Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
A-NO-NE Music wrote: Darcy James Argue / 2005/08/02 / 12:40 PM wrote: so use AU! It's a huge improvement over GPO Studio. Not to nitpicking but just to be technically correct, I think it is less confusing to say GPO Studio vs Finale Built-in GPO (I say FinGPO) since Finale2006 is not really an AU (or VST on Win) host. And that little fact is a huge mistake on Finale's part, in my opinion. Finale2006 is obviously a VST/AU host to some degree or it couldn't work with GPO, but the crippling of the capability is a real sin, in my opinion. How much harder would it have been to make Finale2006 a real VST/AU host, and leave the choice of sample sets to the end user? I probably wouldn't use it as I'm happy with my sound sources now, but at least I would know I could explore that if I wanted to, and the choice of sample sets would be mine to invest in as I saw fit. Making it a Native-Instruments-only (and apparently not entirely NI, able to use ALL NI sample collections, at that) VST host is like Ford making a car that can only run on EXXON High Test gas, although it will run on any low-test gas we want to use. If Ford and EXXON tried that, there would be Congresional investigations. With this tiny niche-of-a-niche-of-a-niche market called notation software, nobody cares. Nobody, that is, except the end-user for whom real choice isn't allowed. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
dhbailey / 2005/08/03 / 06:08 AM wrote: How much harder would it have been to make Finale2006 a real VST/AU host, and leave the choice of sample sets to the end user? It is already AU host on Mac side (but not VST, and don't know about Win side) the fact my FinMac2006 wants MachFive iLok on launch even though it is disabled. They spent extra coding to disable anything but NI stuff. How stoopid is that. If Finale won't let you use other AUs you already have, it shouldn't load in the first place. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
A-NO-NE Music wrote: dhbailey / 2005/08/03 / 06:08 AM wrote: How much harder would it have been to make Finale2006 a real VST/AU host, and leave the choice of sample sets to the end user? It is already AU host on Mac side (but not VST, and don't know about Win side) the fact my FinMac2006 wants MachFive iLok on launch even though it is disabled. They spent extra coding to disable anything but NI stuff. How stoopid is that. If Finale won't let you use other AUs you already have, it shouldn't load in the first place. Perhaps the programmers were out having a smoke while that part of the Implementation of AU capability on Macintosh Computers -- disabling the loading of unused plug-ins Seminar took place? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
I'm a big GPO fan, and I bit back in May or June and ordered the upgrade. I've been looking forward to all the improvements. I know MM is holding back the discs because of the Mac install prob, but I'm a Win user (although I do prefer the disc be usable on both - just in case a Mac comes walking through the door for some strange reason). Anyone have an idea when I might receive it? Raymond Horton For everyone on the edge of their chair (you're out there, right?) I found out the answer to my own question. For some reason or another, my on-line order had not gone through, and MM had no record of it. I entered another order and should get it in 7 days. Damn. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On Aug 2, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:Have you tried messing around with the Mass Mover tool and selecting measures with it? I and a couple of other people running the Mac version have seen lags with the tool. I have a 1.42 Gigahertz Mac Mini and a 933 G4. I did a transcription project last night. I ended up copying and pasting the entire 5 minute song into one of my templates (for reasons I'll address in a later post), and it seemed a lot faster to me than FinMac '05. In fact, I had been experiencing lags in FinMac '05 when copying and pasting. I noticed that you had been experiencing these lags in page view. I have not tried that. I don't ever use Mass Mover in page view, other than to rearrange measures per system.Lon Lon Price, Los Angeles [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/txstnr/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
I use page view all the time to prepare songs or exercises for students. Lon Price wrote: On Aug 2, 2005, at 9:02 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Have you tried messing around with the Mass Mover tool and selecting measures with it? I and a couple of other people running the Mac version have seen lags with the tool. I have a 1.42 Gigahertz Mac Mini and a 933 G4. I did a transcription project last night. I ended up copying and pasting the entire 5 minute song into one of my templates (for reasons I'll address in a later post), and it seemed a lot faster to me than FinMac '05. In fact, I had been experiencing lags in FinMac '05 when copying and pasting. I noticed that you had been experiencing these lags in page view. I have not tried that. I don't ever use Mass Mover in page view, other than to rearrange measures per system. Lon ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On Aug 2, 2005, at 9:40 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:On 02 Aug 2005, at 7:56 AM, Lon Price wrote: I just installed FinMac '06 tonight, and everything went without a hitch. I ran the preinstall app that MM provided, and ran the GPO update after installing Finale. Everything works. Since I have the full version of GPO, I really can see no need for FinGPO, but it's all really a moot point anyway, since my dual 800 G4 with only 1 Gig of RAM practicallly chokes on only two GPO instruments, flute and piano, for example. I know that the Steinway sample is a big hog, but I tried the lite version and still my computer was pushed to its very limits--both in RAM and processing power. Try dialing back the polyphony on the piano. The default is 64-note polyphony, but try setting it to 32- or 24-note polyphony. (In Kontakt player, the polyphony is the box with the pair of flagged eighth notes, just to the left of the MIDI box -- for piano, it will say 0/64. Click and hold on the "64" and drag down to adjust this number.)I tried this using AU for playback, and didn't see any perceivable difference, but RAM usage was down to around 400 MB. This is with GPO solo flute and Steinway lite. CPU was at a reasonable range (60-70 %).This afternoon I recorded a piece for flute and piano (Pavane by Fauré) using the GPO Studio in FinMac '05, using Quicktime Pro to make the recording. If you have the most recent version of GPO Studio, you don't need any additional application to make the recording. There is a "record" menu with a "Record to file" option.Well, I guess that might be a good reason for using GPO studio over AU, since AU recording isn't supported yet.Tonight I recorded the same piece, using the same method Using GPO Studio? No, no, no. The whole point of Finale 2006 is the AU playback. Use that instead. It's *much* better than GPO Studio. in FinMac '06 and my RAM usage went to 830 MB, and my processors were again very near 100% the entire way. It seems to me that this method (using GPO Studio, rather than AU) is the only way I can use my own sound modules in combination with GPO That's true, but if you are trying to evaluate the improvements in Finale 2006, you have to actually evaluate the improvements! Your piece for flute and piano is not using any of your external sound modules, only GPO instruments -- so use AU! It's a huge improvement over GPO Studio.Yeah, but I'm anticipating my future need for GPO in combination with my own sound modules. I'm evaluating this stuff for my own use, after all. I tried using the full GPO and AU playback (RAM was again creeping toward 800 MB and CPU was in the 70s to 80s, not as bad as GPO Studio). See, much better!Fine, if GPO is all I use for playback. So far, I don't see that happening here, because I have other sounds that I like better.On the Garriton website it says that a computer with a gig of RAM should be able to load an entire orchestra, but I can't even come close to that on my