Re: [FairfieldLife] calm the situation in Ukraine-you can help!
Mikey, the Jews having to register was not correct. That was pointed out to
you over a week ago. Come on now son, let's stay on track. Shall we?
(at this point our protagonist paces the stage, experiencing some cognitive
dissonance that one of his pet premises has been shot down)
A soliloquy begins: "This powerful guru, still powerful after death! Oh, how
thin I am spread, from California to Ukraine. I have only turned two away this
month. Forgive me! Forgive me! Am I not up to the task? No, of course I am!
I must continue this mission. They say I am entitled to my own opinions, but
not my own facts! HOW DARE THEY? My narrative must stand. It must stand,
must stand, must stand.."
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote :
and you are ignoring the violence inthe Ukraine, the fact that Jews now have
to register and all that???
On Fri, 5/9/14, srijau@... mailto:srijau@... mailto:srijau@...>
wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] calm the situation in Ukraine-you can help!
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 9, 2014, 12:16 AM
also Citizen Sidha groups program start very
recently near Moscow with over 70!
Invincible
Ukraine
Invincible
Ukraine Creating
Coherence and Harmony in the Collective Consciousness of
Ukraine for Peace and Unity in the Nation
View on www.invincible-ukraine.org
Preview by Yahoo
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thanks for your comments. One of the things that amuses me in this discussion is that two of the participants so far who are on record as having no need to believe in a God are also on record as having had enlightenment experiences. Whereas possibly some of those who think of themselves as believers in God have not. Such an assumption that really serves no useful purpose other than, well, you know.. Clearly belief in God has nothing to do with awakening or being able to have clear, according-to-Maharishi's-definitions periods of enlightenment. It might be helpful to know who you are arguing with on this point. My larger point is that I think that having a belief in God has nothing to do with *anything* other than having Just Another Belief. Such a belief is not necessary to follow a spiritual path, and not having such a belief is no hindrance to one. You do realize that you make this point on a nearly daily basis as though there is someone on the other side of this argument. I mean, I get the impression that people who have so called spiritual experiences may just make a note of them, and then move on. Now, I suppose there are many who benchmark these experiences, but really, it's not anything I much see here. So, maybe your comments are directed to a different audience. Even Jim, who is not bashful about declaring his enlightenment uses his own descriptions. I mean maybe they do end up corresponding somewhat to the experiences you read about in texts, and that MMY has outlined, but growth of spiritual experiences, if they are genuine, come off as being quite fresh, and usually quite confusing, at least at first.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Reformed Buddhists
is that so? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I have heard he said it many different ways. Maharishi was repetitive; he had basically the same message for over 50 years. As he said to one teacher 'Haven't you noticed I say the same thing over and over again?' The subject of reincarnation I find intriguing because, from a spiritual point of view, exactly what does reincarnation mean? The typical thing seems to be there is some special something in you that survives death of the body and somehow re-inhabits another body later on, but I have never bought that explanation. I have always thought it had to do with how the mind fragments experience, that is reincarnation - embodiment - is something that happens in real time now, something that breaks the unity of experience into separate embodied pieces each of which, to the viewpoint of the mind, has a beginning, a birth, and an ending, a death. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Just to be picky, "I don't believe in it" can mean either "I don't believe it exists" or "I'm opposed to it." If you're opposed to abortion, you might well say, "I don't believe in abortion." Anyway, what I heard that he said was "Reincarnation is for the ignorant," which is better than either. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LEnglish5@... Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 1:12 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Reformed Buddhists "Reincarnation? I don't believe in it" -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi He didn’t say that. He said he was “opposed” to it. Get the distinction? Means he believes in it, but wants people to get liberated so they won’t reincarnate. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:turquoiseb@...> wrote : Hey, I laughed, too... :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: speaking of reincarnation...
Welcome Back! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : 'doctor dumbass' has expired (frowny face) ...and been reborn (hallelujah!) -- I am living in a mobile home park, in Chico, sussing out the town, for a possible move -- hence my new nom de plume, 'fleetwood_macncheese', which has nothing to do with the band, and more to do with my brand -- 'fleetwood' is the motor-home type (like 'ford' or 'chevy'), and 'macncheese' speaks for itself - lol. The S(T)F(U) Bay Area was making me crazy, so after my wife and I visited here earlier this year, I decided to check it out, longer-term, and actually live here for several months, and if we like it, move here for good. Real estate is a third or less, what it is around SF, and I can drive from one end of town to the other, in ten minutes -- probably will get a bike. Went hiking yesterday in a huge city park (1900 acres), and took my first picture of a coyote, and some spectacular scenery - some links: the gorge https://app.box.com/s/9xgutxe6e71sjo1asr53 https://app.box.com/s/9xgutxe6e71sjo1asr53 rock and tree https://app.box.com/s/qum5s09mi2j70kgsvept https://app.box.com/s/qum5s09mi2j70kgsvept panorama https://app.box.com/s/d81ryrppz1fyml4ttyzp https://app.box.com/s/d81ryrppz1fyml4ttyzp lava field https://app.box.com/s/89oaxs7xoxzm50dwik1a https://app.box.com/s/89oaxs7xoxzm50dwik1a early canyon sun https://app.box.com/s/oyr1781pkcwc9hskei51 https://app.box.com/s/oyr1781pkcwc9hskei51 coyote https://app.box.com/s/cbcw1rbvry3xcdfkgytf https://app.box.com/s/cbcw1rbvry3xcdfkgytf Also, in keeping with the latest controversy on FFL, 'God', or a divine intelligence, infinitely greater than myself, recently led me, to the *best* cheeseburger in town, no kidding -- Driving back after my hike, I was hungry, so I turned into the first nondescript, non-chain, place I saw, 'Big Chico Burger' - I walked in, and they asked me what I wanted, and I said, "I'm looking for the best cheeseburger, in Chico" - turns out they serve American kobe beef from a local ranch, char-broiled, on an artisanal bun from a local bakery, with fries and a drink, for FIVE BUCKS (!). Hey. c'mon you atheists, if this ain't proof of The Big Guy, I don't know what is -- Blew me away, and they are close by. Surrounded by farms and with a large college population, there is a serious foodie vibe in this town. So, I have a patch of grass, jacks down, slide out, a quiet day, and the neighbors are friendly. Cheers, from Chico :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From: Share Long As for God, that too may simply be a word that ancients came up with to describe a certain kind of neurological experience. I find that a fascinating possibility for research as the ability to measure such becomes better. I agree, although I don't see science ever being able to measure all of what subjectively registers as spiritual experience. I do believe that much of it, however, will be found to be due to neurological brain farts -- neither "higher" or "lower," neither "good" nor "bad," and certainly not due to any experience of or intervention by a God. I think the growth of wisdom is a desirable thing, and something that takes place over a lifetime. I would call it the growth of spirituality. There may be instances of "flash", or maybe not. I really don't have a problem putting such experiences in the "good" column, and rating that higher than a life spent with no self reflection. YMMV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Wise President Putin
algae in a municipal water supply? with an odor? that sounds strange. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I'm about to go back to drinking it for a while because the city water has algae in it which they claim is harmless but stinks. I have a refer with a filter for water which helps but doesn't get rid of the algae that well. When I was at a movie last year they told me the drinks might smell because of the algae in the water. I was surprised that the pop machines didn't have a filter on they line. I seem to recall they used too. Maybe they do but it can't get rid of the algae. On 05/06/2014 08:14 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: I love, love, love, love bottled water.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Rick, I am glad the interviews are gaining a wider audience. I think they deserve that. I chuckled to myself though as I read your preparations for the interview. The thought that popped into my head was, "Does he think he is interviewing God?" I'm just a crazy SOB. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve.sundur@... Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 6:57 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just interview him! Well, he and I are both married, not gay, and there’s a big age difference, so that would probably be hard to arrange. But hey, stranger things have happened. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:rick@...> wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Downright humility-inspiring
The other day, on the radio, they had a piece about "something you changed your mind about". And they interviewed a guy, I forget who he was, who said he changed his mind about whether we, as humans, are really as insignificant in the cosmic scheme of things as is sometimes said to be the case. It just happened to be something I had been thinking about as well. Maybe we're not. His point was that, in at least our little corner of the universe, immense as it is, we can seem to raise anyone else. Anyway, it doesn't mean it needs to translate into some egotistical notion about our importance. It's just an observation. Pretty ugly graphic, I'd have to say though. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : For those who feel the need to post every so often about how important TMers are, or how important the butt-bouncers of Fairfield are, or even how important to the universe human beings on planet Earth are, here's a graphic to put things into somewhat more accurate perspective. It's a visualization of every human being on the planet -- all 7.2 billion of us -- piled up in the Grand Canyon. The video below the photo explains things -- literally -- a bit more... How Many Things Are There? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk How Many Things Are There? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eOcd06kdk Preview by Yahoo
RE: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris
Jesus Christ, Rick, are you going to propose marriage to the guy, or just interview him! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I’m going to read all of his books before even inviting him, and take notes as I go along, which I’ll share and discuss with you. Then I’ll carefully compose an invitation letter, which I’ll bounce off you also. So it may even be a year before the interview happens, if he agrees to one. But I would want it to be one that really did justice to the guy. From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisdeltablues@... Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:59 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Note to Rick Conderning his interview with Sam Harris Hey Rick, If you follow the threads from Lawson about Sam Harris you will gain some insight into Harris' world. In most debates and interviews he has to spend most of this time sorting out the misunderstandings about his position caused by people quoting people misrepresenting his ideas rather than his actual points in his books. Richard even posted a attribution to his book under statements from other people misrepresenting his positions, and this is very common all over the internet. If you get a chance to interview him your ability to state his actual points will be a huge rapport builder. And this seems like just an obvious point for any interview but controversial guys like him are more prone to people misrepresenting their ideas to make them look bad so he is extra touchy about this. Just focusing on his actual points that can be challenged for good reasons will make your interview a breath of fresh air for him I am sure.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
Just a friendly comment from the peanut gallery. You may think you don't have a hair trigger in this regard, but you might be mistaken. You also might want to examine which issues push your buttons and see if your reactions to the posting about such issues are in proportion to what is actually being discussed. Goose and gander type thing. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Bingo. One of the things that I don't think a number of theists or quasi-theists or theists-in-denial-that-they're-theists don't "get" on this forum is that what they call atheists barging into an otherwise pleasant conversation about God is that this "barging in" often comes after a few rounds of them hurling the word "atheist" around as if they were saying "Nigger!" or "Spawn of Satan" or "rakshasa." They actually don't *get* that they look down on atheists as much as they do, and that this fact pervades their speech/writing. IMO, giving them a little "taste of their own medicine" at that point is well-deserved. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin
hoo boy
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote :
If you a stupid enough or insane enough to believe that the banning of GMO's
is proof of the ME when Putin is invading another country and requiring Jews to
register as Jews then you need to go check into your local state mental
hospital.
On Sun, 5/4/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 1:57 PM
Ok Michael,
you wanted proof, there you have it! The ME in spades. I
did meditate twice this week, and I think that may have
pushed us over the edge.
And hey, I am not discounting, for a second, not for a second, the
beneficial effect of Shikantaza meditation, which of course
is a Japanese translation
of a Chinese term
for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of
theCaodong school of Zen
Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated
with the Soto school.
Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō
school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is
the largest of the three traditional
sects of Zen in
Japanese
Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It
emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no
objects, anchors,
or content.
The meditator strives to be aware of the stream
of thoughts, allowing them to arise and
pass away without
interference.
No, I am giving equal credit to
both.
Does this call for a
Pappy's Van Winkle for celebration?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
It’s
Official – Russia Completely Bans GMOs
thank you President Putin and Prime
Minister Medvedev. Jai Maharishi! Jai Raja Fagan! Jai
Maharaja! Jai Guru Deva!
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Great oppurtunity for rethinking
Slow down, slow down! I don't really care what you do. Quit making such
grand proclamations. I've an idea. At the risk of sounding like I'm preaching,
why don't you work on number one a bit, and just see you have some pockets of
bitterness you need to smooth out. n'est 'ce pas. (-;
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote :
I say this to you Steve and all my other critics here on FFL - If Marshy was
enlightened, and if the TMO does much more good in the world than harm, I am
willing to believe it, and I go on record that if those things can be proven to
me then I will reverse every criticism I have ever leveled against the TMO and
Marshy.
I will stop calling him, Marshy, Old Goat, lying son of bitch and all the
other names I have called him. I will become a spokesperson for the TMO,
telling my story of how I became convinced that TM is the best thing since
sliced bread.
I will spearhead a push to get TM in ALL middle schools, high schools,
colleges, universities and trade schools in the country and in all US
protectorates around the globe.
I will be part of a supreme effort to get TM in every single US military
facility around the world, I will ask that TM and TMSP become part of every
soldier, sailor, airman, marine and coast guard basic training and
I will ask that Congress pass a law that every single congressman upon
becoming elected must learn TM and TMSP. I would also have it further mandated
that before ANY important vote on the house and senate floor the entire
congress would meditate together for half an hour.
Before Buck, Nabby, Feste, Sri and Steve spontaneously ascend into heaven over
the idea of all of the above, thus far I see no proof nor even any credible
evidence that Marshy was enlightened, nor that the TMO does more good than
harm. Mostly I see and hear evidence of quite the opposite. Stories of Marshy's
arrogance, elitist attitudes, Hindu fanaticism misuse and manipulation of
people, and a great deal more of both personal experience and the collective
experiences of friends, acquaintances and strangers that the TMO mainly tells
us that all sorts of grand things are GONE happen, they are not happening now
really for a variety of reasons but they are GONE happen, so keep giving
generously and keep buying abundantly all our goods, service and nostrums so
all this fabulous stuff will actually happen.
Mostly the Marshy did and the TMO still today tells everyone to do it and buy
it just cuz we say its real and true, not because it actually is true and real
and good. They ask everyone to suspend their own common sense, their own wisdom
and ability to discern truth and just believe whatever they are told by the TMO
especially where what the TMO says today contradicts what was said yesterday.
They want everyone just to believe and pay up even when the belief is obviously
superstition such as hiding under your desks during a solar eclipse As to the
claims and questionable research, I have to quote the wisdom of the Turq - If
TM (and its adjunct programs) were any good, they wouldn't have to lie to sell
them.
----
On Sun, 5/4/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Great oppurtunity for rethinking
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 1:27 PM
---In
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
wrote
:
Quite simply, if
"Maharishi's knowledge" had been worth a shit
to begin with, such policies and the attitudes they spring
from could never have been born in the first
place.
Proximity to Marshy
and length of time spent both administering the Movement and
doing TMSP breeds arrogance, elitism, uncaring attitudes
about common people, greed and a general display of poor
behavior.
Or, it may be that you are
extrapolating your experience to the entire organization.
Not to say that there aren't plenty of examples of
such, but as usual, you are not interested in anything that
could be described as fair and balanced. If it doesn't
fit your agenda, you simply leave it out.
at the introduction of
Naharishi brahminism
is getting an thoughtful "reboot" to make the
participants more appreciative of Maharishi's
knowledge,
we have a great opportunity to rethink policies that
reduce
supperradiance by banning people from the domes for
"competing" with the movement or visiting other
spiritual guru types when they are not wavering their
adherence to core values concerning the TM and TM Sidhis
purity.
