Perfect Madness: From Awakening to
Enlightenment by Donna Lee Gorrell (daughter of THE famous jazz
musician of the same middle name)
I was naive when my spiritual journey began, I wanted growth without
change, wisdom without experience, security without sacrifice, and
life without death. I wanted
TomT: Have Fun!
Barry:
Always. You, too, I trust...
TomT:
It seems that is our purpose or so it seems.
Barry:
This could be interpreted as a throwaway comment
on your part, but I don't see it as one, because
I thoroughly agree. I think that fun is one of
the most misunderstood principles in
Barry writes snipped:
Have fun. TOm
Always. You, too, I trust...
TomT:
It seems that is our purpose or so it seems. Anyway it seems a lot
that laughter is the constant and that being around people is the
source of amusement. The recognition there is only one of us and it
has our flavor because
Barry writes snipped:
I'm completely *comfortable* with the notion of there
being a Saganesque billions and billions of realities.
That poses no problem for me whatsoever.
TomT:
For me it appears to be a Baskin and Robbins store with trillions of
flavors and ultimately the only thing you can
stu writes snipped:
In all cases, free will is adopted and rejected by people regardless of
their proclivity towards faith. However, I am ever suspicious of
anyone's arguments if they involve themselves with faith. If they are
willing to accept one notion without adequate evidence what then of
New Morning posts snipped:
But then again, you don't really know, at all, right?
TomT:
When the Knowing is Known by the ultimate Knower there is no where
left to go. This is the one and only Knower knowing its creation
through its own Self. From the totality of creation to point value it
is all
Barry writes snipped:
In the same way that some of the subjectopaths here
seem to believe that If I believe it, it's 'truth,'
Edg believes that If I *feel* it, it's 'truth.'
TomT:
I was reading a newsletter today and learned of a law called Benford's
Law of Controversy that states that passion in
Angela writes snipped:
Really good description. When witnessing sleep, you
can sometimes see the moment when the body drifts from
waking into sleeping, and you can feel surprised at
some distance from it all that there is hardly any
difference.
And the surprise contains the further notion that
--- Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I had noticed that at the instant of falling asleep,
that thoughts
became less frequent, discontiguous and random - - -
so I will
occaisionally reproduce that to encourage sleep.
Angela writes:
Yeah, I can enter that state at will also. I think
you can
Barry writes snipped:
I'm just suggesting that it doesn't. Belief
EQUALS only belief. Presented AS belief, or
opinion, I have no problem with anything anyone
says. Presented as truth, I might have to
speak up and point out that IMO it isn't.
That's all.
TomT:
Any belief is just another
Steve writes snipped:
There is not a system of conflict resolution in the TMO and so the
frustration only leads to two choices--accept the way it is or leave.
TomT:
There is a saying around FF that graduating from the movement is hard
as the only way to do that is to get thrown out. All baby
Amarnath writes snipped:
After full Awakening, in this phase,
There is nothing but Self !
( which is Awareness, Bliss, God, Love,
whatever ).
In this ?final? phase, I am also my experiences.
But 'I' and 'me' are no longer personal
supposedly and neither is the Bliss
( it's of a different
Peter writes snipped:
Then bliss is like a dead dog in the road! Bliss is the darshan of
Brahman, but not Brahman.
TomT:
Yes but if the indicator is there then attention and appreciation of
what is going on in the moment surely leads to the understanding of
Brahman. Appreciation is the tool that
Curtis writes snipped:
At first I sort of resisted using a mantra since I do experience a
similar state without one once I close my eyes and let silence
dominate my attention. I didn't want to link the experience to my
past practice to hopefully avoid some of the conceptual baggage. This
worked
Alex Stanley posts snipped:
FEAR = False Evidence Appearing Real
TomT:
Attribution to Neale Donald Walsh, Conversations with God book 1 near
the end of that volume. Tom
Barry writes snipped:
What I couldn't agree with less is his sugges-
tion that the enlightened can do anything they
want and actually be enlightened. In my book
the enlightened still produce karma, and thus
still can create negative karma and suffer the
results of it if they perform negative
from the last chapter of Patanajali:
#29 One who has attained complete discrimination between the subtlest
level of mind and the Self has no higher knowledge to acquire. This is
dharma megha samadhithe state of Unclouded Truth.
