Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

The batteries catching fire is already a lower probability fault and it
will improve. Far lower than fires with gasoline.

I think these two safety issues, battery fires and H tanks blowing up are
non-problems that have effective tech fixes.Transporting energy to
individual cars is not much to worry about with electric power convenient
means exist. Production and "transport" can be in your own yard. But
transporting H is not even begun.  Lossy electrolysis could be done at home
from PV, but that is economically a non-starter with pressurized storage.
If a dense AND low pressure means is developed that is nice. But it sounds
like a pipe dream. Hydrogen on a film? Intuition tells me that's not going
to be nearly dense enough. Aren't batteries up near 300Wh per kg now (I
just saw a new product claim of 350)? Musk has said aircraft can work at
400Wh/kg, economically.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 10:23 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> MUCH better chance of a battery catching fire than a hydrogen tank
> exploding. In fact, the latter is unlikely to happen. The former, it
> happens all the time.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 15, 2021, at 1:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > But then there is still the 30% loss in inefficiency in all the heat
> loss in
> > compressing the hydrogen into tanks. (and hoping it wont explode).
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> From the WIKI:
> >> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current
> best
> >> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which
> have
> >> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
> >> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in
> another
> >> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
> >>
> >> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a
> lot of
> >> inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got
> that
> >> idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2
> and
> >> H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
> >>>
> >>> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than
> bar?
> >>> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is -
> frankly, I
> >>> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
> >>> confusing a point.
> >>>
> >>> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking
> about.
> >>> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that
> they
> >>> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get
> managed
> >>> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any
> other
> >>> energy storage mechanism.
> >>>
> >>> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just
> not
> >>> true.
> >>>
> >>> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
> >>> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
> >>>
>
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-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn’t green after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I really don’t know anything about the ability of the tanks to age and develop 
cracks over time.

Can you expand on that?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Nathan,
> 
> I was thinking of 700 bar tanks with 3 per car and several hundred
> million cars (not just Camrys) being made with these tanks.  As with
> you, I would not want to be in or near such a car when it let go.  The
> longer they are in a car, they will likely age and develop cracks.
> 
> There was a reference to a company called Plastic Kinetics that has
> developed a way of storing hydrogen on thin film
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEm4mEizns
> 
> If this is true and viable, it "solves" one of the major road blocks
> to adoption; the storage of hydrogen at reasonable pressures.
> 
> The other major problems have been the use of platinum in creating PEM
> fuel cells and the production of hydrogen.  There has been a lot of
> hype on the later.
> 
> Until I can go into a dealer, buy a HFCEV, and drive to some remote
> part of the country and not worry about a hydrogen supply, I'm
> sticking with a BEV.
> 
> At least with a Tesla, there were a number of occasions where the
> Tesla where you can be in the middle of nowhere and recharge.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 6:18 PM nathan christiansn via EV
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I?m not sure what you are talking about.
>> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
>> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
>> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
>> energy storage mechanism.
>> 
>> Umm… here’s the problem. Having a 5,000 PSI hydrogen storage tank sitting
>> under your hood is like having 50 pounds of tannerite sitting in your trunk
>> at all times. If you get into an accident and that hydrogen tank is
>> damaged, the results will be catastrophic to say the least. Yes, lithiums
>> have their risks too, but they are still a lot safer than a 5000 PSI vessel
>> full of flammable gas.
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Re: [EVDL] Thin Film Storage of H2 at Lower pressures PLASMA KENETICS

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Well, what he is proposing in that video is just a means of storage, and 
appears to have nothing to do with how it is produced or what you produce it 
with.

As far as production of hydrogen is concerned, “dirty methane” is used less and 
less. It’s been several years already that the industry set 2030 as a goal for 
100% decarbonized hydrogen. In California, we are already almost there.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 1:59 PM, Steven Lough via EV  wrote:
> 
> This may have been talked about here already,  but it is the first for me 
> where I am not discarding the whole notion of Fool Cells, as I am so used to 
> calling them.
> 
> Seems to still be rather complicated.  But it is using electralizers in stead 
> of dirty methane.
> 
> ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=brEm4mEizns=963s )
> 
> Will be interested in all comments.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Compression is not “an issue”. It’s just something that’s a factor. 

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> The compression issue is another reason why excess wind and solar energy 
> should be converted to hydrogen for grid backup rather than vehicles. It 
> doesn't need to be compressed. This technique has been used for natural gas 
> for decades in some places, where there's a giant inflatable tank that's more 
> or less at atmospheric pressure.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
> Sent: 15-Aug-21 13:02:45
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> 
>> But then there is still the 30% loss in inefficiency in all the heat loss in
>> compressing the hydrogen into tanks. (and hoping it wont explode).
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM Michael Ross via EV  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> From the WIKI:
>>> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best
>>> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have
>>> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
>>> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in another
>>> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
>>> 
>>> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot of
>>> inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got that
>>> idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2 and
>>> H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
>>> >

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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

MUCH better chance of a battery catching fire than a hydrogen tank exploding. 
In fact, the latter is unlikely to happen. The former, it happens all the time.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 1:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> But then there is still the 30% loss in inefficiency in all the heat loss in
> compressing the hydrogen into tanks. (and hoping it wont explode).
> Bob
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM Michael Ross via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> From the WIKI:
>> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best
>> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have
>> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
>> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in another
>> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
>> 
>> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot of
>> inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got that
>> idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2 and
>> H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
>> 
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
>>> 
>>> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?
>>> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I
>>> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
>>> confusing a point.
>>> 
>>> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about.
>>> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
>>> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
>>> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
>>> energy storage mechanism.
>>> 
>>> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not
>>> true.
>>> 
>>> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
>>> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
>>> 

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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Amen.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 1:02 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> I think the future will be a combination of all sorts of means. We
> can't extraoplate any single energy source or means of distribution as THE
> ONE. It won't work that way.
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn’t green after all

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Hi Nathan,

I was thinking of 700 bar tanks with 3 per car and several hundred
million cars (not just Camrys) being made with these tanks.  As with
you, I would not want to be in or near such a car when it let go.  The
longer they are in a car, they will likely age and develop cracks.

