Re: What Hell is like

[Bruno Marchal]

On 03 Jan 2013, at 14:47, Craig Weinberg wrote (to Roger Clough):

Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which  
extrapolate the ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness  
to a super-significance. God is a metaphor in the exact same way -  
an algebraic concept of X = Infinite proprietary superlatives.


I don't disagree. Possible.




If you are in a world of competing polytheistic deities, each the  
representation of a personal superlative or sphere of influence (God  
of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), then the invention of a supreme  
ultimate deity who trumps all others in all categories is an  
excellent political strategy.


Yes.

Unless the "unique" God is used in a normative way, like if some  
people knew better than others in some public way.


Then it is no more an excellent political strategy, but the worst.

Normally comp "well understood" prevent "God", or actually anyone,  to  
be thinking at your place.





It's a convenient way to consolidate allegiance and direct  
everyone's personal insecurities to a mass psychology solution.


(I imagined well you were using "politics" in a pejorative sense, but  
politics for me is like sailing, except the boat is not always close  
to the sea). By definition I would say that an excellent politics is  
one which optimizes stable (perdurable) majority satisfactions.



It is here, like in science, that God is probably the best idea and  
"God" is probably the worst idea.
That's the difficulty in theology: to distinguish God from any "God"s.  
The confusion is easy, even more in time theology is artificially  
separated from the scientific attitude.


By using "religion" and "politics" only in the pejorative sense, not  
much hope can remain.


Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Re: Re: What Hell is like

[Craig Weinberg]

On Friday, January 4, 2013 3:09:11 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>  
> You're right, I was thinking as a jew might, but if orgot that jesus 
> introduced the
> concept of thought crimes (intentions).  
>


" I was thinking as a jew might,"

lol

  
> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
> 1/4/2013 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>
> - Receiving the following content - 
> *From:* Craig Weinberg  
> *Receiver:* everything-list  
> *Time:* 2013-01-03, 12:05:31
> *Subject:* Re: Re: What Hell is like
>
>  
>
> On Thursday, January 3, 2013 9:11:29 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
>>
>>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>>  
>> All of your quotes are very good advice.
>> What's your point ?
>>
>
> My point is that any worthwhile religion is very much concerned with 
> intentions and the content of your 'heart', at least as much as whether you 
> violate the letter of any particular religious law. You were saying that 
> all that matters is whether you sinned or not, whether you break the law or 
> not, and that your good or evil intentions don't matter. I am saying that 
> intention is a defining aspect of any honest conception of good and evil.
>  
>
>>   
>>  
>> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
>> 1/3/2013 
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>>
>> - Receiving the following content - 
>> *From:* Craig Weinberg 
>> *Receiver:* everything-list 
>> *Time:* 2013-01-03, 08:47:13
>> *Subject:* Re: What Hell is like
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
>>>
>>> Hi Craig Weinberg   
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
>>> The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
>>> you do the time. 
>>
>>
>> I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking 
>> about:
>>
>> Timothy 
>> 1:5<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+1%3A5&version=ESV> 
>>  
>>
>>
>> The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
>> conscience and a sincere faith. 
>>  Timothy 
>> 6:10<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+6%3A10&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>> "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through 
>> this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced 
>> themselves with many pangs. "
>> Hebrews 
>> 12:14<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12%3A14&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one 
>> will see the Lord. 
>> Timothy 
>> 3:13<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3%3A13&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving 
>> and being deceived. 
>> Philippians 
>> 4:8<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4%3A8&version=ESV>
>>  
>>
>> Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is 
>> just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if 
>> there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about 
>> these things. 
>> Philippians 
>> 1:15-18<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+1%3A15-18&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good 
>> will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the 
>> defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not 
>> sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only 
>> that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, 
>> and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 
>> Ephesians 
>> 2:8-9<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-9&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own 
>> doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may 
>> boast. 
>> Romans 
>> 2:5<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2%3A5&version=ESV>  
>>
>>
>> But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath 
>> for yourself on the day of wrath when God&#

Re: Re: What Hell is like

[Roger Clough]

Hi meekerdb 

Presumably they have no remorse.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/4/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content - 
From: meekerdb 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-03, 13:07:26
Subject: Re: What Hell is like


Or 

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring 
hither, and slay them before me."
   --- Jesus, Luke 19:27 


On 1/3/2013 6:11 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 
Hi Craig Weinberg 

All of your quotes are very good advice.
What's your point ?


