Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
I think in certain situations, an EV could be a very good purchasing decision -- just based on cost, nothing else. I was looking at the numbers for leasing a leaf vs leasing a prius (which I am now doing), and the lease cost is about the same (if anything, the Leaf is a little cheaper to lease), and the fuel cost is quite a bit less with the leaf, if the primary use is just for commuting. If used for more longer trips, the prius might win out (vs using another vehicle for longer trips that doesn't get as good of mileage as the prius would), but it's close. I've always wanted the EV for the environmental reasons, but looking at the Leaf leases was the first time I realized that it might make more sense just be be cheap, too :) On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Alan Brinkman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A few vehicle manufacturers did offer, and I think a few still do offer a car or truck that runs on compressed natural gas. You can fill at a public station or have a small cng compressor installed in your garage if you have natural gas at your home and a minimum supply flow. Consumers with a cng compressor at home and a cng burning car or truck will understand the transition to a battery electric vehicle and filling up with energy at home in the garage because that is what they have become used to. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 12:04 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes Rick Beebe via EV wrote: I have two EVs and a PHEV so I'm well aware of the advantages of starting out with a full vehicle every morning. But there are millions of people who live in places where they can't plug their car in and I bet some number of them are wishing they could get away from gas. Most people are fearful of change. They already know the gas pump model, and would only tolerate an EV if it works the same. I.e. they expect to drive to an electric fuel station, where there is a big box like a gas pump. It has a hose and a connector that plugs into their car, just like a gas pump, that will charge their car in about the same amount of time it would take to fill a gas tank. And, they want it to be *cheaper*, or they'll never change away from gas. rest of message cut ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141020/1c02ab05/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
On 16 Oct 2014 at 8:54, Rick Beebe via EV wrote: EVs are, in general, a poor purchasing decision anyway But driving electric isn't about the economics or the convenience. For me it's about the environment and where I choose to send my money. This is a problem for EVs, mostly because people like you and me are in short supply. As long as EVs are ...a poor purchasing decision ... the only way we'll get significant numbers of ordinary folks to buy them is to give them (the people, I mean) cash or other monetary incentives. The hope is that by offering these incentives, we stimulate EV production, economy of scale kicks in, and EVs actually DO become a good purchasing decision without the incentives. I think it will work. Still, I can't help thinking of the print ads that Toyota ran 40 years ago. Detroit's Big Three were really starting to feel the pinch of higher quality in imports, along with their own failure to offer anything really fuel- efficient and decent (think Ford Pinto and Chevy Vega) in the wake of the OPEC boycott. To stimulate their lagging sales, GM, Ford, and Chrysler introduced their first (in my memory) rebates. Toyota didn't need rebates. They had well-made, fuel-efficient cars. In fact, they could hardly make them fast enough. They didn't stop advertising, though. And they couldn't resist needling Detroit a bit: When you build good cars, they wrote, you don't have to pay people to buy them. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
On Oct 16, 2014, at 9:49 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: As long as EVs are ...a poor purchasing decision ... the only way we'll get significant numbers of ordinary folks to buy them is to give them (the people, I mean) cash or other monetary incentives. This is true for most personal car buyers, but the gap overall is narrowing and already favors electric in some very significant categories. First, unless I'm mistraken, the fastest-accelerating 0-60 production car on the market isn't the famous McLaren F1, but the Tesla S. That a luxury electric sedan beats a gasoline-powered supercar on the drag strip (even if not on the salt flats) is remarkable. For those for whom money is no object, electric vehicles are already going toe-to-toe with their gas-powered competitors. Next, those economies of scale already result in superior financial results for many fleet operators, especially for heavy vehicles. See the recent story about Chicago's adoption of electric garbage trucks; they're saving money by going electric. You can therefore expect adoption of electric municipal vehicles to start to skyrocket. Via motors is another example; if you buy their trucks and vans and run them 80% of the time electrically, you've essentially electrified 80% of your fleet even though 100% of them still have a gas tank. And that last point has some silent-but-deadly force multipliers working for it. If an electric garbage truck needs ten times as many batteries as a family sedan that weighs a tenth as much, then each truck is the same for the battery factory as ten cars. A fleet of an hundred such trucks is as big an order as a thousand car sales -- and the former is much easier to pull off than the latter. For the immediate future, personal electric vehicles will remain the province of enthusiasts and early adopters who don't care as much about the financial costs, but it won't be all ithat/i much longer before anybody who calculates vehicle expenses over a five-year term will unquestionably pick the electric model as the better investment. And not much longer after that, electric will be akin to an upgrade from a manual to an automatic transmission such that only the most extremely short-sighted (or those who prefer gasoline for other reasons) will avoid electric. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141016/88cdc7c6/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