#yiv0531876808 #yiv0531876808 --
#yiv0531876808ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Ar
[FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin
Just a little note: I feel like when when mentioning Shikantaza meditation, as when mentioning the Saint, "May Peace Be Upon Him", that Shikantaza should not have to stand alone. You understand of course. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Ok Michael, you wanted proof, there you have it! The ME in spades. I did meditate twice this week, and I think that may have pushed us over the edge. And hey, I am not discounting, for a second, not for a second, the beneficial effect of Shikantaza meditation, which of course is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. No, I am giving equal credit to both. Does this call for a Pappy's Van Winkle for celebration? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : It’s Official – Russia Completely Bans GMOs thank you President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev. Jai Maharishi! Jai Raja Fagan! Jai Maharaja! Jai Guru Deva!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Wise President Putin
Ok Michael, you wanted proof, there you have it! The ME in spades. I did meditate twice this week, and I think that may have pushed us over the edge. And hey, I am not discounting, for a second, not for a second, the beneficial effect of Shikantaza meditation, which of course is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. No, I am giving equal credit to both. Does this call for a Pappy's Van Winkle for celebration? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : It’s Official – Russia Completely Bans GMOs thank you President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev. Jai Maharishi! Jai Raja Fagan! Jai Maharaja! Jai Guru Deva!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: One last set of thoughts for Curtis
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Rhetorical question. No need to reply. I was just amused that neither you nor Share can conceive of having a preference without the presence of some kind of hierarchy. I would suggest that this is pretty limited thinking. But if it makes you unhappy, stick with it. :-) Comment requiring no response: What I find odd, is that the person who just a day ago complained about someone coming in and spoiling a pleasant conversation is doing the same thing here. The only purpose of this last paragraph is to try to demean someone elses point of view. At least, that's the way I see it. Sorta like you can't disagree without a gratuitous personal dig.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Great oppurtunity for rethinking
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Quite simply, if "Maharishi's knowledge" had been worth a shit to begin with, such policies and the attitudes they spring from could never have been born in the first place. Proximity to Marshy and length of time spent both administering the Movement and doing TMSP breeds arrogance, elitism, uncaring attitudes about common people, greed and a general display of poor behavior. Or, it may be that you are extrapolating your experience to the entire organization. Not to say that there aren't plenty of examples of such, but as usual, you are not interested in anything that could be described as fair and balanced. If it doesn't fit your agenda, you simply leave it out. at the introduction of Naharishi brahminism is getting an thoughtful "reboot" to make the participants more appreciative of Maharishi's knowledge, we have a great opportunity to rethink policies that reduce supperradiance by banning people from the domes for "competing" with the movement or visiting other spiritual guru types when they are not wavering their adherence to core values concerning the TM and TM Sidhis purity.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: One last set of thoughts for Curtis
good points Share. what the Turq doesn't realize I think is that on some level, whether he wants to acknowledge it or not, is that his life is driven to gain more understanding, as is the same as most people. It is, as you say hard wired into us. And the funny thing is, that once you start having experiences of non doer stuff, etc., you really don't pay attention to them. you just let it happen, or not happen. what doesn't make sense, at least for me, is to make such a damn big deal about whether it is a big deal. It's not, unless you continue to make a big deal about it not being a big deal. (-: it's kind of like the only time you aren't aware of gravity, is when you are most under its influence. I think the spiritual game is like that. It propagates itself to some extent. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : turq, I think most humans have a hierarchy, if only in that they have preferred states. Your preferred state is to view all conditions as equal in value. But by that very preferring, you raise the state of no hierarchy to the top of the heap of states! Because the thing is, humans, at a fundamental level, cannot prefer or value more highly, what they even unconsciously hold as detrimental. My guess is that having preferences or hierarchies is hard wired into us for survival value. On Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:03 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Great information, anartaxius. Wolfram's theories kinda mesh with mine, in that I don't see any *need* to postulate free will when both the complexity and the seeming order we see around us can just as easily be explained by random collisions within a somewhat-ordered but fundamentally random system. One of the ways I think some "spiritual" people get a bit "off" in their thinking about determinism or a lack of free will is that they're trying to impose their hierarchical *intellectual understanding" of a certain subjective state onto the universe as a whole and say, "That's it. That's how it works. That is how the universe IS at its most fundamental level." I am speaking, of course, of the "Not the doer" experience. Most on this forum have heard about it; many have experienced it. I have, too. And it's an interesting feeling, being so "in the flow" of life that it seems as if you are a mere puppet dancing to someone or something else manipulating the puppet strings. I have NO PROBLEM with this feeling or subjective experience existing. I've had it myself. What I *don't* do is assign that subjective experience a *value* of being "higher" or "more fundamental" than any other subjective experience. "Not the doer" is, for me, Just Another Experience, Just Another State Of Attention. I think many "spiritual" folks have been taught that it ISN'T Just Another State Of Attention, it's the HIGHEST State Of Attention, and that one should "aspire" or "seek" to having it all the time. You pay yer dues on the spiritual path, and finally you get to live in this "highest state" all the time. That, of course, is the basis of Maharishi's "Seven States Of Consciousness." Completely and utterly hierarchical. As I've stated before, I don't believe that life or the universe IS hierarchical. And I don't believe that any subjective state of attention -- even Unity or Brahman as described by MMY -- is the "highest" or "best" or "most fundamental" state of attention. It's just another one. But if you believe this "Not the doer" feeling is *more* than a feeling, and how things "should" be when you've reached some supposed "pinnacle" of human evolution, you might come to believe that the subjective feeling is somehow "correct" or the "baseline" of existence and that you have no free will. I don't buy it. I think that the "Not the doer" thang, however interesting it may be, is -- as I said -- Just Another State Of Attention, and no closer to any fundamental "truth" about the universe than any other state. So there is no impetus on my part to want to believe that my personal "Not the doer" feelings were anything more *than* feelings. I don't have to try to postulate a lack of free will just because I've occasionally experienced something that feels like that subjectively. I don't buy the dogma that suggests that having an ego and a sense of self is in any way lesser than having a non-ego, not-the-doer sense of Self. They're just different states, that's all. No hierarchy or "better" about either one. From: "anartaxius@..." To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:11 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: One last set of thoughts for Curtis Based on ideas that began with the work of mathematicians Benoit Mandelbrot and John Conway, the physicist Stephen Wolfram has some interesting ideas on the nature of free will. Wolfram has been investigating simple computational systems that have very simple starting conditions and very simple rules which nonetheless result in
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Let me reply on behalf of Michael. "Ha! Proves It!. Just what we all suspected! Marshy tricked us all. Told us our meditation was the most important activity for the movement. But no, it was the kitchen activity. No doubt this was just a ploy on the his part to make us pay more for kitchen ingredients. Or, I know! He told us we needed to pay more for better ingredients, and the substituted cheap stuff. And no doubt Girish was there, making a note of it all." ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Before a meeting with scientists in Seelisberg Maharishi was asked; Who is the most important person here now. Maharishi replied: "the cook" ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Is this the same as "heads I win, tails you lose" I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. > This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a result of his upbringing. Go figure. Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds of problems? Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well. Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at a Zen Session. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
By all accounts MJ was a very conscientious baker. I suspect that his leaving left a void in the operation for a spell. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 5/3/2014 4:25 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: Is this the same as "heads I win, tails you lose" I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. > This may have some partial truth to it, because anyone can tell that MJ has some mental and emotional instability problems. The question though, is did he have these problems before he started TM or as a result of rounding, or as a result of his upbringing. Go figure. Another question is, why don't the people at MUM screen people for these kinds of problems? Everyone knows that the mental condition and attitude of the cook at a yoga camp has a direct effect on the well being of the camp participants. When you've got a cook with a negative attitude you are going to have some real serious problems. In one case, the bad food almost caused a revolt, according to my sources. It's bad enough to have to eat cafeteria food, but it's just an insult to get a sarcastic dish washer as well. Only the most advanced meditators are allowed to even get near the kitchen at a Zen Session. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Is this the same as "heads I win, tails you lose" I mean, many of your arguments are fashioned that way I think. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : you are wrong about that some aspects of the practice under certain circumstances leads to mental and emotional instability. To say what you are saying is to blame the victim - TM is not without side effects On Sat, 5/3/14, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:30 PM ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of "designer meditation" - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. I still say if you have hundreds of thousands of people doing something there are bound to be those who end up murdering people, dying, committing or attempting to commit suicide, winning the lottery or publishing a book. It has to do with statistics and probability. To try and "pin" mental illness or psychiatric breakdown primarily on the fact that someone rounded or started TM is a bit iffy. I've talked about this before with regard to those who go overboard on something. Do they go overboard (join Mother Divine, round non-stop for 6 months etc.) because they are obsessive or unbalanced to begin with or do they become unbalanced because they do too much of one thing? I am pretty sure if someone were to practice little old TM twice a day for 20 mins and ended up going stark ravers, they were bonkers to begin with.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Michael, why don't you post it. I mean, really, I'm a little burned out having read many of the smoking gun stories that you are certain prove the point of how bad is the TMO. My God, the latest expose of the mold in the vent at MUM didn't quite have the bang you might have expected. And then there was the courageous student challenging the teacher about a study. Turns out there were a few pertinent facts left out which may have bolstered or weakened the story. Did you hear that? Bolstered or weakened the story. But carry on oh Christian Soldier! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : not a tirade merely statement of facts - talk to Kyle like I suggest and see whats what On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:25 PM I am happy that you have found a technique that works for you. Thanks for explaining something about it. But I see that you have not lost your ability to tie any comment to your usual tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan Morris etc. I guess the Shikantaza form of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the adverse effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with TMO. Keep at it, and maybe you will have a breakthrough. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of "designer meditation" - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. ---- On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella. Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I am happy that you have found a technique that works for you. Thanks for explaining something about it. But I see that you have not lost your ability to tie any comment to your usual tirade against MMY, TMO, Bevan Morris etc. I guess the Shikantaza form of meditation hasn't done much to mitigate the adverse effects that seem to have accumulated from your time with TMO. Keep at it, and maybe you will have a breakthrough. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : How is this dropping names? I was giving you info on what Shikantaza is since you mocked it as being some kind of "designer meditation" - it has been around as part of Buddhist practice for centuries. I think you are taking pot shots at it just because I like it and you don't care for me since I am honest about what a liar and huckster Marshy was, what a liar and huckster the TMO leaders are and how much damage TM, TMSP and TM mentality can cause and HAS caused under certain circumstances. The suicides, attempted suicides, people admitted to mental institutions and more are no joke. Talk to Kyle Cleveland sometime - he was born and raised in the Movement, is all over the Net as a very vocal critic of TM and Marshy. Ask him about his experiences sometime and see how you feel afterwards. ---- On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:05 P Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella. Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. ---- On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Jesus Christ, what a little piker you are. My God, if dropping names was a means to enlightenment, you've arrived little fella. Between that, and your list of Bourbons, you've got the spaced covered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You are an idiot. Shikantaza (只管打坐?) is a Japanese translation of a Chinese term for zazen introduced by Rujing, a monk of the Caodong school of Zen Buddhism. In Japan, it is associated with the Soto school. Sōtō Zen or the Sōtō school (曹洞宗 Sōtō-shū?) is the largest of the three traditional sects of Zen in Japanese Buddhism (the others being Rinzai and Ōbaku). It emphasizes Shikantaza, meditation with no objects, anchors, or content. The meditator strives to be aware of the stream of thoughts, allowing them to arise and pass away without interference. On Sat, 5/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement: To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 3:18 AM .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Curtis - Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I guess I'm not that idealistic. I think there are people out there in the world who read the news reports about Oklahoma's recent "botched execution" and felt GOOD that the prisoner suffered. I'll cop to this. It bothers me, not a drop, that this guy suffered the way he did. In fact, in my cosmology, I think it probably helped mitigate some of what he has in store for himself. I assume you've read the chronology of the execution, and also are familiar with the details of the homicide he committed. The only problem I have with capital punishment, is the fact that some of the people are innocent. Otherwise, I support it. I don't see them altering these views in any way as a result of "some kind of science" trying to convince them that there is no free will.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Define "more developed" or "fully developed" for me in terms of human consciousness. I'll wait. What happens when people get older and wiser? Do you think that happens? I would say it does often happen. It sure happened to my Dad, and actually many if not most older people.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
I love these things that sound like 'designer', meditations or designer martial
arts techniques.
Our special tonight is shikantaza meditation, which we will do while sitting
in a modified Cheyenne sweat lodge, which has been purified and smoked with a
sandalwood reduction incense which has been placed on hexagonal charcoal base
from a banyan tree in central Tibet.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote :
I'd like to know how Curtis does this dive deep for samadhi meditation, I have
been doing some shikantaza meditation, but I just get vibbed with the bliss I
feel after a little while and then get up and go do something else. The bliss
starts after about one minute so its like, ok I'm here now WTF do I do? Bliss
gets tiresome after a while I find. Any guidance on that Curtis?
On Fri, 5/2/14, Richard J. Williams mailto:punditster@...>
wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM
Movement:
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
On
5/2/2014 5:12 AM, TurquoiseBee
wrote:
I
still continue to practice a sitting
meditation most days
-- not TM, not mantra-based, but eyes-closed,
dive-for-deep-samadhi meditation. I do it
because I enjoy
it, and after 20 minutes or so I feel
refreshed and
experience a clarity that I would possibly
miss if I
stopped. It's sorta like I've gone
back to the first days
of TM experience -- 20/20 meditation, done
primarily
because of its benefits in activity, not done
"for
itself." Although, to be honest, I often
don't get in two
sitting meds per day.
>
Another 180 - after over fifteen years of telling us
that meditation
is a fruitless effort with zero benefits. Go figure.
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
That is true. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Right. You just regularly barge into such discussions, announcing that there is no God and that anyone who believes there is is worse than a fool. Although I fully understand that some people get off on debating the existence of God and things like that, *nothing bores me more* these days, and thus I find that I rarely "go there."
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Re-Facilitating a Future and the New TM Movement:
Sounds like a description at a dog show. Hey, but then would it be best in it's class? Think about that for moment! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : corporate succession, indeed! As Sal put it so very nicely, "the organization itself is a badly run, thinly disguised religious dictatorship."
[FairfieldLife] Re: New York TM teaching is maxed out
My dentist has me going for a cleaning every three months to try to fend off further problems. And since we've discussing looks somewhat, the hygienist, Jessica, is about a 10, and when she tells me to turn my head to the left, I come face to face with..well, nuff said about that. P.S. Water pic, flossing, and electric brush are highly recommended IMNSHO. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Re " Dentistry is definitely a big for profit enterprise even if they say they're not.": Dentists have the highest rates for suicide of any profession. If I had to spend my life examining decaying teeth and breathing in halitosis I'd have checked out long ago.
Re: [FairfieldLife] New York TM teaching is maxed out
I've already reported that in my area activity has increased. But no, not 30-40 a day. Maybe half of that a month. I was responding to Mike's comment that business will be picking up for deprogrammers. Actually, I think Michael would consider that a business opportunity for himself. It seems he always nibbled around the edges of the spiritual game. Maybe he'll finally find a workable niche. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : So, what kind of numbers are we talking about? I remember the days of teaching 30-40 people in a day. On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 5:16 AM, "steve.sundur@..." wrote: Michael, I do enjoy your comments. You regularly ascribe to the TMO vast power. It's cute actually. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : "and the organisation itself is a badly run, thinly disguised religious dictatorship" Once again Sal, you have nailed it to the wall. The one positive of all these new initiations IF they exist is for the deprogrammers who will make a lot of money when the innocent victims realize they've been had.
Re: [FairfieldLife] New York TM teaching is maxed out
Michael, I do enjoy your comments. You regularly ascribe to the TMO vast power. It's cute actually. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : "and the organisation itself is a badly run, thinly disguised religious dictatorship" Once again Sal, you have nailed it to the wall. The one positive of all these new initiations IF they exist is for the deprogrammers who will make a lot of money when the innocent victims realize they've been had.
Re: [FairfieldLife] New York TM teaching is maxed out
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : snip And besides, we have a new generation hungry for anything better than what our plastic society offers them, or something to give them an edge. We all wanted that at some point, we also all wanted easy answers to life's problems and that's what TM promises more than anything else I can think of. Meditate twice a day and all your problems disappear! Really? Is that what I wanted? I started as a teenager, at the behest of girlfriend. It offered some respite for a few minutes a day to a difficult adolescence. I don't recall ever feeling that it was an easy out to life's problems. Nor did I ever present it that way as an teacher of the technique. Marvellous but demonstrably not true except for a few isolated cases perhaps. But I can't laugh because I fell for it myself. Spiritual desire is real and TM is a great way of getting the first hit that makes you hungry for more.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Watch Dav id Lynch’s hy pn oti c new video
Not a big DL movie goer. Wild at Heart may be the only one I've seen, but I liked it very much. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My favorite Lynch film is "Wild at Heart." Loved the scene where Willem Defoe gets his face blown off and the dog picks it up. Are there any studies about increased libido with TM? I know that "swinger groups" exist within the movement. Maybe goddess mantras also increase libido. On 04/29/2014 04:42 AM, salyavin808 wrote: I never saw the straight story. That was his first movie after coming out of the TM closet I believe. I remember them announcing that Lynch was going to be promoting TM and I suggested they do a season of his films on the Marshy Channel. They thought it was a great idea. I had to break it to them gently that most of his stuff is a twisted sexual nightmare but i still think it would counterbalance the horror of Bevan and the Raja's nicely. In fact I originally I thought he might have infiltrated the TMO to get some ideas for a particularly odd movie, that would be cool. Then I realised he was serious and predicted that he wouldn't make another shocker like Blue Velvet to avoid offending the sattvic TB's. Now I think all his "surreal" stuff since then has been pretentious drivel. He's either past it or all that TM has dulled his creativity over the years, instead of the opposite which is what he usually claims. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:sharelong60@... wrote : salyavin, imo Lynch's The Straight Story is also wonderful though very different than Elephant Man, but both having an underlying, non sacharine sweetness. On Tuesday, April 29, 2014 3:22 AM, salyavin808 mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : Color me not impressed by either the "music" or the video. This is the sort of stuff my friends in film school were doing in 1969. It's adolescent poseur stuff. I didn't get as far as watching the video. I think DL had some good ideas in the early days but his stuff seems really lazy now. In inland empire he'd have a conversation going on between two characters and someone will walk past in the background with a fish mask on. Yeah, it's technically surreal but so what? It isn't like he's making any clever points about the human unconscious , it's all just art for arts sake. And Mulholland Drive was a wasted opportunity IMO, all those great actors and he decided to "leave it up to the viewer to decide which bits were real or not" That sort of laziness makes even Eraserhead feel really shallow to me now. I bet Elephant Man is still good though, but that's about it. Rant over. "Penny Dreadful" is much better, and it's just television. :-) Yes. I'm looking forward to that one. From: salyavin808 mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Watch Dav id Lynch’s hypnoti c new video --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote : He says uniformly blissful from the very first one. Would he be such an evangelist if he knew what everyone else experienced? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:noozguru@... wrote : One wonder if this is what David Lynch's meditations are like? :-D On 04/28/2014 02:12 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: Mindy Jones is haunted by Wicker Man-esque masked figures in Moby’s ‘reversion’ of ‘The Big Dream’ Watch David Lynch’s hypnotic new video Watch David Lynch’s hypnotic new video Mindy Jones is haunted by Wicker Man-esque masked figures in Moby’s ‘reversion’ of ‘The Big Dream’ View on www.dazeddigital.com Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] The World's Highest Ranking Alien Believer
Based on that picture of her, I'd say it's pretty accurate. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Rather that admit the effects of all those years of cigarettes and seething anger, she calls herself “a fairly nice-looking dame.” Yeah…..right…and TM “reverses the aging process.” http://www.aaskolnick.com/junkyarddog/ http://www.aaskolnick.com/junkyarddog/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maharishi interview excerpts
Barry, I get that you are not into dialogue. That suits me fine. But do you realize how invested you are into a narrative that seeks to portray anyone who doesn't feel as you do, a "True Believer"? For example, you have this notion that anyone's take on these questions, other than yours has surrendered all faculties of discrimination, and is, by default, a "True Believer" Anyway, that's your privilege, but you've become sort of the mirror image to someone like Nabby, in that you have this knee jerk reaction to find a justification for your conclusions even if they don't make a lot of sense. So, slow down, everything's still here just as you left it a few days ago, for King's Day. Nobody suffered by not having their buttons constantly pushed. You don't have to get frantic about it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I repeat my first "take" on these quotes from Maharishi. Many of them are fuckin' Looney Toons. But to people who have been conditioned to see him as essentially perfect, they're perfect. And there is nothing that anyone can do or say that will convince them that *they're* not the sane ones, and that everyone else is *wrong*. In fact, because their egos get *larger* as a result of criticism, they'll believe even more strongly than they did before. It's just one of those mysteries of being human, I guess. Go figure. Go fuckin' figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does watching this symbolic wind constitute worship of Vayu?
