy setup and probably
rock solid

3 use toolchanger components and remapped G codes.

If people could reply to these comments with what they vote best and
ideally a link to the best way to complete the option, I would really
appreciate it.

Regards

Andrew


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

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Re: [Emc-users] Looks like the Pi4 is out

[Dave Cole]

On 6/24/2019 5:41 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 07:47, Chris Albertson  wrote:


It's a big upgrade, much faster networking, much improved video and options
for up to 4GB RAM.

What exquisite timing. I designed and made an aluminium case this
weekend, for the 3B+, but it won't fit the 4 (mainly because the USB
and Ethernet sockets have swapped position)

I was looking at the dumping ground that is the area in front of the
books on the bookshelf behind my TV. It seems to indicate that I have
a SBC collecting problem.
Pi3B+
Pi2
Rock 64
Udoo Quad
CHIP
BeagleBone Black
Arduino Uno
Arduino Mega
8 x Arduino Nano
2 x MicroView (Arduino built in to a display)
2 x ItsyBitsy M4 (Arduino Nano form factor, 120MHz Cortex M4 with
floating point support and 512KB Flash and 192KB RAM)

And I have never done anything much with any of them.


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


Put them in boxes, eventually you will forgot that you ever had them.  ;-)

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

[Dave Cole]

Only a cup of each?   So I may have over done it a bit.   I can be a bit 
of an over-achiever when it comes to chuck holes.
I'm thinking that something happened, as the number of flies around the 
holes has picked up quite a bit.

Accidents happen!


On 6/18/2019 1:20 PM, Dave Matthews wrote:

I had a chuck next to the house a couple years ago.  I haven't seen him
since a cup of bleach and a cup of ammonia accidentally fell into the hole
...


On Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 12:09 Dave Cole  wrote:


On 6/18/2019 11:20 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

To me, thats a sign they never paid any
attention to the physics when they were in school all those years ago,
but I'm doing it on an 8th grade education that ended in '49.  Gotta
move my ears back a bit to make room for the grin.:)

There are a number of technical areas that have been ignored by schools
and there are some huge shortages in talent because of that.

Skilled machinists are only one.   Skilled metal fabricators are hard to
find.   Radio transmitter maintenance?  Where would you even go to
school to learn that?

I'm doing fine other than working a bit more than I would like for this
time of year.
I'm not getting any younger and I reach for the bottle of Aleve a lot
more than I used to.

I've got a Bridgeport mill waiting for a conversion.   But I need to
pour some concrete to set it on.
I have an addition on the back of my garage I added years ago and a
ground hog (or army of ground hogs) invaded and they have put two
tunnels under the floor.  So I'm battling ground hogs for the moment.
I think I found the fix after much searching.  Ammonia poured in the
holes will drive them out and keep them out... I have been told...
nothing else worked.  They ignored live traps loaded with tasty food.
They are extremely wary.

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Posting order

[Dave Cole]

Oh well.   I think it is still true that Sherwin William will mix oil 
paint to a scanned color.

At least they were a few months ago.
Dave

On 6/18/2019 11:23 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:

Hi Dave,
This was months ago that I went looking.  For some reason Gene responded to
"On Sunday 31 March 2019 10:20:38 pm John Dammeyer wrote:"

The CNC cabinet colour matches the Mill depending on the light.

  I'm still having issues with US Digital Encoders verse CUI AMT112 series 
encoder.  I've finished assembling my other two STMBL servo drives but haven't 
had time to connect the DC motor to them to test if they also lose position 
like the HP_UHU drives do.

John



-Original Message-----
From: Dave Cole [mailto:linuxcncro...@gmail.com]
Sent: June-18-19 7:56 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Posting order

On 6/16/2019 9:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

I have a few years to go but for some reason still feeling growly.
Went looking for some tintable alkyd enamel paint today to match the
mill so I could paint the CNC cabinet.  What a wasted day.  No one
carries this anymore.  All water based.


Do you have a Sherwin Williams store near you?

If so I would call them.

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

[Dave Cole]

On 6/18/2019 11:20 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

To me, thats a sign they never paid any
attention to the physics when they were in school all those years ago,
but I'm doing it on an 8th grade education that ended in '49.  Gotta
move my ears back a bit to make room for the grin.:)


There are a number of technical areas that have been ignored by schools 
and there are some huge shortages in talent because of that.


Skilled machinists are only one.   Skilled metal fabricators are hard to 
find.   Radio transmitter maintenance?  Where would you even go to 
school to learn that?


I'm doing fine other than working a bit more than I would like for this 
time of year.
I'm not getting any younger and I reach for the bottle of Aleve a lot 
more than I used to.


I've got a Bridgeport mill waiting for a conversion.   But I need to 
pour some concrete to set it on.
I have an addition on the back of my garage I added years ago and a 
ground hog (or army of ground hogs) invaded and they have put two 
tunnels under the floor.  So I'm battling ground hogs for the moment.   
I think I found the fix after much searching.  Ammonia poured in the 
holes will drive them out and keep them out... I have been told...  
nothing else worked.  They ignored live traps loaded with tasty food.  
They are extremely wary.


Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Posting order

[Dave Cole]

On 6/16/2019 9:47 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

I have a few years to go but for some reason still feeling growly.
Went looking for some tintable alkyd enamel paint today to match the
mill so I could paint the CNC cabinet.  What a wasted day.  No one
carries this anymore.  All water based.



Do you have a Sherwin Williams store near you?

If so I would call them.

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

[Dave Cole]

On 6/16/2019 9:43 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Anyway, its all moot as I took the locked up in 2nd gear rear axle out of
the craftsman and replaced it with the same unit from the John Deere.
Cuts grass like a golf green now.


There is always more than one way to get to a solution.

So apparently you aren't feeling too bad if you are swapping axles.

That's good !   :-)

Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

[Dave Cole]

Whoops, I meant Onan.

Dave
On 6/5/2019 9:55 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

If this is turning into a small engine clinic, I have an old (late '70s vintage) Onan 
NHCV engine that is giving me huge problems.  The "V" in NHCV means that this 
engine sucks, quite literally in more ways than one.  It is a vacuum cooled engine, where 
the flywheel sucks the air over the engine to cool it instead of blowing.   Long story 
short, it spit out one of its exhaust valve seats, I'm guessing from inadequate cooling.  
I've tried to peen the seat back in, but I still have to lap the valve and adjust the 
valve lash, before trying to start it.

I'd love to repower it with something else, but unfortunately in this 
application (a skid loader) it isn't very practical without major modification 
to convert it to using a conventional air cooled engine.  What would really be 
nice would be one of those little water cooled Kawasaki V-twins, but the $2k 
price tag is a little more than I can stomach right now.  (for the 3 or 4 times 
a year I might use the thing.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson 
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 10:09 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

I had the same thing happen to a car a long time ago,  Back when I worked
on them myself.   It ran on five cylinders and the 6th one had a tiny hole
in it and it acted like a pump to pressurize the crankcase.That is the
only way to explain oil shooting out the crankcase:  Somehow cylinder
compression is getting in around the pistons.   You will be able to see it
with the head removed. Yes, it could be a head gasket if compression gets into 
an oil passage that leads back to the crankcase.

As for garden tools.  All my gas powered stuff is gone.  I'm 100% electric.  It 
is all battery powered.  Zero maintenance and they always work.  My next car 
will be electric too.

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 3:17 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:


Greetings all;

A month ago my old JD rider was running clean and did the front yard
nicely, then I had a water leak and used it to stretch out a coil of
3/4" plastic to reach from the meter into the house.  Has been sitting
there in the open gate to the back yard, gas shut off, tank nearly full.

So yesterday I tried to start it, but everytime I get it to a throttle
where it will mow, 3 seconds later a huge cloud of oil smoke and it
dies, repeat till the battery is wiped out.

Get up this morning, check the oil & its 1/2" overfull???  Put the
medium sized automatic charger on it for about 4 hours while I go get
a few things from the grocery store and stop at Fred's place & make a
deal on a Craftsman about 10 years old, a 46" with a hydraulic tranny
and a 26 hp v-twin to spin it, comes with a new deck and some wheel
weights but it will take Fred 3 days or so to get it ready to load.
His grandboy help is fishing in Canada. $850.

Come back, pull the carb and clean it, put it back totether, fires
right at about a 600 rev idle. Left the cleaner off because its oil soaked.???

Let it idle while I corral tools, come back and going to cut about 1/4
of the back yard. Wind it up to about 2500 & start to engage the deck.
geiser of oil shoots about 4 feet up in the air out of the crankcase
vent hose.

Also looks like small leak in head gasket below the exhaust valve. Par
for the course for a Briggs & this one says 11 hp.

So it looks like I deal for the bigger craftsman, The $16 question is
whats most likely wrong with the engine? This,I'm guessing is more
than a head gasket. But is it worth tearing down to see?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

[Dave Cole]

If your Wisconsin throws the seat again...

I'd consider the Harbor Freight big V twin they sell.
They have been used on smaller skid loaders.
Check out youtube.
I think with a collection of coupons you can get one for about $600.

Dave

On 6/5/2019 9:55 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

If this is turning into a small engine clinic, I have an old (late '70s vintage) Onan 
NHCV engine that is giving me huge problems.  The "V" in NHCV means that this 
engine sucks, quite literally in more ways than one.  It is a vacuum cooled engine, where 
the flywheel sucks the air over the engine to cool it instead of blowing.   Long story 
short, it spit out one of its exhaust valve seats, I'm guessing from inadequate cooling.  
I've tried to peen the seat back in, but I still have to lap the valve and adjust the 
valve lash, before trying to start it.

I'd love to repower it with something else, but unfortunately in this 
application (a skid loader) it isn't very practical without major modification 
to convert it to using a conventional air cooled engine.  What would really be 
nice would be one of those little water cooled Kawasaki V-twins, but the $2k 
price tag is a little more than I can stomach right now.  (for the 3 or 4 times 
a year I might use the thing.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson 
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 10:09 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

I had the same thing happen to a car a long time ago,  Back when I worked
on them myself.   It ran on five cylinders and the 6th one had a tiny hole
in it and it acted like a pump to pressurize the crankcase.That is the
only way to explain oil shooting out the crankcase:  Somehow cylinder
compression is getting in around the pistons.   You will be able to see it
with the head removed. Yes, it could be a head gasket if compression gets into 
an oil passage that leads back to the crankcase.

As for garden tools.  All my gas powered stuff is gone.  I'm 100% electric.  It 
is all battery powered.  Zero maintenance and they always work.  My next car 
will be electric too.

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 3:17 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:


Greetings all;

A month ago my old JD rider was running clean and did the front yard
nicely, then I had a water leak and used it to stretch out a coil of
3/4" plastic to reach from the meter into the house.  Has been sitting
there in the open gate to the back yard, gas shut off, tank nearly full.