#30 It destroys the causes of suffering, and the bondage of action
New Morning writes snipped:
Its sort of parallel the motivations of posters. One poster threaten
not to read my post if I did not change some style element. (Are there
any other benefits?). I tried to explain, that I had little interest
in who or how many read my posts. That is not the fruit of
Peter writes:
Ravi Shankar actually wanted to teach what he had
cognized while in silence (Sudashan Kriya) within the
structure of the TMO. MMY told him to teach on his
own. He didn't leave the TMO for over a year after
that. While I see Chopra and SSRS as very different
from one another (one
bwaytheatrediva writes:
Hi everyone. I'm 23 years old and I've lived in FF my whole life. I
have a huge amount of bitterness/hatred toward the TMO. It was shoved
down my throat from literally the moment I was born. MSAE was a kind
of hell that I wouldn't wish on anyone. A lot of the people I
New Morning writes snipped:
Or posit a universe where everything is me. All action becomes
purely selfish. And yet surprisingly, some good may come of it.
TomT;
Welcome to my universe. Thanks
We lived in a house back East that was built in 1976 and no natural
gas hook ups were allowed when it was built. When I moved in we had a
60 gallon electric hot water heater that was very expensive to run.
Moved to 2 electric instant hot water heaters. Expensive as it
required two 220 X 40 amp
Definition given by Chopra:
When one feels good for no reason. As a matter of fact one wonders how
one could feel good when all that stuff is in the fan and one still
feels good. TOm
The good news about the missing posts is that we only have to look at
half of the Judy/Barry Exchange. There is a bright side to all
happenings if we look deep enough.
tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis wrote:
The good news about the missing posts is that we only have to look at
half of the Judy/Barry Exchange. There is a bright side to all
happenings if we look deep enough.
bhairitu writes
Never click on them and you'll never have to read any of them. But I
Doug Hamilton writes snipped:
Good stories often turn on a presence of mind that has someone stand
resolved. Well told stories do tell what someone was thinking or
doing `walking in those shoes' and sometimes a good story just helps
you stand where someone stood for a moment.
TomT:
Susan
Judy writes: snipped
This model is designed to make people feel stupid
if they're still lacking the realization, as if
there were something wrong with them for not
having it--e.g., what should have been obvious,
IGNORANT of what's been right in his face since
the day he was born.
It's the very
Another old posting from Tom T
From Jean Klein Transmission of the Flame page 65 first para:
...We have very often repeated that the seeker is the sought. An
object is a fraction; it appears in your wholeness, in your globality.
When you really come to the understanding that the seeker is the
Something I posted here a few years ago that seems revelant to this
discussion. TOm
Ignorance is nothing more that our ability to ignore that which we
already are. A great many spiritual people have some pretty
outstanding experiences, which cause them to move to deeper
understandings. The key
One other thing to add to the stew from one of my long lost posts.Tom
Enlightenment is not an experience it is an understanding that comes
when the intellect makes the final discrimination. The understanding
does not happen in any mind. Self knows Self. The knowing of Self is
so strong as to
Barry writes snipped:
And again, you are assuming the unenlightened
model, which believes that progress *has* to be made
towards enlightenment. If you shift to another
equally accurate model and description of the process --
that everyone is always already enlightened and that the
*only* thing
sandiego108 writes snipped:
I think what Maharishi says about the Bindu is that it contains all
that there is, within all that there is. So there is not a Bindu of
singularity inside of that which is not of the same essential nature
as the Bindu. Rather, from any point in all that there is,
Reminds me of the story of the women who had been married three times
and was still at virgin.
The first time she married an 80 ish multimillionaire who took one
look at her body had a fatal heart attack and she inherited gazillions.