There was a reference to a company called Plastic Kinetics that has
developed a way of storing hydrogen on thin film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEm4mEizns

If this is true and viable, it "solves" one of the major road blocks
to adoption; the storage of hydrogen at reasonable pressures.

The other major problems have been the use of platinum in creating PEM
fuel cells and the production of hydrogen.  There has been a lot of
hype on the later.

Until I can go into a dealer, buy a HFCEV, and drive to some remote
part of the country and not worry about a hydrogen supply, I'm
sticking with a BEV.

At least with a Tesla, there were a number of occasions where the
Tesla where you can be in the middle of nowhere and recharge.

Hope this helps.

Peter


On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 6:18 PM nathan christiansn via EV
 wrote:
>
> >Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I?m not sure what you are talking about.
> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
> energy storage mechanism.
>
> Umm… here’s the problem. Having a 5,000 PSI hydrogen storage tank sitting
> under your hood is like having 50 pounds of tannerite sitting in your trunk
> at all times. If you get into an accident and that hydrogen tank is
> damaged, the results will be catastrophic to say the least. Yes, lithiums
> have their risks too, but they are still a lot safer than a 5000 PSI vessel
> full of flammable gas.
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Hyzon FC trucks (hydrogen isn't green, after all)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

 is that it resists such changes with all its
>> might.  Thus it's almost a miracle that we've seen BEVs become more or less
>> mainstream, at least in Europe.
>> 
>> A change like that doesn't come along often.  TWO of each - BEVs and FCEVs,
>> charging service and hydrogen fuel service - just aren't bloody likely to
>> develop in one generation, let alone in a decade or two.
>> 
>> BEV public charging is growing fast, and its power is too.  BEVs are now
>> practical for many drivers, sometimes as an only vehicle.
>> 
>> Hydrogen fueling is barely growing at all.  FCEVs still aren't practical
>> transportation for anyone outside of a limited region in California.
>> 
>> BEVs have all the momentum, and I just don't see that changing.
>> 
>> Twenty years ago, FCEVs *could* have succeeded, if the manufacturers had
>> really wanted them to.  But they didn't, so FCEVs missed the road vehicle
>> alt-fuel train.  I could be wrong, but I don't think there'll be another.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe.
>> 
>>-- Vern, "Over the Hedge"
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn’t green after all

[nathan christiansn via EV]

>Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I?m not sure what you are talking about.
No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
energy storage mechanism.

Umm… here’s the problem. Having a 5,000 PSI hydrogen storage tank sitting
under your hood is like having 50 pounds of tannerite sitting in your trunk
at all times. If you get into an accident and that hydrogen tank is
damaged, the results will be catastrophic to say the least. Yes, lithiums
have their risks too, but they are still a lot safer than a 5000 PSI vessel
full of flammable gas.
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[EVDL] Thin Film Storage of H2 at Lower pressures PLASMA KENETICS

[Steven Lough via EV]

This may have been talked about here already,  but it is the first for 
me where I am not discarding the whole notion of Fool Cells, as I am so 
used to calling them.


Seems to still be rather complicated.  But it is using electralizers in 
stead of dirty methane.


( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=brEm4mEizns=963s )

Will be interested in all comments.


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Re: [EVDL] Electric riding mowers

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

My current (non-riding) mower is made by Greenworks. I love it. They have moved 
to lithium ion battery technology. They also have at least one commercial 
riding mower. You might want to have a look.