So yesterday I tried to start it, but everytime I get it to a throttle
where it will mow, 3 seconds later a huge cloud of oil smoke and it
dies, repeat till the battery is wiped out.

Get up this morning, check the oil & its 1/2" overfull???  Put the
medium sized automatic charger on it for about 4 hours while I go get
a few things from the grocery store and stop at Fred's place & make a
deal on a Craftsman about 10 years old, a 46" with a hydraulic tranny
and a 26 hp v-twin to spin it, comes with a new deck and some wheel
weights but it will take Fred 3 days or so to get it ready to load.
His grandboy help is fishing in Canada. $850.

Come back, pull the carb and clean it, put it back totether, fires
right at about a 600 rev idle. Left the cleaner off because its oil soaked.???

Let it idle while I corral tools, come back and going to cut about 1/4
of the back yard. Wind it up to about 2500 & start to engage the deck.
geiser of oil shoots about 4 feet up in the air out of the crankcase
vent hose.

Also looks like small leak in head gasket below the exhaust valve. Par
for the course for a Briggs & this one says 11 hp.

So it looks like I deal for the bigger craftsman, The $16 question is
whats most likely wrong with the engine? This,I'm guessing is more
than a head gasket. But is it worth tearing down to see?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Wanted, small engine whiz

[Dave Cole]

You have at least one issue, perhaps more.

1.  Oil level was over full.
    The float in the carb is stuck open which causes fuel to drain into 
the carb and then into the intake valve, by the piston and into the oil 
reservoir.
 It isn't that unusual as I have had this happen on vertical shaft 
Briggs engines.

2. Plumes of smoke
    With the oil overfull with oil and gas, the oil is now very thin 
which blows by the piston rings, gets into the cylinder and blows lots 
of smoke.
3. Blowing oil out the engine - you have way too much oil and gas in the 
crankcase.


Solution:
Remove the carb and unstick the float valve/replace if needed, and clean 
the carb and blow out all of the passages.
Drain the oil and replace.  Once you get it running, drain and replace 
again to get rid of the last bits of gas in the oil.
Its best to install a fuel shutoff valve between the tank and the carb, 
that way if you have a leaky float valve, this won't happen again.

If the spark plug is fouled up really bad, you might need to replace it.

Chances are that your engine is still ok.

If you are running the tractor on standard pump gas, that is likely the 
issue.   The Ethanol in our crappy gas attacked the die castings that 
the carb is made of the results in zinc oxide (white stuff) in the carb 
which plugs up passages, etc.   If you can, start buying alcohol free 
gas and use that in your lawn equipment, weed wacker etc.   Life will 
become much easier!  :-)


I used to service small engines when I was younger.  I was even a 
McCulloch chainsaw repairman.   Back when they were a real American 
company that made things in the US.    Now McCulloch is just a brand 
name used by a Chinese company.


Dave


On 6/5/2019 3:24 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 05 June 2019 01:06:33 am Andy Pugh wrote:


On 5 Jun 2019, at 00:15, Gene Heskett  wrote:

Get up this morning, check the oil & its 1/2" overfull???

Is it a vacuum fuel tap? If the vacuum diaphragm goes it can let fuel
in to the crankcase.

No, straight gravity feed, with a hand operated globe valve (1/4 turn)
shut off in middle of line from tank to carb.  It did not leak, other
than draining the paper fuel filter downstream of the valve while turned
off and left hanging when I removed the carb to give it a soaking in
carb cleaner. I drove it around at idle to park it in front of the
garage, lots closer to the toolboxes. I have another rider with a 12.5
it it, and its a tossup, but since the deck on the other one is in much
better shape, I am tempted to put the rear end/tranny out of the JD
under the even older craftsman if I can see the shifter can be made to
work.

But Fred can have that bigger 26 hp craftsman ready in about the same
time frame if not quicker, with a brand new deck under it. So I think
I'll wait. This ones big enough to push a snowplow, if A, I can find
one, and B, global warming ever lets it snow here again. We had 3" once
last winter, and 3" only makes me drive a little smoother. My F150 crew
cab is 4wd of course. WV, with all its hills, has more 4wd's than 2wd's
in the small truck category.  You want flat ground to park it on? Bring
a cat and a few barrels of #2 to feed it.  Ditto for the mowers, they
wear wheel weights on the drivers and chains year round.

I saw a 4wd rider, a kubota, at Freds, but it belongs to a local church.
Sure would have been right at home on my lot. I'd guess it was close to
$12G's new. Had that teeny single cylinder diesel in it. Wife's niece
has the same engine in a miniature pickup, 25 yo, starts by steppiing on
the throttle, and has never been touched. It just fires up and takes you
anyplace on Rusties place you point it at. He has around 6k acres of
Cornell land (Cornell is a land grant school) and around 1200 of his
own. Was dairy farming, but the price paid for milk in the cooler right
now is about a buck a gallon less than the cows eat, so he quit milking
3 or 4 years back and is now selling the grain that the milk barn used
to need. And keeping the rest of the other NY dairy farms stock up. His
Holstein herd is now a calf factory.


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Re: [Emc-users] Dual boot for WIN-XP and LinuxCNC

[Dave Cole]

The hobby licenses look like they will run on multiple machines, but the 
pro licenses appear to be locked to the hardware.
I think they had to do something since their Mach3 licenses were being 
reused on Chinese machines over and over again.
If they go out of business I think a pro user could be in trouble.  But 
I suspect that they would do what they could to make things right.


https://www.machsupport.com/help-learning/software-licensing-info/

Dave

On 6/3/2019 12:16 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 06/03/2019 10:02 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
 Mach4 is unknown to me and requires a phone home license.  Is there 
a compelling reason to go there?
Does this mean Mach4 will no longer run if Artsoft closes or changes 
their net address?

Yikes, I sure would not want to be locked in like that!

Jon





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Re: [Emc-users] Dual boot for WIN-XP and LinuxCNC

[Dave Cole]

On 6/1/2019 5:01 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
The host needs to run the Servo thread (typically at 1 KHz) reliably 


Yep, and that isn't possible with WinXP.    Mach3 runs a buffered 
interface to the Smoothstepper.  I think there is about 100 ms of 
buffered data at anyone time.


WinXP is pretty much antique software.   Win7 support goes away in 
January.   Not that I'm all that concerned about Windows support.


But drivers will begin to be a problem soon for Win7 as manufacturers 
drop support for the software.


https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsforbusiness/end-of-windows-7-support

Trying to dual boot WinXP and Linux is a waste of time.
Get another computer if you want to play with both.

The entire Mach3 vs LinuxCNC thing is a dead subject.  Mach3 runs on 
obsolete software only.  Its a dead end product.  WinXP might as well be 
DOS.  Mach4 is unknown to me and requires a phone home license.  Is 
there a compelling reason to go there?  I don't know of one.


Windows 10 compatibility is nice, but just having Windows 10 is a double 
edge sword.  They update it when they want, and the user has little 
control of the OS updates.


Regarding the command line thing:
I've got a customer who has been running an automated Waterjet CNC 
machine ( conveyor input sheet feeder ), automatic squaring, etc for 
over 10 years now.  No one in the plant knows anything about the 
"command line" or even what that means.  If I called them and told them 
to pull up a command line, they would have no idea what I was talking 
about.  They load the program, enter the number of sheets to cut and hit 
the start button.  And this is all running on an old version of 
LinuxCNC.  I've set them up with spare PCs equipped with SSDs.  The last 
failure was 5+ years ago.  The PC hardware runs 24x7.  I visit that 
plant about once a year to fix something, otherwise their machine runs 
with just normal maintenance.


LinuxCNC; Whats not to like?  :-)



Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] Increasingly OT: [Was: Re: How come.... --> battery safety due to high current, DC relay

[Dave Cole]

There are some good reasons to use a 24 or 48 volt DC bus power system 
for smaller systems.
The chance of electrocution is pretty low for a 48 volt DC system in a 
dry environment.

Once you get above 50 volts or so things change.

24 volts is quite a practical voltage level for smaller systems.

Do a search for 24 volt inverters and you will find many.   48 volt, not 
as many.


I'm thinking hunting cabin, small cottage, larger boat, remote shed, etc.

Now if you want to do your entire house and have typical house loads it 
seems like a 120V+ DC bus system would make more sense.


Dave







On 5/21/2019 4:52 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:

On 21.05.19 00:31, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 7:55 PM Erik Christiansen 
wrote:


Switching normal loads is back to less than 100 A for less than 5 kW, but
still hard on contacts. (The contacts on the starter solenoid for an old
Caterpillar D6 are blocks of copper with a mm of silver on the surface,
to take the several hundred amps at 24v. IIUC, silver oxide conducts.)


This is why no one builds 24 or 48 volt DC power system for solar or backup
batteries.

Excuse me, but before making wildly inaccurate pronouncements, it might
be useful to make a study of what is on the market. Very many inverter
manufacturers offer 48v inverters, and most manufacturers of household
batteries sell 48v units - some sell nothing else. Take a detailed look,
please.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/comparison-table/
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/hybrid-inverter-comparison/

...

You were talking abou the cost of a high amp switch.  That si NOTHING
compared to the cost of the inverter you would need.You would need
racks of MOSFETs.  No one does that.

How very true - and the cost of a house is much greater than the cost of
a roofing tile.

Parallelling several MOSFETs to handle high current is common practice.
As I mentioned upthread, they self-share the current, and with e.g. 7
milliohms of resistance in each, there is modest dissipation in one, and
one ninth of that if you parallel three.


You all know the formula for power loss right?  i^2R.  That's "i squared R"
because the current is squeared you REALLY want to make it small.
not more than about 40  amps for a residence.

Indeed, that's why it's not necessary to parallel very many 7 milliohm
MOSFETs to handle 100 A. One on a heatsink dissipates 70 W, and four in
parallel dissipate 4.4W each, for 0.35% power loss.

That a high current at 48v is run only between the battery and inverter,
in hundreds of thousands of households around the world, has already
been explained. Yes, a PV system may run 600v DC or more to the PV
inverter. A battery inverter is a different animal, generally taking 48v
DC, and often putting out only 3 to 4 kW, as that's all some battery
banks will deliver. Many systems have both inverters, but now hybrid
inverters are coming onto the market, merging the two functions.


Also no one is every going to dichage a batter at the 100 amp rate.
you design the system so it cycles only one per day.

In the real world, that is being done daily all over the planet. Well,
the half of it in darkness at any moment, if we are to be precise.
No, not all night, but for brief multiple loads like microwaves and
electric kettles, the battery bank and inverter are designed to produce
5 kW, while pulling over 100 A from the battery. The Redflow ZnBr
battery is warranted to do that for 30 min, before dropping back to 3 kW
allowed, i.e. over 60 A.

Inverter cabling and switching is designed to handle that, you'll find.


Even with lead acid
batteries you can place a 10  amp fuse oneach one of them.   Then you
KNOW the maximum current on the switch is 10 amps.