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/3/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Craig Weinberg 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-03, 08:47:13
Subject: Re: What Hell is like




On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
Hi Craig Weinberg   

It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
you do the time. 

I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking about:


Timothy 1:5  
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
conscience and a sincere faith. 
Timothy 6:10  
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this 
craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with 
many pangs. "

Hebrews 12:14  
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will 
see the Lord. 
Timothy 3:13  
While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and 
being deceived. 

Philippians 4:8 
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, 
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any 
excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 

Philippians 1:15-18  
Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The 
latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the 
gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking 
to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in 
pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I 
will rejoice, 

Ephesians 2:8-9  
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; 
it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

Romans 2:5  
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for 
yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 


You sin, you go to Hell. 

If you repent, you go to Heaven.
 

Personally, I believe 
that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's 
love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He 
refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
gnashing of teeth".  


Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from 
what we observe, is not always a pleasant life. 


Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate the 
ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a super-significance. God 
is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic concept of X = Infinite 
proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of competing polytheistic 
deities, each the representation of a personal superlative or sphere of 
influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), then the invention of a supreme 
ultimate deity who trumps all others in all categories is an excellent 
political strategy. It's a convenient way to consolidate allegiance and direct 
everyone's personal insecurities to a mass psychology solution.

  



[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
1/3/2013   
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -   
From: Craig Weinberg   
Receiver: everything-list   
Time: 2013-01-02, 20:24:14 
Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil 




On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:21:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
On 1/2/2013 2:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:   
That really has nothing to do with Evil though, except in sloppy reasoning. 
True Evil is about intentionally initiating social harm. Getting smallpox is 
not evil, it is just unfortunate. Giving someone blankets known to be infected 
with smallp 

On the contrary it is sloppy ethics to confine 'evil' to intentional social 
harm.  First, it implies that socially bad is bad simpliciter, but values are 
ultimately personal values. 

Speaking of sloppy. I'm not sure what that was intended to say.  Without some 
explanation of why you say that evil is other than intentional social harm, it 
sounds like you are just saying that you disagree. 
  

  Second, it implies

Re: Re: What Hell is like

[Roger Clough]

Hi meekerdb  

Personally, I find that Leibniz has given me the most satisfactory explanations 
for God's actions in this world in his theodicy. Also, his monadology can be 
used to
develop your own logical solutions to just about anything.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/4/2013  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-03, 13:04:46 
Subject: Re: What Hell is like 


On 1/3/2013 5:47 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:  
Personally, I believe  
that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's  
love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He  
refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and  
gnashing of teeth".   


Heaven and Hell were invented so that injustice, so obviously missing on Earth, 
could be redressed in an afterlife.  I think it has a lake of fire because 
people didn't think 'not feeling God's love' was enough punishment for say 
Hitler.  Of course then they got carried away by superlatives, "Believe in my 
god or he'll punish you worse than your god." 



Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from  
what we observe, is not always a pleasant life.  


Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate the 
ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a super-significance. God 
is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic concept of X = Infinite 
proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of competing polytheistic 
deities, each the representation of a personal superlative or sphere of 
influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), then the invention of a supreme 
ultimate deity who trumps all others in all categories is an excellent 
political strategy. It's a convenient way to consolidate allegiance and direct 
everyone's personal insecurities to a mass psychology solution. 

Right. See Craig A. James book, "The Religion Virus" for a nice explication of 
this. 

Brent

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Re: Re: Re: What Hell is like

[Roger Clough]

Hi Craig Weinberg 

You're right, I was thinking as a jew might, but if orgot that jesus introduced 
the
concept of thought crimes (intentions).  

[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/4/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Craig Weinberg 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-03, 12:05:31
Subject: Re: Re: What Hell is like




On Thursday, January 3, 2013 9:11:29 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
Hi Craig Weinberg 

All of your quotes are very good advice.
What's your point ?