Rick Beebe via EV wrote: I have two EVs and a PHEV so I'm well aware of the advantages of starting out with a full vehicle every morning. But there are millions of people who live in places where they can't plug their car in and I bet some number of them are wishing they could get away from gas. Most people are fearful of change. They already know the gas pump model, and would only tolerate an EV if it works the same. I.e. they expect to drive to an electric fuel station, where there is a big box like a gas pump. It has a hose and a connector that plugs into their car, just like a gas pump, that will charge their car in about the same amount of time it would take to fill a gas tank. And, they want it to be *cheaper*, or they'll never change away from gas. Never mind that this is a flawed model, that doesn't apply to EVs. Never mind that you can charge at home for a tiny fraction of the cost, without having to go *anywhere* to refuel. There are many in the auto and oil industries that are only too happy to perpetuate the gas-pump stereotype. Think about this... Suppose someone *does* invent a fast charge setup that refuels an EV in the same time it takes to fill a gas tank. Instead of $50 for a tank of gas, consumers will be overjoyed to pay only $25 for an equivalent recharge. HALF THE PRICE! Woo hoo! And, the charging station owner only paid $2.50 for that electricity. He makes a 90% profit. YAHOO! The oil and auto industry would fall all over itself to install this new fast-charge scheme in every gas station in America as quickly as possible. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY! But it only works if you can prevent charging at home. So they have to lobby for laws to make it impractical or impossible to charge at home (it's dangerous, it's cheating the government out of road taxes, it will destroy the integrity of our electric grid, special permits, license fees,, patented technology that you can' use, etc.) *THIS* is why people are obsessed with fast charging. They see it as a wonderful scheme to create a new EV charging monopoly and make a fortune! EVs are, in general, a poor purchasing decision anyway. Mine cost me $20,000 more than equivalent gas cars and I've spent $2000 on charge stations at my house. This saves me roughly $2300 in gasoline purchases each year but adds about $800 to my electric bill. But driving electric isn't about the economics or the convenience. For me it's about the environment and where I choose to send my money. The present auto company EVs *are* more expensive than ICEs. It is not in their interest to make cheaper ones -- it would sabotage their own ICE business. If we are to get cheaper simpler EVs, they will come from companies *outside* the traditional auto industry. -- Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. -- Albert Einstein -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
A few vehicle manufacturers did offer, and I think a few still do offer a car or truck that runs on compressed natural gas. You can fill at a public station or have a small cng compressor installed in your garage if you have natural gas at your home and a minimum supply flow. Consumers with a cng compressor at home and a cng burning car or truck will understand the transition to a battery electric vehicle and filling up with energy at home in the garage because that is what they have become used to. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 12:04 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes Rick Beebe via EV wrote: I have two EVs and a PHEV so I'm well aware of the advantages of starting out with a full vehicle every morning. But there are millions of people who live in places where they can't plug their car in and I bet some number of them are wishing they could get away from gas. Most people are fearful of change. They already know the gas pump model, and would only tolerate an EV if it works the same. I.e. they expect to drive to an electric fuel station, where there is a big box like a gas pump. It has a hose and a connector that plugs into their car, just like a gas pump, that will charge their car in about the same amount of time it would take to fill a gas tank. And, they want it to be *cheaper*, or they'll never change away from gas. rest of message cut ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
On 14 Oct 2014 at 17:06, David Nelson via EV wrote: So much misinformation people have. Li-batteries already last more than 2 years, they already charge in under 4 hours if the infrastructure can handle it, and why do I need a 5 minute recharge when my car is going to be parked for over 8 hours while I sleep? Most batteries can handle a 70-80% charge about as quickly as they can discharge. Thus a battery that can handle 20C can charge in 5 minutes. A123 claims their cells can handle 35C. So, where's the breakthrough? Maybe here : the NTU researchers claim a life of 10 000 cycles. That sounds impressive, but is it necessary? If you allow for a range of 100 miles per charge, such a battery should theoretically last 1 000 000 miles. That's probably about 5 times the typical vehicle's lifetime. Who thinks that automakers actually want to build a car that lasts that long? Remember, too, that a smart man once classified all falsehoods as lies, damn lies, and battery specifications. Or something like that. It's somewhat OT and I suppose a little pedantic, but I chuckled at this paragraph in the ECN article: Naturally found in a spherical shape, NTU Singapore developed a simple method to turn titanium dioxide particles into tiny nanotubes that are a thousand times thinner than the diameter of a human hair. There are plenty of square and rectangular universities, and probably even a few round ones. However, I think that Nanyang Technological University is the first spherical shape university I've heard of. The mind boggles. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
On Oct 15, 2014, at 10:04 AM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: As for cellphones the real limiter on how fast you can recharge tends to be the connector, cables and power supply. Cars, too. 10 kWh / minute is 600 kilowatts, a most impressive power transfer rate. That's going to be a significant fraction of your neighborhood's total average power draw -- all for just one car to charge at that rate (though, of course, only for a few minutes). If that's going to be how we charge our cars, we're going to need at least twice as many batteries: one set in the car as today, and then another set at the charging station that slow-charges at whatever rate its grid tie can handle -- and that then fast-discharges into the car's battery. Charging stations will still have massive underground storage, only full of batteries rather than gasoline tanks. ...though the electric utilities might actually find something like that desirable. The same stations that charge cars could provide peaking power back to the grid. At least today it'd be a very expensive capital investment, but the operational costs would be trivial to today's peaking generators. If the companies think they can make an offsetting profit by becoming the new gas stations, it could well happen. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141015/91f62ba8/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