"Clicking on the 'Show History Tab' in a conscientious and regular fashion has been shown improve the readability and comprehension of posts. This conclusion is the result of numerous experiences among participants on various chat sites and is endorsed by the Society of Better Readability on Internet Forums. Not to be confused with the group that endorses stannous fluoride." ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Seems to me placing the attention on a natural phenomenon as one would attend the mantra has to be at least as calming as TM. Dunno. Just wondering these days about how ancient meditation has to be.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does watching this symbolic wind constitute worship of Vayu?
Well, is wind not the same as prana, and there are different pranas at work in the body. I consider the workings of prana to be an unexplored area of physiology. Am I off track here? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : http://hint.fm/wind/ http://hint.fm/wind/ Any representation is, yawlp, a representation. But this one GETS TO ME. It seems, (okay I'm going to say it,) alive. I'm saying watching the wind symbolically in real time might constitute worship of Vayu (or whatever dynamic of the nervous system that is iteratively resonant with "the values of nature" that are symbolized by the concept: Vayu.) The wind is a phenomenon of nature that's older than life on earth and must perforce be something with which ALL sentience is necessarily attuned -- if only for the survival benefits. A very deep DNA code-dynamic must be dedicated to managing the individual's awareness of the importance of air/water movement. I wonder if looking at this Web page triggers or excites or activates communion or unity-type experiences.. It's a good bet, methinks, that we're all built from the ground up to be able to "become more attuned" with "everything" if we but get jiggy with almost any universal phenomenon. Looking at a fire, or candle or ? -- all can be said to be a worship of some sort. Anyone want to discuss?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Creationists thwart mammoth bid!
Who could not like Joel Osteen. Really, a good practical message, especially when he stays outside the overtly religious context, and talks about the daily issues people face. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 4/26/2014 12:23 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: in these parts Protestants don't even consider Catholics real and proper Christians > Joel Scott Osteen is the Senior Pastor of the Lakewood Church, the largest Protestant church in the United States, in Houston, Texas. Joel Osteen will be at the Alamo Dome tonight at 7:00 PM. There are lots of Roman Catholics around here too. Go figure. https://tickets-center.com/Alamodome/ https://tickets-center.com/ResultsVenue.aspx?event=Joel+Osteen&vname=Alamodome&venid=204&ppcsrc=1-HY-TX-Alamo-Joel+Os&nid=1&cid=40047415745&akwd=joel%20osteen%20concert%20tickets&mt=b&network=g&dist=s&adposition=1t1&device=c&ismobile=false&devicemodel=&placement=&target=¶m1=¶m2=&aceid=&random=3292295187387678497&htx=1&gclid=COfZ5u_p_r0CFSdn7Aod1VkAHA This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Creationists thwart mammoth bid!
In his case, he could care less about the age of the earth. If you asked him, he'd say,"I don't give a fuck". If you pressed him, he'd probably concede that 6000 years doesn't make any sense. And that's my point. Most of those strict bible believers, or those who are affiliated with them by default, seem pretty bashful about the issue. But since you asked about him, there is basically nothing he can't do electric wise. He's also a volunteer fireman, and has helped save many lives. He's also is the point man for a high profile construction crew. And he's a charming fellow. Sort of the epitome of what you expect from a country boy, in the (mostly) positive sense of the world. Oh, he also traded a gun for a retired Budweiser Clydesdale sometime back. Funny story: He invited me down to an auction he was having. It was just a bunch of junk. But the one thing, the only thing there that interested me was a Clydesdale horse shoe he had. And here I am bidding against some woman, who kept raising the bid till I dropped out. Turns out it was his mother. I said, like "really". ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : There really needs to be a work around for this issue for those religious minded in this regard. Cognitive dissonance is a bit of an understatement I think. I have some customers who belong to strict denominations but are mainstream in most other ways. Boy, do I steer the topic of conversation away from this issue, should it ever veer in that direction. I was invited to a country wedding of such a customer/friend recently. We had a great time. The groom had his gun tucked in his belt behind his back, and the pastor officiating made it a strong point that the earth was only 6000 years old. She of course was about five months pregnant. It was the second marriage for both. (maybe her third) The dinner served was the crispy chicken that you usually get at gas stations. This guy is a true country boy and we've been friends for a long time. And, the dude is smart. Now that is dissonance. Perhaps there should be some definition of "smart" if this is, indeed, the case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Bizarre story. It's hard to believe people still actually believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.That's a lot of cognitive dissonance you'd have to be coping with these days. Probably why these maniacs have their own "natural" history museum with humans and dinosaurs cavorting happily together.. Each to their own POV but it's easier to disprove Biblical creation than it is the tooth fairy. Everyone knows there are trees demonstrably older than 6,000 years. And if the Ark landed in Turkey, why can't you find kangaroos outside of Australia? I say they should have to prove the Earth is only as old as the Bible says or put up with the new state fossil. You can't go around controlling what everyone sees by banning anything you disapprove of because your religion tells you otherwise! Can you? Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bill http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bi... http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html When 8-year-old Olivia McConnell proposed a state fossil for South Carolina, she probably didn't expect her request to prompt a drawn-out fight wi... View on livescience.com http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html Preview by Yahoo
[FairfieldLife] Re: Creationists thwart mammoth bid!
There really needs to be a work around for this issue for those religious minded in this regard. Cognitive dissonance is a bit of an understatement I think. I have some customers who belong to strict denominations but are mainstream in most other ways. Boy, do I steer the topic of conversation away from this issue, should it ever veer in that direction. I was invited to a country wedding of such a customer/friend recently. We had a great time. The groom had his gun tucked in his belt behind his back, and the pastor officiating made it a strong point that the earth was only 6000 years old. She of course was about five months pregnant. It was the second marriage for both. (maybe her third) The dinner served was the crispy chicken that you usually get at gas stations. This guy is a true country boy and we've been friends for a long time. And, the dude is smart. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Bizarre story. It's hard to believe people still actually believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.That's a lot of cognitive dissonance you'd have to be coping with these days. Probably why these maniacs have their own "natural" history museum with humans and dinosaurs cavorting happily together.. Each to their own POV but it's easier to disprove Biblical creation than it is the tooth fairy. Everyone knows there are trees demonstrably older than 6,000 years. And if the Ark landed in Turkey, why can't you find kangaroos outside of Australia? I say they should have to prove the Earth is only as old as the Bible says or put up with the new state fossil. You can't go around controlling what everyone sees by banning anything you disapprove of because your religion tells you otherwise! Can you? Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bill http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html Creationist Debate Stalls South Carolina State Fossil Bi... http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html When 8-year-old Olivia McConnell proposed a state fossil for South Carolina, she probably didn't expect her request to prompt a drawn-out fight wi... View on livescience.com http://www.livescience.com/45060-creationist-debate-south-carolina-state-fossil-bill.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Portia de Rossi Pregnant
Well, it is funny to consider that she cheated on her at the invitro clinic. Slipping away for those afternoon assignations. Who was he!? And then pulling out a profile. "I couldn't resist that IQ. It drew me in" ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Michael, I haven't thought of it that way. But it's possible a male deva could have done it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Maybe they have a whole bunch of yogic flyers living around them and the unbelievable magic of the marshy effect got her immaculately pregnant On Fri, 4/25/14, jr_esq@... mailto:jr_esq@... mailto:jr_esq@...> wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Portia de Rossi Pregnant To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 25, 2014, 6:40 PM Anything is possible in any marriage these days. Gay or straight. http://www.inquisitr.com/1225474/portia-de-rossi-pregnant-ellen-degeneres-reportedly-considering-divorce-after-baby-shocker/ http://www.inquisitr.com/1225474/portia-de-rossi-pregnant-ellen-degeneres-reportedly-considering-divorce-after-baby-shocker/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The poetry of motion
WTF? (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Pendulum Waves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ Pendulum Waves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ Fifteen uncoupled simple pendulums of monotonically increasing lengths dance together to produce visual traveling waves, standing waves, beating, and... View on youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ Preview by Yahoo
[FairfieldLife] Re: Now Playing
Bo Diddley was a name I always heard, of course, but really knew nothing about, until I play those selections you had below, Richard. A real nice discovery. In high school I was a mild Grateful Dead fan. One of my best friends was an ardent fan. But I recall when Jerry Garcia died. feeling a deep loss, and also a renewed interest on my part in learning about him. I have him on a pedestal. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Excellent post. I just started studying him seriously this year when I was getting into Afro-carribian rhythms. I got his Chess recordings box set and dug in. Rhythm king. Now I include one of his songs in my sets and just lean on the rhythm using the guitar as a percussion instrument. Every verse is more hypnotic it is so much fun to sing. Who Do You Love I walk 47 miles of barbed wire, I use a cobra-snake for a necktie, I got a brand new house on the roadside, Made from rattlesnake hide, I got a brand new chimney made on top, Made out of a human skull, Now come on take a walk with me, arlene, And tell me, who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Tombstone hand and a graveyard mine, Just 22 and I don't mind dying. Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? I rode around the town, use a rattlesnake whip, Take it easy arlene, don't give me no lip, Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Night was dark, but the sky was blue, Down the alley, the ice-wagon flew, Heard a bump, and somebody screamed, You should have heard just what I seen. Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Arlene took me by my hand, And she said oh bo, you know I understand. Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? Who do you love? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Bo Diddley "If you ask me I'd say that there is nothing, just absolutely nothing, that you can do in your whole entire lifetime that will top the level of cool that Bo Diddley hit in this performance back in 1965." - Jason McHenry Bo Diddley- Live Performance http://youtu.be/IMZjAOoX6nw http://youtu.be/IMZjAOoX6nw Bo Diddley - 1955 45 RPM recording http://youtu.be/8XxGUIbYjmY http://youtu.be/8XxGUIbYjmY You Can't Judge a Book by the Cover http://youtu.be/Lch0o4wwGyw http://youtu.be/Lch0o4wwGyw One of the founders, if not the founder of rock 'n roll, Bo Diddley invented the rock signature beat, a simple five-accent clave driving rhythm. Hard edge electric guitar - one of the corner stones of rock. In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked him No. 20 on their list of the 100 Greatest Artists of All Time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Diddley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Diddley
[FairfieldLife] Re: Never underestimate Americans' ability to practice denial
No does not exist, at least here in St. Louis. It used to be on "The Hill", which is still home to most of the Italian restaurants. Thinking about it now, I can still recall some of the features of the restaurant. And my grandparents always sat where the waiter they knew would take care of them. I think the Ruggeri's restaurant moved to Troy, Mo. The other restaurant we used to go to was Kemolls, which was next to Sportsman Park where the Cardinals would play. That was two stadiums ago. But I still love toasted ravioli. The great mystery to me, is why it never caught on elsewhere. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I ate at Ruggeri's restaurant regularly as a kid. My grandparents used to take me there. And like most St. Louisan's, developed a love for toasted ravioli. That's wonderful that it still exists. Next time I'm in St Louis I'll check it out. The last time I was there was while attending MIU and we went on a "field trip" with the art department there. Great city. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Or their ability to prefer beliefs they're heavily invested in vs. a consensus of facts that dispute them... Staggering Number Of Americans Doubt Accepted Science http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/21/global-warming-evolution-and-the-big-bang-poll_n_5187624.html?utm_hp_ref=uk Isn't this sort of like that old Yogi Berra saying about eating at Ruggeri's restaurant, "No one goes there anymore because it's so crowded."?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Never underestimate Americans' ability to practice denial
Re: [FairfieldLife] Is Classical Theism Really the Strongest Version of the God Idea?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : AWhat I don't understand is Bawwy's lack of tolerance for those who chose to speak and think and write and contemplate about the existence of God. He simply dismisses it all as if he has it all figured out and would never consider any other possibility for how this existence is structured. In other words, he has closed himself off as if he was deaf, dumb and blind. Ann, there doesn't seem to be anyone here who feels the need to proclaim more loudly, "I Am An Atheist" than Barry. But in practice and belief, he seems more a classic theist. And perhaps this causes him some degree of cognitive dissonance. I say this because he seems to believe in an underlying intelligence. (classic theism) He believes in rebirth, and surfing along on the Bardo. (standard Buddhist beliefs). He doesn't want to take a stab at explaining how rebirth and the bardo might play out, preferring to use a blanket explanation that it plays out "automatically", not realizing that automatically does not preclude a precise intelligence at work. But I think the perceived "renegade" status he gets by stating he is an atheist is too hard for him to pass up. Even if he would be denied card carrying status. The other atheist here, at least seem more comfortable in that belief, (or non belief, I guess), and don't feel the need to repeatedly make that declaration. God Forbid, don't ask him to explain anything. That said, I do like him. You see, I do believe there is something akin to God but this is what I have come to as a result of living for 57 years and having experienced what I have experienced. I will take experience over argument or debate (although these are both good things) but it does not seem that I can come to any other conclusion based on brilliant yet unprovable theories espoused through dialogue. What I know is that life is big, mysterious and extraordinarily beautiful and horrific at the same time. However, I think underneath it all lies an infinitely embracing love and glorious perfection that virtually no one is privy to while we still live and breath here on Earth. So, debate away, compare ideas of great and not so great thinkers but I'll be out in the field stirring up dandelion fluff or inhaling the dander from some horse I'm grooming. Any of these things can bring us all to the same conclusions - none of which will be provable and yet the process of trying to discover and find out about God or no God is maybe more important than the answer.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Never underestimate Americans' ability to practice denial
I ate at Ruggeri's restaurant regularly as a kid. My grandparents used to take me there. And like most St. Louisan's, developed a love for toasted ravioli. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Or their ability to prefer beliefs they're heavily invested in vs. a consensus of facts that dispute them... Staggering Number Of Americans Doubt Accepted Science http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/21/global-warming-evolution-and-the-big-bang-poll_n_5187624.html?utm_hp_ref=uk Isn't this sort of like that old Yogi Berra saying about eating at Ruggeri's restaurant, "No one goes there anymore because it's so crowded."?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Another MIU shot
Michael, you had the movement by the balls when the crew threatened to go on strike for the banquet when you got fired. You had em by the balls. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The two guys on the left I don't remember - I didn't know them well at the time this was taken. Me, Danny and Bob Brady on the far right, a town employee. Also in the parking lot behind the kitchen. I am not sure who that is in the van peering at us, I bet it was a Capitol spy, checking up on us to see whether or not we were talking about satvic stuff.