My point is that any worthwhile religion is very much concerned with intentions 
and the content of your 'heart', at least as much as whether you violate the 
letter of any particular religious law. You were saying that all that matters 
is whether you sinned or not, whether you break the law or not, and that your 
good or evil intentions don't matter. I am saying that intention is a defining 
aspect of any honest conception of good and evil.
 



[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/3/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Craig Weinberg 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-03, 08:47:13
Subject: Re: What Hell is like




On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
Hi Craig Weinberg   

It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
you do the time. 

I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking about:


Timothy 1:5  
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
conscience and a sincere faith. 
Timothy 6:10  
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this 
craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with 
many pangs. "

Hebrews 12:14  
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will 
see the Lord. 
Timothy 3:13  
While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and 
being deceived. 

Philippians 4:8 
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, 
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any 
excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 

Philippians 1:15-18  
Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The 
latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the 
gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking 
to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in 
pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I 
will rejoice, 

Ephesians 2:8-9  
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; 
it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

Romans 2:5  
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for 
yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 


You sin, you go to Hell. 

If you repent, you go to Heaven.
 

Personally, I believe 
that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's 
love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He 
refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
gnashing of teeth".  


Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from 
what we observe, is not always a pleasant life. 


Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate the 
ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a super-significance. God 
is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic concept of X = Infinite 
proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of competing polytheistic 
deities, each the representation of a personal superlative or sphere of 
influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), then the invention of a supreme 
ultimate deity who trumps all others in all categories is an excellent 
political strategy. It's a convenient way to consolidate allegiance and direct 
everyone's personal insecurities to a mass psychology solution.

  



[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
1/3/2013   
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -   
From: Craig Weinberg   
Receiver: everything-list   
Time: 2013-01-02, 20:24:14 
Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil 




On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:21:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
On 1/2/2013 2:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:   
That really has nothing to do with Evil though, except in sloppy reasoning. 
True Evil is about intentionally initiating social harm. Getting smallpox is 
not evil, it is just unfortunate. Giving someone blankets known to be infected 
with 

Re: Re: What Hell is like

[John Clark]

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Roger Clough  wrote:

 > Hi Craig Weinberg
> All of your quotes are very good advice.
>

Do you also think that God gave good advice 1 Samuel 15:2-3?

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy
all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant
and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

How about Numbers 25:4?

"Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the Lord against
the sun."

Or Isaiah 14:21?

"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Or 1 Samuel 15:2-3

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy
all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant
and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

Or Leviticus 26:22

"I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your
children."

Or Jeremiah 19:9?

"And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of
their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend."

Or Exodus 13:15

"The LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn
of man, and the firstborn of beast."

> You sin, you go to Hell. Personally, I believe that the "eternal torture"
> of Hell is not to be able to feel God's
> love and forgiveness.
>

Hmm, that doesn't sound bad at all! The last thing in the world I'd want is
love and forgiveness from a moral monster like Jehovah.

  John K Clark

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Re: What Hell is like

[meekerdb]

Or

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and 
slay them before me."

   --- Jesus, Luke 19:27


On 1/3/2013 6:11 AM, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Craig Weinberg
All of your quotes are very good advice.
What's your point ?
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net]>
1/3/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

- Receiving the following content -
*From:* Craig Weinberg <mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>
*Receiver:* everything-list <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
*Time:* 2013-01-03, 08:47:13
*Subject:* Re: What Hell is like



On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

Hi Craig Weinberg

It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions.
The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime,
you do the time. 



I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking 
about:


  Timothy 1:5
  
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+1%3A5&version=ESV>

The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
conscience
and a sincere faith.


  Timothy 6:10
  
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+6%3A10&version=ESV>

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this 
craving
that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many 
pangs. "


  Hebrews 12:14
  
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12%3A14&version=ESV>

Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one 
will see
the Lord.


  Timothy 3:13
  
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3%3A13&version=ESV>

While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and 
being
deceived.


  Philippians 4:8
  
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4%3A8&version=ESV>

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is 
just,
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is 
any
excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.


