Re: STEP 3

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 3:22 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On 7/21/2019 9:12 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 9:55 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 21 Jul 2019, at 08:11, Dan Sonik wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Or, if you do

Re: STEP 3

On 7/21/2019 9:12 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 9:55 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: On 21 Jul 2019, at 08:11, Dan Sonik mailto:danialso...@gmail.com>> wrote: Or, if you don’t die, the only way to avoid the indeterminacy is b

Re: subjective experience

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:16 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 19 Jul 2019, at 22:47, Dan Sonik wrote: > >I think the main "leap of faith" that you make (and many others simply > can't, because it >appears absurd) is somehow thinking that the completed > computations are already "out >there,” > > If

Re: STEP 3

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 9:55 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 21 Jul 2019, at 08:11, Dan Sonik wrote: > > > > > > >> Or, if you don’t die, the only way to avoid the indeterminacy is by >> claiming that you will feel to be at both city at once, but that will need >> some telepathy hardly compatible

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 6:16:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/21/2019 4:06 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent

Re: subjective experience

On 7/21/2019 4:06 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I di

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> I didn't say there was. I said *youse-self* sees Mosco

Re: subjective experience

On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I didn't say there was.  I said */youse-self/* sees Moscow and Washington.  "Youse-self" is second person /plural/.

Re: subjective experience

Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 20:18, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > > > On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > I didn't say there was. I said *youse-self* sees Moscow and Washington. >> "Youse-self" is second person *plural*. >> >> Brent >>

Re: Observation versus assumption

On 7/21/2019 6:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jul 2019, at 22:08, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 7/20/2019 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Jul 2019, at 00:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 7/19/2019 4:49

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 2:48:49 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 3:14 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > A "machine" associated with the lambda calculus is the SECD machine >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECD_machine >>

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 3:14 PM Philip Thrift wrote: A "machine" associated with the lambda calculus is the SECD machine > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECD_machine > > The machine was the first to be specifically designed to eval

Re: subjective experience

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:18:16 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > I didn't say there was. I said *youse-self* sees Moscow and Washington. >> "Youse-self" is second person *plural*. >> >> Brent >> > > Ok but no need of youse, the question is cle

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 10:18:18 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 8:34 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> According to my dictionary a "entity" is an independent thing with >>> distinct properties, in this case one of those properties is it can be >>> implemented PHY

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 9:59:12 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 8:30 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > In general >> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism/ >> *Platonism is the view that there exist such things as abstract objects.* > > > That is an idiotic and mean

Re: subjective experience

On 7/21/2019 1:09 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I didn't say there was.  I said */youse-self/* sees Moscow and Washington.  "Youse-self" is second person /plural/. Brent Ok but no need of youse, the question is clear without it, if you accept frequency interpretation of probabilit

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 9:22 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *>>> The Turing Machine is not the simplest implementation of a physical >> computer, * >> > > >> You haven't told me about a simpler on > > > *I did. (The combinators),* > No you did not. You showed me something simpler but it was not somet

Observation versus assumption

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:31 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: *> (and I infer “to support genuine consciousness”).* And every time in the history of the world a change in consciousness resulted in a change in the physical state of a brain and a change in the physical state of a brain resulted in a chan

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 9:29 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> LISP machines were just Turing Machines > > > > *Nonsense.* > OK let me see if I've got this right: you think it is nonsense to believe that a Turing Machine could simulate a computer that became obsolete more than 30 years ago. Is that wha

Re: STEP 3

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 1:55:52 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 21 Jul 2019, at 08:11, Dan Sonik > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Or, if you don’t die, the only way to avoid the indeterminacy is by >> claiming that you will feel to be at both city at once, but that will need >> som

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 8:46 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > >There is nothing abstract or immaterial about a paper tape and a >> read/write head, but everything is abstract and immaterial about a >> sequence of ASCII characters in Lambda calculus. > > > *> Or about Turing quintuplets.* > Turing quint

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 8:39 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > No it does not work because machines have inputs and outputs but "lambda >> expressions" have neither > > > > What??? > No it does not work because machines have inputs and outputs but "lambda expressions" have neither John K Clark -- You

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 8:34 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> According to my dictionary a "entity" is an independent thing with >> distinct properties, in this case one of those properties is it can be >> implemented PHYSICALLY, a property that a sequence of squiggles in Lambda >> Calculus does not ha

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 8:30 AM Philip Thrift wrote: In general > https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism/ > *Platonism is the view that there exist such things as abstract objects.* That is an idiotic and meaningless definition, which is not at all unusual in philosophy. Meaning needs con

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 18 Jul 2019, at 22:08, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:31 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> A Turing Machine is compatible with both pure mathematics and pure > >> physics, but Lambda Calculus is compatible only with pure mathematics. > > Why?

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 16:40, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 5:21 AM Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > >> X is a Turing Machine if and only if for any given input to X there exists > >> a Turing Machine that will produce the same output as X does with the

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 21 Jul 2019, at 13:48, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 2:14 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >> If matter (nouns) exist then something other than matter must exist too, > >> namely the relationship between matter (adjectives). I think both John >

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 7:34:51 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 20 Jul 2019, at 13:55, John Clark > > wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 6:33 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > *A Turing machine is a mathematical entity,* > > > According to my dictionary a "entity" is an independent th

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 22:08, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/20/2019 1:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 20 Jul 2019, at 00:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/19/2019 4:49 AM, Telm

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 21:52, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 7/20/2019 1:32 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, at 22:04, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: >>> >>> On 7/19/2019 4:49 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I share their perplexity. The i

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 15:22, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 4:54 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> Where is the physical implementation? JavaScript needs hardware, without > >> that it's just a sequence of squiggles that can't calculate 2+2. A Turing >

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 14:55, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 4:18 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> X is a Turing Machine if and only if for any given input to X there exists > >> a Turing Machine that will produce the same output as X does with the same

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 13:55, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 6:33 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > A Turing machine is a mathematical entity, > > According to my dictionary a "entity" is an independent thing with distinct > properties, in this case o

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 7:15:31 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 7:58 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> Sounds like you are a proponent of noun-adjective dualism!* >> *(Just another version of a material-immaterial dualism.)* >> > > Maybe but I really don't know. To t

Re: Observation versus assumption

> On 20 Jul 2019, at 13:26, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 2:58:02 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 19 Jul 2019, at 14:40, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 6:28:10 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> ... >> >> By assumi

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 7:58 AM Philip Thrift wrote: *> Sounds like you are a proponent of noun-adjective dualism!* > *(Just another version of a material-immaterial dualism.)* > Maybe but I really don't know. To tell the truth I haven't been keeping up to date on the latest philosophical baffle

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 6:49:25 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 2:14 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >> If matter (nouns) exist then something other than matter must exist >>> too, namely the relationship between matter (adjectives). I think both John >>> Clark and Ph

STEP 3

> On 21 Jul 2019, at 08:11, Dan Sonik wrote: > > > > > Or, if you don’t die, the only way to avoid the indeterminacy is by claiming > that you will feel to be at both city at once, but that will need some > telepathy hardly compatible with the idea that the level of substitution was >

Re: Observation versus assumption

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 2:14 PM Philip Thrift wrote: >> If matter (nouns) exist then something other than matter must exist too, >> namely the relationship between matter (adjectives). I think both John >> Clark and Philip Thrift are adjectives not nouns despite what our grade >> school teachers

Re: subjective experience

Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > > > On 7/20/2019 11:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 08:12, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> a écrit : > >> >> >> O