[FairfieldLife] Re: MIU Photos from the past
Canna we please mixa some real chicken broth in the soup? It woulda make it so mucha tastier! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Me on the right, Danny VonPhilipsborn on the left, half German, half Hungarian. This was when Danny was the baker and I was his apprentice. In the parking lot behind the kitchen.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Doncha think you're being kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no intervention or supervision? I guess I missed this. I am sorry you feel I am trying to make someone uncomfortable because they don't believe as I do. I think that is an inaccurate assessment.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
Objection your honor. Answer calls for speculation from the witness. Sustained. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Well, if there were a disagreement between Big Bopper Bevan and Craig Pearson about some aspect of MUM's running, who do you think would win the argument? On Mon, 4/21/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 21, 2014, 10:26 AM Hey Michael, Most of what I know about the school comes from the annual publication I get listing achievements and donors about and to MUM.. (and yes, I am listed as making a small donation) But as I understand it Craig Pearson is the administrative head of the school. Now, whether he takes his orders from the Rajas, or Bevan, or if is able to work independently, I don't know. I do happen to know someone higher up in the school administration and talk to him very infrequently. But the impression I get is that those administrators handle to day to day running, without a lot of direct oversight or interference from the rajas. Of course, in the same publication, they also list the trustees of the university. They are many, and very few (if any) are rajas, IIRC. So, that may offer a different perspective than the one you are offering. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : an offshoot? What are you smoking? Let's see - the leader of the Movement, King-Pin Tony CALLS himself not only a king but the BIG king, he wears robes and a big ass gold crown - all the other leaders including Bevan are all robe and crown wearers - these asses RUN the Movement - if the rajas aren't in charge who is? The fact that you can't accept these guys have become the face of the new Movement is indicative of just how deep your denial runs. ---- On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 10:12 PM I think it's called the World Wide Web. The Rajas are just a weird offshoot of the main organization. I'm not sure what direct connection the Rajas have to academic life. As for due diligence during the time you were involved in the organization and people looking at it now, it's sort of like indicting the Collective Papers for being so low on Amazon's Book list compared to the guy's book that just came out about the murder of his fellow MUM student. A lot has changed in thirty years. The world just doesn't turn exactly the way you want it to Michael. You have to get used to that fact. Despite your earnest efforts to defeat the organization in every way you can, you may end up being frustrated. But I'm sure you'll stay at it. It appears to be quite a preoccupation for you. And really, if truth be told, it seems to have come on heels of your other failed spiritual ventures. Perhaps all that frustration got all balled up, and this is now the result. Just sayin' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You must be living with your head in the sand Share - the TMO masks a great deal of what it does from the outside observer including those who are prospective students. I have told the story of how I just a few months ago had a good talk with a young man and his mother. The boy was intent on going to MUM - they had been to visitors weekend and didn't even know anything about the rajas! I had been in the TM mindset for 10 years before I went to MIU and I had no idea of the stupid crap I would have to put up with while on staff - no one does unless they have been on staff or as a student. On Sun, 4/20/14, Share Long wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com"; mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 9:28 PM salyavin, in this day and age, however could a person join a utopian cul
Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities
or anyone for that matter ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : And you know what else. I gotta say that at first blush, your view and evidently the view of Buddhism sounds an awful lot like Classical Theism, in the broadest sense of word. I'd love to hear you address that. And no, I am not trying to sell it. I'd like to know how you see it differing. Forget about reincarnation. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Oh, and by the way, the whole impetus behind my post was that I didn't understand the way sal was using the term "entities". Once he said it was comparable to "components", it make more sense to me. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : "steve.sundur@..." And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that "there are zillions of ways" this could take place, or something to that effect. So, I guess that is what works for you. As for the "desperate" part, I think that is something you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a proper stopping point. You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess. In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in retaliation. Well, of course Barry. That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are critical of some of the things you are say are either: desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer -"Trying to Sell Me Something. If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone believing something different than you believe? Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut. Where did I ever say my belief in God was so strong? I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God. Are you really unable to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something? You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to make that happen. Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God. You, yourself said that there is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation. You know, the previous life experiences you've talked about many times. Here's what it is Barry. It is you who are afraid of this possibility. That' s why you are engaging in this "shoot the message episode" Be real about it Barry. Be willing to give up your beliefs if need be. You'll feel liberated. Didn't someone say that the other day? As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no intervention or supervision? Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be more fruitful. Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to come to. Anyway, gotta go now. Thanks for your comments.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities
And you know what else. I gotta say that at first blush, your view and evidently the view of Buddhism sounds an awful lot like Classical Theism, in the broadest sense of word. I'd love to hear you address that. And no, I am not trying to sell it. I'd like to know how you see it differing. Forget about reincarnation. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Oh, and by the way, the whole impetus behind my post was that I didn't understand the way sal was using the term "entities". Once he said it was comparable to "components", it make more sense to me. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : "steve.sundur@..." And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that "there are zillions of ways" this could take place, or something to that effect. So, I guess that is what works for you. As for the "desperate" part, I think that is something you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a proper stopping point. You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess. In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in retaliation. Well, of course Barry. That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are critical of some of the things you are say are either: desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer -"Trying to Sell Me Something. If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone believing something different than you believe? Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut. Where did I ever say my belief in God was so strong? I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God. Are you really unable to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something? You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to make that happen. Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God. You, yourself said that there is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation. You know, the previous life experiences you've talked about many times. Here's what it is Barry. It is you who are afraid of this possibility. That' s why you are engaging in this "shoot the message episode" Be real about it Barry. Be willing to give up your beliefs if need be. You'll feel liberated. Didn't someone say that the other day? As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no intervention or supervision? Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be more fruitful. Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to come to. Anyway, gotta go now. Thanks for your comments.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities
Oh, and by the way, the whole impetus behind my post was that I didn't understand the way sal was using the term "entities". Once he said it was comparable to "components", it make more sense to me. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : "steve.sundur@..." And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that "there are zillions of ways" this could take place, or something to that effect. So, I guess that is what works for you. As for the "desperate" part, I think that is something you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a proper stopping point. You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess. In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in retaliation. Well, of course Barry. That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are critical of some of the things you are say are either: desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer -"Trying to Sell Me Something. If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone believing something different than you believe? Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut. Where did I ever say my belief in God was so strong? I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God. Are you really unable to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something? You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to make that happen. Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God. You, yourself said that there is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation. You know, the previous life experiences you've talked about many times. Here's what it is Barry. It is you who are afraid of this possibility. That' s why you are engaging in this "shoot the message episode" Be real about it Barry. Be willing to give up your beliefs if need be. You'll feel liberated. Didn't someone say that the other day? As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no intervention or supervision? Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be more fruitful. Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to come to. Anyway, gotta go now. Thanks for your comments.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : "steve.sundur@..." And I'm saying you sound kind of desperate, as if -- as you admit -- forcing an imaginary atheist to be uncomfortable is your real goal. Well Barry, IIRC, your answer to this possibility was that "there are zillions of ways" this could take place, or something to that effect. So, I guess that is what works for you. As for the "desperate" part, I think that is something you like to pin on people when a discussion goes past what you consider a proper stopping point. You are the acting police chief in that regard I guess. In other words, it sounds to me as just *talk* about atheism has been so uncomfortable *for you* that you want to make someone else uncomfortable in retaliation. Well, of course Barry. That fits your narrative doesn't it. People that are critical of some of the things you are say are either: desperate, cult apologists, or, wait..the grand answer -"Trying to Sell Me Something. If your belief in a God is so strong, why is it so challenged just by someone believing something different than you believe? Oh, Barry, can you ever get out of your rut. Where did I ever say my belief in God was so strong? I've never said such a thing, and I've separated the discussion of reincarnation from the necessity of God. Are you really unable to deviate from your narrative that everyone is trying to sell you something? You seem to pin almost your *entire* reason for believing in God on your desire/need to believe in reincarnation. Great...I get it...you don't want to die, and prefer to believe that you won't, and in your view you need a God to make that happen. Read the discussion Barry. It's not about God. You, yourself said that there is no need to bring in God in explaining reincarnation. You know, the previous life experiences you've talked about many times. Here's what it is Barry. It is you who are afraid of this possibility. That' s why you are engaging in this "shoot the message episode" Be real about it Barry. Be willing to give up your beliefs if need be. You'll feel liberated. Didn't someone say that the other day? As I've told you, I don't believe in God, and yet I sorta suspect there is something to reincarnation. Millions of Buddhists feel the same way -- they believe in reincarnation and don't believe in God. Doncha think you're being kinda silly to try to make someone feel uncomfortable just because you can't conceive of reincarnation being an automatic process that requires no intervention or supervision? Barry, once you remove the lens that anyone expressing an opinion that you may not agree with, is not trying to sell you something, I think discussion will be more fruitful. Until then, I think this is the conclusion you are likely to come to. Anyway, gotta go now. Thanks for your comments.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
Hey Michael, Most of what I know about the school comes from the annual publication I get listing achievements and donors about and to MUM.. (and yes, I am listed as making a small donation) But as I understand it Craig Pearson is the administrative head of the school. Now, whether he takes his orders from the Rajas, or Bevan, or if is able to work independently, I don't know. I do happen to know someone higher up in the school administration and talk to him very infrequently. But the impression I get is that those administrators handle to day to day running, without a lot of direct oversight or interference from the rajas. Of course, in the same publication, they also list the trustees of the university. They are many, and very few (if any) are rajas, IIRC. So, that may offer a different perspective than the one you are offering. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : an offshoot? What are you smoking? Let's see - the leader of the Movement, King-Pin Tony CALLS himself not only a king but the BIG king, he wears robes and a big ass gold crown - all the other leaders including Bevan are all robe and crown wearers - these asses RUN the Movement - if the rajas aren't in charge who is? The fact that you can't accept these guys have become the face of the new Movement is indicative of just how deep your denial runs. ---- On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 10:12 PM I think it's called the World Wide Web. The Rajas are just a weird offshoot of the main organization. I'm not sure what direct connection the Rajas have to academic life. As for due diligence during the time you were involved in the organization and people looking at it now, it's sort of like indicting the Collective Papers for being so low on Amazon's Book list compared to the guy's book that just came out about the murder of his fellow MUM student. A lot has changed in thirty years. The world just doesn't turn exactly the way you want it to Michael. You have to get used to that fact. Despite your earnest efforts to defeat the organization in every way you can, you may end up being frustrated. But I'm sure you'll stay at it. It appears to be quite a preoccupation for you. And really, if truth be told, it seems to have come on heels of your other failed spiritual ventures. Perhaps all that frustration got all balled up, and this is now the result. Just sayin' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You must be living with your head in the sand Share - the TMO masks a great deal of what it does from the outside observer including those who are prospective students. I have told the story of how I just a few months ago had a good talk with a young man and his mother. The boy was intent on going to MUM - they had been to visitors weekend and didn't even know anything about the rajas! I had been in the TM mindset for 10 years before I went to MIU and I had no idea of the stupid crap I would have to put up with while on staff - no one does unless they have been on staff or as a student. On Sun, 4/20/14, Share Long wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com"; mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 9:28 PM salyavin, in this day and age, however could a person join a utopian cult without realizing it?! Sounds to me like someone who didn't do their due diligence. And if it's really as bad as the blogger claims, wouldn't he have noticed the trailer park etc. when he first arrived. Plenty of time to get money back or not enroll at all. I doubt that the blog is telling his part in all this. The students at MUM now are very different than the students who were at MIU in 1975. Back then many were TM teachers and or had already been meditating for a few years. Californians! Nowadays they're into David Lynch or sustainable living or organic food or some combo or these (-: As for me, I'm no longer on the inside and haven't been for almost 12 years, 7 of which I didn't even go to the Dome. Plus I have constant contact with my non meditating family so I'm aware of how it al
[FairfieldLife] Hey Sal, Re: Entities
I see what you mean about entities, or "components" And yes, you are right, introducing rebirth, or reincarnation does necessitate entities. You look at the accounts indicating rebirth and find them lacking. I look at the accounts and find many of them credible. And so, the point I was making at the outset is that if somehow these accounts are found to be credible, or if the preponderance of evidence seems to suggest such, or if such a time comes when something such as a causal body can be measured, then yes, I would say that an atheist would then be required to acknowledge that there must be some organizing body or entities at work to maintain order in this process.. I am not saying it proves the existence of God. All I am saying is that it might force a door open that an atheist might not be comfortable seeing cracked open.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
You can raise that up the flagpole, but I don't know if anyone will salute. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Rajas are central to Maharishi's organization, They are great people who are putting their time and wealth to accomplishing his goals for the world as whole. The way they dress is a sign of their commitment to his vision. It isn't any weirder than the traditional cap and gown of a university or any other kind of "drag" including standard business garb, which shows commitment to profit.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
I think it's called the World Wide Web. The Rajas are just a weird offshoot of the main organization. I'm not sure what direct connection the Rajas have to academic life. As for due diligence during the time you were involved in the organization and people looking at it now, it's sort of like indicting the Collective Papers for being so low on Amazon's Book list compared to the guy's book that just came out about the murder of his fellow MUM student. A lot has changed in thirty years. The world just doesn't turn exactly the way you want it to Michael. You have to get used to that fact. Despite your earnest efforts to defeat the organization in every way you can, you may end up being frustrated. But I'm sure you'll stay at it. It appears to be quite a preoccupation for you. And really, if truth be told, it seems to have come on heels of your other failed spiritual ventures. Perhaps all that frustration got all balled up, and this is now the result. Just sayin' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You must be living with your head in the sand Share - the TMO masks a great deal of what it does from the outside observer including those who are prospective students. I have told the story of how I just a few months ago had a good talk with a young man and his mother. The boy was intent on going to MUM - they had been to visitors weekend and didn't even know anything about the rajas! I had been in the TM mindset for 10 years before I went to MIU and I had no idea of the stupid crap I would have to put up with while on staff - no one does unless they have been on staff or as a student. On Sun, 4/20/14, Share Long mailto:sharelong60@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com"; mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 9:28 PM salyavin, in this day and age, however could a person join a utopian cult without realizing it?! Sounds to me like someone who didn't do their due diligence. And if it's really as bad as the blogger claims, wouldn't he have noticed the trailer park etc. when he first arrived. Plenty of time to get money back or not enroll at all. I doubt that the blog is telling his part in all this. The students at MUM now are very different than the students who were at MIU in 1975. Back then many were TM teachers and or had already been meditating for a few years. Californians! Nowadays they're into David Lynch or sustainable living or organic food or some combo or these (-: As for me, I'm no longer on the inside and haven't been for almost 12 years, 7 of which I didn't even go to the Dome. Plus I have constant contact with my non meditating family so I'm aware of how it all looks to non meditators. On Sunday, April 20, 2014 3:37 PM, salyavin808 mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Well salyavin, in all my years here, we've only had one earthquake and it's epicenter was over in Illinois across the Mighty Mississip, a river which supposedly has a fault line running down it. I'll have to ask some vastu dwellers about the homeowners insurance. PS btw, speaking of good questions, I think mine is a good question too: if this blogger is so unhappy with MUM, why does he continue being a student there?! As I said, he probably has his money invested in it, be hard to change to another one without losing any downpayments or even just getting on another course at this stage without starting again. Maybe he's got a lot of anger at finding out that he joined a utopianist cult without realising it? I've never been to FF or MUM but I know how the movement works and let's face it, the TMO is more than a bit weird. You may not think so as you are on the inside but the TM worldview is unusual and takes some getting used to for anyone. If you steadfastly refuse to adopt it then you will be unhappy. Is it possible to just go to MUM and not notice what everyone else believes?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