  Philippians 1:15-18
  
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+1%3A15-18&version=ESV>

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 
The
latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the 
gospel.
The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to 
afflict me
in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense 
or in
truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,


  Ephesians 2:8-9
  
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-9&version=ESV>

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own 
doing; it
is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


  Romans 2:5 
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2%3A5&version=ESV>

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for 
yourself
on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.


You sin, you go to Hell. 



If you repent, you go to Heaven.

Personally, I believe
that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's
love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He
refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and
gnashing of teeth".


Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from
what we observe, is not always a pleasant life.


Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate 
the
ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a super-significance. 
God is a
metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic concept of X = Infinite 
proprietary
superlatives. If you are in a world of competing polytheistic deities, each 
the
representation of a personal superlative or sphere of influence (God of 
war, Goddess
of beauty, etc), then the invention of a supreme ultimate deity who trumps 
all
others in all categories is an excellent political strategy. It's a 
convenient way
to consolidate allegiance and direct everyone's personal insecurities to a 
mass
psychology solution.




[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net ]
1/3/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content -
From: Craig Weinberg

Re: What Hell is like

[meekerdb]

On 1/3/2013 5:47 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


Personally, I believe
that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's
love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He
refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and
gnashing of teeth".



Heaven and Hell were invented so that injustice, so obviously missing on Earth, could be 
redressed in an afterlife.  I think it has a lake of fire because people didn't think 'not 
feeling God's love' was enough punishment for say Hitler.  Of course then they got carried 
away by superlatives, "Believe in my god or he'll punish you worse than your god."




Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from
what we observe, is not always a pleasant life.


Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate the ordinary 
high and low moods of human consciousness to a super-significance. God is a metaphor in 
the exact same way - an algebraic concept of X = Infinite proprietary superlatives. If 
you are in a world of competing polytheistic deities, each the representation of a 
personal superlative or sphere of influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), then 
the invention of a supreme ultimate deity who trumps all others in all categories is an 
excellent political strategy. It's a convenient way to consolidate allegiance and direct 
everyone's personal insecurities to a mass psychology solution.


Right. See Craig A. James book, "The Religion Virus" for a nice explication of 
this.

Brent


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Re: Re: What Hell is like

[Craig Weinberg]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 9:11:29 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>  
> All of your quotes are very good advice.
> What's your point ?
>

My point is that any worthwhile religion is very much concerned with 
intentions and the content of your 'heart', at least as much as whether you 
violate the letter of any particular religious law. You were saying that 
all that matters is whether you sinned or not, whether you break the law or 
not, and that your good or evil intentions don't matter. I am saying that 
intention is a defining aspect of any honest conception of good and evil.
 

>  
>  
> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
> 1/3/2013 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>
> - Receiving the following content - 
> *From:* Craig Weinberg  
> *Receiver:* everything-list  
> *Time:* 2013-01-03, 08:47:13
> *Subject:* Re: What Hell is like
>
>  
>
> On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
>>
>> Hi Craig Weinberg   
>>
>> It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
>> The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
>> you do the time. 
>
>
> I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking 
> about:
>
> Timothy 
> 1:5<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+1%3A5&version=ESV>  
>
>
> The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
> conscience and a sincere faith. 
>  Timothy 
> 6:10<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+6%3A10&version=ESV>
>   
>
> "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this 
> craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves 
> with many pangs. "
> Hebrews 
> 12:14<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12%3A14&version=ESV>
>   
>
>
> Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one 
> will see the Lord. 
> Timothy 
> 3:13<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3%3A13&version=ESV>
>   
>
>
> While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving 
> and being deceived. 
> Philippians 
> 4:8<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4%3A8&version=ESV>
>  
>
> Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is 
> just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if 
> there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about 
> these things. 
> Philippians 
> 1:15-18<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+1%3A15-18&version=ESV>
>   
>
>
> Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good 
> will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the 
> defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not 
> sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only 
> that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, 
> and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 
> Ephesians 
> 2:8-9<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-9&version=ESV>
>   
>
>
> For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own 
> doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may 
> boast. 
> Romans 
> 2:5<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2%3A5&version=ESV>  
>
>
> But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for 
> yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be 
> revealed. 
>
>
> You sin, you go to Hell. 
>
>
> If you repent, you go to Heaven.
>  
>
>> Personally, I believe 
>> that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's 
>> love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He 
>> refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
>> gnashing of teeth".  
>>
>
>> Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from 
>> what we observe, is not always a pleasant life. 
>>
>
> Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate 
> the ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a 
> super-significance. God is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic 
> concept of X = Infinite proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of 
> competing polytheistic deities, each the representation of a personal 
> superlative or sphere of influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), 
> then the i