If you wire 20 lead acid batteries in series you can have 1KW of power at
only 4 amps.
if the switch is rated at 10A you are good.

Please feel free to build your installation to your own design¹. I'm just
updating you on what is on the market, and how electrical engineers,
including this one, tend to build 'em currently.

The only circumstance in which I'd use lead-acid batteries, is as a
consumable to fill the gap until an adequate battery technology became
available or more cost effective. Even the more expensive "deep cycle"
LA batteries have quite limited lives at 50% DoD, and as outlined
upthread, they're expensive if discharged much less.

Erik

¹ I know of one battery inverter which will take 120 Vdc input, but none
   at 240 Vdc.


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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

We still use BTU's for small Furnace and Air Conditioner sizing...
For larger units its BTUs for furnaces and Tons of cooling for Air 
Conditioners.
Everyone knows that 12,000 btus is required to melt 1 ton of ice.  Hence 
12,000 btus is equal to "one ton" of cooling.
Who would have known that we could figure out some method to represent a 
measure of energy by a measure of weight!
So its  a value that we can relate to. And its not at all confusing! 
:-/


BTUs.. *defined* as the amount of heat required to raise the 
temperature of one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit


So now you know why we can't get in gear with the metric system.  
Nothing would work.   We would have to discard all of our old notions of 
hot and cold.
We would be buying the wrong size air conditioners and furnaces!   Our 
houses would be way too hot when we set the thermostat to 70 degrees C...


Gas BTU's  ha ha ha... no, we have invented a different unit of 
measure called the Therm.

A Therm is 100,000 BTUS of gas.
Currently a Therm of natural gas costs about $0.75 for me right now.
On my gas bill, I get a meter reading from the meter on the side of my 
house.   That meter reading is based on 1/2 psi gas delivery, 
unfortunately I have 2 psi gas delivery, so they apply a correction 
factor to get cubic feet that is then translated into therms based upon 
some testing that occurred on their gas some time ago for heat content.


I think my gas bill is more of an estimation of my gas use rather than 
an actual measurement!


MJs of gas would make way too much sense.

Dave




Wikipedia suggests that you still use BTUs for gas?



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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

Apparently you guys didn't notice that the Ebay guy selling Tesla cells 
had already sold over a hundred of those battery packs.

So I doubt he got them from crashed Teslas.
To me buying a used Lithium battery makes only a little more sense than 
buying a used Lead Acid battery.
I bet I could buy a bunch of used 6 volt golf cart batteries from the 
golf courses around me as well..
If those battery packs were $300, it would be one thing, but at $1200 
plus, I don't see that as much of a deal.


Dave

On 5/19/2019 7:10 PM, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

There seems to be a pretty good supply of battery packs from wrecked Tesla 
Model S cars, often with fairly low mileage. People have been taking those 
apart to shoehorn the modules and one or both motor drivetrains into various 
other vehicles. Of course by doing that they lose the crash protection of the 
aluminum battery housing. One person flipped an empty Model S battery upside 
down, attached a couple of trailer spindles and fenders and a tongue to make a 
little flatbed trailer.

I think it'd be fun to 'gassify' a Model S. Either convert the empty battery housing to a 
fuel tank or build a tank to fit in its place, then stuff some FWD drivetrain in the 
"frunk".

 On Sunday, May 19, 2019, 10:32:52 AM MDT, Dave Cole 
 wrote:
  I do have to wonder though... if these Tesla cells were no longer usable
for a Tesla, why would anyone think they would be good in a stationary
application unless they were derated by quite a bit.
$1200 is far from free.

Dave

On 5/17/2019 12:24 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:

Here is a fairly common surplus Tesla module:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/262333679871

If these have have not been abused after they were removed from the
car they should last many thousands of deep cycles.  They are 6s but a
7th s can be added in order to cycle them deeper on a common 24 volt
system.

My system (single, living in an RV) is close to this except I am using
two Johnson Controls modules rewired as 7s:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/tesla-solar-battery-diy.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123187038180

This technology is changing so quickly that it is hard to keep current
and reviews become stale in a month or two.

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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

That's what I understood...  I won't be owning a Tesla until that changes.
Dave

On 5/18/2019 2:50 PM, Bruce Layne wrote:

Tesla has adopted the software
rental model where the customer doesn't really own anything.



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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

I do have to wonder though... if these Tesla cells were no longer usable 
for a Tesla, why would anyone think they would be good in a stationary 
application unless they were derated by quite a bit.

$1200 is far from free.

Dave

On 5/17/2019 12:24 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:


Here is a fairly common surplus Tesla module:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/262333679871


If these have have not been abused after they were removed from the 
car they should last many thousands of deep cycles.  They are 6s but a 
7th s can be added in order to cycle them deeper on a common 24 volt 
system.


My system (single, living in an RV) is close to this except I am using 
two Johnson Controls modules rewired as 7s:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/tesla-solar-battery-diy.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123187038180


This technology is changing so quickly that it is hard to keep current 
and reviews become stale in a month or two.



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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

I do have to wonder though... if these Tesla cells were no longer usable 
for a Tesla, why would anyone think they would be good in a stationary 
application unless they were derated by quite a bit.

$1200 is far from free.

Dave

On 5/17/2019 12:24 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:


Here is a fairly common surplus Tesla module:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/262333679871


If these have have not been abused after they were removed from the 
car they should last many thousands of deep cycles.  They are 6s but a 
7th s can be added in order to cycle them deeper on a common 24 volt 
system.


My system (single, living in an RV) is close to this except I am using 
two Johnson Controls modules rewired as 7s:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/tesla-solar-battery-diy.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123187038180


This technology is changing so quickly that it is hard to keep current 
and reviews become stale in a month or two.



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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

OK,
Buy  a new "cheap" Tesla - about $35,800 right now.
Remove the battery pack  ;-)

You guys on the west coast make it sound like you have Tesla's sitting 
on the side of the road with "$500 or best offer" sale signs.


We now have 11 supercharger stations in the state of Indiana.
If Tesla's burned coal or biowaste we would be all set.   :-/

What is is a "cheap" Tesla going for in places where they are popular?

Dave



So, let's turn that on its head. How can I run my cordless tools from Tesla
cells...




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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

Chris,
You need to look at the link... they look at the costs over a 10 year 
period.
Including battery bank replacement for the Lead Acid batteries.   Lead 
Acid is still cheaper.
And I think their prices for Lead Acid batteries are inflated.   I would 
also consider using a Lead Acid forklift battery (or multiples).

They are made to be rebuilt.

Sure they are heavy.   And that might be an issue for some, but if you 
have a tractor with a loader, or a forklift, then that is really not an 
issue.


Dave


On 5/16/2019 6:24 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

Let's see your parts list for a 13.6 KWH system and let's look at the cost
over a 10 year period.  List the charger/inverter  and the frame and
housing.

When you do you costing assume the system is used cycled daily.  Design in
enough margin so that tyou system still meets speciications after 10 years
of use.   Itmust still have 13.6 KWHafter 10 years of daily cycling.
  Yes, this can be done with LA.

You can get the initial cost way low but you can't run it for 10 years
without replacing all the batteries 3 or 4 times.   That is the problem is
lead-acid batteries, it is their very limited number of cycles.   You can
work out different designs.   If the goal is only low initial cost then you
will find you need a VERY frequent battery replacement schedule.   You can
greatly reduce the number of times you need to replace each cell over the
10 year period if you double the initial cost.

You can't claim LA is lower cost until you look at the total cost
of ownership, not just the up from cost.   It is possble to get  very low
up from cost or you can also "cheat" assume the system is only used for
backup power a few times a year.  But realistically you need to look at
costs of a system that is actually used over an extended period.


So, you have to make a spreadsheet or punch buttons on a calculator.A
LA cell is good for about 300 cycles to 50% discharge before it looses bout
1/2 it's capacity. SO Youfigure maybe we only go to 40% and extend this
is 400 cyccles and buy 2X as may calls so we still meet specs after 400
cyccles.Then you work out how many batteries you need using them to
only 40%of their rating and stating with 2X over capsity.  You are
"shocked" at the cost so you think about designing a yearly schedule where
you add a few batteries everyyears and remove a few every year, but maybe
you don't add and removethe same number, so long as you kee the same 13.6
KWH spaec.  Work this over a 10 year period.

The up front cost means nothing because you can make that very low but it
will cost you a LOT later. I doubt you can do $6,700 total cost over 10
years.



On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:03 PM Dave Cole  wrote:


https://www.wholesalesolar.com/blog/lead-acid-vs-lithium-batteries/

This solar company wrote up this analysis regarding Lead Acid vs Lithium
and generally recommend Lead Acid for off grid residential use.
I went through their analysis and the only problem I had with it is that
their lead acid batteries are over priced.
Which, if their Lithium batteries are priced right, means that Lead Acid
is by far the best way to go.

I think their numbers for a Crown Lead Acid bank was $2800.  I did some
numbers and figured I could create a deep cycle bank of the same
capacity for about $1800.
Making your own power wall or Lithium battery pack is certainly a
possibility, but as mentioned cell balancing circuity is required.

I have a sailboat and participate in several sailboat lists and the
overwhelming way to go for house power on a larger sailboat is to use 6V
golf cart batteries.
The cost per power stored is cheaper than using 12 volt batteries and
golf cart batteries are true deep cycle batteries which are commonly
available.
A lot of 12 volt deep cycle batteries are compromised designs.

Now if these batteries were in a mobile device, like a car, that would
be an entirely different comparison since weight is a big deal in a
mobile device.
But these are for a stationary application.

Regarding the power wall concept.  The idea of having 20+ KWHR of stored
energy in my house is a little daunting.
If a short circuit occurs and the batteries melt down, your house could
be gone.

I'd put the battery bank in an outbuilding.  If something shorts out and
the battery bank melts down, the little building may burn but my house
won't.

Dave



On 5/14/2019 2:11 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:

On 5/14/19 9:33 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty
of space so I may do a ground level install.
It would be a lot easier to maintain.

FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant
use residential install.

In my opinion, lead-acid batteries of any format are far inferior to
lithium. LA batteries need to be at full charge most of the time or
they will degrade and with good management will only last about 5
years. I ended up running my generator to cha

Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

DC power contactors are available. They are used in Golf Carts, Fork 
Lifts etc.


But you are right, DC arcs are not easy to extinguish, and that can be a 
problem.


BTW, most electric forklifts are still using Lead Acid batteries and 
many have 5 year warranties on the batteries.

Most fork trucks are used at least 5 days a week.

Dave


On 5/17/2019 6:23 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:

On 16.05.19 21:18, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

...
I'd put the battery bank in an outbuilding.  If something shorts out and
the battery bank melts down, the little building may burn but my house
won't.

There certainly is a lot of power from a byttery and it could be a
little bit hard to turn off. You put a fuse at battery cable?