The next guy she married was because he was so so handsome and
Someone today described the TM movement as The Bland leading the Bland
Tom
Since Barry loves them noticed the new DVD list includes Two Lane
Blacktop.
This Monte Hellman 1971 road movie perhaps the definitive example of
the genre has now come full circle. Oversold on its first release,
when Esquire magazine printed its screenplay under the title Movie of
the Year,
HA Such an honor. Peter Sellers indeed. I always knew I was
strange, but strange and kinky is even better. Thanks again. TOmT
knowing Barry's love of road trips thought he and others might like
this ny times report on John McCain's mom and aunt with a 90 year
history of bizarre road trips. Fun read.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/travel/escapes/14sisters.html?_r=1oref=slogin
Barry writes snipped:
Me, too, but that would have taken away the conundrum
aspect of it all, and most of the time I really *enjoy*
that -- not knowing exactly what to think about it all.
TomT:
My experience is that the only thing I know for sure is I DONT KNOW!
appears to be the operative word
T3rinity writes snipped:
Samayama on the lower forms would thus prepare the nervous
system. purify it and make it subtle, which is its only purpose.
Enlightenment itself cannot be given. It comes by itself by the
recognition of the Self by Itself, so only purification is most important.
So, to
Curtis writes snipped:
I wonder if many movement people have any issues with BP? I would
think that with a health conscious group this would be kind of a non
issue. Certainly not enough to spend this much time on. Eat well,
exercise, and hope you don't have a genetic pre-disposition for high
Barry writes snipped:
Being able to perform siddhis doesn't make a
person good, and being bad doesn't prevent a
person from being able to do them. Used as some
kind of measure of a person's enlightenment,
the siddhis are just as big a failure as any
other measurement you might imagine.
TomT:
As
Barry writes snipped:
It's the same thing we see in those who feel that *their* subjec-
tive experiences are better than other people's subjective experiences.
Tom T:
Another way to look at any and all experiences is as a storage device.
We have an Experience and the reason we do is that we are
Rory Goff writes snipped:
But to know itself as Self is not like any other knowledge, which
is indeed dualistic and based on a comparison, on an either-or
discrimination.
That's why this Self-knowledge is so mind-blowing -- literally. It is
so ordinary and so special, so still and so
n Nov 18, 2007, at 11:43 AM, ffl_topic_heading_editor wrote:
Give the process several weeks. If it is not useful, it can be
abandoned.
After this initial resettting of topic headings, I anticipate that
this will not be needed any more than 2-5 times a week. And tapering
down from there --
New Morning et al:
Actually my question was quite simple. Do people believe or experience
that the practice of TM (and/or siddhis) improves day to day behavior
and activity? Any takers?
Tom T;
My experience is Yes. That does not mean that from time to time
certain people experience me as someone
I thought that the guys you picked to show me were much to handsome. I
am much fatter and have all gray hair. Great shots of the gang on Weds
nite. Enjoyed this very much. Tom
Angela writes:
If you guys find this hymn, please let me know. It's my favorite, and
the pages where it should be are missing from my copy of the tenth
mandala. a
TomT;
Revelations has a ton of copies if you wish to update yours. Or on the
other hadn stop in get a cup of coffee and read what
New Morning posts snipped:
Big important issues (to you) -- and for which you have the time,
attention and sometimes money to investigate more deeply, deserve
deeper,more systematic investigations.
TomT:
On NPR this AM an interview about the changing of the guard at the
Chinese Politburo. Small
As Jed McKenna wrote in his second book Spiritually Incorrect
Enlightenment. Life is free fall forever. A lady commented Yah! and
everything is Teflon coated. Tom T
Vaj writes snipped;
Actually the way it's taught by lineal Patanjali masters is that
siddhis are not to be cultivated via samyama but instead are
spontaneous side-effects of samadhi. Swami Brahmananda Saraswati
emphasized this as well.