Re: Re: What Hell is like

[Roger Clough]

Hi Craig Weinberg 

All of your quotes are very good advice.
What's your point ?


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/3/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Craig Weinberg 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-03, 08:47:13
Subject: Re: What Hell is like




On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
Hi Craig Weinberg   

It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
you do the time. 

I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking about:


Timothy 1:5  
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
conscience and a sincere faith. 
Timothy 6:10  
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this 
craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with 
many pangs. "

Hebrews 12:14  
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will 
see the Lord. 
Timothy 3:13  
While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and 
being deceived. 

Philippians 4:8 
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, 
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any 
excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 

Philippians 1:15-18  
Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The 
latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the 
gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking 
to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in 
pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I 
will rejoice, 

Ephesians 2:8-9  
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; 
it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

Romans 2:5  
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for 
yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 


You sin, you go to Hell. 

If you repent, you go to Heaven.
 

Personally, I believe 
that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's 
love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He 
refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
gnashing of teeth".  


Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from 
what we observe, is not always a pleasant life. 


Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate the 
ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a super-significance. God 
is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic concept of X = Infinite 
proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of competing polytheistic 
deities, each the representation of a personal superlative or sphere of 
influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), then the invention of a supreme 
ultimate deity who trumps all others in all categories is an excellent 
political strategy. It's a convenient way to consolidate allegiance and direct 
everyone's personal insecurities to a mass psychology solution.

  



[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
1/3/2013   
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -   
From: Craig Weinberg   
Receiver: everything-list   
Time: 2013-01-02, 20:24:14 
Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil 




On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:21:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
On 1/2/2013 2:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:   
That really has nothing to do with Evil though, except in sloppy reasoning. 
True Evil is about intentionally initiating social harm. Getting smallpox is 
not evil, it is just unfortunate. Giving someone blankets known to be infected 
with smallp 

On the contrary it is sloppy ethics to confine 'evil' to intentional social 
harm.  First, it implies that socially bad is bad simpliciter, but values are 
ultimately personal values. 

Speaking of sloppy. I'm not sure what that was intended to say.  Without some 
explanation of why you say that evil is other than intentional social harm, it 
sounds like you are just saying that you disagree. 
  

  Second, it implies that as soon as we find a physical cause (he was drunk, he 
had YY chromosmes, his father beat him) for a behavior it's not longer evil.   

It implies that only to those who think that personal intention is not a 
physical cause in its own right. Just because someone was drunk when they 
commit an evil act doesn't mean that it wasn't an evil act. 

  
But all behavior has a physical cause.   

All physics is an experiential effect. 
  
So I'm ok with just dropping the term 'evil' and 

Re: What Hell is like

[Craig Weinberg]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
>
> Hi Craig Weinberg   
>
> It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
> The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
> you do the time. 


I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking 
about:

Timothy 
1:5  


The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
conscience and a sincere faith. 
Timothy 
6:10
   

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this 
craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves 
with many pangs. "
Hebrews 
12:14  


Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one 
will see the Lord. 
Timothy 
3:13  


While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and 
being deceived. 
Philippians 
4:8  

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is 
just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if 
there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about 
these things. 
Philippians 
1:15-18
  


Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 
The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of 
the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but 
thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every 
way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I 
rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 
Ephesians 
2:8-9
  


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own 
doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may 
boast. 
Romans 
2:5  


But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for 
yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be 
revealed. 


You sin, you go to Hell. 


If you repent, you go to Heaven.
 