I like this company because the CEO is not only a nice guy, but is a motivated 
guy who wants all yard equipment to go electric. He has started from scratch 
and works his tail off. I give him credit for a movement that is gaining steam 
for commercial lawn companies to use electric yard equipment, and for cities to 
spec them in contracting out services.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 10:06 AM, fred via EV  wrote:
> 
>  I too have been disappointed in the lack of lithium-chemistry battery 
> electric mowers. Many moons ago, we purchased an Ariens Amp electric rider. 
> Twenty tiny VRSLA batteries (4s5p) stuffed under the seat. The mower has been 
> severely criticized in review from past times, although for wrong reasons, in 
> my opinion.
> In the Florida heat, the pack managed to last three years. The replacement 
> US$600.00 pack lasted about a year and a half. Thanks to a list member, my 
> mower now sports a half-module from a Volt.
> I'm aware from my lead-acid Xebra days that fifty percent DoD is safest, so 
> the mower got equipped with a CycleAnalyst, high current version. That meant 
> I could baby the lead-acid pack, but it still could not tolerate the heat of 
> the day or the heat of the storage. It turned into a 
> three-charge-cycles-to-mow-a-quarter-acre mower.
> Having the Volt half-module means I can get two runs, possibly three from a 
> single charge, but I am babying the pack even now by not max-charging it and 
> bringing the battery inside after each use and also no charging it until the 
> day before it is needed. I had to purchase a full module for US$600 but that 
> means I have twice the capacity (but can't fit them both inside) so I 
> alternate the batteries. To further ensure long happy life, I purchased an 
> expensive charger that does individual cell balancing and the Volt battery 
> came with a balancing cable! I expect the modules will outlast me.
> Any EV owner knows how the quiet is the best part of the vehicle (opinion, of 
> course), but the Amp really screwed that up. They used what I suspect is the 
> technology they knew and put a hydrostatic transmission in this thing. That 
> means the traction motor runs constantly to keep the system pressurized, a 
> complete waste of energy. Hydraulics are not known to be particularly 
> efficient in power transfer. The two systems alone amount for eighty percent 
> of the noise. One neighbor told me that he was surprised I had a fuel powered 
> mower, after hearing me start it.
> If I had to replace the Amp, I'd look for a lithium version I could afford, 
> or consider immediately to replace the lead pack.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Most here don’t make disclosures, but I will disclose that Plug Power is a 
client. I don’t speak for them, though, and my comments, as anyways, are my own 
opinion.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 9:21 AM, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:
> 
> Well, I didn’t saw that batteries were inefficient, but they can be.
> 
> As far as hydrogen not being efficient or inefficient to produce from 
> electrolysis, again, not a point I made. But what do you consider efficient?
> 
> Economical? Okay, it wasn’t clear you meant that. At a 3¢/kWh cost of solar, 
> Plug Power has said that they can produce hydrogen from electrolysis at a 
> cost that is competitive with that of hydrogen made from fossil. I think that 
> number is $1.50/kg.  They are building plants right now.  
> 
> They also have said that within a few years they will be cost competitive 
> with diesel.
> 
> The numbers here are irrelevant to the point, though, and I think take away 
> from it. In terms of being economical, it only has to be competitive with 
> whatever else is being used.(if a bear is chasing us both, I don’t need to be 
> faster than the bear, only faster than you).  And the economics can be 
> inclusive of other things, too - storage, space, regulatory requirements, 
> etc.. so don’t get too caught up on specific numbers. And in a nascent 
> technology, those numbers change quickly! 
> 
> So, I gave you numbers, but did they really help?
> 
> 
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> I am very clear: it is not efficient nor economical to produce hydrogen 
>> from electrolysis and it is more efficient and economic to use and store 
>> electricity in batteries than to convert to hydrogen, compress and transport 
>> it, then convert it back to electricity using a fuel cell.
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>> 
>> Sent: 15-Aug-21 08:29:29
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
>> 
>>> I made several points. You weren’t clear what you didn’t believe.
>>> 
>>> Let me know and I’ll do my best to address it.
>>> 
>>> - Mark
>>> 
>>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>> 
> On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
> wrote:
 
 Mark, it's you who is attempting to make a point. I'm waiting for you to 
 substantiate your point. If you can do that without numbers, that's fine.
 
 Peri
 
 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 Sent: 14-Aug-21 21:19:00
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
 
> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be made 
> without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
> 
> 

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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peri Hartman via EV]

 300,000 to 500,000 miles with
 > > Musk's goal of 1 million miles.  A million miles is 20K miles per year
 > > for 50 years.  Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack.
 > >
 > > Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92
 > > to 97% of a pack.
 > >
 > > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
 > > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.
 > >
 > > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
 > > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
 > > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
 > > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.
 > >
 > >
 > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
 > >>  wrote:
 > >>
 > >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be
 > made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
 > >>
 > >> - Mark
 > >>
 > >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
 > >>
 > >>>> On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 > wrote:
 > >>>
 > >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers
 > in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do,
 > beside repeat research you've already done.
 > >>> Peri
 > >>>
 > >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
 > >>>
 > >>> -- Original Message --
 > >>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 > >>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
 > List" 
 > >>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
 > >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
 > >>>
 > >>>> I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue”
 > hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered.
 > >>>>
 > >>>> All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your
 > concerns about the ability to really do it.
 > >>>>
 > >>>> On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.
 > >>>>
 > >>>> Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting
 > numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one
 > company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they
 > can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and
 > within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need
 > to compare it with.
 > >>>>
 > >>>> - Mark
 > >>>>
 > >>>>
 > >>>
 > >>> ___
 > >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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 > >>>
 > >>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

ck.
> > >
> > > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
> > > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.
> > >
> > > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
> > > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
> > > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
> > > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be
> > made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
> > >>
> > >> - Mark
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> > >>
> > >>>> On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers
> > in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do,
> > beside repeat research you've already done.
> > >>> Peri
> > >>>
> > >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> > >>>
> > >>> -- Original Message --
> > >>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> > >>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> > List" 
> > >>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
> > >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> > >>>
> > >>>> I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue”
> > hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your
> > concerns about the ability to really do it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting
> > numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one
> > company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they
> > can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and
> > within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need
> > to compare it with.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Mark
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ___
> > >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> ___
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> >
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

ome direction.
>> >
>> > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
>> > included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
>> > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
>> > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
>> > very inefficient.
>> >
>> > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
>> > Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom.  If it
>> > didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build.
>> > Tanker trucks are another story.  They are capacity limited.
>> >
>> > I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them.
>> > Most of what I read is hype.
>> >
>> > Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from  300,000 to 500,000 miles with
>> > Musk's goal of 1 million miles.  A million miles is 20K miles per year
>> > for 50 years.  Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack.
>> >
>> > Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92
>> > to 97% of a pack.
>> >
>> > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
>> > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.
>> >
>> > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
>> > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
>> > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
>> > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
>> >>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be
>> made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
>> >>
>> >> - Mark
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> >>
>> >>>> On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide
>> numbers in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other
>> things to do, beside repeat research you've already done.
>> >>> Peri
>> >>>
>> >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>> >>>
>> >>> -- Original Message --
>> >>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
>> >>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List" 
>> >>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
>> >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
>> >>>
>> >>>> I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue”
>> hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your
>> concerns about the ability to really do it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting
>> numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one
>> company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they
>> can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and
>> within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need
>> to compare it with.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - Mark
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>> >>>
>> >>
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>> >
>>
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>>
>
>
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> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
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> Google Phone and Text
>
>
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Well, I didn’t saw that batteries were inefficient, but they can be.