Well that does help Michael, at least in understanding where you are coming from. If you view that student's essay as both excellent, and as an an embodiment of truth, then I think are taking a kool aid of a different sort. I would say it implies you have a pretty low threshold for you would consider unbiased reporting. Obviously you don't see it that way. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Oh and it was one of the most ridiculous post you have ever made, this one. Of course I think what I post here has merit, why else would I post? On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 8:59 PM Michael, the issue is not whether or not to read your posts. That is what they call a red herring. And you're tactic of labeling everyone with whom you disagree as a "cult apologist" has, frankly, gotten a little old. The issue is whether or not you feel some obligation to take a look at what you post and see if it has merit, or how much merit it might have. Does that make sense to you? I say that because the piece you posted from the student about Utopia Park and the Pundit housing would come across to most any reader, either in or out of the TMO as quite biased. At least, that's how I see it. On the other hand, maybe that matters not to you. As long as it's anti TM, it's got to be good. Like Smucker's Jam. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : hey, I lived there when they had the pods - I bet I would have loved one-a those double wides in those days. I do like the juxtaposition of the pundits living quarters that look like the photos of the old Nazi stalags next to the "Utopia Park" - and the man raises some fair points, which you who are still seemingly attempting to find a reason to find something wonderful is happening in the TM world don't much like. If you find my posts so unpleasant why read 'em? ---- On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 5:13 PM Well, at least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who disagrees with you a cult apologist. It looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent essay is because it trashes something you don't like. Sort of like what Judy was discussing earlier. There is no issue of fairness or unfairness. No issue of whether there might be another side to it. It trashes something you like to see trashed so therefore it is excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is "afraid of the truth" Damn you've covered all the bases today Michael! but can you imagine if you were on the other side of something like this in real life? then I suppose it would be a different story. But on an internet forum, hey, no need to even attempt something approaching a balanced approach. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : E-cellent essay by a current MUM student - those who aren't afraid of the truth, click the link and read on! The photos are quite interesting. http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM Residential IronyA student of Maharishi University of Management, I’m bothered by a few things associated with the school.View on mumosa.comPreview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Well one could say you are knee jerk reacting, or that you are pot calling kettle black, or one could say you just dislike anything I say since I don't fawn all over Marshy and Company. No Michael, as I've said before, I think many of your criticism of the organization are right on target. I mean, do you not see Buck and Nabby's posts as being extrmly biased? Nope, since they love to love all things TM. Really Michael, of course they are highly biased, and impervious to any thing that goes against their beliefs. That said, I am fond of both of them, but I am not expecting anything new from anything they post. I think you bring something refreshing to the group, for that matter. And I do not, not have I ever labeled everyone who disagrees with me as a cult apologist. Ann disagrees with me from time to time and I don't call her that. I get the very occasional appreciation from Judy for correcting some minor technical mistake I have made, tho most of her posts she comes across like a pack of yapping chihuahuas - frenetically yapping at anything and everything just to hear themselves yapping. Barry has disagreed with me sometimes and I have never called or labeled him a cult apologist. Sorry, if I jumped to a wrong conclusion. So you are getting tired of something that exists ONLY IN YOUR OWN HEAD. I expect that all the corners of your awareness that harbor still a slavish addiction to Marshy and his bogus teachings get agitated when they read my posts. Again, when you are ready to take on ultimate freedom, just let me know and I will hep you set yourself free. And unlike the TMO, I won't charge you nothin'. Now how do you like that? Thank you for the offer Michael. Yes, I have plenty of issues to work on. When I get around to that one, I'd be glad to take you up on it. On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 8:59 PM Michael, the issue is not whether or not to read your posts. That is what they call a red herring. And you're tactic of labeling everyone with whom you disagree as a "cult apologist" has, frankly, gotten a little old. The issue is whether or not you feel some obligation to take a look at what you post and see if it has merit, or how much merit it might have. Does that make sense to you? I say that because the piece you posted from the student about Utopia Park and the Pundit housing would come across to most any reader, either in or out of the TMO as quite biased. At least, that's how I see it. On the other hand, maybe that matters not to you. As long as it's anti TM, it's got to be good. Like Smucker's Jam. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : hey, I lived there when they had the pods - I bet I would have loved one-a those double wides in those days. I do like the juxtaposition of the pundits living quarters that look like the photos of the old Nazi stalags next to the "Utopia Park" - and the man raises some fair points, which you who are still seemingly attempting to find a reason to find something wonderful is happening in the TM world don't much like. If you find my posts so unpleasant why read 'em? On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 5:13 PM Well, at least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who disagrees with you a cult apologist. It looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent essay is because it trashes something you don't like. Sort of like what Judy was discussing earlier. There is no issue of fairness or unfairness. No issue of whether there might be another side to it. It trashes something you like to see trashed so therefore it is excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is "afraid of the truth" Damn you've covered all the bases today Michael! but can you imagine if you were on the other side of something like this in real life? then I suppose it would be a different story. But on an internet forum, hey, no need to even attempt something approaching a balanced approach. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wr
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
Michael, the issue is not whether or not to read your posts. That is what they call a red herring. And you're tactic of labeling everyone with whom you disagree as a "cult apologist" has, frankly, gotten a little old. The issue is whether or not you feel some obligation to take a look at what you post and see if it has merit, or how much merit it might have. Does that make sense to you? I say that because the piece you posted from the student about Utopia Park and the Pundit housing would come across to most any reader, either in or out of the TMO as quite biased. At least, that's how I see it. On the other hand, maybe that matters not to you. As long as it's anti TM, it's got to be good. Like Smucker's Jam. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : hey, I lived there when they had the pods - I bet I would have loved one-a those double wides in those days. I do like the juxtaposition of the pundits living quarters that look like the photos of the old Nazi stalags next to the "Utopia Park" - and the man raises some fair points, which you who are still seemingly attempting to find a reason to find something wonderful is happening in the TM world don't much like. If you find my posts so unpleasant why read 'em? On Sun, 4/20/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 5:13 PM Well, at least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who disagrees with you a cult apologist. It looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent essay is because it trashes something you don't like. Sort of like what Judy was discussing earlier. There is no issue of fairness or unfairness. No issue of whether there might be another side to it. It trashes something you like to see trashed so therefore it is excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is "afraid of the truth" Damn you've covered all the bases today Michael! but can you imagine if you were on the other side of something like this in real life? then I suppose it would be a different story. But on an internet forum, hey, no need to even attempt something approaching a balanced approach. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : E-cellent essay by a current MUM student - those who aren't afraid of the truth, click the link and read on! The photos are quite interesting. http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.htmlMUM Residential IronyA student of Maharishi University of Management, I’m bothered by a few things associated with the school.View on mumosa.comPreview by Yahoo
[FairfieldLife] Re: Student Housing and More
Well, at least it makes it easy to see why you regard anyone who disagrees with you a cult apologist. It looks like the only reason you view this as an excellent essay is because it trashes something you don't like. Sort of like what Judy was discussing earlier. There is no issue of fairness or unfairness. No issue of whether there might be another side to it. It trashes something you like to see trashed so therefore it is excellent, and anyone with a dissenting opinion is "afraid of the truth" Damn you've covered all the bases today Michael! but can you imagine if you were on the other side of something like this in real life? then I suppose it would be a different story. But on an internet forum, hey, no need to even attempt something approaching a balanced approach. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : E-cellent essay by a current MUM student - those who aren't afraid of the truth, click the link and read on! The photos are quite interesting. http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html MUM Residential Irony http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html A student of Maharishi University of Management, I’m bothered by a few things associated with the school. View on mumosa.com http://mumosa.com/mum-stories/mum-residential-irony.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? That doesn't strike me as a very good hypothesis. I think a support network is already in place in terms of our survival skills when we are born because our community and family. That is how knowledge gets passed on. It's not a hypothesis, I'm not the one who believes it. I'm trying to disprove it by showing how it relies on convenient extra entities to function. For some reason, I am still not clear on the extra entities. The theory of reincarnation would be that we get reborn with tendencies that can possibly be adapted for benefit into our new environment. The skills that we had previously acquired may no longer be useful or necessary. And a support network is in place to train us in survival which passes on cultural knowledge, you aren't leaving much work for reincarnation to do! There is always room for further progress right? New challenges arise, earth conditions change all of which will require new skills, right? Well maybe that's not the goal of rebirth. Survival, certainly is a necessity, but perhaps a more important goal is to gain knowledge of both a material and spiritual sort. And maybe the two go hand in hand. I'm an evolutionist, the first thing I do is try and work out how something arrived step-by-step, I'm at a loss with reincarnation. What does the theory say is the first animal to get the ability? What is the threshold in conscious beings before you do or don't. And given that all life was bacteria for most of Earth's history how the hell did it start in the first place. Or am I barking up the wrong tree completely? I don't know how life started. Okay, all I can come up with is that there was a spark of some sort. I am inclined to think that the human development was on a different track than say the extension or evolution of bacteria. Again, the accounts I've read indicate human kind developed from an ethereal form around the time earth was formed and went from there. It is mystery I am clueless about. But as for developing skills, my best guess that it occurs over tens of thousands, or hundred of thousands of years. I don't see where there would be in conflict the theory of reincarnation. The past life theory holds that we are most likely to be born in a different time and a different place, so past life memories would be of limited value in that way. See what I mean about convenience? Why is it like that and not people being born nearby like our Scottish example was? I think if you will look at the examples as a whole, you will find that it works both ways. I don't know if Michael would have any insights along these lines, but I have read some accounts of people born in the south having strong memories of being in the civil war. So, if one wanted to speculate, I'd say there are no hard and fast rules about it. Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though. I am not exactly sure what you are saying about entities, but if the past life theory is true, then there's either a flaw that we don't have recall of our previous lives, or there is just a benefit to starting off fresh. But if evolution is true, then each generation builds on the previous, so when you are reborn, you plug into the current progress. What is the point of carrying a lot of unnecessary (outdated) information. Occams razor is what I mean. The theory of past lives seems to have a lot of components (entities) that seem to exist simply to make it harder to explain if you try and disprove it. This what I mean about a poor theory raising more questions than it answers, the world is a lot easier to explain without it. Okay, thank you for clarifying "entities". I guess we look at the same "data" or world, and come to different conclusions. I have a hard time making sense of things without bringing in reincarnation. Perhaps because I also believe in the notion of karma, and that karma must somehow get balanced out.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Well, as you know, there is an easy solution to both those things. But that still was pretty funny. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : My "declaration" is, essentially, "What could *possibly* be dumber than arguing with people you've never met on the Internet?" And the answer to this koan, of course, is, "Arguing with people on the Internet about shit that can never *possibly* be resolved, such as belief in a God." :-) From: "steve.sundur@..." To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this "don't try to sell me anything", or you are pleading, even begging people to not try to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with what you might happen to believe. At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while. I guess that's a relief. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide "proof" of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a "no down sides" belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to "defend" it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. Of course, day to day, certainly. But it's also nice to consider the who, where, and whys. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From: salyavin808 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide "proof" of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a "no down sides" belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to "defend" it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real "new start."
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real "new start." Amen
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From: salyavin808 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it? Why do you think it would be so helpful? I think it could be counter productive. Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? That doesn't strike me as a very good hypothesis. I think a support network is already in place in terms of our survival skills when we are born because our community and family. That is how knowledge gets passed on. The past life theory holds that we are most likely to be born in a different time and a different place, so past life memories would be of limited value in that way. Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though. I am not exactly sure what you are saying about entities, but if the past life theory is true, then there's either a flaw that we don't have recall of our previous lives, or there is just a benefit to starting off fresh. But if evolution is true, then each generation builds on the previous, so when you are reborn, you plug into the current progress. What is the point of carrying a lot of unnecessary (outdated) information. I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this "don't try to sell me anything", or you are pleading, even begging people to not try to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with what you might happen to believe. At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while. I guess that's a relief. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide "proof" of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a "no down sides" belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to "defend" it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sal wrote: A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few? Maybe for the same reason we often don't remember our dreams after awakening. I mean to answer that aside from something like, "the process is set up that way, because a recall of that nature could likely disruptive to one's present life". Aside from that, I would say the birth process is a somewhat traumatic event, which is followed a tremendous amount of sensory input, as we become accustomed to the new world we are born into. All of that would likely overshadow the memory of a previous life. Seems to me that's the same as it would be if there wasn't any reincarnation. The "process being set up that way" is one of those convenient extra's you need to make it work. Who or what set it up? And that is why I attempted to answer the question out that context. I understand the implications of that. My main questions are, where do the souls come from? There are twice as many people as there were 20-odd years ago. Do we get an upgraded animal soul? That might explain behaviour at football matches but how did it get started in the first place. Those are questions for which I do not have an answer. The best explanations I can come up is that the soul of man has developed over the course of earth development over eons of time. This is hypothesis put forth by Rudolf Steiner. It is the one that makes most sense to me, but certainly remains an open question. If there isn't a ready soul when you are born does a new one get made for you? Again, the best I can do is speculate. I don't know if the human soul comes together from different elements, including those from the plant, animal, and mineral worlds, but that would be my guess. And that it starts off rather primitive and works it's way up from there. Pure speculation on my part, drawing from different accounts I have read. Finally, how can we measure them? They must be measurable if they control what happens in our heads, or even just interact in some/any way. Well, I am not sure exactly what you mean, but yes, if a soul is the same as a causal body, or a subtle body of some sort, it would seem to me to be measurable, if we decide to look for it, and have some sort of instrumentation to do so. It always seems to me the essence of a poor theory is when it raises more questions than it answers. That isn't "denial" I'm just waiting to be convinced. Well, we are talking about things that are not easily measured, and we are not talking about the physical universe, so I think you are left with a lot of unresolved questions. Personally, that does not bother me. It requires a different kind of research. One that does not lend itself to scientific verification. On the other hand, I'm not exploring it to try to prove anything. Only for my own understanding. One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background. The most recent incident I recall is that of small child (American) recalling a memory of being a fighter pilot in WW2, IIRC. There didn't appear to be any mitigating factors such as the type you mention. Apart from the fact they live in a culture where WW2 is mentioned daily on TV. It's hard to be sure about things like this. But I have heard fascinating stories, you have to remember that they aren't studied by anyone objective, people might have their own reasons for blurring what happened with what they want to be true. It's a known problem with paranormal research that when faced with with something unexpected the imagination can run riot and people create all sorts of apparently convincing stories out of meagre data. It's the pattern recognition part of our minds that makes 1 + 1 sometimes equal 37. I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are certain not to have been isolated from the child. These stories appear in the mainstream media periodically, and there are also a number of instances that have been documented elsewhere. I am sorry I can't give you a reference for those. I am sure many of the stories are false, but enough of them seem able to survive the scrutiny to which they are subjected. And like a lot of beliefs about the mind it lacks any known m
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Sal wrote: A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few? Maybe for the same reason we often don't remember our dreams after awakening. I mean to answer that aside from something like, "the process is set up that way, because a recall of that nature could likely disruptive to one's present life". Aside from that, I would say the birth process is a somewhat traumatic event, which is followed a tremendous amount of sensory input, as we become accustomed to the new world we are born into. All of that would likely overshadow the memory of a previous life. One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background. The most recent incident I recall is that of small child (American) recalling a memory of being a fighter pilot in WW2, IIRC. There didn't appear to be any mitigating factors such as the type you mention. I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are certain not to have been isolated from the child. These stories appear in the mainstream media periodically, and there are also a number of instances that have been documented elsewhere. I am sorry I can't give you a reference for those. I am sure many of the stories are false, but enough of them seem able to survive the scrutiny to which they are subjected. And like a lot of beliefs about the mind it lacks any known mechanism about how it might work, which doesn't mean it can't but it would also have to explain why it works so rarely. Tricky for something physical. If that's what it is. Everyone dreams for instance. I imagine that it would be anomalies such a these that might be able to puncture a hole in belief that these things are just a fabrication of the mind. Certainly I recommend subjecting these accounts to a rigorous examination. Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it? Why do you think it would be so helpful? I think it could be counter productive. If it is the case that there is rebirth, I think there is something to be said for a fresh start. (-:
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. "Science works in mysterious ways" or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. Denial about what? Denial that we come into this world not as a blank slate, but with tendencies and predispositions that shape our lifetime. Who passes off things as a weird coincidence? How do we explain things like a child being obsessed with events that took place before he was born, and knowing details about such events when he has had no exposure to them. How does something like that occur? So what if not everything can be explained NOW. Does that mean we should chuck out what we have worked out? No, but what I am saying is that there are things that don't appear to be within the purview of science to explain, at least anytime soon. And so, if we want to understand them, we need to work out some theory. And the theory that I have worked out in my mind, is that we have been here before, and the "before" shapes our experiences "now". Now for the record, this may not be anything that needs to be known for our daily goings on, but they are entomological questions that we all think about to one degree or another. or at least I do. We'll wait. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. > Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is that reincarnates and what reaps the karma? This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. "Science works in mysterious ways" or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. We'll wait. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. > Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is that reincarnates and what reaps the karma? This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on losers?