If local regulations do not require a HRC (High Rupture Capacity) fuse
between the battery bank and any connection to it, then it's an
invitation to disaster. A dc arc is much more difficult to extinguish,
because there are no zero crossings, and molten metal can end up flowing
on the floor.

Small HRC fuses are generally in ceramic tubes, and are sand-filled, to
quench the arc when the element fuses. The one I have on the desk beside
me is a 100 A with a 100 kA (100,000 A) arc rupture capacity, but it's
27x44x49 mm, and is overkill. Just 10 times AH rating seems to be normal,
i.e. 2000 A rupture capacity for a 200 AH bank. (The fault current will
be limited by battery internal resistance.)


I also think DC relays have to be a little bit different than AC
relays, used an ordinary AC relay for a few few days connected to a DC
voltage and even though two switches is connected in series it
sometimes make a buzzing sound then turned off.

Most relays and switches are marked with both AC and DC current ratings.
The DC rating is always much lower, due to the difficulty of rupturing a
DC arc. Rather than bother with maintenance/replacement due to contact
deterioration after many switching cycles, I prefer to switch DC loads
with MOSFETs - they're easy to parallel, as the inherently share.

Erik


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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/blog/lead-acid-vs-lithium-batteries/

This solar company wrote up this analysis regarding Lead Acid vs Lithium 
and generally recommend Lead Acid for off grid residential use.
I went through their analysis and the only problem I had with it is that 
their lead acid batteries are over priced.
Which, if their Lithium batteries are priced right, means that Lead Acid 
is by far the best way to go.


I think their numbers for a Crown Lead Acid bank was $2800.  I did some 
numbers and figured I could create a deep cycle bank of the same 
capacity for about $1800.
Making your own power wall or Lithium battery pack is certainly a 
possibility, but as mentioned cell balancing circuity is required.


I have a sailboat and participate in several sailboat lists and the 
overwhelming way to go for house power on a larger sailboat is to use 6V 
golf cart batteries.
The cost per power stored is cheaper than using 12 volt batteries and 
golf cart batteries are true deep cycle batteries which are commonly 
available.

A lot of 12 volt deep cycle batteries are compromised designs.

Now if these batteries were in a mobile device, like a car, that would 
be an entirely different comparison since weight is a big deal in a 
mobile device.

But these are for a stationary application.

Regarding the power wall concept.  The idea of having 20+ KWHR of stored 
energy in my house is a little daunting.
If a short circuit occurs and the batteries melt down, your house could 
be gone.


I'd put the battery bank in an outbuilding.  If something shorts out and 
the battery bank melts down, the little building may burn but my house 
won't.


Dave



On 5/14/2019 2:11 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:

On 5/14/19 9:33 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty 
of space so I may do a ground level install.

It would be a lot easier to maintain.

FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant 
use residential install.


In my opinion, lead-acid batteries of any format are far inferior to 
lithium. LA batteries need to be at full charge most of the time or 
they will degrade and with good management will only last about 5 
years. I ended up running my generator to charge my FLA batteries in 
the evening if the solar had not brought them up during the day. So I 
ran the generator most days. Lithium batteries don't like to be fully 
charged so now I don't need to worry about topping up before I go to 
bed. Lead-acid batteries typically have a cycle life in the hundreds 
of cycles where lithium battery cycle life is in the thousands or 
more, and end up being cheaper in the longer term. On the other hand, 
Lithium batteries are easy to kill if they are over or under charged, 
so a proper battery manager/protector/balancer is a must. Otherwise 
they have a wide charge range and don't mind be anywhere within that 
range. I have been using these with good success for a while:
https://kit.com/jehu/lithium-battery-sources-july-2018/1274926-johnson-controls-24- 


https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/solar-charge-controllers.html

(Epever 40 amp)



I've had chargers trash batteries when they failed.  I sure wouldn't 
want that to happen to $10K worth of Lithium batteries!


Weight isn't an issue.

Dave


... snipped to end


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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty of 
space so I may do a ground level install.

It would be a lot easier to maintain.

FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant use 
residential install.


I've had chargers trash batteries when they failed.  I sure wouldn't 
want that to happen to $10K worth of Lithium batteries!


Weight isn't an issue.

Dave



On 5/9/2019 10:37 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:

On 09.05.19 10:24, Dave Cole wrote:

Erik,

Do you have a blog going on your build?
  
Now that's an idea. All I've started is the seeds of an article for

"Owner Builder" magazine - the editor was interested when we last spoke.


I'd be very interested in your solar and battery setup for your off-grid
home.

The existing home, from the 1950's & extended, only has a little 2 kW
petrol generator. The new roof which will carry the solar arrays goes up
in June, if the framing carpenters turn up on time. (Just off the phone
to 'em half an hour ago.) There's 6 or 7 kW of equator-facing panels,
but the west-facing hipped roof can only take 9 panels, so only 2.5 kW
or so - but still enough to keep pace with a modest aircon.

The best trick for allowing high power consumption straight from the
arrays, yet limiting battery charge rate to permissible maximum, is to
use a hybrid inverter - they're beginning to become more available now.
The Redflow ZnBr battery has a limited max charge rate (44A), and pretty
much any other does too, e.g. 20A/100AH of capacity for LiFePO4. The hybrid
inverter looks after that while delivering to load first.

I like the Redflow, as it's a long-life unit, unkillable by 100%
discharge. It does though need that once a fortnight to regenerate, so
it can be handy to have another battery. For off-grid, just one 10 kWh
battery is maybe enough for one occupant, but a second is great for
visitors from the city. But the reflow is about A$14k (US$10k), so I've
even been looking at old technology like NiFe. They're also robust, but
can drink a lot of distilled water, emit quite a bit of hydrogen, and
put out a bit of mist. About 80% energy recovery is common for a lot of
battery chemistries, these included. Li-Ion, or better LiFePO4, are
better efficiency-wise, but cycle life on deep discharge is less. Do
your machining in sunlight, and only run lights, computers, tv, and a
microwaved egg sanger at night, then they'll do well enough, I reckon -
certainly long enough for a better technology to reach a better price.

We know from laptops that Li-Ion loses capacity with age. The ZnBr unit
is claimed to retain capacity, just losing efficiency. If a few (cheap)
extra panels are put in the array(s), then that's pretty much covered.

One thing - the hybrid inverter should have two MPPT string inputs - one
for each PV array, as their voltage at max power will never be equal,
given widely divergent orientation.


You must have a substantial setup to be able to run your AC off your battery
bank.

I'm hoping to be able to get the roof up in time to qualify for a
current A$5k government rebate on batteries. Systems with only 6.3 kWh
battery capacity are selling well here for on-grid customers. I'd like
twice that, as without that, running the mill for hours after half a week
of overcast winter days could mean arcing the generator up for a charging
burst. But a litre of petrol now and then is a darn sight cheaper than a
big battery.


What do you do for domestic water?  A deep well?

For 55 years it's just been rainwater tanks. I'll be putting in another
90,000 litres of tanks, to catch it when it does come. There'll be
nearly 400 m² of roof all up. (But yes, years ago in a big drought it
really was bathe the baby in a bucket of water, use that to wash her
clothes, then wash the lino floor with it, then put it on the few garden
plants you could keep going.) The concern is that a tight rain deficit
might be shaping up to be the new norm for SE Australia, not improving
at all while we go from the current 1°C warming, through 1.5°C maybe as
early as 2030, to 2°C a bit later. (Accelerated warming at the poles
does not bear looking at, unless you've had a stiff drink first.)

The neighbour had a drill rig in before easter, to drill for stock
water. It was expected around 70 feet down. I haven't heard the results.
That's a finite resource though, only buying limited time. Slabs of
India is hundreds of feet down now, and heading for a brick wall. More
roof, more tanks, and live on what precipitates is more viable for
longer.

Erik


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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

Erik,

Do you have a blog going on your build?
I'd be very interested in your solar and battery setup for your off-grid 
home.


You must have a substantial setup to be able to run your AC off your 
battery bank.


What do you do for domestic water?  A deep well?

Dave


On 5/9/2019 5:17 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:



Down under, the last dam/waterhole on the farm has dried up after a dry
autumn on top of the driest year in the 55 years we've been there. (245
mm rain last year, and many times that in evaporation rate.) Don't know
what the kangaroos and wombats are drinking.

But cloudless blue skies are OK for a retiree, so the off-grid build
proceeds - slowly. The slab is in. Waiting on carpenter availability and
pre-made wall frames & trusses. Our tax office has a nifty scheme where
old folk can raid up to $300k from their superannuation for a home
down-size, then put it back when the old home is sold. And being architect,
owner-builder, and lender keeps everything on a cooperative footing.
(Just watch the paperwork, though.)

Still had to get building surveyor approval when I redrew the roof to
take a west-facing solar array to power the aircon in the afternoon,
after the sun has slid off the north-facing array. Kinda essential on a
43°C day, when you're off-grid. (It's too late to recharge the battery
for the night after you've hammered it hard for late afternoon aircon.)

Erik


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Re: [Emc-users] Posting order

[Dave Cole]

What makes that even easier is to enable HTML email and then not only change 
colour but also font.

The "best" answer, of course, is to embed Javascript in an HTML email
to present the data according to the preferences registered by each
recipient on an SQLite database hosted on an Amazon AWS in the cloud.

:-)


I read through 4 or 5 email lists on almost  a daily basis.  And I read 
through messages which are top posted, bottom posted, and sometimes even 
MIDDLE POSTED (and replicated !  :-) ),   yet I still get by  and 
all without going crazy, drinking excessively, etc.


So this is my take:    Thanks to everyone who has been gracious enough 
to respond to "anything" I write !!!    :-)


You can top post, bottom post, middle post, split a middle post across 
multiple parts, encode your reply in javascript I really don't care.


If you are willing to take the time to reply, I'm willing to read what 
you write.  :-)





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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Dave Cole]

I work with a shop that does a lot of waterjet, laser, 4 axis mill, and 
some lathe work and they are using

Fusion 360 for their 4 axis mill and lathe they are very happy with it.
I've used Fusion 360 to drive a LinuxCNC lathe and it worked fine.
It seems like things are moving to the cloud, but I'm not all that happy 
with that.

At some point it seems like that is going to bite a lot of users.
However, I'm not sure the cloud thing is any worse than licenses that 
are handed out by a server.

Still, Fusion 360 seems like a pretty solid package.

Dave


On 3/22/2019 5:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:

Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?

Using  ShopCam for simple 2.5D work, VisualCam for 3 or more axis work,
using Alibre Cad for 3D Drwaing and creation as well as ProgeCad for 2D
Drawings.

With this combo there is not much we can't handle but maintenance agreements
and updates do get cumbersome.

  


I am worried about moving to the cloud based system but I guess it's the
future.

  


What are this groups thoughts if any?