As far as hydrogen not being efficient or inefficient to produce from 
electrolysis, again, not a point I made. But what do you consider efficient?

Economical? Okay, it wasn’t clear you meant that. At a 3¢/kWh cost of solar, 
Plug Power has said that they can produce hydrogen from electrolysis at a cost 
that is competitive with that of hydrogen made from fossil. I think that number 
is $1.50/kg.  They are building plants right now.  

They also have said that within a few years they will be cost competitive with 
diesel.

The numbers here are irrelevant to the point, though, and I think take away 
from it. In terms of being economical, it only has to be competitive with 
whatever else is being used.(if a bear is chasing us both, I don’t need to be 
faster than the bear, only faster than you).  And the economics can be 
inclusive of other things, too - storage, space, regulatory requirements, etc.. 
so don’t get too caught up on specific numbers. And in a nascent technology, 
those numbers change quickly! 

So, I gave you numbers, but did they really help?



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> I am very clear: it is not efficient nor economical to produce hydrogen from 
> electrolysis and it is more efficient and economic to use and store 
> electricity in batteries than to convert to hydrogen, compress and transport 
> it, then convert it back to electricity using a fuel cell.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: 15-Aug-21 08:29:29
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> 
>> I made several points. You weren’t clear what you didn’t believe.
>> 
>> Let me know and I’ll do my best to address it.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
 On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mark, it's you who is attempting to make a point. I'm waiting for you to 
>>> substantiate your point. If you can do that without numbers, that's fine.
>>> 
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>> Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
>>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 21:19:00
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
>>> 
 I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be made 
 without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.

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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[paul dove via EV]

 Says it has a five year warranty. Did you call the company?

On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 11:15:50 AM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I have the 56 volt self propelled EGO mower and was very impressed
until the 3rd year or
so when the battery wont charge and all I get is blinking red lights.
The replacement
cost for just the battery is over $300.  Is this usual to wear out tht fast?

My mowing area is maybe a gtenth of an acre and my mowing need is modest.
 I always completed it on one charge
though did get down to blinking red maybe a half dozen times.

But am loath to put $300 more into it, not knowing if it is the
battery or the charger.
To check, I disasembld the battery and lightly charged up any low
cells to match the
others (there was no significant mismatch anyway), but still the
charger wont charge it.

Bob

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:06 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> I've been using a self propel Ego mower on about 1/2 acre of grass for
> the last 4 years. They have just come out with a riding version that
> uses their 56v ARC Lithium batteries, but it's pricy.
>
> I've been very happy with all of the chargers/batteries/lawn tools from
> EGO with the EXCEPTION of the self propel unit on the lawnmower. (With a
> 1/2 acre lawn, I've burned through 5 self propel units --all repaired or
> replaced under the Ego 5 year warranty...no other issues with the rest
> of the mower, but still, not impressed by the quality of the self propel
> units.  My lawn size really is in the ride-on category, so I'm working
> the heck out of that little self propel mower.)
>
> If it wasn't for the issues with the self propel unit, I'd recommend the
> Ego ride on without reservations even without having tried it out myself
> just based on all of my good experiences with just about everything else
> Ego puts out.  There warranty support has been great, but I don't know
> how that would work with a larger ride-on mower.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On 8/15/21 4:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
> > small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
> > around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
> > of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
> > feet without needing to sit.
> >
> > I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
> > 56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
> > lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
> > comfortable with lead acid probably.?
> >
> > Bob
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

int can certainly be
> made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
> >>
> >> - Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >>
> >>>> On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers
> in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do,
> beside repeat research you've already done.
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >>>
> >>> -- Original Message --
> >>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> >>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> >>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
> >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> >>>
> >>>> I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue”
> hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered.
> >>>>
> >>>> All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your
> concerns about the ability to really do it.
> >>>>
> >>>> On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.
> >>>>
> >>>> Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting
> numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one
> company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they
> can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and
> within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need
> to compare it with.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Mark
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.

Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?  Then 
it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I hadn’t a 
clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be confusing a point.

Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about. No 
Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they are 
dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed better 
than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other energy 
storage mechanism.

Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not true.

Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very efficient”? 
What do you consider acceptable efficiency?

Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the basis 
for your assumption that it leaks because it is small?

Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk about 
goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I wish them 
luck. I own stock in the company.

Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste. Fuel 
cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal, today.

What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get the 
best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any decisions 
based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there seems to be a lot 
of that that you are considering.

BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen 
transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil. 

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV  wrote:
> 
> Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
> carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
> a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
> general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
> tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
> manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.
> 
> If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
> included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
> rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
> At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
> very inefficient.
> 
> Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
> Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom.  If it
> didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build.
> Tanker trucks are another story.  They are capacity limited.
> 
> I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them.
> Most of what I read is hype.
> 
> Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from  300,000 to 500,000 miles with
> Musk's goal of 1 million miles.  A million miles is 20K miles per year
> for 50 years.  Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack.
> 
> Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92
> to 97% of a pack.
> 
> There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
> to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.
> 
> I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
> is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
> have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
> point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be made 
>> without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
 On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers in 
>>> your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do, 
>>> beside repeat research you've already done.
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
>>> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>> 
>>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
>>> 
 I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue” 
 hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered.
 