Michael, I don't know if I was so much a true believer in that I surrendered all my analytical skills. Yes, I believed in the message, and spread it pretty effectively I think. That is to say the basic technique of TM. Perhaps, like many, I was searching for something "more" back in the day, and TM seemed to be the answer for that. And so, I became a teacher and graduated from MIU. Throughout that time, there were aspects of the organization that I found ridged and a bit misguided and so it lost some of its charm for me. But there was no single event that caused me to become disillusioned. In fact I've mentioned that after I graduated in 1981, I continued to do group program until the time I got married and had a child. And now, I feel as though that spiritual journey has entered a different phase. As far as my mediation, I still do that after work before I come home, or after dinner when I feel a need. I find it relaxing, although I don't do it in the context of a spiritual technique, if that makes any sense. And again, I feel the spiritual path is what makes life meaningful, but that path take on many forms. My wife is a pretty devout Catholic, and I think she has been served well by her adherence to that practice. Thanks for the inquiry. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Steve, I may be wrong but didn't you recently allude to you being a real true believer at one time who became disillusioned with certain things about TM or at least with the TMO? Would you mind telling what aspects you became disillusioned with and what aspects you are still alright with? ---- On Sat, 4/19/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on losers? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 19, 2014, 1:49 AM ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : And *this* gets me to thinking about whether Maharishi always pitched TM to losers and people with problems and low self esteem because they become the best disciples. And *disciples* is what he was looking for. Or is it possible that for whatever reason the generation that responded most strongly to Maharishi's message was a generation that was searching for something different. Is it possible that this may have been a reason, or do you prefer just to go with the low self esteem, loser scenario. And is it possible that somehow you have gotten more jaded in your outlook on life such that everything to do with TM, at least, gets reduced to the worst possible interpretation. This is after all an organization that you left more than 40 years ago, and yet you are one of the most active participants in a forum which has this organization as it's focus. I don't know if the TB experiment you allude to regularly really makes sense. You appear to have a pretty big investment in anything, and everything TM. Am I wrong about that? Think about it. Does the TMO really spend any energy trying to market TM to "regular people," who have few problems in life and are just looking to enjoy it more? They do not. They focus on People With Problems. Kids doing badly in school. Criminals locked away in prisons. Veterans with PTSD. Can't this be seen as a continuation of a long-standing trend to look for prospective new students among populations who are more likely to be easy to convert into True Believers and thus become disciples? It's just an idea. YMMV.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : With all due respect, Steve, you seem to have been infected with JudyRobinitis, and expect me to argue with you just because you want to argue. I posted what I had to say, you had the opportunity to post what you had to say in response, and you did so. I even answered once. I don't see that I "owe" you anything more as "follow up," just because you want to turn it into some mock "debate" that you feel you can "win." If you have more to say, say it. The fact that you weren't able to put everything you wanted to say into your first reply post does not obligate me to get involved in a longer series of posts with you. Frankly, whenever someone does, you tend to just repeat yourself, rather than introducing anything new. I'd rather skip that part and stand on what I said originally. If you don't like what I said or disagree with it, feel free to post more about that to your heart's content. That doesn't require me to participate. It is not problem Barry. I am only doing what you are doing - putting something out there. I do not care if you reply or not. I am sorry you interpret it as if am trying to engage you, or have some expectation that you need to reply. I think you may have developed some hyper sensitivity in that area. BTW, I was expecting the comparison to Judy to come up at some point. Now, throwing in Robin, well that was a little unexpected. (-:
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From: "steve.sundur@..." To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : And a little of mine. I'm an atheist for purely pragmatic, Occam's Razor reasons. "No need to postulate a God to explain existence" is a simpler and more efficient explanation of the universe than "A God was/is required for it to exist." Actually, I think about Occam's Razor when I am trying to make sense of these things. And it's often the everyday occurrences that come to mind. And yes, I think the possibility that there is life after death, that we have a soul, and there is rebirth, are the garlic to the atheist. (I did like that phrase). And I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation of how people develop certain tendencies or predispositions when there is no exposure to such experiences. In many cases the most sensible explanation I can come up with, is that there is such a thing as rebirth. I consider that *one* possible explanation, but far from the only or most likely one. *Everyone* has "tendencies and predispositions," and they could come from anywhere. Jeez, that doesn't say much does it. I mean if you take a logical approach, and if you assume a tabla rasa, then no, it can't just come from anywhere. So, I think that's a pretty lazy approach, but hey, it takes care of the issue quickly. And yes, I don't think an atheist wants to go there, because it opens the door to the notion that there is some sort of organizing power at work. What do you think? I don't think that the concept of human birth-death-rebirth requires any more "organizing power" than the concept of annual plants blooming, dying after producing seed, and then blooming again. There is no need to supply a Woo Woo explanation for what could be a completely automatic function. Again, I find that pretty lame. Organizing power just coming about in a random fashion? Okay, if that works for you. I come to a different conclusion. On the other hand, you can dismiss such anomalies as this as pure coincidence or genetics. Maybe that's a good enough explanation. The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. That would be fine with me. I am trying to go about understanding things, like most of us. And for me, I've come to the conclusion that there is a higher power at work, even if there is much I don't understand about it. And I have come to the opposite conclusion. End of story. It would seem that there is nothing further to discuss, unless you feel the need to try to convert me to your conclusion. Me, I feel no such need. Believe whatever you want. Barry, it is you who have lost your edge. You would be well advised not to bring up subjects or issues that you are unwilling, or unable to follow through with. And you may not be aware, but I feel compelled to point out that it is you who play the TB card as your "get out of jail free card"
[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Hey Curtis, everything going pretty well on this end. Had softball practice tonight for our company team. We got trounced last week. Some comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hey Steve, how you been brother? Comments below --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the discussion on highly abstract issues. Issues that can't really be resolved one way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground. C: This surprised me. I wonder who you mean here. I consider myself and atheist and have talked about a wide rage of topics in my time here. Do you consider talking about higher states a discussion on solid ground? No, what I mean is that in discussions about belief and God, I prefer to examine some of the anomolies that crop up in everyday life that may shed light on the topic, rather than dealing in a lot of abstractions. I think I list some examples below. My guess is that the line of reasoning some atheists follow in discussing things isn't your groove so it seems more abstract than a discussion about god or enlightenment which you are more familiar with so it seems more solid to you. Just a guess. But this is a pretty philosophically oriented forum by design with a propensity for personal attack so it doesn't surprise me that most people keep things less personally vulnerable atheist or spiritual. Well, I guess what I am saying Curtis is that I like to stick close to my actual experience, and don't find a lot of value in discussing highly philosophical concepts that may continue without much chance of resolution. I just lost interest in this sort of thing at some point . If this is a sign of intellectual immaturity, then I guess I am guilty. S: For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory that we are born with a "blank slate"? C: Genetics has refuted this pretty thoroughly, as has neuroscience. It was Locke who proposed this idea but it hasn't really held up. And I guess this is exactly what I am pointing out. Genetics is said to refute something as well as neuroscience but there everyday examples of anomolies that can't be explained. I am sure you read about them periodically as I have. And you can take NDE off the table as far as I'm concerned. Too controversial to use as an example. S: Do the atheists believe that when we die, it all goes to black. C: I didn't get any official memo on this so I'll have to give you my best personal guess. For me I've noticed that it doesn't take much brain imbalance for me to go to black so I'm guessing that when the brain stops functioning it isn't gunna be positive for my conscious experience. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary including near death experiences which I prefer to call "not dead' experiences. Right, it is perfectly fair to say, "there is no evidence to the contrary". But I'm always curious if this is what people actually believe. On the other hand, I guess one can believe whatever science has discovered up to this point. That seems rather limiting to me. But I have no objection. S: You can always say, "we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if it's what they "believe". C: All of us believe things based on reasons that we value. Using the term evidence makes it sound more clinical but we all have an epistemological system with criteria whether conscious or not. No one believes everything we pick and choose according to our criteria. S:I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two assumptions. C: Plenty for the tabla rass idea, for life after death, not so much for me. Yes, good point. Thank you. S:And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, "there is so much we don't know about genetics", or "there is so much we don't know about how the brain works", which sounds a lot like, "God works in mysterious way". Now , the "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't do it for me either, but neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often used here. Often just a lame default, I think,. C: I see plenty of difference. When a person says that there is a lot we don't know about genetics it is in the context of a specific plan to find out using a method. The fringes of what we know and don't know are mapped out carefully and choices are made for where is the best area to put resources to find out. They are only the same as saying God works in mysterious ways out of the context those phrases are used. I don't think religious people use that as a catchphrase for all the things we don't know do they? I think they use it as a physiological balm when life circumstances serve up something inconsistent with a loving god watching over us. It is his get o
[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Thanks for your comment Sal. I think many of us just like to ponder the issue, when we have some free time to think. And it remains open issue, at least for me. It is a shame when some try to polarize it, instead of bandying it about and maybe gaining some insight. That takes place on both sides here, I think ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the discussion on highly abstract issues. Issues that can't really be resolved one way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground. For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory that we are born with a "blank slate"? Do the atheists believe that when we die, it all goes to black. Good questions, speaking entirely for myself - as atheists (as far as I know) aren't a gang with a set of instructions about what threshold of beliefs you need to reach before being a member - it's more about just not having a belief that there has ever been any sort of creator and relying instead on both uncertainty where necessary and confidence where appropriate. Everything is subject to review as more information comes to light, including whether or not there is any sort of god. But nobody actually knows whether there is one and given the apparent lack of necessity and amount of better explanations for god's traditional roles I know where I'd place my money. I like the idea of life after death though, it'd be cool to wake up in heaven or on the next stage of the computer game we all might be playing. I also like the idea of reincarnation be nice to know I may in some way get another go at this.But looking at what we know about animals and brains and evolution I'd have to say it isn't very likely. In fact, if I was a gambling man, I'd say the odds weren't worth much of a stake. But there might be something we don't know of course. It's a case of finding out later with that one but don't hold your breath. You can always say, "we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if it's what they "believe". I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two assumptions. And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, "there is so much we don't know about genetics", or "there is so much we don't know about how the brain works", which sounds a lot like, "God works in mysterious way". Now , the "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't do it for me either, but neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often used here. Often just a lame default, I think,. I would say that the progress that has been made in studying consciousness in a short time has been rather impressive. Given the power of the scientific method to get to the bottom of things I would expect to get a working model of consciousness and self awareness very soon. We know where thoughts occur, what part of the brain needs to be active in order for consciousness to function (and how to knock it out), if it's possible to do it then we will. Unquestionably. The brain is after all another physical structure. .Unless there is something really unusual going on. You have to look at it from an evolutionists perspective, there haven't always been brains and you can trace their growth from early on in history, it shouldn't be too hard to build a graph showing which animal has which level of awareness. We seem to be the only one with the ability to sit back and think about it. That's the only difference I can see with us: we have a metaphorical inner life and can make up abstract ideas like afterlife's. How we got that adaptation is a mystery but maybe not such a big one. And of course, having an explanation of the consciousness "hard" problem doesn't mean we are going to be able to easily fit it to our own experience. And I expect there will be a lot of people who refuse to even try. So it isn't really lame, just a statement that there are still mysteries. And mysteries that I refuse to fill with woo woo. So, that would be my take on the issue. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word "atheist" -- spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing believers however they wish. Anyway, it's like the believers perceive the atheists
[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Barry, I did believe in God. Then did not, although always held out hope that there was God. Then doubted the TM concept of Being, or my take on it. The slightly more abstract concept works better for me. But when I give up even Being or some sort of sense of a fundamental energy that does structure life in the universe, then I feel some real sadness. Been struggling with this for years now - wanting to believe in something out there, something good and loving, while reading all the brain stuff about how we can nudge our brains to shift a bit and then see and feel things that seem spiritual/religious/universal/blissful/loving/farout. I think much of the struggle, for me, is giving up the idea that there is a soul and it evolves from life to life. I really really want that to be true! For me, a bit of magical thinking makes me happier. Recently, I have let it all go and given up on the intellectual struggle and just settled into knowing that there are ideas and "beliefs" that make me feel good, a deep inside my gut feeling of "ok." So that is where I am now - believing "more" than I did the last 20 years, but not reverting back entirely to the TM and preTM days. I will continue to read all the brain stuff and enjoy it, but somehow I don't feel there is as much of a contradiction between that and having some beliefs that assume the universe is not only orderly but a bit caring, somehow. How Somehow? I don't know. The key is accepting "not knowing" - which leaves lots of wiggle room and flexibility. Hey Joe, that makes a lot of sense. I think many of us are in that boat. Somewhere along that spectrum. So, I do think there are benefits to believing - if not in God, then in something that gives extra meaning to our lives. Things are hard here, people suffer, they get sick, lose loved ones, are hungry and cold. You know. If belief in God or anything makes life seem softer, or gives people hope, then it can be a good thing. and if there really is nothing at all there and we rejoin the swirling soup of particles that make up the the universe, then having some wishful thinking beliefs to soften the journey thru human life does have benefits. Community, rituals, comfort, feeling protected, giving reasons for the harshness which makes it easier to bear. We all know when religion is not a good thing - if that belief narrows down the heart. But if the beliefs open wide the person's behavior and thoughts, I think it is a great thing. Something I would never want to take away from them. I think you can be Christian or Jewish or whatever, believe it all, and yet still be open and accepting. This is good for some people. Again, I think the key is being able to accept "not knowing for sure," even with religion. If the believer has some humility about their knowledge and beliefs, and can admit to not knowing for sure about the details, then it can work well. I have friends who don't believe at all, in anything. They are wonderful people, ethical, generous, liberal. Yo But believing in something or being religious does not have to mean you are a fundamentalist wackadoodle, either. Most people I know who are religious are not offended by atheism. Uncomfortable, maybe. But not defensive. Well said Joe.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on winners ?
Michael, you once offered your services to help me get over my TBerness. I now make the same offer to you. Lesson One: Maharishi was never a God, and is not God. He did not possess supernatural powers and never claimed to have them. Now, I realize that this may be hard for your to accept. You act more like a spurned lover who has put the object of his affections on a unrealistic pedestal that could never be ascended. And now that this object of your affections has come up short, you are unable to get over the disappointment, and have become bitter. Let me know if I can help, and maybe, just maybe we can make some progress and move forward. Your Friend in Recovery, Steve ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : more like the CIA was never interested in TM to begin with and Marshy was a superstitious paranoid con artist. If he was so convinced the CIA was dogging his tracks, why didn't he use some of his enlightened powers to run 'em off, or call on Shiva to destroy them? I mean, if Shiva could make his own frozen pecker appear outside Marshy's bedroom when Marshy was in his dotage, surely he could have done the Old Goat that little favor. On Fri, 4/18/14, nablusoss1008 mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on winners ? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 18, 2014, 12:18 PM It's a tricky question. First of all the CIA lost interest in the TMO already 29 years ago since they found it is a harmless org. The people at Langley are not stupid and only started their inquiries because that peanut-farmer asked them to. Plenty of people were on their payrolls at the time including some Initiators and members of Purusha. One fellow I know was caught red-handed when posting a report in a mailbox during a project in Asia. Maharishi didn't become the least upset and simply asked the fellow if he would give up his association with the CIA and continue to work for us, he agreed and is still fulltime.Then there is the issue with that Lama fellow. Unfortunately he is next to broke and has little funds to spare as most Governments sees him as a clown.My thinking these days is that the naysayers and dwellers in the comfy old outdated systems about to crumble, so furiously opposing change are not paid for their role. At least not that I am aware of. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Again just for the edification of the "lurker press," Perfect TMer Nabby should remind them that -- as he has said here many times -- many of the TM critics here are being paid by the CIA. It is still an open question which Overlord pays better -- the Dalai Lama or the CIA. And there is the question as to whether some of them are "double-dipping" and being paid by both Overlords. Perhaps Nabby can answer these nagging questions for us. From: nablusoss1008 mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on winners ? By asking for donations to finance free Initiations David Lynch takes from the rich and gives to the poor, a modern day Robin Hood. No wonders the devotees of stale, rigid and outdated religions representing the old ways of doing things hate him. Unfortunately the representatives of their outgoing energies are plenty here on FFL. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : The David Lynch Foundation offers TM instruction for free to people in "at risk" groups, but the $2500 price tag was originally set by Maharishi to entice wealthy people and only wealthy people to learn TM. Weren't you complaining about how insanely high that price tag was? Seems to me that no matter how TM is marketed and for what price and for whichever group of people -the homeless, war refugees, students in El Barrio watching their cousins kill their cousins, or world famous actors and actresses, CEOs worth as much as small countries, etc.- you'll find a reason to kvetch. It's just an idea. YMMV. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : One of the things I've noticed over the years is how many long-term TMers say things like, "I'd be dead if it weren't for TM," or "TM saved my life," or "TM cured me of my depression/anxiety/suicidal thoughts/mental illness/whatever." I've always found these claims difficult to relate to, because I didn't have anything to "cure" or "get over" when I first started TM. I had already left drugs behind me, having discovered them back when LSD was still legal and came in a bottle with Sandoz on the label
[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does TM seem to focus on losers?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : And *this* gets me to thinking about whether Maharishi always pitched TM to losers and people with problems and low self esteem because they become the best disciples. And *disciples* is what he was looking for. Or is it possible that for whatever reason the generation that responded most strongly to Maharishi's message was a generation that was searching for something different. Is it possible that this may have been a reason, or do you prefer just to go with the low self esteem, loser scenario. And is it possible that somehow you have gotten more jaded in your outlook on life such that everything to do with TM, at least, gets reduced to the worst possible interpretation. This is after all an organization that you left more than 40 years ago, and yet you are one of the most active participants in a forum which has this organization as it's focus. I don't know if the TB experiment you allude to regularly really makes sense. You appear to have a pretty big investment in anything, and everything TM. Am I wrong about that? Think about it. Does the TMO really spend any energy trying to market TM to "regular people," who have few problems in life and are just looking to enjoy it more? They do not. They focus on People With Problems. Kids doing badly in school. Criminals locked away in prisons. Veterans with PTSD. Can't this be seen as a continuation of a long-standing trend to look for prospective new students among populations who are more likely to be easy to convert into True Believers and thus become disciples? It's just an idea. YMMV.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : As an example, if there is a God, and He/She/It has a PLAN for all of this, how is it that all these atheists aren't part of it? Were they created by someone/something else? What exactly is this "else?" And this is saying nothing about stuff like plagues, floods, earthquakes and other natural disasters. If you're an atheist, you get to look at these things and say, "That's a real pity, but shit happens." If you're a Believer, you have to say, "That's a real pity, including the fact that God made it happen. But it's not our place to question WHY He/She/It made it happen." If you're a believer you "have to say.."? Why would that be? It's just as easy to say the plan was set in motion, and all bets are off. Maybe that's a distinction you don't care to make , because it might poke a hole in some stereotype you hold for believers. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word "atheist" -- spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing believers however they wish. Anyway, it's like the believers perceive the atheists as a *threat*, and as if by believing what they do and daring to say it aloud or write it somewhere they are trying to *take* something from them. I don't get this. *What*, after all, could an atheist "take" from a believer in God? They've got all they need by believing that there is someone/something IN CHARGE, and that there is a PLAN for all of this, right? So why are they so antagonistic towards a few vocal atheists speaking their minds and suggesting that no one is in charge and that there is no plan? To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Such that you would miss them and feel something had been taken from you if you no longer believed? What would such BENEFITS be? Surely you can name a few.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : And a little of mine. I'm an atheist for purely pragmatic, Occam's Razor reasons. "No need to postulate a God to explain existence" is a simpler and more efficient explanation of the universe than "A God was/is required for it to exist." Actually, I think about Occam's Razor when I am trying to make sense of these things. And it's often the everyday occurrences that come to mind. And yes, I think the possibility that there is life after death, that we have a soul, and there is rebirth, are the garlic to the atheist. (I did like that phrase). And I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation of how people develop certain tendencies or predispositions when there is no exposure to such experiences. In many cases the most sensible explanation I can come up with, is that there is such a thing as rebirth. And yes, I don't think an atheist wants to go there, because it opens the door to the notion that there is some sort of organizing power at work. What do you think? On the other hand, you can dismiss such anomalies as this as pure coincidence or genetics. Maybe that's a good enough explanation. The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. That would be fine with me. I am trying to go about understanding things, like most of us. And for me, I've come to the conclusion that there is a higher power at work, even if there is much I don't understand about it. As an example, if there is a God, and He/She/It has a PLAN for all of this, how is it that all these atheists aren't part of it? Were they created by someone/something else? What exactly is this "else?" And this is saying nothing about stuff like plagues, floods, earthquakes and other natural disasters. If you're an atheist, you get to look at these things and say, "That's a real pity, but shit happens." If you're a Believer, you have to say, "That's a real pity, including the fact that God made it happen. But it's not our place to question WHY He/She/It made it happen." Who says the higher power needs to be involved in the daily occurrences of things. I certainly don't. I think it is perfectly plausible for believer to come to that same conclusion that "shit happens" Why not. There is nothing that says God must be tied to such events. Kind of rushing here again. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word "atheist" -- spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing believers however they wish. Anyway, it's like the believers perceive the atheists as a *threat*, and as if by believing what they do and daring to say it aloud or write it somewhere they are trying to *take* something from them. I don't get this. *What*, after all, could an atheist "take" from a believer in God? They've got all they need by believing that there is someone/something IN CHARGE, and that there is a PLAN for all of this, right? So why are they so antagonistic towards a few vocal atheists speaking their minds and suggesting that no one is in charge and that there is no plan? To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Such that you would miss them and feel something had been taken from you if you no longer believed? What would such BENEFITS be? Surely you can name a few.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From: "steve.sundur@..." To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 2:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the discussion on highly abstract issues. Issues that can't really be resolved one way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground. I don't agree with your premise, Steve, but I shall reply because the reggae soundtrack is still playing and I feel like it. NOTHING could fit better into the description "can't really be resolved one way or another" than the existence of God. What I've railed against is trying to derail that discussion into nitpicking about what exactly one considers God to be. Ok, I feel duly honored that you have replied. Is that sufficient? Certainly no one wants to get caught up in nitpicking. That's why I choose not to participate in these discussions generally. You seemed to be asking genuinely, that' why I've replied. For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory that we are born with a "blank slate"? Do the atheists believe that when we die, it all goes to black. I cannot presume to speak for all atheists, and do not. Me, I see no conflict whatsoever between believing in reincarnation and karma and being an atheist. Apples and oranges. No God is required to facilitate recycling. And I am not saying that it does necessitate a belief in God, but it does raise a number of interesting questions that I've observed give atheists some discomfort. I don't have time to go into every bit of it, but if there is anything after death, or before birth, that implies karma, and some means for resolving the karma one way or the other. You can always say, "we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if it's what they "believe". You could try asking. For example, I believe in many things, most of them positive. I believe in living one's life as if it matters, even though I firmly believe that on a fundamental level it doesn't. I have asked, but there has been no reply or scant reply. There is some reason that you are living life as though it matters. Maybe that is a belief you should examine. Personally, I don't care if you, but since you brought it up. I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two assumptions. Name two. Re my earlier post about Rhetorical Fallacies, this is called a "straw man," Steve. Clearly, not everyone who is an atheist assumes that life as we know it ends at physical death, or that birth implies a tabula rasa. Barry, if you choose to to discount the many accounts we have all heard about recall from children to adults, many of which have no explanation, be my guest. I feel no need to try to prove them. Discount any or all if you wish. And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, "there is so much we don't know about genetics", or "there is so much we don't know about how the brain works", which sounds a lot like, "God works in mysterious way". Now , the "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't do it for me either, but neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often used here. Cite examples of such replies here on Fairfield Life. We'll wait. I heard that exact phrase from Curtis when the topic came up several years ago. It was made about genetics, and the tabla rasa issue. Hope that was soon enough. I think once you go "there" with an atheist, it introduces issues they are not particularly comfortable with. Listen, I gotta go, Issue with our taxes. Thanks. But I wish to reply more. Often just a lame default, I think. So, that would be my take on the issue. And a little of mine. I'm an atheist for purely pragmatic, Occam's Razor reasons. "No need to postulate a God to explain existence" is a simpler and more efficient explanation of the universe than "A God was/is required for it to exist." The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. As an example, if there is a God, and He/She/It has a PLAN for all of this, how is it that all these atheists aren't part of it? Were they created by someone/something else? What exactly is this "else?" And this is saying nothing about stuff like plagues, floods, earthquakes and other natural disasters. If you're an atheist, you get to look at these things and say, "That's a real pity, but shit happens." If you're a Believer
Re: [FairfieldLife] Why does TM seem to focus on losers?