  


Jeff Johnson

john...@superiorroll.com

Superior Roll & Turning

734-279-1831

  



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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Dave Cole]

On 2/20/2019 8:42 AM, Ken Strauss wrote:



-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 12:07 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for

comments

My mill is equivalent to a Grizzly G3606.  From the now defunct House of
Tools.  They handle the broken parts and assemble and make sure everything
is there before I ever saw it.  No real complaints but it's not a HAAS.

Of

course the price was nowhere near that either.

I know for sure that I'm going to have to either rebuild (redesign) the X
axis nut or just install ball screws (preferred).  The PC, the CNC control
software are such a small part of the whole thing.

The BeagleBone design is published and can be used in other layouts.
Nothing stops someone from producing a more S100 if you will (but smaller
cards) system using it as a backbone processor.  Although it's video
processing is pretty pitiful.  The Pi is not public.

But again, 1000 hours  (about 6 months work).  $100 to $150 per hour.  Say
with all the design work including metalwork etc. that you can create that
magic Linux CNC based box for $150,000.   The customer base will probably
only want to pay $500 at the most for it since you can duplicate what it
does with used PCs and some hardware.  The motors, couplers, power

supplies

etc. remain constant regardless of the install.   So if you want to make
back your investment and earn a living then $150,000 R / $500 per unit

is

300 units.

And even with $500 per unit the end user still has to modify his machine
which is where all the work and money is.   If the need was there it would
already be filled.IMHO.

John

Selling 300 units at $500 each would only recover the $150K R if the
supplied hardware were free with no advertising/support required for the
sales. I suspect that needing to sell 3000 units is closer to reality.





The PC is not going away anytime soon.    I do a lot of industrial 
control work and more and more PCs are being installed in factories to 
allow access to the MES system, quality control/part tracking system 
(IBS QMS,etc) and provide employee log in/log out.   Act as cell 
controllers for machine cells.  They are everywhere.  Most of them are 
small fanless units with one or more Ethernet  ports.
The factories are using off the shelf desktop screens since they are 
dirt cheap.   Standard keyboards etc.  They break, they replace them.   
I've even seen standard desktop PCs used in steel mills out in the 
shop.  Its popular to mount the PC behind the screen.


The only reason why PC installation may slow in factories is increased 
use of robots which eliminates the employees who would interact with the 
PCs.


Remember when the parallel port was going away 10+ years ago, 
wellyou can still buy NEW PC motherboards with parallel ports.






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Re: [Emc-users] 1.5 kw vfd in 6040 problems

[Dave Cole]

On 1/28/2019 11:49 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Sunday 27 January 2019 19:27:54 Gene Heskett wrote:


On Sunday 27 January 2019 17:57:03 Jon Elson wrote:

On 01/27/2019 03:28 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

So do I ground the direction desired, or feed it 10 volts?
Which the vfd also has available although I've not
measured it.

UGH!  Only the manual for the drive will tell you that, IF
you can decipher it!  I just use real, old-fashioned
electromechanical relays and tie the terminal to where they
tell you, just like a switch.

Thats why I was rather partial to the c41, it does use relays...  Or
did, dunno what Arturo has done for the last version. Lookslike it
still does.


Jon


I've spent the early part of the morning excising the g41's from my code
to carve the back panel of at least 2 new interfaces. Surprisingly, the
execution time dropped by nearly half. So this afternoon I'll put it
back together running manually unless I can find enough chips to fix it.
Otherwise I'll be waiting on a 2nd 7i76d so I can go ahead and make the
back panels. Day or so. Theres a vfd capable port on the 7i76, easier to
use on the 6040 than with the pwm-servo on the G0704.

The guy is still dragging his feet on english docs in a pdf format for
this thing though. Docx is damned sure a looser IMNSHO. Even the latest
6.1.4 version of LibreOffice can't render it in a usable format.



I think that Googles word processor can open Docx ok...

https://www.google.com/docs/about/

Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] 1.5 kw vfd in 6040 problems

[Dave Cole]

On 1/23/2019 6:30 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 at 23:08, Gene Heskett  wrote:


Near as I can id it, its a PRT-E1500W, but this one may have a longer
name. One pcb, sitting on a thick block of alu.

The internet seems to be full of people saying that they can't get any
useful sort of manual.


Here is some info on that drive.

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/320698-cnc.html

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/338380-cnc.html

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/337362-cnc-controller-prt-e1500w-problems.html

https://madexp.com/2018/03/12/prt-e750w-prt-e1500w-vfd-settings/

And Bingo!
https://madexp.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PRT-E1500W-.pdf

You might want to read over the first several links... some folks want 
to seek revenge on whoever built that drive...


Dave






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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

[Dave Cole]

Get a copy of Clonezilla and put it on a stick drive and make it bootable.
https://clonezilla.org/
It does an effective job of backing up and restoring entire Linux disks 
without pain via a graphical interface.

It can also do baremetal restores as well.

I use a little USB plug in Hard drive along with a USB stick with 
Clonezilla to backup my Linux server. It has saved me a few times now 
after a few bad installs,  and when my server was hacked - twice in one 
year.    Highly recommended.    The small USB hard drive and stick are 
stored in a steel cabinet and are never left plugged in - in case of a 
lightning strike.


After I make any sizeable changes, I do a backup and give the backup 
file an approprate name and timestamp.    That makes fallbacks a lot 
easier.


Dave


On 1/13/2019 7:46 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

In search of something, anything that might give me a clue as to why
about a months work on custompanel.xml was killing linuxcnc, I installed
xmlindent, and xmlcopyeditor.

Thinking I might find a clue in the re-indented code, I checked the man
page for xmlindent. But it has only a -option for an output file.  So I
ran it.  Never came back, so I added the -w option. Never came back.

Opps, now I have a zero length file where it was 130+ LOC with an error
of some sort that let it load up to the final  before it puked
at column 2. I can get most of it back by dragging it in from another
machine with a similar setup but to restore what I had 20 minutes ago
will take a hell of a lot longer than I have left in me for tonight. So
then I tried xmlcopyeditor, thinking I could copy/paste into that. But
its apparently only for new creation as it does not accept a paste.
WTF??

So where can I find an xml editor that will let me copy/paste from the
Document.pdf, most of the stuff from pages 392 on to get an rpm meter,
on, fwd, rev leds, and append align.xml stuffs to that with added status
leds to show the current machine alignment state, and which will also
show any errors (cuz the Doc.pdf has quite a few errors of its own).

And preferably not capable of destroying several weeks worth of work over
the last 5 years?

I know this isn't your fault, none of you wrote this stuff, but this xml
bs needs warning labels because it can destroy anybodies sanity.

Thanks everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] G10 L2 R-90 isn't working?

[Dave Cole]

I don't feel like a Hoosier, does that still count?


Still counts.   You have Hoosier wire in you now.  Probably made by Fort Wayne 
Metals.
I think the only people who feel like Hoosiers, were born in their 
Grandfather's farm house in Indiana.  I've lived in Indiana for 22 years and 
I'm still considered a transplant/outsider by the locals.  Although they are 
getting friendlier! :-)  But people still say that I talk funny.

Dave
 



On 1/10/2019 10:04 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Thursday 10 January 2019 19:21:01 Dave Cole wrote:


  A pacemaker.

That's one way to get some new hardware!

Glad you are back at it.

Not really, yet. The antibiotic they've put me on reads like a
pharmacists worst nightmare, levofloxacin. 7 pills, 80 bucks, and its
truly the last antibiotic in the drug industries arsenal. They spend
both sides of 5 sheets of paper, describing the probably lethal side
effects. No driving for at least 2 weeks after I've taken the last pill.
And according to the propaganda, it could hit 2 years after taking the
last pill!

Pacemakers run in my family.
They are amazingly durable.
Trivia ...Most of the wire used to tie the heart into the pacemakers
is made in Fort Wayne, IN. That makes you part Hoosier!  :-)


I don't feel like a Hoosier, does that still count?

Dave

Thanks Dave,


over twenty years.)

Thank you for careing.  It seems like it takes a special person to
volunteer for that.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] G10 L2 R-90 isn't working?

[Dave Cole]

 A pacemaker.


That's one way to get some new hardware!

Glad you are back at it.

Pacemakers run in my family.
They are amazingly durable.
Trivia ...Most of the wire used to tie the heart into the pacemakers is made in 
Fort Wayne, IN.
That makes you part Hoosier!  :-)

Dave



On 1/10/2019 12:53 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Sunday 06 January 2019 12:03:10 Kenneth Lerman wrote:

Back on the list Kenneth, thank you.


Gene,

You can tell me that it's none of my business, but having your heart
rate decrease by a factor of two can be a sign of serious cardiac
problems. (I've been a volunteer EMT in Newtown, CT for over twenty
years.)

This is gradual, spread over the last 5 years or so.


Please, get thee to a Dr. ASAP. Don't neglect it. Particularly if you
are more out of breath than usual.

Thats the problem, I am not noticeably out of breath.


I suggest that you don't drive yourself. DIAL 911.

I know, you probably can't leave Dee alone. But if you neglect your
own health, you may just leave her permanently.

A definite possibility. One of those little finger grabbers says 97%, and
39 right now. 97 is just a hair low, but pr has settled back to 38 in
the couple minutes I've been sitting here.  All the doc could say just
10 days ago was that there was a slight murmur of a valve but nothing to
worry about. He had heard it before, a year or so back.
  

(It will be a sad day for me when "ghesk...@shentel.net" goes silent.)

I'm realistic enough to know it will happen, sometime. Dee was still
sleeping the last time I looked while making morning coffee. And that
first cup has me at 37. And I didn't send this, got up hung a note that
said I was headed for the ER on her potty chair. Then drove myself to
the ER...  That was Sunday.

Now its Thursday and, I'm back from the body shop, typeing a little
slower, and sorer and with a foreign object in my chest. A pacemaker. So
you haven't gotten rid of me yet. :) Mentally I think I'm OK, but I'm
under orders to not drive for about a week because it slows reflexes
among other things. I got a sore throat while in the OR but they didn't
intubate me so they cultured a tonsil swab and gave me the first dose of
levoflaxen yesterday, and a script for 7 more, pills. That stuff
dissolves the tendons, so no heavy lifting for the next 15 days, till it
wears off. No warfarin till at least a week, and stop the lisonopril.

Like I told the doc when he walked in as I was trying to clean lunch out
of my teeth with an Arkansas toothpick, can you get another 25,000 miles
out of me?  Sure he says, the battery is good for 10 years.

Anyway, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

I hope everyone is alive and well while I was gone.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] Done with that panel code, with one exception

[Dave Cole]

Its hard to beat this price for 3D Cad/Cam which is free for hobbyist 
and startups making less than 100K per year.

https://www.autodesk.com/campaigns/fusion-360-for-hobbyists

It requires Window, but its free!