 All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your concerns 
 about the ability to really do it.
 
 On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.
 
 Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting 
 numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one 
 company that is building production 

Re: [EVDL] Hyzon FC trucks (hydrogen isn't green, after all)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe.

-- Vern, "Over the Hedge"

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] Solid state hydrogen still isn't as affordable as batteries,

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I’m not understanding this. Your problem is that it produces a profit? And that 
profit might be invested into fossil fuels? Very little of anything would be 
produced if it didn’t make a profit.

And please don’t buy any EVs that are made by anyone but Tesla, because the 
profits will likely be invested in ICEs to some extent. And don’t charge your 
EV in the UK because the largest EV charging company there was bought several 
years ago by the oil company Total.

I really must have missed your point.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
>  I watched this video and found that they have solved the compression 
> problem but it is still big oil friendly. That is it will be a process that 
> forces the user to pay into a system that can be manipulated to increase 
> profit. Like refillable natural gas 
> canisters.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEm4mEizns
> This video did not mention KWs so they sort of didn't give a comparison in 
> numbers to batteries but essentially they are making solid state hydrogen 
> storage. I am a bit skeptical because of no apples to apples comparisons. The 
> source hydrogen could be from any source. The advantage seems to be no 
> compression. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[paul dove via EV]

Hyzon Motors has begun shipping hydrogen fuel cell trucks to customers – 
TechCrunch 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2021/08/11/hyzon-motors-has-begun-shipping-hydrogen-fuel-cell-trucks-to-customers/amp/
Interesting startup



Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 2:58 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:

I'm not an expert, just a longtime EV follower, but I think that when it 
comes to road vehicles, hydrogen had its chance and missed it. 

In 2001, the limitation on EVs was, and always had been, the battery.  In 
1999, the GM EV1 had had a 26kWh NiMH battery, and the Nissan Altra EV had 
had a 32 kWh lithium ion battery - more than respectable for the time.  But 
NiMH was artificially locked out of real world EVs, and both types were 
hideously expensive.  For all intents and purposes, in 2001 EV batteries 
were still lead. A typical conversion carried maybe 12kWh of usable 
capacity.

Who here would have guessed then that 20 years hence we'd have production 
EVs at all, much less production EVs with batteries in the 50-100kWh 
capacity range?  Who would have thought that 150kW public charging would 
start to appear on main highways, potentially charging a 50kWh battery in 20 
minutes?

In 2001, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai all had concept and/or 
demonstration FCEVs running.  The feeble BEV range of the time opened a 
window of opportunity for them.

Honda was the first to US market (California lease only) with the FCX 
Clarity in 2008.  Between 2008 and 2015, they leased all of 48.  (They now 
have another on offer, but again only in California, for reasons that will 
become clear in a moment.)

After what they did with getting the Prius to market, you'd think that if 
anyone could make FCEVs a success, it would be Toyota.  

Toyota put the Mirai FCEV on US offer in 2015 (exactly 6 years ago to the 
day, in fact).  It had a fairly impressive per-fillup range of 312 miles.  

Unfortunately, that hydrogen fillup cost about $85.  And since hydrogen was 
nigh onto unavailable anywhere but in California (even today only 17 other 
states have *any* H2 stations), that was the only state where you could buy 
one -  or drive one.

That same year, 2015, you could buy a Tesla Model S 85D with 260+ miles of 
range and fill it up at any supercharger in any state.  The S cost more than 
the Mirai did, but the cost of "free" supercharger use for as long as you 
owned it was still built into the price of the car.

2016 Sales

Toyota Mirai: 1,034
Tesla Model S: 29,421

Now why do you suppose Tesla sold over 28 times as many in 2016?

I have serious reservations about any automaker developing its own fueling 
infrastructure, but the fact is that Tesla built superchargers by the dozens 
and hundreds.  How many hydrogen filling stations did Toyota build?  

EVs are a HUGE change in vehicle culture.  Public charging for them is a 
HUGE investment in infrastructure.

The reality of capitalism is that it resists such changes with all its 
might.  Thus it's almost a miracle that we've seen BEVs become more or less 
mainstream, at least in Europe.  

A change like that doesn't come along often.  TWO of each - BEVs and FCEVs, 
charging service and hydrogen fuel service - just aren't bloody likely to 
develop in one generation, let alone in a decade or two.  

BEV public charging is growing fast, and its power is too.  BEVs are now 
practical for many drivers, sometimes as an only vehicle.

Hydrogen fueling is barely growing at all.  FCEVs still aren't practical 
transportation for anyone outside of a limited region in California.  

BEVs have all the momentum, and I just don't see that changing.

Twenty years ago, FCEVs *could* have succeeded, if the manufacturers had 
really wanted them to.  But they didn't, so FCEVs missed the road vehicle 
alt-fuel train.  I could be wrong, but I don't think there'll be another.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
    I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe. 