TomT:
As I have stated previously The sutras are not a
Barry writes snipped:
In other words, it's not the words that provide
the finger pointing to the moon. It's the fact
that the enlightened being's *attention* is on
the moon that makes it lively, and that allows
others to get a feeling for the moon and what it
is like, even though the puny words
Barry writes in his summary:
So have a go at it, eh? And if you are able to come
up with some statement -- any statement -- that is
true for all beings, in all periods of time, in all
contexts, and when viewed from all states of consciousness,
*then* come back and tell me how accurate
you believe
New Morning et al snipped :
But my view doesn't include a SHOULD, its more of a visionary
could.
TomT:
Absolutely agree. But in order to spring fully into the could I find I
need to see the perfection of what IS and not as a static IS but an
everchanging, ever perfect IS. As one friend recently
New morning snipped:
And ME has always seemed a strained description or metaphor. More
apt would be we, but that still implies many and doesn't feel like
that. The well is one. To equate this Oneness Well with this localized
apparatus -- which in common language is called me, doesn't fit my
Barry concludes:
Oh, that we all had more of that same Beginner's Mind
more of the time in other discussions...
TomT:
At the large course in DC in 1993 we were shown videos to pass the day
between extended rounds. One day they showed a video entitled:
Advanced Jyotish for Beginners. As usual I
Barry writes snipped:
Transmission (or empowerment) kinda cuts through
the crap of language and its inability to express
the inexpressible. It also cuts through the crap
of the intellect, in that one doesn't have to
try to imagine what is being discussed; it is
here and now, part of one's
New Morning et al: writes snipped
___Thus, for example, I understand, directly, that thoughts, and
the subset of thoughts called desires, is not from any
individualities' effort. Thus, the nuance, that might be sympathetic
and understanding of Jim's and Rory's apparent position of: they don't
Some additional things that came up whilst the eyes were closed. In
chapter 2 of Patanjali verses 34 and 35 (close quess as my copy is
still in a box somewhere). #34 goes like this. When the person is
established in truthfulness all actions achieve the desired results.
#35 When the person is
Bronte posts snipped:
When another person's belief is so out of line with our own opinions
and assumptions, it's almost impossible to bend the mind to form an
opening large enough to consider the radical possibility. I try to
bend mine as much as possible. It's let me find a lot of interesting
Marek writes snipped:
And he wasn't talking about giving up your individuality or slavishly
following a guru; only that some have experienced that blasting away
of the individual and the realization that I/It -- *Is* -- not even
One but beyond the concepts of 'One' and 'other'. And, if I
Barry writes snipped:
So please don't take offense if you're still way into
a subject and want to pursue it and I don't want to
play. It's only that I've used the original subject as
inspiration and am now off up some tributary that seems
more interesting to me. And I'm probably up there
from Perfect Madness, from awakening to enlightenment by Donna Lee
Gorrell page 121:
The third eye is the beacon to the inner universe that sees the inner
and outer as inseparable. This eye sees all creation as unified and
yet permits one to operate within the world of complexities and
The basis of civility is to allow the perceived other the same thing
that every one seems to want. Allow other the same freedom you demand
for yourself without insisting you are absolutely perfectly right and
have the perfect Truth. You are free to say what you will. I am free
to respond and state
From the book of the above name subtitled: From Awakening to
Enlightenment by Donna Lee Gorrell (daughter of THE famous jazz
musician of the same last name)
from the top of the first para of the intro.
I was naive when my spiritual journey began, I wanted growth without
change, wisdom without
New Morning writes snipped:
I suggest, perhaps, if you feel it true: Make a saint or anyone
whose virtues you admire. Love them as a role model. Receive their
blessings with openness, if such flows. Regardless, just admire those
qualities. I do with Ingmar and Luccianno. Safe Passage.
Ba
Barry writes snipped:
So some days I might fill his lap with flowers, and
the next, Tootsie Rolls, or like today, let him wear
my nose glasses, or maybe a funny hat. I think enough
of the historical Buddha to believe that whatever makes
me smile would make him smile.
