RE: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Jon Berndt]

> > > ..hell no!  Point these assholes to any good Islamic site to show'em
> > >  how these Religious Righteous Spammers Errs as humanoids.
> > 
> > You should not generalize,
> 
> ..hell yeah, you're right, what I meant was any good Islamic shows how
> most people are "primitive muslims who are nearly there", and advocates
> ...

This thread reached its useful end-of-life around 30 posts ago. Can we let it 
die?

Please?

Jon


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:44:50 +, Lee wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Thursday 20 January 2005 17:03, Jon Stockill wrote:
> > Dave Martin wrote:
> > > And anyway, everyone knows how to get to heaven; just keep
> > > pulling up! :-P
> >
> > Downloading Lee's Canberra model first may help :-)
> 
> I don't think it quite reaches it's altitude performance yet 

..who sez that isn't correct?  ;o)
http://www.rowanatkinson.org/devil_sketch.htm

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:08:16 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> 
> > ..hell no!  Point these assholes to any good Islamic site to show'em
> >  how these Religious Righteous Spammers Errs as humanoids.
> 
> You should not generalize,

..hell yeah, you're right, what I meant was any good Islamic shows how
most people are "primitive muslims who are nearly there", and advocates
science and education rather than Osama's and George's return to the
Dark Ages.  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Martin Spott]

Paul Surgeon wrote:

> A simple list of direct links will suffice in my opinion and be a lot easier 
> to autogenerate from a script.

I created my FTP mirror to comply with the directory structure of the
primary FTP site, so I'm fine with such a list,

Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Christian Mayer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Erik Hofman schrieb:
> Christian Mayer wrote:
> 
>> As religions differ greatly around the globe (even in the countries
>> themselfes) there'll people who helped with their work that have their
>> belive at least not represented (and probably even are offended by the
>> content)
> 
> 
> It almost makes me want to some citations from James Bond (as described
> by his godfather Ian Fleming) and the holy spirit (shaken not stirred)
> which undoubtedly will be the next religious trend due to the
> spectacular ways he hes been saving the world.

LOL!!!

CU,
Christian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFB8MtxlhWtxOxWNFcRArlDAJ9aAQjKvTp94uFff69iCYteC/zNdACfWLD+
WPGBEjB9oLtBs5yHuFfDkR4=
=8PGn
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Paul Surgeon]

On Friday, 21 January 2005 00:28, Martin Spott wrote:
> Paul Surgeon wrote:
> > Can't we have direct links to the files on the mirrors much like other
> > download sites?
>
> A few years ago the idea of a round-robin algorithm on the download
> page. Maybe it's time to reanimate this topic,
>
> Martin.

Will the algorithm check the user limit and how many users are connected to a  
server before serving up the URL?
There's no point in serving up a full server is there?

A simple list of direct links will suffice in my opinion and be a lot easier 
to autogenerate from a script.

Paul

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Josh Babcock]

Curtis L. Olson wrote:
Lee Elliott wrote:
BTW, I've had some problems downloading a/c from the FG d/l page.  
Eventually I manage to get them but it needs a few attempts.

Could this be due to the number of ftp users allowed?
 

Yes, most likely.  I need to come up with a reasonably 
easy/compact/maintainable way to expose our mirrors directly so people 
don't have to wind their way through the mirror directory structure 
themselves to find what they need on the mirrors.

Regards,
Curt.
You could serve the stuff out over HTTP with a web page in front of it and then 
mirror that.  Or, for mirrors that can't or won't serve files over HTTP, 
flightgear.org could host HTTP front ends for the mirrored FTP sites.  Someone 
would have to write a script to crawl the FTP site, build the page, and spit out 
the versions for each mirror.
Not sure how sane/feasible these ideas are.

Josh
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Martin Spott]

Paul Surgeon wrote:

> Can't we have direct links to the files on the mirrors much like other 
> download sites?

A few years ago the idea of a round-robin algorithm on the download
page. Maybe it's time to reanimate this topic,

Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Paul Surgeon]

On Thursday, 20 January 2005 22:42, Curtis L. Olson wrote:
> Yes, most likely.  I need to come up with a reasonably
> easy/compact/maintainable way to expose our mirrors directly so people
> don't have to wind their way through the mirror directory structure
> themselves to find what they need on the mirrors.

I was about to bring this topic up because tonight a user on the IRC channel 
was battling to download the win32 0.9.8 binary.

Can't we have direct links to the files on the mirrors much like other 
download sites?