I can't see why I need a high rate of charge at home. If you are economizing you never build for peak demand. However, many cars on the grid charging slowly still requires some sort of compensatory, mitigating, constructing effort. This is not how batteries for cars will be charged at home. Maybe at filling stations. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:27 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 10:04 AM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: As for cellphones the real limiter on how fast you can recharge tends to be the connector, cables and power supply. Cars, too. 10 kWh / minute is 600 kilowatts, a most impressive power transfer rate. That's going to be a significant fraction of your neighborhood's total average power draw -- all for just one car to charge at that rate (though, of course, only for a few minutes). If that's going to be how we charge our cars, we're going to need at least twice as many batteries: one set in the car as today, and then another set at the charging station that slow-charges at whatever rate its grid tie can handle -- and that then fast-discharges into the car's battery. Charging stations will still have massive underground storage, only full of batteries rather than gasoline tanks. ...though the electric utilities might actually find something like that desirable. The same stations that charge cars could provide peaking power back to the grid. At least today it'd be a very expensive capital investment, but the operational costs would be trivial to today's peaking generators. If the companies think they can make an offsetting profit by becoming the new gas stations, it could well happen. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141015/91f62ba8/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141015/d56f8a14/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
The number of people buying the high end Tesla cars is and will be exceedingly small and no concern for the grid operators. The number of people who will buy a second probably much larger pack for their home (so they can still charge after a number of cloudy days) will also be very small. So that leaves everyman charging slow in the least expensive way - probably from the grid, and spending those dollars saved on more obvious needs than fast charging. Of course at some point battery packs will be come cheap enough that the lowly like myself may consider it. This is not near term however. Solar at home is good if you have nice treeless southern exposure and some acreage in that direction. A lot of people will be plugging in some other way, charging stations make sense for them. I expect to see big solar arrays and batteries for fast charging at a price, but not a very high price. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 3:04 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: I can't see why I need a high rate of charge at home. Need? Obviously not. Want? Who wouldn't? The question is what it'd cost. You can be sure Elon himself will have such a station in his own personal garage. If it only costs ten grand or so, many if not most of those who buy high-end Teslas and comparable future luxury cars will have it as well. If the price comes down to the range of today's chargers, they'll be standard equipment. If you are economizing you never build for peak demand. Again, it depends on the application. Grid operators are notorious penny pinchers, but they build for significantly more than typical annual peak demand. Bridge builders, if they're not criminally incompetent, also build for significantly more than peak demand. Home EV charging, on the other hand, is going to be governed more by absolute cost than the desire to charge in the time it takes to get the kids changed out of school clothes and into the soccer uniform. However, many cars on the grid charging slowly still requires some sort of compensatory, mitigating, constructing effort. Fortunately, that's already happening by itself -- though it's yet to be seen if the trend will continue. Specifically, those with EVs are significantly more likely to also have solar generation on their rooftops in excess of the capacity needed just for the car. Many don't just offset the car's usage, but the entire household plus car. The math works out to roughly as much non-vehicular household energy consumption as vehicular, so those people have already built the capacity for their neighbors to get an EV without going solar and a net wash for the grid. Hopefully, though, of course, everybody will go solar, regardless of vehicle ownership b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141015/f0632575/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141015/0a5e7745/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
On 10/15/2014 03:04 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: On Oct 15, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: I can't see why I need a high rate of charge at home. Need? Obviously not. Want? Who wouldn't? I don't need or want it. But if I lived in an apartment building where I couldn't plug my car it, being able to zap it full on the way to or from work might be the deciding factor in whether I buy one or not. --Rick ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
I can't see why I need a high rate of charge at home. I don't need or want it. But if I lived in an apartment building where I couldn't plug my car it, being able to zap it full on the way to or from work might be the deciding factor in whether I buy one or not. Every single day for the rest of your life? I don't think so. EV's charge conveniently *every day* while parked. (and are full at the start of every commute or local trip)... Any purchase of an EV with the idea of gas-tank weekly fill-ups which have to be done while at the charger and waiting (like a gas pump) is a poor value of an EV for the task and a poor purchasing decision. IMHO... Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
www.ecnmag.com/news/2014/10/batteries-can-be-recharged-70-percent-just-2-minutes Len Moskowitz ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Batteries that can be recharged to 70 percent in just 2 minutes
So much misinformation people have. Li-batteries already last more than 2 years, they already charge in under 4 hours if the infrastructure can handle it, and why do I need a 5 minute recharge when my car is going to be parked for over 8 hours while I sleep? Don't get me wrong, this is a great discovery, but it isn't going to significantly change the way a daily driver gets charged. On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 1:10 PM, Len Moskowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: www.ecnmag.com/news/2014/10/batteries-can-be-recharged-70-percent-just-2-minutes Len Moskowitz ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
