Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
Hi meekerdb Picking and choosing can sometimes be incorrect. When you try to find the meaning of a verse from the Bible, ideally you should find the meaning from the Bible as a whole. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/8/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-07, 17:56:48 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/7/2013 4:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb There are some errors in fact in the Bible, but IMHO it is inerrant with regard to faith and practice. By inerrant, I mean that it is completely consistent along those lines. You have to take it as a whole. By which you really mean that one must use their own moral sense to pick and choose a reasonable subset of ethical advice, which they can then claim that God commands. Brent The Israelites were all waiting anxiously at the foot of the mountain, knowing that Moses had had a tough day negotiating with God over the Commandments. Finally a tired Moses came into sight. I've got some good news and some bad news, folks, he said. The good news is that I got Him down to ten. The bad news is that adultery's still banned. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
Hi meekerdb There are some errors in fact in the Bible, but IMHO it is inerrant with regard to faith and practice. By inerrant, I mean that it is completely consistent along those lines. You have to take it as a whole. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/7/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-06, 16:21:42 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/6/2013 12:57 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb Sorry, I obviously missed the point of your quote from Matthew. What is your point ? That the Christian Bible, and by extension fundamentalist Christianity, is a cartoonish world view which no thinking person would take as a guide for morality or ethics. Brent [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/6/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-06, 14:15:41 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/6/2013 5:24 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb I'm sorry that Christ does not measure up to your liberal standards. I should have thought maintaining love and respect for one's family would be a conservative family value. Brent Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/7/2013 4:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb There are some errors in fact in the Bible, but IMHO it is inerrant with regard to faith and practice. By inerrant, I mean that it is completely consistent along those lines. You have to take it as a whole. By which you really mean that one must use their own moral sense to pick and choose a reasonable subset of ethical advice, which they can then claim that God commands. Brent The Israelites were all waiting anxiously at the foot of the mountain, knowing that Moses had had a tough day negotiating with God over the Commandments. Finally a tired Moses came into sight. I've got some good news and some bad news, folks, he said. The good news is that I got Him down to ten. The bad news is that adultery's still banned. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
Hi meekerdb I'm sorry that Christ does not measure up to your liberal standards. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/6/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-05, 15:32:05 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/5/2013 6:01 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb You say, It's that cartoon known as the Christian Bible. Brent For Christians, it's far more important to believe in a god than to determine the accuracy of the hypothesis. That's why they had only two significant publications, and the most recent one is 2000 years old. --- Ludwig Krippahl, biologist Those are baseless insults, typical of liberalspeak. If they have a basis,let's hear it. Otherwise you're just spouting baseless prejudices. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. ... 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; Brent The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites. --- Thomas Jefferson -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/6/2013 12:57 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb Sorry, I obviously missed the point of your quote from Matthew. What is your point ? That the Christian Bible, and by extension fundamentalist Christianity, is a cartoonish world view which no thinking person would take as a guide for morality or ethics. Brent [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/6/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-06, 14:15:41 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/6/2013 5:24 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb I'm sorry that Christ does not measure up to your liberal standards. I should have thought maintaining love and respect for one's family would be a conservative family value. Brent Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 03 Jan 2013, at 19:26, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Jan 2013, at 20:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. So there is no heaven. There might be a heaven, but the price is that there might be a hell too, and a complex Mandelbrot like boundary between. Bruno Looking at the plight of the average person on earth, I conclude that hell is on earth. Therefore by your thinking there might just be a heaven. Richard OK. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/5/2013 6:01 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb You say, It's that cartoon known as the Christian Bible. Brent For Christians, it's far more important to believe in a god than to determine the accuracy of the hypothesis. That's why they had only two significant publications, and the most recent one is 2000 years old. --- Ludwig Krippahl, biologist Those are baseless insults, typical of liberalspeak. If they have a basis,let's hear it. Otherwise you're just spouting baseless prejudices. Matthew 10:34 *Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. * ... 