Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > More to the point of my original comment, though, you frequently make > statements about how it follows from this an explanation of quantum, > qualia, matter, etc., using references to modal logic, Plotinus' theory of > matter, the eight hypostases, and other very high-level concepts. > > I guess I'm just having trouble connecting the dots in between. > > > It took me 30 years of math to get that. But I am giving the dots right > now on the FOAR list (as I have done already on this list). The difficulty > is in the work already done by Gödel, Löb, Solovay, relating provability to > the G logic, the relation between provability and computability, etc. I > suggest you look at the FOAR list, for not psuhing me to duplicate the > informations, thanks. > Of course. I'll go get myself subscribed to that list, thanks. Johnathan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On 19 May 2013, at 21:54, Johnathan Corgan wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Feel free to ask more from this post, though. If you understand the FPI, the rest follows from logic and some passive theoretical computer science, I think. Yes, I understand UDA 1-7 and the concept that first-person indeterminacy arises from the one's current state being the possible future state of an infinity of prior computational states (give the assumptions of the argument.) It's less clear to me how this would translate to an expectation value or measure on the space of possible future states from this one. How could it be different? It follows from step 6 and 7. It does not mean that the measure exists, but that if comp is true, the measure has to exist, and will define what is the physical reality. Then the math (hypostases) explains why the measure seems already to exist, defines a quantum logic, More to the point of my original comment, though, you frequently make statements about how it follows from this an explanation of quantum, qualia, matter, etc., using references to modal logic, Plotinus' theory of matter, the eight hypostases, and other very high-level concepts. I guess I'm just having trouble connecting the dots in between. It took me 30 years of math to get that. But I am giving the dots right now on the FOAR list (as I have done already on this list). The difficulty is in the work already done by Gödel, Löb, Solovay, relating provability to the G logic, the relation between provability and computability, etc. I suggest you look at the FOAR list, for not psuhing me to duplicate the informations, thanks. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Feel free to ask more from this post, though. If you understand the FPI, > the rest follows from logic and some passive theoretical computer science, > I think. > Yes, I understand UDA 1-7 and the concept that first-person indeterminacy arises from the one's current state being the possible future state of an infinity of prior computational states (give the assumptions of the argument.) It's less clear to me how this would translate to an expectation value or measure on the space of possible future states from this one. More to the point of my original comment, though, you frequently make statements about how it follows from this an explanation of quantum, qualia, matter, etc., using references to modal logic, Plotinus' theory of matter, the eight hypostases, and other very high-level concepts. I guess I'm just having trouble connecting the dots in between. Johnathan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On 18 May 2013, at 23:32, Johnathan Corgan wrote: On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Matter is a first person plural sharable border by collections of machines which multiplied collectively on the set of all computations. It sure would nice if you could unpack this sentence, word by word, to help make its meaning more clear. Doing that is the same as relating the UDA. You have to put yourself at the place of the observer in step seven(*) (no need of step 8 to get this). Let me try to sum up shortly, not UDA, but the consequence. You can start from arithmetic. The laws of addition and multiplication makes it Turing complete, and from arithmetic a giant web of machines or numbers dreams (3p, computations) emerges. In the same way that the distribution of the prime numbers emerges. But we need the first person account, not just the 3p computations. Once you take it into account, bu UDA1-6, you are distributed in it [a concrete version at step seven, but the 'concreteness' is not needed by step 8, but the pictiure is the same] by the global first person indeterminacy (FPI) [on arithmetic, or on a concrete UD*], so that from your first person point of view (hopefully sharable, but Everett confirms the sharability) your body is only a map of the "universes" (dreams) you can access with some probability. A body is just an arithmetical door permitting a "universal" consciousness flux to differentiate in many histories. They are orthogonal above the level, and not orthogonal below, which entails a notion of proximity on the consistent extensions, and this obeys indeed to a quantum logic, (as it can been shown when doing the math). More on this on the FOAR list where I promised to explain a bit more of that math. Feel free to ask more from this post, though. If you understand the FPI, the rest follows from logic and some passive theoretical computer science, I think. Bruno (*) http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html Johnathan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Matter is a first person plural sharable border by collections of machines > which multiplied collectively on the set of all computations. > It sure would nice if you could unpack this sentence, word by word, to help make its meaning more clear. Johnathan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On 17 May 2013, at 18:47, meekerdb wrote: On 5/17/2013 12:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It would not be an epiphenomenon, unless you think the soul as no power of its own. Materialist cannot keep both matter and mind. Why not suppose they are just different aspects of the same thing. That's where we are brought by the comp hyp. Both matter and mind are aspect of arithmetical truth seen from inside. Matter is a first person plural sharable border by collections of machines which multiplied collectively on the set of all computations. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On 5/17/2013 12:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It would not be an epiphenomenon, unless you think the soul as no power of its own. Materialist cannot keep both matter and mind. Why not suppose they are just different aspects of the same thing. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On 17 May 2013, at 00:22, Richard Ruquist wrote: This list appears to support MWI in which every wave function and its associated particle becomes physical but in a differing parallel world or universe. So from a 3p perspective, everything is predetermined and from what I can tell from a 1p perspective there is only the illusion of consciousness "illusion of consciousness" is self-contradictory. You cannot be genuinely deluded about being consciously deluded. Someone unconscious cannot be deluded. Illusion of free-will makes sense when free-will is defined in the usual inconsistent manner, but some definition (the so-called compatibilist) works fine. Free-will is the ability to take personal definition, with the person defined either by Kleene recursion theorem (the Dx = "xx" method), or Kleene's theorem + Theaetus definition of the knower (the true believer). and free will. I contend that in such a case, there is no need for a morality or a soul. I have no idea of how indeterminacy could help. On the contrary, you need a reasonable amount of dterminacy to get the free-will, which is a form of self-determinacy in incomplete information set up. Bruno On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 5:08 PM, wrote: From an ancient Simpsons, from Homer to Bart: what is mind? Never matter. What is matter? Never mind. I will hold with Chalmers, on this one. That it is the hard problem. Perhaps like the pure materialists love to say, the mind is merely an epiphenomenon, of the human brain. Ok, but I ask, does the epiphenomenon, have a soul? ;-) -Original Message- From: Richard Ruquist To: everything-list Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 3:32 pm Subject: Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter This reminds me of Isaac Asimov's 1, 2, 3, infinity On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter According to the Dao de jing, the solution to the mind-brain problem is that it is not a problem. Matter is mind, mind is matter is one way of saying it. Leibniz said the same, that monads are expressions of material bodies. The physical is the nonphysical, the nonphysical is the physical is another way. According to modern physics, matter or spacetime emerges from the nonphysical. This was expressed long, long ago in the Dao de jing, According to Legge's translations of chapter 42, the Tao Te Ching: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing42.php "The Dao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; Three produced All things. Reason begets unity; unity begets duality; duality begets trinity; and tr inity begets the ten thousand things. Tao produces unity; unity produces duality; duality produces trinity; tri nity produces all things." Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 5/16/2013 See my Leibniz site at http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On 16 May 2013, at 23:08, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: From an ancient Simpsons, from Homer to Bart: what is mind? Never matter. What is matter? Never mind. I will hold with Chalmers, on this one. Chalmers does not seem aware of the hard problem of matter. He coined the expression "hard problem of consciousness", (which is just the mind-body problem), but stick on matter, which is not astonishing as he doesn't grasp the FPI. That it is the hard problem. Perhaps like the pure materialists love to say, the mind is merely an epiphenomenon, of the human brain. Ok, but I ask, does the epiphenomenon, have a soul? ;-) It would not be an epiphenomenon, unless you think the soul as no power of its own. Materialist cannot keep both matter and mind. Their prejudices in favor of some primitive matter makes the most coherent tempted to eliminate the soul, i.e. the person. In my opinion this is not plausible, and even dangerous or 'inhuman'. Bruno PS I replied to a private message you sent to me, but I got a mailing delivery message according to which your address does not exist. I let you know. -Original Message- From: Richard Ruquist To: everything-list Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 3:32 pm Subject: Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter This reminds me of Isaac Asimov's 1, 2, 3, infinity On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter According to the Dao de jing, the solution to the mind-brain problem is that it is not a problem. Matter is mind, mind is matter is one way of saying it. Leibniz said the same, that monads are expressions of material bodies. The physical is the nonphysical, the nonphysical is the physical is another way. According to modern physics, matter or spacetime emerges from the nonphysical. This was expressed long, long ago in the Dao de jing, According to Legge's translations of chapter 42, the Tao Te Ching: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing42.php "The Dao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; Three produced All things. Reason begets unity; unity begets duality; duality begets trinity; and tr inity begets the ten thousand things. Tao produces unity; unity produces duality; duality produces trinity; tri nity produces all things." Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 5/16/2013 See my Leibniz site at http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
Hi Richard, On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 12:22 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > This list appears to support MWI in which every wave function and its > associated particle becomes physical but in a differing parallel world or > universe. So from a 3p perspective, everything is predetermined and from > what I can tell from a 1p perspective there is only the illusion of > consciousness and free will. That is the only possibility to begin with, MWI or not. Looking from outside the system, we will never appear to have free will. But we can't go live outside the system nor can we look from there, because we are part of the system. > I contend that in such a case, there is no need > for a morality or a soul. If by soul you mean consciousness, I don't doubt it's existence because I experience it directly, not because I think there's a need for it. I think morality is a group-level evolutionary advantage. Cheers Telmo. > > On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 5:08 PM, wrote: >> >> From an ancient Simpsons, from Homer to Bart: what is mind? Never matter. >> What is matter? Never mind. I will hold with Chalmers, on this one. That it >> is the hard problem. Perhaps like the pure materialists love to say, the >> mind is merely an epiphenomenon, of the human brain. Ok, but I ask, does the >> epiphenomenon, have a soul? ;-) >> >> >> -Original Message----- >> From: Richard Ruquist >> To: everything-list >> Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 3:32 pm >> Subject: Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter >> >> This reminds me of Isaac Asimov's 1, 2, 3, infinity >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> >> wrote: >> The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter >> >> According to the Dao de jing, the solution to the mind-brain problem is >> that it is not a problem. >> >> Matter is mind, mind is matter is one way of saying it. >> >> Leibniz said the same, that monads are expressions of material bodies. >> >> The physical is the nonphysical, the nonphysical is the physical is >> another way. >> According to modern physics, matter or spacetime emerges from >> the nonphysical. >> >> This was expressed long, long ago in the Dao de jing, >> >> According to Legge's translations of chapter 42, the Tao Te Ching: >> >> http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing42.php >> >> "The Dao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; >> Three produced All things. >> >> Reason begets unity; unity begets duality; duality begets trinity; and tr >> inity begets the ten thousand things. >> >> Tao produces unity; unity produces duality; duality produces trinity; tri >> nity produces all things." >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 5/16/2013 >> See my Leibniz site at >> http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