                        -- Vern, "Over the Hedge" 

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[EVDL] Electric riding mowers

[fred via EV]

 I too have been disappointed in the lack of lithium-chemistry battery electric 
mowers. Many moons ago, we purchased an Ariens Amp electric rider. Twenty tiny 
VRSLA batteries (4s5p) stuffed under the seat. The mower has been severely 
criticized in review from past times, although for wrong reasons, in my opinion.
In the Florida heat, the pack managed to last three years. The replacement 
US$600.00 pack lasted about a year and a half. Thanks to a list member, my 
mower now sports a half-module from a Volt.
I'm aware from my lead-acid Xebra days that fifty percent DoD is safest, so the 
mower got equipped with a CycleAnalyst, high current version. That meant I 
could baby the lead-acid pack, but it still could not tolerate the heat of the 
day or the heat of the storage. It turned into a 
three-charge-cycles-to-mow-a-quarter-acre mower.
Having the Volt half-module means I can get two runs, possibly three from a 
single charge, but I am babying the pack even now by not max-charging it and 
bringing the battery inside after each use and also no charging it until the 
day before it is needed. I had to purchase a full module for US$600 but that 
means I have twice the capacity (but can't fit them both inside) so I alternate 
the batteries. To further ensure long happy life, I purchased an expensive 
charger that does individual cell balancing and the Volt battery came with a 
balancing cable! I expect the modules will outlast me.
Any EV owner knows how the quiet is the best part of the vehicle (opinion, of 
course), but the Amp really screwed that up. They used what I suspect is the 
technology they knew and put a hydrostatic transmission in this thing. That 
means the traction motor runs constantly to keep the system pressurized, a 
complete waste of energy. Hydraulics are not known to be particularly efficient 
in power transfer. The two systems alone amount for eighty percent of the 
noise. One neighbor told me that he was surprised I had a fuel powered mower, 
after hearing me start it.
If I had to replace the Amp, I'd look for a lithium version I could afford, or 
consider immediately to replace the lead pack.

  
 
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Re: [EVDL] Solid state hydrogen still isn't as affordable as batteries,

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

That, if it comes to fruition, is a solution to one of the big
hindrance to hydrogen usage.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 10:43 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
>
>  I watched this video and found that they have solved the compression problem 
> but it is still big oil friendly. That is it will be a process that forces 
> the user to pay into a system that can be manipulated to increase profit. 
> Like refillable natural gas 
> canisters.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEm4mEizns
> This video did not mention KWs so they sort of didn't give a comparison in 
> numbers to batteries but essentially they are making solid state hydrogen 
> storage. I am a bit skeptical because of no apples to apples comparisons. The 
> source hydrogen could be from any source. The advantage seems to be no 
> compression. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 8/15/21 12:15 PM, Robert Bruninga wrote:

I have the 56 volt self propelled EGO mower and was very impressed
until the 3rd year or
so when the battery wont charge and all I get is blinking red lights.
The replacement
cost for just the battery is over $300.  Is this usual to wear out tht fast?


They only offer a 3 year warranty on their batteries and chargers.

I own 3 7.5 AH batteries, a 5AH one, and 4 2.5 AH batteries (plus 2 fast 
chargers and several regular chargers). I've never had any of the 
batteries or chargers failbut have heard from others that they 
sometimes do.


After 3 years my 7.5 AH batteries are down to about half capacity (but 
my 4 year old one is still at half capacity, so the capacity loss 
appears to slow down after the first 3 years) so you will have to 
eventually buy a 2nd or a replacement battery.


Capacity graphs:
https://www.summet.com/blog/2020/11/20/ego-7-5ah-battery-degradation-over-time-3-year-mark/

(More than a year out of date..about time for me to publish a 4 year 
update...)





My mowing area is maybe a gtenth of an acre and my mowing need is modest.
  I always completed it on one charge
though did get down to blinking red maybe a half dozen times.


[with a 1/10th acre lot you may not need a 2nd battery, but I need 2-4 
batteries to mow my entire lawn depending on the season/weather...]




But am loath to put $300 more into it, not knowing if it is the
battery or the charger.
To check, I disasembld the battery and lightly charged up any low
cells to match the
others (there was no significant mismatch anyway), but still the
charger wont charge it.



Blinking red light on the charger can indicate a high-temp situation on 
the battery (at which point it turns on the fan but doesn't charge until 
the high temp is reduced). But it can also indicate a battery failure 
(or possibly a charger error, but those are usually indicated by no 
lights]


You can pick up a used regular charger relatively cheap on Ebay to test 
the battery for sure, but my guess is that it is probably a battery issue.


Several of my batteries (one 7.5ah, one 5ah, and a few of the 2.5 AH) 
came with used EGO equiptment I purchased off of Craigslist...buying the 
batteries with a kit of equipment that includes 
charger/battery/equipment is the most economical way to go for the 2.5 
AH batteries if you are buying them new and need something like a 
chainsaw, weed wacker, blower, edger, etc...



Jay
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I have the 56 volt self propelled EGO mower and was very impressed
until the 3rd year or
so when the battery wont charge and all I get is blinking red lights.
The replacement
cost for just the battery is over $300.  Is this usual to wear out tht fast?

My mowing area is maybe a gtenth of an acre and my mowing need is modest.
 I always completed it on one charge
though did get down to blinking red maybe a half dozen times.

But am loath to put $300 more into it, not knowing if it is the
battery or the charger.
To check, I disasembld the battery and lightly charged up any low
cells to match the
others (there was no significant mismatch anyway), but still the
charger wont charge it.