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, *Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels*: 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, *Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment*: but the righteous into life eternal. Luke 19:27 *But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. * Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when *the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord*, and from the glory of his power; Brent The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites. --- Thomas Jefferson -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/3/2013 11:58 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerb, Heaven is not part of contingent creation, so your statement that there is no heaven is illogical or irrelevant. It was an inference from your statement, This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. After the second coming and we're all in heaven or hell aren't things supposed to good everywhere. The virtuous are comfortably enjoying the torments of the damned. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/4/2013 3:18 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2013 11:58 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerb, Heaven is not part of contingent creation, so your statement that there is no heaven is illogical or irrelevant. It was an inference from your statement, This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. After the second coming and we're all in heaven or hell aren't things supposed to good everywhere. The virtuous are comfortably enjoying the torments of the damned. Brent Dear Brent, I have no idea what religion you might be referring to that has such notions other than a poorly draw cartoon of a straw man ! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/4/2013 1:23 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/4/2013 3:18 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/3/2013 11:58 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerb, Heaven is not part of contingent creation, so your statement that there is no heaven is illogical or irrelevant. It was an inference from your statement, This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. After the second coming and we're all in heaven or hell aren't things supposed to good everywhere. The virtuous are comfortably enjoying the torments of the damned. Brent Dear Brent, I have no idea what religion you might be referring to that has such notions other than a poorly draw cartoon of a straw man ! It's that cartoon known as the Christian Bible. Brent For Christians, it's far more important to believe in a god than to determine the accuracy of the hypothesis. That's why they had only two significant publications, and the most recent one is 2000 years old. --- Ludwig Krippahl, biologist -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
Hi Stephen P. King 1) I dobn't know what you mean by subjective. Things happen. Crap happens. 2). You seem to have some incorrect ideas about Leibniz. Leibniz in no way pretended that he created a perfect system. The world is far from perfect. All L did suggest is that God did the best job he could, considering the constraints of contingency. Consider volcanoes and the tectonic plates, the sometimes evil tendencies of man. And our perceptions, for excample, are distorted. Our hearts are distorted. And bad things can happen, there's nothing to prevent in a contingent world . [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/3/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-02, 13:37:05 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/2/2013 8:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: I forgot add that that's why Leibniz called this The best of all possible Worlds. Why bad things happen to good people--Leibniz's Theodicy As to tornadoes, there are various views, usually part of Theodicies. Here's the view I prefer, that of my mentor, Leibniz, explained in his Theodicy, which Voltaire took up in his unfair and totally misinformed criticism, the novel Candide. According to Leibniz, there are two forms of being, that belonging to perfect, timeless, necessary reason, assigned to Heaven or Platonia, and that of contingent, time-dependent and therefore undependable reason and perfection (that down here, on earth). Scientific theory deals with the former, where time is reversible, and scientific experimentation, with the latter, done down here, in the world, where time is not reversible. Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. Thus evil and catastrophes are probabilistic. Leibniz's theodicy ior justification for God is that God, being good, does the best that he can with the imperfect, partly evuil world he has to work with. That is why pray for God to deliver us from evil in the Lord's prayer. But we also say thy will be done. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/2/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- Dear Roger, Ultimately, all such measures are subjective, being the result of some arbitrary cut off here and boundary condition there. Most of all, the effects of the finiteness of our condition cannot ever be underestimated. One thing that Leibniz failed to comprehend is the cost of the perfect system that he attempted to construct. Voltair saw it but only as a weakness to lampoon Leibniz' with and not to correct, as he and the rest of the classicists where loath to give up the Assumption of the voyeuristic observer that can somehow see and measure all things. Hidden in their thinking was a need to morally justify the inequality between men that their system supported. We live in a world of costs and scarcity. There is no such thing as a free lunch, but if we work hard we can make a cheaper lunch. ;-) -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/3/2013 9:30 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King 1) I dobn't know what you mean by subjective. Things happen. Crap happens. 2). You seem to have some incorrect ideas about Leibniz. Leibniz in no way pretended that he created a perfect system. The world is far from perfect. All L did suggest is that God did the best job he could, considering the constraints of contingency. Consider volcanoes and the tectonic plates, the sometimes evil tendencies of man. And our perceptions, for excample, are distorted. Our hearts are distorted. And bad things can happen, there's nothing to prevent in a contingent world . Hi Roger, The entire idea that our lives are in the hands of some ultimate conscious and controlling agent is a relic of the days of monarchies. The ability to think for ourselves, make choices and learn form consequences is better, IMHO. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] mailto:rclo...@verizon.net] 1/3/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net *Receiver:* everything-list mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com *Time:* 2013-01-02, 13:37:05 *Subject:* Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/2/2013 8:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: I forgot add that that's why Leibniz called this The best of all possible Worlds. Why bad things happen to good people--Leibniz's Theodicy As to tornadoes, there are various views, usually part of Theodicies. Here's the view I prefer, that of my mentor, Leibniz, explained in his Theodicy, which Voltaire took up in his unfair and totally misinformed criticism, the novel Candide. According to Leibniz, there are two forms of being, that belonging to perfect, timeless, necessary reason, assigned to Heaven or Platonia, and that of contingent, time-dependent and therefore undependable reason and perfection (that down here, on earth). Scientific theory deals with the former, where time is reversible, and scientific experimentation, with the latter, done down here, in the world, where time is not reversible. Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. Thus evil and catastrophes are probabilistic. Leibniz's theodicy ior justification for God is that God, being good, does the best that he can with the imperfect, partly evuil world he has to work with. That is why pray for God to deliver us from evil in the Lord's prayer. But we also say thy will be done. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net mailto:%20rclo...@verizon.net] 1/2/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- Dear Roger, Ultimately, all such measures are subjective, being the result of some arbitrary cut off here and boundary condition there. Most of all, the effects of the finiteness of our condition cannot ever be underestimated. One thing that Leibniz failed to comprehend is the cost of the perfect system that he attempted to construct. Voltair saw it but only as a weakness to lampoon Leibniz' with and not to correct, as he and the rest of the classicists where loath to give up the Assumption of the voyeuristic observer that can somehow see and measure all things. Hidden in their thinking was a need to morally justify the inequality between men that their system supported. We live in a world of costs and scarcity. There is no such thing as a free lunch, but if we work hard we can make a cheaper lunch. ;-) -- Onward! Stephen - -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
Hi Stephen P. King I suppose that you're referring to the cpre-established perfect harmony, which makes it seem as if everything we do is determined (by God). IMHO that only means that God knows what we will do, not make the decision for us. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/3/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-03, 09:49:53 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/3/2013 9:30 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King 1) I dobn't know what you mean by subjective. Things happen. Crap happens. 2). You seem to have some incorrect ideas about Leibniz. Leibniz in no way pretended that he created a perfect system. The world is far from perfect. All L did suggest is that God did the best job he could, considering the constraints of contingency. Consider volcanoes and the tectonic plates, the sometimes evil tendencies of man. And our perceptions, for excample, are distorted. Our hearts are distorted. And bad things can happen, there's nothing to prevent in a contingent world . Hi Roger, The entire idea that our lives are in the hands of some ultimate conscious and controlling agent is a relic of the days of monarchies. The ability to think for ourselves, make choices and learn form consequences is better, IMHO. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/3/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-02, 13:37:05 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/2/2013 8:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: I forgot add that that's why Leibniz called this The best of all possible Worlds. Why bad things happen to good people--Leibniz's Theodicy As to tornadoes, there are various views, usually part of Theodicies. Here's the view I prefer, that of my mentor, Leibniz, explained in his Theodicy, which Voltaire took up in his unfair and totally misinformed criticism, the novel Candide. According to Leibniz, there are two forms of being, that belonging to perfect, timeless, necessary reason, assigned to Heaven or Platonia, and that of contingent, time-dependent and therefore undependable reason and perfection (that down here, on earth). Scientific theory deals with the former, where time is reversible, and scientific experimentation, with the latter, done down here, in the world, where time is not reversible. Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. Thus evil and catastrophes are probabilistic. Leibniz's theodicy ior justification for God is that God, being good, does the best that he can with the imperfect, partly evuil world he has to work with. That is why pray for God to deliver us from evil in the Lord's prayer. But we also say thy will be done. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/2/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- Dear Roger, Ultimately, all such measures are subjective, being the result of some arbitrary cut off here and boundary condition there. Most of all, the effects of the finiteness of our condition cannot ever be underestimated. One thing that Leibniz failed to comprehend is the cost of the perfect system that he attempted to construct. Voltair saw it but only as a weakness to lampoon Leibniz' with and not to correct, as he and the rest of the classicists where loath to give up the Assumption of the voyeuristic observer that can somehow see and measure all things. Hidden in their thinking was a need to morally justify the inequality between men that their system supported. We live in a world of costs and scarcity. There is no such thing as a free lunch, but if we work hard we can make a cheaper lunch. ;-) -- Onward! Stephen - -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