When I started I was a little mixed up. Hormones were raging, doing some drugs, generally confused. TM offered some respite, a little tranquility. In my case, my participation was also intertwined with a girlfriend. Later it did become something else, a spiritual path, at least for quite a spell, But it did launch me in that direction even if now my focus has changed somewhat. Now my son is going through many of those same issues. In his case, I wish he could find something, but I have to let him sort it out, and offer some guidance when he periodically asks me for some. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : You are right. In the early days of my TM junkie phase, I tried and tried to get my best friend from high school to do TM. He refused over and over. His reason? "Jackson, I don't need it. I'm already happy." He went on to have a career in textile manufacturing and eventually became a purchaser for the Komatsu Corporation. Got married, raised to great kids and is still happy today. I couldn't argue with his reasoning them and I thank God today I was not able to convince him to join the "Marshy sez" cult. On Fri, 4/18/14, TurquoiseBee mailto:turquoiseb@...> wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Why does TM seem to focus on losers? To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com"; mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, April 18, 2014, 8:32 AM One of the things I've noticed over the years is how many long-term TMers say things like, "I'd be dead if it weren't for TM," or "TM saved my life," or "TM cured me of my depression/anxiety/suicidal thoughts/mental illness/whatever." I've always found these claims difficult to relate to, because I didn't have anything to "cure" or "get over" when I first started TM. I had already left drugs behind me, having discovered them back when LSD was still legal and came in a bottle with Sandoz on the label. I did my time with them, enjoyed them *not* because they were an "escape from my problems" but because they enhanced an already-enjoyable life. But then I got tired of them, and even more tired of the scene surrounding them, and left them behind. I'm probably one of the only people here who didn't have to wait 15 days before starting TM. :-) I was also neither depressed nor suicidal. In fact, I was a pretty happy frood, and merely one who was looking for ways to become even happier. And for a time, TM presented what I was looking for, something to enhance a good life and help me to appreciate it even more. But then it became as boring and as stagnant as drugs had been, and with an even more stifling social scene, so I moved on again to other forms of meditation that worked better. But there seem to be any number of long-term TMers who don't look back on their TM experience this way. They seem to focus on what it enabled them to "get over" or "cure" or "get beyond," almost as if (almost) before TM they had been "broken" and TM had "fixed" them. This gets me to thinking about tent revival meetings in the South (which, of course, you can't help but attend a few of if you grow up in the South), in which the most fervent "believers" and most fundamentalist Bible-thumpers were ALL those who formerly were drunks or whores or thieves or something BAD. It's as if they don't feel they can adequately shout "I've been SAVED!" unless they feel they had a lot to be saved FROM. And *this* gets me to thinking about whether Maharishi always pitched TM to losers and people with problems and low self esteem because they become the best disciples. And *disciples* is what he was looking for. Think about it. Does the TMO really spend any energy trying to market TM to "regular people," who have few problems in life and are just looking to enjoy it more? They do not. They focus on People With Problems. Kids doing badly in school. Criminals locked away in prisons. Veterans with PTSD. Can't this be seen as a continuation of a long-standing trend to look for prospective new students among populations who are more likely to be easy to convert into True Believers and thus become disciples? It's just an idea. YMMV.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Reposted just because it seems folks need a reminder
this should be posted periodically along with the "terms" post ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Something to bear in mind while reading Fairfield Life. Or anything else, for that matter. The pasted-in graphic below may not expand properly, so if it doesn't, use the link: http://infobeautiful3.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/iib_rhetological_fallacies_EN.png http://infobeautiful3.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/iib_rhetological_fallacies_EN.png
[FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Probably not what you are looking for, but what I've observed from the atheists, at least on this forum is that they are more comfortable keeping the discussion on highly abstract issues. Issues that can't really be resolved one way or the other, or at least kept on a bit of solid ground. For example, does the belief in atheism necessitate the tabla rasa theory that we are born with a "blank slate"? Do the atheists believe that when we die, it all goes to black. You can always say, "we have no evidence.', but I'd like to know if it's what they "believe". I ask that because there are many instances that would contradict these two assumptions. And sometimes when pressed, you will hear the atheist reply with, "there is so much we don't know about genetics", or "there is so much we don't know about how the brain works", which sounds a lot like, "God works in mysterious way". Now , the "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't do it for me either, but neither does the genetics things, or the brain thing, at least as it is often used here. Often just a lame default, I think,. So, that would be my take on the issue. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Sometimes I look at the way that believers react to the word "atheist" -- spitting it out as if it were an epithet -- and find it a curious reaction. I mean, with the exception of a vocal few who make their livings by poking theists just to watch them react, I don't see most everyday atheists (and I know quite a few, living where I live) reacting to believers in the same fashion. Unless the believers are trying to sell the atheists their beliefs, that is. Then all bets are off and the atheists can react to the proselytizing believers however they wish. Anyway, it's like the believers perceive the atheists as a *threat*, and as if by believing what they do and daring to say it aloud or write it somewhere they are trying to *take* something from them. I don't get this. *What*, after all, could an atheist "take" from a believer in God? They've got all they need by believing that there is someone/something IN CHARGE, and that there is a PLAN for all of this, right? So why are they so antagonistic towards a few vocal atheists speaking their minds and suggesting that no one is in charge and that there is no plan? To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Such that you would miss them and feel something had been taken from you if you no longer believed? What would such BENEFITS be? Surely you can name a few.
Re: [FairfieldLife] !Maharaja Adhiraj Rajaraam is Coming to Fairfield!
Hi Share, I really don't think much about the mechanics of transcending. I think I get what Lawson is saying, but this comment from Fred sounds like so much pablum to me. As far as everyday transcending, I think you know when your deep, and when you're not so deep. Just my unsolicited opinion. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Lawson, I'm not sure about the accuracy of your statement that because the dive is shallower, progression to samadhi takes longer. In one of Fred Travis' graduate classes, someone complained that they didn't feel deep in TM anymore. Fred explained that one way to understand the growth from CC to GC is that the depth comes up to the surface. So we might not feel deep. But that doesn't mean that we aren't deep. I'd add that in any case, trying to feel deep is counter productive. On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 9:29 PM, "LEnglish5@..." wrote: The long-term outcome of all mantras is that they lead to samadhi. Some work faster than others, which, ironically, is the point of advanced techniques: the dive is more shallow, so the progression to samadhi takes longer. So that doesn't explain the striking difference between TM and other mantra-based methods. It's not the fact that a simple, fast-working mantra was being used. If that was the case, then other practices would show the simplest state of awareness slower, but instead, they show it LESS, the longer people have been practicing. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: If the siddhis were real, here's a typical day in the life of a MSAE kid.
Wow, the actual story of the rapist turns out to be quite a bit different than it was first portrayed by Edg, doesn't it, a least as it attempts to implicate the TMO in this offense. And I guess the paragraphs that follow, and which contain absolutely nothing new, are meant to make up for this lack. You sort of have a habit of doing this, I've observed, Edg. Part of your mission I think you said once. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I believe, (not certain,) the rapist was the guy who built (or bought) the first dome house built in the FF area...just north on Pleasant Plain Rdcirca 1982ish? Steve? was his name.would break into houses, rape and leave.in cities all over Iowa...could be I'm remembering it wrongly, but some guy went to prison for serial rape. Don't know if he ever had a flying badge. Truth be told, the movement's history is thoroughly bespattered with offenses petty and grave done by those who got to hobnob with the uppers -- our betters by dint of bank account. And the lower staff too would leverage any bureaucratic power -- the course office folks, for instance, came across to me as quite twisted in their vibe. Too, the leaders were dumped suddenly and without explanations -- regularly ticked and tocked off no matter their reps with us minions. What? Our widely adored God Conscious Jerry Jarvis suddenly was just not up to being life-supporting in his role for the movement? H, toughie to explain why Maharishi didn't magically see Jerry for what he was and would become, or that the technique failed to evolve him. Or what? Meanwhile a FF woman set herself on fire because of "love." Elsewhen, in a small meeting, a would be apostate faux guru slapped a woman across the face -- and that audience hardly flinched at that "therapy." The TMO history is freckled with those with good reputations and supposed spiritual heights who simply had bad luck -- their plane crashed while on a mission for Maharishi, their 20 million dollar company folds despite doing everything movementish, or they just dropped dead while young and well intended -- their good heartedness and charity and one-pointedness did exactly jack shit for them. In general, the poor stay poor, and the rich feel more evolved. And let's not forget those who taped off the first three rows of seats in virtually every meeting that Maharishi attended, and no one was ever told how to become someone important enough to sit in those areasbut I did see intiators seemingly saving seats for their families, and the rich always sat close or even on stage, etc. One never had to look at the movement too hard to spot how individuals cut every corner if their ego simply asserted it was okay to do it -- second thoughts be damned. My sister-in-law made out with Domesh in the back of a meeting with only 15 people in it -- I saw them. We're talking french kissing for fuck's sake. Everyone is a monkey brained rationalist. Who reading this has not heard DOZENS of stories of "long-time, devoted," TMers doing some seriously fucked up shit -- every sort of financial chicanery, the whole spectrum of infidelities, the small company potentates, the throngs packing meetings thrown by carpet-bagging magicians coming to town and siphoning off the TMers on the fringe of their true-believerism due to decades of abuse. Fairfield roils with iniquity. TM does not affect personality or morality. Nope. It. Does. Not. And we're gunna die -- pretty damned soon. Ready for it? My prediction: Ego process ceases, and any soul's individuality or ownership of a certain history dissolves into unfixable entropy -- only God could can remember every iota of any and all -- there's the only residual of existence possible for souls after the body goes poof -- as faint possibilities in the back of God's mind. And every day I was in the movement, I did the same immoral shit in my spheres of influence. We all do and did. TM did not save us from ourselves. Our shit was not gotten together. The organization to teach Esperanto is more successful in creating world peace -- bigger organization, better funded, thousands of offices. TMO did jack comparatively. And half the Beatles died young with personal histories replete with turmoil. Where's the beef? Where's the fucking beef? Who seems plump? Somebody's got the money, right? And yet I would not stay anyone about to sit and meditate -- no matter the provenance of the mantras used. Edg
[FairfieldLife] Re: Studying the numinous
Nice post, tax ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : This reply is specifically for Judy, not Turq or Salyavin. Alas she cannot honestly reply, as it would break her word. That is not saying she is dishonest, please note. We all have honesty glitches, part of the human condition. Generally I am not interested in Theism. I'm a post-Theist, the theist part being early childhood conditioning, which fortunately was neither intense nor carried out with any verve, thus my mind escaped. I do not care for the word God, primarily because it has so many variable and cultural connotations, which make it 'slippery' as vehicle for explanation. If one thinks dualistically about reality, then there is always more than one being, for example, me and the world, or me and God. As long as there is any sense of separation, then being is divided. Those whose consciousness is embodied cannot think any other way. The theistic argument that God is not a being but just being I do not have an argument with. I think currently that being = consciousness = God, the latter in that most abstract sense. But most people do not use the word that way. When God is being in this way, you are the same, as Jesus said 'not made out of flesh and blood but out of God'. But most people are not going to get that idea of being if you use the word God because it will pull in all sorts of cultural and individualised conditioning which in the mind creates 'a being', not abstract non-thing being. The so-called spiritual path is basically just the process of retraining the mind and larger experience to de-localise and de-centralise the appreciation of consciousness. Consciousness makes experience possible, you never experience consciousness, it is what makes experience possible, it is what experiences. In older language it is 'the light of life' which is saying the same thing isomorphically transformed. Consciousness unlocalised and decentred is equally everywhere, the very things of experience. It is equally at every point along the data path of perception, it makes the data points 'visible'. You do not look for it in the human head. What you find there are sensors and an interpretive processor, the mind. Consciousness makes the sensors and the interpretive processing experience-able. All you will find in the head is machinery. You do not have consciousness, it has 'you', what you think you are. Being is eternal but not in the sense of time. Everything has being like this, the most obvious thing in the world, everything is this being. It is trivial and so in one's face it is never seen or understood. As Vashitha said, all this talk about creation and who created the world is for the purpose of writing and expounding scriptures, but it is not true. But the human mind, thinking, works sequentially, and so it sees things as a process with beginnings, middles, and endings. The Big Bang Theory is an example of this, and that is a great practical way to look at the universe, but if you want fulfilment there has to be the experience of everything, mind, body, environment, as all the same being, everything collectively together, the 'uncarved block' as the Taoists say. Unity. Not you in unity, just unity. No 'you' is required. Delocalisatin and decentralisation of consciousness transforms the appreciation of the concept of 'self', and it does not matter if you capitalise 'self' or not. It is just a story, a narrative with the tag 'self' attached to it. You do not have a relationship with being, for it is just what you are, once the 'you' gets dropped off the map as a convenient fiction. To find out if this is real or not, there is no evidence except the experience. There is no proof, no argument can show this. When people talk about it in one way or another, if what they say has a resonance with you, then it sets up a spark inside, and then the search to find out if that particular manner of expression is somehow real begins. No guarantee of success. If it does not resonate, it will appear as total nonsense, because it is not like something, not like anything, so an argument will never convince. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Yet another atheist wannabe who simply cannot lower himself to reading enough philosophy to realize the incoherence of one of his fundamental premises, or that the purported evidentiary problems of theism as confronted by science that he blabs on about so pompously are in fact nonexistent. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hell if I know what a divinity is. I just copied the definition of 'numinous' from the Google search results for 'define:numinous'. I was discussing the nature of informed belief, that is belief based on evidence rather than simply an idea one has in the mind. I was not discussing anything about atheism. Without evidence, there is no case to be made, so arguments for and against are empty. One
[FairfieldLife] Re: Studying the numinous
progress, not process ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I *loved* that sentence also. The below, is the "random brain activity" theory first espoused by Curtis, if I am not mistaken. But what I've found, is that the refining of perception is a gradual process, and may be accompanied by physiological changes. And as for mental and spiritual discipline, I take this to mean inner work, perhaps meditation of some sort, but also introspection about "who I am" and also a questioning of one's thought processes. I don't think you make any progress on the spiritual path without introspection. And yes, I think the above processes do lead to breakthroughs. Whether you want to call it getting closer to God, or just a better understanding the mechanics of what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know. I think things get more personal at that point. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : This bit made me laugh: "In my experience, those who make the most theatrical display of demanding “proof” of God are also those least willing to undertake the specific kinds of mental and spiritual discipline that all the great religious traditions say are required to find God." The experience she had is quite interesting though, and proof that we have an inner world that can go a bit screwy occasionally. But where does the feeling of wisdom that we designate god come from? We know that consciousness is a group experience of many parts of the brain pitching in, perhaps there's a bit confirms to us when we are on the right track about something and reward us with some chemical that feels profoundly wise (mescalin?) when other bits that help self-regulation step offline for a minute we can be overwhelmed by unified wisdom. An unbalancing of what we think of as "ordinary" experience. Let's not forget these experiences are part of the continuum reported by schizophrenics, who are understood to have a fracturing of their normal day-to-day reality. My best guess is that our inner picture takes so much energy and complicated processing to keep going that it's bound to get in a muddle every now and again. Mostly it will be bad (mental illness) but sometimes good (mystical experience). I'm sure everyone gets things like this, especially when they are younger and in the grip of hormonal changes, I certainly did. My first mystical experience was while walking through a meadow aged 10 (ish) . Suddenly the world revealed a hidden depth, a silent vastness behind reality that was also part of it. Very profound vision and stayed with me also. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : A fascinating exchange of views... Opinion piece in the NYTimes by Barbara Ehrenreich, rationalist author and political activist (and atheist), about the change in her perspective on life wrought gradually over many years by a mystical experience she had as an adolescent (note: at age 73, she's still an atheist): http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html Response by NYTimes columnist Ross Douthat (not an atheist) pointing out that her call for science to investigate mystical experiences in depth is premature because science doesn't yet understand ordinary experience well enough: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/ http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Studying the numinous