Example :

Ready to Run Windows Binaries (Updated for v0.9.8)
* Download the self extracting/installing fgsetup-0.9.8.exe.
Mirror 1  :  fgsetup-0.9.8.exe
Mirror 2  :  fgsetup-0.9.8.exe
Mirror 3  :  fgsetup-0.9.8.exe

What about a BitTorrent download option as an alternate download source?
BitTorrent is great for distributing large files efficiently.
I'm more than willing to keep a BitTorrent client running serving up FG files 
(although I have a slow connection) and I'm sure there are others here who 
would do the same.

Paul

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Adam Dershowitz]

Rather than trying to get into a religious discussion with you, which
clearly would be pointless, I will try to explain a different issue.
This simply does not relate to FlightGear!
Yes, we each could build releases with our own personal, religious, ethnic,
or political message, but that is not going to help with FG, but instead is
going to get a bunch of people arguing, as has already been demonstrated.
("Are you going to download the Catholic FlightGear, or the Jewish One, or
the Democratic, or anti-gay version...?").  It will get very silly very
quickly.
There are plenty of places to argue about religion, if you choose.
The problem is that you have chosen to use the work of others as a platform
for your personal beliefs.  While you can do that under the license, it
surely is not the intent of the other people who are working on this.
Many of us find it extremely offensive to have the appearance that our work
is supporting your message, which we disagree with.
So, no, it does not satisfy the issue.  Would you feel uncomfortable if
there were a version of FG that was explicitly anti-Jesus?  Would you be
willing to work on it?  I don't mean this as a threat, but instead to help
you understand what some other people are feeling.
So I am explicitly asking you to please consider removing your personal
message from the package.

-- Adam




> From: Arthur Wiebe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: FlightGear developers discussions 
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:24:38 -0500
> To: FlightGear developers discussions 
> Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build
> 
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> In case you don't know I'm the one who created the distribution in question.
> 
> First of all I believe that the contents of the RTF file should be
> welcomed by everyone, and I also believe they are true.
> But I also realize that it may be harmful to this project by turning
> people away from it.
> 
> I am not a religious person but do believe Jesus Christ meant it when
> he said "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
> creature" and saw this as another potential medium.
> 
> What I will do and am in the process of doing is update the package to
> include this in an About.rtf file:
> 
> "The following contents have been included by Arthur Wiebe and may not
> reflect the views of any of the contributors or developers of the
> FlightGear project."
> 
> O hope that satisfies this issue.
> I also believe the Bible when it says, "If it be possible, as much as
> lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."
> 
> By the way I am also going to fix the permissions issue at the same time.
> 
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:51:08 +0100, Durk Talsma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Curt wrote:
>>> I suggest that we try (as much as possible) to stay focused on building
>>> flight simulators.  If we diverge into a heated discussion of religion
>>> (or politics, or text editors, or operating systems, etc.) we are just
>>> going to hate each other at the end of the day, and we will be much less
>>> effective as a leading open source project.
>> 
>> Martin Spott wrote:
>>> view point, it's just that he chose a medium to carry his opinion that
>>> is totally unacceptable.
>>> 
>> 
>> In my opinion, both arguments clearly express why a religious document should
>> not be part of an official FlightGear distribution. Not even necesarily
>> because it's religious. It's off-topic and therefore unprofessional.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Durk
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> - http://artooro.blogspot.com  (Weblog)
> - http://machcms.sourceforge.net  (MachCMS Project)
> - http://acalproj.sourceforge.net  (Calendar Project)
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Dave Martin]

On Thursday 20 Jan 2005 21:11, Curtis L. Olson wrote:
> If we want to hop on the bandwagon and start stamping things out let's
> go after the big problems like aids, or poverty, or Jennifer Lopez/Ben
> Afflec movies.
>
> Regards,
>
> Curt.

I'll go with all of the above especially the latter ;-)

Dave Martin

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Curtis L. Olson]

Oliver C. wrote:
On Thursday 20 January 2005 19:02, Martin Spott wrote:
 

"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:
   

Let's not be too quick to stamp out people's ability to express their
faith.  The tides of societal whimsy shift very quickly, and if we
tolerate stamping out opposing view points, all too soon you could find
yourself on the loosing end of that battle.
 