Hi meekerdb The world down here isn't heaven, yes, but there still is a Heaven for the afterlife, IMHO. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/3/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-02, 14:31:51 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. So there is no heaven. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 02 Jan 2013, at 20:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. So there is no heaven. There might be a heaven, but the price is that there might be a hell too, and a complex Mandelbrot like boundary between. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Jan 2013, at 20:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. So there is no heaven. There might be a heaven, but the price is that there might be a hell too, and a complex Mandelbrot like boundary between. Bruno Looking at the plight of the average person on earth, I conclude that hell is on earth. Therefore by your thinking there might just be a heaven. Richard Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/3/2013 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I suppose that you're referring to the cpre-established perfect harmony, which makes it seem as if everything we do is determined (by God). IMHO that only means that God knows what we will do, not make the decision for us. Hi Roger, The days that we can believe the Laplacean version of determinism are over. I believe in an immanent and continuously creative God. No event or observer is special, it is just that we cannot escape from the 1p of our experience, other than with our imaginations. ;-) -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
Hi meekerb, Heaven is not part of contingent creation, so your statement that there is no heaven is illogical or irrelevant. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/4/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-03, 12:23:33 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. On 02 Jan 2013, at 20:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. So there is no heaven. There might be a heaven, but the price is that there might be a hell too, and a complex Mandelbrot like boundary between. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
The best of all possible Worlds.
I forgot add that that's why Leibniz called this The best of all possible Worlds. Why bad things happen to good people--Leibniz's Theodicy As to tornadoes, there are various views, usually part of Theodicies. Here's the view I prefer, that of my mentor, Leibniz, explained in his Theodicy, which Voltaire took up in his unfair and totally misinformed criticism, the novel Candide. According to Leibniz, there are two forms of being, that belonging to perfect, timeless, necessary reason, assigned to Heaven or Platonia, and that of contingent, time-dependent and therefore undependable reason and perfection (that down here, on earth). Scientific theory deals with the former, where time is reversible, and scientific experimentation, with the latter, done down here, in the world, where time is not reversible. Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. Thus evil and catastrophes are probabilistic. Leibniz's theodicy ior justification for God is that God, being good, does the best that he can with the imperfect, partly evuil world he has to work with. That is why pray for God to deliver us from evil in the Lord's prayer. But we also say thy will be done. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/2/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/2/2013 8:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: I forgot add that that's why Leibniz called this The best of all possible Worlds. Why bad things happen to good people--Leibniz's Theodicy As to tornadoes, there are various views, usually part of Theodicies. Here's the view I prefer, that of my mentor, Leibniz, explained in his Theodicy, which Voltaire took up in his unfair and totally misinformed criticism, the novel Candide. According to Leibniz, there are two forms of being, that belonging to perfect, timeless, necessary reason, assigned to Heaven or Platonia, and that of contingent, time-dependent and therefore undependable reason and perfection (that down here, on earth). Scientific theory deals with the former, where time is reversible, and scientific experimentation, with the latter, done down here, in the world, where time is not reversible. Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. Thus evil and catastrophes are probabilistic. Leibniz's theodicy ior justification for God is that God, being good, does the best that he can with the imperfect, partly evuil world he has to work with. That is why pray for God to deliver us from evil in the Lord's prayer. But we also say thy will be done. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net mailto:%20rclo...@verizon.net] 1/2/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- Dear Roger, Ultimately, all such measures are subjective, being the result of some arbitrary cut off here and boundary condition there. Most of all, the effects of the finiteness of our condition cannot ever be underestimated. One thing that Leibniz failed to comprehend is the cost of the perfect system that he attempted to construct. Voltair saw it but only as a weakness to lampoon Leibniz' with and not to correct, as he and the rest of the classicists where loath to give up the Assumption of the voyeuristic observer that can somehow see and measure all things. Hidden in their thinking was a need to morally justify the inequality between men that their system supported. We live in a world of costs and scarcity. There is no such thing as a free lunch, but if we work hard we can make a cheaper lunch. ;-) -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The best of all possible Worlds.
On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good everywhere at the same time. So there is no heaven. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