machine. How are you getting these RAM reports? I'm using a freeware applet called MemoryCell from Rogue Amoeba:http://www.rogueamoeba.com/freebies/I'm using MenuMeters. It puts RAM (used-unused) and CPU (percent for each processor) numbers in the menu bar.I'm not seeing anything like the memory usage you're getting.Finale 2006 by itself, with no documents open, uses 20.1 MB.Using the SetupWizard and GPO Finale edition, creating a new empty document for flute and piano, after loading the AU instruments, Finale is using 214 MB -- about a fourth of what you reported.But what I reported was using GPO Studio. I have FinMac '06 open now, with my flute piece and the GPO samples loaded. Activity Monitor says that Fin is using 258 MB, a little more than you're getting. So I get it. Using AU for playback is a lot more efficient, except that you're then locked into using only GPO for playback, and that doesn't sit well with me. Hey, I just got an offer from NI to get the KONTAKT 2 upgrade for half price ($289.50). They say that I can import my own samples into it, including my Giga versions of Dan Dean solo brass and woodwinds. I also have the Giga version of Garritan Strings (lite). But I wouldn't need to spend the money for this if Finale supported other AU plugins, because I also have MOTU's Mach-5, which will play all of these libraries. I think it's a big mistake on MM's part to have this exclusive relationship with NI.I can definitely load an entire orchestra (winds 4331, percussion, harp, strings), *plus* piano and solo violin, on my Mac, and I only have 1 GB RAM. Of course, I have to use the same channel for instruments that share a single staff (like Flutes 1 2) to save memory, and I certainly can't be running any other apps at the same time, but the orchestra *does* load.I haven't tried loading an entire orchestra using AU yet, since I have no need for an ensemble that size at the moment, and work comes before play in this household. ;-)Lon
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 03 Aug 2005, at 2:51 PM, Lon Price wrote:How are you getting these RAM reports? I'm using a freeware applet called MemoryCell from Rogue Amoeba:http://www.rogueamoeba.com/freebies/I'm using MenuMeters. It puts RAM (used-unused) and CPU (percent for each processor) numbers in the menu bar.I think MenuMeters may be giving you a misleading picture of the RAM usage on your machine. MemoryCell puts the Private Memory in the memory bar, which is only number you need to worry about here. It sounds like MenuMeters is displaying some other number -- possibly real memory or virtual memory.- Darcy-[EMAIL PROTECTED]Brooklyn, NY___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On Aug 3, 2005, at 12:04 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:On 03 Aug 2005, at 2:51 PM, Lon Price wrote:How are you getting these RAM reports? I'm using a freeware applet called MemoryCell from Rogue Amoeba:http://www.rogueamoeba.com/freebies/I'm using MenuMeters. It puts RAM (used-unused) and CPU (percent for each processor) numbers in the menu bar.I think MenuMeters may be giving you a misleading picture of the RAM usage on your machine. MemoryCell puts the Private Memory in the memory bar, which is only number you need to worry about here. It sounds like MenuMeters is displaying some other number -- possibly real memory or virtual memory.I tried MemoryCell and got much smaller numbers. When I get a chance, I'll try loading an orchestra. I much appreciate all your help, Darcy. And now, back to work.Lon Lon Price, Los Angeles [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/txstnr/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
I definitely think it's worth a lot. I am just having too much fun with it. I too was never able to compose with computer before in my life. I always needed to sit down in front of piano with pencil and paper, but I jut wrote second movement of the one I wrote yesterday. http://homepage.mac.com/madflute/.Music/FinMac2006_Mov2.mp3 This is not much of a composition, but rather improvisational since I spent only 4 hours from the start. What I want to show you here is that this score has only notes(!). No expression nor articulation. There are only 3 trills (which isn't coming out as I wrote, however), and that's it. FinMac2006 HP is doing great job with FinGPO here. Did I say I am having too much fun? Darn, I have a couple projects past due! -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
A-NO-NE Music wrote: I definitely think it's worth a lot. I am just having too much fun with it. I too was never able to compose with computer before in my life. I always needed to sit down in front of piano with pencil and paper, but I jut wrote second movement of the one I wrote yesterday. http://homepage.mac.com/madflute/.Music/FinMac2006_Mov2.mp3 This is not much of a composition, but rather improvisational since I spent only 4 hours from the start. What I want to show you here is that this score has only notes(!). No expression nor articulation. There are only 3 trills (which isn't coming out as I wrote, however), and that's it. FinMac2006 HP is doing great job with FinGPO here. Did I say I am having too much fun? Darn, I have a couple projects past due! My knee-jerk reaction in the past would have been, Yes, the upgrade is worth it, even if only for the below-the-surface improvements but with this one I'm not sure. I remain unsold on the benefit of GPO -- with my 1.8GHZ P4 system with 1GB ram, I am hearing audio artifacts of playback and often incorrectly played rhythms until I have initiated playback 3 or 4 times, if anything at all is running in the background. But lots of others are raving about it, so I have to accept that for my setup it isn't that good. I also don't agree that the samples are that much better than the soundfont. Some are better, some are worse (this is all subjective, and refers to my concepts of tone only -- obviously not everybody shares my opinion, crotchedy as it is). The new plug-ins such as the mid-measure repeat will be very helpful for a lot of the music I do. I don't work with melismatic choral music very much so I haven't tried that plug-in yet and can't speak for how well it works. I am coming to feel that I didn't completely waste my money on this upgrade, but I also feel that I haven't gotten my money's worth. If you don't use playback for anything other than proofing your scores, you really have to weigh the benefit you would get, vs. the cost. Also, even if you DO use playback, if your machine isn't really powerful you still have to weigh the benefit you would get since the bulk of the upgrade has to do with GPO integration. But, remember that there are always ongoing under-the-surface improvements. Some Mac users are commenting on this upgrade being slower. I'm on windows and I don't notice any slowdown. You might consider waiting a bit and seeing how things play out on this list once all the GPO exhiliration and frustration have died down, and we get back to looking under the hood and commenting on issues that would be more germane to you. So far there's nothing I can see about this upgrade which I haven't been able to accomplish in earlier versions. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