> Personally, I believe 
> that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's 
> love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He 
> refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
> gnashing of teeth".  
>

> Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from 
> what we observe, is not always a pleasant life. 
>

Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate 
the ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a 
super-significance. God is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic 
concept of X = Infinite proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of 
competing polytheistic deities, each the representation of a personal 
superlative or sphere of influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), 
then the invention of a supreme ultimate deity who trumps all others in all 
categories is an excellent political strategy. It's a convenient way to 
consolidate allegiance and direct everyone's personal insecurities to a 
mass psychology solution.

  

>
>
> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net ] 
> 1/3/2013   
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
> - Receiving the following content -   
> From: Craig Weinberg   
> Receiver: everything-list   
> Time: 2013-01-02, 20:24:14 
> Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil 
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:21:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
> On 1/2/2013 2:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:   
> That really has nothing to do with Evil though, except in sloppy 
> reasoning. True Evil is about intentionally initiating social harm. Getting 
> smallpox is not evil, it is just unfortunate. Giving someone blankets known 
> to be infected with smallp 
>
> On the contrary it is sloppy ethics to confine 'evil' to intentional 
> social harm.  First, it implies that socially bad is bad simpliciter, but 
> values are ultimately personal values. 
>
> Speaking of sloppy. I'm not sure what that was intended to say.  Without 
> some explanation of why you say that evil is other than intentional social 
> harm, it sounds like you are just saying that you disagree. 
>   
>
>   Second, it implies that as soon as we find a physical cause (he was 
> drunk, he had YY chromosmes, his father beat him) for a behavior it's not 
> longer evil.   
>
> It implies that only to those who think that personal intention is not a 
> physical cause in its own right. Just because

What Hell is like

[Roger Clough]

Hi Craig Weinberg  

It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
you do the time. You sin, you go to Hell. Personally, I believe
that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's
love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He
refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
gnashing of teeth".

Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from
what we observe, is not always a pleasant life.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/3/2013  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: Craig Weinberg  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-02, 20:24:14 
Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil 




On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:21:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
On 1/2/2013 2:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:  
That really has nothing to do with Evil though, except in sloppy reasoning. 
True Evil is about intentionally initiating social harm. Getting smallpox is 
not evil, it is just unfortunate. Giving someone blankets known to be infected 
with smallp 

On the contrary it is sloppy ethics to confine 'evil' to intentional social 
harm.  First, it implies that socially bad is bad simpliciter, but values are 
ultimately personal values. 

Speaking of sloppy. I'm not sure what that was intended to say.  Without some 
explanation of why you say that evil is other than intentional social harm, it 
sounds like you are just saying that you disagree. 
  

  Second, it implies that as soon as we find a physical cause (he was drunk, he 
had YY chromosmes, his father beat him) for a behavior it's not longer evil.   

It implies that only to those who think that personal intention is not a 
physical cause in its own right. Just because someone was drunk when they 
commit an evil act doesn't mean that it wasn't an evil act. 

  
But all behavior has a physical cause.   

All physics is an experiential effect. 
  
So I'm ok with just dropping the term 'evil' and just referring to good/bad for 
individuals and good/bad for society as derivative.  But I think it's a 
hangover from theodicy to refer to human actions as evil but not natural events 
- it's part of the idea that humans are apart from nature. 


I agree that dropping the term 'evil' as a formal term is the more enlightened 
way to go. I don't have a problem with it as an informal hyperbole that is 
reserved for intentionally cruel behavior though. I think that we can separate 
intentional human cruelty as a class of attitudes and effects unlike any other, 
though I would not apply any supernatural significance.  

I would say that there is a hidden hypocrisy in allowing no expectation of self 
control on the part of individuals while taking it for granted that exactly 
that kind of moral control is  to be expected from a law enforcing society 
composed of those same individuals. If it's not evil for an axe murderer to 
execute people at random, how can it be evil for a society to call that person 
evil and seek to execute them? If we want to be humane toward outlaws that's 
fine, but I don't think that we should do it out of the assumption that human 
behaviors are under no more human control than storms and earthquakes.  

Craig 



Brent 
Ethics is, at bottom, the art of recommending to others the 
self-sacrifice necessary to cooperate with ourselves. 
  --- Bertrand Russell 

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