Re: What must the perceiver be like?

On Monday, September 10, 2012 7:00:22 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > > Hi Craig Weinberg > > > I think that the perceiver must be a lot like the creator in > terms of its not being an endless regress of homunculi. > There has to be either a stopping point or an entrance to > the nonphysical fr

Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

On 9/11/2012 12:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: John, Oh I agree, that statistics like that aren't reliable in a scientific sense, but I think it is worthwhile to put it in perspective. Having to take our shoes off in airports forever for no real reason is not a rational response to the actual t

Re: Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

John, Oh I agree, that statistics like that aren't reliable in a scientific sense, but I think it is worthwhile to put it in perspective. Having to take our shoes off in airports forever for no real reason is not a rational response to the actual threat of terrorism. Craig On Sunday, Septemb

Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

Hi Roger, It's ok not to be obsessed with cleaning up the environment, but why be intolerant of people who are? Same with people who spend a lot of time talking in public about issues of racial discrimination. If you are going to speak and act on behalf of millions of people who are not speakin

Re: victims of faith

On 9/10/2012 12:50 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: This paper of an evolutionist scientific denounces the mytification of Darwin, the spread of false claims that enhance his figure and even the creation of a physical temple around these myths. http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/ep055269.pd

Re: victims of faith

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > that is not fair. 99.99 believed in God or in gods They differ in the > details. Atheists are a minority. > > In a deeper sense, atheists do believe in gods. problably modern > atheism is one the most basic, new and thus, primitive religi

Re: Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 07:45:04AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Russell Standish > > My experience of meditation or even sleeping is that as you go into > that state, in which consciousness diminishes, > (subjective) time passes faster and faster, until at the "deepest" level, > time passes

Re: Re: The poverty of computers

John C, you have been urged: *"If you are an atheist, prove that God does not exist."* *I am not an atheist, an atheist needs a god dy deny, the concept does not fit into my worldview, but that is besode the point. What is more relevant:* years ago on another list I received a similar outburst -

Re: victims of faith

Having obfuscated the meaning of "God" as much as possible, let's see if we can also fuzz-up the meaning of "believe in" - because, above all, we really really want to be able to say "We believe in God." and we want to be able to say "You really believe in God." and if you think you don't it is

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

On 9/10/2012 7:57 AM, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:08, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi)

Re: victims of faith

On 9/10/2012 12:50 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: This paper of an evolutionist scientific denounces the mytification of Darwin, the spread of false claims that enhance his figure and even the creation of a physical temple around these myths. http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/ep055269.pd

Re: The poverty of computers

On 9/10/2012 12:45 PM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote: > A better question to John would be: explain where consciousness and universes come from Paraphrasing Mark Twain: Drawing on my fine command of the English language I stood

Re: The poverty of computers

On 9/10/2012 12:30 PM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012, Craig Weinberg > wrote: > What would you say is the reason for: 1. The anthropological universality of spiritual concepts The fear of death. > 2. That religious-philosophical development i

Re: Re: victims of faith

This paper of an evolutionist scientific denounces the mytification of Darwin, the spread of false claims that enhance his figure and even the creation of a physical temple around these myths. http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/ep055269.pdf Victims of faith are we all, and also beneficia

Re: The poverty of computers

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal wrote: > A better question to John would be: explain where consciousness and > universes come from > Paraphrasing Mark Twain: Drawing on my fine command of the English language I stood up, looked him straight in the eye, and said "I don't know".** > > Someon

Re: The poverty of computers

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012, Craig Weinberg wrote: > What would you say is the reason for: > 1. The anthropological universality of spiritual concepts > The fear of death. > 2. That religious-philosophical development is universal pre-requisite > for the emergence of science, ie. science never emerges

Re: Re: victims of faith

not at all. My answer is to the John's comment, not to yours 2012/9/10 Roger Clough : > Hi Alberto G. Corona > > So you may have the blind faith that there is no God. > And attack those that do. > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 9/10/2012 > Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have

Re: victims of faith

that is not fair. 99.99 believed in God or in gods They differ in the details. Atheists are a minority. In a deeper sense, atheists do believe in gods. problably modern atheism is one the most basic, new and thus, primitive religions, as I will show here: Seeing the development of religion whe

Re: The poverty of computers

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal wrote: >> I think "God is a white man with a beard" is a more intelligent >> statement than "God is truth" because its actually saying something, it's >> something that happens not to be true but at least its saying something, >> while "God is truth" is not say

Re: My limited support for the atheists

On 10 Sep 2012, at 19:22, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou I believe that the real reason that atheists attack religion is that they fear its possible political power to condemn you and order your obedience. I think t

Re: My limited support for the atheists

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stathis Papaioannou > > I believe that the real reason that atheists attack religion is > that they fear its possible political power to condemn you and order your > obedience. I think they have a somewhat reasonable case, > so I advocate

Re: The poverty of computers

Roger, I agree with John here. Except that his point is more agnostic than atheist. A better question to John would be: explain where consciousness and universes come from, or what is your big picture. John is mute on this, but his stucking on step 3 illustrates that he might be a relig

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

On 10 Sep 2012, at 16:39, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Sep 2012, at 15:47, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: even though the paper actually doesn't even begin to adress the question. Which question? The paper mainly just formulate a question, shows how comp makes

Re: Re: The poverty of computers

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 Roger Clough wrote: > If you are an atheist, prove that God does not exist. If you can't, you > are a hypocrite in attacking those that do believe that God exists. You > haven't a leg to stand on. > A fool disbelieves only in the things he can prove not to exist, the wise

Re: The poverty of computers

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 Jason Resch wrote: > I think we agree that closed mindedness, in all its forms, in something > we to be avoided. It's good to be open minded, but not so open minded all your brains fall out. I believe in moderation in everything, including moderation. > > the devout athei