Tom T:
Cindy and I used to
Jim Flanegin writes snipped:
--he needs to be able to discriminate
between reality and non-reality, regardless of how he expresses or
doesn't express this ability. I am not a fan of overblown
intellectual or academic arguments. A piercing intellect in an
enlightened state need never be
Rick writes snipped:
--- many have left because they got sick of the bickering, even if
they didn't participate in it. You and the rest of the AMT crowd have
been valuable contributors, and I would hate to lose you, but as I
recall,FFL was a much more harmonious place before you all arrived.
Tom
Marek writes snipped:
So I was wondering . . . if you could teach or impart just one thing
to a person, the one thing or teaching or fundamental knowledge or
wisdom that you had gleaned from your life experiences -- the thing
that you would most want to share, the thing that you grokked the most
A former Purusha friend informed me that he knew from first hand
experience that a monthly check was being sent to Jerry at least into
the early 90's by one of the movements arms. TomT
Barry writes snipped:
I say if you're going to have a limit, enforce it.
Otherwise the assholes win.
TomT:
Eggzactly. When you instituted this policy he was adamant that you
could not do this to him. He is still trying to have it his way. Shut
him down, he has gone over before at the beginning
Judy writes snipped:
In other words: He's very clear--remarkably clear--
that it's not that he's suddenly realized that the
earth is really nothing but a congregation of
vapours, or that other people have no more value
than dust. He's not passing judgment on the earth
and human beings, he's saying
Rory writes snipped:
Anyone can react against the evil out there and act to change it, and
most do. More power to them! But IME it takes real courage to root
out the evil where it actually lies -- in our own beliefs, our own
thoughts. That's when we truly end the war.
Right action continues,
I really enjoyed Barrys latest rap on being special. Read it deleted
it and went to empty the trash bin. Oh the metaphor! Using Eudora the
way to empty the trash bin is to go to Special on the menu select that
and then select empty trash. Seems you have to choose special to empty
the trash. Just
Barry writes snipped:
I think if you ponder this you'll come back with faith.
Jim Flanegin responds snipped:
An interesting and provocative statementthat we confirm our belief
with regard to another's enlightenment primarily with faith.
Faith for me plays a central role in my ongoing
New morning et al posts snipped:
When the heart is full, one sees love in everything. A
sweet radiant love -- emanating from everything. When one is Full of
It, one sees That everywhere.
In that sense, I think it is still a projection, a line, of a
distinct, but out there not so significant
Barry writes snipped:
You'll realize that there was never anything you could
DO to escape from jail, because you were never in it
in the first place. There IS no doing when it comes to
escaping from the imaginary prison of self.
I hope for your sake that this happens soon. I know that
it'll
New Morning et al write snipped:
Is it true?
Can you absolutely know that it's true?
How do you react when you think that thought?
Who would you be without the thought?
Can you turn it around?
(Each turnaround is an opportunity to experience the opposite of your
original statement and see
Marek writes snipped:
Also, I agree with you that when there is any experience of
awakening, no matter how transitory, the hook would seem to have been
set and the search for its permanency might begin in earnest. At
least that's been many folks' experience, though Curtis at this point
in
Barry concludes snipped:
Another aspect of the enlightenment process that
one tends to see in other traditions more often
than in the TM movement is just *not caring* where
one is at on the enlightenment scale. The moments
of clear realization are neat, and the moments of
unclear realization are
Rory writes snipped big time:
As for the rest, I'll just reiterate that I am not saying you guys
are damaged -- just that you and Vaj (Curtis less so) seem self-
condemned to repeat yourselves over and over, making broad, sweeping
(and easily disputed) statements without ever getting to your
Bhairitu writes snipped:
The results are disasterous. Limbaugh was obviously only a C
student, but he is absolutely gifted in reducing gray issues into
stark black and white. Give him credit for that.