Curt, almost everything you write has much sense in the end, but in
this case you are terribly wrong.
Everyone on this list is free - as a human being should be free - to
express his personal opinion (if necessary even on this developer list,
if nobody objects) as long as it is easily obvious to _everyone_
reading this, that it is his very own personal faith. I strongly
believe nobody here intends to stamp on the MacOSX package maintainers
view point, it's just that he chose a medium to carry his opinion that
is totally unacceptable.
I distance myself from the FlightGear project as long as it tolerates
this sort of misuse. Don't get me wrong, I very much tolerate the
_contents_ of the respective text (although I don't share it, but this
is a different story) but I can't accept the way it is being
distributed unter the flag of the FlightGear project.
Cheers,
Martin.
   

I completely agree.
When we accept this, what comes next?
FlightGear packages with inbuild espionage and spam features?
Dialers? FlightGear with inbuild advertisement for cigarettes, drugs and 
cleaning agent?

As a consequence we should create a clean and official Mac package, anyone 
here with a Mac? (I don't have a Mac. :( )
Maybe it also helps to inform sourceforge about this,
do they allow such misuse of their webspace?
 

[ Curt goes off to rummage through the mailman docs to see if he can 
find any kind of content based thread killer ... ]

There are have been a couple intelligent responses here, but the signal 
to noise ratio is dismal.

If we want to hop on the bandwagon and start stamping things out let's 
go after the big problems like aids, or poverty, or Jennifer Lopez/Ben 
Afflec movies.

Regards,
Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Oliver C.]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 19:02, Martin Spott wrote:
> "Curtis L. Olson" wrote:
> > Let's not be too quick to stamp out people's ability to express their
> > faith.  The tides of societal whimsy shift very quickly, and if we
> > tolerate stamping out opposing view points, all too soon you could find
> > yourself on the loosing end of that battle.
>
> Curt, almost everything you write has much sense in the end, but in
> this case you are terribly wrong.
>
> Everyone on this list is free - as a human being should be free - to
> express his personal opinion (if necessary even on this developer list,
> if nobody objects) as long as it is easily obvious to _everyone_
> reading this, that it is his very own personal faith. I strongly
> believe nobody here intends to stamp on the MacOSX package maintainers
> view point, it's just that he chose a medium to carry his opinion that
> is totally unacceptable.
>
> I distance myself from the FlightGear project as long as it tolerates
> this sort of misuse. Don't get me wrong, I very much tolerate the
> _contents_ of the respective text (although I don't share it, but this
> is a different story) but I can't accept the way it is being
> distributed unter the flag of the FlightGear project.
>
> Cheers,
>  Martin.

I completely agree.

When we accept this, what comes next?

FlightGear packages with inbuild espionage and spam features?
Dialers? FlightGear with inbuild advertisement for cigarettes, drugs and 
cleaning agent?


As a consequence we should create a clean and official Mac package, anyone 
here with a Mac? (I don't have a Mac. :( )
Maybe it also helps to inform sourceforge about this,
do they allow such misuse of their webspace?


Best Regards,
 Oliver C.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Martin Spott]

Arthur Wiebe wrote:

> What I will do and am in the process of doing is update the package to
> include this in an About.rtf file:
> 
> "The following contents have been included by Arthur Wiebe and may not
> reflect the views of any of the contributors or developers of the
> FlightGear project."
> 
> O hope that satisfies this issue.

No, you definitely took the wrong track.
You are free to create a _personal_ web page and place your statement
there, create a newspaper and sell it to the world. But don't - _never_
- abuse someone else's label to spread _your_ very personal attitude,
especially no package or web page labeled as "FlightGear ".

I'm sure everyone is happy to include your package into the
'official' FlightGear distribution if you simply remove that file.
Otherwise I'm pretty sure someone else will be able to step on that
plate and build such a package,

Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Andy Ross]

Curtis L. Olson wrote:
> Let's not be too quick to stamp out people's ability to express
> their faith.  The tides of societal whimsy shift very quickly, and
> if we tolerate stamping out opposing view points, all too soon you
> could find yourself on the loosing end of that battle.

Let's also be mindful of the sin of using other people's work to
express a faith they don't hold.

Now, I'm not one to get worked up over religious debates.  As a
garden-variety modern atheist, I'm generally happy to let other folks
think whatever they want to.  I don't argue against religion.  I don't
fear it or reject it.  I don't mind attending weddings at churches,
and even bow my head during prayer out of politeness.  Many of my best
friends and big chunks of my family are christians, and they're all
great people.