Bob

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:06 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> I've been using a self propel Ego mower on about 1/2 acre of grass for
> the last 4 years. They have just come out with a riding version that
> uses their 56v ARC Lithium batteries, but it's pricy.
>
> I've been very happy with all of the chargers/batteries/lawn tools from
> EGO with the EXCEPTION of the self propel unit on the lawnmower. (With a
> 1/2 acre lawn, I've burned through 5 self propel units --all repaired or
> replaced under the Ego 5 year warranty...no other issues with the rest
> of the mower, but still, not impressed by the quality of the self propel
> units.  My lawn size really is in the ride-on category, so I'm working
> the heck out of that little self propel mower.)
>
> If it wasn't for the issues with the self propel unit, I'd recommend the
> Ego ride on without reservations even without having tried it out myself
> just based on all of my good experiences with just about everything else
> Ego puts out.  There warranty support has been great, but I don't know
> how that would work with a larger ride-on mower.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On 8/15/21 4:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
> > small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
> > around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
> > of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
> > feet without needing to sit.
> >
> > I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
> > 56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
> > lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
> > comfortable with lead acid probably.?
> >
> > Bob
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Jay Summet via EV]

I've been using a self propel Ego mower on about 1/2 acre of grass for 
the last 4 years. They have just come out with a riding version that 
uses their 56v ARC Lithium batteries, but it's pricy.


I've been very happy with all of the chargers/batteries/lawn tools from 
EGO with the EXCEPTION of the self propel unit on the lawnmower. (With a 
1/2 acre lawn, I've burned through 5 self propel units --all repaired or 
replaced under the Ego 5 year warranty...no other issues with the rest 
of the mower, but still, not impressed by the quality of the self propel 
units.  My lawn size really is in the ride-on category, so I'm working 
the heck out of that little self propel mower.)


If it wasn't for the issues with the self propel unit, I'd recommend the 
Ego ride on without reservations even without having tried it out myself 
just based on all of my good experiences with just about everything else 
Ego puts out.  There warranty support has been great, but I don't know 
how that would work with a larger ride-on mower.


Jay



On 8/15/21 4:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
feet without needing to sit.

I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
comfortable with lead acid probably.?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I am very clear: it is not efficient nor economical to produce hydrogen 
from electrolysis and it is more efficient and economic to use and store 
electricity in batteries than to convert to hydrogen, compress and 
transport it, then convert it back to electricity using a fuel cell.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 15-Aug-21 08:29:29
Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all


I made several points. You weren’t clear what you didn’t believe.

Let me know and I’ll do my best to address it.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 Mark, it's you who is attempting to make a point. I'm waiting for you to 
substantiate your point. If you can do that without numbers, that's fine.

 Peri

 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 Sent: 14-Aug-21 21:19:00
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all


 I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be made 
without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.

 - Mark

 Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:


 Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers in your 
post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do, beside 
repeat research you've already done.
 Peri

 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

 Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all


 I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue” hydrogen, 
made from fossil with carbon sequestered.

 All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your concerns about 
the ability to really do it.

 On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.

 Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting numbers. 
And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one company that is 
building production plants as we speak, believes that they can produce green 
hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and within a few years, 
competitive with diesel, which is really what we need to compare it with.

 - Mark




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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.

If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
very inefficient.

Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom.  If it
didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build.
Tanker trucks are another story.  They are capacity limited.

I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them.
Most of what I read is hype.

Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from  300,000 to 500,000 miles with
Musk's goal of 1 million miles.  A million miles is 20K miles per year
for 50 years.  Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack.

Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92
to 97% of a pack.

There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.

I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.


On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
 wrote:
>
> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be made 
> without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers in 
> > your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do, 
> > beside repeat research you've already done.
> > Peri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> > To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> > 
> > Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> >
> >> I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue” 
> >> hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered.
> >>
> >> All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your concerns 
> >> about the ability to really do it.
> >>
> >> On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.
> >>
> >> Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting 
> >> numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one 
> >> company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they 
> >> can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and 
> >> within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need 
> >> to compare it with.
> >>
> >> - Mark
> >>
> >>
> >
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>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Mark, it's you who is attempting to make a point. I'm waiting for you to 
substantiate your point. If you can do that without numbers, that's 
fine.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Sent: 14-Aug-21 21:19:00
Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all


I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be made 
without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers in your 
post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do, beside 
repeat research you've already done.
 Peri

 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

 Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all


 I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue” hydrogen, 
made from fossil with carbon sequestered.

 All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your concerns about 
the ability to really do it.

 On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off.

 Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting numbers. 
And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one company that is 
building production plants as we speak, believes that they can produce green 
hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and within a few years, 
competitive with diesel, which is really what we need to compare it with.

 - Mark




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[EVDL] Solid state hydrogen still isn't as affordable as batteries,

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 I watched this video and found that they have solved the compression problem 
but it is still big oil friendly. That is it will be a process that forces the 
user to pay into a system that can be manipulated to increase profit. Like 
refillable natural gas canisters.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEm4mEizns
This video did not mention KWs so they sort of didn't give a comparison in 
numbers to batteries but essentially they are making solid state hydrogen 
storage. I am a bit skeptical because of no apples to apples comparisons. The 
source hydrogen could be from any source. The advantage seems to be no 
compression. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Willie via EV]

On 8/15/21 6:41 AM, Pestka Dennis via EV wrote:

Bob;

I purchased the 100Ahr Ryobi about a year ago, and I love it. It does have lead acid 
batteries as you stated, but they are AGM with no maintenance. Your 1/10 acre and 
hills will be a piece of cake for it. I have about 3 acres to cut and I use it along 
with my wife on a zero turn. I can cut an hour with some hills and flat area's, and 
it doesn't even use half of the range. One of the main reasons I purchase it was for 
the bagging attachment. It is very simple to take off and on, and works really well. 
A have a lot of trees and it get a real workout in the fall picking up leaves. 
Tractor comes with 38" mower, charger, headlights, cruise control, and even a 
USB plug for your cell phone. It has a very tight turning radius, and an easy height 
adjuster for the mower deck. I purchased mine through Home Depot, and they delivered 
it right to my house.