2006 is really slow on OS X. ... on some machines - it's great on mine. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On Aug 2, 2005, at 2:39 AM, dhbailey wrote:My knee-jerk reaction in the past would have been, "Yes, the upgrade is worth it, even if only for the below-the-surface improvements" but with this one I'm not sure. I just installed FinMac '06 tonight, and everything went without a hitch. I ran the preinstall app that MM provided, and ran the GPO update after installing Finale. Everything works. Since I have the full version of GPO, I really can see no need for FinGPO, but it's all really a moot point anyway, since my dual 800 G4 with only 1 Gig of RAM practicallly chokes on only two GPO instruments, flute and piano, for example. I know that the Steinway sample is a big hog, but I tried the lite version and still my computer was pushed to its very limits--both in RAM and processing power.This afternoon I recorded a piece for flute and piano (Pavane by Fauré) using the GPO Studio in FinMac '05, using Quicktime Pro to make the recording. With these two instruments loaded my RAM usage went to 600 MB, and my two processors were near 100% for the entire length of the recording.Tonight I recorded the same piece, using the same method in FinMac '06 and my RAM usage went to 830 MB, and my processors were again very near 100% the entire way. It seems to me that this method (using GPO Studio, rather than AU) is the only way I can use my own sound modules in combination with GPO, but man, it hits the computer hard!I also tried recording the same piece using FinGPO (RAM went to around 500 MB and processors were in the 60s to 70s), but the sound quality suffered quite a bit. I tried using the full GPO and AU playback (RAM was again creeping toward 800 MB and CPU was in the 70s to 80s, not as bad as GPO Studio).On the Garriton website it says that a computer with a gig of RAM should be able to load an entire orchestra, but I can't even come close to that on my machine. So I don't see that I'll be using GPO too much until I can upgrade my computer, but I knew that would be the case.Also, none of the flute sounds were really very convincing to my ears, but I am a flute player, so you can take that opinion with a grain of salt. I like Dan Dean's solo winds better than GPO, but I can't use them in Finale, because of MM's marriage to GPO and NI.On the other hand:1. I'm very happy to have 8 X 16 MIDI slots, which now means I can use all of my sound modules (dated as they are, I still have a fondness for them). And, like I said, the GPO Studio can be used to load GPO samples along with my sound modules.2. Slurs and hairpins really look 100% better! They're absolutely elegant! (at least compared to the way they used to look on a Mac)3. I completed a Mozart Minuet and Trio, arranged for alto sax and piano, in about an hour, and things seemed to me to be a little snappier than FinMac '05. But keep in mind that I was using my own sounds, since we all know GPO contains no saxes, anyway. (BTW, the demo saxes on Gary's website are pretty impressive to my ears, and I'm a sax player. I'm looking forward to getting that collection as soon as it comes out.) But the important thing to me was that after playing with GPO for a while, I was able to get right back to work. In other words, the upgrade didn't disrupt my workflow the way some previous upgrades did, especially the one where they changed all the Simple Entry keystrokes. Rather than relearn Simple I switched to Speedy and never looked back.4. Human Playback is improved--it almost plays the flute trills and grace notes convincingly.5. The Studio View comes in handy for adjusting volume between the two instruments. I've often seen dynamic markings one degree lower for the piano (sax-f, pno-mf, etc.) in pieces like this, but in this piece dynamics were identical in both parts, so the pno. tended to overpower the sax. No problem, just back off the pno. volume in the mixer. The solo-accompaniment balance can also be adjusted in the HP prefs, BTW. The Tap Tempo has me baffled so far, though. I guess I'll have to read up on that.So, yeah, I think the upgrade is worth the price, even though I probably won't be using GPO much for now, and that's what all the ballyhoo has been about.I'll still be using Digital Performer for recording mockups, though. When it comes to recording, I just don't see Finale ever giving me the flexibility I have in DP.I'm also waiting for my copy of Sibelius 4 with its much-discussed "dynamic part linking." I'm with Hiro--I'm having fun with all of this stuff. ;-)Lon Lon Price, Los Angeles [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/txstnr/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
People have been saying GPO is not that better from FinSoundFont, but how HP is customized for GPO really counts. I mean, I have written two sequences with Fin2006 in two nights so far, and the second one even doesn't have almost nothing but note entries. Comparison playback between FinGPO and FinSoundFont is night and day to my ear, not only the sample quality but also how HP handles them, more importantly. Mind you GPO doesn't sound good at all if you solo, but it sounds much more than fair to its price when in ensemble. GPO really deserves the credit. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
I also don't agree that the samples are that much better than the soundfont. I'm totally aghast - to me it's as plain as a slap in the face, they're hugely better. Can you honestly listen to Hiro or Jaris recording and tell me the SoundFont sounds better than that? Actually - maybe it's my SoundFont that has something wrong with it? But honestly, it sucks so badly I'm amazed anyone would think there was anything lkess than a royal mile between them. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Simon Troup wrote: I also don't agree that the samples are that much better than the soundfont. I'm totally aghast - to me it's as plain as a slap in the face, they're hugely better. Can you honestly listen to Hiro or Jaris recording and tell me the SoundFont sounds better than that? Actually - maybe it's my SoundFont that has something wrong with it? But honestly, it sucks so badly I'm amazed anyone would think there was anything lkess than a royal mile between them. Since there is no single monolithic identifiable ideal tone for any single instrument, there is always bound to be disagreement about the tonal quality of any sound, sampled or real. Tyler was wonderful in working on a file of mine to try to show me what GPO could do. He returned the file to me and I played it and was less than impressed. He also sent me an MP3 file of his playback to ensure that I was hearing what he was hearing. I was still less than impressed. Playing the same thing through the soundfont sounded very good to me. The trombone sounds like a french horn to my ears. Tyler likes that tone from a trombone, I don't. I find the trombone tone in the soundfont to be much more the trombone tone I like. With reverb and without reverb, I still don't care for the GPO trombone tone. There's nothing wrong with me for liking the soundfont trombone better, and there's nothing wrong with Tyler preferring the GPO trombone tone. Different strokes for different folks. That's alright. I don't believe I have said that I am aghast that anybody could prefer the GPO sounds, I have no problem with anybody who likes them. Wasn't Darcy already complaining about the sampled drum(stick) sounds in the forthcoming Jazz/BigBand set? The people who sampled those drum sounds obviously thought they were good sounds. At least I think it's safe to assume that Gary Garritan is only sampling sounds he thinks are the best. Maybe that's not a safe assumption, but nothing I've seen or heard about him would make me think otherwise. Your soundfont is probably fine, and my GPO samples are fine. We just prefer different sounds. That the sounds I prefer came as an adjunct to a much more robust upgrade and the sounds you prefer came as the major aspect of this upgrade is just a petty point I have to get over. It's like trying to decide which trumpet player's tone is the best: Maurice Andre, Wynton Marsalis, Louis Armstong, Al Hirt, Timofey Dokshutzer (I probably butchered the poor guy's name), Miles Davis, Bubba Miley, Cootie Williams, and on and on. Until some mega-sample set comes out with a bazillion different tones for each instrument, not everybody will agree that any given sample set contains the best sounds. I don't even like the sampled Steinway in the GPO, vastly preferring the piano tone of the soundfont or of my Kurzweil PC2r module. And perhaps we all agree there's a royal mile between them -- it's just which is a royal mile above the other that's in dispute. I'm just glad that the soundfont (and the ability to point to ANY soundfont I want to, while the VST users are severely limited as to which sample sets they can use) capability is still there in Finale2006. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Wow, you missed the boat. You could have gotten the FULL version of GPO back in May when they were doing that group buy. That was the best productivity software purchase I made this year. $129 or something. FULL GPO. If Finale 2006 had speed increases, it would have been worth it. If it had something like Sibelius 4's linked parts, it would have been worth it. If it had something. There is no single feature that pops out as that is the reason I need it. Not like the Tuplets in the previous version, etc. Raymond Horton wrote: I'm a big GPO fan, and I bit back in May or June and ordered the upgrade. I've been looking forward to all the improvements. I know MM is holding back the discs because of the Mac install prob, but I'm a Win user (although I do prefer the disc be usable on both - just in case a Mac comes walking through the door for some strange reason). Anyone have an idea when I might receive it? Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Have you tried messing around with the Mass Mover tool and selecting measures with it? I and a couple of other people running the Mac version have seen lags with the tool. I have a 1.42 Gigahertz Mac Mini and a 933 G4. Lon Price wrote: 3. I completed a Mozart Minuet and Trio, arranged for alto sax and piano, in about an hour, and things seemed to me to be a little snappier than FinMac '05. But keep in mind that I was using my own sounds, since we all know GPO contains no saxes, anyway. (BTW, the demo saxes on Gary's website are pretty impressive to my ears, and I'm a sax player. I'm looking forward to getting that collection as soon as it comes out.) But the important thing to me was that after playing with GPO for a while, I was able to get right back to work. In other words, the upgrade didn't disrupt my workflow the way some previous upgrades did, especially the one where they changed all the Simple Entry keystrokes. Rather than relearn Simple I switched to Speedy and never looked back. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
And what would your machine be then? Simon Troup wrote: 2006 is really slow on OS X. ... on some machines - it's great on mine. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Hiro: Once again, I'm really liking the sounds. Please clarify, you are using only the FinGpo, yes? Not the full GPO? Dean On Aug 1, 2005, at 11:50 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: FinMac2006 HP is doing great job with FinGPO here. Did I say I am having too much fun? Darn, I have a couple projects past due! -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
There's nothing wrong with me for liking the soundfont trombone better, and there's nothing wrong with Tyler preferring the GPO trombone tone. Hi David, don't get me wrong - that's not what I'm saying or impying. It's just that my view of the difference leads me to think that it transcends the possibly of it being down to taste. Can I ask what kind of playback arrangement you have there, are you listening on monitoring or Hi-Fi grade equipment, or something else? I'm quite perpared to believe at the end of it that you may just like the soundfont better, but please excuse me for wanting to rule out a few obvious possibilities first. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
If Finale 2006 had speed increases Sorry to repeat this again, but I'm defineately getting speed improvement on my G5 dual 2Ghz. I'm thinking that for those with more powerful graphics etc the core graphics update is working really well. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Ok, fine. So you have a Dual G5. The rest of us probably don't have that. There is no reason why Finale 2006 should be slow doing something like selecting a measure using the mass mover tool. There is a delay. No such delay existed in 2005. Simon Troup wrote: If Finale 2006 had speed increases Sorry to repeat this again, but I'm defineately getting speed improvement on my G5 dual 2Ghz. I'm thinking that for those with more powerful graphics etc the core graphics update is working really well. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 02 Aug 2005, at 7:56 AM, Lon Price wrote: I just installed FinMac '06 tonight, and everything went without a hitch. I ran the preinstall app that MM provided, and ran the GPO update after installing Finale. Everything works. Since I have the full version of GPO, I really can see no need for FinGPO, but it's all really a moot point anyway, since my dual 800 G4 with only 1 Gig of RAM practicallly chokes on only two GPO instruments, flute and piano, for example. I know that the Steinway sample is a big hog, but I tried the lite version and still my computer was pushed to its very limits--both in RAM and processing power. Try dialing back the polyphony on the piano. The default is 64-note polyphony, but try setting it to 32- or 24-note polyphony. (In Kontakt player, the polyphony is the box with the pair of flagged eighth notes, just to the left of the MIDI box -- for piano, it will say 0/64. Click and hold on the 64 and drag down to adjust this number.) This afternoon I recorded a piece for flute and piano (Pavane by Fauré) using the GPO Studio in FinMac '05, using Quicktime Pro to make the recording. If you have the most recent version of GPO Studio, you don't need any additional application to make the recording. There is a record menu with a Record to file option. With these two instruments loaded my RAM usage went to 600 MB, and my two processors were near 100% for the entire length of the recording. It's normal that playing back samples would try to use all of the available processing power. Tonight I recorded the same piece, using the same method Using GPO Studio? No, no, no. The whole point of Finale 2006 is the AU playback. Use that instead. It's *much* better than GPO Studio. in FinMac '06 and my RAM usage went to 830 MB, and my processors were again very near 100% the entire way. It seems to me that this method (using GPO Studio, rather than AU) is the only way I can use my own sound modules in combination with GPO That's true, but if you are trying to evaluate the improvements in Finale 2006, you have to actually evaluate the improvements! Your piece for flute and piano is not using any of your external sound modules, only GPO instruments -- so use AU! It's a huge improvement over GPO Studio. I tried using the full GPO and AU playback (RAM was again creeping toward 800 MB and CPU was in the 70s to 80s, not as bad as GPO Studio). See, much better! On the Garriton website it says that a computer with a gig of RAM should be able to load an entire orchestra, but I can't even come close to that on my machine. How are you getting these RAM reports? I'm using a freeware applet called MemoryCell from Rogue Amoeba: http://www.rogueamoeba.com/freebies/ I'm not seeing anything like the memory usage you're getting. Finale 2006 by itself, with no documents open, uses 20.1 MB. Using the SetupWizard and GPO Finale edition, creating a new empty document for flute and piano, after loading the AU instruments, Finale is using 214 MB -- about a fourth of what you reported. I can definitely load an entire orchestra (winds 4331, percussion, harp, strings), *plus* piano and solo violin, on my Mac, and I only have 1 GB RAM. Of course, I have to use the same channel for instruments that share a single staff (like Flutes 1 2) to save memory, and I certainly can't be running any other apps at the same time, but the orchestra *does* load. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 02 Aug 2005, at 12:32 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Ok, fine. So you have a Dual G5. The rest of us probably don't have that. There is no reason why Finale 2006 should be slow doing something like selecting a measure using the mass mover tool. There is a delay. No such delay existed in 2005. Well, the redraw *is* much faster in Fin2006 (when advancing pages, etc). But you're right, this very annoying delay with the Mass Mover tool almost completely ruins what speed enhancements there are. We were all really disappointed to see that Fin2006 shipped with this bug, and I hope it's a high-priority fix for maintenance. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Yeah. I just went through the MakeMusic forum: http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6p=2m=121078 And there are people there experiencing the same issues. Darcy James Argue wrote: Well, the redraw *is* much faster in Fin2006 (when advancing pages, etc). But you're right, this very annoying delay with the Mass Mover tool almost completely ruins what speed enhancements there are. We were all really disappointed to see that Fin2006 shipped with this bug, and I hope it's a high-priority fix for maintenance. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 02/08/05, Simon Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Finale 2006 had speed increases Sorry to repeat this again, but I'm defineately getting speed improvement on my G5 dual 2Ghz. I'm thinking that for those with more powerful graphics etc the core graphics update is working really well. CoreGraphics is a Tiger (10.4 to the uninitiated) improvement, right? That could explain the lag some of us stuck in 10.3 are seeing in FinMac2k6. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