I know of a shop that is using Inventor now and they are moving a lot of 
their work to Fusion 360.
The cost is a fraction of the Inventor price per seat.  Something like 
$800 per year for a commercial business.


I used it a couple of years ago to do some lathe parts and it was really 
easy.   The parts were designed, and G code generated in a day, and this 
was the first time we ever used it.   Mill code is more difficult than 
lathe code typically, but still, one day.  There was a lathe post that 
worked perfectly with LinuxCNC.


I understand that they have improved it a lot in the last two years as well.

Dave

On 12/20/2018 12:46 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 2:19 AM Les Newell 
wrote:


Can your cad/cam program do that in 300 LOC? 100k LOC maybe.

  Who knows.  No one EVER reads the g-code or counts the lines.  I have some
files with a few million lines.

But here is another question:  Can you hand code a DB9 cut out in less than
6 minutes?   THAT is what matters.

And can you hand code a compound curve, like a small part for a human-like
prosthec hand?







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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Dave Cole]

Fuzzy control is not suitable for everything but it does some things 
very well.


I became interested in it when I started experimenting in autopilots for 
sailboats.  (Power boats tend to be much easier)


There is some really horrible autopilot software out there.  Its amazing 
how bad some of it is.


There are several articles out there on Boat, Ship and airplane 
Autopilots being implemented with fuzzy logic.


Dave



On 10/19/2018 11:20 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 19 October 2018 22:36:43 Dave Cole wrote:


Here is one I remember.

http://www.rentanadviser.com/en/pid-fuzzy-logic/pid-fuzzy-logic.aspx

There is also a lot of developed open source Fuzzy logic libraries.

Do a search for "Fuzzy Logic Open Source".

Like everything else, some of it is good, some of it is garbage.

Faster than a PID?   I don't know if it can be faster, but done right,
I think it can be more effective than a PID.  Especially if you really
need something more sophisticated than a simple PID loop.


I haven't so far.


Normally for a PID, you will have a PV(Process variable)  and a
Setpoint for the PV and math is run that creates an Output that
affects the PV, hence the "loop".

Looking at the math in the first goggle hit, lots of it, although its all
integer, seems like it would have to be slower.

A PID, since I put the new encoder on the G0704, is good enough that my
only clue its overloaded, is the motor's chirp from Jons pwm-servo amp
as it goes into current limiting at about 17 amps. Up to that point, no
detectable slowdown. I figure I'm pulling around 2hp at that point, its
a 1hp 90 volt motor with a nameplate amps in the middle 9's, and its
being hammered with 126 volts and nearly double the amps.  And working
like it was made for it. Knocking on wood, even the plastic gears in the
2 speed head are holding up well. I've even put in some extra hal
trickery for a seemless gear change while its turning, as the tally
switches also are tied into the drive so that if both are open, the
motor revs drop to about 30 while the shifter is moving, and returns to
the set speed as the knob hits the last 2 degrees of the stop closeing
one of the switches. With that encoder and the PID setup, the speed
changes are done in a few milliseconds, way faster than I can muscle the
knob. That also is tied to the tach, so the tach is accurate in either
gear.

But I'm always curious about what may be a better way,

Thanks Dave.




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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Dave Cole]

Here is one I remember.

http://www.rentanadviser.com/en/pid-fuzzy-logic/pid-fuzzy-logic.aspx

There is also a lot of developed open source Fuzzy logic libraries.

Do a search for "Fuzzy Logic Open Source".

Like everything else, some of it is good, some of it is garbage.

Faster than a PID?   I don't know if it can be faster, but done right, I 
think it can be more effective than a PID.  Especially if you really 
need something more sophisticated than a simple PID loop.


Normally for a PID, you will have a PV(Process variable)  and a Setpoint 
for the PV and math is run that creates an Output that affects the PV, 
hence the "loop".


A fuzzy logic controller can do the same thing, using two inputs and one 
output, or it can be configured with
more than two inputs.   So you could have a PV and a Setpoint, then also 
an ambient temperature input, a RPM input, a coolant temp input, current 
input, etc, etc. and they could all be used to create an output.


My advice when reading up on Fuzzy logic;   If it is not understandable, 
keep looking for an understandable explanation.


Dave




On 10/19/2018 7:23 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 19 October 2018 19:05:31 Dave Cole wrote:


I did the university thing on control theory, but it was a while ago..
more than 30 years..so I'll leave it at that!  :-)

If you are researching loop control theory, you should also look at
Fuzzy logic controllers.

There are some simulator software out there that allow you to compare
Fuzzy logic techniques to traditional PID controls.
Some of them are live webpages.

Interesting, URL's please?


Its very interesting.   To me, its amazing how effective fuzzy logic
can be.   The big problem that I found is that you have to read quite
a bit before it makes sense.

Can it be faster than a PID?


There are a lot of poor explanations of how it works.  Some of the
explanations are so bad that they simply create confusion.

That can also be said of some of the PID descriptions :(


Dave

On 10/19/2018 2:12 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a
few books and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if
you have readily available I could always take a look.

I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using
bode, nyquist diagrams.

I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful
also for state feedback but then state space model is available I
prefer method to calculate gains using the model. I could do state
space feedback including integral action but get the feeling a
chapter or so is missing, maybe I have to write it myself.

Someone who really understands it needs to..  Whats out there tends to
talk more theory than hardware. For me at least, that leaves a huge gap
between the theory and the hardwares reaction to best guesses about the
theory because we've no ready made method to measure the moving mass so
what I make work, may be a long ways from optimum. I suspect caution
results in less acceleration than its capable of.



Regards, Nicklas Karlsson


I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and
other things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs
about control theory that may help.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<

nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:

I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who
have a taken any courses of in control theory on University?

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300

Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:

Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything
from this topic.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh
()

escribió:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow 

wrote:

I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?

It does seem odd.

The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
messages, but it might be wrong:

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=20181
0


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils
and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] No mail received?

[Dave Cole]

I did the university thing on control theory, but it was a while ago.. 
more than 30 years..so I'll leave it at that!  :-)


If you are researching loop control theory, you should also look at 
Fuzzy logic controllers.


There are some simulator software out there that allow you to compare 
Fuzzy logic techniques to traditional PID controls.

Some of them are live webpages.
Its very interesting.   To me, its amazing how effective fuzzy logic can 
be.   The big problem that I found is that you have to read quite a bit 
before it makes sense.
There are a lot of poor explanations of how it works.  Some of the 
explanations are so bad that they simply create confusion.


Dave

On 10/19/2018 2:12 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

Probably not, I have done quite a lot of search on Internet, have a few books 
and have taken two courses specifically in the area but if you have readily 
available I could always take a look.

I find a lot of documents about PID controllers and theory using bode, nyquist 
diagrams.

I found state space feedback and bode, nyquist diagram are useful also for 
state feedback but then state space model is available I prefer method to 
calculate gains using the model. I could do state space feedback including 
integral action but get the feeling a chapter or so is missing, maybe I have to 
write it myself.


Regards, Nicklas Karlsson




I didn't get to that point at the university. Between the work and other
things I'm taking it at a slow pace. But I have some PDFs about control
theory that may help.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 14:41, Nicklas Karlsson (<
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>) escribió:


I am still here, working on control theory right now. Anybody who have a
taken any courses of in control theory on University?

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:36:59 -0300
Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:


Same here, the list is very quiet but I'm receiving everything from this
topic.

El vie., 19 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, andy pugh ()
escribió:


On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 15:32, Peter Blodow  wrote:


I haven't got any mail from this list since Oct.10th. How come?

It does seem odd.

The mail server thingy doesn't think that there have been any
messages, but it might be wrong:

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/?viewmonth=201810


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Vacuum table Re: Yet another topic about gantry homing

[Dave Cole]

Instead of making bearings I would look at what Igus and others have to 
sell.

They are not that expensive and you have plenty of other things to do.
Regenerative Vacuum blowers work well for vacuum hold down work.    They 
are still power hogs and quite noisy without mufflers on the outputs.
They are sometimes sold on Ebay for not much since few people know what 
they are.


Dave



On 10/7/2018 6:31 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

Hello Gregg,

Something like this is what you have in mind?

http://www.phoenixcnccreations.com/our_shop_gallery/Vacuum%20System/2%20vac%206%20zone%20plenum_ball%20valves4.jpg

It's a nice feature, and seems cheap and not hard to implement. That's
probably the way I'll do it.

El sáb., 6 oct. 2018 a las 18:07, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users (<
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>) escribió:


You could make the vacuum table with several zones, connected with a PVC
pipe manifold and ball valves to close off sections you're not using. That
would be easier than keeping stuff around to lay over unused sections of
the table.

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Re: [Emc-users] Yet another topic about gantry homing

[Dave Cole]

By the time you buy the timing belts, pulleys, shafts, machine the 
brackets, to do a double belt reduction to get to 10:1, you are money 
ahead to just buy a servo grade 10:1 gearbox.    If you mount a pinion 
directly to the gearbox shaft and drive the rack with this pinion, you 
will have a very rigid drive system.


There are things like this out there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/planetary-reducer-gearbox-3-1-to-10-1-for-1kw-2kw-130-AC-servo-motor-input-22mm/263810208961?hash=item3d6c5054c1:g:dFAAAOSwBd1bRsP1

If you buying Chinese servo motors and drives, ask them about a 10:1 
gearbox.


Dave

On 10/4/2018 11:13 AM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

Hello Dave,

Well, to avoid the backlash is that or may be using timing belts and
pulleys to drive the shaft too. The gearbox is a good idea but I think that
can raise the cost too much. Anyway I'll give it a look because I don't
want to discard any option.

In any case I'm still not sure about wheter use two motors or one motor
with a shaft. The latter option makes me feel more secure because it can't
go out of squaress easily, unless you have loose belt or something breaks.

  By the way I just re send another message that was rejected by the list
because of the size of the pictures, I don't know if now you can see it.



El jue., 4 oct. 2018 a las 12:04, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:


Hello Les,

No, I plan to support 50 mm bars every 600 mm more or less. I'm attaching
some pictures of the design I'm working on. (The adjustable stands for
levelling are not in the assembly because I'm saving resources on this
laptop)

I like the idea of using the rectangular ways but unfortunately they are
quite expensive for this project and also there's the aligning problem.
With the setup I'm trying to do I can adjust the parallelism on every
corner of the machine and also individually adjust every suport to level
the guides perfectly. I'm sending pictures of everything to clarify what
I'm intending to do. Please note this is under development and some things
are going to change a little bit.

The idea of welding the frame is out of discussion because I plan to move
and set up this thing in place. Also, I don't have the means to guarantee a
clean and squared welding for the frame. Instead I decided to do what you
can see in the pictures, having an enormous amount of bolts to keep the
parts rigid and firm.