I have had the same for about a year.  38" as I recall.  I continue to 
seek a better quality mower but with lithium.  I probably expect too 
much of the mower.  Mowing fairly rough ground surrounding my ground 
mount PV panels.  Having the first blade motor replaced took it out of 
service for a couple of months and cost about $300.  It has been out of 
service for a month again while I await the arrival of another $200 
blade motor.  No battery trouble.  So far.




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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Pestka Dennis via EV]

Bob;

I purchased the 100Ahr Ryobi about a year ago, and I love it. It does have lead 
acid batteries as you stated, but they are AGM with no maintenance. Your 1/10 
acre and hills will be a piece of cake for it. I have about 3 acres to cut and 
I use it along with my wife on a zero turn. I can cut an hour with some hills 
and flat area's, and it doesn't even use half of the range. One of the main 
reasons I purchase it was for the bagging attachment. It is very simple to take 
off and on, and works really well. A have a lot of trees and it get a real 
workout in the fall picking up leaves. Tractor comes with 38" mower, charger, 
headlights, cruise control, and even a USB plug for your cell phone. It has a 
very tight turning radius, and an easy height adjuster for the mower deck. I 
purchased mine through Home Depot, and they delivered it right to my house.

Dennis
Elsberry, MO


From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 

Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 3:01 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Robert Bruninga 
Subject: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
feet without needing to sit.

I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
comfortable with lead acid probably.?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Steves via EV]

I’m assuming that lead acid is cheaper than comparable lithium. In a riding 
mower, weight is of little concern, so lead is much more cost effective. If the 
mower has any accessories such as a blade, then the added weight is an 
advantage - my ElecTrak is very heavy and so has lots of traction. 

You will enjoy the quiet mowing and not fooling with another ICE. 

I tell my friends : 
The complexity of your life is directly proportional to how many gas engines 
you own, 2 strokes count double. 
No one has ever argued against.

-Steve

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 4:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
> small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
> around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
> of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
> feet without needing to sit.
> 
> I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
> 56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
> lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
> comfortable with lead acid probably.?
> 
> Bob
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[EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
feet without needing to sit.

I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
comfortable with lead acid probably.?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

I'm not an expert, just a longtime EV follower, but I think that when it 
comes to road vehicles, hydrogen had its chance and missed it. 

In 2001, the limitation on EVs was, and always had been, the battery.  In 
1999, the GM EV1 had had a 26kWh NiMH battery, and the Nissan Altra EV had 
had a 32 kWh lithium ion battery - more than respectable for the time.  But 
NiMH was artificially locked out of real world EVs, and both types were 
hideously expensive.  For all intents and purposes, in 2001 EV batteries 
were still lead. A typical conversion carried maybe 12kWh of usable 
capacity.

Who here would have guessed then that 20 years hence we'd have production 
EVs at all, much less production EVs with batteries in the 50-100kWh 
capacity range?  Who would have thought that 150kW public charging would 
start to appear on main highways, potentially charging a 50kWh battery in 20 
minutes?

In 2001, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai all had concept and/or 
demonstration FCEVs running.  The feeble BEV range of the time opened a 
window of opportunity for them.

Honda was the first to US market (California lease only) with the FCX 
Clarity in 2008.  Between 2008 and 2015, they leased all of 48.  (They now 
have another on offer, but again only in California, for reasons that will 
become clear in a moment.)

After what they did with getting the Prius to market, you'd think that if 
anyone could make FCEVs a success, it would be Toyota.  

Toyota put the Mirai FCEV on US offer in 2015 (exactly 6 years ago to the 
day, in fact).  It had a fairly impressive per-fillup range of 312 miles.  

Unfortunately, that hydrogen fillup cost about $85.  And since hydrogen was 
nigh onto unavailable anywhere but in California (even today only 17 other 
states have *any* H2 stations), that was the only state where you could buy 
one -  or drive one.

That same year, 2015, you could buy a Tesla Model S 85D with 260+ miles of 
range and fill it up at any supercharger in any state.  The S cost more than 
the Mirai did, but the cost of "free" supercharger use for as long as you 
owned it was still built into the price of the car.

2016 Sales

Toyota Mirai: 1,034
Tesla Model S: 29,421

Now why do you suppose Tesla sold over 28 times as many in 2016?

I have serious reservations about any automaker developing its own fueling 
infrastructure, but the fact is that Tesla built superchargers by the dozens 
and hundreds.  How many hydrogen filling stations did Toyota build?  

EVs are a HUGE change in vehicle culture.  Public charging for them is a 
HUGE investment in infrastructure.

The reality of capitalism is that it resists such changes with all its 
might.  Thus it's almost a miracle that we've seen BEVs become more or less 
mainstream, at least in Europe.  

A change like that doesn't come along often.  TWO of each - BEVs and FCEVs, 
charging service and hydrogen fuel service - just aren't bloody likely to 
develop in one generation, let alone in a decade or two.  

BEV public charging is growing fast, and its power is too.  BEVs are now 
practical for many drivers, sometimes as an only vehicle.

Hydrogen fueling is barely growing at all.  FCEVs still aren't practical 
transportation for anyone outside of a limited region in California.  

BEVs have all the momentum, and I just don't see that changing.

Twenty years ago, FCEVs *could* have succeeded, if the manufacturers had 
really wanted them to.  But they didn't, so FCEVs missed the road vehicle 
alt-fuel train.  I could be wrong, but I don't think there'll be another.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe. 

 -- Vern, "Over the Hedge" 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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