That said, knowing that someone downloading FlightGear gets this
document dropped next to it gives me the willies.  I'm fine if Arthur
wants to spread The Word himself.  I'm very much *not* fine with him
stapling the pamphlet to a copy of YASim and Nasal.

FlightGear belongs to all of us.  It shouldn't be a vehicle for views
that aren't shared by the community as a whole.  While the GPL allows
Arthur to distribute FlightGear any way he wants, including this file
is neither polite nor appropriate.

Andy

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Curtis L. Olson]

Lee Elliott wrote:
BTW, I've had some problems downloading a/c from the FG d/l page.  
Eventually I manage to get them but it needs a few attempts.

Could this be due to the number of ftp users allowed?
 

Yes, most likely.  I need to come up with a reasonably 
easy/compact/maintainable way to expose our mirrors directly so people 
don't have to wind their way through the mirror directory structure 
themselves to find what they need on the mirrors.

Regards,
Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Frederic Bouvier]

Paul Surgeon a écrit :
Whether you want to remove the file or not is your choice but just consider 
for a moment that a lot of people have put work into FG and they don't 
necessarily share the same beliefs. You may possibly be offending them by 
re-distributing their hard work with your beliefs.
If I was a *radical* Muslim I would probably come and burn your house 
down.  ;-)
 

And the *radical* christian will ...  you already know the story. It 
lasts for thousands years now.

Very good argument Paul.
-Fred

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Lee Elliott]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 20:16, Andy Ross wrote:
> Lee Elliott wrote:
> > I don't think it quite reaches it's altitude performance yet
> > (I've been thinking about a PR version sometime).  However,
> > I once got the YF-23 > 200,000 ft (and still climbing at a
> > fair lick).
>
> YASim's atmosphere model table stops at FL620.  It doesn't try
> to extrapolate and just clamps the air density outside that
> range, so you were cheating badly by getting to that altitude.
> :)
>
> Andy

Ta for that.  IIRC the reduction in rate of climb did seem to 
level out at some point - at FL620 it would seem.

Although I don't know the YF-23's max ceiling I'd expect it to be 
> 62,000 ft so perhaps this problem with the fdm isn't quite as 
bad as I thought it was.

At the time I was using a 'mach-climb' hold AP function.  
Basically, this tries to get the max rate of climb while 
maintaining a set mach speed by increasing the target rate of 
climb when the target mach is exceeded in a sort of feed-back 
loop.  It seems to work well if it's engaged while the a/c is 
below the target mach but it's not so good if the a/c is already 
travelling at the target mach.

Something to look into some day...

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Lee Elliott]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 20:20, Lee Elliott wrote:
> On Thursday 20 January 2005 20:04, Dave Martin wrote:
> > On Thursday 20 Jan 2005 19:44, Lee Elliott wrote:
> > > On Thursday 20 January 2005 17:03, Jon Stockill wrote:
> > > > Downloading Lee's Canberra model first may help :-)
> > >
> > > I don't think it quite reaches it's altitude performance
> > > yet (I've been thinking about a PR version sometime). 
> > > However, I once got the YF-23 > 200,000 ft (and still
> > > climbing at a fair lick).
> > >
> > > Both fdms still need a lot of work.
> > >
> > > LeeE
> >
> > Is there a 3d model for that Canberra? - If so is there any
> > chance of some eye-candy? :-)
> >
> > Dave Martin
>
> There should be.
>
> I'm just downloading the version from the FG downloads page
> now and I'll have a quick look at it.
>
> LeeE

Yep, there's a 3d model in the archive.

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Arthur Wiebe]

All arguments are currently being processed internally (As in my
head.) Hopefully tomorrow will bring a peaceful resolution.

Currently, the distro is being updated and if you would like to
contact me, send me a direct email.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:12:57 -, Jim Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Arthur Wiebe said:
> 
> > I am not a religious person but do believe Jesus Christ meant it when
> > he said "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
> > creature" and saw this as another potential medium.
> 
> Did he also say "Go ye into the world and tell people you aren't religious
> when you are"?  Don't be bashful about your beliefs, but
Religious:
   1.  Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
   2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious text.
   3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.

n. pl. religious
A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk. 