No problem about using tubing to lower the inertia. I also thought about
reducing the 3000 max RPM with the worm and gear to 100 RPM on the shaft
and then increase the size of the pinions to have the linear speed I want.
This way the long shaft doesn't have to withstand the high RPMs.

(Second attempt to attach the pictures)

El jue., 4 oct. 2018 a las 12:00, Dave Cole ()
escribió:


I'd avoid a worm gear drive.   They are prone to wear and backlash.
I'd look for a good deal on a servo grade planetary 10:1 gearbox that
fits your Chinese motor.
Probably the easiest and most rigid drive solution is to use two motors
each with a planetary gear box and direct drive a pinion on a rack.
If you want to mill aluminum and need rigidity, that's the way I would go.
You might want to weld the frame in sections and then bolt it together.
If you don't have a platen to weld it on, you might want to contract out
part of the frame welding.

Dave

On 10/4/2018 10:41 AM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

By the way, on the pictures there are missing details I didn't draw yet,
like setscrews for parallel regulation and things like that. Also, I

have

yet to modify the design for the one motor and shaft approach and see

wich

is better.

El jue., 4 oct. 2018 a las 11:37, Leonardo Marsaglia (<

ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)

escribió:


Hello Les,

No, I plan to support 50 mm bars every 600 mm more or less. I'm

attaching

some pictures of the design I'm working on. (The adjustable stands for
levelling are not in the assembly because I'm saving resources on this
laptop)

I like the idea of using the rectangular ways but unfortunately they

are

quite expensive for this project and also there's the aligning problem.
With the setup I'm trying to do I can adjust the parallelism on every
corner of the machine and also individually adjust every suport to

level

the guides perfectly. I'm sending pictures of everything to clarify

what

I'm intending to do. Please note this is under development and some

things

are going to change a little bit.

The idea of welding the frame is out of discussion because I plan to

move

and set up this thing in place. Also, I don't have the means to

guarantee a

clean and squared welding for the frame. Instead I decided to do what

you

can see in the pictures, having an enormous amount of bolts to keep the
parts rigid and firm.

No problem about using tubing to lower the inertia. I also thought

about

reducing the 3000 max RPM with the worm and gear to 100 RPM on the

shaft

and then increase the size of the pinions to have the linear speed I

want.

This way th

Re: [Emc-users] Yet another topic about gantry homing

[Dave Cole]

Chris,

Do you have a link for these "new style ball screws" ??

Thanks,  Dave

On 10/4/2018 3:33 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

Have you seen the new style ball screws?   They are now cheaper then belts
and have pretty "over kill" specs.

The problem with a 30mm wide belt drive is the need to resist  the belt
tension and a way to adjust it.   Not only the tension between the two
pulleys but there is side load on the motor shaft unless you use a flexible
coupler and ball bearings on both sides of the drive pulley.  The lead
screw is mechanically simpler because the motor can be directly coupled to
the screw and for $70 you get all the end blocks and mounting hardware.
These have made router design nearly a "screw driver only" project.  No
design to even much thinking needed.   I bought one for the vertical axis
of a CNC milling machine and I can set there is zero backlash and not
adjust needed or the life of the machine.  Cost me about $35.

A screw give the drive motor a larger mechanical deduction and you can
likely skip the need for a reduction stage.  A screw might advance the axis
4mm per revolution but a belt drive moves maybe 30 to 36mm per rev.
  You get more force the resolution with a 4mm pitch ball screw.

You can make a one meter square X,Y router base or laser cutter today using
two pair of supported rails and two screws for under $250 plus the motors
and your z-axis.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:41 AM Roland Jollivet 
wrote:


The idea of using belts, and gearboxes, and rack and pinions, sounds like a
bad recipe.

While I did suggest a bar across the gantry, the problem is that you're
carrying all those gears, and the motor.
I drew a quick concept sketch of how I would do it. Buy cut-to-length belt,
probably HTD M5  x  30mm wide for your application.

I think this would be quite adequate for a wood router. At the far end of
the table, connect the two idler pulleys with a shaft too. Obviously all
the pulleys and motors will be below the table height.

And;
- motor is no longer on the gantry
- no skew can happen
- easy to get your drive ratio
- single motor

http://imgbox.com/ccZJF5nH



On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 17:41, Leonardo Marsaglia 
wrote:


Hello Les,

No, I plan to support 50 mm bars every 600 mm more or less. I'm attaching
some pictures of the design I'm working on. (The adjustable stands for
levelling are not in the assembly because I'm saving resources on this
laptop)

I like the idea of using the rectangular ways but unfortunately they are
quite expensive for this project and also there's the aligning problem.
With the setup I'm trying to do I can adjust the parallelism on every
corner of the machine and also individually adjust every suport to level
the guides perfectly. I'm sending pictures of everything to clarify what
I'm intending to do. Please note this is under development and some

things

are going to change a little bit.

The idea of welding the frame is out of discussion because I plan to move
and set up this thing in place. Also, I don't have the means to

guarantee a

clean and squared welding for the frame. Instead I decided to do what you
can see in the pictures, having an enormous amount of bolts to keep the
parts rigid and firm.

No problem about using tubing to lower the inertia. I also thought about
reducing the 3000 max RPM with the worm and gear to 100 RPM on the shaft
and then increase the size of the pinions to have the linear speed I

want.

This way the long shaft doesn't have to withstand the high RPMs.

I uploaded the pictures because the list doesn't allow me to attach them.
Here's the link:

https://imgur.com/a/7kLUWsq


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Re: [Emc-users] Yet another topic about gantry homing

[Dave Cole]

I'd avoid a worm gear drive.   They are prone to wear and backlash.
I'd look for a good deal on a servo grade planetary 10:1 gearbox that 
fits your Chinese motor.
Probably the easiest and most rigid drive solution is to use two motors 
each with a planetary gear box and direct drive a pinion on a rack.

If you want to mill aluminum and need rigidity, that's the way I would go.
You might want to weld the frame in sections and then bolt it together.
If you don't have a platen to weld it on, you might want to contract out 
part of the frame welding.


Dave

On 10/4/2018 10:41 AM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

By the way, on the pictures there are missing details I didn't draw yet,
like setscrews for parallel regulation and things like that. Also, I have
yet to modify the design for the one motor and shaft approach and see wich
is better.

El jue., 4 oct. 2018 a las 11:37, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:


Hello Les,

No, I plan to support 50 mm bars every 600 mm more or less. I'm attaching
some pictures of the design I'm working on. (The adjustable stands for
levelling are not in the assembly because I'm saving resources on this
laptop)

I like the idea of using the rectangular ways but unfortunately they are
quite expensive for this project and also there's the aligning problem.
With the setup I'm trying to do I can adjust the parallelism on every
corner of the machine and also individually adjust every suport to level
the guides perfectly. I'm sending pictures of everything to clarify what
I'm intending to do. Please note this is under development and some things
are going to change a little bit.

The idea of welding the frame is out of discussion because I plan to move
and set up this thing in place. Also, I don't have the means to guarantee a
clean and squared welding for the frame. Instead I decided to do what you
can see in the pictures, having an enormous amount of bolts to keep the
parts rigid and firm.

No problem about using tubing to lower the inertia. I also thought about
reducing the 3000 max RPM with the worm and gear to 100 RPM on the shaft
and then increase the size of the pinions to have the linear speed I want.
This way the long shaft doesn't have to withstand the high RPMs.

Let me know if you can see the pictures.



El jue., 4 oct. 2018 a las 10:52, Les Newell ()
escribió:


Using two motors is mechanically simpler and has lower rotational
inertia but I am not a fan of this setup. If you use a tube rather than
a solid shaft, you won't add a lot of inertia. I'm thinking of building
another plasma cutter and it will probably use a shaft rather than 2
motors.


But the thing is, I'm planning to use round guides
with bronze adjustable bearings.

Do you mean guides that are only supported at the ends? This is a very
bad idea. They'll flex and bounce all over the place. You are also
likely to get a lot of wear unless you pressure feed lubricant. If you
do that oil will go everywhere. My router uses box ways on the Y and Z
axes with oil feed. It gets pretty messy at times.

Most modern commercial routers and many machining centres use
rectangular linear ways, such as this
<
https://www.qualitybearingsonline.com/lwl25r240bhs2-iko-maintenance-free-linear-guide-rail/>.

They are very rigid and lasts a long time with very little wear. The
only disadvantage is that you need to be careful to make sure everything
is perfectly aligned. These have very little give in them. Another
option is supported round rail such as this
<
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TEN-HIGH-Supported-SBR40UU-BlockBearing-Bearing/dp/B01N10JF5N>.

For the sort of size machine you are talking about you'll need at least
40mm round rail. Round rails wear faster than rectangular but are a lot
less fussy about alignment.


So, to sum up, with these kind of bearings I expect more resistance on

the

joints, and also the router is 2 meters x 3,8 meters long so to have

enough

rigidity I'm planning to use steel and cast iron, so that's why I'm
oversizing the motors.

To give you an idea about motor sizing the motors on my router (1 per
axis) are about 1.8kw and it's scary.  My tool changer is mounted on a
bracket made from 50mmx50mm box section. I messed up the tool change
sequencing a while back and it pushed the tool changer out of the way
without breaking a sweat. It tool a lot of effort with big levers to
twist it straight again. Here is a link to a similar machine to mine but
without a tool changer
<
https://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/cjm-asset/catalogue-id-cjm10389/lot-47df49af-bf1a-4676-ab88-a75a00f5f92b>.

Lots of heavy steel and cast iron. Mine originally had 4 drill heads and
2 spindles. If it was easy to dial back the power I would. If something
goes wrong the machine will keep pushing until something breaks.

I do maintenance work on a router with 750W motors. A while back the
spindle stalled while it was cutting. It bent the 1/2" cutter nearly 90
degrees and carried on.

Les

On 04/10/2018 13:47, Leonardo 

Re: [Emc-users] Yet another topic about gantry homing

[Dave Cole]

You need to keep the drive system as simple as possible and keep 
backlash in mind.
Also, don't forget about the spring constant of any shaft you run across 
the gantry.  If you do that, you might want to
run a tube drive shaft rather than a solid shaft for more torsional 
rigidity.

There is nothing wrong with running two motors.
Excessive backlash will cause big problems.

Dave

On 10/4/2018 8:47 AM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

First of all, thank you guys for your advices as always!

I'm gonna try an asnwer this on one message because sadly gmail doesn't
have the quote selected text feature anymore.

About the oversized motors. Yes, I also think that for a normal router 1 kw
per side is too much. But the thing is, I'm planning to use round guides
with bronze adjustable bearings. I decided this because I want more
rigidity for an eventual need of machining aluminum, and also because I
think this kind of guides with whipers are much more reliable than the
recirculating ball ones. Also, I don't think I can have the adjustable
feature with the slotted ball bearings. I'm attaching a picture of the
bearing I plan to make, there are no lube channels on the model but they
will be on the final part.