This list appears to support MWI in which every wave function and its associated particle becomes physical but in a differing parallel world or universe. So from a 3p perspective, everything is predetermined and from what I can tell from a 1p perspective there is only the illusion of consciousness and free will. I contend that in such a case, there is no need for a morality or a soul. On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 5:08 PM, wrote: > From an ancient Simpsons, from Homer to Bart: what is mind? Never matter. > What is matter? Never mind. I will hold with Chalmers, on this one. That it > is the hard problem. Perhaps like the pure materialists love to say, the > mind is merely an epiphenomenon, of the human brain. Ok, but I ask, does > the epiphenomenon, have a soul? ;-) > > > -Original Message- > From: Richard Ruquist > To: everything-list > > > > Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 3:32 pm > Subject: Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter > > This reminds me of Isaac Asimov's 1, 2, 3, infinity > > > On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> > wrote: > The Leibniz-Taoist solution: **Matter is mind, mind is matter > > According to the Dao de jing, the solution to the mind-brain problem is > that it is not a problem. > > Matter is mind, mind is matter is one way of saying it. > > Leibniz said the same, that monads are expressions of material bodies. > > The physical is the nonphysical, the nonphysical is the physical is > another way. > According to modern physics, matter or spacetime emerges from > the nonphysical. > > This was expressed long, long ago in the Dao de jing, > > According to Legge's translations of chapter 42, the Tao Te Ching: > > http://www.yellowbridge.com/**onlinelit/daodejing42.php<http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing42.php> > > "The Dao produced One; One **produced Two; Two produced **Three; > Three produced All things. > > Reason begets unity; unity **begets duality; duality ** > begets trinity; and tr > inity begets the ten thousand **things. > > Tao produces unity; unity **produces duality; duality ** > produces trinity; tri > nity produces all things." > > > > > Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) **5/16/2013 > See my Leibniz site at > http://team.academia.edu/**RogerClough<http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough> > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > . > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com > . > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> > . > For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> > . > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > . > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com > . > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> > . > For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> > . > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > . > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com > . > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> > . > For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
From an ancient Simpsons, from Homer to Bart: what is mind? Never matter. What is matter? Never mind. I will hold with Chalmers, on this one. That it is the hard problem. Perhaps like the pure materialists love to say, the mind is merely an epiphenomenon, of the human brain. Ok, but I ask, does the epiphenomenon, have a soul? ;-) -Original Message- From: Richard Ruquist To: everything-list Sent: Thu, May 16, 2013 3:32 pm Subject: Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter This reminds me of Isaac Asimov's 1, 2, 3, infinity On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter According to the Dao de jing, the solution to the mind-brain problem is that it is not a problem. Matter is mind, mind is matter is one way of saying it. Leibniz said the same, that monads are expressions of material bodies. The physical is the nonphysical, the nonphysical is the physical is another way. According to modern physics, matter or spacetime emerges from the nonphysical. This was expressed long, long ago in the Dao de jing, According to Legge's translations of chapter 42, the Tao Te Ching: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing42.php "The Dao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; Three produced All things. Reason begets unity; unity begets duality; duality begets trinity; and tr inity begets the ten thousand things. Tao produces unity; unity produces duality; duality produces trinity; tri nity produces all things." Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 5/16/2013 See my Leibniz site at http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
On 5/16/2013 12:32 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: This reminds me of Isaac Asimov's 1, 2, 3, infinity You mean the one George Gamow wrote for him? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter
This reminds me of Isaac Asimov's 1, 2, 3, infinity On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > The Leibniz-Taoist solution: Matter is mind, mind is matter > > According to the Dao de jing, the solution to the mind-brain problem is > that it is not a problem. > > Matter is mind, mind is matter is one way of saying it. > > Leibniz said the same, that monads are expressions of material bodies. > > The physical is the nonphysical, the nonphysical is the physical is > another way. > According to modern physics, matter or spacetime emerges from > the nonphysical. > > This was expressed long, long ago in the Dao de jing, > > According to Legge's translations of chapter 42, the Tao Te Ching: > > http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing42.php > > "The Dao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; > Three produced All things. > > > Reason begets unity; unity begets duality; duality begets trinity; and > trinity begets the ten thousand things. > > > Tao produces unity; unity produces duality; duality produces trinity; trinity > produces all things." > > > > > Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 5/16/2013 > See my Leibniz site at > http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