I am religious if you see it as the first definition, but there are
many ways religion is interpreted.
I am not a Catholic or "Christian", but a believer in Jesus Christ. I
do not follow a religion but the word of God which is the Bible, which
is not a religion but a faith.
> 
> >
> > What I will do and am in the process of doing is update the package to
> > include this in an About.rtf file:
> >
> > "The following contents have been included by Arthur Wiebe and may not
> > reflect the views of any of the contributors or developers of the
> > FlightGear project."
> >
> > O hope that satisfies this issue.
> 
> ..do be mindful of the diversity here, even if you believe you are right and
> just want to help others.  This isn't the right way to do it.  Any sort of
> religious statement or even political statement would be received in a similar
> fashion.  The flightgear project is really just about flight simulation and
> that is all that makes this a community.  Would it be ok to just remove the
> message from the distribution?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jim

> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Lee Elliott]

BTW, I've had some problems downloading a/c from the FG d/l page.  
Eventually I manage to get them but it needs a few attempts.

Could this be due to the number of ftp users allowed?

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Paul Surgeon]

On Thursday, 20 January 2005 21:24, Arthur Wiebe wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> In case you don't know I'm the one who created the distribution in
> question.
>
> First of all I believe that the contents of the RTF file should be
> welcomed by everyone, and I also believe they are true.
> But I also realize that it may be harmful to this project by turning
> people away from it.
>
> I am not a religious person but do believe Jesus Christ meant it when
> he said "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
> creature" and saw this as another potential medium.
>
> What I will do and am in the process of doing is update the package to
> include this in an About.rtf file:
>
> "The following contents have been included by Arthur Wiebe and may not
> reflect the views of any of the contributors or developers of the
> FlightGear project."
>
> O hope that satisfies this issue.
> I also believe the Bible when it says, "If it be possible, as much as
> lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."
>
> By the way I am also going to fix the permissions issue at the same time.

Arthur,

I share the same beliefs as you do but I also feel that there are times and 
places which are not appropriate to share ones faith.

For instance in an office environment where your employer is paying you to do 
a job - not saving souls. That would be stealing from your employer unless it 
was during a lunch break.

Or for instance where people do not wish to hear your beliefs. Let people 
rather ask you instead of shoving it in their face. That only serves to 
alienate people instead of drawing them to Christ.

When one reads the gospels you see in nearly every account that the gospel was 
preached to those who came on their own accord to listen. People went out to 
hear John the baptist yelling "Repent!" in the desert - John didn't go around  
bashing people doors down or dropping pamphlets in people's mail boxes.
The same with Jesus - people came to him because he had something to offer.
The few times he was confrontational was when he was challenging the religious 
leaders of the time for their hypocrisy.
God gave Adam and Eve a free will to choose between good and evil and I 
certainly think he expects us to treat others the same way. That doesn't mean 
you have to respect what they believe but rather their choice to believe what 
they want to.

I can't tell you how you should reach out to the lost around you but I do 
believe one should always do so in a PERSONAL capacity, always respecting the 
beliefs of those around you even if you think they are wrong and are on the 
way to hell.

Whether you want to remove the file or not is your choice but just consider 
for a moment that a lot of people have put work into FG and they don't 
necessarily share the same beliefs. You may possibly be offending them by 
re-distributing their hard work with your beliefs.
If I was a *radical* Muslim I would probably come and burn your house 
down.  ;-)

Paul

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Lee Elliott]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 20:04, Dave Martin wrote:
> On Thursday 20 Jan 2005 19:44, Lee Elliott wrote:
> > On Thursday 20 January 2005 17:03, Jon Stockill wrote:
> > > Downloading Lee's Canberra model first may help :-)
> >
> > I don't think it quite reaches it's altitude performance yet
> > (I've been thinking about a PR version sometime).  However,
> > I once got the YF-23 > 200,000 ft (and still climbing at a
> > fair lick).
> >
> > Both fdms still need a lot of work.
> >
> > LeeE
>
> Is there a 3d model for that Canberra? - If so is there any
> chance of some eye-candy? :-)
>
> Dave Martin

There should be.

I'm just downloading the version from the FG downloads page now 
and I'll have a quick look at it.

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Andy Ross]

Lee Elliott wrote:
> I don't think it quite reaches it's altitude performance yet (I've
> been thinking about a PR version sometime).  However, I once got the
> YF-23 > 200,000 ft (and still climbing at a fair lick).

YASim's atmosphere model table stops at FL620.  It doesn't try to
extrapolate and just clamps the air density outside that range, so you
were cheating badly by getting to that altitude. :)

Andy

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Jim Wilson]

Arthur Wiebe said:

> I am not a religious person but do believe Jesus Christ meant it when
> he said "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
> creature" and saw this as another potential medium.