If Finale 2006 had speed increases Sorry to repeat this again, but I'm defineately getting speed improvement on my G5 dual 2Ghz. I'm thinking that for those with more powerful graphics etc the core graphics update is working really well. Ok, fine. So you have a Dual G5. The rest of us probably don't have that. Which is kind of my point, you're making blanket statements about Fin 2006 being slower, which is patently not true as it's not affecting me, or probably anyone else with a machine that can harness the core graphics stuff. The only negatives I'm seeing are fairly rare things to do with EPS files which won't affect a lot of people unless they use a lot of weird shapes in their scores. I'm trying to assemble it all for macsupport now. My thinking is that MM! should be utilising the latest technologies, if you're not benefitting from that work now then you will be in a couple of years time or whatever, that's always been the case. When I was running a 6500 and it was getting a little long in the tooth (I don't like to remember it) upgrading anything meant a slow down, OS, applications, anything. If you've got a mac mini, you should be no more suprised that you can't run Finale at 100% of it's ability than you should expect to run Photoshop at 100% of it's ability - mac mini is clearly a consumer rather than a pro machine. Just as you shouldn't be suprised to find that the number of Logic Pro audio tracks and DSP power available to you won't be anything like what's available to me. That said, you ought to be able to select a couple of bars in mass edit without a long delay - all my thoughts on power are really about the GPO implementation. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On Aug 2, 2005, at 9:45 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Darcy: While you may be available ... I think I'm shopping for a new iMac today, as previously discussed. A few last (I hope) questions. When loading data via FireWire to the new Mac, will the following items be uploaded without getting screwed up: My MIDI configuration (computer to Syth, etc.) All the iwhatever files (iPhoto, iTunes, etc.), Address Book, eMail Configuration for my high speed internet connection And, will the Fin2006 which is now running on Panther, be ok to upload to the new OS, which is tiger? Sorry to be such a novice ... Dean ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
CoreGraphics is a Tiger (10.4 to the uninitiated) improvement, right? That could explain the lag some of us stuck in 10.3 are seeing in FinMac2k6. Good point! Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 02 Aug 2005, at 1:00 PM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 02/08/05, Simon Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Finale 2006 had speed increases Sorry to repeat this again, but I'm defineately getting speed improvement on my G5 dual 2Ghz. I'm thinking that for those with more powerful graphics etc the core graphics update is working really well. CoreGraphics is a Tiger (10.4 to the uninitiated) improvement, right? That could explain the lag some of us stuck in 10.3 are seeing in FinMac2k6. No. I'm still on 10.3.9, and my graphics card isn't Core Graphics-compatible anyway. Redraw -- actually drawing the music, like when you advance pages in Page View -- is *much* faster in Fin2006. There are other problems that hamper Fin2006 productivity (like the laggy Mass Edit tool), but actual redraw speed is much improved. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Oh stop. Stop with the bleeding you need more horse power crap. If I, and a lot of other people, including people who are using Dual G5s see a lag or delay in just selecting a damn measure, then there is a problem. I expect simple things, like this, to remain at the same speed, not to get slower. You can take the Photoshop analogy, and go render it somewhere else. Simon Troup wrote: Which is kind of my point, you're making blanket statements about Fin 2006 being slower, which is patently not true as it's not affecting me, or probably anyone else with a machine that can harness the core graphics stuff. The only negatives I'm seeing are fairly rare things to do with EPS files which won't affect a lot of people unless they use a lot of weird shapes in their scores. I'm trying to assemble it all for macsupport now. My thinking is that MM! should be utilising the latest technologies, if you're not benefitting from that work now then you will be in a couple of years time or whatever, that's always been the case. When I was running a 6500 and it was getting a little long in the tooth (I don't like to remember it) upgrading anything meant a slow down, OS, applications, anything. If you've got a mac mini, you should be no more suprised that you can't run Finale at 100% of it's ability than you should expect to run Photoshop at 100% of it's ability - mac mini is clearly a consumer rather than a pro machine. Just as you shouldn't be suprised to find that the number of Logic Pro audio tracks and DSP power available to you won't be anything like what's available to me. That said, you ought to be able to select a couple of bars in mass edit without a long delay - all my thoughts on power are really about the GPO implementation. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/coreimage/ I'm not sure highlighting a measure and then highlighting another measure is something core image handles. Screen redraws, yes. Simple user interface things...I don't think so. Then explain why 2005 can select measures without any lag? Brad Beyenhof wrote: CoreGraphics is a Tiger (10.4 to the uninitiated) improvement, right? That could explain the lag some of us stuck in 10.3 are seeing in FinMac2k6. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Redraw -- actually drawing the music, like when you advance pages in Page View -- is *much* faster in Fin2006. There are other problems that hamper Fin2006 productivity (like the laggy Mass Edit tool), but actual redraw speed is much improved. I'm not getting the bug I don't think. Can you descibe the problem, maybe I'm getting it but very quick. I suppose looking at it again there's a minimal delay in deselecting measures, but nothing that would slow me down? Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Oh stop. Stop with the bleeding you need more horse power crap. Touchy :) Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6m=121078 Check that out. Also, the thing I experience is just using the Mass Mover tool. Select a measure in page view, hold down the shift, and select another measure. There is a lag there. And at least one other Dual G5 user experiences it. Simon Troup wrote: Redraw -- actually drawing the music, like when you advance pages in Page View -- is *much* faster in Fin2006. There are other problems that hamper Fin2006 productivity (like the laggy Mass Edit tool), but actual redraw speed is much improved. I'm not getting the bug I don't think. Can you descibe the problem, maybe I'm getting it but very quick. I suppose looking at it again there's a minimal delay in deselecting measures, but nothing that would slow me down? Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Simon, You have to imagine an exponentially larger delay on slower machines, both in selecting and deselecting measures. This bug is very real, and the people at Coda know about it and want to fix it. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 02 Aug 2005, at 1:18 PM, Simon Troup wrote: Redraw -- actually drawing the music, like when you advance pages in Page View -- is *much* faster in Fin2006. There are other problems that hamper Fin2006 productivity (like the laggy Mass Edit tool), but actual redraw speed is much improved. I'm not getting the bug I don't think. Can you descibe the problem, maybe I'm getting it but very quick. I suppose looking at it again there's a minimal delay in deselecting measures, but nothing that would slow me down? Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