So, to sum up, with these kind of bearings I expect more resistance on the
joints, and also the router is 2 meters x 3,8 meters long so to have enough
rigidity I'm planning to use steel and cast iron, so that's why I'm
oversizing the motors. Besides, there's no much difference between a 400W
and a 1Kw  chinese servo motor and drive on ebay.

About how to drive and home the gantry. From what we've been talking and
thinking it through a little more, I'm thinking that the best solution is
the one Gregg suggested. To have a transversal shaft on the gantry driven
by the servo motor by a worm and gear reduction with the timing pulleys on
each end of the shaft driving the pinions. This way I can adjust and square
the two columns and it should stay squared at any time. This is really
important because this is going to be used by a regular operator, so this
has to be as reliable and fail proof as possible.

About the last question. Is there any disadvantage other than may be a
little more mechanical complexity with the one motor and shaft approach?
Because I've seen lots of routers driven with two motors that I almost
think it's mandatory for some reason.

Thanks again!

Leonardo








El jue., 4 oct. 2018 a las 0:03, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users (<
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>) escribió:


  The easiest method is mechanically connect the two sides with a shaft
along the gantry and use one motor. Then it *cannot rack* or have any of
the other issues that can happen with driving both sides of a constrained
axis with two motors.
If you need more Z height, you can elevate the racks on the sides. Or run
chains or belts from the cross shaft ends down to stub shafts with the
pinion gears.

 On Wednesday, October 3, 2018, 4:03:48 AM MDT, Leonardo Marsaglia <
ldmarsag...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Hello to all!


About how to drive both Y joints as one axis: I've read that there's a way
of simply adding two Y joints for the Y axis in the 2.8 master branch but I
don't know if there's documentation available already.
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: motor usage

[Dave Cole]

I'd call Baldor and Allen Bradley, in that order.

Get their tech support phone numbers.   Allen Bradley may ask you for a 
support contract number, just tell them you want to buy a drive for the 
motor you have

and see what they say.
Baldor should answer the phone.   Although they may try and direct you 
to a Baldor distributor.  I believe Baldor was selling generic servo 
drives at one point to replace old obsolete drives.  So they should be 
willing to talk to you about that and give you some idea of possible 
performance.  Electrocraft was a big name in servos for a long time so 
Baldor may want to help you with a replacement drive.

Baldor's prices have been fairly reasonable.

Dave

On 10/3/2018 11:45 AM, John Figie wrote:

Baldor will not reply. Rockwell bought Reliance in the 90s. The
electrocraft products became Rockwell Automation Products (Allen Bradley)
Later Rockwell sold Reliance to Baldor but kept the Electrocraft stuff.

John Figie

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018, 10:06 AM Roland Jollivet 
wrote:


Thanks for the .pdf link.
I did send the details to Baldor (was ElectroCraft) and will see if they
bother to reply.

Yes, the low speed is confusing because it obviously has very low
inductance windings to get the instantaneous torque.
Ahh, maybe the rating is specific to the application since it's probably a
custom order. It had an 80mm spur gear that drove a 2m diameter ring that
sits around the patient. So one wouldn't want that spinning at a 1000RPM or
so.

I'll explore the drive. If I can get a direct/ and belt set-up with 1:1 and
1:3 I'll be quite happy.



On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 at 16:36, andy pugh  wrote:


On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 at 15:05, Dave Cole  wrote:

I would find the original drive specs for that motor.  I'm sure they

had

a matching drive for it.

I think it is a close relative of these:



https://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/td/1398-td001_-en-p.pdf

The nameplate decoder at the back fits, to an extent.

Possibly S-6300 is a special?

I would be tempted to connect it to a drive and see what happens.
Others in the family with similar peak torque seem happy at 3000 rpm.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Yet another topic about gantry homing

[Dave Cole]

You will probably need two reduction stages to get a 10:1 belt drive 
reduction.
There are some fairly cheap servo motor gear boxes out there now being 
made in China.

That may be the cheaper/easier way to go.

FWIW, 1 KW servo motors x 2 is probably an overkill unless you want to 
go really fast or if your gantry is

heavy steel.

Dave

On 10/3/2018 9:41 AM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

Sorry for the lack of detail, I wrote the message too fast this morning
when I just got up.

I'm planning to use 1 kw servos on each side with a max RPM of 3000. The
idea is to gear down from the motor to the pinion 10 to 1 using the timing
belts. The pinion I'm planning to use is a MOD 2 with 20 teeth. That would
give a theoretical linear max speed of 37 meters/minute.

I was thinking about making a custom component for offsetting the index
pulse on the encoders but I don't know if this approach will be reliable
enough.

El mié., 3 oct. 2018 a las 10:17, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:


I haven't really looked at the documentation for Master lately, but the
means for setting up a multiple joint axis (like a gantry) was documented
reasonably well last time I checked.

My personal experience with rack and pinion driven wood routers is that
for stepper-motor drive you are going to want between 2.5-5
revolutions/inch of travel.  With a leaning towards the lower end of that
scale.  With a 2.5 rev/inch ratio and half stepping the machine should be
capable of 600ipm rapids and about 0.001" resolution.  If you are going to
run servo motors I would suggest a ratio probably double what you'd want
for a step-motor, but that will depend on the max rpm of your servo and
what you want your max feeds to be.

The 10:1 ratio you mention doesn't tell us much without the pinion size,
is that motor revs to pinion revs, or motor revs per unit length?

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 6:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: [Emc-users] Yet another topic about gantry homing

Hello to all!

I'm building a CNC router for wood machining for a friend of mine and the
best way I found to drive the Y joint for this particular design, given the
size of the machine, is the following:

One rack and pinion on each side of the longitudinal axis of the machine
and each pinion conected to a servo motor using two steps of reduction with
synchronous belts to achieve a 10 to 1 ratio.

I've found several topics on the forum talking about the homing of an axis
arranged like this. I guess to have screw regulated home switches for each
Y joint is almost a must (in case you don't use linear scales). But I was
wondering if it's possible to use ,in conjunction with that, the index
pulse of an encoder coupled to directly to the pinion.

My idea is to offset the index pulse on each encoder via HAL to make both
sides of the Y joint trip the index pulse together and stay squared during
homing. Is this a good practice?

About how to drive both Y joints as one axis: I've read that there's a way
of simply adding two Y joints for the Y axis in the 2.8 master branch but I
don't know if there's documentation available already.

But I was thinking about slaving one of the motors (using them as pulse
and direction at the beginning to make things easier) and use the encoder
on the pinion only for following error and homing. I don't like the open
loop approach a lot, but I don't know if it's that easy to use them as
servos in position mode without having too much trouble.

Any thoughts?

Thank you as always!

Leonardo

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: motor usage

[Dave Cole]

I would find the original drive specs for that motor.  I'm sure they had 
a matching drive for it.


The specs for that drive/motor combo should specify the max speed of the 
motor with that particular drive along with the torque vs speed curve.


It may be 2x the rated speed but at reduced torque.   That's not unusual 
for servo motors.


Dave

On 10/3/2018 7:57 AM, Roland Jollivet wrote:

On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 at 11:32, andy pugh  wrote:


On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 at 06:49, Roland Jollivet 
wrote:


If only the speed was a lot higher, it would be an awesome spindle motor
for rigid tapping.

How much did you pay for it?
What do you imagine would happen if you ran it faster?

You could always gear it up. Maybe have a 1:1 ratio for tapping and a
speed-up for normal milling.
Either one toothed belt and two sets of (carefully chosen) pulleys or
two permanently-engaged toothed belts with a peg to engage the
high-speed ratio and an over-running clutch on the low-speed one:
This one can do 85Nm:

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p152524/CSK25PP-25mm-Sprag-Clutch-One-Way-Bearing-with-Internal-&-External-Keyways-25x52x15mm/product_info.html
--
atp



I probably paid about $10 for it, as scrap metal, from a CAT scan machine.
I remember the scrap yard guys rolling their eyes as I carried it out of
there. Junk collector

I don't know if it could run faster with the correct drive. Maybe back EMF
would be a problem? I would like 7000 RPM, but I don't think a 10:1 setup
is practical.
And surely it's rated 700RPM for a reason. I doubt the magnets are going to
fly apart, so what would that reason be?

The irony is that I've just got myself a scrapped CNC mill with a missing
spindle drive motor, that's why my attention was back on that motor.
This is a LinuxCNC candidate so I will document/blog the re-build.

The over-drive arrangement would work, but maybe better suited to my lathe.
Direct drive for threading, then step-up to ~ 2000RPM max for turning.









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Re: [Emc-users] update version on working machine

[Dave Cole]

THIS is the safest

 way to upgrade a running system:  Make multiple partitions.

No, that's definitely not the safest way.  Jon's right.  Swap hard drives.   
You can't screw up something that's not plugged in!

If you don't want to do that, then at least image the drive to another device, 
like a USB drive, then unplug the drive and put it in a safe place.

Been there, done that.

Dave



On 8/23/2018 10:00 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

Swap out the HD?   No. Yo can install quite a few copies of Linux+EMC on
one drive then chose which to boot from the boot menu.  THIS is the safest
  way to upgrade a running system:  Make multiple partitions.

Then it is easy to copy from the old system, you boot the new one and mount
the old system read-only and copy from it.

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:18 PM Jon Elson  wrote:


On 08/23/2018 08:41 AM, Ed wrote:

I have a lathe that is running 2.5.4 and runs well.

I get offers from Update Manager to do an update. Can this
be any danger to operation or to any of the ini or hal
files or operation?

My paranoid gene tells me to ask.


Your paranoia is GOOD!  I would not update the system.  If
you want to check out the newer version,
at the VERY LEAST, just swap out the hard drive, and install
a completely new system from the ISO.
If the computer is pretty old, it might be time to update
the hardware as well.
You can copy over your config file set and machining
programs from backups, or using whatever removable media you
have available.  Most likely, you will have to make some
small adjustments to your configs files to make them work on
the latest LinuxCNC version.  The release notes usually
describe what needs to be done accurately.

This is the safest way to do things.

Jon




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Re: [Emc-users] Faro Arm

[Dave Cole]

Looks interesting.

If I didn't already have a backlog of projects!

That should be plenty precise for many things.

What's the alternative?   Scales, tape measures, laser levels?

Any idea how much the official Faro PC card and software costs? Or if it 
is even available any longer?


Dave

On 8/17/2018 8:18 PM, Andy Pugh wrote:



On 17 Aug 2018, at 15:00, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:

I purchased a Faro Arm Gold many years ago for a particular project. The
claimed resolution was either +- .004 or .006. Horrible.

I think that depends on the application. It isn’t a CMM. I have used them to 
return the locations of accelerometers on van body shells. +/- 1mm is ok there. 
I wanted this one to locate mounting holes and such on old vehicles. (Need to 
make a radiator that actually fits).  Again 1/16” is fine for that.


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