Did he also say "Go ye into the world and tell people you aren't religious
when you are"?  Don't be bashful about your beliefs, but

> 
> What I will do and am in the process of doing is update the package to
> include this in an About.rtf file:
> 
> "The following contents have been included by Arthur Wiebe and may not
> reflect the views of any of the contributors or developers of the
> FlightGear project."
> 
> O hope that satisfies this issue.

..do be mindful of the diversity here, even if you believe you are right and
just want to help others.  This isn't the right way to do it.  Any sort of
religious statement or even political statement would be received in a similar
fashion.  The flightgear project is really just about flight simulation and
that is all that makes this a community.  Would it be ok to just remove the
message from the distribution?

Best,

Jim



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Dave Martin]

On Thursday 20 Jan 2005 19:44, Lee Elliott wrote:
> On Thursday 20 January 2005 17:03, Jon Stockill wrote:

> > Downloading Lee's Canberra model first may help :-)
>
> I don't think it quite reaches it's altitude performance yet
> (I've been thinking about a PR version sometime).  However, I
> once got the YF-23 > 200,000 ft (and still climbing at a fair
> lick).
>
> Both fdms still need a lot of work.
>
> LeeE

Is there a 3d model for that Canberra? - If so is there any chance of some 
eye-candy? :-)

Dave Martin

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Lee Elliott]

On Thursday 20 January 2005 17:03, Jon Stockill wrote:
> Dave Martin wrote:
> > And anyway, everyone knows how to get to heaven; just keep
> > pulling up! :-P
>
> Downloading Lee's Canberra model first may help :-)

I don't think it quite reaches it's altitude performance yet 
(I've been thinking about a PR version sometime).  However, I 
once got the YF-23 > 200,000 ft (and still climbing at a fair 
lick).

Both fdms still need a lot of work.

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Dave Martin]

On Thursday 20 Jan 2005 19:24, Arthur Wiebe wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> In case you don't know I'm the one who created the distribution in
> question.
>
> First of all I believe that the contents of the RTF file should be
> welcomed by everyone, and I also believe they are true.

You have every right to believe that, but not to expect it.

> But I also realize that it may be harmful to this project by turning
> people away from it.
>
> What I will do and am in the process of doing is update the package to
> include this in an About.rtf file:
>
> "The following contents have been included by Arthur Wiebe and may not
> reflect the views of any of the contributors or developers of the
> FlightGear project."
>
> O hope that satisfies this issue.

My personal opinion is that if you must include such a file, it would be 
better if you included that text at the start of the file itself.

However, I do not see that there is any place for religious rhetoric in a 
package which I'm sure we would all be happy for all of the religions of the 
world to download and enjoy.

I have personal reservations about any work that I provide being included in a 
package which includes religious views. As I licence anything I contribute 
here under the GPL I have no say in this matter.

I can only hope to distance myself from such potentially polar views.

Dave Martin








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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Arthur Wiebe]

Hi Everyone,

In case you don't know I'm the one who created the distribution in question.

First of all I believe that the contents of the RTF file should be
welcomed by everyone, and I also believe they are true.
But I also realize that it may be harmful to this project by turning
people away from it.

I am not a religious person but do believe Jesus Christ meant it when
he said "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every
creature" and saw this as another potential medium.

What I will do and am in the process of doing is update the package to
include this in an About.rtf file:

"The following contents have been included by Arthur Wiebe and may not
reflect the views of any of the contributors or developers of the
FlightGear project."

O hope that satisfies this issue.
I also believe the Bible when it says, "If it be possible, as much as
lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

By the way I am also going to fix the permissions issue at the same time.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:51:08 +0100, Durk Talsma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Curt wrote:
> >I suggest that we try (as much as possible) to stay focused on building
> >flight simulators.  If we diverge into a heated discussion of religion
> >(or politics, or text editors, or operating systems, etc.) we are just
> >going to hate each other at the end of the day, and we will be much less
> >effective as a leading open source project.
> 
> Martin Spott wrote:
> > view point, it's just that he chose a medium to carry his opinion that
> > is totally unacceptable.
> >
> 
> In my opinion, both arguments clearly express why a religious document should
> not be part of an official FlightGear distribution. Not even necesarily
> because it's religious. It's off-topic and therefore unprofessional.
> 
> Cheers,
> Durk
> 
> 
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-- 

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Durk Talsma]

Curt wrote:
>I suggest that we try (as much as possible) to stay focused on building 
>flight simulators.  If we diverge into a heated discussion of religion 
>(or politics, or text editors, or operating systems, etc.) we are just 
>going to hate each other at the end of the day, and we will be much less 
>effective as a leading open source project.