No, not at all. It is just that other people are having the same problem as I, and they have machines as fast as yours. Throwing more horsepower at it isn't always the way to fix something. Go read the FinaleMusic forum. There seem to be some rather serious 2006 performance issues. Simon Troup wrote: Oh stop. Stop with the bleeding you need more horse power crap. Touchy :) Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
At 12:45 PM -0400 8/2/05, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 02 Aug 2005, at 12:32 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Ok, fine. So you have a Dual G5. The rest of us probably don't have that. There is no reason why Finale 2006 should be slow doing something like selecting a measure using the mass mover tool. There is a delay. No such delay existed in 2005. Well, the redraw *is* much faster in Fin2006 (when advancing pages, etc). But you're right, this very annoying delay with the Mass Mover tool almost completely ruins what speed enhancements there are. We were all really disappointed to see that Fin2006 shipped with this bug, and I hope it's a high-priority fix for maintenance. I find that even though there is a lag in selecting measures in Mass Mover, you can type ahead with the operation you were going to do (copy, paste, built-in macros, Quickey macros, etc.) and the whole thing works faster than 2005. In other words the lag is a momentary graphic lag and not a functional lag. (I recognize that in many cases that is the same thing!) -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6m=121078 Check that out. Also, the thing I experience is just using the Mass Mover tool. Select a measure in page view, hold down the shift, and select another measure. There is a lag there. And at least one other Dual G5 user experiences it. Eric, firstly, at the end of email I stated that I was thinking about the GPO thing, and how we are looking basically at the latest sampling technology. Running Logic and all that AU stuff you just need a faster machine, I had to up my RAM by 2GB just to use the BFD drum sample AU, and to my mind that's a lot like GPO - there could hardly be a better analogy, these things are hungry, they just are, I don't want to fall out about it! Select a measure in page view, hold down the shift, and select another measure. I'm literally not getting any delay, not a millisecond. Maybe we should post our machine specs and results and see if we can figure out which machines/OS/Spec is susceptible. If we can isolate the problem we may be able to speed up a fix. MacOS 10.4.2 Dual 2Ghz PowerPC G5 3.5GB DDR SDRAM Overall I'm seeing speed improvements, hopefully this mass edit thing is a bug that will be solved quite quickly. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Brad Beyenhof schrieb: CoreGraphics is a Tiger (10.4 to the uninitiated) improvement, right? That could explain the lag some of us stuck in 10.3 are seeing in FinMac2k6. No, Core Graphics was introduced with 10.2 I believe. This is not the reason. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
No, not at all. It is just that other people are having the same problem as I, and they have machines as fast as yours. Throwing more horsepower at it isn't always the way to fix something. Go read the FinaleMusic forum. There seem to be some rather serious 2006 performance issues. Eric/Darcy not trying to say it doesn't exist at all, I'm just trying to establish if we could issue a more clear warning such that people will know if this will be a deal breaker or not if they're on jaguar (for example! no idea what the boundaies are of course). I was hearing a few blanket statements that to my mind weren't justified (as blanket statements that is) as I simply wasn't getting it here. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Brad was mixing up CoreImage and CoreGraphics. It's CoreImage which is new to Tiger: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/coreimage/ - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 02 Aug 2005, at 1:20 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: Brad Beyenhof schrieb: CoreGraphics is a Tiger (10.4 to the uninitiated) improvement, right? That could explain the lag some of us stuck in 10.3 are seeing in FinMac2k6. No, Core Graphics was introduced with 10.2 I believe. This is not the reason. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Simon Troup wrote: Eric, firstly, at the end of email I stated that I was thinking about the GPO thing, and how we are looking basically at the latest sampling technology. Running Logic and all that AU stuff you just need a faster machine, I had to up my RAM by 2GB just to use the BFD drum sample AU, and to my mind that's a lot like GPO - there could hardly be a better analogy, these things are hungry, they just are, I don't want to fall out about it! Thats all well and good. I do run the latest sampling technology, ON ANOTHER COMPUTER. I slave GPO off a P4 machine. It just works better that way. What I am talking about is just the general program. Finale. Not the fluff called GPO that is included with Finale. The core program. Finale 2006. I'm literally not getting any delay, not a millisecond. Maybe we should post our machine specs and results and see if we can figure out which machines/OS/Spec is susceptible. If we can isolate the problem we may be able to speed up a fix. MacOS 10.4.2 Dual 2Ghz PowerPC G5 3.5GB DDR SDRAM Overall I'm seeing speed improvements, hopefully this mass edit thing is a bug that will be solved quite quickly. Consider yourself lucky then. The rest of us Mac users seem to be in a lag zone. I'm not interested in bug fixing for Coda/MakeMusic or whatever. They are supposedly aware of it. They better fix it, and soon. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Blanket Statement: If you have a newer, Dual G5 with a lot of ram, then this update is for you. If you have a Mac Mini, or any older Mac, which ran Finale 2005 fine, this update is NOT for you until they fix some problems. Stay on 2005 or earlier. Good enough? Simon Troup wrote: Eric/Darcy not trying to say it doesn't exist at all, I'm just trying to establish if we could issue a more clear warning such that people will know if this will be a deal breaker or not if they're on jaguar (for example! no idea what the boundaies are of course). I was hearing a few blanket statements that to my mind weren't justified (as blanket statements that is) as I simply wasn't getting it here. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Please don't make this rumour continue. CoreGraphics as utilized by Finale is not new in 10.4. It was there much earlier. Johannes Simon Troup schrieb: CoreGraphics is a Tiger (10.4 to the uninitiated) improvement, right? That could explain the lag some of us stuck in 10.3 are seeing in FinMac2k6. Good point! Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Eric Dannewitz schrieb: Good! However, how did this slip by the beta testers? Are they all on Dual G5s or something? No, it didn't slip by us, but our influence on such things aren't as big as you might expect. A lot of beta testers were very unhappy about this. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Simon Troup schrieb: Which is kind of my point, you're making blanket statements about Fin 2006 being slower, which is patently not true as it's not affecting me, or probably anyone else with a machine that can harness the core graphics stuff. Sorry, Simon, but you are wrong. I have an almost brand new iBook, which does support Core Graphics, and I am seeing the slow down when selecting with massedit. I don't think this has anything to do with newer or older machines, although naturally it will be more obvious on the not top of the range machines. There is no reason for this slowdown at all. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Consider yourself lucky then. The rest of us Mac users seem to be in a lag zone. I'm not interested in bug fixing for Coda/MakeMusic or whatever. They are supposedly aware of it. They better fix it, and soon. OK if that's your attitude, I'm interested in trying to solve problems. The fact that I'm not getting this could be a clue as to what the problem is. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Simon Troup wrote: There's nothing wrong with me for liking the soundfont trombone better, and there's nothing wrong with Tyler preferring the GPO trombone tone. Hi David, don't get me wrong - that's not what I'm saying or impying. It's just that my view of the difference leads me to think that it transcends the possibly of it being down to taste. Can I ask what kind of playback arrangement you have there, are you listening on monitoring or Hi-Fi grade equipment, or something else? I'm quite perpared to believe at the end of it that you may just like the soundfont better, but please excuse me for wanting to rule out a few obvious possibilities first. I have a pair of Harmon-Kardon computer speakers, with a Radio Shack subwoofer. I have also listened through Koss Pro4A headphones. I hear the differences no matter what I listen to the sounds through. I definitely hear the difference. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Some of the GPO sounds are a bit better (strings) some are worse (trombone, piano) to my ears. And I am definitely listening to both the soundfont and the GPO playback through exactly the same setup. The same setup which plays back my audio CDs beautifully. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Blanket Statement: If you have a newer, Dual G5 with a lot of ram, then this update is for you. If you have a Mac Mini, or any older Mac, which ran Finale 2005 fine, this update is NOT for you until they fix some problems. Stay on 2005 or earlier. Good enough? Yeah lovely :) Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
So this was a known concern before 2006 shipped? Wow. My jaw has dropped. That is totally irresponsible. On a side note, I have been emailing Brian from tech support. Here is what he says: Regarding the speed, yes, Finale 2006 has added more features than any other version before ever has. The amount of resources, processing speed, and RAM that Finale needs has nearly doubled since Finale 2004 (ie more features=more processing demands). Ok, so, if you take out GPO, where are all the features that are taking up all the resources/speed/ram? Damn, I would never have thought I would actually consider jumping the Finale ship, but, to have a performance issues like mass mover slip by is criminal. Johannes Gebauer wrote: No, it didn't slip by us, but our influence on such things aren't as big as you might expect. A lot of beta testers were very unhappy about this. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 02 Aug 2005, at 2:11 PM, dhbailey wrote: I definitely hear the difference. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Some of the GPO sounds are a bit better (strings) some are worse (trombone, piano) to my ears. You honestly like the SoundFont piano better than the GPO Steinway??? [boggle] Well, okay then. I'm perplexed as to how anyone could possibly feel that way, but as they say on the internets, YMMV. But by every objective technical measure (number of notes sampled, number of dynamics sampled, quality of the instrument sampled, quality of the recording, etc) the GPO piano is vastly superior. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
What do you want to solve? That we all should ditch all our existing systems in favor of Dual G5 2.6s or something? Johannes said it was a concern in the beta testing. He just said as much: No, it didn't slip by us, but our influence on such things aren't as big as you might expect. A lot of beta testers were very unhappy about this. Johannes So explain how YOU are going to solve it? Simon Troup wrote: OK if that's your attitude, I'm interested in trying to solve problems. The fact that I'm not getting this could be a clue as to what the problem is. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
What do you want to solve? That we all should ditch all our existing systems in favor of Dual G5 2.6s or something? As I said The fact that I'm not getting this could be a clue as to what the problem is.. I'm really bored of this, you just want an argument. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 02 Aug 2005, at 2:11 PM, dhbailey wrote: I definitely hear the difference. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Some of the GPO sounds are a bit better (strings) some are worse (trombone, piano) to my ears. You honestly like the SoundFont piano better than the GPO Steinway??? [boggle] Well, okay then. I'm perplexed as to how anyone could possibly feel that way, but as they say on the internets, YMMV. But by every objective technical measure (number of notes sampled, number of dynamics sampled, quality of the instrument sampled, quality of the recording, etc) the GPO piano is vastly superior. But there's no accounting for taste is there? I guess that's why there are Steinway pianos and Bosendorfer pianos and Yamaha pianos in concert halls around the world. When I listen I couldn't care less about objective technical measures, it's the sound that I care about. I don't think I'm alone. That must be why there are many different sample collections even within the Native Instruments format, several different orchestral groups, to say nothing about other format collections such as GigaSampler. I'm glad to have been able to boggle at least one or two people today. Momma always said that it's good for people's minds to be boggled now and then. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Not at all. I'm saying that it is a problem. You said you don't see it. Thats fine. Good for you. Enjoy Finale 2006. But then you say you want to fix it. How? I've told MacSupport what has happened. What are YOU going to do to fix it? Or to get to the root of the problem? Look, the original question was was it worth it to upgrade. I say no. If you have a system like Simon's, then go for it. Enjoy. If you have a lesser system, or have read in the Finale Forum of people with setups like yours having issues, then no. I'd say most of us Mac users are in the NO column right now. I just want a music notation program that works well. So far, Finale 2006 for Mac is not working well. It's a step backwards if you use Mass Mover, which I do. A lot. Simon Troup wrote: As I said The fact that I'm not getting this could be a clue as to what the problem is.. I'm really bored of this, you just want an argument. Simon Troup ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
But then you say you want to fix it. How? I've told MacSupport what has happened. What are YOU going to do to fix it? Or to get to the root of the problem? The first thing the developers are going to want to know is: 1) Who is affected? 2) What are they running? 3) Who is not affected? 4) What are the running? 5) What's the difference? I'm contributing to 4) and 5), that's why I'm telling you I'm not affected, not because I want to ram it down your throat that I'm having a wonderful life or anything for gods sake :) Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Eric, Simon wasn't saying he *liked* the problem. But in order for Makemusic to fix this bug, it's helpful to have information about systems on which it *doesn't* happen as well as those on which it *does*. You and Simon are running the same application, so it stands to reason that the problem likely has to do with differences between your systems or differences between your configurations. Simon was trying to figure out what some of those relevant differences might be. Aaron, thanks, precisely. For example, did you know that if you run Codetek Virtual Desktop you can't open and operate two windows at once in Finale 2006. It could be something weird like that, but with something used a lot more (there seem to be quite a few reports of it). Who knows, we're hardly getting to the root of it by misunderstanding each otehr. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Title: RE: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it? I hate to get involved in this very heated conversation but since you quote my post I thought I would give you a slight update on my tests. I have seen a speed variance with the lag problem when selecting using Mass Mover and Smart Shape tool with different files. I have not figured out what the difference in the files is since there does not seem to be any logic. Some large band score with lots of measures give me lag and others with the same amount of instrumentation and measures give me a shorter lag in the same Finale session. It's really hard to pin-point where this problem is coming from. The funny thing is that some of the String Orchestra examples with no more than 50 measures seem to lag even more. I would have thought the opposite. I am in the process of digging deep to find that one thing in my files that trigger this variance. I will keep those who are interested posted if I can find it. Sure seems difficult. Steve -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Eric Dannewitz Reply To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2005 12:25 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it? http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6=121078 Check that out. Also, the thing I experience is just using the Mass Mover tool. Select a measure in page view, hold down the shift, and select another measure. There is a lag there. And at least one other Dual G5 user experiences it. Simon Troup wrote: Redraw -- actually drawing the music, like when you advance pages in Page View -- is *much* faster in Fin2006. There are other problems that hamper Fin2006 productivity (like the laggy Mass Edit tool), but actual redraw speed is much improved. I'm not getting the bug I don't think. Can you descibe the problem, maybe I'm getting it but very quick. I suppose looking at it again there's a minimal delay in deselecting measures, but nothing that would slow me down? Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
I have seen a speed variance with the lag problem when selecting using Mass Mover and Smart Shape tool with different files. I have not figured out what the difference in the files is since there does not seem to be any logic. Some large band score with lots of measures give me lag and others with the same amount of instrumentation and measures give me a shorter lag in the same Finale session. It's really hard to pin-point where this problem is coming from. The funny thing is that some of the String Orchestra examples with no more than 50 measures seem to lag even more. I would have thought the opposite. I am in the process of digging deep to find that one thing in my files that trigger this variance. Steve, would it be possible to send me one of your files, I do mainly guitar music so maybe it's just that I'm not using something that everyone else uses all the time? Or is this demonstrable if you have just 4 empty bars?! Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 2 Aug 2005 at 11:26, dhbailey wrote: I don't even like the sampled Steinway in the GPO, vastly preferring the piano tone of the soundfont or of my Kurzweil PC2r module. I listened to the GPO demos and thought the Steinway piano sounded absolutely dreadful. It sounded like it was not properly voiced, with a felty, deadened slap tone to each of the notes, and insufficient ring. The problem with these sample sets is that people have different esthetics about how the instruments should sound, as you say, but in the case of the Steinway, I don't get it -- who would buy a piano that sounded so bad (unless it was very cheap)? -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Title: RE: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it? Thanks Simon for your interest but unfortunately I cannot distribute any of these files. I have found the same problem with an empty document as well so if your not seeing it then I am sure MM would like to know that and also know that you are not the only one. We should all remember everyone has different tolerances when it comes to speed and lag. For me 2006's speed and lag is not acceptable. It sounds as if everything is working well for you (graphically). Steve From: Simon Troup Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2005 3:17 PM would it be possible to send me one of your files, I do mainly guitar music so maybe it's just that I'm not using something that everyone else uses all the time? Or is this demonstrable if you have just 4 empty bars?! Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 2 Aug 2005 at 14:17, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 02 Aug 2005, at 2:11 PM, dhbailey wrote: I definitely hear the difference. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Some of the GPO sounds are a bit better (strings) some are worse (trombone, piano) to my ears. You honestly like the SoundFont piano better than the GPO Steinway??? [boggle] Well, okay then. I'm perplexed as to how anyone could possibly feel that way, but as they say on the internets, YMMV. But by every objective technical measure (number of notes sampled, number of dynamics sampled, quality of the instrument sampled, quality of the recording, etc) the GPO piano is vastly superior. Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Finale Soundfont piano is better, but it at least doesn't have the terrible tonal flatness of the GPO Steinway as I heard it in the demos. Of course, again, I'm accustomed to the piano sound of my soundcard, which is quite good for an older soundcard (though certainly much more limited in the number of samples used to produce it). It's like the objection to the GPO drum sample -- if you sample something that basically sounds wrong, it isn't really fixed by the flexibility and variety of samples. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Eric Dannewitz wrote: On a side note, I have been emailing Brian from tech support. Here is what he says: Regarding the speed, yes, Finale 2006 has added more features than any other version before ever has. The amount of resources, processing speed, and RAM that Finale needs has nearly doubled since Finale 2004 (ie more features=more processing demands). Ok, so, if you take out GPO, where are all the features that are taking up all the resources/speed/ram? From a previous post here or on the Finale forum, someone from Makemusic said that a lot of the external files that were created on your HD (presumably the Temp files) are now placed in RAM. So that would account for a lot of the increased memory requirement. Matthew -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 2/08/2005 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Fair enough, but I have a gig of ram on one machine (mini mac) and a gig and a half on the other (933 G4). No other programs are running. I'm doing a full score either. Just a sheet. Matthew Hindson Fastmail Account wrote: From a previous post here or on the Finale forum, someone from Makemusic said that a lot of the external files that were created on your HD (presumably the Temp files) are now placed in RAM. So that would account for a lot of the increased memory requirement. Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
Darcy James Argue / 2005/08/02 / 12:40 PM wrote: so use AU! It's a huge improvement over GPO Studio. Not to nitpicking but just to be technically correct, I think it is less confusing to say GPO Studio vs Finale Built-in GPO (I say FinGPO) since Finale2006 is not really an AU (or VST on Win) host. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?
On 02 Aug 2005, at 9:40 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Darcy James Argue / 2005/08/02 / 12:40 PM wrote: so use AU! It's a huge improvement over GPO Studio. Not to nitpicking but just to be technically correct, I think it is less confusing to say GPO Studio vs Finale Built-in GPO (I say FinGPO) since Finale2006 is not really an AU (or VST on Win) host. But Hiro, GPO Finale Edition is not the same thing as GPO Full, and yet both work as AU/VST plugins instead of having to go through GPO Studio. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