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : I *loved* that sentence also. The below, is the "random brain activity" theory first espoused by Curtis, if I am not mistaken. But what I've found, is that the refining of perception is a gradual process, and may be accompanied by physiological changes. And as for mental and spiritual discipline, I take this to mean inner work, perhaps meditation of some sort, but also introspection about "who I am" and also a questioning of one's thought processes. I don't think you make any process on the spiritual path without introspection. And yes, I think the above processes do lead to breakthroughs. Whether you want to call it getting closer to God, or just a better understanding the mechanics of what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know. I think things get more personal at that point. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : This bit made me laugh: "In my experience, those who make the most theatrical display of demanding “proof” of God are also those least willing to undertake the specific kinds of mental and spiritual discipline that all the great religious traditions say are required to find God." The experience she had is quite interesting though, and proof that we have an inner world that can go a bit screwy occasionally. But where does the feeling of wisdom that we designate god come from? We know that consciousness is a group experience of many parts of the brain pitching in, perhaps there's a bit confirms to us when we are on the right track about something and reward us with some chemical that feels profoundly wise (mescalin?) when other bits that help self-regulation step offline for a minute we can be overwhelmed by unified wisdom. An unbalancing of what we think of as "ordinary" experience. Let's not forget these experiences are part of the continuum reported by schizophrenics, who are understood to have a fracturing of their normal day-to-day reality. My best guess is that our inner picture takes so much energy and complicated processing to keep going that it's bound to get in a muddle every now and again. Mostly it will be bad (mental illness) but sometimes good (mystical experience). I'm sure everyone gets things like this, especially when they are younger and in the grip of hormonal changes, I certainly did. My first mystical experience was while walking through a meadow aged 10 (ish) . Suddenly the world revealed a hidden depth, a silent vastness behind reality that was also part of it. Very profound vision and stayed with me also. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : A fascinating exchange of views... Opinion piece in the NYTimes by Barbara Ehrenreich, rationalist author and political activist (and atheist), about the change in her perspective on life wrought gradually over many years by a mystical experience she had as an adolescent (note: at age 73, she's still an atheist): http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/opinion/sunday/a-rationalists-mystical-moment.html Response by NYTimes columnist Ross Douthat (not an atheist) pointing out that her call for science to investigate mystical experiences in depth is premature because science doesn't yet understand ordinary experience well enough: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/ http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/how-to-study-the-numinous/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Russia and China announce decoupling trade from Dollar
did anyone else think "racks" when those "at" symbols were posted, and then "those shacks", or is that just me? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : @@ Those shacks must have some really nice furniture in them then and refrigerators full of food. On 04/13/2014 03:03 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote: On 4/13/2014 4:31 PM, Bhairitu wrote: > As far as third world countries, we have one just south of the US > border. > Mexico is a developed country, not a third world country. They use pesos down there in case you didn't know. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Russia and China announce decoupling trade from Dollar
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse I mentioned this book before. This is one scenario on how things could play out. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Hard to say. Could be anything from a Road Warrior scenario to folks banding together to help each other out like they did with Hurricane Sandy. Most Americans are being pushed into austerity anyway. The gap between the richest and poorest is growing wider. History says that the general population will not put up with oppression. Some folks will say that "ordinary Americans" will be too apathetic to revolt. I think if you took away their sports TV they would get rowdy though. The bank bailout of 2008 only put a band-aid on the problem and delayed the inevitable. On 04/12/2014 02:43 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: "Collapse of the US economy. " How certain is that, within what timeframe and how will it effect ordinary Americans ? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mailto:noozguru@... wrote : Collapse of the US economy. This has been discussed for some time. Remember that the US attacked Iraq because Saddam threatened to change from the US dollar to something else (WMDs were just a lame excuse). The banksters have gamed our economic system and there is no solution. Why we fear they will try next and some political pundits think is WWIII to reset everything. Yup, that might REALLY reset everything including all life on earth. It is said they want it soon before Russia and China catch up with the US militarily. Interesting article and book review by Paul Krugman about the economic situation: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/may/08/thomas-piketty-new-gilded-age/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/may/08/thomas-piketty-new-gilded-age/ On 04/12/2014 01:15 PM, nablusoss1008 wrote: Certain posters here claim they are in the know of economics. Could any of these pundits explain what this would mean for the American way of life ? Russia has just dropped another bombshell, announcing not only the de-coupling of its trade from the dollar, but also that its hydrocarbon trade will in the future be carried out in rubles and local currencies of its trading partners - no longer in dollars - see Voice of Russia http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_04_04/Russia-prepares-to-attack-the-petrodollar-2335/ http://www.sott.net/article/277104-Russia-and-China-announce-decoupling-trade-from-Dollar-The-End-for-the-USA-is-nigh%E2%80%8F http://www.sott.net/article/277104-Russia-and-China-announce-decoupling-trade-from-Dollar-The-End-for-the-USA-is-nigh%E2%80%8F
Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?
Good points ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Share, I do like Barry, but I think he has gone ecstatic with this new theory he's put forth. I think he thinks he's found the Rosetta Stone or something. Steve, I suspect you might want to rethink this. Yesterday I posted a *theory*, presenting it very much *as* a theory. I only replied to my original post a few times about the theory itself -- once to Michael, twice to Share, once to Salyavin, and once (humorously) to Bhairitu. I made a couple of posts under the topic correcting Judy on inaccuracies (a polite word for "lies") she was trying to spread about the history of the TM-Sidhi courses, but not arguing the Placebo Effect thang per se. At no point did I attempt to "sell" the theory, to you or anyone else. In contrast, *most* of the other 58 posts (so far) in the thread were from people dumping on Barry. One might suspect that something about it "pushed their buttons." Another bunch of the same people -- Judy, Richard, Ann, Nablus -- also produced dozens of posts under another thread dumping on Barry. Presumably they got *their* buttons kinda pushed, too. As for the theory itself, I can think of two more pieces of "supporting evidence" for it. Do you remember how the "flying" (actually, hopping) took place in "waves?" Nothing would happen and nothing would happen, and then one person would start to bounce, and almost immediately a whole bunch of other people would start bouncing around as well. Might I suggest that suggestion might have had something to do with this? The other thing is the barking and growling and shouting and moaning. I don't know if you were around back then, but it was pretty much a feature of early TM-Sidhi practice. People would start barking like dogs and shouting and flailing their arms about and moaning and all sorts of other stuff. Again, it tended to happen in "waves" -- one person starting it and then others picking up on the suggestion and doing it, too. That certainly speaks to the possibility of suggestion. However, something *else* speaks even more strongly of suggestion. At some point Maharishi heard about all of this ruckus, which made the domes sound like an out-of-control evangelical tent meeting, and he declared that it was inappropriate. Almost overnight, it stopped. The *same* people who had been claiming that all this noise emanating from them was "not in their control" suddenly found that it was. Go figure. The way I figure it, it's all explained handily by Placebo Effect -- suggestion, then effect. But again, all of this is just theory on my part, and furthermore a theory I am *not* trying to sell you. If you somehow feel threatened by me presenting it -- as Judy, Richard, Ann, and Nablus obviously do -- I would look inside for the cause of that rather than to me.
Re: [FairfieldLife] For Bhairitu...
Smile #2 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 4/10/2014 1:35 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote: The French counterpart of Silicon Valley: > This might work for just about everyone but the network techs - if the server goes down and you don't fix it, you will be going down. I just pinged my remote server and it is online so I'm good to go. http://rwilliams.us/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?
I'll tell you Michael, the spiritual gambit can be dicey. I feel I am barely holding on half the time. Seriously. Now, I don't know if that is the pressure to make payroll every week, or "something good is happening", but it's a wild ride, with no shortage of pitfalls. Maybe there should be more warning given. I have three kids. I never mention anything of about TM to any of them. Step on the spiritual path at your own risk. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : ANd I know a number who have been screwed up royally by the experience - talk to someone who has had a family member try to commit suicide and I am talking about long term sidha or governor tried to commit suicide, someone who was so heavily invested in all the Movement candy it was like heroin to them - a few chats with those folk and you might just get a different perspective ---- On Fri, 4/11/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 11, 2014, 2:34 AM Share, I do like Barry, but I think he has gone ecstatic with this new theory he's put forth. I think he thinks he's found the Rosetta Stone or something. When the siddhis were first introduced, I was with a small group in my dorm, many of whom had concrete experiences with the siddhis. You what one of those guys is doing now. He's a respected tax lawyer in the northeast, recipient of many recognitions. And also happens to be a supporter of the TMO. In fact it's listed in his business profile along with his other accomplishments, including being a graduate of MIU. But he must be a deluded cult apologist according to the detractors here. In fact, look at the accomplishments of many everyday TMers, and former TM teachers. I know many who live quite normal lives. Not heavily invested in the organization, but have enjoyed, and still enjoy benefits. That is so anethema to the story some would have you believe here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : turq, research and my own experience indicates that field independence develops in TMers. That alone would decrease and or prevent any alleged placebo effect and strengthen a person's ability to "divorce" from it. I think this is one of the greatest benefits of TM. It liberates. Even from itself. Plus I doubt than a placebo effect, even if it occurred in the beginning, can last for decades! Especially if a person has very little contact with the TMO. Lastly, again going by my own experience, I'd say that the language of the sutra doesn't matter as a person's awareness settles into finer levels of existence. On Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:17 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: I think one can make a case that they are. Here, I'll start... First, let's look at the basic TM technique, which uses Sanskrit mantras described by the TMO as "meaningless sounds" (which are really the names or "calling cards" of Hindu gods and goddesses, as anyone who can read books from India would know) as a mechanism for meditation. You *could* make a case that there is something "special" about these mantras, some sonic quality that actually facilitates meditation, because of course they have no meaning to most of the people who think them. But that's not true for the TM-Sidhis. As anyone who has ever learned them knows (but gets really, really uptight when someone like myself points out), what you paid thousands of dollars for (a good argument for the Placebo Effect in itself) were a number of *English language phrases* straight from a translation of the Yoga Sutras, all of which very *definitely* have meaning. After a period of TM meditation, the "TM Sidha" is instructed to think them -- *in English* (or whatever modern language they were taught the TM-Sidhis in) in a particular way, and then wait for the effects. I believe that a strong case can be made for Placebo Effect-like *expectation* in all of this, for three reasons. First, the TM-Sidhis were initially marketed *as a way of achieving and mastering all of the "siddhis" these phrases describe*. The original (first few years) "intro lectures" about the TM-Sidhi program were full of promises that you would learn to levitate and be able to perform other siddhis. Tales were told by people marketing and selling the new (and rather expensive) courses of people having been seen levitating, or walking through walls, or demonstrating invisibility. All of these tales were nothing more than urban legends,
[FairfieldLife] Re: This should fuck with them Chrisschuns
Michael, pray tell. How may we connect this to something undesirable about the TMO? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : It looks as if Jeesuz had a wife. Maybe it took so long for people to realize it because he did the King Tony thang and hid it from everyone. :-) http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/04/10/new-tests-show-evidence-forgery-gospel-jesus-wife/IusII8b4eI86HgDTKipLhN/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/04/10/new-tests-show-evidence-forgery-gospel-jesus-wife/IusII8b4eI86HgDTKipLhN/story.html
Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect?
dittos on Bhairitu's comment ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Of course, it's not at all "interesting," because she didn't try to explain her beliefs about the TM-Sidhis and how she believes they "work." What she did was describe what she felt were the benefits to herself, not an "alternative theory." In fact, what she describes is fully consistent with TM theory. Plus which, I never said the TM-Sidhis "work" and wouldn't make that claim (that's why I used scare quotes in my post). They have effects of various sorts, depending on the individual. Jeez, you have to watch him like a hawk for all the gross misstatements and distortions of fact he sneaks into his posts. I do agree with Share about the placebo effect generally: We don't know how it works. Bhairitu's comment was interesting, that the actual performance of siddhis is a "placebo effect," i.e., making something happen via the mind alone. That sounds right to me. Share, thanks for your replies, and your honest attempt to try to explain your beliefs about the TM-Sidhis and how you believe they "work." I'm still more attracted to my placebo effect theory, but so it goes... Isn't it interesting, as well, that you *could* propose an alternative theory, and that woman who goes to great lengths to prove how much smarter she is than you couldn't? :-) From: Share Long To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect? salyavin, like I said to turq, I'm really enjoying answering these posts. Another benefit of TMSP, in my experience, has to do with developing opposite positive qualities. I think it has to do with focusing from the more settled levels of mind and body. Broad comprehension and sharp focus happen at the same time. I would LOVE to see how that would look on an fMRI machine. And I would really love to see how it looks in someone who's been doing it for decades! Anyway, to more directly answer your question, I think my thinking has become both more fluid and more steady over time. I know these sound opposite but as I say above, I think that's what happens, for some people, with continued practice of TMSP. As for placebos, I think the whole field of placebos is in its infancy. Meaning, until we know more about the human mind and the nature of the universe and how the two are connected, then we might come to a lot of non beneficial conclusions about placebos. On Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:34 AM, salyavin808 wrote: I'm not sure what "field independence" is but I'm worried that you think there's anything you can do that might affect how placebo's work. I think TM makes people more suggestible not less. It's why they always have the "knowledge" tape after the meditation session, it's when you mind is most relaxed and open and therefore susceptible. It also reinforces the belief in things like the mind "settling into finer levels of existence". How often was I told that the words weren't important because I was absorbing it unconsciously, and I was happy about that. LOL! Glad I started thinking about it all pretty quick ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : turq, research and my own experience indicates that field independence develops in TMers. That alone would decrease and or prevent any alleged placebo effect and strengthen a person's ability to "divorce" from it. I think this is one of the greatest benefits of TM. It liberates. Even from itself. Plus I doubt than a placebo effect, even if it occurred in the beginning, can last for decades! Especially if a person has very little contact with the TMO. Lastly, again going by my own experience, I'd say that the language of the sutra doesn't matter as a person's awareness settles into finer levels of existence. On Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:17 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: I think one can make a case that they are. Here, I'll start... First, let's look at the basic TM technique, which uses Sanskrit mantras described by the TMO as "meaningless sounds" (which are really the names or "calling cards" of Hindu gods and goddesses, as anyone who can read books from India would know) as a mechanism for meditation. You *could* make a case that there is something "special" about these mantras, some sonic quality that actually facilitates meditation, because of course they have no meaning to most of the people who think them. But that's not true for the TM-Sidhis. As anyone who has ever learned them knows (but gets really, really uptight when someone like myself points out), what you paid thousands of dollars for (a good argument for the Placebo Effect in itself) were a number of *English language phrases* straight from a translation of the Yoga Sutras, all of which very *definitely* have meaning. After a period of TM meditation, the "TM Sidha" is instructed to think them -- *
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Maharishi Murderer
Jesus Christ, this makes me smile! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : > Hey Richard, I like the pictures you've posted of yourself. My favorite was > > the one from when you worked as a reporter, > If anyone wants to make lot's of money, go into commissioned sales. On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 11:03 PM, mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Hey Richard, I like the pictures you've posted of yourself. My favorite was the one from when you worked as a reporter, (if I have that right) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : On 4/9/2014 2:00 PM, salyavin808 wrote: Look at it as helping him realise that he needs to modify his approach if he wants to be taken seriously. > So, why would I want to be taking you seriously - you're just another anonymous poster. But, your contributions should be able to stand on their own without any comment from me, pro or con. So, far you've been an interesting read, but I'm not sure why you're not interested in discussing spiritual paths, music, or any of the other 10,000 topics I've posted to FFL. Go figure. But like most people here he's old enough to have decided the sort of face he wants to present to the world. Go figure. > Well, I always put my best face forward - but you didn't post a photo of your face. LoL!