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

On 10 Sep 2012, at 16:57, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:08, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (sugge

Re: The poverty of computers

On 09 Sep 2012, at 19:12, Jason Resch wrote: Hinduism: "By understanding the Self, all this universe is known." — Upanishads Can hardly be more close to comp, where indeed physics is a branch of machine self-reference logic. Yoga: "God dwells within you as you." That is the eastern

Re: The sin of NDAA

On 09 Sep 2012, at 13:08, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal My feeling at the moment is to compare the sin of NDAA with that of collateral damage, and war itself, and fall back on the doctrine of just warfare. I would have still be open to that idea one year ago. But Obama did not kept

Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode

On 10 Sep 2012, at 06:28, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of "being conscious in a completely atemporal mode" was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environme

Re: The poverty of computers

On 09 Sep 2012, at 23:06, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > Logos obviously is not a white man with a beard I think "God is a white man with a beard" is a more intelligent statement than "God is truth" because its actually saying something, it's

Re: fairness and sustainability

Hi Roger, On 09 Sep 2012, at 12:48, Roger Clough wrote: Marchal Hi Bruno By sin or evil I mean intentionally diminishing the life of others. OK. If you doubt that that is not the way of the world, you must not watch the news. I never doubt that, alas. Evil is not an abstract word,

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

On 9/10/2012 11:40 AM, benjayk wrote: No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence of the Church Turing thesis. The particular machine at the lowest level has no bearing (from the program's perspective). If that is true, we can show that CT must be false, because we *can* d

Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode

On Sep 10, 2012, at 6:23 AM, "Stephen P. King" wrote: On 9/10/2012 1:29 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Stephen, I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her visual sense is devoid of movem

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012/9/10 benjayk > > > > > No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence of the > > > Church > > > Turing thesis. The particular machine at the lowest level has no > > bearing > > > (from the program's perspective). > > If that is true, we can show that CT must be false, because

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

> > No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence of the > > Church > > Turing thesis. The particular machine at the lowest level has no > bearing > > (from the program's perspective). > If that is true, we can show that CT must be false, because we *can* > define > a "meta-progr

Re: The poverty of computers

John, What would you say is the reason for: 1. The anthropological universality of spiritual concepts 2. That religious-philosophical development is universal pre-requisite for the emergence of science, ie. science never emerges ab initio from a culture devoid of a history of religious thought.

Physicist Derives Laws of Thermodynamics For Life Itself

FYI -- Forwarded message -- From: richard ruquist Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 11:10 AM Subject: Fw: the physics arXiv blog To: "yann...@gmail.com" - Forwarded Message - *From:* Technology Review Feed - arXiv blog *To:* yann...@yahoo.com *Sent:* Monday, September 10, 2

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 08 Sep 2012, at 15:47, benjayk wrote: > >> >> >> Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> even though the paper actually doesn't even begin to adress the question. >>> >>> Which question? The paper mainly just formulate a question, shows how >>> comp makes it possible t

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:08, benjayk wrote: > >> >> >> Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: >>> Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: > >> Quantum effects beyond indivi

Re: Re: The All

Hi Stephen P. King Robots would respond to an image as they are programmed to respond. Like mindless puppets. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." - Receiving the following content --

Re: Re: Where do life's choices come from ?

Hi Stephen P. King God is not in time or space and so knows all of eternity and all actions. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." - Receiving the following content - From: Step

My limited support for the atheists

Hi Stathis Papaioannou I believe that the real reason that atheists attack religion is that they fear its possible political power to condemn you and order your obedience. I think they have a somewhat reasonable case, so I advocate legal separation of church and state, although I don't personally

Re: Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode

Hi Russell Standish My experience of meditation or even sleeping is that as you go into that state, in which consciousness diminishes, (subjective) time passes faster and faster, until at the "deepest" level, time passes instantly. Instant passage of time might be construed by some to be atem

Re: Re: Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy My objection to political correctness is based on freedom of speech and particularly those who would forbid debate or criticism because the topic or subject is "politically incorrect." Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God

Re: Re: The poverty of computers

Hi John Clark If you are an atheist, prove that God does not exist. If you can't, you are a hypocrite in attacking those that do believe that God exists. You haven't a leg to stand on. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him s

Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode

On 9/10/2012 1:29 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Stephen, I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her visual sense is devoid of movement. She experiences only static frames: One patient, LM, de

Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

Hi Craig Weinberg Not that I am against cleaning up the environment, but I am not obsessed with the idea. Integrating with Nature is also a main principle of the Communist Manifesto. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him s

Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

Hi Craig Weinberg Liberals aren't necessarily racists, but most are those obsessed with racial issues, and a few even worse, the race-baiters. If I criticise the president, I am called a racist. Not true by a long shot. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are good examples of race-baiters. Roger

Re: Re: The All

Hi Evgenii, In the mirror example, the res extensa would be that part of the phenomenon that is in spacetime (the brain, the physical part, which is extended) and the res cogitans wojld be that part that is nonphysical, being outside of spacetime (the mind, being inextended). My own suggestion

What must the perceiver be like?

Hi Craig Weinberg I think that the perceiver must be a lot like the creator in terms of its not being an endless regress of homunculi. There has to be either a stopping point or an entrance to the nonphysical from the physical, the unextended from the extended. Platonia's All is such an entit

Re: Re: Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

Hi Craig Weinberg Thanks. Then I don't support the John Birch Society. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: eve

Re: Re: victims of faith

Hi Alberto G. Corona So you may have the blind faith that there is no God. And attack those that do. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." - Receiving the following content - From

Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:29:18AM -0500, Jason Resch wrote: > Stephen, > > I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or > not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her > visual sense is devoid of movement. She experiences only static fram