Tom T:
Since our society is solidly running on the basic principles of
addiction, people want
Dr Pete writes snipped:
Different levels of practice: Gross, subtle and
unmanifest. Gross is the actual behavioral asana with
the body or changing the behavioral breathing of the
lungs. Subtle is the change in the various koshas
(subtle bodies) from the behavior, and unmanifest is
the virtual
Judy writes: snipped
The thing about Brahman, as Ken Wilber points
out, is that It is One without a second, One
without an opposite. If you say It is X, that
means It is not not-X, which gives not-X an
existence independent of Brahman; it gives
Brahman an opposite, a second.
TomT:
Brahman is that
Barry writes snipped:
Being forgotten.
It fears oblivion.
IMO, it's not even that the self fears death
itself. Most selves have caught a clue and have
realized that they're gonna die, and have come
to some sense of comfort with that fact. But
what the self fears is that it'll be completely
Vaj writes:snipped
The basic reason often given is that cultivation of siddhis thru
samyama causes one to become vyuthana or outward and attached to
the outer world.
Tom T
The Sutras of Patanjali are a description not a prescription as so
many have supposed. Read them after thirty years of
Tom T:
More from Jean Klein: Transmission of the Flame page 65 first para:
...We have very often repeated that the seeker is the sought. An
object is a fraction; it appears in your wholeness, in your globality.
When you really come to the understanding that the seeker is the
sought, there is a
Edg writes snipped:
Amness is illusory. A representation. A symbol. An activity of a
nervous system that, partially only, it is as close as a map can be to
the territory without being the territory. Brahma poses as Brahman and
fools everyone, including Himself. Even the purity of amness cannot
Edg writes snipped:
Amness is not an experience. The ego is unified when one (ego) has
transcended-dissolved into amness, so there's no one to experience
anything -- other than our good old faithful Absolute. The Absolute
is the only sentience -- amness is to Absolute as dummy is to
Edg writes :
Tom,
I am a bit iffy on what you're trying to say in your three consecutive
posts. Are you supporting my post or finding error or I don't
find much to argue with in the quotes you give, but then, I don't have
much resonance with the vocabulary, so trying to see what your
Loved this flick. Had the dvd and watched all the extras and realized
that most of the movie was scripted dirctly from a one hour TV show
that was shot in the 70s for Australian TV. You could even see the
same dialogue and scene setup. Very interesting study in human life. Tom T
Yes shemp, please, leave sooner rather than later. Tom T
Barry writes snipped:
The test of enlightenment, as I see it, is how
well you maintain in *all* circumstances and
environments, not just the ones you prefer or
consider refined and spiritual. I've met
yogis who could radiate samadhi consistently
in the meeting hall, but who turned into
Judy writes:
Rick and most of the others here *like* it that
way, nice and bland, minimal spontaneity, minimal
interaction, a showcase for those who like to do
set pieces, a little of this, a little of that,
move on to the next. Criticism of MMY and the
TMO along party lines; a bit of tame
Byron Katies newest book as titled above. It is her commentary on the
Tao Te CHing all 81 sutras with a chapter for each sutra some short
some long.given in an off hand contemporary manner.
Excerpt from Chapter 21 The master keeps her mind always at one with
the Tao.
Page 59 chapter 2 para 2.
If
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Like it or not, the posting limit works,
and praise of it is almost unanimous.
The 7-post limit is kind of an interesting idea. Any feedback on
that?
Ken Hassman writes:
Yah, if the praise of the 5-post limit is
Both Cindy and I love to do the square in the evening after a lite
meal. When we are here for the weekends we head out to walk around
Walden Lake. I also do my daytime walks to attempt to control the
battle of the bulge in the same place. An injured knee likes the level
walking on the blacktop
Find her book Collision with the Infinite and read it. It may be
available here at Revelations at half price. Used copies surface from
time to time. Very interesting story. She was indoctrinated by her
parents to believe if Fear was present then there was someting to be
afraid of. Both of her
Jim Flanegin writes snipped:
Since you see this as myth, why not see it personally, as each of us
facing our own Arjuna and Krishna? Facing our Duryodhana, king of
the demons, on our battlefield of Kurukshetra? As another
possibility, that is the way I interpret the dialogue between Arjuna
and
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