Martin Spott wrote:
> view point, it's just that he chose a medium to carry his opinion that
> is totally unacceptable.
>

In my opinion, both arguments clearly express why a religious document should 
not be part of an official FlightGear distribution. Not even necesarily 
because it's religious. It's off-topic and therefore unprofessional.

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Martin Spott]

Arnt Karlsen wrote:

> ..hell no!  Point these assholes to any good Islamic site to show'em 
> how these Religious Righteous Spammers Errs as humanoids.

You should not generalize,

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Dave Martin]

On Thursday 20 Jan 2005 17:52, Erik Hofman wrote:

> It almost makes me want to some citations from James Bond (as described
> by his godfather Ian Fleming) and the holy spirit (shaken not stirred)
> which undoubtedly will be the next religious trend due to the
> spectacular ways he hes been saving the world.
>
> But then again ...
>
> Erik

That reminds me; I must get a technical drawing of the Wallace Autogyro - 
thanks for that :-)

Dave Martin

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Martin Spott]

From: Martin Spott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build
Newsgroups: list.flightgear-devel
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: 
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990927 ("Nine While Nine") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4m))

"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:

> Let's not be too quick to stamp out people's ability to express their 
> faith.  The tides of societal whimsy shift very quickly, and if we 
> tolerate stamping out opposing view points, all too soon you could find 
> yourself on the loosing end of that battle.

Curt, almost everything you write has much sense in the end, but in
this case you are terribly wrong.

Everyone on this list is free - as a human being should be free - to
express his personal opinion (if necessary even on this developer list,
if nobody objects) as long as it is easily obvious to _everyone_
reading this, that it is his very own personal faith. I strongly
believe nobody here intends to stamp on the MacOSX package maintainers
view point, it's just that he chose a medium to carry his opinion that
is totally unacceptable.

I distance myself from the FlightGear project as long as it tolerates
this sort of misuse. Don't get me wrong, I very much tolerate the
_contents_ of the respective text (although I don't share it, but this
is a different story) but I can't accept the way it is being
distributed unter the flag of the FlightGear project.

Cheers,
Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Erik Hofman]

Christian Mayer wrote:
As religions differ greatly around the globe (even in the countries
themselfes) there'll people who helped with their work that have their
belive at least not represented (and probably even are offended by the
content)
It almost makes me want to some citations from James Bond (as described 
by his godfather Ian Fleming) and the holy spirit (shaken not stirred) 
which undoubtedly will be the next religious trend due to the 
spectacular ways he hes been saving the world.

But then again ...
Erik
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:43:49 +, Christian wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>  Hi,
> 
>  The Mac OS X build of FlightGear 0.9.8, as available from  
>    mg?  download>, contains a file called 'How to Get to Heaven.rtf', at

..huh???

>  the   root level (beside the OpenAL installer package and the
>  FlightGear   application directory), with bible quotes and
>  essentially religious   proselytizing. Here's a screenshot of the Mac
>  OS X Finder window for   the FlightGear-09.8 disk image:
> 
> 
> [fg098.jpg  image/jpeg (26830 bytes)]
> [text/plain (174 bytes)]
> 
> 
>  Attached, you'll find a copy of the 'How to Get to Heaven.rtf' file 
>  itself:
> 
> 
> 
> [How to Get to Heaven.rtf  application/rtf (3698 bytes)]
> [text/plain (958 bytes)]
> 
> 
>  Is it really a good idea to have essentially religious propaganda 
>  shipped in the semi-official build of FlightGear for Mac OS X? 

..hell no!  Point these assholes to any good Islamic site to show'em 
how these Religious Righteous Spammers Errs as humanoids.

>  In particular, I find this somewhat perplexing, considering the
>  amount of  discussion regarding commercial advertisements placed on
>  the FlightGear  web site - and those ads would at least have been a)
>  somewhat relevant  to FlightGear, and b) brought in some revenue to
>  support the FlightGear  effort itself, whereas this religious message
>  has neither been  discussed (to my recollection), nor does it have
>  anything to do with  flight simulators in general or FlightGear in
>  particular, nor does it  in any way support the project.
> 
>  Or to put is more succinctly: when I downloaded FlightGear and got an
>  unwelcome religious pamphlet thrown in my face, I got a seriously
>  bad taste in my mouth.

..aye, yeah.  Sabotage?  Or a troll?   Thanks anyway, Christian.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Christian Mayer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Christian Brunschen schrieb:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The Mac OS X build of FlightGear 0.9.8, as available from 
>  download>, contains a file called 'How to Get to Heaven.rtf', at the 
> root level (beside the OpenAL installer package and the FlightGear 
> application directory), with bible quotes and essentially religious 
> proselytizing. Here's a screenshot of the Mac OS X Finder window for 
> the FlightGear-09.8 disk image:

If that's the case I'm *strictly* against it.

Religion is an even much more problematic field than politics (which
already creates bad flame wars). People easily get upset when they are
presented by "the truth", which isn't their truth they believe in.

So, IMO, this is against the spirit (doesn't that word sound funny in
this context?) of FGFS.

Just two quotes from the "Introduction" page:

- - It is being developed through the gracious contributions of source
  code and spare time by many talented people from around the globe.

- - There are a wide range of people interested and participating in this
  project. This is truly a global effort with contributors from just
  about every continent.


As religions differ greatly around the globe (even in the countries
themselfes) there'll people who helped with their work that have their
belive at least not represented (and probably even are offended by the
content)


CU,
Christian

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFB7+cQlhWtxOxWNFcRAvkSAKCnwDx4oyxcTK6uBaecNmYipwE6ZwCeKrBH
yIbz1BI27yzyw/ufNaIzbwM=
=BbVC
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Curtis L. Olson]

Martin Spott wrote:
Christian Brunschen wrote:
 

Or to put is more succinctly: when I downloaded FlightGear and got an 
unwelcome religious pamphlet thrown in my face, I got a seriously bad 
taste in my mouth.
   

Indeed, in my opinion the FlightGear community can't tolerate such
action,
 

We need to be a little careful here.  Some people and societies are 
willing to tolerate all manner of ... well ... let's just call it 
goofiness, but are very intolerant of specific view points.

I suggest that we try (as much as possible) to stay focused on building 
flight simulators.  If we diverge into a heated discussion of religion 
(or politics, or text editors, or operating systems, etc.) we are just 
going to hate each other at the end of the day, and we will be much less 
effective as a leading open source project.

Let's not be too quick to stamp out people's ability to express their 
faith.  The tides of societal whimsy shift very quickly, and if we 
tolerate stamping out opposing view points, all too soon you could find 
yourself on the loosing end of that battle.

I vote that we move on, and if you have a problem with the Mac 
packaging, perhaps you could discuss it directly (off list) with the 
package maintainer.

Regards,
Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Frederic Bouvier]

Quoting Martin Spott:

> Christian Brunschen wrote:
>
> > Or to put is more succinctly: when I downloaded FlightGear and got an
> > unwelcome religious pamphlet thrown in my face, I got a seriously bad
> > taste in my mouth.
>
> Indeed, in my opinion the FlightGear community can't tolerate such
> action,

I am just shocked that I could be associated with this.

-Fred

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Martin Spott]

Christian Brunschen wrote:

> Or to put is more succinctly: when I downloaded FlightGear and got an 
> unwelcome religious pamphlet thrown in my face, I got a seriously bad 
> taste in my mouth.

Indeed, in my opinion the FlightGear community can't tolerate such
action,

Martin.
-- 
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--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Jon Stockill]

Dave Martin wrote:
And anyway, everyone knows how to get to heaven; just keep pulling up! :-P
Downloading Lee's Canberra model first may help :-)
--
Jon Stockill
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear 0.9.8, Mac OS X build

[Dave Martin]

On Thursday 20 Jan 2005 16:43, Christian Brunschen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The Mac OS X build of FlightGear 0.9.8, as available from
>  download>, contains a file called 'How to Get to Heaven.rtf', at the
> root level (beside the OpenAL installer package and the FlightGear
> application directory), with bible quotes and essentially religious
> proselytizing. Here's a screenshot of the Mac OS X Finder window for
> the FlightGear-09.8 disk image:

I find it rather bizarre if anything. Although third party distributions of FG 
are compiled / packaged independently I can see how it leave a 'bad taste' to 
have someones unrelated morals not neccesarily *inflicted* but certainly 
presented to you.

Technically it could be called 'spam' as it is unsolicited ie: You wanted 
FlightGear for OSX - You were given FlightGear for OSX + religious spam.

And anyway, everyone knows how to get to heaven; just keep pulling up! :-P

Dave Martin.

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